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FOR PUBLIC DOMAIN ETEXTS*Ver.06/12/01*END* +[Portions of this header are copyright (C) 2001 by Michael S. Hart +and may be reprinted only when these Etexts are free of all fees.] +[Project Gutenberg is a TradeMark and may not be used in any sales +of Project Gutenberg Etexts or other materials be they hardware or +software or any other related product without express permission.] + + + + + +Second Shetland Truck System Report + +by William Guthrie + + + + +NOTES 1. + +Truck - The payment of wages otherwise than in money, the +system or practice of such a payment. References/Edinburgh +enquiry/book/archives/size of original doc. OED. + +The Truck Commission Enquiry, 1872, is a major social history +source the Shetland Islands in the 19th century. It followed on +from an existing Truck Commission enquiry in 1871, after evidence +from Shetland was heard in Edinburgh. 45,125 questions covered +the rest of the country, 17,070 for Shetland. Despite this effort, little +effect immediately resulted in Shetland from legislation following +on the national enquiry. + +References +George W. Hilton, The Truck System, including a History of the +British Truck Acts, 1465-1960, +W. Heffer and Sons, Ltd., Cambridge, 1960. + +Hance D. Smith, Introduction (to facsimile reprint of the Report +of the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the Truck System +(Shetland), Sandwick, 1978. + +Hance D. Smith, Shetland Life and Trade, 1550-1914, John Donald +Publishers Ltd., Edinburgh, 1984, ISBN 0859761037. + +For further queries, contact Shetland.archives@sic.shetland.gov.uk. + +NOTES 2. + +The original documents come in a double column, small print format. +Since it isn't possible, or even desirable to reproduce that here, some +alterations have been made. Page numbers are indicated within square +brackets - [Page x]. Tables, which were in even smaller print, have +also been altered somewhat where necessary. In particular, Table I-IV +in the Report section have been split up for ease of use, and put after, +rather than in the middle of the section referring to them. The use of +italics has been indicated by means of the following <italics>. + +The most obvious typographical errors have been removed, but otherwise +the text is untouched. However, the spelling of place names and personal +names has altered a bit over the years, and the items below cover most of +the obvious problems, as well as some misapprehensions and errors. + +Blanch- +now Blance. + +ca'in/caain whales- +alternative spellings of the same word - for Pilot Whale, usually. + +Clunas- +now usually Cluness. + +Colafirth- +now Collafirth. + +Coningsburgh- +now Cunningsburgh. + +Cumlywick- +now Cumlewick. + +Cunningster- +now Cunnister. + +Dalzell- +alternatively Dalziel, Dalyell, Deyell, and even Yell. + +Dunrosness- +now Dunrossness. + +Edmonston/Edmonstone- +now Edmondston. + +Eskerness- +probably Eshaness. + +Exter, Janet- +a misapprehension - actual name unknown but possibly +Janet Inkster. + +Fetler- +now Fetlar. + +Fiedeland- +now Fethaland. + +Flaus/Flawes/Flaws- +alternative spellings of the same name now usually +Flaws. + +Garrioch/Garriock/Garrick- +can be alternative spellings of the same name. + +ghive/geo/gio- +gio - an inlet. + +Goudie/Gaudie- +now Goudie. + +Hancliffe- +probably Hangcliff. + +Harra- +now Herra. + +Hildesha- +now Hildasay, an island. + +Hillyar/Hillyard- +probably Heylor. + +Humphray/Humphrey/Umphray- +can be alternative spellings of the same name. + +Jameson/Jamieson- +now usually Jamieson. + +Lasetter- +now Lusetter. + +Lebidden- +now Leabitten. + +Leisk/Leask- +alternative spellings of the same name. + +Lesslie/Leslie- +alternative spellings of the same name. + +Lingord- +now Lingarth. + +Luija- +probably Linga, an island. + +Malcolmson/Malcomson- +now usually Malcolmson. + +Manaster- +prob. Mangaster. + +Mavisgrind- +now Mavis Grind. + +Nicholson- +now usually Nicolson. + +North Mavine/Northmaven- +now Northmavine. + +Rennesta- +probably Ringasta. + +Roenessvoe- +now Ronas Voe. + +Satter- +now Setter. + +scatthold/scattales/scattholes- +now scattald. + +scaups/scaaps- +alternative spellings of the same word, a bed of +shellfish on the sea bottom. + +Simbister- +now Symbister. + +Stenness- +now Stennes. + +Sullem/Sullam- +now Sullom. + +Thomason/Thomson/Thompson- +alternative spellings of the same name. + +Trosswick- +now Troswick. + +Urrafirth- +now Urafirth. + +Usiness- +prob. Ustaness. + +Vinsgarth- +now Veensgarth. + +Waterbru- +now Waterbrough. + +West Sandwick- +now Westsandwick. + + + +Angus Johnson, May, 2001. + + + + +[Page 1 rpt.] +REPORT. +_______ + +TO THE RIGHT HONOURABLE HENRY AUSTEN BRUCE, ONE OF HER +MAJESTY'S PRINCIPAL SECRETARIES OF STATE. + + SIR, +THE Report on the Truck System, presented to Parliament in 1871, +stated that the Commissioners, Messrs. Bowen and Sellar, had +received information from four witnesses with regard to Shetland, +'tending to show that the existence of Truck in an oppressive form +is general in the staple trades of the islands'. The Commissioners +in their Report call attention to this evidence, and add: 'Time +would not allow of a local inquiry at Shetland, nor can an inquiry +be adequately conducted into the Truck which is alleged to prevail +there otherwise than upon the spot. No opinion accordingly is +offered either as to the extent of, or the remedy for, the alleged +evils; but the necessity of some investigation by Her Majesty's +Government into the condition of these islands seems made out.' + +Having been appointed, by a warrant under your hand, dated Dec. +23, 1871, one of the Commissioners under the Truck Commission +Act, 1870, in room of Mr. Bowen, I was directed to proceed to +Shetland and institute an inquiry there under that Act. I inquired +respecting the matters embraced under the instructions of the Act, +and I have now to report as follows:- + +I went to Shetland at the beginning of the year, a time when the +seafaring people of the country are generally at their homes, and +I at once began to take evidence with regard to the system of +barter or truck which prevails in various trades and industries in +these islands. Evidence was taken respecting the hosiery or +knitting trade, in which a very large proportion of the women of +the country are engaged. Evidence was also taken with regard to +the fishing trade, which in its different branches affords +employment for part of the year to the whole of the male +population, with few exceptions. With regard to the manner +in which sales of farm stock and produce are transacted, rents are +paid, and land is held in Shetland, information has also been +obtained, without which it appeared to be impossible to form a +correct idea of the condition of the people, and the way in which +barter or truck presents itself as an inseparable element of their +daily life and habits. A large amount of evidence was also pressed +upon me with regard to the engagement of seamen at Lerwick for +sealing and whaling voyages to Greenland and Davis Straits. + +Sittings for the purpose of taking evidence were held at Lerwick, +Brae (Delting), Hillswick (Northmaven), Mid Yell, Balta Sound +(Unst), Boddam (Dunrossness), and Scalloway, in Shetland. I +visited Kirkwall, in Orkney, for the purpose of examining certain +witnesses now residing there with regard to the condition of Fair +Island, which was inaccessible at the time of my journey. Sittings +were also held in Edinburgh for the examination of a few +witnesses residing there. + +Public notice by printed bills was given of all meetings, and +circulars were also sent to all clergymen, schoolmasters, and +landed proprietors, and to all persons in the fishcuring and hosiery +trades. Evidence was received from almost all who tendered it, +from a large number of persons suggested or put forward by +employers of labour and purchasers of hosiery goods and fish, and +from many witnesses who were selected and cited. + +________________________ + +GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF SHETLAND. + +The Shetland Islands are upwards of a hundred in number, +varying in size from the Mainland, which is about seventy miles in +length and thirty at its greatest breadth, to small rocks not even +affording pasturage to sheep. The outlines of all the islands, as +shown on the accompanying map are very irregular, long bays or +voes indenting them so deeply that no point is more than three +miles from the sea. The country is hilly, but none of the [Page 2 +rpt.] hills are very lofty. Twenty-eight of the islands are inhabited; +some of the smaller islands containing only two, or in some cases +only one family. The population in 1861 was 31,670, viz. 18,617 +females, and 13,053 males. The population in 1871 was 31,605, +viz. 18,525 females, and 13,080 males. The census is taken at a +time of the year when many men who are sailors in the merchant +service are absent from their homes, which they visit once a year +or oftener. At the last census there were 6,494 families, 5,740 +inhabited houses, 220 vacant houses, and 10 houses building. + +The Agricultural Returns for Great Britain for 1871 state the +number of occupiers of land in Shetland, from whom returns +have been obtained, at 3992, occupying on an average thirteen +acres each. The total acreage under all kinds of crops, bare, +fallow, and grass, is given as 50,454 acres in 1870, and 50,720 in +1871, of which, in the latter year, 11,626 acres were under corn +crops, 3,493 under green crops (2,909 being potatoes), 522 under +clover and grasses under rotation, and 33,227 permanent pasture, +meadow, or grass not broken up in rotation, exclusive of heath +or mountain land. The total number of horses returned to the +Statistical Department, as on 25th June 1871, was 5,354; of cattle +21,735; of sheep, 86,834; and of pigs, 5,251. +_________________ + +SOCIAL STATE. + +The 'toons,' or townships, in which the peasantry of Shetland +live, are generally situated along the margins of the voes, or +far-stretching inland bays which intersect the country; and +although in some districts they extend into the valleys running into +the interior, they are almost always within a short distance from +the sea. It is natural, therefore, that the Shetlander should be a +fisherman or a sailor; and for two centuries it appears that he has +generally combined the occupations of farming and fishing. The +following description of the rural polity of Shetland, taken from +Dr. Arthur Edmonstone's View of the Ancient and Present State of +the Zetland Islands (2 vols. 8vo, Edin. 1809), is for the most part +applicable at the present day. + +'The enclosed land in Zetland is divided into what are called +merks and ures. A merk, it is said, should contain 1600 square +fathoms, and an ure is the eighth part of a merk; but the merks are +everywhere of unequal dimensions, and scarcely two are of the +same size. The oldest rentals state the number of merks to be +about 13,500, and those of the present time make them no more. +A considerable portion, however, of common has been enclosed +and cultivated since the appearance of the first rentals, although +not included in them. When a part of the common is enclosed and +farmed, the enclosure is called an outset; but the outsets are never +included in the numeration of merks of rental land. From these +circumstances it is very difficult to ascertain the actual quantity of +cultivated ground in Zetland. + + 'The enclosures are made, generally, in the neighbourhood of +the sea, and contain from 4 to 70 merks, which are frequently the +property of different heritors, and are always subdivided among +several tenants. Such place is called a town or a room, and each +has a particular name. + +'The uncultivated ground outside of the enclosure is called the +scatthold, and is used for general pasture, and to furnish turf for +firing. Every tenant may rear as many sheep, cattle, or horses, on +the general scatthold attached to the town in which his farm lies as +he can. There is no restriction on this head, whether he rent a +large or a small farm. If there be no moss in the scatthold +contiguous to his farm, the tenant must pay for the privilege to cut +peat in some other common, and this payment is called <hogalif.> +It seldom exceeds 3s. per annum. + +'The kelp shores and the pasture islands are seldom or never +let to the tenant along with the land; these the landholder retains in +his own hands. In some parts of Zetland, particularly in the island +of Unst, the proprietor furnishes the tenant, gratis, with a house, +barn, and stable, which he also keeps in a state of repair. In other +parts of the country this expense is divided between them, but the +chief proportion of it always falls on the landholder. + +'The quantity of land farmed by a tenant varies from 3 to 12 +merks, and sometimes more; but the average number to each +may be taken at 5. In a few instances regular leases are granted, +and some of them for a great number of years; but these are +comparatively rare. In the great majority of cases, nothing more +takes place than a verbal agreement on the part of the tenant to +occupy a farm under certain conditions, for one year only, at the +expiration of which both he and the landholder consider +themselves at perfect liberty to enter on a new engagement .... + +'The rents are paid in cash and various articles of country produce, +such as fish, butter, oil, etc.; and the amount of the rent varies, +according as the tenant has the exclusive disposal of his labour or +agrees to fish to his landholder. In the former case, the probable +profits on the sale of fish and the other articles of produce are +estimated, and the lands are let at their full value. In the latter +case, or where the tenant fishes to the landholder, he comes under +an agreement to deliver to him his fish, butter,* and oil, at a +certain price, and then the lands are let at a considerably reduced +rate. This system, where there is a reciprocity of profit between +the landholder and the tenant, is by far the most general, and the +practice is immemorial in Zetland. + +'The merks are divided into different classes, such as +<six-penny, nine-penny>, and <twelve-penny> merks. These are +arbitrary numbers, employed to designate certain differences in +the rents of the merks, according to their size and produce. Thus +nine-penny merks should be more valuable than six-penny merks, +and twelve-penny more so than nine-penny. But these distinctions, +although rounded, no doubt, originally on real differences, are at +present very inaccurate measures of the relative value of the +different classes of merks; for sometimes happens that a six-penny +merk is as large and productive as a twelve-penny one. . . + +'The lands in the different towns generally lie, <pro indiviso>, +intimately mingled together, which not only [Page 3 rpt.] creates +frequent disputes, but prevents the more industrious tenants from +making smaller enclosures... + +'The ground is divided into what is called <outfield> and +<infield>. The outfield is the land which has been last brought +into a state of cultivation, and in most parts the soil is mossy. It is +sown generally with oats. The infield, on the contrary, has been +long in a state of culture, and it produces barley, called in Zetland +bear, and potatoes. The outfield is seldom well drained, although +it might be easily done without any additional trouble or expense. +Thus, when cutting peat for fuel, which is often done within the +dyke, instead of doing this in parallel lines, leaving a considerable +space between them to become a future corn-field, the people cut +in every direction, disfigure the ground, and very often form +reservoirs for water to accumulate in. The outfield is allowed to +remain fallow for one, and sometimes two years in succession, but +the infield is generally turned over every year.'** [Vol. i p. 147 +sqq.] + +* This does not accurately describe the present mode of paying +rents. The rent is always nominally a money rent, although it may +be paid in account, as will afterwards be shown +** It would be out of place to make extensive quotations from this +valuable work. But I refer to it as containing discussions the social +state of Shetland, showing that many of the questions involved in +the present inquiry required an answer seventy years ago. See also +Hibbert's <Description of the Shetland Islands> (Edin. 1822) + +The enclosed lands were formerly runrig, <i.e.> held by the +inhabitants of the township in scattered allotments, at different +places within the dyke or enclosing wall,-the allotments +being made, apparently, in such a manner as to give the tenants +equal shares of the different qualities of land. In late years, +however, much progress is said to have been made in dividing the +farms and throwing the ground of each tenant into one lot. [J.S. +Houston, 9654; W. Stewart, 8992; A. Sandison, 9993.] + +DWELLINGS. + +The following description of the Shetland hut or cottage is +written by Dr. Arthur Mitchell, now one of the Commissioners of +Lunacy for Scotland, a very accurate and careful observer +(Appendix to the Second Report of the General Board of +Commissioners in Lunacy for Scotland, 1860):- + +'The Shetland cottage or hut is of the rudest description. It is +usually built of undressed stone, with a cement of clay or turf. +Over the rafters is laid a covering of pones, divots, or flaas,* and +above this again a thatch of straw, bound down with ropes of +heather, weighted at the ends with stones, as a protection against +the high winds which are so prevalent. Chimneys and windows +are rarely to be seen. One or more holes in the roof permit the +escape of the smoke, and at the same time admit light. Open +doors, the thatched roof, and loose joinings everywhere, insure a +certain ventilation, without which the dwellings would often be +more unhealthy than many in the lanes of our large cities. To this, +there is no doubt, we must attribute the comparative absence of +fever, the occasional presence of which, I think, is greatly due to +that violation of the plainest law of nature, the box-bed. This evil +is often intensified in Shetland by having the beds arranged in tiers +one above the other, in ship fashion, with the apertures of access +reduced to the smallest possible size. + +'Drainage is wholly unattended to, and the dunghill is invariably +found at the very door. As the house is entered, the visitor first +comes upon that part allotted to the cattle, which in summer are +out night and day, but in winter are chiefly within doors. Their +dung is frequently allowed to accumulate about them; and I was +told that this part of the house is sometimes used by the family in +winter as a privy. Passing through the byre, the human habitation +is reached. The separation between it and the part for the cattle is +ingeniously effected by an arrangement of the furniture, the bed +chiefly serving for this purpose. The floor is of clay, and the fire is +nearly always in the middle of it .... + +'In some respects, however, the Zetland dwellings stand a +favourable comparison with those of the Western Islands. +There is a bareness and desolation about the misery of a Harris +house that is tenfold more depressing. It is a poor house and an +empty one - a decaying, mouldy shell, without the pretence of a +kernel. Whereas in Zetland there is usually a certain fulness. +There are bulky sea-chests, with smaller ones on the top of them; +chairs, with generally an effort at an easy one; a wooden bench, a +table, beds, spades, fishing-rods, baskets, and a score of other little +things, which help, after all, to make it a domus. The very teapot, +in Zetland always to be found at the fireside, speaks of home and +woman, and reminds one of the sobriety of the people - that very +important difference between them and the inhabitants of the +Hebridean islands. I think the Zetlanders, too, are more +intelligent, and more inclined to be industrious, and give greater +evidence of the tendency to accumulate or provide. + + 'Instead of describing the house occupied by each patient, I +have given this general account of the average Zetland dwelling, +and then, in my individual reports, I have spoken of the special +houses as of, above, or below the average.' + +*Different terms signifying varieties of sod. + + +Since 1860, the dwellings of the people have undergone +considerable improvement, especially in the more advanced +districts, such as Unst; but the description given of them by Dr. +Cowie,* the latest writer on Shetland and himself a Shetlander, +and my own observation so far as it went, enables me to state +that Dr. Mitchell's description of the average cottage of the +fisherman-farmer is still substantially correct. Cottages to which +the description exactly applies may be found within a mile of +Lerwick. In Lerwick, the capital, the poorer dwellings are, to say +the least, not better than those of the same class in other towns of +its size. [D. Edmonstone, 10,683; Rev. W. Smith, 10,718; Dr. +Cowie, 14,745.] + +*<Shetland: Descriptive and Historica>l. By Robert Cowie, +M.A., M.D., Aberdeen. 1871. See p. 91. Edmonstone's <View of +the Zetland Islands>, vol. ii., p. 48. <New Statistical Account of +the Shetland Islands>, p. 138. +______________________________ + +THE LING FISHERY. + +DIFFERENT KINDS OF FISHING. + +It is necessary to distinguish the terms which are somewhat +loosely used in speaking of the different kinds of fishing carried on +in Shetland. The home or summer fishing, when that term is used +in its widest sense, includes all the fishing for ling, cod, tusk, +[Page 4 rpt.] and seath prosecuted in open boats, whether of six +oars, or of a smaller size such as are still used for the seath fishery +at Sumburgh. The 'haaf fishery' is, in the greater part of Shetland, +synonymous with the home or summer fishery, being distinguished +from it only where, as at Sumburgh, seath fishing is prosecuted in +summer in the smaller open boats. 'Haaf' is 'the deep sea - the +fishing of cod, ling, and tusk.'* This fishery is also generically +known as the ling fishing, because, though, considerable quantities +of tusk and cod are also caught at the haaf, ling is by far the most +important part of its produce. The term 'cod fishing' is sometimes +applied to what is usually called the 'Faroe fishing', which is +prosecuted in large smacks in the vicinity of the Faroe Islands, and +in autumn as far north as Iceland. On the west coast of the +mainland, the 'cod fishing'- or 'home cod fishing' as it is called, +to distinguish it from the Faroe fishing - is carried on, though +now to a comparatively trifling extent, in smacks of a smaller size, +at banks to the south-west of Shetland. The 'winter fishing' is +prosecuted in small boats of four oars, which belong entirely to the +men engaged in it, the fish being generally cured by themselves, or +sold to any merchant they please for a price fixed and paid in +money or goods at the time. + +* Edmonstone's <Etymological Glossary of Orkney and Shetland +Dialect> (Edin. 1866.) + +FISHING TENURE FORMERLY EXISTING. + +The ling and tusk fishery is the oldest of the existing fishing +industries of Shetland. It appears in the seventeenth century to +have been in the hands of Dutch merchants and shipowners, who +supplied the natives with the means of fishing; cured, or at least +dried, the fish on the beaches; and carried it to Holland. It is said +that the proprietors of Shetland were first induced about the +beginning of the eighteenth century to take the ling fishing into +their own hands, supplying their tenants with materials, and +receiving the fish at a stipulated rate.* The system which grew up +after this change is referred to by Dr. Adam Smith,** and appears +to have been in full vigour in at least one part of Shetland but a +few years ago. It is thus described by a witness, William Stewart, +as it existed till 1862 in Whalsay, where he was a tenant of the late +Mr. Bruce of Simbister:- + +'8978. What rent did you pay there?-The rent I always paid for +my ground was 26s.' +'8979. Did you fish for Mr. Bruce at that time?-Yes, for the late +Mr. William Bruce.' +'8980. And you had an account with him at the shop in +Whalsay?-Yes.' +'8981. How did you pay your rent?-Generally by fishing.' +'8982. Was it put into your account?-Yes. The thing was carried +on on a very strange system. Our land was put in to us at a low +rent, and our fish were taken from us at as low a value. The prices +for the fish never varied, either for the spring or summer.' +'8983. Do you mean that they were the same every year?-They +were. Whatever they might be in the markets, they were all the +same to us.' +'8984. Had you never the benefit of a rise in the market at all?- +Never.' +'8985. Did you not object to that?-We had just to content +ourselves with it, or leave the place.' +'8986. It was part of your bargain for your land, that you were to +give your fish at a certain rate?-Yes; there were so much of the +fish taken off for the land. That was the first of the fishing. We +got 3s. 4d. a cwt. for ling, 2s. 6d. for tusk, and 20d. for cod, and so +much of each kind of fish was taken off until the land was paid +for; and then the prices were raised to 4s, I think, for ling, 3s. 2d. +for tusk, and 2s. 6d. for cod, for all the rest of the summer fishing.' +'8987. Did you get these prices for a number of years?-I think for +the thirteen years that I was on the station they never varied one +halfpenny for the summer fishing. The prices for the winter +fishing varied a little. Sometimes we would sell the small cod as +low as 2s. 6d, and at other times at 3s.' +'8988. Did you sell the winter fishing for payment at the time, or +did it go into the account too?-It was never put into the account +at all; we just got what we required for it. It was ready payment; +but it was very rarely that we got money for the winter fishing.' +'8989. Did you know at the time that the prices you were paid at +the latter part of the season were lower than the market price of +the fish?-We knew that; but it was just the bargain.' +'8990. Was that the system with all the tenants in Whalsay at that +time?-With every one.' +'8991. When did that system cease?-I think it ceased about a year +after I came here-about 1863.' + +[W. Stewart, 8978; See J.S. Houston, 9727.] + +* Edmonstone's <View of the Zetland Islands>, vol. ii., p. 232., +Brand's <Brief Description of Orkney, Zetland>, etc., pp. 73, 89, +128, 136, etc. (Edin. 1701). +** <Wealth of Nations>, b.i.c. xi. + +LAND QUESTION CONNECTED WITH TRUCK QUESTION. + +It is impossible to separate the question of Truck in Shetland +from the land question - (1.) Because Truck, in the form in +which it chiefly exists, has arisen out of these old relations +between landlords and tenants in the times when the landlords +were the principal or the only purchasers and curers of fish; and +(2.) because, to a very material extent, the relations between the +fish-curer and the fishermen are still subservient and ancillary +to the landlord's security for his rent.* That this is so will appear +from a description of the ling fishery as it now exists. + +*<See> General Observations on Shetland, by Lawrence +Edmonstone +M.D., in <New Statistical Account>, p. 160 (Edin. 1841) + +TACKSMEN AND MERCHANTS. + +Although the proprietors may originally have had some concern +with all the fishing of the year, it is in the ling fishery that they till +lately occupied, and in some instances still occupy, the position of +the old Dutch traders. In this position they have now, for the most +part, been succeeded by merchants, who in some instances are +tacksmen (or [Page 5 rpt.] 'tacksmasters,'-<Anglicé>, principal +lessees or middle-men, having sub-tenants), and in others are +merely lessees of a fishing station, with its invariable appendage, +a retail shop or store for goods of every kind. There is a regular +season for the haaf fishing, lasting from about the 20th of May till +the 12th of August. It is carried on chiefly from stations as near as +possible to the haaf, where lodges or huts are erected for each +boat's crew. The men return to their homes at the end of each +week. At each station where the fish are landed, whether that +is a temporary station,-such as Feideland, Whalsay Skerries, +Stenness, Papa Stour, Spiggie, or Gloup,-or a permanent curing +establishment and shop, such as Reawick, Uyea Sound, Quendale, +or Hillswick,-factors are employed by the merchants to receive +and weigh the fish, and enter the weight in a fish-book. These +factors at the temporary stations are entrusted with a small supply +of meal, lines, hooks, and other articles likely to be wanted by the +fishermen, which they sell to them in the same way as the +merchants themselves or their servants do at the permanent shops. + +[W. Irvine, p. 85.] + + MODE OF FISHING. + +The mode of fishing is similar to the long-line fishing in +the North Sea, described in the Report of the Sea Fisheries +Commission, 1866, App. p. 6. + + AGREEMENTS AND SETTLEMENTS. + +A boat is usually divided into six shares, each of the crew +having one share; the proceeds of the fish, after deducting the +price or hire of the boat and other expenses incurred on account of +the crew, for which the crew is responsible as a company, being +also divided into six shares. In some rare cases the shares are +fewer, and one or two of the men are hired. + +It is an invariable rule that a boat's crew delivers all its fish +taken during the summer to the same merchant. In a few cases this +arises, as it formerly did almost universally, simply from the fact +that the men are all tenants of a proprietor or middle-man, who +makes it a condition of their holding their crofts that they shall +fish for him. In others, it is the subject of an express or tacit +arrangement with a particular fish-curer. + +When he delivers his fish, the fisherman does not receive +payment for it, nor does he know what price it will bring. The +arrangement or understanding is, that the price is to be at the +current rate at the end of the season. The season ends, so far as the +fishing is concerned, at or about August 12; but the sales are not +made until September and October, when the process of curing +is completed. The settlement of the price does not take place +till November, December, or January; and in the case of one +merchant, it appears to have been more than once delayed to a +considerably later period. When a number of crews deliver their +fish to the same merchant, especially if he has a number of stations +at different parts of the islands, his settlements are considerably +protracted. Each crew, as I have said, has got supplies at the +fishing station; it has also got fishing materials, and it may have to +pay the hire, or instalments of the price, of its boat. These are all +debited to the crew in a ledger account, kept in the name of the +skipper and crew, thus -'John Simpson & Co., Stenness.' The +sums due for these items being deducted from the total amount of +the boat's fishing, the balance is divided into shares, which are +carried to the private accounts of the several fishermen; for in +almost every case the fisherman and his family obtain, during the +year, 'supplies' of goods from the shop of the fish-curer. In the +great majority of cases there are no passbooks for such accounts. + The private account is read over to the fisherman by the fishcurer, +or by his shopkeeper, where he does not personally manage that +department of his business; and the fisherman being satisfied as to +its correctness, or, as it often happens, trusting to the honesty of +the merchant, it is settled, any balance due to the fisherman being +paid in cash, any balance against him being carried to his debit in a +new account. [See below - SETTLEMENTS AND PASS-BOOKS] THE +debit against the fisherman consists-(1.) Of any balance against +him in the account of the previous year; (2.) Of goods of various +kinds supplied from the store; (3.) Of cash advanced in the course +of the year, either to himself personally, or for rent, taxes, or other +payments made on his account. It may possibly occur in a bad +season, that his share of a balance against the crew with which he +has been fishing may increase his indebtedness; but no case of this +kind has been brought under my notice. On the other hand, he is +credited with the price of his fish at the current rate, and with the +price of any cattle or ponies sold by him to the merchant. The +smaller farm produce, such as butter and eggs, although very often +sold to the same merchant, does not enter the account, having been +paid in goods across the counter, rarely in cash, at the time of +delivery. + +[See below, p. 24.] + +[Page 6 rpt.] + +TRUCK. + +It thus appears to be quite possible that fishermen should receive +the whole of their earnings in shop goods, and I understand that +the truth of the allegation that most of the men actually are so +paid, and that they have no option but to take goods for their fish, +at prices fixed by the merchant, was intended to be the main +subject of this inquiry. + +COMPLAINTS BY FISHERMEN. + +Upon this subject the complaints of the men themselves were not +loud or frequent. The only cases in which fishermen came forward +voluntarily for the purpose of stating grievances, on hearing of the +Commission, were those in which they are bound by their tenure to +deliver their fish to the proprietor of the ground, or his tacksman. +As in all these cases they are also supplied with goods from the +landlord's or tacksman's shop, it was necessary to hear fully what +the men had to say, even although their complaints appeared to +involve a question as to the tenure of land, as well as the payment +of wages. + +FISHING TENURES. + +Complaints on this subject were made by tenants on the estates of +Sumburgh and Quendale, in the parish of Dunrossness, and on the +island of Burra. It also appeared in the evidence of persons cited, +that the obligation exists and is enforced on the estate of Lunna, in +the parish of Nesting and Lunnasting; on that of Ollaberry, in +Northmaven; on those of Mr. Henderson, Mrs. Budge, Messrs. +Pole & Hoseason, in Yell; in the island of Whalsay, held by +Messrs. Hay & Co. from Mr. Bruce of Simbister; on the +Gossaburgh estate, in Yell and Northmaven, held by them +from Mrs. Henderson Robertson; and in Skerries, of which Mr. +Adie has a tack from Mr. Bruce. On other estates the tenants are +nominally free, although it may sometimes be doubtful how far +they are able to exercise any choice. + +SUMBURGH [Qu. 548 sqq.] + +The first witness who came forward to speak of the obligation to +deliver the fish to the landlord was Laurence Mail, who was not +summoned, and his evidence shows how naturally this grievance is +connected with the system of Truck. He says:- + +'559. What is the complaint you wish to make?-There is one +thing we complain of: that we are bound to deliver our fish, wet or +green, to the landlord.' +'560. That is, you have to deliver the fish as they are caught?- +Yes; of course we have to take out the bowels and cut off the +heads: it is the bodies of the fish we give. We think it would be +much better if we had liberty to dry the fish ourselves, as we used +to do formerly.' +'561. To whom are you bound to give your fish?-To Mr. Bruce, +our landlord.' +'562. Is he a fish-curer or fish-merchant?-Yes.' +'563. Is it Mr. Bruce or his son that you are speaking of?-It is +young Mr. Bruce. He is the landlord or tack-master. His father is +alive; but I think young Mr. Bruce has got power from his father to +engage the tenants according to his own pleasure.' +'564. Do you pay your rent to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes.' +'565. And does he give you a receipt for it in his own name?-We +settle once a year with him for our fishing, and for the store goods +we have got, and rent and everything together.' +'566. Do you get an account for the whole?-He generally gives us +a copy of our account. Sometimes, perhaps, he does not do so; but +he will give it if we ask for it ....' +'568. Is that all you have got to say on the subject of your +complaint?-No; I have something more. Of course, as we are +bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, a man, unless he has money of his +own, is shut up to deal at Mr. Bruce's shop. His credit is gone at +every other place, and that binds us to take our goods from his +store; and generally the goods there are sold at the highest value.' + +In the case of the Sumburgh tenants, who are above two +hundred in number, there was a period of freedom, following a +general increase of rent; but about 1862 the son of the landlord +began business as a fish-merchant, and as a preparation for that +obtained a lease of the southern portion of his father's estate. +Intimation of the trick was made to the tenants; and it appears to +have been intimated at the same time that the tenants must deliver +their fish to young Mr. Bruce, the tacksman. Some of the tenants +were required to sign an obligation so to deliver their fish. The +merchants who had previously had stores on Mr, Bruce's property +were removed. + +[L. Mail, 625; G. Williamson, 4961; H. Gilbertson, 4575; J. +Harper, 4507; G. Leslie, 4612; R. Halcrow, 4646, 4656; L. Smith +4720; A. Tulloch, 468; T. Aitken, 4803-4835; L. Mail, 639] + +QUENDALE. + +On the neighbouring estate of Quendale, where about fifty +fishermen are employed, a similar statement was made to the +tenants when the present proprietor became a fish-merchant. A +change upon the previous system is said to have been then made; +but one witness, who has lived on the property for at least fifty +years, says that during all that period he never had freedom. The +proprietor says that his tenants have sat upon the ground subject to +that condition for three generations, <i.e.> since it was purchased +by his family in 1765. James Flawes, the first witness examined as +to this place, says:- + +[Page 7 rpt.] + +'4913. Is your obligation a written one, or is it part of a verbal +lease of your land?-When young Mr. Grierson got the fishing, he +read out a statement to his tenantry at large, in the schoolroom at +Quendale.' +'4914. How long ago was that?-Twelve years ago. That +statement which he read gave the tenantry to understand that he +was to become their fish-merchant, or the man they were to deliver +their fish to; and that they were all bound to give him every tail of +their fish from end to end of the season, as long as they held their +land under him. If they did not do that, they knew the +consequences: they would be turned out.' +'4915. Was that all stated to you in the schoolroom on that +occasion?-Yes; it was all read off by Mr. Grierson himself.' +'4916. Were you present?-Yes.' +'4917. Did he state that you would be paid for your fish according +to the current price at the time of settlement?-Yes; that was +stated also at that time.' + +[James Flawes, 4911; G. Goudie, 5034; C. Eunson, 5056; L. +Leslie, 5077; J. Burgess, 5099; H. Leslie, 5131; cf. C. Eunson, +5060, L. Leslie, 5087.] + +LUNNA. + +On Lunna estate, about the same time, Mr. Bell, then +sheriff-substitute of the county, handed over the estate and +fishing to Mr. John Robertson, sen., a merchant in Lerwick, +as tacksman, the tenants being told, at a meeting at Lunna +House, that they must in future fish for Mr. Robertson if they +went to fish at Skerries, the principal fishing station in that +part of the country. + +[James Hay, 5425, L. Simpson, 13,833; John Robertson, sen., +14,075; John Johnston, 9224; L. Robertson, 13,934; Robert +Simpson, 13,983; A. Anderson; 9277; J. Henderson, 5512.] + +WHALSAY. + +The men in Whalsay are not under Messrs. Hay & Co. as +tacksmen, but they are bound to deliver their fish to them. +Particulars were given by Mr. Irvine,. who is a partner of Hay & +Co., and factor for the proprietor. No complaints came from this +island. It may be remarked that the farms in it are more productive +than in some other parts of Shetland, and that it is but lately that +the people were emancipated from a very primitive kind of tenure, +already described. + + [W. Irvine, 3623, and see above, W. Stewart, 8978. See above, +Page 4, rpt.] + +BURRA ISLANDS. + +As soon as I arrived at Lerwick, a complaint was laid before +me in writing by the inhabitants of the Burra Islands, part of the +trust-estate of the family of Scott of Scalloway. These islands are +leased to Messrs. Hay & Co. for a tack duty nearly equal to the +gross rental paid to them by the sub-tenants. The tack duty is +paid by Messrs. Hay & Co. half-yearly, while they receive their +sub-rents at the annual settlement. The chief inducement to +Messrs. Hay to hold the lease of the island is that they may obtain +the fish of the inhabitants, who are bold and successful fishermen, +and are more favourably situated for the haaf fishing than any +other people in Shetland. + +[W. Irvine, 3623.] + +The complaint made by the men of Burra was simply that they +were not at liberty to cure their own fish and sell them in the +highest market. Fourteen years ago the late Mr. William Hay told +them that they must sell to him, and eight years ago a similar +intimation was made on the part of the present firm, who wished +the men to sign an obligation to deliver all their fish to them. The +following is the statement of Walter Williamson, who was the +chief spokesman of the Burra men who came to Lerwick:- + +'790. Why do you not do it (<i.e.> cure and sell your own fish)?- +Because we would be ejected from the place if we were not to +deliver our fish to them.' +'791. What is your reason for supposing that?-Because we have +been told so.' +'792. Was it on the occasion you have mentioned, eight years ago, +that you were told so?-It was.' +'793. Have you been told since that you would be ejected if you +did not deliver your fish to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have never +since asked anything about it, so that I had no reason to be told +so.' +'794. Has any person been ejected for selling fish to other +merchants than Hay & Co., or for curing his own fish?-I think +there have been such cases in Burra. I believe John Leask was +ejected for not serving as a fisherman to Messrs. Hay & Co.' +'795. How long ago was that?-I think it would be about thirteen +years since, or close thereby.' + +[W. Williamson, 764, 776; P. Smith, 980; T. Christie, 1064; C. +Sinclair, 1109; G. Goodlad, 1208.] + +Liberty money was exacted by Messrs. Hay from some of the +Burra men some years ago, <i.e.> a payment of 20s., in respect of +a tenant or his sons having failed to deliver fish to the lessee. +[Peter Smith, 1012.] But in some cases, at least, it appears that +this money was repaid. Messrs. Hay & Co. explain that- + +'Some years ago, after a time of bad crops and bad fishings, +when we had to give them large quantities of meal for their +support, and many of them were unable to pay rents, the islands +were indebted the best part of £1000. We made an attempt at that +time to get the young men to fish to us and assist their parents, and +I think in two cases we imposed fines of 20s.; but it had a contrary +effect to what we intended, and, so far as I remember, the money +was given back.' + +And Mr. Irvine says in his examination, 'The object of the fine +was to compel the sons to assist the fathers.' The written +obligation itself has not been recovered, and neither Mr. Irvine, +of Hay & Co., nor other witnesses, have a very clear recollection of +its contents. I am inclined to believe, however, although Mr. +Irvine appears to have a different impression, that the obligation +it sought to impose was wide enough in its terms to include +the Faroe fishing, in which Messrs. Hay & Co. are engaged +very extensively. There is some evidence that constraint or +compulsion, or rather influence, such as a landlord can exercise +over his tenants, has been used in Burra and elsewhere, in order to +get [Page 8 rpt.] Faroe fishing-smacks well manned. But so far as +Burra is concerned, that influence seems not to have been applied +in late years, and it is not general elsewhere. + +[W. Irvine, 3623, 3754 sqq.; Peter Smith, 1041; C. Sinclair, 1135, +1143; W. Irvine, 3920, W. Williamson, 923; Peter Smith, 1012, +1057; C. Sinclair, 1118; J.L. Pole, 9370.] + +GOSSABURGH. + +The tenants on the estate of Gossaburgh, in South Yell and +Northmaven, about 120 in number, are also bound to deliver their +fish, both in summer and winter, to Messrs. Hay & Co., as +tacksmen of the property, if they engage in the ling fishing. In the +Northmaven portion of the estate (North Roe), thirty-three out of +fifty-six tenants actually fished for the tacksmen last year; three +fished by sufferance to other curers, two were at Faroe, and two or +three were sailing south; others were employed by the lessees as +curers and tradesmen, and probably a few were unfit for fishing. +The average rent paid by the tenants on this part of the estate is £3, +3s. It seems that the profit of Messrs. Hay & Co. on their tack +consists, as it does in the case of Burra, almost entirely in the +power it gives them over the fishermen tenants. + +[J. Pottinger, 13,540; W. Robertson, 13, 628; W. Irvine, 3818; D. +Greig, 7116-7131; W. Irvine, 3623, 3624, 3811; Andrew Ratter, +7404 sqq.] + +BURRAVOE. + +The tenants on the estate of Burravoe, in the south of Yell, +belonging to Mr. Henderson, are bound to fish to their landlord. +Both Mr. Henderson and his son were unable to attend the sitting +at Mid Yell, in consequence of the state of their health; but I saw +Mr. George Henderson at his place of business, examined his +books, and obtained a full return from him. Mr. Henderson had +thirty men fishing for him last year, but these were not all tenants +of his own. On this estate, as on some others, it appears to be the +rule, subject perhaps to exceptions, that a tenant who cannot or +does not fish must quit his farm, or pay a higher rent. + +[R. Smith, 9121, 9123 sqq.; D. More, 9639.] + + SKERRIES + +The tenants on the Out Skerries, north-east of Whalsay, +forming six boats' crews, are obliged to fish to Mr. Adie, who +holds a tack of the islands from Mr. Bruce of Simbister. Mr. Adie +says:- + +'5767. Is the rent which you pay for Skerries calculated so as to +allow you a profit upon the rents of the sub-tenants?-No; I pay +£110 of tack duty, and the gross rental from the tenants is only +£68. I virtually pay the difference just for the station that is, +station rent for the store and premises which are put up there.' +'5768. Is it not also for the privilege of having these fishermen to +fish for you?-I believe I could make more of these lands if I had +them as grazing ground, without any fishermen there at all. There +is only one of the Skerries I hold now; one of them has been sold +to the Lighthouse Commissioners.' +'5769. If you could make more of the island as grazing ground, +why don't you turn it into that?-If I were to do so, what could I +make of the men? There are fourteen families, and if I turned +them adrift it would be a fearful thing.' +'5770. Is it difficult for men to get land in Shetland?-It is very +difficult now; there are so many requiring it, that almost every +place is taken up. I have boats that go from the mainland to fish at +the Skerries with the natives.' +'5771. Then it is useful as a station for them?-Yes.' + +[T. Hutchison, 12,622; P. Henderson, 12,734; D. Anderson, +12,774; A. Humphray, 12,802.] + +YELL, ETC. + +The tenants on certain scattered properties in Yell. and the +Mainland belonging to Mr. Pole, held in tack by him, or for +which he is factor, are bound, if he requires them, to fish to +the firm of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; and this obligation extends +to the Faroe fishing also. + +[W. Pole, 5936; J.L. Pole, 9369.] + +OLLABERRY. + +The tenants on the Ollaberry property in Northmaven parish are +obliged to fish to a firm, of which the principal member is Mr. +John Anderson, Hillswick, brother of the proprietor and tacksman +of the estate. There are fifty or sixty tenants on this estate. There +is some evidence that in this place the bound men or tenants get a +lower price for their fish than those who are 'free.' + +[John Anderson, 6592; W. Blance, 6014, 6026, 6048; A. Johnson, +14,890, 14,908, 14,947.] + +CASE OF SEAFIELD TENANTS. + +I have still to mention the latest case of this exercise of the +patrimonial right of disposing of a tenant's fish, which is an +instructive instance of the submissive way in which the right is +accepted are Shetland. The tenants on the small property of +Seafield, on Reafirth or Mid Yell Voe, twenty-one or twenty-two +in number, had been in use to sell their fish in summer to Laurence +Williamson, a fish-curer and merchant on the opposite side of the +voe. There was, however, a shop at Seafield, the tenant of which +had been carrying on business not very successfully. He had +resolved to leave the place, and the business premises were likely +to be shut up. In this state of matters, the law-agent for the +proprietor wrote the following letter to a leading man among the +tenants, William Stewart:- + +'<Lerwick>, 22<d> Nov. 1870. +'WILLIAM,-I now write, as I promised, to explain what I expect +the Seafield tenants to do in regard to fishing, that you may +communicate the same to them. The business premises at +Seafield cannot be allowed to remain vacant, and consequently +unprofitable, while it is clear they must do so unless the tenants +fish to the tenant of these premises. The Seafield tenants, +therefore, must fish to Mr. Thomas Williamson upon fair and +reasonable terms, and I understand he is quite prepared to meet +them on such terms. I believe he will, in every respect, do you +justice; and so long as [Page 9 rpt.] he does so, you have no reason +to complain. But should it happen that he fails to treat you fairly +and honourably (of which I have no fear), you can let me know, +and matters will soon be put right. You and the tenants, however, +must not act towards Mr. Williamson in a selfish or hard way +either, for it is quite as possible for you to do so to him as it is for +him to do so to you. Both he and you all must work together +heartily and agreeably; and if you do so, I have no fear, humanly +speaking, that the result will be success to both.- I am, yours +faithfully, +W. SIEVWRIGHT +'William Stewart, Kirkabister, Seafield, Mid Yell.' + +[W. Stewart, 8917] + +Mr. Sievwright made a statement with regard to this letter, +which adds nothing to what appears in it, except the fact that most +of the tenants were in arrear for rent. It is stated also by Thomas +Williamson (who was put into business apparently by Mr. Leask, a +very extensive merchant in Lerwick), that he did not 'want any of +the men to fish for him;' that 'scarcely any man could keep the +premises there and carry on business in them without the privilege +of having the men to fish for him.' Twelve men of the Seafield +tenants, forming two boats' crews, had entered into a written +agreement to fish to Laurence Williamson in 1871; but they were +obliged to leave him and he says 'I slightly objected to it but of +course I could not help it .... Of they had to leave me because they +knew, or at least they believed, they would be differently dealt +with if they did not leave.' + +[W. Sievwright, 15,118; T. Williamson, 9493; W. Robertson, +13,660; L. Williamson, 9003, 9005.] + +In short, it has been so much a habit of the Shetlander's life to +fish for his landlord, that he is only now discovering that there is +anything strange or anomalous in it. This man, William Stewart, +to whom Mr. Sievwright wrote, had lived in Whalsay, as I have +already shown, under what appears to have been a still more +disadvantageous and servile tenure. He is a fair specimen of the +average peasant of such a district as Yell. It is evident that men +who have been brought up in such habits, and with the tradition +among them of a still more subservient time in the past, are +prepared not only to submit to extreme oppression on the part of +their proprietors, or those to whom their proprietors hand them +over, but also to become easily subjected to the influence of +merchants who possess no avowed control over them. + +CASE OF ROBERT MOUAT AT MOUL + +An instance of the abuse to which the system is liable in the +hands of an unscrupulous tacksman, is afforded by the case of +Robert Mouat, who held, until two years ago, a tack of the estate +of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, in Sandwick parish. A number of +witnesses came forward to testify to the thraldom of the tenantry, +and the injustice which they had suffered under his rule. The +evidence against Mouat was certainly given with such freedom, I +might say with such an earnestness of hatred, as was not displayed +towards any merchant or tacksman who is still in the country. +After making allowance for exaggeration, it is certain that the state +of Coningsburgh during the seventeen years of his rule must have +been very distressing. Every tenant on the ground was bound to +sell to him not only his fish, but all the saleable produce of his +farm. Money could not be got from him, according to one witness, +either at settlement or during the season. The witness John +Halcrow, who is much less vehement in his language than some +others, says: + +'13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The +fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their +produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish.' +'13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?- +No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce, +and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money.' +'13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes, +for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had +any money to get from him.' +'13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he +received all their fish.' +'13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them +money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him.' +'13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if +they would take it.' +'13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much.' +'13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good.' +'13,097. Then they would have money to get at the end of the year +if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes.' +'13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He +said he did not have it to give them.' +'13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases +they got it.' +'13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes.' +'13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they +would not take his goods.' +'13,102· Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes.' +'13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself.' +'13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to +give me.' +'13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two +years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of +1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again +to Mr. William Irvine.' + +And the witness produced documents to show that he had +actually paid rent in advance to Mouat in June 1871, which, +according to the law of Scotland, does not discharge the tenant; +and that he had afterwards paid it to Mr. Irvine, as factor for Mr. +Bruce. While it may be taken for granted that the condition of +tenants under Mr. Mouat was at no time enviable, some of the +statements about his conduct ought probably to be accepted as +literally true only with regard to the period of struggling +circumstances immediately preceding his bankruptcy. + +[John Leask, 1284; Gavin Colvin, 1382; M. Malcolmson, 2978; W. +Manson, 3018; H. Sinclair, 5312; W. Irvine, 3948.] + +[Page 10 rpt.] + +EVICTION AND LIBERTY MONEY. + +In all the cases where tenants are bound to fish for the landlord, +there is a firm conviction that the penalty of disobedience is +eviction, or payment of 'liberty money.' 'We knew quite well,' +said James Flawes (4964), a tenant on Quendale, 'from the +statement which was made to us before, that, if any one +transgressed the rule, the penalty would just be our forty days' +warning.' And cases of threatened removal for this cause, and +payment of liberty money or fines, though not common, have yet +been sufficiently numerous to keep alive a wholesome +apprehension, and prevent widespread disobedience. Eviction to a +Shetlander is a serious matter, especially when it is for such a +cause as this. A new farm is always difficult to get. 'In the south,' +says one witness, 'a man can shift from town to town and get +employment; but here, if he leaves his house and farm, he has no +place to go to except Lerwick, and there is no room to be got there, +either for love or money.' + +[W. Irvine, 3625, 3755; L. Smith, 4486; J. Flawes, 4956; C. +Eunson, 5069; J. Johnston, 9238; J. Hutchison, 12,693; Peter +Smith, 1012; M. Malcolmson, 2994; W. Manson, 3025; W. +Goudie, 4274, 4385, etc.; H. Sinclair, 5320; John Johnston, 9423; +T.M. Adie, 5770.] + +There is an impression, not perhaps always correct in a region +where the excessive subdivision of land is ascribed to the desire of +landlords to increase the number of their fishing tenants, that a +man who is independent enough to differ from his landlord with +regard to the terms of his lease is not likely to find favour in the +eyes of other proprietors. A witness, speaking of another condition +of his holding, says:- + +'801. Are you not at liberty to make your own bargain about the +land, the same as any other tenant in Scotland is?-I am not aware +of that.' +'802. Suppose you were to object to make such a bargain, could +you not leave the land and get a holding elsewhere?-It is not +likely we would get a holding elsewhere.' +'803. Why?-We would very likely be deprecated as not being +legal subjects, and the heritors would all know that we were not +convenient parties to give land to. That is one reason; and another +reason is, that places are sometimes not very easily got.' +'804. Do the same conditions exist on other properties in +Shetland?-So far as I know, they prevail all over the country, or +nearly so.' +805. You think that, if you were trying to move, you would not get +free of a condition of that sort?-We might get free of it for a +time, but by next year the parties to whose ground we had removed +might bind us down to the same thing.' +806. But supposing all the men were united in refusing to agree to +such conditions, there could be no compulsion upon them?-They +have not the courage, I expect, to make such an agreement among +themselves.' + +[Walter Williamson, 801.] + +THE FORTY DAYS' WARNING TOO SHORT + +It is proper to call attention here to the fact that in agricultural +subjects held from Martinmas to Martinmas on a yearly tack, the +forty days' warning to remove, which is held sufficient by the law +of Scotland, is objected to, with some reason, as too short. A +crofter witness makes the following statement:- + +'4688. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is only forty +days' warning given before Martinmas. No doubt that may be well +enough for tenants town like Lerwick, who hold nothing except a +room to live in, but it is very disagreeable for a tenant holding a +small piece of land as we do. As soon as our crop is taken in, we +must start work immediately, and prepare the land for next season. +We have to make provision for manure, and collect our peats, and +prepare stuff for thatching our houses, and perhaps by Martinmas +we have expended from £6 worth of labour and expense on our +little farms. In that case, it is a very hard thing for us to be turned +out of our holdings after receiving only forty days' notice, and +perhaps only getting £1 or £2 for all that labour. Now what I +would suggest is, that instead of that short notice we should be +entitled to receive a longer notice, perhaps six or nine months +before the term, that we are to be turned out.' +'4689. Do you think you would be more at liberty to dispose of +your fish, and to deal at any shop you pleased, if you were entitled +to that longer warning?-I don't think the warning would alter +anything with regard to that; but if I knew that I was to be turned +out at Martinmas, I would probably start fishing earlier, and I +might have a larger price to get for them, instead of working upon +my land.' +'4690. But you can be punished more easily by your landlord for +selling your fish to another man, when he can turn you out on forty +days' warning, than if he could only do it on six or eight months' +warning?-I think it would be much the same with regard to that.' +'4691. You don't think that would make any difference as to the +fishing?-It might make a little difference, because if I received +my warning in March, and knew that I was to leave at Martinmas, +if I saw that I was to have a better price for my fish from another, I +would not fish to my landlord at all; but I would go to any man I +would get the best price from.' + +[R. Halcrow, 4688.] + +The same view is taken by the Rev. James Fraser, who gave +very valuable information, both at the sitting held at Brae, and in a +subsequent letter, printed in the evidence. + +[R. Fraser, 8054 sqq.] + +STATEMENTS BY LANDHOLDERS AND TACKSMEN + +It is unnecessary to refer in detail to mere admissions on the part +of landlords and tacksmen, that such obligations exist on the +estates under their control. Such admissions were made in all the +cases already referred to, as will be seen from the references on +the margin. In some cases, however, arguments were stated in +justification of the practice. Mr. Irvine perhaps put the case lower +than any of this class of witnesses for he simply said in regard to +Burra, that the tack had been held for a very long time by his firm, +and that when it expired many of the people owed debts, some of +which would [Page 11 rpt.] not have been recovered if the island +had passed to another fish-merchant as tacksman. He assumed +that here, as in other cases, the landlord in Shetland must depend +on the fishing for payment of his rents. Mr. Bruce, younger, of +Sumburgh thus states his views:- + +'The tenants on the property in this parish managed by me are +at liberty to go to sea to the Greenland or Faroe fishing, or to +pursue any land occupation as they please; but if they remain at +home and go to the home fishing, they are expected to deliver their +fish to me, and receive for it the full market value. This is one of +the conditions on which they hold their farms, and is, I consider, a +beneficial rule for the fishermen. They must fish to some +merchant, and as I give them as high a price as they could get from +another, they are no losers, while I provide suitable curing and +fishing stations, and these stations of mine are the most convenient +places for them to deliver their fish .... This, I will endeavour to +show, is no grievance at all, but an advantage to the fishermen.' + +'In looking over the whole of Shetland, it will be found that the +most prosperous districts are those under the direct management of +the landlords.' + +'Many of the fishermen in this country (as, indeed, many of the +poorer classes everywhere) are unable, from want of thrift and +care, to manage their own matters in a satisfactory manner, and +require to be thought for and acted for, and generally treated like +children, and are much better off under the management of a +landlord who has an interest in their welfare, than they would be if +in the hands of a merchant whose only object was to make a profit +out of them.' + +'A merchant who has no control over the fishermen, may, in +some cases, wish to get them and keep them in his debt, in order to +secure their custom; but the case of a landlord also a merchant is +quite different. It is his interest to have a prosperous, thrifty, and +independent tenantry; and he will use his utmost endeavour to +keep them out of debt, and to encourage saving habits.' + +'I can see no reason why the fact of a man being a landlord +should prevent him from being also a merchant and fish-curer; and +if so, why he should not secure a lot of good fishermen by making +it one of the conditions of occupancy by his tenants, that if +fishermen they shall fish to him.' + +'The very fact of a landlord being a fish-curer would lead up to +this, for tenants would naturally wish to stand well with their +landlord, and, other conditions being equal, would prefer to give +him their fish ....' + +'There are, no doubt, many things in the Shetland system of +trade which might be improved; but the system has been of long +growth, and is so engrained in the minds of the people, that any +change must be very gradual: a sudden and sweeping change to +complete free-trade principles and ready-money payments would +not suit the people, but would produce endless confusion, +hardship, and increased pauperism.' + +'Under the present system, with our small rentals and large +population, our poor-rates are very high. But the landlords support +a great many families which would otherwise be thrown on the +rates.' + +'It is no uncommon thing, where a family is deprived of its +breadwinner, for the landlord to support the family till the younger +members grow up, and are abler to provide for themselves, and +repay the landlord's advances.' + +'Abolish the present system suddenly, and I am afraid our +poor-rates would become unbearable, and nothing would save the +country but depopulation.' + +[W. Irvine, 3623, 3625, 3920, 3974, etc.; P.M. Sandison, 5211; W. +Pole, 5936; J. Anderson, 6573, 6592; D. Greig, 7111, 7215; J.L. +Pole, 9370; T. Williamson, 9466, 9493, 9520; W. Robertson, +10,858, 13,667; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,299; G. Irvine, 13,130; John +Bruce, jun., p. 330a; A.J. Grierson, 15,061; John Robertson, sen., +14,075; W. Rivine, 3916, 3920 sqq.] + +And Mr. A.J. Grierson of Quendale speaks still more forcibly to +the same effect. + +[A.J. Grierson, 15,062, 15,078.] + +In almost every case, however, except those of Mr. Bruce and Mr. +Grierson, the condition as to fishing is spoken of by those in whose +favour it is imposed, in apologetic terms. It is plain that the right +to have men bound to give fish is regarded as a valuable one, +since tacksmen so shrewd as Messrs. Hay & Co. are willing to pay +for it a rent equal to the full amount of the sub-rents, and to +manage and uphold the property besides. + +[D. Greig, 7110; W. Irvine, 3816, 3929.] + + PAYMENT OF RENTS THROUGH MERCHANTS. + +Although the custom of delivering fish to the landlord or his +lessee, as merchant and curer, has become less common, +that custom has left its traces in the arrangement by which it +has been superseded. [W. Irvine, 3962.] The merchants who +receive fish from the tenants have still no small concern with their +rent; and it may be said that even now the final cause of the +existing system of settlements and agreements with fishermen is to +give security to the landlord for his rent. Mr. Gifford, factor on the +largest estate in Shetland (Busta), says that there is now no +understanding with the merchants who have establishments on that +property that they shall be responsible for the rents of the men. + + 'There is not a single tenant on the Busta estate, out of the whole +480 on it, or out of the 530 with whom I have to do, that any +of the merchants is liable for, even as a cautioner. That used to be +the case some time before, but it has not been so for a long time.' + +It does not follow, however, that the merchant has nothing to do +with the payment of the rent. Everywhere, without any exception, +rents are paid only once a year, at on about Martinmas. It was a +frequent practice, when the rent day arrived before the tenants had +received their money for fish, that they should get 'lines' from the +curer, the stated sums in which were placed to their credit by the +landlord. The sum-total of these lines was sent with a list to the +curer, who returned a cheque for the amount. A witness, [J.S. +Houston, 9657.] who speaks of the practice as it existed when he +collected Major Cameron's rents in Yell, says that there was an +understanding between Major Cameron and Sandison Brothers, +then the chief curers there, that - + + 'Any of Major Cameron's tenants who were what might be +called reckless or careless, should not be allowed to overdraw their +earnings, but that something should be left for their rent.' + +[Page 12 rpt.] + +'9661. Was Mr. Sandison a tenant of Major Cameron's in his +fish-curing premises?-Yes.' +'9662. Were these lines always in the same form?-Generally they +were the same. I have plenty of them at home.' +'9663. Are you aware of a similar practice having existed on any +other estate?-I believe it has existed; but I cannot speak so +positively about it on other estates. I may say that similar lines +have also been given to Major Cameron and myself from another +curer in North Yell, Mr. William Pole, jun., before he became a +partner of the Mossbank firm.' + '9664. Had he premises from Major Cameron also?-No; he had +his father's premises. With regard to these lines, I may state that, +although there was no understanding on the subject, Major +Cameron made it a practice not to come to his tenants asking for +their rents until he was pretty sure that everything was nearly +cut-and-dry for him.' +'9665. Do you think it is a general practice in Shetland for the +landlord to fix his rent day so as to be convenient for the +fishermen?-I think it is. They fix it after settlement. Mr. +Walker, the first year he was factor for Major Cameron, came +nearly close to his time, 11th November, but since then he has not +done so.' '9666. You are not aware whether that practice of giving +lines exists in Yell now?-It does exist. I myself have paid rents by +orders for cattle bought from Major Cameron's tenants.' + +In these and similar cases the curers are not formally tacksmen, +nor indeed do they formally guarantee to the proprietors the rents +of the tenants who deliver their fish to them; but it may be said +that there is a custom having almost the force of a legal obligation, +which makes it unusual for a merchant to refuse an advance for +payment of rent even to a man who is indebted to him. An +extreme example of this custom as it prevailed in Unst is thus +described by a very intelligent merchant, Mr. Sandison:- + +'I have here a letter which I wrote in 1860, and which represents +my views on that subject, and I may as well read an extract from +it:-"If we don't give unlimited advances, we are told the +fishermen will be taken from us. I have now been nearly +twelve months in this place (that was after I came first to Uyea), +and have closely watched the system pursued by proprietors and +others, and certainly agree with you that it is a bad one; but I know +I have no right to make any remarks or trouble you with my views +on that subject, further than to state that I cannot see any good that +will result from burdening the tenants with debt to the fish-curers. +It has been my desire, ever since I knew anything about Shetland +tenantry, to see them raised in the social scale, and made +thoroughly independent both of proprietors, fish-curers, and +others, and I have felt deeply interested in the -- properties, no +doubt from being more in contact with them; but when the poor +among them are in terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by +forced advances to different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more +offered to any fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is +not calculated to raise any tenant in self-respect." +'10,025. You speak in that letter of "forced advances:" what were +these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor's ground +officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant +that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only £2 or +£3 to get; and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not +go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from +me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent. +That looked very like forced advances.' +'10,026. That, however, was in 1860?-Yes.' +'10,027. Was that a common practice in those times?-I believe +that thirteen years ago truck existed ten times as much as it does +now.' +'10,028. But in 1860 was it a common thing for a proprietor's +ground officer to threaten to remove a tenant unless he could get +his rent from the fish-curer?-Yes; to threaten to remove him from +the ground unless he could pay his rent, or to move him from a +fish-curer who would not give him an advance for that purpose, to +some other fish-curer who would do so.' +'10,029. Have you known instances of fishermen who were treated +in that way?-Yes. I was referring to cases of that kind when I +was writing that letter. It was my own experience at the time +when I was at Uyeasound as a fish-curer, trying to engage any men +who came to me. Many came to me and fell into debt, because I +found that many of them required more from the shop than their +fishing amounted to; and then I advanced rent after rent, until I +saw that I was advancing to my own ruin.' +'10,030. After advancing rent in that way, have you been informed +that they were to be transferred to another fish-curer unless their +rent was still advanced by you?-Yes; in more cases than one.' +'10,031. Were you so informed by the landlord or by his factor?- +It was generally by the tenant himself, when he came seeking the +money.' +'10,032. Were you ever informed of it by the landlord, or any one +representing him?-No.' +'10,033. Had you any reason to believe the story which the +fishermen told you?-Yes. I believed them, because I knew of the +men being taken away sometimes.' +'10,034. Was that after they had made such statements to you, and +although they were in your debt?-Yes.' +'10,035. Were you able in these cases to make any arrangement +with the new employer to pay up their debt?-In some cases we +did that, but in other cases we did not; oftener we made no +arrangement ....' +'10,039. Have you, within the last twelve years, met with cases of +that sort, in which the proprietor endeavoured to coerce you to pay +his rent?-Yes. I have had cases where the tenants came asking +me for money, and I told them I could not advance them any +further. They would then go away, and come back and tell me that +the proprietor's agent or ground-officer had informed them that +they must get their rent, and that I must pay it; and that if I did not +do that, they would not be allowed to fish for me.' +'10,040. Did that system continue until 1868?-No; it prevailed +principally under the ground-officership of Mr. Sinclair, who acted +for Mrs. Mouat, in Unst.' + +[C. Nicholson, 11,912-11,933; T. Tulloch, 13,008; J. Smith, +13,047-13,055; W. Robertson, 13,689; John Laurenson, 9849; M. +Henderson, 9925; J. Walker, 15,984; Andrew Tulloch, 488; L. +Williamson, 9065; A. Sandison, 10,024.] + +Mr. David Edmonstone, once a fish-merchant and tacksman, now +a farmer and factor on the Buness estate in Unst, states that the +want of cash payments is the reason why this arrangement with +the curer is desired by the proprietor. + +'10,640. Is it usual for the proprietor to enter into any arrangement +with the fish-curer for the payment of his rents?-We do that on +the Buness estate, and I should like to explain the reason of it. The +tenants have all been told that they are at perfect liberty to fish to +whom they like; but after they have engaged to fish to a certain +curer, we wish them to bring a guarantee from their curer or curers +for the rent of the year on which they have entered, and during +which they are to fish. Our reason for that-in fact the only +reason-is, that the men do not get money payments, and therefore +a great number of them will be [Page 13 rpt.] induced to run a +heavy account at the shop, and when we collect the rents at +Martinmas we would have nothing to get. If the men were paid in +money, daily or weekly or fortnightly, then we would make no +such arrangement, but would collect the rents directly from the +men.' +'10,641. Then, in fact, that arrangement is made in order to limit +the credit which the fish-merchant gives to his men?-Yes; and to +secure that we are to get part of that money.' +'10,642. But it has the effect of limiting their credit?-Yes.' + +SPENCE & CO.'S LEASE + +Since November 1868 Mr. Sandison's present firm of Spence +& Co. have been responsible as tacksmen for the rents of the +fishermen tenants of Major Cameron's estate in Unst. At that time +they obtained a tack of the estate for twelve years, which was +formerly described by Mr. Walker*, and is in some respects +peculiar. Spence & Co., as lessees of the greater part of the estate, +which includes nearly half of the island, pay a fixed sum of rent +(£1100), and are bound to expend, or to get the sub-tenants to +expend, a certain annual sum on improvements at the sight of the +proprietor. Regulations for the cultivation of the small farms are +annexed to the lease, and are to form conditions of the sub-leases +to be granted by Spence & Co. The effect of these regulations and +of the lease is thus explained by Mr. Sandison: [Comp. J. Walker, +15,977.] + +* Truck Commission Evidence, qu. 44,450 sq. <See> Appx. + +'10,159. Any tenants not complying with these regulations may +be removed by you?-Yes; they will get their leases unless they +comply with them, and we can remove them at any time ....' +'10,161. How many of the tenants have adopted these +regulations?-I should say that, to a greater or less extent, they +have all made a fair commencement in the improvements and +rotation of cropping.' +'10,162. But you have absolute power to remove them if they do +not comply with that?-We have. The property is absolutely let to +us, and we can absolutely turn them out if they do not comply with +the regulations. The lease is clear enough upon that point.' +'10,163. Have you had occasion to exercise that power?-Not in +any case.' +'10,164. Have you threatened to do so?-Not so far as is known to +me.' +'10,165. There is no obligation on the tenants, under this lease, +either to fish for you or to sell the produce of their farms to your +firm?-No; it is long since I read the lease, but I don't think there +is anything of that sort in it.' +'10,166. In point of fact, is there any understanding on the part of +the tenants that they are bound to do so?- No.' +'10,167. You have told them that they are under no such +obligation?-Yes.' +'10,168. But, in point of fact, most of them do sell their fish to +you?-They do.' +'10,169. And, in point of fact, most of them do sell their eggs and +butter to you?-I think the great bulk of them do, but I cannot tell so +well about the butter and eggs. We buy fully as much now at +Uyea Sound we did in any season before the company +commenced.' +'10,170. And a number of the tenants also run accounts for shop +goods with your shops?-Yes; I think most of them do so ....' +'10,174. But although this lease does not contain an express +condition that the tenants are to fish for you, it gives you a power +of ejecting them?-Of course it does.' +'10,175. And the tenants are aware of that?-Yes.' +'10,176. And of course they may feel a little more unwilling to +deal with another party or to fish for him in consequence? -That +may be. I don't know what their private feelings may be, but the +lease gives us a stronger power than that: it reserves the peats, and +what could they do without peats? We have absolute power in that +respect, if we choose to put it in force, but I hope never to see that +done. We can refuse them peats altogether and scattald altogether, +and we can shut them up altogether, but I hope I will never live to +see that day.' +'10,177. In short, you can do anything you please with the tenants, +except deprive any one of his holding who complies with these +rules and regulations?-Yes.' +'10,178. The only security he has is to comply with them?-Yes.' +'10,179. As to the peats and scattalds, he has no security at all?- +None.' + +The rental annexed to the leases contains a list of 170 tenants, +paying £834, 19s. 4d., exclusive of certain farms which do not fall +under the lease until the expiry of current tacks. The surplus rent +paid by Spence & Co. is understood to be for the scattalds. + +Mr. Spence, the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co., speaks +of this liability of the curer for rent as a serious obstacle to the +introduction of a system of cash payments, which he and his +partners desire; but it is obvious that if payments were made in +cash, no such guarantees could reasonably be asked from the +curers. [J. Spence, 10,580 f.n.] + +The evidence of Mr. Sandison above quoted, the belief which the +men themselves entertain, and the statements of Mr. Walker, the +factor on the estate, show that the tenants on this property can +hardly decline to fish for Spence & Co., even if there were other +large merchants in Unst who could furnish them with materials +and supplies, and purchase their fish. If they are not bound to sell +their fish to Spence & Co., they have no opportunity and no liberty +to sell them to any one else. [J. Harper, 10,404; J. Walker, +15,999.] + +RESTRICTION OF FISHERMEN BY LETTING OF BEACHES + +A limitation of the freedom of the fishermen arises in some +districts where they are nominally free, from the beaches and +fishing stations being let to particular curers, so that other +merchants are excluded from the market; and even it would seem +the fishermen are disabled, by the want of a suitable beach for +drying their fish, from curing for themselves. There is not much +evidence on this matter, which was brought under my notice at a +late period of the inquiry by a statement made with regard to the +fishermen at Spiggie and Ireland, in Dunrossness. The Act 29 +Geo. II. c. 23 gives fishermen ample [Page 14 rpt.] powers to erect +all apparatus and booths necessary for curing their fish on waste +land within a hundred yards of high-water mark; but perhaps it +could not be held as Mr. J. Harrison seems to think, to prevent a +proprietor from enclosing and letting any part of his land adjacent +to the sea for the purposes of a curing establishment. + +[R. Henderson, 12,841; A. Irvine, 13,501; R. Mullay, 15,144; John +Robertson, jun., 15,159; John Harrison, 16,470; T.M. Adie, 5762; +Jas. Robertson, 8466; G. Gaunson, 8863; A. Sandison, <passim>; J. +Spence, <passim>; John Harrison, 16,470.] + +____________________________________ + +TRUCK SYSTEM-ADVANCES AND SETTLEMENTS. + +The existing Truck Act (as well as the Bill now before Parliament) +prohibits the payment of wages in goods in the various trades to +which it applies. Even, therefore, if fishermen formed one of the +classes of workmen falling under the Act, they would not be +protected by it, because they do not receive wages, but are paid a +price for their fish. One result of this is, that Truck, as it exists in +Shetland, is without disguise or concealment. No machinery has +been contrived for evading the law; and almost all the masters, and +even some of the fishermen, regard the system which prevails, as +wholesome, natural, and indeed inevitable. + +I have already explained that the price of the fish is ascertained +and settled only for once in the year. But fishermen, as Adam +Smith remarks, have been poor since the days of Theocritus; +and in Shetland the Truck system begins when, his farm produce +failing to support the family, the fisherman farmer finds it +necessary to obtain from the 'merchant' supplies or advances +before the time of settlement, and, it may be, a boat, fishing +materials, and provisions, to enable him to prosecute his calling. +In Shetland the merchant needs to use no influence or compulsion +to bring the fisherman to his shop. He has no black-list, and has to +enforce no penalties for 'sloping.' As the laws against Truck do +not apply to him, even remotely, he scarcely ever seeks to conceal +the fact that the earnings of those whom he employs are paid to a +large extent, in goods, and he is even prepared with arguments in +vindication of the practice. The man whose farm cannot keep +his family until settlement, comes, as a matter of course, to the +fish-curer's store; and even the thriving and prosperous man, who +has money in the bank, 'almost invariably' has an account at the +shop. In the great majority cases there is a mutual understanding, +that when a merchant buys your fish, you ought in fairness to get at +least a part of your goods at his shop. + +[Andrew Tulloch, 509; L. Mail, 568; W. Williamson, 855; P.M. +Sandison, 5146; Rev. D. Miller, 5998; J. Brown, 7986, 7997; T.M. +Adie, 5633; 5735; A. Tulloch, 5472, 5501; John Anderson, 6546; +G. Robertson, 9311; G. Gilbertson, 9557; J. Laurenson, 9837; M. +Henderson, 9830-1; J. Harper, 10,387; C. Nicolson, 11,939; A. +Abernethy, 12,268; L. Garriock, p. 303a etc., 12,347, 12,356, +12,360, 12,388 sq.; T. Hutchison, 12,686; L. Henderson, 12,744; +J. Halcrow, 13,090; R. Simpson, 13,980; John Robertson, jun., +15169.] + +'There is a tacit understanding' says the Rev D. Miller, 'at +least that they must do that; but I believe that is induced by the +circumstance, that for a large portion of the year their money is in +the merchants' hands, and that again affords the kind of facility for +running into debt which I have spoken of.' +'5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they +otherwise would do?-I think so.' +'6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The +remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as +possible and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state +how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the +fisherman's money is all in the merchant's hands; but he is +requiring goods in the meantime and he has money to procure +them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures his +goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his own +price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where there is +a credit system like the present, there are a large number of +defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the +merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men +have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on +his business unless that were done. He must have his losses +covered; and a system of that sort tells very heavily upon the +public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of +profit.' + +The existence of such an understanding is sometimes denied, as by +Mr. Pole, a merchant; but he evidently means only that there is no +expressed bargain or arrangement. He adds, at the same time +(speaking of the women employed at so much per ton in collecting +kelp, who, like every other class of people in Shetland, have +similar accounts), that they take a considerable part of their wages +in goods: + +'5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these +women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their +wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No, +there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that +they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.' +'5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft +goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.' +'5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to +those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.' +'5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with you?-Yes.' + +A very observant and shrewd witness, speaking of the lobster and +oyster trade, in which he is engaged, says: + +[Page 15 rpt.] + +'11,817. I understood you to say that when the men come with +oysters and lobsters to the shop, and were paid, they generally took +away some supplies from the shop?-They generally do, but they +are not asked to do it.' +'11,818. Do they appear to think it a fair and proper thing that they +should do so?-I think they do.' +'11,819. Is that a common sort of feeling, among the men?-Yes, +it is it common feeling in the country.' +'11,820. In short, they apologize if they don't spend the money in +the shop where they get it?-Something like that. I should not say +that they apologize, but sometimes they tell me what they want the +money for, and they say they have to take it away. Of course they +are not asked to leave it.' +'11,821. But there seems to be it kind of understanding that they +are to spend part of their earnings in the shop?-The people seem +to have the opinion that they ought to do that.' +'11,822. And I suppose the merchant has some feeling of the same +kind also?-I never ask them to spend the money in the shop; but +of course we are glad to get what money we can.' +'11,823. I suppose they don't require to be asked to spend some of +it?-No.' + +[W. Harcus, 11,817.] + +CASH ADVANCES + +There is a reluctance on the part of the men to ask for an advance +of cash, arising partly from the feeling I have mentioned, and +partly from the habitual and natural reluctance of the merchant to +give it. When cash is given, it is for a special purpose, such as the +payment of rent or taxes, or the purchase of some article which the +merchant himself cannot supply. + +[P. Peterson, 6845; J. Laurenson, 9872; W.G. Mouat, 10,249; C. +Nicholson, 11,977; l. Garriock, 12,589; J. Robertson, 8484; T. +Robertson, 8597, J. Harrison, 16,509.] + +'4973. Does Mr. Grierson advance you money in the course of the +year before settlement when you ask for it?-He does.' +'4974. Can you not take that money and deal with it at any other +store that suits you better than Mr. Grierson's?-We do that very +often.' +'4975. Then how is it that you say that you have not the means of +dealing where you choose?-What I mean by that is, that we don't +have the chance to do it so often as we would like to do it; and we +don't like to be always running to him for money for the small +things we require. It is only in particular cases, when we require it +pound or so to help us, that we ask it from him.' + +[James Flawes, 4973-5.] + +'8522. You say you were not bound to do it: is it common for +men to feel that they are bound to do that?-Of course. If I was +employed by a curer or a merchant, and had been in the habit of +dealing with another before I was employed by him, I would +consider it something like a duty, in a moral point of view, to put my +money into his shop; and I have done so, although I have never +been obligated to do it.' + +[P. Blanch, 8522.] + +In some cases the evidence shows that cash advances during the +season have been absolutely refused, or that at least it is thought +useless to ask for them. Thus, says Malcolm Malcolmson: + +'3004. Did you consider yourselves bound to take goods from +Mouat's store?-We could not do anything else.' +'3005. Why?-Because we had no money to purchase them with +from other stores. We received no money during the fishing +season.' +'3006. Did you ever ask for advances of money during the fishing +season?-Yes; but they were refused.' +'3007. Why?-Because he just would not give it. He gave no +reason, except that he could not give it.' + +[M. Malcolmson.] +[W. Manson, 3040; J. Nicholson, 8747.] + +The merchant, both in Faroe fishing and ling fishing, naturally +prefers to make any necessary advances in goods rather than +money: + +.. 'They make advances, perhaps before, but as soon the men +engage to go to the fishing. It may be about this time, or it may +be a month previous to this, when they make the engagement to +go.' +'8526. And they make an advance then either in cash or in +out-takes?-I don't think they will likely give much cash. They +may give 8s. or 10s. in cash; but unless they know the man is to be +depended upon, I don't think they will give much more. They may +give £1 to a man until he has made some earning by his fishing; +but unless it is a case where they know it can be paid back again +by the man otherwise, they will not give it. He may pay it out of +his stock, for instance, or he may have some other means.' + +[Peter Blanch.] + +It was common in the past-though now cash is given more +readily, at least in Lerwick and by the leading merchants-to +refuse money before settlement, while the merchant was quite +willing to advance to any reasonable amount in goods. This +preference is sometimes shown very unmistakeably even in +settling for the winter fish. This applies to Faroe still more than +to ling fishing. + +[W. Williamson, 821, 833; C. Sinclair, 1177; A. Tulloch, 5495; J. +Anderson, 6550; J. Goodlad, 1188; J, Manson, 2962.] + +The truth as to cash advances is very succinctly stated by a large +employer, Mr. John Anderson of Hillswick, who says: 'I think they +would not get cash (before settlement) unless they were clear, or unless +we had good cause to know that they were really in +necessity for something.' + +[J. Anderson, 6546; A. Sandison, 7076; J. Robertson, 8484; T. Hutchison, 12,637.] + +But although witnesses do not speak of many cases of actual +refusal to advance money before settlement, it is well understood +that the merchant, to whom the men look for more or less liberal +support in bad seasons, prefers to make advances in goods. The +Shetland peasant is quick to comprehend and act upon such a +feeling; and hence the understanding is almost universal that cash +is asked for only within [Page 16 rpt.] very moderate limits, even +by unindebted men, and the particular purpose for which it is +wanted is generally specified. + +There are, of course, differences in the readiness with which cash +is advanced by the various merchants, as the returns made to me +show. Thus there is unanimous testimony to the fact, that Mr. +John Bruce, jun., whose 'bondage' and prices were most loudly +complained of, never refuses money advances before settlement, +when asked, to the full amount of the fish at a man's credit, and, in +the case of a good man, to any reasonable amount he may ask for. +In some places, advances are mostly made at the settlement of the +previous year, to men who have got as much money as they +require. + +[L. Smith, 4457, 4486; H. Gilbertson, 4533; G. Leslie, 4629; R. +Halcrow, 4676; A. Leslie, 4885; G. Williamson, 4905; J. Bruce, +Jun., 13,322; G. Irvine, 13, 162; J.L. Pole, 9391.] + +The effect of the long settlements in compelling men to deal at the +merchant's shop is very clear to the men themselves, although they +do not appear to regard it as a great hardship, except where the +goods at a particular shop are of bad quality or high price. William +Goudie says: + +'4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr. +Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking.' +'4299. What do you mean by "not strictly speaking?"-In one sense +we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no +rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as +we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly +expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us. +That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop.' +.....'We cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has +no profit from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able +to clear that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run +heavy accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our +crops are a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce.' + +[Wm. Goudie, 4928, 4307.] +[L. Smith, 4480, 4488.] + +And another witness says: + +'4669. But if the prices are so much higher at the Boddam shop +than elsewhere, why do you go there when you say you are not +obliged in any way to take goods from the Boddam shop? Why do +you not go to Gavin Henderson's for them?-I am obliged to go to +the Boddam shop and take my goods there if I have no money in +my pocket to buy them elsewhere.' +'4670. Does that often happen?-Perhaps not very often with me, +but it happens as a general thing among many of the men. I +believe there are as many men who have to go to Mr. Bruce's store +and take their goods there, in consequence of the want of money to +pay for them at other places, as there are who can go and open +accounts with other merchants and pay them yearly' + +[R. Halcrow, 4669.] + +MEN MUST DEAL AT CURER'S SHOP + +The main reason why men must deal with the fish-curer is, +that most of them have neither money nor credit elsewhere. The +fish-curer is secured in the fisherman's services for the fishing +season, and holds his earnings in his hands for a year. He cannot +lose by him, unless he voluntarily allows his 'out-takes' to exceed +his earnings. But other shopkeepers have no such security; indeed +they know that the man is already engaged to fish for a rival +shopkeeper, and that the latter will not only pay himself for his +possibly large account, but will also retain the man's rent, leaving +for other creditors at best but a small balance, and not always a +balance, of his earnings. Add to this that in bad seasons many +fishermen depend on the merchants for larger advances than one +season's fishing can repay, and it becomes apparent that the +attraction to the merchant's shop is not only the possibility of +present credit, but gratitude for past favours, and the certain +expectation of having to ask for similar favours in future. It is +quite true, as Mr. Irvine says, that 'one great drawback on a +Shetland business is fishermen's bad debts, and our chief study is +to limit the supplies when we know the men to be improvident; but +it is quite impossible to keep men clear when the fishing proves +unsuccessful.' And there is evidence that in bad seasons, such as +1868-69, merchants are expected to advance, and do advance, +large amounts in meal and other necessaries, and in cash for rent. +Where such advances are made, the fishermen are of course +bound, sometimes by a written obligation, to fish for their creditor +next season. + +[M. Johnson, 7909, 7921, 7928; James Brown, 7977; C. +Georgeson, 12,126; James Hay, 5401; W. Irvine, 3623, p. 83b +3793; A. Sandison, 10,016; J. Hay, 10,540; A.J. Grierson, 15,089; +W. Irvine, 3796.] + +The habit of dealing on credit at the fish-curer's store is so +inveterate, that even men who have means to buy their provisions, +etc., frequently begin the account for the year at the very time of +settlement. Mr. Grierson says: + +'15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear +at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I +settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a £10 +note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with +me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year. +But he would never think of having a permanent running balance with me if +he had money of his own in bank.' +'15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit +some of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?- +Yes, I believe they do that for a single year. They would be great +fools if they did not. They keep a pass-book, if they choose, with, +the shop, and they would be no better off if they were to pay for +their goods in money.' + +[A.J. Grierson, 15,096.] + +[Page 17 rpt.] + +'Plenty of them,' says Mr. Peter Garriock, speaking of Faroe +fishers, 'are able to live on their own resources, but still they come +for their supplies;'and he gives an example, which is not a solitary +one. Mr. John Harrison says: + + ... 'The system has obtained so long, of fishermen requiring +advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see, or do not +understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy +the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have +no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a +sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they +have a right to keep their money and not to pay for them until the +end of the season.' + +[P. Garriock, 15,223; W.B.M. Harrison, 15,724; John Harrison, +16,511] + +It is of course a result of this system, that a large shop business, +in many districts, can be carried on only by one who has a +fish-curing establishment. In Lerwick and in Walls, in one case +in Dunrossness (Gavin Henderson), and perhaps in Unst, some +shops have succeeded without the aid of fishing, but always under +difficulties. Fish-curers have also attempted to confirm or extend +this monopoly by artificial means, such as the prohibition of rival +shops,-as in Burra, Whalsay, Unst, Northmaven, Fetlar , and Yell. + +[T. Williamson, 9463; G. Georgeson, 12,111; A. Sandison, +10,133.] + + It has thus come to pass that there is almost nowhere in +Shetland, out of Lerwick, a shop of any size not belonging to a +fish-curer. I attempted to ascertain the views of various small +shopkeepers, struggling to make a trade, with regard to their +larger neighbours. Sometimes these men did not understand the +disadvantage under which they are placed; or they may have had +views of eventually rising by the same means which have led +their competitors on to fortune; or, as there was sometimes +reason to suspect, they may have been put into business by a +larger merchant to sell his goods on commission, or have been +otherwise indebted to him or dependent upon him. Whatever may +be the cause, shopkeepers of this class are not so sensitive, or +not so communicative, on this point as might be expected. One +or two, however, were found independent enough, or intelligent +enough, to tell how their business is hampered and confined +by the local custom, which thirls the men to the shops of the +fish-merchants. Mr. Georgeson, a respectable shopkeeper in the +parish of Walls not engaged in fish-curing, says that men who sell +their fish green are necessarily less frequent customers of his than +those who cure their own fish. He thinks that the skipper generally +influences his men to take their supplies from the shop of the +merchant, or at least that the men are apt to be guided to do so by +his example; while his neighbour, Mr. Twatt, thinks 'there is a +little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to the +shop.' I give this, however, merely as an opinion by a shrewd but +not disinterested local observer. The force of custom, the want of +ready money, and the other influences already mentioned, are +quite sufficient to account for the great amount of this kind of +Truck which exists in Shetland, without having recourse to the +supposition that skippers or others are bribed to induce men to +buy goods at the employer's shop. + +[G. Georgeson, 12,122; J. Twatt, 12,200; R. Henderson, 12,860.] + +ARGUMENTS FOR PRESENT SYSTEM + +I have said that some of the employers are prepared with +arguments to vindicate the system of annual settlements. The +favourite argument is, that it affords the men, or at least a certain +class of them, protection against their own improvidence. For +instance, Mr. P.M. Sandison says: + +'5235. Does not that system of long settlements induce people to +be a little careless about their money, and improvident?-There +are a certain class who, if they had money, would spend it. That +class are pretty well looked after by the fish-curer; they are only +allowed advances in such small proportions as enable them to get +through the year, and to be as little in arrear as possible at the end. +If these same parties had the money in their hands, I am certain it +would not last them so long as it does in the fish-curer's hands.' +'5236. That is to say, he will only allow them certain amount of +supplies from the shop?-Yes, so much a week or a fortnight.' +'5237. Or cash if they want it, but to a limited extent?-Yes; I +should think that cash would be given to a free man.' +'5238. But not to a bound fisherman?-Not unless it was for a +necessary purpose-to purchase something, for instance, which +the merchant cannot supply.' + +[P. Smith, 986; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,372; W. Irvine, 3641, 3826; J. +Anderson, 6707; Rev. J. Sutherland, 7518; A. Harrison, 7664; T. +Gifford, 8102-8124; D. More, 9634; A. Sandison, p.248 f.n. to +10,205, 10,483; J. Spence, 10.559.] + +The members of the firm which holds the lands and fishings in +Unst urged strongly that only a large concern like theirs would +have the interests of the men in view as well as their own, and, by +possessing a monopoly and restricting the men's credit, keep them +free from debt. With this view they have made war against small +shops in that island. The returns show that they have not yet +succeeded in keeping the men free from debt. + +[A. Sandison, 10,494; J. Spence, 10,559.] + +The sort of partnership that exists between merchant and +fisherman, the latter being paid in proportion to the results of +the whole year's transactions, is the chief excuse for delaying +settlements. The views of the merchants on this point may be +seen from the following passage in the examination of Mr. +Robertson, manager for Mr. Leask, one of the chief merchants in +Shetland. Mr. Robertson came forward with other [Page 18 rpt.] +merchants for the purpose of denying the Report of Mr. Hamilton +to the Board of Trade, and the other statements made in the +previous inquiry:- + +... 'Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised +form prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any +other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in +contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don't +believe it.' +'13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000.' +'13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen +and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths +of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families.' +'13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of +the families?-Yes.' +'13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an +account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes; but I +don't consider that to be truck at all.' +'13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the +value of the man's fish being taken out in supplies of goods, and +the balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He +simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail +merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with +wholesale merchants, and have to pay them.' +'13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than +that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am +not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement.' +'13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of +the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people in +Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the +employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I +am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the +men got nothing but goods when they should have got money.' +'13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but +goods?-That is their own fault.' +'13,706. Still it may be the fact, although it is their own fault?-It +may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require +supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give +them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I +don't think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word.' +'13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about +the meaning of the word "truck" than as to the actual state of +matters in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don't think +there is any room for complaint about the state of matters in +Shetland, as a rule.' +'13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain +advantage by getting advances of goods? -Of course they have.' +'13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such +advances when they require them?- Of course I don't deny that; +but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on +the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good +thing in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather +short.' +'13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are +caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize +them until then. None of the fishcurers get one penny for their fish +until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very small +parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south.' +'13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a +better position?-Yes.' +'13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or +fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize +his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is +selling his butter and milk and cattle.' +'13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the +time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash.' +'13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who +are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes; +but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of +twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance +in the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the +end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies +out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from +the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to +whom he sells his fish.' +'13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long +settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is.' + +The real or imaginary necessity under which the men are placed, +of dealing at the merchant's shop, is demonstrated by their taking +meal and other bulky articles a distance of many miles to their +own houses, although there are shops nearer home where they could be +purchased of as good quality, and it would seem +sometimes better and cheaper. Thus James Hay says: + +'5343. Do you deal at his shop for all your provisions and your +purchases of cotton and other things?-I do for the principal part +of what I need, but not altogether.' +'5344. How far do you live from Mr. Adie's nearest shop?-About +71/2 miles; his shop is at Voe.' +'5345. Do you always go there for what you want?-Yes; generally +I do that, unless sometimes when I am needing some small things, +I may go to another: but I am not bound to go to his shop unless I +choose to go.' +'5346. Then why do you go so far?-Because I generally fish to +Mr. Adie, and I have the greatest part of my dealings with him. I +have not been accustomed to shift very much, unless it might be an +inconvenience to me, and sometimes I have gone to another +shop.'. . . +'5399. Are you under any obligation to go to Mr. Adie's shop for +the goods you want in the course of the year?-None that I am +aware of.' +'5400. You have never been told it of course; but is it a great deal +more convenient for you to go there than to deal at another +shop?-No; it is not more convenient. I could go to a shop +somewhat nearer; but still I don't think I would be any better; and +as it has always been my custom to go there, I just continue to go.' +'5401. Is it only because it is your custom to go, or is it because +you are in the way of delivering your fish to Mr. Adie, that you go +to his store?-Mr. Adie has been very obliging to me many a time, +by helping me when I could not help myself, and therefore I +always felt a warm heart towards him, and went to his store.' +'5402. But is it the way with the fishermen here, that they go to +the shop of the man that they sell their fish to?-I am not able to +speak to that except for myself.' +'5403. Do you not know what your neighbours do? -It depends on +the circumstances that my neighbours are in. If they are indebted +to the man they are fishing to, of course they will go to that man, +and perhaps have very little to go to him with.' +'5404. Are those neighbours of yours who are so indebted also +likely to engage to fish for the same the merchant during the +following season?-Yes. When a man is short of money, and has +not enough with [Page 19 rpt.] which to pay his land rent, he may +go to the man he is fishing to, and he will help him with what he +requires; but the understanding in that case is, that he will serve +him at the fishing for the rising year. That is generally the way it is +done.' +'5405. Do you mean that when a man gets advances at a +merchant's shop, it is understood that he must fish to him +in the coming year?-Yes; that is generally understood.' + +[James Hay, 5352 etc.; W. Green, 5860 (Voe to Sullom); W. +Blance, 6057, 6118 (Voe to Ollaberry); G. Scollay, 8417; J. +Robertson, 8454 (Muckle Roe to Hillswick); J. Johnston, 9552 +(Voe to Burravoe); T. Robertson, 8590.] + +So John Twatt, a merchant, says: + +'12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to +Reawick for supplies, although it is much farther away?-Yes.' +'12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient. +They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next +door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price +as they can at Reawick.' +'12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is +about 10 or 12 miles.' +'12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are +these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are +brought by boats, and sometimes round by the rocks.' + +BOATS AND FISHING MATERIALS. + +Advances by the fish-curer to fishermen, in the form of boats and +fishing materials, form a very material portion of the debits in the +men's accounts. For the most part the boats used in the ling +fishing belong to the men. It is generally understood that when a +crew gets a new boat, it is to be paid up in three years. Sometimes +a good fishing enables them to pay it the first year; more +frequently the payment extends beyond the three years-generally +for five fishing seasons. The price of the boat is charged against +the crew, which has a company account in the merchant's books, +and they are labourers jointly and severally liable for the whole. +When a boat is furnished, it is always understood that the men are +to continue to fish for the merchant who furnishes it until the +whole price is paid; and this of course constitutes a bond over the +men for three or more years, as the case may be. Sometimes hire +is charged for the boat, or for the boat and lines. A new boat, +ready for sea, costs £20; if supplied with new lines, the whole cost +will be from £35 to £40. The men agree to pay £6 as hire for boat +and lines, or £2 to £3 for the boat, for the period of the summer +fishing. In Yell and other places, the merchant, for this hire, +undertakes the risk of the whole. On the west coast of Shetland, +the rate charged as hire and the amount of the annual instalment of +the price of the boat and lines appear to be the same; and the lines, +if lost, are understood, it is said, to be at the risk of the men in both +cases, which is an inversion of the ordinary rule of law in location. +It is generally said that little or no profit is derived by merchants +from boat hires or the sale of boats. In some places, however, +those who are anxious to get into business make deductions from +the boat hire; in order to get men to agree to fish to depending +entirely for their profit on the fish and goods sold. Hence it may +be inferred, either that the hires charged are sufficient to +remunerate the merchant for his outlay and risk, or that the profits +made from the fish and goods sold are so large as to allow of this +bonus being given. + +[W. Irvine, 3838; T.M. Adie, 5607; T. Tulloch, 12,960; G. Irvine, +13,272; O. Jamieson, 13,396; P.M. Sandison, 5206; T.M. Adie, +5610; W. Pole, 5881, 5890, 5953; D. Greig, 7125, 7153, 7209; L. +Williamson, 9092; John Laurenson, 9856; T. Tulloch, 12,958; A. +Johnson, 14,933; T.M. Adie, 5638, 5642; P. Peterson, 6808; A. +Sandison, 10,133; C. Nicholson, 11,950; L. Williamson, 9092; T. +Williamson, 9514.] + +With regard to lines and hooks, and such things as the men require +for the fishing, they are bound or expected at most places to buy +them from the merchant for whom they fish. + +[J. Robertson, 8454; P. Blanch, 8717.] + +Turning from the debit to the credit side of the account between +the curer and the fisherman, the most important branch of the +latter is the price of the fish. This is fixed in Shetland only when +the annual sales of cured fish have been effected, <i.e.> in +September or October. The understanding is that the men shall get +the current price. This is not ascertained in any formal way; but as +there is little difference between the prices obtained by the various +curers, each calculates for himself how much he can afford to give +to the crews for the green fish, and pays accordingly. There is +always, of course, some knowledge, more or less vague and +general, of the prices obtained and given by other curers, and +there may be a consultation of some kind between the leading +merchants. In some cases, curers, especially those who are in a +small way, wait until the leading merchants have settled with their +men, and thus avoid questions with their men. In all cases the men +hear how much their neighbours have got for their green fish; and +it may be supposed that there is sufficient competition for men to +ensure that the highest possible sum will be given. The fishermen +themselves, however, do not seem to be satisfied of this, and there +is an impression among some of them that 'the current price' of +green fish is fixed by arrangement among the merchants at a lower +rate than they might afford. This belief has originated, or has been +encouraged, by the fact that the dealers of Cunningsburgh, in +Sandwick parish, have for some years paid considerably more than +'the current price.' In 1871, the usual payment to fishermen was +8s. per cwt. of wet fish, which was thus ascertained: 21/4 cwt. of +wet fish are calculated to produce [Page 20 rpt.] cwt dry. The +current price of dry fish was 23s. per cwt.; cost of curing is usually +estimated at 2s. 6d. per cwt. dry (or by Mr. Irvine at 3s.). Thus:- + + Price of 21/2- cwt. wet ling, at 8s., 18s. 0d. + Cost of curing, at 2s. 6d., 2s. 6d. + Merchants' profit and commission, 2s. 6d., 2s. 6d. + Total, 23s. + +or about 11 per cent.* Merchants say that the cost of curing is +actually greater than 2s. 6d. per cwt., and that their profit has to +cover not only the risk of bad debts and insurance, but likewise +a loss upon boat hires and sales, which never remunerate. +Fishermen, on the other hand, assert that curing never costs so +much as 2s. 6d. per cwt.; and they appeal, in support of this, not only +to their experience in curing their own fish, but to the higher +rates paid by Messrs. Smith & Tulloch in Sandwick parish The +reply, as regards these merchants, is that they sell to retail +merchants direct, and thus save profit of the middlemen or +wholesale purchasers; but there is evidently a feeling of irritation +among other fishcurers, because they have broken in upon the +practice of paying a uniform price throughout the islands. A +similar question with regard to the cost of curing has been raised +in the Faroe fishing. + +[L.F.U. Garriock, 12,581; W. Irvine, 3742; J.L. Pole, 9423; J. +Bruce, jun., 13,332; J. Flawes, 4919; A.J. Grierson, 15,105; L. +Williamson, 9085; A. Sandison, 10,154; L. Williamson, 9097; T. +Williamson, 9515, 9536; L. Mail, 662; R. Halcrow, 4694; G. +Blance; 5561; A. Sandison, 7062; J. Nicholson, 8721; J. Flawes, +4990; J.S. Houston, 9673; W. Irvine, 3623; W. Pole, 5882 sqq.; +J.S. Houston, 9698; A. Sandison, 10,125; W. Robertson, 13, 646; +L.F.U. Garriock, 12,565.] + + Some men complain because they do not know what they are +to get for their fish and that they 'work away as if they were blind;' +but it is said on in a few cases where a price has been fixed at the +beginning of the season and the price that has risen, the men have +grumbled, and the curer has been obliged to pay the higher current +price in order to retain the future services of the men. There is +not, however, sufficient evidence to justify the conclusion that +Shetland fishermen would, as a body, resent a merchant's +adherence to a bargain which on other occasions must turn out to +be a favourable one for themselves and a losing one for him. If +there is any advantage in the present system, it is, as the Rev. Mr. +Fraser points out, on the side of the fisherman, who is less able +than the merchant to foresee the probable course of the market, +and who, if the suggested change were adopted, would have to +take, in the run of cases, such a price as the merchant might judge +safe for himself. + +[James Hay, 5375; A.J. Grierson, 15,081; P. Garriock, 15,228; J. S. +Houston, 9862; A. Sandison, 10,009; Rev. J. Fraser, 8071, but see P. +Blanch, 8546.] + + *CURERS' PROFITS. + +Mr. Irvine (3623) says the prices of last year leave only +40s. per ton to the curer, out of which he has to pay store rent, +weighing, skippers' fees, gratuities to fishermen, and to meet loss +by small and damaged fish, and of interest and risk. The total +quantity of cod, ling, and hake landed from open boats and cured +in Shetland in the year ending 31st December 1871, according +to the returns made to the Fisheries Board, was 46,391 cwt. +If we suppose that the expenses which are to be paid out of the +fishcurers' 2s. per cwt. amount to 6d. per cwt., there remains a +sum of £3479, 6s. 8d., as the total profit earned by thirty-seven +fish-curers and fish-curing firms. If we suppose that these +expenses absorb 1s. of this surplus, then the total profit amounts +only to £2319, 11s. It may be observed, however that other +sources of profit are open to these fish-curers. All of them have +shops, in which the aggregate credit sales to fishermen amounted +in the year 1871 (from settlement to settlement) to probably +£14,000. A considerable amount of cash transactions, and sales of +goods for butter and eggs, also take place at their counters; and +many of them deal in cattle and kelp, and are engaged in the Faroe +fishing. With all these sources of income, however, it is difficult +to believe that no larger direct profit per cent. is earned from so +complicated and hazardous a business as the ling fishing. + +STOCK SOLD TO MERCHANTS + +Next to fish, cattle sold form the largest and most common credit +in the account of the fisherman farmer, although this is not, +like fish, an indispensable item in the account. Cattle, ponies, +sheep, and pigs, are an important part of the Shetlander's means, +and they, like the rest of his saleable produce, are generally +purchased by the merchant, who buys all that leaves the country, +from a whale to an egg, and sells everything that the country +people want, from a boll of meal or a suit of clothes to a +darning-needle. The stock goes into the account, and is settled for +at the yearly settlement. There is a custom throughout the country +of holding public sales twice, sometimes four times in the year +'for the benefit of the tenant' as a witness puts it' but also for the +benefit of the landlords and merchants. The sales are managed by +the proprietor of the estate for which they are held, or by his +tacksman or factor, and the prices of all the animals sold are paid, +under the conditions of sale, into his hands. He has thus, just as in +purchasing the fish of his tenants, an opportunity of retaining what +is due to him for rent, and of making effectual his hypothec, or +rather of avoiding the necessity of enforcing it at all. No cases +have been alleged or proved in which advantage has been taken by +proprietors or merchants of the power given them by their +position, or by the indebtedness of tenants, for the purpose of +getting cattle at low prices; and, indeed, the publicity of these sales +to be a sufficient safeguard against such abuses. There is a +practice, formerly much more widely prevalent than it is now, of +marking the horns of animals with the initials of a creditor, which +is supposed to hypothecate the debtor's cattle effectually as against +all but the landlord's claim for rent. The practical effects appear +to have been formerly injurious; <e.g.>, a well-informed and +reliable witness says that, twenty years ago, when a merchant +bought a beast from one of his debtors, he could really fix the +price himself. [Page 21 rpt.] But the practice seems now to be so +rare, probably because its legal inefficacy is better understood, +that it need not be more particularly referred to. + +[J. Laurenson, 9873; T. Gifford, 8133; A. Sandison, 10,079.] + +There is evidence as to the sales of cattle on the Sumburgh, +Busta, Gossaburgh, and Ollaberry estates, and in the islands +of Unst and Yell. A man who is in debt to the landlord or +merchant-tacksman is expected to offer his cow or pony which is +for sale to him first. If the owner is dissatisfied with the price +offered, he has an opportunity of exposing it at the next half-yearly +or quarterly sale, where all the money passes through the hands of +the merchant or landlord, and is settled for at the end of the year, +the owner getting supplies from the shop if he requires them in the +meantime. Intimation is given to all the tenants of the sale; and a +man who is very deeply in debt is 'so far forced to bring his cattle +and sell them.' + +[W. Irvine, 3772; R. Halcrow, 4673; P.M. Sandison, 5271; D. +Greig, 7228; Rev. J. Sutherland, 7600; T. Gifford, 8130; J.S. +Houston, 9686; J. Laurenson, 9873; G. Irvine, 13,241; J. Bruce, +jun., 13,329; R. Halcrow, 4684.] + +An instance of a sale of wool to a merchant-tacksman by an +indebted tenant, at a lower price than might have been obtained +(according to the tenant's own statement), is given by Robert +Simpson: + +'14,014. Was 111/2d. the current price for wool last autumn?-I +cannot say. That was what we got for it from Mr. Sutherland.' +'14,015. Did anybody else offer to buy it from you?-We did not +offer it to anybody else, because we thought he had a better right +to it, as he was paying the rent. There were several people asking +me for it, but I would not sell it to them.' +'14,016. How much did they offer you for the wool?-We never +came to any particular agreement about the price, because I would +not consent to sell it to them at all.' +'14,017. Did they not say anything about what they would give +you?-They spoke of 1s.; but I thought it better to sell it for 111/2d. +wholesale than to sell it to them for 1s., even although I had had +power to do it. Besides, I thought Mr. Robertson had the best right +to it.' +'14,018. Had Mr. Robertson told you that he expected to get your +wool?-I cannot say that he had.' +'14,019. Had Mr. Sutherland told you that?-If I could have paid +my debt he would not have asked it.' +'14,020. But did Mr. Sutherland tell you that he expected to get +your wool?-Sometimes he would ask me if I would give him the +wool, and that I would be better to give it to him than to sell it to +another.' +'14,021. Even at a halfpenny less?-Yes.' + +This is probably a true enough picture of the transactions in regard +to cattle, which in bad times are still commonly resorted to for the +purpose of reducing large debts; but of which, in the late +prosperous years, little has been heard. + + +________________________________ + +THE EXTENT OF INDEBTEDNESS. +ADVANCES ARE MADE UPON AN ENGAGEMENT TO FISH. + +The evidence taken in Shetland does not confirm the statement +made before this Commission in 1871, that 'the success of a +merchant in Shetland consists in being able to accumulate such an +amount of bad debts about him as will thirl the whole families in +his neighbourhood, and then he succeeds,' etc. So far as this +exaggerated statement has any truth, it may be said to mean that a +merchant often avails himself of the power given him by his past +advances, and by the hope of more, to secure both the fish and the +shop custom of the fishermen in his neighbourhood; while +fishermen so often need accommodation from the merchants, that +even those who for the time are clear do not think it prudent to +break off their connection with the merchant of the place from +whom they have hitherto got supplies, and by whom they expect +to be assisted in future bad years. But it does not mean, and +probably was not intended to mean, that merchants ever +deliberately sink a part of their capital in binding fishermen to +them by the uqestionable bond of hopeless debt. The truth, so far +as the highest class of merchants is concerned, seems to be fairly +stated by Mr. Irvine, who says, with regard to the system of paying +for fish by reference to the current price, that - + +'Fishermen are quite safe with this arrangement. They know the +competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that +they are secure to get the highest possible price that the markets +can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the +fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the +following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited +capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by +giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing +to themselves, and in the end come to grief.' + +[John Walker, qu. 44,319; W. Irvine, 3623, 3856 sqq.; See L. +Williamson, 9092; T. Williamson, 9513.] + +Undoubtedly, all the merchants are in the habit of making +advances to fishermen, chiefly in the form of goods, long before +the fishing season begins. In such cases there is, as a matter of +course, an obligation, sometimes in writing, to fish for the ensuing +year; and for the purpose of more easily getting such advances, +boats' crews are often formed as early as November and +December. Advances of boats and lines are invariably made upon +an engagement by the men who get them to deliver their fish. +[Page 22 rpt.] But many of the merchants examined as witnesses +agree in stating that indebtedness does not give them a hold over +their men; a statement which must, however, be limited to the case +of men who are hopelessly and irredeemably sunk in debt, who see +no means of escape from it, or rather no means of obtaining +supplies beyond the barest subsistence, but by removing to another +employment. A merchant is not always desirous to retain the +services of such men, because his chance of getting the old debts +repaid is small, while he cannot continue to employ them without +making further advances to enable them to go on with the fishing. +The statements made by merchants, that indebtedness is the great +drawback to their business, that indebted men are worst to deal +with, and that debt gives them no control over the men, must, I +think, be referred to such extreme cases only, and are not +applicable to the relations between merchants and men who, not +of being already hopelessly involved, require some advances in +money for rent, in the form of boat and lines, or in goods for +family use, after settlement and before the fishing season begins. +In all such cases the debt is incurred on the express or understood +condition that the man shall deliver his fish next season, and where +the advance consists of boat and lines, until it is altogether paid +off. To this extent it cannot be said that the debt gives the +merchant no hold over the men. + +EFFECT OF DEBT IN BINDING THE MEN TO A MERCHANT +ENGAGEMENT BETWEEN MERCHANTS ON WEST COAST NOT TO +INTERFERE WITH EACH OTHER'S MEN + +In districts where indebtedness is general, the bond formed by debt +is stronger. Merchants are there obliged to save themselves by +enforcing their claims against indebted men, whom others, in more +fortunate districts, would gladly get rid of. The merchants +have allowed their debts to become too numerous and too large, +either from a wrong system in the management of their business or +from a desire to 'thirl' the west side men to them. On the coast of +Northmaven and of Delting, a complete monopoly of the fish trade +is possessed, not by landholders or their tacksmen or factors, but +by three merchants (Messrs. Adie at Olnafirth Voe, Inkster at Brae, +and Anderson at Hillswick and Ollaberry), who lease curing +premises and a small portion of agricultural or pasture land from +the Busta trustees. Except at North Roe, where Messrs. Hay have +a station, there is no other merchant, along a coast-line extending +for many miles, to whom the tenant can sell his fish; and the +indebted man has not the liberty, which he seems to be able to +exercise in some other districts, of entering into an engagement +with another merchant, with whom he begins afresh, with clear +books, and the hope of keeping clear. I do not say that it is +morally wrong for the merchant to endeavour to secure payment +of a debt by requiring the debtor to agree to deliver to him the +produce of his fishing. But it cannot be a wholesome system +which has led the merchants into giving credits, which they can +only recover or secure by such means, and which induces them to +enter into a formal written engagement among themselves-'not +to tamper with or engage each other's fishermen, or allow our +boat-skippers or men to do so, or to make advances of rent to them +on their cattle, sheep, or ponies, or under any circumstances +whatever, unless they produce a certificate from any of us whom +they last fished for to the effect that he is clear of debt.' The +formal stipulation thus undertaken is only what has been very +frequently, not universally, acted upon throughout the western and +northern parts of Shetland; for men changing their employment +often find at settlement the debts due to their late master standing +against them in the books of the new master. Sometimes in +coming to a new employer the men's debts are, with their consent, +transferred to his books, or they get cash to discharge them. + +[Wm. Adie, 8641; J. Anderson, 7775; M. Laurenson, 7354; A. +Harrison, 7746; T. Gifford, 8126; J. Wood, 8371; M. Henderson, +9940; A. Sandison, 10,497; T. Tulloch, 13,001; C. Ollason, +16,019; John Robertson, sen., 14,126; L. Williamson, 9074.] + + The fishermen, on the other hand, for the most part admit that, so +long as they are indebted to a merchant, they must continue to fish +for him. Notwithstanding the statements of the merchants before +referred to (see above), the truth appears to be that most of them +do so continue from honesty as much as from fear of onsequences. +But, so far as the practical effects of the system are concerned, it is +perhaps of small importance whether supplies are given in the +belief that a man's honesty and his fear of legal execution will +make him continue to work them off by his labour, or in the belief +that his fear of legal consequences alone will have such an effect. + +[G. Blance, 5554; C. Young, 5829; P. Blanch, 8575; C. Nicholson, +8694.] + +Some merchants do not hesitate to admit that being indebted +compels, or at least induces, men to fish to the creditor; and, +indeed, it is so obviously and naturally an inducement to do so, +that it is impossible to avoid regarding indebtedness to the +merchant and the engagement to fish for him as more than a +merely accidental sequence of events. Experience, however, has +been teaching the more extensive merchants, and teaching them +perhaps more readily because they have less difficulty than others +in getting fishermen, that free or unindebted men are the most +successful fishermen; and that to act on the old Shetland maxim, +'If you once get a man into debt, you have a hold over him,' is to +fill their boats with inferior or at least half-hearted men, and their +books with bad debts. Thus the returns show that at two important +stations of a leading firm 244 men were employed in 1867, and +260 in 1871; and that of these, 72, or less than a third, owed sums +averaging only £2, 7s. 9d. at the settlement of 1867; while in 1871 +only 9 owed sums averaging £l. In this and other cases, where +debt is less, the supplies of goods also bear a less proportion to the +money payments. + +[L.F.U. Garriock, 12,549; T. Tulloch, 12,998; J. Harrison, 16451; +Rev. D. Miller, 5596; D. Greig, 7165.] + +The extent of indebtedness thus differs in the different districts. It +is difficult to say whether this difference is caused by accidental +circumstances, or by the degrees of firmness with which the +various merchants act on the principle of restricting advances and +supplies when a man is getting behind. In bad years still more +after a succession of lean fishings and harvests restriction is of +course universal, and all the inhabitants of an island or a parish +may be getting weekly doles of meal at the merchant's shop. +At Grutness store, a day is fixed for the families who are 'on +allowance' to come for their meal. The proportion of men in a +state of indebtedness, and the amount of their debts, will be best +seen from the tables afterwards given. There are, however, many +general statements on this subject which I shall briefly refer to. In +considering these and the tables, it must be kept in view that, in +spite of some bad fishings and harvests in late years, the people are +generally in a more thriving condition than they were ten or fifteen +years ago. They have shared in the general prosperity of the +empire. The Rev. Mr. Miller, who says that the majority of the +fishermen at Mossbank are further in debt than they can hope to +pay in one year, believes that they were once worse, and that eight +or ten years ago hardly a fisherman was not in debt. The Rev. J. +Fraser of Sullom believes that a great number of the men are very +seldom clear, and that permanent indebtedness prevails to a much +larger extent than is good for the community. It must be admitted +that the sums due by the men are much smaller in Shetland than +the sums which, it is said, are often due by fishermen in Wick, +where the boats and nets advanced to the men are comparatively +expensive. In a few cases, debts of £40 have been contracted; but +that seems to be a rare and indeed is considered a hopeless +amount. The returns show that the average debt of chronic +debtors, so far as it can be ascertained, is very much less. Mr. +Anderson states it to be £12. 4s. in 1871 at Hillswick, having been +£14, 2s. in 1868. The witnesses are numerous-so numerous that +it is not necessary to note their names-who say that they have +been in debt at settlement for many years, or that the balance is +generally against them. + +[T. Hutchison, 12,640; L. Robertson, 13,966; G. Irvine, 13,178; +Rev. D. Miller, 5989; Rev. J. Fraser, 8019; A. Harrison, 7446; J. +Anderson, 7770, 7835; A. Humphray, 12,822; J. Anderson, 7834.] + +It is almost superfluous to point out the connection between the +system of accounts at the shops and the general indebtedness of +the peasantry; but it may be interesting to refer to the evidence of +Magnus Johnston, now a small shopkeeper, and formerly skipper +of a Faroe smack. He says: + +'... I think it would be better for the people to have no accounts at +all.' +'7932. Do you mean that it would be better for their own sakes?- +Yes. + '7933. What would be the advantage to them?-For my own part, +if I had no money, but if I had credit, I might go to a shop and take +out more goods than perhaps I ought to do, without regard to +whether I would be able to pay them or not; whereas if a man did +not have that liberty, but went into a shop with only a few pence in +his pocket, he might make it spin out better, or more to his own +advantage. +'7934. Do you think he might get his meal cheaper by going to +another shop and paying for it in cash?-He might, or he might +take better care of his money, and manage to spin it out more.' +'7935. I suppose a merchant like yourself, if you were giving long +credit in that way, would require little more profit on your +goods?-Of course.' +'7936. But you can afford to sell cheaper because you are paid in +cash?-Yes; and I think it would be better for the public in general +if all payments were made in cash.' +[M. Johnson, 7931.] + +Again, Mr. James Hay, formerly a merchant in Unst, but never +concerned in fishcuring, says: + +'... My own conviction is, that if a ready-money system was once +in operation, and had a fair start, it would work better than the +present system.' +'10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that +if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that +would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they +would husband their means better; and if there were those among +them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson +when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for them +in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty in +beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present +will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed +by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously +and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him. +At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the +ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty.' +'10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly +payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just +as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would.' +'10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on advantageous +terms?-I think he would.' +'10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to +respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it was +absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes.' +'10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give +credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for +next season?-I should suppose so.' +'10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one +shop?-Yes, it comes to that.' +'10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly, +and you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a +merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him credit +for the support of his family?-I would have no hesitation in doing +that at all, and I have done it. ....' +'10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain +repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was +not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because if +the men were paid their money I think they would feel more +independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the +most economical way, and thus be better off.' +'10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so +very much in debt with any merchant as they are at present?-I +think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash +payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could +not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in +cases of urgent necessity.' + +[J. Hay, 10,527; See also J. Anderson, 6537, Dr. R. Cowie, +14,731.] + +SETTLEMENTS AND PASS-BOOKS + +The accounts between merchants and fishermen are settled in a +sufficiently loose manner. In many cases no pass-book is kept. +Sometimes it has been refused by the shopkeeper on account of +the trouble; sometimes it is the fisherman who could not be +'fashed' with it; sometimes it has been used for a time and given +up because of the customer's irregularity in bringing it. There is +undoubtedly much carelessness among the men with regard to +their accounts. They get what they want without much trouble. +The merchant or landlord helps them through bad times; and they +do not always minutely scrutinize the items charged against them. +They have a considerable, and probably not misplaced, confidence +in the honesty of the shopkeeper, so far as the quantities of their +'out-takes' are concerned. Some men indeed keep private notes of +their out-takes, which they compare with the shop ledger when +read over to them; but most trust to their memory to check their +accounts, and sometimes they are in a hurry to get home, and the +ceremony of reading over the account is omitted altogether. The +shopkeeper of course does not insist on doing so: in some places, +indeed, it is read over only if expressly asked. William Blance, +who fishes to the firm of T.M. Adie, is a specimen of the more +careless class of men: + +'... There are somethings which you have got which are not put in +here?-Yes; I have gone to the shop when I did not have my book, +and I have got what I asked.' +'6086. What goods you got in that way when you did not have your +pass-book were all put down in Mr. Adie's book, and you +remembered about them when you came to settle?-Sometimes, +and sometimes not.' +'6087. If you did not remember them, did you trust to the honesty +of the shopkeepers?-Yes.' + '6088. Is your account read over to you at settling time?-Yes, if I +ask it to be done.' +'6089. Do you generally ask it?-Sometimes I do not, if I am in a +hurry to get home.' + '6090. Then you have perfect confidence in their honesty?-I +always think it would do more harm to them than to me if they +were not honest ....' + '6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use +comes from there.' +'6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the +meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book +about with me.' +'6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen +to Ollaberry direct.' +'6122. How much of it was there of it at a time?-I don't +remember ....' +'6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say.' +'6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up.' +'6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't +remember.' +'6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago.' +'6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?- No, I had it +with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr. +Adie to look over the pass-book.' +'6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes.' +'6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No.' +'6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No.' + +[J. Hay, 5370; L. Mail, 690; J. Leask, 1348; G. Colvin, 1340; W. +Irvine, 3668, 3778; W. Goudie, 4333; G. Goudie, 5402; P.M. +Sandison, 5169; G. Blance, 5574; P. Peterson, 6790; T. Robertson, +8619; G. Garriock, 8828; J.L. Pole, 9359; J. Laurenson, 9827; G. +Tulloch, 11,441; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,295; G. Irvine, 13,176, +13,267; W. Robertson, 13,791; R. Simpson, 13,990; Wm. Blance, +6085, 6119.] + +The effect of the prevailing indebtedness plainly is to make the +men careless about prices: + +'8698. What is the price of meal at Mossbank just now?-I cannot +say rightly.' +'8699. When did you know last? Have you made your settlement +this year?-Yes.' +'8700. Don't you know what you were charged for meal then?- +No.' +'8701. Do you ask the price of your meal as you buy it?- +Sometimes; but we must take it, whatever it is, because we have +no money to purchase it with elsewhere.' +'8702. Whose fault is that?-I don't know.' +'8703. Is it the merchant's fault?-I cannot say that it is.' +[C. Nicholson, 8698.] + +THE RETURNS AND TABLES. + +It was for the purpose of ascertaining the area and degree of debt, +as well as the degree to which truck prevails in the various districts +of Shetland, that a series of questions was sent, some time after the +inquiry had been opened, to most of the fish-merchants in +Shetland. The answers to these questions must have cost in the +larger establishments a good deal of time and trouble, which I am +bound to say was in most cases ungrudgingly bestowed. The +returns for the home fishing of 1867 (Table I.) are furnished by +merchants, who, according to the returns made to the Fishery +Board, produced more than four-fifths of the whole cure from that +fishery in that year. They show that out of 1913 fishermen in their +employment, 596 were indebted at the settlement of 1866, and +1832 at that of 1867, showing an average debt of £6, 11s. per man +in 1866, and £6, 13s. 8d. per man in 1867. In the same year the +total sum due to their fishermen by the eighteen curers making +returns was £19,362, 17s. 23/4d., and the total amount received by +the men from the curers was £21,456, 5s. 10d., which resulted, +according to the 10th column, in an increase of the debt by £1,631, +9s. 8d. The goods supplied in account by these curers to fishermen +in 1867 amounted to £10,860, 1s. 41/2d., rather more than a fourth +being charged to the crews for fishing expenses. Thus rather more +than one half of the total payments were made in goods. + +The returns for 1871 (Table II.) were made by the same merchants, +with the exception of two who had not settled for that year, and +represent, according to the Fishery Board returns, nearly three +fourths of the total cure of the year. Out of 1615 fishermen, 644 +were indebted in a total amount of £5,026, 19s. 13/4d., or an +average sum per man of £7, 13s. 33/4d. at the settlement of 1870; +and 614 were indebted in a total amount of £4,437, 1s. 21/2d., or an +average sum per man of £7, 4s. 61/4d. at the settlement of 1871. +The total amount due to their fishermen by these fifteen curers was +£20,759, 17s, 33/4d., and the total amount which the men got from +them was £20,579, 14s. 13/4d. The debt was reduced by £589, 18s. +111/4d. The goods supplied in account were £8,927, 2s. 10d., +£2,574, 12s. 51/2d. being for fishing expenses. Thus, in this +prosperous year, considerably less than a half of the whole +earnings of the fishermen were received in goods. In 1867 about +three fourths, in 1871 about a half, of the cash paid was paid +before settlement. + +Table III., for the Faroe fishing of 1867, applies to 509 men out of +699 who were engaged in that fishery in smacks belonging to +Shetland curers. The average debt of 219 debtors in 1866 was £4, +13s. 2d., and of 125 debtors in 1867, £4, 11s. 31/2d. The total +amount credited to the men was £6,764, 16s. 6d., and £6,723, 18s. +31/2d. was paid to them, of which £3,120, 14s. 9d., or less than half, +was paid in goods. + +In 1871 (Table IV.) the returns apply to 605 men out of 816 +engaged in Shetland smacks in that year. Of these, 53 debtors in +1870 owed on the average £3, 8s. 93/4d each, and in 1871, 240 +debtors owed £4, 6s. 91/4d. each. They had got altogether £8,177, +2s. 1d., or about £770 more than was due to them; and of that sum, +£4, 146, 16s. 2d., or one half, was paid in truck. + +Tables V. and VI. are Tables I. and II. in a different form, showing +more clearly the total debits and credits of the men. They also +show how accurately, upon the whole, the returns have been made +up. Certain discrepancies are shown by the figures in the column +entitled 'Amount indebted in excess of statement.' These may be +accounted for in various ways;-where the discrepancy is small, +by trivial errors in making the returns; where it is greater, by the +omission from the returns of transactions of a less usual character, +<e.g.> sales of cloth, which were not supposed to be within the +questions asked; and in the two cases where the difference is +largest, it may be conjectured that the large amount of debt may +have been reduced by drafts upon secret bank accounts or hoards, +on sons at sea, or on the earnings of the female members of the +debtors' families. + +These Tables show that from one third to one half of the +fishermen are in debt to the curers each year at the time of +settlement, after their fishing has been credited to them. It is not +less true, as shown by the evidence, that during the rest of the year +nearly the whole of them are in debt to the curers, because the +goods and advances are debited to them as they get them, while +the credit for fish only comes at the end of the year. + +TABLE I.--HOME FISHING--SEASON 1867. [Page 25] + +1. No. of Fishermen employed + +2. Amount of Goods debited to Fishermen + +3. Cash advanced before Settlement + +5. Gross Sum credited to Men for Fish + +6. Gross Sum credited to them for Stock, etc. + +7. Cash due to Fishermen at Settlement + +8. Cash paid to them at Settlement. + +9.1. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1866 + +9.2. Total Debts. + +10.1 No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1866 + +10.2. Total Debts. + + + 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 +A 191 £1114 17 11 £625 1 0 +*B 79 576 18 9 79 19 11 +C 48 349 18 81/4 118 12 31/2 +D 46 164 8 2 54 10 7 +*E 244 765 10 1 280 13 6 +*F, 180 1006 5 1 537 6 5 +G, 23 95 0 0 35 18 0 +*H, 95 248 2 1 153 11 8 +J, 52 428 14 111/2 120 0 91/2 +K, 28 124 15 10 15 0 0 +*L, 30 76 16 51/4 0 0 0 +*M, 122 881 0 31/2 190 5 6 +*N 189 480 7 11 617 1 5 +O, 58 288 12 9 172 3 4 +*P, 209 788 16 21/2 946 9 1‡ +†Q, 31 149 5 91/2 79 15 6 +R, 70 354 5 1 128 18 9 +†S, 122 160 0 8 221 2 5 +†T, 96 563 8 7 153 6 7 + 1913 £8617 5 31/2 £4529 16 9 + + + 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 +A £367 1 5 £2594 2 81/2 £738 6 101/2 +*B 88 10 9 769 18 01/2 31 0 93/4 +C 51 15 0 338 14 1/4 92 4 9 +D 69 16 9 292 8 1 43 4 4 +*e 465 10 0 2233 10 10 0 0 0 +*F, 126 0 0 863 10 10 213 13 0 +G, 0 0 0§ 208 10 2 0 0 0 +*H, 39 8 10 866 0 2 304 14 0 +J, 162 13 3 415 8 101/2 114 12 81/2 +K, 19 0 0 286 6 0 0 0 0 +*L, 45 0 0 164 1 8 0 0 0 +*M, 292 3 6 878 17 1 366 11 61/2 +*N 331 1 4 1763 12 61/2 100 13 10 +O, 0 0 0 650 4 1 0 0 0 +*P, 0 0 0§ 2063 18 01/2 284 0 01/2 +†Q, 12 9 7 174 5 11 50 4 91/2 +R, 55 14 6 520 7 0 32 7 10 +†S, 56 13 5 1054 6 111/2 0 0 0 +†T, 59 17 9 861 11 8 91 8 0 + £2242 16 1 £16,999 14 81/4 £2463 2 61/4 + + + 7 7 7 8 8 8 9.1 +A £1077 1 11 £1444 7 1 114 +*B 163 5 03/4 248 7 31/4 31 +C 32 4 21/2 30 10 21/2 17 +D 85 3 31/2 85 3 31/2 11 +*e 834 6 3 834 6 3 25 +*F, 0 0 0 0 0 0±¶ 118 +G, 106 17 0 106 17 0 6 +*H, 342 7 1 342 7 1 27 +J, 34 11 41/2 28 10 0 29 +K, 133 9 91/2 159 17 10 6 +*L, 87 5 23/4 87 5 23/4 6 +*M, 265 18 01/2 294 17 11/2 67 +*N 484 4 11/2 479 8 1 22 +O, 216 14 81/2 216 14 81/2 22 +*P, 693 0 5 693 0 5 15 +†Q, 21 17 9 21 17 9 6 +R, 125 3 8 125 3 8 32 +†S, 616 5 61/2 616 5 61/2 7 +†T, 256 9 2 251 9 2 35 + £5576 4 71/2 £6066 7 81/2 596 + + + 9.2 9.2 9.2 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2 +A £1160 8 8 143 £1379 5 7 +*B 101 9 1/4 50 294 8 93/4 +C 27 17 41/2 35 150 17 101/2 +D 29 1 0 18 67 7 41/2 +*e 59 11 9 72 172 1 9 +*F, 783 0 0 141 948 18 3 +G, 45 19 4 9 87 19 7 +*H, 159 2 2 21 137 11 11 +J, 220 11 7 38 401 12 31/2 +K, 13 0 41/2 8 26 8 01/2 +*L, 25 7 51/4 7 26 14 63/4 +*M, 538 3 31/2 76 737 0 7 +*N 74 18 0 27 122 15 81/2 +O, 195 11 11 19 197 16 7 +*P, 70 7 8 41 150 16 31/2 +†Q, 9 16 4 16 48 14 31/2 +R, 101 17 5 50 213 4 7 +†S, 20 16 5 9 24 10 2 +†T, 292 2 7 52 372 7 9 + £3929 2 4 832 £5560 12 0 + + +*See Note (*) on table II., Home Fishing, 1871. +† This includes the Herring fishing. +‡ Includes $540, 9s. of Rents paid. +§ Included in No. 2. +± Although a few would have cash to get, yet the supplies to the +whole exceeded their earnings by about £536, 7s. 8d. + + +TABLE II.--HOME FISHING--SEASON 1871. [Page 26] + + +1. No. of Fishermen employed + +2. Amount of Goods debited to Fishermen. + +3. Cash advanced before Settlement. + +4. Fishing Expenses charged to the Men. + +5. Gross Sum credited to them for Fish. + +6. Gross Sum credited to them for Stock, etc. + +7. Cash due to them at Settlement. + +8. Cash paid to them at Settlement + +9.1 No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1870 + +9.2 Total Debts + +10.1. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1871 + +10.2. Total Debts + + 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 +A 182 £911 19 5 £809 16 8 +*B 79 406 8 1/4 137 15 41/2 +*C 46 308 16 1 103 19 61/2 +D 100 411 15 8 249 18 0 +*E 260 634 0 6 251 0 4 +*F, 144 735 2 2 640 3 1 +G, 23 60 0 0 40 17 0 +*H, 103 260 12 4 182 16 1 +J, 60 279 11 61/2 110 17 101/2 +K, 12 65 11 111/2 23 0 0 +Q 142 479 17 4 371 11 5 +*M, 147 1136 17 61/2 276 8 0 +O, 36 108 6 5 55 0 6 +*N 185 345 6 91/2 560 11 01/2 +S 66 107 14 8 110 14 11/2 +*L 30 100 9 11 + 1615 £6352 10 41/4 £3924 9 01/2 + +*†U, 150 1125 3 1 £658 5 21/2 +*†T, 126 1042 10 11 356 2 6 +*†P, 281 788 1 21/2 1048 19 111/2 + 2202 £9308 5 63/4 £5987 16 81/2 + + + 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 +A £274 10 1 £3101 14 3 £859 6 2 +*B 73 18 0 1090 6 1 14 10 91/2 +*C 49 10 6 578 0 21/2 115 2 83/4 +D 178 9 21/2 999 3 9 33 3 61/2 +*E 540 10 11 3436 16 7 +*F, 99 0 0 1330 1 7 335 12 0 +G, ‡ 310 4 0 +*H, 163 18 9 1151 11 4 197 3 11 +J, 161 14 111/2 623 4 8 60 8 6 +K, 6 0 0 102 19 6 +Q 123 8 5 1124 10 5 35 11 6 +*M, 459 12 31/2 1800 7 21/2 385 19 11/2 +O, 337 15 3 +*N 324 17 41/2 1780 3 4 79 9 11 +S 73 1 111/2 625 6 3 +*L 46 0 0 251 4 81/2 + £2574 12 51/2 £18,643 9 11/2 £2116 8 21/4 + +*†U, £50 4 8 £1651 11 11/2 £417 16 6 +*†T, 67 4 0 1880 10 11 183 6 5 +*†P, 2729 8 71/2 412 1 21/2 + £2692 1 11/2 £24,904 19 91/2 £3129 12 33/4 + + + 7 7 7 8 8 8 9.1 +A £1555 13 6 £1842 8 4 105 +*B 463 1 11/2 519 16 61/2 27 +*C 160 9 31/2 176 0 8 30 +D 252 16 6 252 16 6 34 +*E 1983 8 2 1983 8 2 17 +*F, 235 8 4 235 8 4 136 +G, 174 8 8 174 8 8 10 +*H, 376 14 8 376 14 8 25 +J, 90 5 6 74 5 21/2 44 +K, 15 16 11/2 5 +Q 299 9 10 299 9 10 46 +*M, 890 7 51/2 501 16 41/2 82 +O, 219 13 7 219 13 7 13 +*N 586 13 111/2 571 9 111/2 31 +S 333 15 41/2 333 15 41/2 32 +*L 150 14 91/4 150 14 91/4 7 + £7773 0 83/4 £7728 3 11/4 644 + +*†U, £276 6 4 £245 6 4 +*†T, 710 16 8 874 16 6 82 +*†P, 1305 10 71/2 1305 10 71/2 48 + £10,065 14 41/4 £10,153 16 63/4 774 + + + + 9.2 9.2 9.2 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2 +A £961 16 2 133 £839 10 0 +*B 120 1 23/4 35 164 15 9 +*C 141 19 01/4 22 94 16 93/4 +D 92 12 101/2 48 153 4 111/2 +*E 36 17 2 9 9 0 6 +*F, 1433 12 11 99 1215 4 4 +G, 56 13 0 5 23 10 0 +*H, 244 0 1 25 232 18 8 +J, 524 3 101/2 37 452 9 11 +K, 18 1 7 6 19 10 2 +Q 146 4 11 68 260 10 0 +*M, 858 7 51/2 65 657 17 21/2 +O, 163 15 10 11 140 6 0 +*N 125 9 3 23 88 3 2 +S 52 11 101/2 21 48 6 11/2 +*L 50 11 103/4 7 36 17 71/4 + £5026 19 13/4 614 £4437 1 21/2 + +*†U, £561 16 4 606 18 11/2 +*†T, 433 18 9 68 710 5 10 +*†P, 274 0 10 44 275 2 91/2 + £6296 15 03/4 726 £6037 7 111/2 + + + +*In the Returns made by those marked (*), rents payable by men to +them are included in the cash payments, except those of H. +† The Returns by U, T., and P are for the year 1870. +‡ This in included in No. 2. + +NOTES BY P. TO HIS ANSWERS 1870. + +<Question No. 1.>--281. This includes 84 men engaged by me +for the herring fishing, which on only begins on the 12th August. +These men fish to other curers at the ling-fishing during the summer, +and only] come to me for the herring fishing. They get no goods +from me, nor cash advances, but receive the gross value of their fish +in one payment when the fishing is over. +<Question No. 2>.--£788, 1s. 21/2d. This represents the gross amount +of the store accounts charged, and includes (the answer to question No. +4) all fishing expenses, and in some cases may included small advances +in cash. +<Question No. 3>.--£1048, 19s. 111/2d. This answer includes rent paid +for the men, and should be-- +Cash advanced ....... £481 11 7 +Rents paid, ............. 567 8 41/2 + £1048 19 111/2 +<Question No. 5.>--£2729, 8s. 71/2d. This sum includes £432 due for +herrings to the 84 men mentioned in note on answer No. 1. +<Question No. 6.>--£412, 1s. 21/2d. This includes the sum of £21, 5s. +61/2d. received from fishermen at settlement. +<Question No. 7.>--All sums <due> to the fishermen were <paid> at +settlement. +<Question No. 8>.--This includes £432 paid to the 84 men mentioned +in note on answer No. 1 for herrings. + + + +TABLE III.--FAROE FISHING--SEASON 1867. [Page 27] + +1. No. of Fishermen employed + +2. Amount of Goods debited to Fishermen. + +3. Cash advanced before Settlement. + +4. Fishing Expenses charged to the Men. + +5. Gross Sum credited to Men for Fish. + +6. Gross Sum credited to them for Stock, etc. + +7. Cash due to Fishermen at Settlement. + +8. Cash paid to them at Settlement. + +9.1. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1866. + +9.2. Total Debts + +10.1. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1867. + +10.2. Total Debts + 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 +A, 47 £234 15 5.5 £141 6 0 +B, 71 323 3 6.5 221 9 61/2 +C, 41 221 11 0 196 18 11 +D, 91 839 15 9.5 451 13 9 +E, 11 20 10 9.5 13 15 0 +F, 148 481 18 1.5 432 6 12 +G, 31 122 0 3 80 8 2 +H, 69 362 3 4 229 19 2 + 509 £2605 18 31/2 £1767 17 6 +†J 28 163 10 11 51 7 2 + + + 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 +A, £46 17 9 £656 5 9 £0 0 0 +B, 32 16 6.5 901 14 91/2 0 0 0 +C, 42 5 7 457 16 0 98 11 8 +D, 0 0 0* 1696 1 1 0 0 0 +E, 16 12 7 98 5 91/2 2 18 9 +F, 331 14 6 1667 8 4 44 12 7 +G, 14 13 6 312 5 11 0 0 0 +H, 29 16 0 828 15 10 0 0 0 + £514 16 51/2 £6618 13 6 £146 3 0 +†J £14 14 11 171 0 0 42 6 9 + + + + 7 7 7 8 8 8 9.1 +A, £183 15 01/2 £183 15 01/2 20 +B, 294 11 11/2 294 11 11/2 31 +C, 88 7 6 89 7 6 17 +D, 478 4 11 478 4 11 55 +E, 50 19 21/2 50 19 21/2 1 +F, 443 11 9 373 9 01/2 34 +G, 99 8 31/2 99 8 31/2 3 +H, 265 10 11 265 10 11 58 + £1904 8 9 £1835 6 01/2 219 +†J 0 19 1 0 19 1 25 + + + 9.2 9.2 9.2 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2 +A, £81 5 81/2 8 £31 14 2 +B, 164 1 101/2 23 134 7 10 +C, 60 12 11 15 54 8 3 +D, 307 0 4 22 141 16 01/2 +E, 0 16 2 1 1 9 6 +F, 164 0 2 26 133 13 91/2 +G, 10 7 7 9 14 6 10 +H, 232 1 4 21 58 13 7 + £1020 6 1 125 £570 10 0 +†J 86 5 5 28 137 7 41/2 + + +*Under this head no fishing expenses were charged against the +men's accounts. The only fishing expenses were bait, and curing +of fish, which were deducted from the gross amount before division, +as agreed upon. +† This Return in for 1866. In 1866 there was a remarkably 'lean' +Fishing. + +TABLE IV.--FAROE FISHING--SEASON 1871. [Page 28] + +1. No. of Fishermen employed +2. Amount of Goods debited to Fishermen. +3. Cash advanced before Settlement. +4. Fishing Expenses charged to the Men. +5. Gross Sum credited to Men for Fish. +6. Gross Sum credited to them for Stock, etc. +7. Cash paid to them at Settlement. +8. Cash paid to them at Settlement. +9.1. Total Debts +9.2. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1870. +10.1. Total Debts +10.2. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1871. + + 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 +F, 139 £563 5 6 £618 6 11 +A, 51 205 0 81/2 123 12 6 +C, 57 358 2 2 284 11 2 +D, 85 774 13 2 467 1 9 +H, 125 775 14 11 216 5 1 +J, 13 85 10 3 24 19 6 +E, 23 104 18 91/2 94 14 10 +G, 47 266 18 1 111 17 10 +†B, 65 249 19 3 203 18 21/2 + 605 £3384 2 10 £2145 7 91/2 + + 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 +F, £556 0 4 £2093 2 9 £32 6 0 +A, 26 4 31/2 331 5 1 0 0 0 +C, 51 3 6 150 4 6 647 0 2 +D, 0 0 0 1810 12 7 0 0 0 +H, 45 19 1 942 0 0 0 0 0 +J, 9 12 0 39 17 1 4 9 71/2 +E, 14 2 1 204 6 31/4 33 0 3 +G, 28 18 10 545 10 3 0 0 0 +†B, 30 13 21/2 572 6 4 ... ... ... + £762 13 4 £6689 4 101/4 £716 16 1/2 + + 7 7 7 8 8 8 9.1 +F, £473 16 2 £375 12 3 21 +A, 69 19 6 69 19 6 2 +C, 168 14 21/2 172 10 61/2 13 +D, 589 9 10 589 9 10 7 +H, 253 1 2 253 1 2 4 +J, 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 +E, 49 1 10 48 17 111/2 2 +G, 166 19 41/2 165 5 9 0 +†B, 210 1 11/2 210 1 11/2 1 + £1981 3 21/2 £1984 18 11/2 53 + + + 9.2 9.2 9.2 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2 +F, £83 1 11 31 £174 19 9* +A, 0 11 6 26 94 3 51/2 +C, 59 2 7 28 128 5 3 +D, 19 2 91/2 19 35 0 10 +H, 10 4 0 65 349 0 3 +J, 1 19 0 13 72 0 61/2 +E, 5 5 111/2 10 33 11 53/4 +G, 0 0 0 14 29 3 111/2 +†B, 2 18 6 34 125 3 111/2 + £182 6 3 240 £1041 9 53/4 + +* Of this sum, £174, 19s, 9d., there was due by 13 men, the crew +of one unsuccessful vessel, £105, 14s. 4d. The fishery of 1871 was +comparatively a failure, and left many of the men in debt; while the +previous year was very good, and the men were nearly all clear. +† Excluding the crew of one smack, the crew of which had not been +settled with. + + +TABLE V.--HOME FISHING--SEASON 1867. [Page 29] + +No. of Fishermen in Debt +at Settlement of 1866, and Amount of Debts. +1.1. No. +1.2. Amount. +2. Fishing Expenses Charged to the Men. +3. Goods charged to the Men. + +CASH. +4.1. Advanced to the Men before Settlement +4.2. Paid to them at Settlement. + +5. Total Debits to Fishermen. + +Gross Sums credited to the Men. +6.1. For Fish. +6.2. For Stock. + +7. Total Credits to Fishermen. + +No. of Fishermen in Debt at Settlement of 1867, and Amount Indebted. +8.1. No. +8.2. Amount. +8.3. Amount as per Statement. +8.4. Amount indebted in excess of Statement + +9. No. of men engaged during the Year. + + 1.1 1.2 1.2 1.2 2 2 2 +A, 114 £1160 8 8 £367 1 5 +B, 31 101 9 01/4 88 10 9 +C, 17 27 17 4.5 51 15 0 +D, 11 29 1 0 69 16 9 +E, 25 59 11 9 465 10 0 +F, 118 783 0 0 126 0 0 +G, 6 45 19 4 +H, 27 159 2 2 39 8 10 +I, 29 £220 11 7 162 13 3 +K, 6 £13 0 41/2 19 0 0 +L, 6 25 7 51/4 45 0 0 +M, 67 538 3 31/2 292 3 6 +N, 22 74 18 0 331 1 4 +O, 22 195 11 11 +P, 15 70 7 8 +Q, 6 9 16 4 12 9 7 +R, 32 101 17 5 55 14 6 +S, 7 20 16 5 56 13 5 +T, 35 292 2 7 59 17 9 + 596 £3939 2 4 £2242 16 1 + + 3 3 3 4.1 4.1 4.1 4.2 4.2 4.2 +A, £1114 17 11 625 1 0 1444 7 1 +B, 576 18 9 79 19 11 248 7 31/4 +C, 339 18 81/4 118 12 31/2 30 10 21/2 +D, 164 8 2 54 10 7 85 3 31/2 +E, 765 10 1 280 13 6 834 6 3 +F, 1006 5 1 537 6 5 +G, 95 0 0 35 18 8 106 17 0 +H, 248 2 1 153 11 8 342 7 1 +I, 428 14 111/2 120 0 91/2 28 10 0 +K, 124 15 10 15 0 0 159 17 10 +L, 76 16 51/4 87 5 23/4 +M, 881 0 31/2 190 5 6 294 17 11/2 +N, 480 7 11 617 1 5 479 8 1 +O, 288 12 9 172 3 4 216 14 81/2 +P, 788 16 21/2 946 9 1 693 0 5 +Q, 149 5 91/2 79 15 6 21 17 9 +R, 354 5 1 128 18 9 125 3 8 +S, 160 0 8 221 2 5 616 5 61/2 +T, 563 8 7 153 6 7 351 9 2 + £8617 5 31/2 £4529 16 9 £6066 7 81/2 + + 5 5 5 6.1 6.1 6.1 6.2 6.2 6.2 +A, £4711 16 1 £2594 2 81/2 £738 6 101/2 +B, 1095 5 81/2 769 18 01/2 31 0 93/4 +C, 578 13 63/4 338 14 01/4 92 4 9 +D, 402 19 91/2 292 8 1 43 4 4 +E, 2405 11 7 2233 10 10 +F, 2452 11 6 863 10 10 213 13 0 +G, 283 14 4 208 10 2 +H, 942 11 10 866 0 2 304 14 0 +I, 960 10 7 415 8 101/2 114 12 81/2 +K, 331 14 01/2 286 6 0 +L, 234 9 11/4 164 1 8 +M, 2196 9 81/2 878 17 1 366 11 61/2 +N, 1982 16 9 1763 12 61/2 100 13 10 +O, 873 2 81/2 650 4 1 +P, 2498 13 41/2 2063 18 01/2 284 0 01/2 +Q, 273 4 111/2 174 5 11 50 4 91/2 +R, 765 19 5 520 7 0 32 7 10 +S, 1074 18 51/2 1054 6 111/2 +T, 1320 4 8 861 11 8 91 8 0 + £25385 8 2 £16999 14 81/4 £2463 2 61/4 + + 7 7 7 8.1 8.2 8.2 8.2 +A, £3332 9 7 143 £1379 6 6 +B, 800 18 101/4 50 294 6 101/4 +C, 430 18 91/4 35 147 14 91/2 +D, 335 12 5 18 67 7 41/2 +E, 2233 10 10 72 172 0 0 +F, 1077 3 10 141 1375 7 8 +G, 208 10 2 9 75 4 2 +H, 1170 14 2 21 <228 2 4> +I, 530 1 7 38 430 9 0 +K, 286 6 0 8 45 8 01/2 +L, 164 1 8 7 70 7 51/4 +M, 1245 8 71/2 76 951 1 1 +N, 1864 6 41/2 27 118 10 41/2 +O, 650 4 1 19 222 18 71/2 +P, 2347 18 1 41 150 15 31/2 +Q, 224 10 81/2 16 48 14 3 +R, 552 14 10 50 213 4 7 +S, 1054 6 111/2 9 20 11 6 +T, 952 19 8 52 367 5 0 + £19462 18 21/2 832 £5922 10 111/2 + + + 8.3 8.3 8.3 8.4 8.4 8.4 9 +A, £1379 5 7 £0 0 11 191 +B, 294 8 93/4 <0 1 111/2> 79 +C, 150 17 101/2 <3 3 1> 48 +D, 67 7 41/2 46 +E, 172 1 9 <0 1 0> 244 +F, 948 18 3 426 9 5 180 +G, 87 19 7 <12 15 5> 23 +H, 137 11 11 <365 14 3> 95 +I, 401 12 31/2 28 16 81/2 52 +K, 26 8 01/2 19 0 0 28 +L, 26 14 63/4 43 12 101/2 30 +M, 737 0 7 214 0 6 122 +N, 122 15 81/2 <4 5 4> 189 +O, 197 16 7 25 2 01/2 58 +P, 150 16 31/2 <0 1 0> 209 +Q, 48 14 31/2 <0 0 01/2> 31 +R, 213 4 7 70 +S, 24 10 2 <3 18 8> 122 +T, 372 7 9 <5 2 9> 96 + £5560 12 0 361 18 111/2 1913 + +*Where the amount is less than the Statement, the figures are noted +in italics, and effect is given to these sums in the addition. + +TABLE VI.--HOME FISHING--SEASON 1871. [Page 30] + +No. of Fishermen in Debt at Settlement of 1870, and Amount of +Debts. +1.1. No. +1.2. Amount. + + +2. Fishing Expenses Charged to the Men. + +3. Goods charged to the Men. + +CASH. +4.1. Advanced to the Men before Settlement. +4.2. Paid to them at Settlement. + +5. Total Debits to Fishermen. + +Gross Sums credited to the Men. +6.1. For Fish. +6.2. For Stock. + +7. Total Credits to Fishermen. + +No. of Fishermen in Debt at Settlement of 1871, and Amount +Indebted. +8.1. No. +8.2. Amount to Balance. +8.3. Amount as per Statement. +8.4. Amount indebted in excess of Statement + +9. No. of men engaged during the Year. + + 1.1 1.2 1.2 1.2 2 2 2 +A, 105 £961 16 2 £274 10 1 +B, 27 120 1 23/4 73 18 0 +C, 30 141 19 01/4 49 10 6 +D, 34 92 12 101/2 178 9 21/2 +E, 17 36 17 2 540 10 11 +F, 136 1433 12 11 99 0 0 +G, 10 56 13 0 +H, 25 244 0 1 163 18 9 +I, 44 524 3 101/2 161 14 12 +K, 5 18 1 7 6 0 0 +R, 46 146 4 11 123 8 5 +M, 82 858 7 51/2 459 12 31/2 +O, 13 163 15 10 +N, 31 125 9 3 324 17 41/2 +S, 32 52 11 101/2 73 1 12 +L, 7 50 11 103/4 46 0 0 + 644 £5026 19 13/4 £2574 12 51/2 + +U, £561 16 4 £50 4 8 +T, 82 433 18 9 67 4 0 +P, 48 274 0 10 + 774 £6296 15 03/4 £2692 1 11/2 + + 3 3 3 4.1 4.1 4.1 4.2 4.2 4.2 +A, £911 19 5 £809 16 8 £1842 8 4 +B, 406 8 01/4 137 15 41/2 519 16 61/2 +C, 308 16 1 103 19 61/2 176 0 8 +D, 411 15 8 249 18 0 252 16 6 +E, 634 0 6 251 0 4 1983 8 2 +F, 735 2 2 640 3 1 235 8 4 +G, 60 0 0 40 17 0 174 8 8 +H, 260 12 4 182 16 1 376 14 8 +I, 279 11 61/2 110 17 101/2 74 5 21/2 +K, 65 11 111/2 23 0 0 15 16 11/2 +R, 479 17 4 371 11 5 299 9 10 +M, 1136 17 61/2 276 8 0 501 16 41/2 +O, 108 6 5 55 0 6 219 13 7 +N, 345 6 91/2 560 11 01/2 571 9 111/2 +S, 107 14 8 110 14 11/2 333 15 41/2 +L, 100 9 11 150 14 91/4 + £6352 10 41/4 £3924 9 01/2 £7728 3 11/4 + +U, £1125 3 1 £658 5 21/2 £245 6 4 +T, 1042 10 11 356 2 6 874 16 6 +P, 788 1 21/2 1048 19 111/2 1305 10 71/2 + £9308 5 63/4 £5987 16 81/2 £10153 16 63/4 + + 5 5 5 6.1 6.1 6.1 6.2 6.2 6.2 +A, £4800 10 8 £3101 14 3 £859 6 2 +B, 1257 19 2 £1090 6 1 14 10 91/2 +C, £780 5 93/4 578 0 21/2 115 2 83/4 +D, 1185 12 3 999 3 9 33 3 61/2 +E, 3445 17 1 3436 16 7 +F, 3143 6 6 1330 1 7 335 12 0 +G, 331 18 8 310 4 0 +H, 1228 1 11 1151 11 4 197 3 11 +I, 1150 13 51/2 623 4 8 60 8 6 +K, 128 9 8 102 19 6 +R, 1420 11 11 1124 10 5 35 11 6 +M, 3233 1 8 1800 7 21/2 385 19 11/2 +O, 546 16 4 337 15 3 +N, 1927 14 5 1780 3 4 79 9 11 +S, 677 18 0 625 6 3 +L, 347 16 7 251 4 81/2 + £25606 14 13/4 £18643 9 11/2 £2116 8 21/4 + +U, £2640 15 71/2 £1651 11 11/2 £417 16 6 +T, 2774 12 8 1880 10 11 183 6 5 +P, 3416 12 71/2 2729 8 71/2 412 1 21/2 + £34438 15 01/4 £24904 19 91/2 £3129 12 33/4 + + 7 7 7 8.1 8.2 8.2 8.2 +A, £3961 0 5 133 £839 10 3 +B, 1104 16 101/2 £35 153 2 £4 +C, 693 2 111/4 22 87 2 101/2 +D, 1032 7 31/2 48 153 4 111/2 +E, 3436 16 7 9 9 0 6 +F, 1665 13 7 99 1477 12 11 +G, 310 4 0 5 21 14 8 +H, 1348 15 3 25 <120 13 4> +I, 683 13 2 37 467 0 31/2 +K, 102 19 6 6 25 10 2 +R, 1160 1 11 68 260 10 0 +M, 2186 6 4 65 1046 15 4 +O, 337 15 3 11 209 1 1 +N, 1859 13 3 23 68 1 2 +S, 625 6 3 21 52 11 9 +L, 251 4 81/2 17 96 11 101/2 + £20759 17 33/4 624 £4846 16 91/2 + +U, £2069 7 71/2 £571 8 0 +T, 2063 17 4 68 710 15 4 +P, 3141 9 10 44 275 2 91/2 + £28034 12 11/4 736 £6404 2 11 + + + 8.3 8.3 8.3 8.4 8.4 8.4 9 +A, £839 10 0 £0 0 3 217 +B, 164 15 £9 <11 13 51/2> 79 +C, 94 16 93/4 <7 13 111/4> 46 +D, 153 4 111/2 100 +E, 9 0 6 260 +F, 1215 4 4 262 8 7 144 +G, 23 10 0 <1 15 4> 23 +H, 232 18 8 <353 12 0> 103 +I, 452 9 11 14 10 41/2 60 +K, 19 10 2 6 0 0 12 +R, 260 10 0 142 +M, 657 17 21/2 388 18 11/2 147 +O, 140 6 0 68 15 1 36 +N, 88 3 2 <20 2 0> 185 +S, 48 6 11/2 4 5 71/2 66 +L, 36 17 71/4 59 14 31/4 30 + £4437 1 21/2 £409 15 £7 1650 + +U, £606 18 11/2 <35 10 11/2> 150 +T, 710 5 10 0 9 6 126 +P, 275 2 91/2 281 + £6029 7 111/2 £374 14 111/2 2207 + +*Where the amount is less than the Statement, the figures are noted +in italics, and effect is given to these sums in the addition. +_______________________________ + +[Page 31] PRICES AT THE SHOPS OF FISH-CURERS. + +Of an inquiry regarding the existence and effects of Truck, the +quality and prices of the goods furnished by the employer in lieu of +money forms a necessary part. In Lerwick, as might be expected, +competition, and the greater facility of communication with other +places, have kept the prices of the necessaries of life at a moderate +figure. + +No complaints were made as to prices there, and it was thought +unnecessary to make a minute investigation. Evidence was taken, +however, for the purpose of comparing the prices of meal and +flour as sold in Lerwick with those charged at the fish-curers' +shops in the country districts. It is a fact of some significance, that +few persons above the condition of peasants purchase supplies for +family use from the shops in Shetland. Provisions and groceries, +as well as clothing are to a large extent imported by private +individuals from Aberdeen, Leith, and Edinburgh. The Rev. Mr. +Sutherland says that he gets his goods twice a year from the south, +and does not deal with any local shop, unless he happens to be out +of a particular article; and that, so far as he knows, it is common +for clergymen and others in the same position to get their supplies +from the south: + +'7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; +they are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for +them.' + '7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of +your fellow clergymen?-I don't know; but they have often +spoken about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might +be expected, inferior in quality to the goods I would like. I don't +blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality, +because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying +them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here, in +consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge +upon their goods.' + +[C. Robertson, 15,017; J. Robertson, sen., 14,072.] + +Statements to the same effect are made by the Rev. D. Miller, +United Presbyterian minister at Mossbank, and the Rev. W. Smith, +minister of Unst. [6001; 10,714.] + +Many witnesses complained that prices are higher at the 'shops' +than at Lerwick. Thus the leading witness from Dunrossness said +that oatmeal at Mr. Bruce's shop at Grutness was 4s. a boll (140 +lbs.), or 8s. per sack or quarter, above its price in Lerwick. +[L. Mail, 568.] + +GRUTNESS + +The prices charged here are much too high; and this arises not +merely from the want of the check of competition, as regards the +men thirled to the shop by want of money to deal elsewhere, but +also from the very peculiar way in which the prices are fixed. This +may possibly be explained by the fact that neither Mr. Bruce nor +his shopkeeper have been properly trained to the business of the +shop, which has been taken up as an appendage of the fish trade. +Gilbert Irvine, the shopkeeper, was unable to give any very clear +explanation of the way in which the price of meal at Grutness is +fixed, and why the men never knew the price of it until the +settlement. [G. Irvine, 13,173.] But Mr. Bruce says: + +'13,306. In what way do you fix the average price of meal for the +year?--We take what other people are charging in Lerwick and +elsewhere; and after considering the quality of the meal, and our +extra expense upon it, we charge what we think it can reasonably +bring, without any regard to the cost price of it.' +'13,307. Do you not take the cost price into consideration at all?- +Of course it is an element, but not the principal element, in fixing +the price.' + +This loose method of proceeding may account for the complaints +of the price made by all the men, who were quite satisfied with the +quality. No man deals at the store at Grutness who can possibly +get money to buy his goods elsewhere, and Mr. Bruce himself +speaks of the shop as a necessity for the fishing, and not a source +of profit in itself. The price of meal was ascertained by William +Goudie to be at least 3s. per boll above, the price elsewhere. +There is also at Grutness an ambiguity about weight -pecks being +sold by 'lispund weight,' <i.e.> 4 to 32 lbs., instead of boll weight, +<i.e.> 4 to 35 lbs. = quarter boll. The price of oatmeal for the +whole of 1870 was 22s. at Grutness, which was the highest price it +attained in Lerwick for a very short time after the breaking out of +the French war. During by far the greater part of the year, it varied +at Lerwick from 17s. 3d. to 19s. It is instructive to compare the price +at Grutness with a note of the prices charged by Mr. Gavin +Henderson at Scousbrough, three miles distant, where no +fishermen are bound to the shopkeeper or engaged by him. This +note (p. 319 of Evidence) brings out an average of 18s. 3d. per boll +on all Mr. Henderson's sales for that year. Comparison of Mr. +Henderson's note of prices for that year with Mr. Charles +Robertson's (p. 378), shows that a merchant carrying on business +twenty miles from Lerwick can sell his meal as cheaply as +merchants there are in the practice of doing. Mr. Bruce's own +invoices show that his meal for the season 1870 was purchased at +an average price of 16s. 8d. per boll, and that out of the whole +supply of 171 bolls, all but 25 bolls was bought at 16s. 3d. and +under. The freight from Aberdeen to Grutness he states to be 1s. +5d. per boll. Thus 16s. 8d. +1s. 5d. = 18s. 1d., leaving 3s. 11d. for +profit and risk, or about 22 per cent. But Mr. Bruce explains that, +as his shop is not conducted on purely commercial principles, but +as an auxiliary to the fishing, this is all required to cover expenses +of management. It is nevertheless very expensive for the retail +purchasers. 2 lb. lines at Grutness are sold for 2s. 2d.; at Mr. +Henderson's, for 2s. Tea, of which Shetlanders consume a large +quantity, and of which they are said to be good judges, is said +by one witness to be from 4d. to 8d. dearer per lb. at Boddam, +where there is a shop of Mr. Bruce's, than at Lerwick or Gavin +Henderson's, a shop in the neighbourhood; cotton to be 2d. a yard +dearer, and tobacco 1d. or 2d. a quarter lb. The evidence of Mr. +Charles Fleming shows that some cotton stuffs, pieces of which +were obtained at the shop at Grutness, and which were said by Mr. +Irvine to be sold at 41/2d., 8d., and 1s. a yard respectively, were +worth in retail very much less than these prices. + +[J. Bruce, jun., H. Mailand, 4858; W. Goudie, 4317; G. Irvine, 13, +259; J. Brown, 5300; H. Gilbertson, 4551; C. Robertson, 15,040; J. +Robertson, sen., 14,587; T. Aitken, 4833; G. Irvine, 13,224; J. +Bruce, jun., 13, 319; G. Irvine, 13,291; R. Henderson, 12,877; R. +Halcrow, 4663; C. Fleming, 17,042; G. Irvine, 13,200.] + +QUENDALE + +The general import of the evidence as to Mr. Grierson's shop +at Quendale is that the prices are not so high as at Grutness, but +higher (2s. or 3s per boll for meal than those at Gavin Henderson's +at Scousborough and even than those at Messrs. Hay & Co.'s at +Dunrossness. Here the prices of fishing lines are-2 lb., 2s. 3d.; +21/2 lb., 2s. 6d; 13/4 lb., 2s.; 11/2 lb., 1s. 9d. At Gavin Henderson's, 2 +lb., 2s.; 21/4lb., 2s. 3d. + +[J. Flawes, 4978; C. Eunson, 5067; G. Goudie, 13,392; R. +Henderson, 12,877.] + +MOSSBANK + +The difference between prices at Mossbank and Lerwick has been +not less than 4s. or 4s. 6d. per boll, although Mr. Pole (5962) +says that in general the difference is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per boll. +The difference between Mossbank prices for meal and the shop of +Magnus Johnston at Tofts, a mile distant, is said by Johnston to be +a penny a peck, or 1s. 5d. per boll. At the shop of the same firm at +Greenbank, in North Yell, the price of meal was 5s. 8d. per +lispund (32 lbs.) in the summer of 1871-<i.e.> about 24s. 6d. per +boll, while in Lerwick it ranged at 21s. 6d. Similar differences +exist there as regards other articles, such as tea and sugar. + +[J. Henderson, 5514; J. Nicholson, 8738; M. Johnston, 7897; J.L. +Pole, 9396, J. Nicholson, 8736.] + +HAY & CO.'S SHOPS + +From Burra, Whalsay, and the other establishments of Messrs. Hay +& Co., no complaints as to prices were made. Some of their +stations are so near Lerwick that they must sell as low as possible, +in order to secure the custom of the men. It is said that at Fetlar, +one of their most remote stations, the goods are as cheap and good +as at Lerwick. The books kept at Fetlar show sales of meal in July +last at 23s., in August at 22s. 8d., and in September at 21s.; while +in these months the prices in Lerwick were-July, 21s. 6d.; +August, 21s.; September, 21s. In Fetlar, Messrs. Hay & Co. have +the only large shop. At North Roe (Hay & Co.), the most remote +shop on the mainland, the price of meal per boll, at the beginning +of the fishing season of 1871, was only 6d. or 1s. higher than at +Lerwick at the same date, according as the purchase spoken to by +a witness was made in April or May. It seems to be a fair +conclusion from the evidence that this firm does not, as a rule, +charge high prices. No complaint has been made with respect to +quality. + +[W. Irvine, 3715; Catherine Petrie, 1458; G. Gaunson, 8887; J. +Garriock, 8766; A. Ratter, 7400; C. Robertson, 15,040; T. Aitken, +4836.] + +VOE + +The establishment of Mr. Adie at Voe (Olnafirth) is one of the +largest in Shetland. No specimens were obtained from it for +examination; but the oral evidence as to the provisions sold there +may be briefly referred to. Mr. Adie himself admits that the cost +of carriage necessarily enhances prices at Voe, and that meal is +therefore generally 2s. per boll dearer than at Lerwick. A witness +who lately went to live there, however, paid 1s. 5d. per peck for +meal which he would have got in Lerwick for 1s. 2d., or five +months ago for 1s. 3d. This is a difference not of 2s., but of 4s. +per boll; and although the witness Gilbert Scollay impressed me +unfavourably by the manner of his evidence, there is much to +corroborate his statement with regard to his dealings with the shop +at Voe. He says that - + +'Ultimately I wrote to the meal dealers in the south, and I found +that there was a difference of 10s. on the sack of meal; that, upon +12 sacks, would have been a saving of £6 alone.' + +[T.M. Adie, 5699; R. Mouat, 4240; C. Robertson, 15,040.] + +Of course 2s. 6d., or in winter, according to Mr. Adie, 5s. per sack, +must be deducted from this difference for freight. Again, on April +21, 1868, meal being 26s. 6d. per boll see or 1s. 7d. per peck, was +sold at Voe at 1s. 9d. per peck. + +[See G. Scollay, 14,975; C. Robertson, 15,040.] + +R. MOUAT'S SHOP + +The worst accounts are given of the meal kept at the shop of +Robert Mouat, Sandwick, formerly referred to. Henry Sinclair +says that 'the greater part of it was fit for nothing but the pigs.' +What he called his second flour, says another witness, 'was of such +a quality that it could not be eaten by human beings;' but,' he +adds, 'it had to be eaten for the support of life while it existed.' + + +[5330; M. Malcolmson, 3013, 3014; W. Manson, 3039; T. +Williamson, 9470; J. Robertson, jun., 15,186.] + + BURRAVOE + +Gilbert Robertson, a boatskipper and an elder of the kirk, gets his +supplies in Lerwick, because he found flour to be 2s. per sack, and +meal 3s. or 4s. a sack, cheaper than Burravoe, a place to which +there has for some years been steam communication from Lerwick +twice a week. + +[9320] + +UNST + +In Unst a witness got meal from Spence & Co., at the date of the +sitting there, at 1s. 5d. per peck, or as nearly as possible 24s. 11/2d. +per boll, allowing 1/2d. a peck for loss in weighing; the price in +Lerwick being 19s. 6d. per boll, or 131/2d. a peck. During almost +the whole of the previous year the same price was charged there, +though it was sometimes 1s. 4d.; and 1s. 4d. was the price of the +same meal at Isbister's adjacent shop. The books kept at Balta +Sound show that meal was being sold at 5s. 8d. and 5s, 9d. per +lispund, or above 24s. per boll, in October 1871, while the price +in Lerwick in that month was 19s. 6d. per boll. An opinion is +expressed by the registrar of the parish Unst, that the 2s. 6d. tea he +gets in Lerwick is 'much about the same as the 3s. tea which he +gets from Spence & Co. at Balta Sound. But a favourable report +upon Spence & Co.'s 3s. tea sold to me is afterwards referred to. + +[Janet Robertson, 9812; C, Robertson, 15,042; J. Laurenson, 9843, +9905; W. G. Mouat, 10,254; C. Robertson, 15,040; P. Johnson, +10,227.] +SKERRIES + +At Skerries, where Mr. Adie has the shop, and is tacksman of the +islands, meal is said to be charged 7s. a sack higher than it is in +Lerwick; and an instance is given in which 6s. a sack was paid for +it, while it could have been had from any merchant in Lerwick for +50s. or 51s. In January of the present year the price was 1s, 4d. per +peck, or 23s. per per boll, at Skerries, being 19s. 6d., or 1s. 11/2d. +per peck, at Lerwick. A similar difference existed in spring 1871. +All articles at Skerries are stated to be over-priced, such as soap, +soda, and sugar, which can be got much cheaper even at Whalsay, +where Hay & Co. have a shop. On soda the overcharge is said to +be 50 per cent. + +[T. Hutchison, 12,658; J. Robertson, sen., 14,569; P. Henderson, +12,756; D. Anderson, 12,795; A. Humphrey, 12,826; T. Hutchison, +12,685.] + +VIDLIN + +Although Mr. Robertson carries on an extensive trade in meal at +Lerwick, and there sells at town prices, his shopkeeper at Vidlin, +in Lunnasting, charges about the ordinary prices of the country +shops. A pass-book produced by a witness shows meal charged at +22s. 8d. and 22s. in September 1870, when the Lerwick price was +19s. The difference, however, does not appear to be so great here +as at some other places. Thus in February 1870 meal was 1s. 11/2 +d. per peck, being 1s. per peck at Lerwick. In June 1871 overhead +flour was sold at Voe at 1s. 3d. per peck; the price at Lerwick +being 16s. 6d. per boll, or 1s. per peck, or for the finer quality of +overhead flour, about 1s. 11/2 d. per peck. + +[L. Simpson, 13,884; G. Scollay, 15,013; C. Robertson, 15,032; G. +Scollay, 15,010; 15,012; C. Robertson, 15,037, 15,043.] + +YELL, OLLABERRY, ETC + +Prices charged by some other merchants may be mentioned at +random. Laurence Williamson, Mid Yell, sold meal in August +1871 at 3s. per 1/2 lispund, or about 25s. per boll, the Lerwick price +being then 21s. At Ollaberry shop (Anderson & Co.) 21/4 lines are +charged 2s. 3d. cash, and 2s. 6d. if marked down, while they are +got by a witness direct from Glasgow 'for 1s. 11d., including +freight and everything.' In 1871 men fishing for William Jack +Williamson at Ulsta, South Yell, paid 1s. 3d. for flour, while +there was as good at Messrs. Hay's at Feideland, a remote fishing +station, for 1s. 1d. Paraffin oil in Unst was retailed in January at +the rate of 2s. 6d. per gallon, being purchased at 1s. 5d. + +[L. Williamson, 9068; A. Johnson, 14,933, G. Gilbertson, 9583.] + +These are but a few instances of the statements of witnesses with +regard to the prices and qualities of goods. They appear to show +that the truck system of Shetland resembles the truck of the +English and Scotch mining and manufacturing districts in +enhancing the prices of goods to the purchasers. This is the +natural result of a system in which the purchaser has no option as +to the dealer to whom he goes for necessary supplies; but it must +also be remembered that in retail trade in rural districts custom has +a powerful effect in fixing prices, and that even if truck did not +exist, prices in so remote a region would be somewhat above the +level of Aberdeen or Wick. + +I conclude this part of the subject by referring to the evidence of +Mr. James Lewis, an extensive and experienced merchant in +Edinburgh, as to the price and quality of certain samples of goods +submitted to him. The goods were purchased at the shops of +Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., Mossbank, by a person employed +by me, and that of Mr. Morgan Laurenson, Lochend, Northmaven, +by Charlotte Johnson, for her own use; and at Messrs. Spence & +Co.'s shop at Uyea Sound, by myself. + +[A.T. Jamieson, 7945; C. Johnson, 15,811.] + +MOSSBANK + +The four articles first spoken to by Mr. Lewis were got at +Mossbank. The meal was of very inferior quality, not saleable in +the Canongate of Edinburgh; and though bought at 1s. 5d. a peck = +£1, 4s. 6d. per boll, is valued at 20s. This corresponds exactly with +the Shetland evidence as to value. Tea bought at 2s. 10d. is valued +at 2s. 4d. as the retail price in Edinburgh, which gives 211/2 per +cent. to cover carriage, risk, and <additional> profit. A tea bought +at Mossbank at 2s. 4d. is of the same value as the 2s. 10d. tea, +though somewhat different 'in style.' Sugar obtained at Mossbank +at 6d. per lb. is worth 41/2d. in retail in Canongate, so that the +merchant in Shetland takes 33 per cent. to cover carriage and <extra> profit. + +[J. Lewis, 16,816.] + + UYEASOUND. + +Tea bought at 2s. 8d. is valued at 2s. 6d. here; and Mr. Lewis +thinks 2s. 10d. would be a fair value for it in Shetland, being a +good tea, and carrying, according to the practice of the trade, a +larger profit. Sugar bought at 5d. is valued at 41/2d. + + LOCHEND. + +Tea, for which the witness paid 4s. 4d., is valued at 3s., and +though by far the best of the teas examined, was much over-priced. +Loaf-sugar at 10d. should have cost only 6d., and would be too +dear at 8d. even in Shetland. Flour bought at 2d. per lb. is not fit +for use, and is not flour at all in the opinion of the reporter. Rice +at 31/2d. per lb. is fairish; would sell at 21/2d. in Canongate, and +might fairly be sold at 3d. in Shetland. Soap bought at 6d. per lb. +was worth 4d., so far as Mr. Lewis could judge of it in a dry state. + +Tobacco sold at Grutness at 4d. per oz., and another sample sold at +Gavin Henderson's, Dunrossness, at 4d. per oz., are both valued at +4s. per lb., or 3d. per oz. + +Throughout the islands the prices charged to the men in account +are the same, with few exceptions, as those charged to the +purchaser for cash. Mr. Adie gives a discount where the amount +purchased is worth discounting, but he also usually gives a +discount of 5 per cent. upon his men's accounts. In Unst a lower +price seems to be charged where cash is paid. + +[W. Irvine, 3625; A. Tulloch, 5446; J.L. Pole, 9440, 9448; W. +Robertson, 11,111, 13,635; W.B.M. Harrison, 15,726; +L.F.U. Garriock, 12,295; T.M. Adie, 5636; J. Harper, 10,393; T. +Anderson, 10,507.] +__________________________________ + +SPLITTERS, BEACH-BOYS, AND WOMEN. + +WAGES SETTLED IN GOODS + +The fishermen hitherto spoken of are not strictly labourers +receiving wages, but may be regarded as vendors of wet fish to +the fish-merchant, or less properly as partners with him. But to +persons employed in curing fish, wages are paid, and are often +paid in goods to their full amount. In the payment of these +persons, especially the women and boys, undisguised truck exists +to an extent not exceeded in any of the trades in which the system +has been carried to the highest perfection; but the important +distinction is to be observed, that little or no compulsion or +influence is required to make the work-people take the goods. + +WEEKLY PAYMENTS, +CURING BY CONTRACT + +In some of the curing establishments at Lerwick the pays are +as frequent as it is reasonably possible to make them. The people +are paid every week; but in nine cases out of ten a large part of +their weekly wages is anticipated in supplies at the employer's +shop. This of course involves an amount of time and trouble, +and a risk of bad debts, which no merchant would incur, except +for a large profit, and which indeed led Messrs. Harrison & Sons +to refuse altogether to give 'out-takes' to work-people of this +class. The wages are, however, paid at Lerwick, and some of the +people spend their money at the shops of the firm, which adjoin +the pay-office. At Scalloway, where Messrs. Garriock & Co. have +no shop, they employ persons at daily wages, which are paid +weekly, or within the fortnight. But the habit of running accounts +is so inveterate in Shetlanders that 'often what they have to get on +the Saturday night is forestalled in the shops.' In contracts for +curing, which are sometimes made, Messrs. Garriock & Co. have +no dealings with the work-people employed by the contractors, but +make such advances as are necessary to them in money. It is not +always so where curing is ostensibly done by contract. Thus, in +Unst, many of the work-people employed by a contractor at +Westing have accounts in the shop-books of Spence & Co. at Uyea +Sound; settlements being effected, and sometimes advances made, +by the merchants themselves on the authority of lines given by the +contractor, stating the amount of the beach fee. The balance due is +ascertained in the merchant's books, after deducting the amount +due by the contractor for his own supplies at the shop. + +[W.B.M. Harrison, 15,772; J. Manson, 2941; L.F.U. Garriock, +12,445, 12,443; A. Sandison, 10,108; P. Smith, 10,344.] + +BEACH FEES + +These are the cases in which exceptional circumstances are found +in dealings between merchants and persons employed at the +beaches. Throughout Shetland the most common arrangement is +to pay splitters and beach-boys or women by a beach fee, which +varies from £8 or £10 for the season to an experienced head curer, +to 30s. to a beach-boy in his first year. Sometimes extra hands are +paid weekly wages as day-workers. But even in these cases +advances are generally made in goods; and sometimes, as at +Mossbank and Greenbank, the account runs 'three, four, five, or six +weeks or perhaps the whole season.' In a passage already quoted +from the evidence of an extensive employer, it is made very clear +that these people, in whatever way they are paid, are 'expected' to +come to the employer for supplies. + +[W. Pole, 5917; p. 14, see above.] + +The operation of truck in this department is shown in the +examination of Mr. Robertson, manager for Mr. Leask, who +employs 80 persons regularly, and others occasionally, in his +curing establishments near Lerwick. Mr. Robertson afterwards +produced a 'time-book' for the people employed at Sound Beach, +near Lerwick, + +13,607. ....'to show the proportion of money and of goods received +by each. [Produces book.]' +'13,608. That is a time-book for the work-people employed in 1871 +at Sound Beach, which is about a mile from Lerwick?-Yes. It +shows the amount of cash paid, the balance, of course, being the +amount of their accounts for the week.' +'13,609. The first name is M'Gowan Gray?-He is the +superintendent.' +'13,610. The entry in his case is, Cash 2s., time 6, wages 10s.: what +does that mean?-He has 10s. a week of wages, six days a week, +and 2s. is the cash he has to get.' +'13,611. The entry in the inner column is made at pay-day, +showing the amount of cash he has to get?-Yes.' +'13,612. How is the amount of cash ascertained?-We have a +ledger account with each individual, which is settled every week, +but perhaps it may not be balanced. We do not generally balance +until the end of the year, but we square accounts before.' +'13,613. Is the account squared to ascertain the amount of cash +payable?-Yes, the amount of cash due to the individual.' +'13,618. Are the balances entered here always paid in cash?- +Always.' +'13,619. Are they never allowed to lie?-Not with the +work-people.' +'13,620. Is the week ending 2d Sept. 1871, of which this- +[showing]-is the account, a fair average of week throughout the +season?-I think it will be about a fair average.' +'13,621. It shows £5, 17s. 5d. as the total amount of wages earned; +and of that, £3, 19s. 7d. was paid in cash at the end of the week, +the rest having been taken out in the course of the week in +goods?-Yes, principally in provisions.' +'13,622. I see that in one case it had been altogether taken out in +goods, and there was no cash due?-Yes; but in others you will +find that there has been nothing taken out, and that the whole was +paid in cash.' +'13,623. I see that in six cases cash has been paid in full out of +twenty-seven people employed?-Yes.' +'13,624. I fancy that in that week rather more has been paid in cash +than the average, because in the following week £2, 9s. 2d. was +due, and £1, 1s. 6d was paid in cash. In another week £4, 12s. 2d. +was payable, and £1, 11s. 10d. was paid in cash. In another week +£4, 6s. 9d. was payable, and £1,4s. 5d was paid in cash, there +being twenty-five persons employed in that week. Then, in the last +week which appears in the book, £3, 14s. 7d. was payable, and £1, +2s. 7d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed +then also?-Yes; people of course require the same amount of +provisions whether they earn much or little, the amount of their +balance in cash being less where the work has been less.' + +[W. Robertson, 11,248.] + +The story from other places is much the same. Thus, at Scalloway, +where Messrs. Hay & Co. have a curing establishment, their +manager's evidence is:- + +'11,430. Is payment made to them in the shop at the counter?- +Yes. Their advances are entered against them in the book, and +then their wages are placed to their credit; and if they have +anything to get, it is given to them.' +'11,431. Is there a separate ledger account for each of these +parties?-Yes; every one has an account, and when he gets +advances these are put to that account.' +'11,432. Can you say that any money ever passes at any settlement +with these beach people?-Sometimes there has been a little, but +not a great deal.' + +[G. Tulloch, 11,430.] + +The beach fee, which is the usual mode of payment to beach-boys, +is almost always anticipated to a large extent, and the advances of +goods sometimes begin as soon as the boy is engaged in the +winter-<i.e.>, from three to six months before the work is begun. +An example of the practice is presented in the evidence of James +Garrioch, shopkeeper at Fetlar for Messrs. Hay & Co.; from an +analysis of which it appears that of £16, 6s. payable as beach fees +to nine boys, less than £7 was paid in cash, chiefly at settlement; +and of £13, 5s. due to two men employed as curers, only £3 was +paid in money. An examination of the books of Spence & Co. +leaves the impression that most of the men and boys employed by +them in curing at Balta Sound and Haroldswick take goods to an +amount exceeding their beach fees. + +[W. Goudie, 4401; J. Flaws, 5011; T.M. Adie, 5754; T. Thomason, +6241; J. Anderson, 6602; T. Hutchison, 12,608; J. Robertson, +sen.,14,086; J. Garrioch, 8791; W.G. Mouat, 10,277.] + +At Quendale, Sumburgh, and other places, where the tenants are +bound to deliver their fish to the landlord, it is one of the +conditions of their holding that 'they have to supply boys when +they have them suitable for the purpose.' + +[G. Jamieson, 13,361; A. J.Grierson, J. Bruce jun., G. Irvine, W. +Goudie, 4369; J. Burgess, 5106.] + +FAROE FISHING. + +The cod fishing in smacks, chiefly on the banks near the Faroe +Islands, has become an important branch of commerce in +Shetland, In 1871 it employed 63 smacks, whose total tonnage +was 2809 tons. They carried 816 men.' The produce of the +fishing 1871, an unsuccessful year, was 370,597 fish, weighing +14,337 cwt. dry. In addition to these vessels belonging to Shetland +owners, five curers in Shetland purchased at a fixed price the fish +of 21 English smacks (tonnage, 680; men, 210), being 200,042 +fish, weighing 5097 cwt. dry. The whole cure from the Shetland +Faroe fishing was thus 19,434 cwt. In 1867 the Shetland smacks, +61 in number, weighing 2326 tons, and carrying 699 men, brought +home 399,148 fish, or 14,031 cwt. In that year 24 English smacks +(tonnage, 960; men, 222) sold to curers in Shetland 175,125 fish, +or 6280 cwt.; making the total cure in Shetland in that year 21,301 +cwt. + +In the Faroe fishery the smacks always belong to the curer or +merchant. A written contract is made with the men, generally in +December. They agree to join the vessel on a day fixed, or to be +fixed, in March, and to prosecute the fishing until the middle of +August, on the coasts of Faroe, or other places in the North Sea, +exerting themselves to make a successful fishing. If any person +fails in the performance of his duty, his fee is to be reduced. The +owners become bound to cure the fish, which the men split and +salt on board as soon as caught. The owners sell the fish, when +cured, for the benefit of all concerned. From the proceeds are +deducted the expense of curing and of bait, together with a +commission of five per cent. in some cases, for management and +sale, allowances to master and mate, and score money, <i.e.> 6d. or +9d. per score of sizeable fish, to be divided among the crew +according to the number caught by each man. The net proceeds +after these deductions are equally divided between the owners and +the crew, the crew accepting their half in full of wages and +provisions, except 1 lb. of biscuit <per diem> provided by the +owners. The share to be taken by each man, whether a full share +or a half share, 2-3, 7-12 share, or whatever it may be, is written +opposite the signature of each man. The men are bound, if the +master or owners see fit, to leave Faroe for Iceland before the 30th +August 'to endeavour for a late voyage' to go and fish for wages +and victuals on a scale annexed to the agreement. These +stipulations, with some others for the protection of the vessel, are +usually in the agreement; but one owner uses a much shorter form, +which will be found in the Evidence. + +[L.F.U. Garriock, 12,414; T.M.Adie, 5726; J. Walker, 15,941, +15,957; W. Pole, 5956; W. Robertson, 13,603.] + +The vessel is fitted out ready for sea by the owners; salt and curing +materials are put on board at the joint expense; but the men +provide themselves with lines and hooks, and all provisions except +bread. These they always buy at the owner's shop, and they +are entered in their private accounts. It is unnecessary to analyze +the evidence as to the custom of dealing with the merchant-owner +for provisions, etc. for the family, which is exactly similar to the +custom already described as prevailing among the ling fishermen. +Some of that evidence has already been noticed, and the chief +passages are noted on the margin. Some of the evidence led me to +think that the proportion of out-takes to earnings is less in the +Faroe fishing than the ling fishing, and this theory was confirmed +by several obvious considerations. The men are often young men +without families or with small families, and they sometimes live +at such distances from the merchant's shop as to make it +inconvenient to resort thither constantly. Moreover, in years of +average success, the earnings of the Faroe fishing are larger than +those of the ling fishing, and the men therefore are generally more +independent. It follows from the nature of the employment, that +they are also upon the whole a more active and energetic class of +men than those exclusively engaged in the ling fishery. + +[C. Sinclair, 1157; J. Johnston, 12,232; W.B.M. Harrison, 15,720; +P. Garriock, 15,212; M. Johnston, 7868; J. Pottinger, 13,592; W. +Blance, 6099; P. Blance, 8521, (supra p. 15) W. Pole, 5956.] + +It appears, notwithstanding, both from the statements of witnesses +and the returns, that a very considerable proportion, not less than +in the ling fishery, of the earnings of Faroe fishermen is paid in +'out-takes.' Mr. Lewis Garriock, one of the leading merchants, +says: + +'The fishermen's proportion is paid to each of them in cash, +under deduction of any provisions and articles of clothing for +themselves, and provisions, etc., supplied to their families during +the season, so far as they have supplied themselves from us; but +they are under no obligation to take such advance from us, and +can, if they choose, buy their articles from any shopkeeper, either +for cash (which many of them have spare) or on credit. A few of +the men can do without advances, having spare money; but the +fishing could not be carried on if we were not to supply them, +especially as regards the lads in their first and second year.' + + 'In years when the fishing is not remunerative advances merchants +making these lose heavily in bad debts.' + +'I have gone carefully over the accounts with the crews of two +smacks, and produce an abstract of the men's accounts, which +shows that, as respects one of them in 1870, we accounted to them +for £427,19s. 2d., of which they had from us for lines, hooks, and +provisions on board, £71, 7s. 9d.; clothing, and supplies of meal, +etc., to their families, £114, 14s. 5d.; and in cash, £239, 17s. The +other crew, in 1870, had, in lines, hooks, and provisions, £81, 7s. +11d.; goods, £129, 0s. 8d.; and in cash, £374, 13s. 6d. The same +crew, in 1871, in lines, provisions, etc., £63, 3s. 4d.; goods, £67, +7s.; cash, £198, 9s. 7d. Looking at the last two years, as regards +our fishermen in smacks, it appears they have had considerably +more than half their gross shares paid them in cash .' + +'We would, as merchants, greatly prefer a cash system, payment +being made upon the fish being delivered, the same as we do to +English smacks fishing-for us at a contract price-and we derive +about one-third of our cure from this source. But I believe were +such a mode attempted, it would lead to fixed wages, and would +end in loss to both men and owners and a great falling off in this +branch of the fishery.' + +I have already mentioned that some attempts have been made to +hold tenants or their sons bound to engage in their landlords' or +tacksmen's smacks for this fishing; but it rather appears that these +attempts have not always been successful. [See pp. 7, 15] + +The men have not come forward to complain of this. The only +grievance which some of them have stated is, that they do not see +the bills of sale, and that they are therefore not satisfied that they +are fairly treated in settling. + +[M. Johnston, 7868; P. Blance, 8531; J. Pottinger, 13, 658.] + + HOME COD FISHERY. + +This fishery is carried on chiefly by Garriock & Co., Reawick, +who used to have ten or twelve, but last year had only five smacks +engaged in it, with crews of nine hands. The fishing season is +from 1st May to 15th August.* The men are engaged on shares, +and are settled with in the same way as those on board the Faroe +smacks. There is this difference, that the owners do not provide +bread or coals, and the men get seven-twelfths of the earnings. +The men come home every week. A copy of a settlement with the +crew of one of these vessels, produced by Mr. Garriock, shows that +four-fifths of the whole earnings were paid in cash, the rest being +taken in goods. + +* <Sea Fisheries Commission Evidence>, 31,851, 31,974. +<Account of Herring and White Fisheries in the Shetland Islands> +by A. Anderson, p. 22 (London 1834. Pp. 32). + +[L.F.U. Garriock, 14,468; J. Johnston, 12,236; L.F.U. Garriock, +12,474.] + +KELP + +The manufacture of kelp from sea-weed is still prosecuted to a +large extent on the coasts of Shetland. The tang or sea-weed is +gathered and burnt by women, from May till August. In most +cases the fish-merchant of the district has a tack or lease of the +kelp-shores from the landlord, for payment of a royalty of about +15s. per ton. The women are employed by him, or without any +previous arrangement gather the kelp and burn it,- of course with +the understanding that they must deliver it to him. They invariably +have accounts at his shop for provisions, tea, and dry goods. The +merchants themselves state that these accounts generally exhaust +the whole summer's earnings. The accounts are generally settled +in winter,-sometimes, as in Unst, when the kelp is delivered; and +it is not alleged that the women have any difficulty in getting +money, if any is due to them, at settlement. There are in most +districts two prices for kelp, or more properly two rates of wages +for gathering and burning kelp,-at present, 4s. per cwt. if paid in +cash, 4s. 6d. if paid in goods; and it is usually paid in goods. In +one or two places I found only one price, 4s.; and at Greenbank, in +North Yell, Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. pay 3s. 6d. in cash, and +4s. in goods. In Unst, from 120 to 130 women were employed and +at Lunna 60. + +[P.M. Sandison, 5262; H. Williamson, 6337; Mrs Hughson, 6360; +E. Peterson; 6466; J. Anderson, 6632; D. Greig; J. Brown, 7986; J. +Garriock, 8839.] + +EGGS, BUTTER, ETC. + +Every shopkeeper in the country districts buys eggs and butter. +The wife of the small farmer has the management of this +department of rural economy. She takes the eggs and butter to +the shop, and seldom thinks of getting money for them. They are +commonly paid for in goods, which are handed over at the time; +but it does not appear that money would be refused if asked for. I +found no instance of transactions of this kind being entered in an +account. + +[E. Peterson, 6484; W. Stewart, 8967; A. Sandison, 10,169; G. +Tulloch, 11,437; W. Harcus, 11,853; G. Georgeson, 12,038, +12,047; A. Abernethy, 12,254; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,295; R. +Henderson, 12,929; T. Tulloch, 13,015; R. Simpson, 14,022.] + +HOME-SPUN CLOTH. + +In some districts the people make a grey woollen cloth, which +they dispose of to the merchants or shopkeepers. Mr. Anderson, +Hillswick, states that most of his dealings in this cloth are settled +for at the time in cash or goods. Another witness testifies to the +difficulty of getting money, and his being obliged to take goods; +and it appears that formerly there was one price in goods and +another in cash. There is little evidence about this industry, which +is now confined to particular districts. It shows that those who are +free prefer to settle in cash or goods, as they choose, at the time of +delivery; but that where the maker or her husband is indebted, it +enters the account, and the merchant gives such amount of cash or +goods as he judges fit. The wool is sometimes provided by the +merchants at a price fixed and marked in account, and the cloth +is paid for at the current price when returned, the cost of the +wool being deducted. The people never think of selling the +manufactured goods to another merchant. It may be a question +whether the colourable sale of the materials to the workwoman +saves transactions of this kind, in the making of woollen cloth, +from the operation of the existing Truck Act. + +[Mrs. C. Johnston, 8163, 8124.] + +HERRING FISHERY. + +The herring fishery is prosecuted in Shetland to a very limited +extent, and in late years has not been fortunate. It has been said +that this want of success is because the men of Shetland do not go +to the herring fishing till late in the year, when the shoals have +passed them. In 1833 the herring fishing in Shetland is stated to +have employed 500 boats and 2500 men; and the total number of +barrels cured to have been 10,000 in 1830, 20,000 in 1831, 28,000 +in 1832, and 36,000 in 1833.* It is carried on in August and +September by some of the men who have been engaged in the ling +fishery during the earlier part of the season. The men are paid at a +fixed rate per cran, as at Wick, the men buying from the curer nets, +which are put into their accounts. A witness stated that it took +him, or rather his crew, between eight and nine years to pay off the +price of his nets, 'because they had lean fishings.' The price of the +herrings is credited to the men at the annual settlement. + +*Mr. Anderson's pamphlet on the 'Herring and White Fisheries in +the Shetland Islands,' gives an account of the herring fishing as it +existed in 1834, showing that it was prosecuted then, as it is now, +under the same circumstances as to truck and tenure as have been +detailed with regard to the ling fishery. + +[T. Robertson, 8605; W. Williamson, 10,337.] + +Mr. J. Robertson, sen., describes his recent experience in the +herring fishery in the north-west of the Mainland. He arranged +with some of the men who fished ling for him in summer that they +should fish herring also for him, instead of Mr. Adie, for whom +they had in previous years gone to the herring fishing. It was part +of the arrangement that he should 'clear them off with Mr. Adie,' +by paying their debts in accounts with him. It thus cost Mr. +Robertson £300 in cash advances, which, he says, 'account for the +large amount of debt shown to be due in 1870' by his fishermen. +These men get half the fish for their labour, and the other half goes +to the credit of the boat and nets supplied by the merchant. The +price of the herring is the same as that paid by Messrs. Hay & Co. + +[J. Robertson, sen., 14,108; 14,126.] + +It would seem that the large sum required for nets is apt, as at +Wick, to lay upon the fisherman an amount of debt which he is +ill able to bear. + +[C. Sinclair, 1135.] + +PAYMENTS TO PAUPERS. + +In the last Report of the Board of Supervision of the Poor, there is +a 'Special Report by the General Superintendent of the Northern +District (Mr. Peterkin) as to the Administration of the Poor-Law in +Shetland.' The concluding part of this Report describes fully and +correctly the facts as to shop dealings with paupers; and as it was +communicated to me before I went to Shetland, I did not consider +it necessary to spend much time in making further inquiries in +regard to a subject already so carefully investigated. In one of the +parishes, where the poor-law is practically administered, as Mr. +Peterkin says, by these merchants and fish-curers, the inspector of +poor was examined; and his evidence shows, I think, that the +recent action of the Board of Supervision in this matter has been +as effective as could be expected in a country where it is difficult +or impossible to find either members of boards or inspectors +altogether free from interest in 'shops.' An example of the state of +things described by Mr. Peterkin is afforded by the evidence of +Gilbert Scollay, who is employed by the parishes of Delting and +Lunnasting to keep paupers. He is indebted to Mr. Adie, chairman +of the Parochial Board of Delting; he signed an order entitling Mr. +Adie to draw all the money payable to him by the parish for the +support of a lunatic in his charge; and he got part of his supplies +from Mr. Adie's shop, and part from Mr. Robertson's shop at +Vidlin, in Lunnasting, in consequence of his having in his keeping +another pauper from that parish. + +[Appendix, p. 65; J. Bruce, 7638, L.F.U. Garriock, 12,503; G. +Jamieson, 15,407, 15,418, 15,468; G. Scollay, 8387, 8389, 8418, +8419, 8427; Poor-Law Directory for 1871.] + +FAIR ISLAND. + +This island is situated half way between Orkney and Shetland, +being about twenty-five miles distant from each. It is about two +miles in length, and one in breadth. The population in 1861 was +380; but, after a season of great scarcity, about 100 of the people +emigrated to America. Emigration has taken place also at other +times. Thus-'Six families left Fair Island and came to Kirkwall +in 1869. We all left because meal was so dear, and wages were so +low. They all left of their own accord.' I was informed by Mr. +Balfour, of Balfour and Trenaby, that a colony of Fair Island +people form a fishing village in Stronsay, in Orkney, where they +have now been for two generations. At all times emigration must +have been necessary to prevent intolerable overcrowding in so +small an area. and yet the whole circumstances of the island show +that this remedy is resorted to with great reluctance. At present the +island is inhabited by about 40 families, or 226 persons. + +[T. Wilson, p. 425; J. Bruce, jun. p. 330; T. Wilson, 16,656.] + +The island is the property of Mr. John Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh. +Before 1864 it belonged to Mr. Stewart of Brough, a proprietor in +Orkney, and was held in tack by merchants of Orkney, who bought +the people's fish and sold them provisions and goods. + +It was impossible in winter to visit the island, or to get any +witnesses brought out of it. But as the truck system was generally +said to be practised there to an excessive degree, I received +evidence from various persons acquainted with the island, viz.: +Mr. Bruce, the proprietor; his factor; persons who had visited the +island in his employment; and from two of its former inhabitants +now living at Kirkwall, who left it about two years ago. + +The people are obliged to sell their fish (seath or coal-fish) to Mr. +Bruce. They get a lower price than that paid in Shetland. Mr. +Bruce says: + +'As I have to keep a store there for the convenience of the +islanders, I discourage them from trading with any one else, as the +only chance to make my store pay is to get the whole or the greater +part of their custom.' + +'Though there is a rule that the islanders shall not trade with +others, I have never enforced this rule where I believed the parties +visiting the island did not attempt to buy fish-in fact, in many +cases I have given liberty to parties to trade with the islanders; and +the only case in which I have enforced the rule, is in the case of a +man from Orkney who, I had evidence to prove, stole my fish from +the station at night, and shipped it on board of his vessel.' + +'I have no poor-rates and no paupers in Fair Isle, and I have never +evicted a tenant. If a widow or other poor person can't pay their +rents, they sit rent free, and get help from their friends; and my +manager has orders to see that no one starves.' + +And again: + +'13,326. With regard to Fair Isle, is there a standing prohibition +against other traders dealing with the inhabitants there?-To a +certain extent there is. I don't object to people trading there, if +they confine themselves to hosiery and eggs, and that sort of thing; +but what I am afraid of is, that persons may go there and buy fish.' +'13,327. The inhabitants there are under an obligation, as a +condition of their tenure, to fish for you?-Yes.' +'13,328. As the landlord, do you place a restriction upon the sale +of their cattle also?-Yes, there is a rule to that effect, but it is a +very lax one.' +'13,329. Is it not virtually the result of the obligation to fish or to +sell cattle to the proprietor alone, that the proprietor has the power +of fixing the price, and that the tenant has no option at all with +regard to that in either case?-That is not the result. Even +although the proprietor buys the cattle, and prevents any one else +from competing with him, still he respects public opinion so far +that he gives the full value for the animal.' +'13,330. Then public opinion is the only check upon the proprietor, +and of course his own sense of right?-That is his only check.'' + +It is obvious that rules such as these must be injurious, unless they +are worked not only with a sincere desire for the true welfare of +the people, but with diligent care and sound judgment. There is no +reason to doubt that Mr. Bruce desires to be both kind and just to +his people; but it is plain that at Fair Island, as at Sumburgh, his +system has not proved advantageous to the people who are placed +so entirely at his mercy. + +The people complain that they get a lower price for the fish than is +paid in Shetland, and that excessively high prices are charged for +the goods sold to them at the shop. They also complain that wages +allowed for work to the proprietor are too low, and that they were +prevented by him from working at better wages to one Williamson, +who bought a ship wrecked on the island in 1868, and who +employed men to work at the wreck. The settlements are annual, +though sometimes a year has been passed; and they do not take +place till June, when all accounts are settled up to let May. No +money is asked for or paid until settlement. + +The restrictions of the islanders to the master's store is strict, and +indeed avowed; and there is some difficulty and risk in dealing +with the strangers who occasionally come to the island to trade. +One of these, James Rendall of Westray, Orkney, has come into +collision with Mr. Bruce's people; the people of the house in +which he lodged were forbidden to allow his business to be carried +on there, and he was driven to erect a stage below high-water mark +and sell his goods there. Once at least, when Mr. Bruce and his +factor were on the island, he carried on his traffic by night. The +prohibition is directed, according to Mr. Bruce, only against the +sale to strangers of cattle and fish; but the people have so little +money, that that may be held as nearly equivalent to a prohibition +to buy goods from them. + +[H. Smith, 4747; T. Wilson, 16,656; L. Wilson, 16,659; G. Irvine, +13,238; J. Smith, 13,058.] + +The price paid for fish by Mr. Bruce is generally 10s. a ton less +than he gives at Grutness. + +The prices of goods are considerably higher than even the prices at +Grutness. Thus two witnesses say that meal, before they left the +island in 1869, was never lower than 30s. per boll, while they had +bought it from Rendall at 26s. and 24s., and from Williamson, +when he was working at the wreck of the 'Lessing,' 3s. or 4s. +cheaper than at the shop. It could then be got at Kirkwall at 23s. +or 24s. Rendall sold sugar at 6d., while the same quality was 7d. +at the shop; and tea at 9d. and 10d., while it was 11d. and 1s. 1d. +at the shop, and once 1s. 3d. On a rare occasion Mr. Bruce had +loaf-sugar at the shop, which was 1s 2d. or 1s. 3d. per lb. Soap, +invoiced to Mr. Bruce at 28s. per cwt., was sold at Fair Island at +6d. per lb., exactly double the wholesale price. + +[H. Gilbertson, 4734; T. Wilson, 16,656; L. Wilson, 16,659; G. +Irvine, 13,234, 13,235.] + +FOULA. + +CENSUS. + +This island is situated eighteen miles from the nearest point on the +west side of the Mainland. It is three miles long, and two miles +broad. Its hills or precipices are very lofty, the highest point being +1369 feet above the sea. In 1861, the population was 233. The +people are said to be a superior race to those of Fair Island. It is +the property of R.T.C. Scott, Esq. of Melby. + +The fishing and the shop are entirely in the hands of Messrs. +Garriock & Co., who are factors for the proprietor. No other shop +is allowed, and no other traders have tempted for some time to +trade with the people at the island. I did not hear, directly or +indirectly, that any complaints are made by the people with regard +to the business arrangements of Mr. Garriock. It is said, indeed, +that the people are trucked; but current rumour in Shetland, even +among the opponents of truck, does not allege that any gross +abuses exist in the island. The island is difficult of access, and the +only evidence with regard to it is that of Mr. Garriock himself. + +'12,880. Would you continue to supply them if you did not have +the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if +we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth +our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the +youngmen wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to +the Mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it, +and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty +or not; and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to +the schoolmaster, and asked him to circulate it among the men. + + [The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in +the affirmative by 65 men:- . + +'"Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a +curing establishment on the island of Foula, and found the +undivided produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of +it, while furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at +ordinary rates, would, now that some parties have shown an +inclination and even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain +the views of the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to +continue their establishment as before; or would they prefer each +to cure as it suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can? +Whilst there is always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour +and sell their produce in what appears to them the best +market, the isolated position of the island appears to require that one +system be followed by all." ' + +'"The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please +indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the former +system be preferred; or no, if otherwise.-1867."] +'12,381. Were there any negatives to the paper?-No. It created +great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they +would be left to their own resources.' +'12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the +islanders?-Yes, we went on as before ....' +'12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made +by the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we +found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given +it up themselves, as it had not been paying them.' +'12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to +the inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you +green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have +their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and +boats there, and part of their trade would not pay, I may say that we +supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at +Reawick.' + +NORTHERN WHALE AND SEAL FISHING. + +The owners of Vessels engaged in this trade, and belonging to +Hull, Dundee, and Peterhead, find it convenient to engage large +numbers of their crew at Lerwick, where they call in their voyages +northwards in February or March and in May. For this purpose +agents at Lerwick are employed, who receive a commission of 21/2 +per cent. on the wages of the men. None of these agents are, I +believe, licensed by the Board of Trade, under sec. 146 of the +Merchant Shipping Act of 1854; but no prosecution for penalties +for supplying seamen, under sec. 147 of the Statute, has been +directed against any of them, or against the masters of the ships for +which they act. The men are paid by monthly wages at a low rate, +and by sums of 'striking-money,' 'fish money,' 'oil money,' and +'bone money,' which vary according to the success of the voyage. +The whole earnings are payable when the men are discharged, +except a second payment of oil-money-a small balance left over +until the oil has been boiled, and its exact due amount ascertained. + +It was stated by witnesses examined before Mr. Sellar in 1871,* +and by Mr. Hamilton in a Report to the Board of Trade partly +printed in the former Report,** that the chief profit of these +agents, who are also shopkeepers, 'arises from what they can make +out of the earnings of the men;' that the agents are interested in +finding employment for the men who are in their debt, the +inference being that they procure engagements for them in +preference to others; that, for security of the agent's advances, +allotment notes are made out in his favour; that even men who +have means to pay for their outfit are obliged to deal at the +agents' shops, that they may have their assistance in getting an +engagement; and that settlements of wages, which ought by law to +be made at the Custom-house within three days of the ship's +return, are often delayed for months, in order that the accounts at +the agents' shops may be increased. + +*First Report, Min. of Ev., qu. 44,217 ** Report, p. xcix. + +AGENTS' EVIDENCE IN CONTRADICTION OF FORMER REPORT + +Most of the agents engaged in this business came forward to +contradict the statements of the former witnesses, and of Mr. +Hamilton's official Report; and they evinced much indignation, +especially with regard to the latter. Upon their own evidence, +however, the state of matters in times not very long past is not +inaccurately described by Mr. Hamilton. It is true, indeed, that his +Report, as printed, does not notice that the Board of Trade, acting +through Mr. Gatherer, Collector of Customs and Superintendent of +the Mercantile Marine Office at Lerwick, had, shortly before he +wrote, taken measures to secure that the men should be paid +their wages according to law, in cash, in presence of the +Superintendent; but the efforts of the authorities do not appear +to have been quite successful at the time when the Report was +written. Although even now some improvements are required, the +men's dealings with the agents have evidently decreased during +the last few years. + +[L.F.U. Garriock, 12,543.] + +The understanding that men shall get their supplies where they +get their employment is so universal in Shetland, that it is not +surprising that it should have extended to the men employed in the +whaling ships; and although Mr. Hamilton's description may be +coloured by his personal acquaintance with a few extreme cases, a +knowledge of the system prevailing in the local fisheries certainly +raises the strongest presumption in favour of its substantial +accuracy. + +[A. Sandison, 7088; A. Moffat, 16,352; A. Goodlad, 16,399; P. +Halcrow, 15,549; W. Robertson, 16,581.] + +The substance of the evidence on this subject may be stated in a +few sentences:- + + The debts of the seamen to the agents are often considerable in +bad years, and the agents often lose a great deal by bad debts. The +amount of the accounts after successful voyages may be seen from +the abstracts given in by Messrs. Hay & Co. and Mr. Tulloch. +Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Tait agree in saying that the men's average +out-takes still amount to about one-fifth of their earnings; and Mr. +Robertson estimates them at one-fourth. In the case of the +'Camperdown,' in 1865, under the old system, the men's earnings +for both the seal and whale fishery amounted to £1537, 10s. 3d.; +the amount of cash paid was £1120, 12s. 3d.; leaving £416, 18s. +for goods sold. This case was selected by the witness. The +accounts in the agent's ledger are settled when the men come to +Lerwick for the purpose, many within a month or two after the +men are landed, but in other cases, where the men live at a +distance, not for several months. No doubt the men are in some +measure to be blamed for this; but there can be no doubt that they +would attend for payment at the proper time if the agents and +shipmaster seriously insisted on their doing so. Before 1867 the +men received the balance of wages due to them at the agent's +office, the whole of the payments in cash and supplies of goods +made in the course of the year to themselves or their families +having been deducted. The account was balanced by payment of +the sum remaining due after these deductions. Since 1867 the +account in the agent's books is still in the same form, and is +balanced exactly in the same way; but the seaman goes through the +form of receiving at the Mercantile Marine Office the whole sum +due to him, under deduction only of the advances, etc., allowed by +the Merchant Shipping Act. His account is read over and made +ready for settlement before he goes to the Mercantile Marine +Office; and after he has got the lawful sum of money there, he +returns to the agent's office, and either hands back what he owes +for goods or cash advanced over and above the legitimate +deductions already made, or he hands over the whole money he +has got at the Custom-house to the agent, that he may pay himself, +and settle the account in the regular Shetland fashion. The +accounts due for former years to other agents are sometimes +deducted from the balance due; and with this view, it was formerly +the practice, not yet quite obsolete, that lists of indebted men +should be handed from one agent to another, and that their old +accounts should be found standing against them in the books of +their new agent. Down to 1870 accounts were still 'squared' at the +Custom-house in some cases, the agent handing over there only the +exact sum due to the men. + +[W. Robertson, 10,938, 10,048; J. Gatherer, 15,895; A. Munro, +16,193; W. Robertson, 16,631; W. Robertson, 11,130, 11,213; J. +Leisk, 14,632; A. Goodlad, 16,419; A. Munro, 16,161; G. +Williamson, 9624; W. Robertson, 11,029; W.B. Tulloch, 14,382; +W. Garriock, 16,800; W.Robertson, 10,974, 11,031; W.B. Tulloch, +14,420, A. Munro, 16,182.] + +It is explained to the men, when they first come to the agent's +office and have their ledger account adjusted, that the 'account of +wages' settled at the Mercantile Marine Office does not include +the agent's account of supplies, and that he has to pay that +afterwards; or he is told at the Custom-house to go down and pay +his money back. It is still quite understood that the agent having +the first claim on the man's wages in honour, if not in law, he has +to go down at once to pay the amount of his account; and instances +of failure in this respect are hardly known. + +[W. Robertson, 11,022, 11,212; G.R. Tait, 14,529.] + +The outfit and some of the family supplies are almost always taken +from the agent's shop; but many of the men live so far from +Lerwick, that the distance forbids them to deal with him to a large +extent. The circumstances of the men are generally so much better +than those of ordinary ling fishermen, that they are not compelled +to get credit to the same extent, or perhaps can get it near home, +since the enforcement of the law in 1867 gave some security that +the earnings of the year's voyages would not be forestalled. The +outfit is still almost invariably got from the agent; and Mr. +Robertson, whose special mission was to deny everything in the +former evidence and in the Report by Mr. Hamilton, could not +point to any case where it had been got elsewhere. Young hands +in their first voyage must get their outfit from the agent; and as in +their case the outfit is generally very expensive, the number of +young hands engaged since 1867 has decreased, the agents being +unwilling to give an outfit or credit, which one season's wages are +often insufficient to pay. + +[W. Robertson, 10,973; A.B. Jamieson, 14,318, 14, 321; J. Leisk, +14,637, 14,680; W. Robertson, 10,940, 10,954; W.B. Tulloch, +14,448; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,509; W. Robertson, 16,593; P. +Moodie, 14,675.] + +Notwithstanding the enforcement of the law as to payment of +wages, the old custom of dealing with the agent who gets the +engagement is still not without force; and some men say that it is +still so strong as to deprive them of credit elsewhere, because they +are expected not only by the agent, but by other tradesmen, to be +running an account at his shop. + +[A. Moffat, 16,352; A. Goodlad, 16,399.] + +Allotment notes have not come into general use at Lerwick; and +when they are drawn up, they are sometimes taken in the name of +the agent, or some one in his employment. Many families in either +case are supplied with goods as they want them, or, if they live in +Lerwick, with a weekly allowance of meal, the only difference +being that the sums in allotment notes need not undergo the +process of being handed over at the Mercantile Marine Office. +The money obtained on advance notes is often paid back at once to +the agent for outfit or supplies, or rather the advance note is left +with the agent, in security of the goods supplied. It is stated by +Mr. Robertson (10,968) that the first month's advance is paid in +cash. and that the men may spend it where they like. But since +leaving Shetland I have received a very detailed statement by a +seaman, that he was this year refused such payment unless he took +two-thirds in goods. That statement, however, is not an oath, and +therefore does not form part of the evidence. Of course an +advance note is not strictly due until after the man has joined the +ship; but the practice is as Mr. Robertson states in his evidence. +Only one case is spoken to in which an agent refused or hesitated +to give cash for a balance due to a seaman. But in older times it +was usual to 'shove off' the men, giving 10s. or £1 at a time, and +refusing to settle with them. + +[A. Blanch, 9144; G. Williamson, 9608; A.B. Jamieson, 14,311, +W. Robertson, 11,180; A. Goodlad, 16,358; P. Halcrow, 15,552; +W. Laurenson, 15,601.] + +It is in evidence that many men believe that the agents, who have +unquestionably a voice in regard to the selection of the men, +procure berths in the first place for those who are indebted to them +for outfit and supplies. Of course they have, as they admit, a +strong interest to do so; and it is said that masters have complained +of inferior men being put upon them for this reason. But no very +distinct evidence as to this could be obtained. Two cases are +referred to in which agents declined to procure engagements for +men, or tried to prevent their being engaged. In one of these the +offence was having drawn the money due for the sealing voyage, +instead of letting it remain until after the whaling voyage. + +[W.R. Tulloch, 14,490; W. Robertson, 16,572; W. Garriock, +16,280; T. Gifford, 15,552; W. Robertson, 10,959; G.R. Tait, +14,558; F. Gifford, 15,499; W.R. Tulloch, 14,483.] + +While, therefore, Mr. Hamilton's Report must be received with +some qualification in regard to one or two points as to which he +could not have full information, and while it must be granted that a +cursory perusal of it leaves a stronger impression of the abuses it +exposes than a more critical study of its language justifies, its +general correctness with regard to a recent time has not been +disproved but confirmed by the attacks to which it has been +subjected. Indeed, nothing could more clearly demonstrate the +truth of the general conclusions to which it leads, than the fact's, +(1) that Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson & +Tulloch, three out of the four agents at Lerwick, have within the +last two years retired from the business, all stating that the +commission of 21/2 per cent. is insufficient to remunerate them for +the trouble of engaging and settling with the men; and (2) that +all the agents concur, by refusing credits, in excluding from +engagements the 'green hands,' from whom the chief part of their +profits was formerly derived. It is not surprising that these +respectable merchants, whose error consisted in carrying on +business on a system deeply rooted in the country, and which in +more than one case had descended to them from their fathers and +grandfathers, should have felt deeply the interference of new laws, +the expediency of which they were naturally unable to see. But, in +noticing the effect of these laws, imperfectly as they have hitherto +been observed, it is impossible to avoid asking whether some +analogous regulations might not effectually extirpate the truck +system in the other fishing industries in Shetland. + +HOSIERY AND SHETLAND + +In the Evidence, the word hosiery is used improperly to include +the large class of woollen articles knitted by the Shetland women. +The fineness of the wool of the Shetland sheep probably gave a +very early impulse to this industry. It is recorded that in the +seventeenth century a great fair for the sale of hosiery, properly so +called, was held each year, on the occasion of the visit of the +Dutch fishing fleet to Bressay Sound. The Rev. Mr. Brand says: + +'The Hollanders also repair to these isles in June, as hath been said, +for their herring fishing; but they cannot be said so properly to +trade with the countrey as to fish upon their coasts, and they use to +bring all sorts of provisions necessary with them, save some fresh +victuals, as sheep, lambs, hens, etc., which they buy on shore. +Stockins also are brought by the countrey people from all quarters +to Lerwick, and sold to these fishers; for sometimes many +thousands of them will be ashore at one time, and ordinary it is +with them to buy stockins to themselves; and some likewise do +so to their wives and children, which is very beneficial to the +inhabitants, for so money is brought into the country there is a +vent for the wooll, and the poor are employed. Stockins also are +brought from Orkney, and sold there, whereby some gain accrues +to the retailers, who wait the coming of the Dutch fleet for a +market.' [Brand's <Shetland>, p. 132.] + +The 'Truck system' was even then in operation, for Mr. Brand +says: + +'These (Hamburg and Bremen)merchants seek nothing better in +exchange for their commodities than to truck with the countrey for +their fishes, which when the fishers engage to, the merchants will +give them either money or ware, which they please.'-p. 131. + +The finer articles, now known as Shetland shawls, veils, etc., were +not manufactured till a much more recent date. Dr. Edmonstone +speaks of stockings as if they were the only product of the +Shetland knitter's industry; * and stockings and gloves are the only +articles of woollen manufacture specified as made in Shetland by +the writers of the Statistical Account in 1841 [Stat. Acc. 16, 47]. +Originally the trade was entirely carried on by persons knitting +the wool grown by their own flocks, or procured from their +neighbours; and they bartered the articles so made to merchants in +Lerwick or elsewhere for goods of every kind. Transactions of this +kind, which are still common, do not fall within the provisions of +the existing Truck Acts, which apply only to the payment of +wages, and not to sales. Mr. Arthur Laurenson, the head of the +oldest house in this business, says: + +* <View, etc.>, vol ii p. 1 (Edinr. 1809) + +'It is only within the last twenty or thirty years that the women +have been employed, so to speak, by the merchants. It was about +1840 or 1841 that the making of shawls began to get very common +here; and about 1845 or 1846 there was a very great demand for +them. After that the veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, +and from 1852 to 1856 there was a very great trade done in veils.' + +KNITTING PAID IN GOODS + +Although payment in goods, or in account, of work done with the +merchants' wool may be held to be an offence under the existing +law, the custom of barter has so long existed in Shetland, and is so +thoroughly interwoven with the habits of the people, that the +question has never been raised in the local courts, and it does not +even appear to have occurred to merchants that they might be held +to infringe the law. In regard to both branches of the trade, the +sale or barter of the knitted articles, and the employment of +women to knit them, evidence has been freely given by the +merchants themselves. + +In both branches of the trade, it is the custom and understanding of +the country, from Unst to Dunrossness, that payment shall be made +in goods. Formerly money payment was never thought of. Of late, +however, the custom of giving a portion of the payment in cash +has, according to Mr. Laurenson and other merchants, been +increasing. But this alleged increase is, I think, so slight as to be +hardly worth mentioning, except in regard to the very highest class +of articles. These the merchants are anxious to get, and the +women who knit them have learned to demand payment of the +whole or a portion of the price in money. There are few knitters, +however, of this class, and some of them sell their work out of +Shetland. An effort was made by some merchants to show that +money had, in some cases, been paid for hosiery; but the few cases +in which sums of any amount were so paid, and the smallness of +the payments (3d., 6d., and 1s.) which, in all but one or two +exceptional cases, appear in the women's accounts, only prove +how strictly the rule is observed that all hosiery transactions are to +be settled in goods. The cases are too numerous to be specified in +which women say that they never get money, because it is a thing +the merchants never give, and that they never ask for it; or that +they asked for it once, and being refused, did not apply again. I +give a single example. Margaret Williamson says: + +'8314. Do you always get goods for your knitting?-Yes; I get +goods, because I can get nothing else.' +'8315. Do you want to get money?-I hardly ever ask for money. I +asked for a penny the last time out of 35s., and they refused to give +it to me. I bought all that I could buy out of the work I had taken +in, and when it came to the last penny I asked for it, but they +would not give it. That was at Mr. Linklater's.' +'8316. What did he say he would give it in: sweeties?-No; they +would not keep any sweeties for fear of having to give them.' +'8317. What did they give you?-They gave me the penny at +length, but they said we must take goods.' + +[A. Laurenson, 2136, 2168; R. Sinclair, 2399; C. Brown, 17,026; J. +Anderson, 6645; R. Sinclair, 2440; W. Johnstone, 2836; J.J. Bruce, +3384; R. Sinclair, 2436; A. Eunson, 3422; C. Winwick, 15; E. +Robertson, 238; A. Simpson, 313; B. Johnstone, 379; Janet Irvine, +87; M. Clunas, 3459; C. Williamson, 165; Jemima Tait, 354; E. +Paterson, 6460; M. Hughson, 6347.] + +Knitters who sell their goods to the shopkeepers have not always +an account in their books; perhaps, indeed, it may be said that, in a +majority of cases in Lerwick, they have not. It is different in the +country. But as it may often happen that a woman who brings a +fine shawl or a lot of veils for sale does not want the whole value +in goods at the time, or cannot make up her mind as to the +particular article she will take, a balance of the price often stands +over. The merchant will not give cash, unless it has been so +specially agreed beforehand, for he would thereby lose the +expected profit on his goods sold; and the knitter never thinks of +offering to pay a discount for money. The balance is therefore +(where the knitter has not an account) marked down in some +corner of the day-book, or a line or voucher is given. The latter +device has been adopted to a large extent in some shops. The most +perfect, and perhaps the most extensive system of lines, is that in +use in the shop of Messrs. R. Sinclair & Co. at Lerwick. This firm +does not wish, they say, to give out lines, but would prefer that the +women should take out the value at once. They have, however, +been obliged to give lines; and they keep a line-book as a check, +which was produced at the examination of Mr. R. Sinclair. This +he stated to be the second book of the same kind which he had +used since he perfected the system. It is a register of all the lines +issued at the shop, and begins at the top of the first page, thus: + +LINE-BOOK + + 'Line-Book, March 1871. + B.H. + + 6 £0 2 6 £0 2 6 + 17 0 3 3 0 3 3 + 45 0 11 0 0 11 0' + +And so on. + +M. Sanderson, 7297; R. Sinclair, 2592; J. Sinclair, 3251; R. +Linklater, 2695.] + +For several pages at the beginning of the book the numbers are +not consecutive; and it was explained that the unpaid notes in a +previous book had been copied into this book, book, in order to +avoid having to refer to two books in the course of business. + +The notation employed consists of the letters of the alphabet, with +a number up to 100. When the single letters were exhausted, that +is, when 2600 lines were issued, the lines were marked AA 1, AA +2, and so on, up to 100; and then AB 1, AB 2, up to 100, and so on +till the latest entry, which was on January 4, 1872, DA 90. + +Each of the tickets (which are in this form-'CY 92-Credit +bearer value in goods for 18s. R. Sinclair & Co., J.J.B. 22/12/72') +is marked with the same letters and number the corresponding +entry in this book. When it is returned, goods are given for its +amount, or for part of it,-the payment in the latter case being +sometimes marked on the line which is retained by the knitter. +When the whole amount is paid the line is marked in the line-book +'Paid,' and the date of settlement is generally added, thus: + + 'B.H. +93 Paid 18/11/71 W.B. £0 1 6 £0 1 6 +98 Paid 23/11/71 0 15 0 0 15 0' + +The majority of the lines now standing in the early pages of this +book are still unpaid. + +Thus, on page 1, out of 29 lines from BAH 6 to BL 34 (199 lines +issued within the same period having presumably been paid before +this new register was begun), only 3 are remarked as paid. So, on +the second page, out of 30 lines, from BL 36 to BO 24, only 4 are +marked paid; and on page 3, from BO 40 to BR 57, only 3 are +marked as paid. + +Taking as a specimen the 74 lines issued on the first four days of +December 1871, the average amount of the sums for which they +are granted is 5s. 6d. the actual amounts varying from 31s. 6d. to +1s. Out of these 74, 21 lines, amounting in all to £8, 6s. 2d (and +averaging 7s. 1020/21d), were paid at 4th January. It does not +appear whether the extinction of the lines is always effected by +taking goods to the full amount of the line, or whether part of a +line is not, on the occasion of a purchase of goods, transferred to +a new line, which might very readily be done. + +Although Mr. Sinclair has the largest transactions in lines, they +are resorted to when required by most of the merchants who buy +hosiery or fancy goods. + +[J. Anderson, 6709; L. Moncrieff, 11,497.] + +A few other merchants employ the same system of lines and a +line-book on a smaller scale; and they, too, ascribe the practice to +their solicitude for the convenience of the knitters. The merchants +of course have the benefit of getting their hosiery, to some extent, +on credit; they have the use of the money without interest so long +as it remains in their hands; and when they pay, they pay in goods +on which they have a large profit. + +[T. Nicholson, 35; M. Laurenson, 7299.] + + +SALE OR BARTER OF LINES + +It is natural to suppose that documents of this kind should come to +be used as a sort of currency, in a district where money is so scarce +as Shetland. This custom is not so wide-spread as might have +been expected; but that lines are frequently transferred by the +original holder, is clearly enough proved. The merchants who +issue them are chary of admitting that such transfers are made, and +some even seem to think it necessary to take precautions against +such a proceeding. That the practice exists appears from the +evidence of Mr. Sinclair's chief shopman, who admits that he has +heard a 'vague report' that the lines have been exchanged; and +when asked to explain the entry 'To lines' occurring in accounts in +the journal or work-book, says: + +'... Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to +pay another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark +a line for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line +to give to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the +amount in goods.' +'3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of +paying their debt to another?-Yes.' +'3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. It has happened +occasionally.' + +[J.J. Bruce, 3355; R. Sinclair, 2581, 2591, 3617.] + +The evidence of the knitters themselves proves that the practice +of selling or exchanging these lines is quite usual and well-known +among the more necessitous of them, <i.e.> those who have no +means of living but knitting. One respectable merchant in Lerwick +gave up the practice of issuing lines, on account of the trouble and +annoyance occasioned by this practice. + +[E. Robertson, 248; M. Hutchison, 1592; E. Moodie, 1879; W. +Johnstone, 2880; J. Henderson, 11,637, 2897; W. Johnston, 2875.] + +WORK-BOOKS FOR KNITTERS EMPLOYED BY MERCHANTS + +The accounts of women who knit with the merchant's wool are +kept in a 'work-book.' Settlements are made from time to time, +more frequently than in the case of fishermen's accounts; and the +women, though they seldom have a balance in their favour, are +seldom allowed to take a larger amount in goods than is owing +to them for work. I examined a number of work-books, and +among others that of R. Sinclair & Co., which may be taken as a +specimen. Each knitter has an account current with the firm, the +debit side of which contains the amount of the goods and worsted +furnished, the credit side the amount of articles of hosiery +returned, and the sum allowed for each. The book seems to be +well enough kept, and each account bears to be balanced from +time to time. No signature is attached to the balance. The entries +of tea are numerous, frequently more than one parcel being given +in one day. Those of cash paid are very rare; in many accounts +there are none. To Catharine M'Courtenay, who has numerous +dealings, amounting to above £5 in eleven months, there are three +payments of cash, of 31/2d. and 3d. each, on December 1st, 9th, and +19th, 1871. Mr. Sinclair pointed out the case of Marion Sinclair +and sisters (who are tenants of his own at a rent of 17s. 6d. a +quarter, which is entered on the debit side of the account), as one +in which cash had been paid. The amount of the account from +January 16, 1871, when there is a balance against her of £1, 5s. +41/2d. is nearly £10 and the amount of cash paid is 9s. 9d., of which +1s. 3d. is entered 'Cash for dressing. On the other hand, looking +through the book, I found one payment of 10s. in cash to Mrs. +Irvine, Scalloway, and of 5s. to another, while one woman +from Troswick is credited with a payment of 5s. in cash. Other +payments in cash, on one side or the other, occur, but they are rare +and of small amount. + +[A. Laurenson, 2216; R. Sinclair, 2378, 2462; R. Anderson, 3069.] + +PASS-BOOKS + +Sometimes, but not in the majority of cases, knitters have +pass-books. The neglect to have them is no doubt due to the +same reluctance to undertake unnecessary trouble on the one +side, and carelessness or trustfulness on the other side, which +make pass-books so rare among fishermen. + +[R. Sinclair, 2383, 2455; B. Johnston, 385; Janet Exter, 4099; E. +Robertson, 232; see above p. 24. +(fishermen).; Mrs. Nicholson, 3504; M. Jamieson, 14,045.] + +The tone in which the knitters themselves speak of the custom +of the trade varies considerably. In general, they declare their +decided preference for payment in cash; and many came forward +voluntarily to complain of the present custom. Some have felt +it for years back to be a grievance, and have been in the habit +of complaining of it to those from whom they could look for +sympathy or assistance; while all try to sell their productions for +money rather than goods, if they can get as high a nominal price. +They manage to sell many articles to strangers who visit the +country in summer, to ladies who have made a practice of getting +them sold to friends from charitable motives, and to women in +Lerwick who act as agents for merchants in the south. + +[C. Winwick, 53; J. Irvine, 82; M. Hutchison, 1564; M. Clunas.] + +It is stated that there are two prices for knitted articles, a price in +goods and a cash price; but the impression among many of the +people is, that it is better to take the high price in goods than the +lower price in money This is described by Mr Sinclair: + +'2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters, who were coming to +sell to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of +it?-I have. It would save us a very great deal of bother if they +would do so.' +'2610. What have they said to that proposal?- They have never +entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of +women employed to knit for us, but of women from whom we +bought shawls over the counter, which corroborates what I have +already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names of the +parties, but I would know their faces at once.' +'2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Yes. Three girls +came into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell, worth £1. +At that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I +said to them, "Now, what would you take for these in money? I +am not saying that I will give you money, but what would you take +for them in money?" One of them said, "I ken you will just be +going to give us money." I said "Why? Don't you think the goods +you get cost us money?" She said, "I ken that fine. I will give my +20s. shawl for 18s. 6d." I said, "I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it, +and asked her if she would take 17s." She said, "No," and that it +would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl. +I said, "I don't think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can +only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken +off." + '2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not +take money?-No; they did not take money; but another one said, +"I would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a +plaid in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would +it do me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my +pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the +plaid in exchange for the shawl?" That was her answer to me.' + +[A. Laurenson, 2168; R. Sinclair, 2397; R. Linklater, 2726; H. +Linklater, 2920 (contra).] + +Mr. Morgan Laurenson says: + +'7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have +been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I +have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that +the women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one +occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to +another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their +hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but +they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's +undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have +offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in +cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it, +and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash; +and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the +highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a +rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in +selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in +exchange.' + +Some knitters say that the price is low enough, even if it were paid +in cash, and conclude, perhaps illogically, that they are therefore +better to take the goods. + +[Joan Ogilvy, 9752; M. Jamieson, 14,052.] + +SALE OF GOODS GOT FOR KNITTING + +With many women money is a necessity for payment of rent, +purchase of provisions, and other purposes. Cotton goods, tea, +and shoes, which are almost the only things they can get for their +knitting, are not enough to keep life in them. Those who depend +entirely on their own labour have therefore to find some other +means of providing themselves with these necessaries; and it is +chiefly by them that the complaints of the present system are +made. Some work out-of-doors for part of the year, <e.g.> in +fish-curing or farm-work. In many cases they have sold the +goods obtained at the shop, or bartered them with neighbours, for +potatoes or meal. This practice cannot be described as universal, +because the greater number of knitters live with parents, or have +some supplementary occupation by which they get money. But +still the practice is proved to have been so common that the +ignorance which many witnesses profess with regard to its +existence is surprising. Tea especially is a sort of currency with +which knitters obtain supplies of provisions. Even if there were +not direct testimony to this effect, it would be a fair inference from +the large quantities of tea which the pass-books and merchants' +books show that they get. Thus, in one account, more than a half +of the total amount consists of 1/4lb. packages of tea. + +[J. Irvine, 120; B. Johnston, 401; M. Clunas, 3466; R. Henderson, +1295; M. Jamieson, 14,053; Dr Cowie, 14,709; J. Coutts, 15,336; +R. Irvine, 15,748; M. Quin, 16,657; C. Sutherland, 16,660; C. +Borthwick, 1627; 1645; Mrs. Nicholson, 3516; Mary Coutts, +11,601, Agnes Tait, 11,758; E. Russell, 11,583; E. Moncrieff, +11,474; Janet Exter, 4112; C. Nicholson, 11,997; M. Tulloch, +1487; Jane Sandison, 4151; A. Johnstone, 4226; R. Sinclair, 2436; +J. Anderson, 6696; C. Greig, 11,559; M. Jamieson, 14,058; I. +Henderson, 11,656, 11,663. + +Cotton and drapery goods are also sold or exchanged by knitters in +order to get provisions or wool, and sometimes at a considerable +loss. Thus Isabella Henderson says she had to give goods which +cost 6s. 6d. for 5s. worth of meal. Women at Scalloway stated that +they had frequently hawked the goods given them for knitting +through the country for meal and potatoes. Mary Coutts says: + +'11,601. How do you get your provisions, such as meal and +potatoes?-We give tea to the farmers, and get meal and potatoes +for it. We have sometimes to go to the west side, to Walls and +Sandness, for that. Our aunt, Elizabeth Coutts, has done that for +us. She has not been to Walls and Sandness for the last two years, +but she went regularly before. It was only for our own house, not +for other people, that she took the tea there and got the meal and +potatoes in exchange.' +'11,602. During the last two years how have you got your meal and +provisions?-We have knitted for Mr. Moncrieff last year.' +'11,603. And therefore you did not need to barter your tea?-No.' +'11,604. Did you get the full price for your tea from the +armers?-I suppose we did sometimes, but I could not say. +They did not weigh out the meal and potatoes which they gave +in exchange; they merely gave a little for the tea which my aunt +gave them. I have known her go as far as Papa Stour, twenty-four +miles away, to make these exchanges. That was where most of her +friends were.' +'11,605. Have you often had to barter your goods for less than they +were worth?-Sometimes, if there had been 21/2 yards of cotton +lying and a peck of meal came in, we would give it for the meal. +The cotton would be worth 6d. a yard, or 15d.; and the meal +would be worth 1s. I remember doing that about three years ago; +but we frequently sold the goods for less than they had cost us in +Lerwick.' + +MERCHANT'S PROFIT ON HOSIERY + +One of the peculiarities of the hosiery trade, as described in the +evidence of the merchants, is that they have no profit on the +hosiery and fancy articles, which they invoice to merchants in the +south at prices either the same as the prices paid for them in goods, +or so little higher as only to cover the risk and loss upon damaged +articles and job lots. They say that the only exception to this is in +the case of fine fancy work, which is often bought for cash, and in +selling which they can readily obtain a sufficient profit. There is +a good deal of evidence about this which rather tends to show +that although dealers in Shetland invoice their goods to trade +purchasers in London, Edinburgh, and elsewhere, at such prices as +are, upon the whole of their sales, sufficient to keep them free +from loss and allow a profit, yet that profit is very small, being at +most a small commission for the trouble of getting the goods +disposed of; and that they have a much less, but still considerable, +trade with private purchasers, in which they realize considerable +profit. The inquiry into traders' profits was not prosecuted in a +more searching way, by examining themselves and their knitters +at length upon invoices and specimens of goods, because the +sufficiently intrusive inquiry which was made, and which stands in +various parts of the printed evidence, seemed clearly enough to +show that the truth as to this collateral question is as I have stated +it. + +[A. Laurenson, 2199, 2264; R. Sinclair, 2525, 3246, etc.; R. +Linklater, 2728; J. Tulloch, 2795, etc.; W. Johnston, 2844; T. +Nicholson, 3584; M. Laurenson, 7517.] + +MERCHANTS PRICES FOR GOODS + +But while the merchants assert that they have no direct profit +upon their sales of knitted goods, or at least none but the smallest, +they do not deny that, in order to repay themselves for the trouble +and risk involved in the two transactions upon which this profit is +realized, they charge considerably more for their tea and drapery +goods than the ordinary retail price in other districts. In other +words, although there is nominally no profit upon the knitted +goods, there is a double profit, or a very large profit, on the +drapery goods, tea, etc., bartered for it. If, therefore, we calculate +what the price of these goods should be at the ordinary retail rate, +and deduct the surplus from the nominal price of the knitted +articles, we find that the usual percentage of profit is obtained +on the latter as well as on the tea and drapery. + +TWO PRICES FOR GOODS + +In some places, indeed, there are two prices for goods, +according as they are paid for with hosiery or with money; and +formerly this was the custom in Lerwick. Mr. R. Sinclair says: + +'2574. Then I understand you to say that in every bargain with a +knitter, and generally with a seller, of a shawl, the understanding +is that they are to take the price in goods?-Yes; that has been so +time out of mind. I remember a time, about forty years ago, when +it was different, and when there were two prices on the goods +which they sold.' +'2575. There were two prices then-one for cash, and the other for +goods?-Yes; perhaps from 20 to 30 per cent. of difference. I +remember hearing that question discussed at my father's fire when +I was a mere youth. I have been told, although I do not know it +myself, because I was not in the trade then, that a woman may +have bought a piece of goods for 16d., when a party paying cash +for it only paid 1s. The more intelligent of the natives thought that +was an iniquitous thing; but then it was always known and done +avowedly, and the people yielded to it. They said it was not +possible for them to take barter, and sell their goods at the same +rate, because there was so much risk and outlay. That reason +never appeared satisfactory to me; and it was not until I came +behind the scenes, as it were, that I saw the reason for it was that +the value given for Shetland goods was far beyond what it really +was worth in the market. Its real value in the market was about +the same amount less than what was charged as an addition upon +the goods. What I mean is, that, supposing a woman came in with +a pair of stockings, the real market price of which was 2s., but for +which she wished 2s. 6d., the merchant, in order to secure a sale +for his goods, would give her goods in exchange of the nominal +value of 2s. 6d., but he would put 3d. a yard on the price of the +goods which he gave in exchange. That explains how it is that +a person knowing the value of the articles, seeing the purchase +which the woman might have made, and hearing the price of it, +might have said that they were about 25 per cent. too high, +whereas in reality they were not so. She had merely been getting +value for her goods, although she did not know it; and it would +not have made any difference, although it had been as many +pounds higher, while the relative proportions were kept up +between the value of the two articles.' +'2576. Is that done now?-Not that I know of.' + +A discount for cash is still given there by some (or all?) of the +merchants; but it has not been shown, nor I think alleged, with +regard to Lerwick, that the principal merchants now avowedly +sell their goods at different prices for cash and for hosiery. There +are, however, passages in their evidence which create a strong +impression that the custom described by Mr. Sinclair as a thing of +the past is not yet entirely obsolete, even in the capital. Thus Mr. +Sinclair himself has now two drapery shops in Lerwick, in one of +which no hosiery is bought at all, all the dealings being for cash. +He admits that in some things, <e.g.> calicoes, there is 'a very +small shade of difference' between the prices there and in his other +shop, which is his principal one. Mr. Johnstone's reason for +ceasing to issue lines was simply that people used to come to his +shop and bargain for articles as for cash, and end by presenting one +of his 'lines' in payment, which would not have been felt as a +grievance if the principle of having only one price were rigidly +adhered to. The evidence as to the general prices at the shops +which take in knitted articles also leads to the conclusion that, +although articles are nominally for sale at one price, a purchaser +for cash often succeeds in getting a reduction if she is a shrewd +bargainer. The shopkeeper classifies some articles as 'money +articles,' which is a convenient reason for not giving them in +exchange for hosiery; and the impression seemed to exist in the +minds of some keen purchasers examined as witnesses, that goods +are sometimes rather rapidly transferred into that category, when it +is unexpectedly discovered, after the negotiations have reached a +certain point, that the intention is to pay for them otherwise than in +cash. + +[T. Nicholson, 3586; R. Sinclair, 3229; W. Johnstone, 2280; Mrs. +Nicholson, 3510; L. Leslie, 5093.] + +In the rural districts, the custom of selling goods at two prices, +according as the payment is in money, or in knitted articles or +yarn, still prevails. By Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., it has been +given up quite lately. + +[P. Blanch, 8578; G. Scollay, 8639; J. S. Houston, 9715; Rev. J. +Fraser, 8039.] + +There is no doubt that the general prices of tea and drapery +goods are higher where hosiery is dealt in. It may be that a cash +purchaser gets a reduction occasionally, or always if it is asked for. +But there is a general concurrence of testimony to the effect that +goods got by knitters at the hosiery shops are dearer than at other +shops in Shetland. Various merchants admit that a higher profit +is charged, in consequence of the custom of paying in hosiery. +Two respectable shopkeepers in the country say that the goods +which knitters have bartered at their shops for provisions were +said to have been got at higher nominal prices than those charged +for the same things by them. And various witnesses state, as the +result of their experience, that prices at hosiery shops are higher +than at others, and that they would get more goods for cash at the +ready-money shops than for the same nominal amount in hosiery, +where that is rather bought. Mrs. Nicholson, a very intelligent +witness, says: + +'3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in +hosiery?-Yes.' +'3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at +those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the +hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience, +because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase +them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I +don't say at them all; but I know there are some of the drapery +shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a +case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went +into a shop and saw a piece that I thought would do. The merchant +brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another merchant +had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind, and I told +this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, "I will give it +to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;" and I said, "Well, I will give you 4s. 6d. +for 31/4 yards of it;" and he gave it me. A day or two afterwards a +woman came into my house and saw the goods, and said, "That is +the same as I have bought; what did you pay for that?" I said I had +paid money,-because it is an understanding that some shops can +give it for less with money than with hosiery. I told her I paid 4s. +6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she had paid 2s. of +hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or 6s. 6d. for 31/4 yards-just the +quantity required.' +'3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman +and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would +prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence, +and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show +that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any +intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred +accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we +could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for +us." + +[A. Laurenson, 2206, 2245; W. Johnston, 2869; Contra-R. +Sinclair, 2523 sq.; C. Nicholson, 12,004; R. Henderson, 12,916; +A. Johnstone, 4215; J. Halcrow, 4174 sqq.] + +The evidence of Mr. Morgan Laurenson, quoted above, may +be referred to. Mr. Laurenson says he gets no profit on hosiery, +except the profit on the goods he gets in exchange. What the +amount of that profit is, has been shown in dealing of prices. + +[above p. 35] + +SHETLAND YARN + +The trade in the raw material of the knitting trade presents some +features of interest. Some women stated that they could not get +worsted from the merchants in exchange for their work-wool +and worsted being called by them 'money articles.' Further +inquiry showed that this was uniformly true only with regard to the +true Shetland yarn, which the shopkeepers can with great difficulty +get in sufficient quantity for their own purposes and for which, +even if they could keep it for sale, the people would give only the +price for which they can get it from their neighbours, <i.e.> the +same price at which the shopkeepers have bought it. Even when +sold for money, it is given as a favour, or, at least, the transaction +is out of the usual course. But even the Yorkshire or Scotch yarn +cannot always be got from the shops in exchange for knitted work. +Of course, both kinds are given out to knitters working on the +employment of the merchant. Shetland yarn and wool may be +bought occasionally in small quantities at the shops of grocers +and provision-dealers, who have got it from country people in +exchange for meal and goods. + +[J. Irvine, 115; C. Williamson, 152; C. Petrie, 1423, 1430; B. +Johnston, 449; A. Laurenson, 2288; R. Sinclair, 2465; R. +Anderson, 3179; W. Johnston, 2897; J. Tulloch, 2781; R. +Linklater, 2752, 2765; A. Laurenson, 2304; Mrs Nicholson, 3530.] + +The merchants, who give out both kinds of worsted to be +knitted for them, generally purchase only articles made of real +Shetland wool. + +[C. Greig, 11,551.] + +SPINNING. + +In the country, the knitters or the older women in their families +commonly spin their own wool; or if, as in Lerwick and Scalloway +is generally the case, they have not sheep, they spin wool bought +from neighbours or at the shops just mentioned, and knit the yarn +so manufactured. For instance, a witness says that she barters tea +or a parcel of goods for a small quantity of wool, which she spins +herself, having no money to buy worsted-money article-or to +put the wool to the spinner because that would require money too; +or at times she may get a little wool in exchange for a days work, +'but it is not often we can get that.' + +[C. Greig, 11,532, 11,547; E. Russell, 11,572; M. Coutts, 11,617; +Joan Fordyce, 16,049; P.M. Sandison, 5192; M. Jamieson, 14,053; +G.C. Petrie, 1425.] + +Exceedingly high prices are sometimes given for the finest +qualities of Shetland worsted. It is sold by the cut, which is +nominally 100 threads. The weight of the worsted is of course +less in proportion to the fineness of its quality, and 7d. per cut +being where the price of the finest quality, which is rare, the price +per lb. reaches £4, or even £7. Ordinary yarn for fancy work is 3d. +to 4d. per cut, or 24s. to 40s. per lb. + +[A. Sandison, 10,186.] + +GENERAL OBSERVATIONS. + +As I have not had the advantage of considering, in conjunction +with a colleague, the questions suggested by the facts now +detailed, I do not make definite and detailed recommendations. +These are indeed questions of policy, which it is for a Government +rather than a Commissioner to decide. But the duty committed to +me will not be discharged without an attempt to show what is the +general result of the inquiry, what are the questions presenting +themselves, and how these questions are viewed by some of the +witnesses who have intimate personal concern with them. + +MODES IN WHICH WAGES ARE PAID + +The system of barter which has been described does not extend to +any trades or handicrafts in which wages are paid to the workmen +or workwomen, with three exceptions, viz.: (1) the knitters who +knit the merchants' yarn; (2) the persons employed in curing fish, +boatbuilding, and some miscellaneous employments connected for +the most part with fishing; and (3) the kelp-gatherers. The days' +wages also of fishermen occasionally employed by proprietors or +merchants in agricultural work are sometimes carried into their +accounts. If it be assumed that legislation for the prevention of +truck is expedient, there can be little difficulty in applying to these +three classes any Act of Parliament that may be passed for that +end. And on the same assumption, there is as much reason for +protecting the persons engaged in these trades from being +compelled, by their own misfortune, weakness, or improvidence, +to take payment of their wages, or part of them, in goods, as for +giving such protection to workmen in other parts of the empire. + +APPLICATION OF STATUTES + +It has already been mentioned that one branch of the knitting of +Shetland goods probably falls under the existing Truck Act, +1 and 2 Will. iv. c. 37. It rather seems, however, that such +knitting will not be one of the trades to which the bill now before +Parliament applies. It seems also doubtful whether the application +clause of the bill will extend, as it now stands, to all the branches +of fish-curing, or to the manufacture of kelp. See 33 and 34 Vict. +c. 62, sch. 2; 34 and 35 Vict. c. 4. + +BARTER OF EGGS ETC. + +It will hardly be contended that in the system of bartering eggs or +butter for goods, which prevails in Shetland, delivery being made +on both sides at the time when the bargain is made, and the +transaction being thus finished at once,-there are evils similar to +those which legislation against truck is intended to remedy, or at +least that the law ought to prevent buyers and sellers in such cases +from making any contracts they please. This custom, which was +or is not uncommon in other remote rural districts, will probably +disappear of itself as the islands are brought into more frequent +and intimate relations with the rest of the world. + +BARTER OF KNITTED ARTICLES + +The same might be said with regard to the barter of knitted +articles for tea and drapery, where the knitter is in no sense +employed or engaged to manufacture the raw material provided by +the merchant. Here, however, the element of credit or accounting +is often introduced; and it is a question whether, so far as it is so, +this handicraft ought not to be ruled by the same considerations as +the fishing trade. The evils arising from long accounts in this trade +and in fishing seem to point to the necessity of extending to these +cases the prohibition of set-off contained in §5 of the existing +Act and in §10 of the Bill now before Parliament. Another +uggestion is, that a short prescription for such accounts should +be introduced-say a prescription of three months, running from + the date of the earliest item in the account, and accompanied by a +provision that no acknowledgment shall bar prescription unless it +be contained in a holograph or probative writing. + +CASES IN WHICH LABOUR IS PAID BY A SHARE OF THE PROFITS + +In the ling fishing the fisherman may be regarded, if we speak +technically, as a vendor to the merchant. Practically he is a +partner, for the price of his wet fish is in proportion to the +proceeds of the merchant's sales of the cured fish. In the Faroe +fishing the fisherman is more distinctly and formally a partner, +for the agreement signed by the merchant and the crew entitles +him to a share of one-half of the net proceeds of the fishing. The +question to be answered is, whether the principle of the Truck +Acts extends to these two occupations, so as to justify the State +in laying down such rules as shall prevent the fisherman in either +case from taking part of his earnings, although they are not wages, +otherwise than in current coin; and if that be so, what practical +difficulties stand in the way of applying the principle. It is +difficult to read the evidence without arriving at the conclusion, +that if it is right to protect the skilled artisans of Sheffield and +Birmingham, and the highly paid miners of Lanarkshire and +South Wales, from receiving their wages in goods, it is also right +to require the fish-curer of Shetland to give money instead of +goods to his fishermen. By whatever name we may call the +earnings of the latter, there is not such a difference in the positions +of the two classes as to justify us in applying to them different +rules of law. Both are labouring men; for the Shetlander's +possession of a small allotment of third-rate land does not elevate +above the condition of a peasant. + +If we apply to the Shetlander the legal distinctions which occur +in the existing law, he differs but little from some of the protected +crafts in England. He engages to fish the curer, and to give him +the produce of his labour at the current price, just as a collier +contracts to put out coal at a certain rate per ton. If the law is to +protect from truck the man who agrees to be paid not directly for +his labour, but for the result of his labour, the Shetland ling fisher +may be held to fall within that principle. There is, indeed, this +distinction, that his remuneration depends on the price eventually +obtained for the produce of his labour, so that he takes the risk of +the market. The amount of his earnings is affected both by his +success in catching fish and by the fluctuations of the market. The +collier, on the other hand, works for wages fixed at a certain rate, +and the only element of uncertainty is the quantity of his out-put. +The fisherman certainly works upon the co-operative principle at +present; and in considering any legislative change, it may be +desirable to avoid interfering with this principle of the present +system, and unintentionally leading to the substitution of fixed +wages. + +ARGUMENTS AGAINST LEGISLATIVE INTERFERENCE TO ENFORCE +SHORT PAYMENTS + +It is maintained on various grounds that the provisions +suggested for the prevention of truck in other trades cannot +be advantageously applied to fishing. Most of the merchants +are averse to short pays, and I cannot say that the fishermen +themselves are in general desirous to have them introduced. +I endeavoured to ascertain from the witnesses examined +whether there is any insuperable obstacle to the introduction +of ready-money payments for fish. + +The objections may be reduced, to two classes:- + + SHORT PAYMENTS 'IMPRACTICABLE'. + +1. That payment of the fish on delivery would be 'impracticable;' +which is explained to mean, (1) that it would necessitate the +employment of more highly paid factors at the stations, and the +conveyance of considerable sums of money for distances of many +miles, there being no banks in Shetland except at Lerwick; and (2) +that the settlement with the men would take up a long time and +detain them from the prosecution of the fishing, which, during the +summer months, requires incessant activity. + +On the other hand, it may be said that every cargo of fish is now +received at the station by a factor employed by the curer, who +weighs the fish and enters the weight of each kind in his fish-book. +If the price of the fish were fixed, there could be no difficulty in +ascertaining the money share of each man in a particular haul, or +in the catch of a week or a fortnight, as is done in Fife and in some +of the Wick fisheries; and the factor might either pay it in cash or +give an order, which the fisherman or one of his family could cash +at the merchant's counting-house. If the price were left to be +fixed at the end of the season, the law might require payment of a +proportion of the estimated price, as it does now in the case of the +Northern whale fishery. + +The argument, that the settlement would take up an intolerable +time, and prevent crews from getting to sea in favourable weather, +is sometimes fortified by the assertion that the people of Shetland +are singularly defective in arithmetic. Even if we assume this +statement to be correct, there is so little intricacy in a calculation +of the price of 18 cwt. of fish at 6s. 6d. per cwt., and dividing the +sum among five or six men, that a very low arithmetical faculty +would not be severely taxed in checking it. There is little doubt +that in stating this objection, which scarcely deserves refutation, +the simple settlement at landing a cargo of fish, or at paying cash +for a week's fishing, is confounded with the very different kind of +settlement to which the witnesses are accustomed at present, and +in which all the transactions of a year in fish, cattle, meal, tea, +clothing, soap, fishing lines, and a hundred other things, have to +be gone over in detail, and checked generally, on one side at least, +from memory. + +SHORT PAYS 'NOT ADVANTAGEOUS TO FISHERMEN' + +2. It is maintained that a system of short payments in cash +would not be advantageous to the fishermen, because, in the first +place, their improvident habits would lead them to spend their +receipts at once, so that at the end of the year they would have +nothing left with which to pay their rents, and no means of living +in the spring, when the meal from their crofts is exhausted; and, +in the second place, because it is inconsistent with their being +paid according to the price actually realized for the fish, which is +commonly higher than the 'beach price' during the season, or the +market price at the time when agreements for the summer fishing +are made. + +The first of these reasons is felt and stated by some of the +fishermen themselves. But are Shetland fishermen more +improvident than other people similarly situated would be? +Under the present system of credit transactions, indeed, it would +be strange if a part of them were not careless and extravagant, +and it would not be strange if a great majority were hopelessly +improvident and insolvent. No man is more likely to waste his +means than he who never knows how much he has to spend; and +this general truth is not likely to fail in its application to men +following a precarious calling in which there are great runs of +luck, and who have been brought up from their earliest years to +expect their employers to supply their pressing wants in times of +adversity. But the objectors themselves assert, and there is no +reason to doubt, that a very considerable proportion of the people +have saved money in spite of the influences under which they +live, and have, for their rank in life, large deposits in the banks. +If many of them are careless and improvident, that is a reason, +not for continuing, but for altering a system which is admirably +conceived for promoting extravagance and recklessness about +money. If some Shetlanders are improvident, it is the system +which has made them so; and if it be a fact that so many have +saved money, it proves that under a better system the people of +Shetland would compare favourably with those of any other +district in frugality and foresight. If the fisherman had his money +in his hand, it is not likely that he would forget rent day and the +time of short supplies which he has often to pass through in spring. + +[R. Halcrow, 4700; R. Malcolmson, 4781; P.M. Sandison, 5227; +G. Gilbertson, 9578; J. Hay, 5375; P. Blanch, 8565; C. Young, +5815, 5918.] + +It is said that in bad years, when the crops or the fishing, or both, +have failed, the population would starve in winter and spring if the +merchants were not to make advances of meal and provisions; and +that they could not do this, but for the security afforded by having +the men engaged to fish to them for a price to be settled only at a +distant day. Even if supplies of food are not required, men may be +unable to go to the fishing for want of boats, lines, and hooks, +which they have to get from the curer, and which, it is contended, +may properly form a first charge against the proceeds of the +enterprise. Fishing is always most productive when the men are +paid by shares, not by wages; and it is not desirable to introduce +any change which would necessitate the payment of the men by +wages. + +[W. Irvine, 3896; T. Gifford, 8150; H. Hughson, 9599; W. Irvine, +3834; A. Sandison, 10,007; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,605.] + +It may be replied, that however true this may be, it just +presents one of those cases in which the weaker party is likely +to be led into a disadvantageous bargain, and in which, upon +recognised principles, the law may interfere for his protection, +by regulating the bargain so made, or by teaching him how to +escape from the position of disadvantage. The transition to a +new state of things might in bad seasons be attended with some +difficulties and hardships, especially to those who are now +indebted. Thus Mr. A. Sandison, in recommending a system of +monthly payments, says, 'I think it would pauperize a number of +the fishermen, because there are a great number of them in debt, +and in the transition from the one system to the other they would +require to pay up their debts, so far as their means would go' (Q. +10,015).* One cannot avoid observing that this class of objectors +to cash payments exaggerate both the inability of the people to +provide against the evil future, and the value of the 'merchants' as +a source of credit in bad times. It is impossible to judge of the +energy that would be exerted under the stimulus of necessity by +a population which has always had landlords, tacksmen, and +merchants to depend on in adversity. Those who urge that the +men could not live, or at least could not go to fish, unless the +merchants were there to supply their wants, forget that, while the +existing system presents one ready source of credit to fishermen, it +closes up all others. The fish-merchants, by getting delivery of +their debtors' fish, have such a security for their accounts, that +other shopkeepers do not now venture to furnish any but the +smallest quantity of goods to the average fisherman on credit. +But if there was some certainty that the fish-merchant had not a +contra account against the fisherman, at least equal to the price of +his fish, other merchants would not have the same reason, in cases +of necessity, for refusing to give some credit to deserving men. +This is shown by the fact-certainly an exceptional one-that a +most successful business has been established in Dunrossness by +Mr. Gavin Henderson, in a district where the tenants are strictly +bound, and that he has been in the habit of giving credit to +considerable amounts to fishermen bound to other merchants. +And other cases of credit sales by others than the fish-merchant +are recorded. The extension of credit dealings with smaller +shopkeepers is, however, strongly deprecated by Mr. Spence and +Mr. Sandison, partners of the firm of Spence & Co. It is enough to +remark, that such credits would be subject to the ordinary rules of +the law; and that if they were found to be injurious, it would for +the Legislature to consider whether the rule of the Arrestment of +Wages (Scotland) Act 1871, or a short prescription, should not be +extended to them. + +*'10,016. Do you think the fishermen under that new system +would not be able to get credit to a certain extent?-I don't see +how some of them could. For instance, take the year 1869. In +1868 the fishings were almost a failure. Our total catch in Unst +and Yell amounted to £1607, which could not average much over +£4, 10s. to each fisherman. That year we imported meal and flour +to the amount of £1824, cost price per invoice; we paid in cash +for rents to Major Cameron, Mr. Edmonstone, Lord Zetland, and +others, £1600; and we expended on fishing-boats and fish-curing +materials £780,-being a gross amount of outlay of £4223 against +the fishing, the return for which, as said, was only £1607.' + +[R. Henderson, 12,855; M. Laurenson, 7342; D. Edmonstone, +10,658; J. Thomson, 11,711; L. Moncrieff, 11,518; G. Georgeson, +12,032, 12,118; J. Twatt, 12,186; J. Spence, 10,559; A. Sandison, +p. 248, f.n. 10, 494.] + +It may be contended that a law which would restrict the freedom +of fishermen to contract for payment in proportion to the profits +realized on their fish, would be inexpedient; but it is not +impossible to frame an enactment which, leaving them this +power, should require payment, weekly or monthly, of such a +proportion of their earnings as would obviate the necessity of +living on credit. + +OPINION OF MR SANDISON IN FAVOUR OF SHORT PAYMENTS + +It is satisfactory to find one of the most enterprising and +intelligent merchants in Shetland stating a strong opinion in +favour of a system of monthly payments for fish. Mr. Sandison's +evidence on this subject, with which the other members of his firm +agree is as follows:- + +'10,006. Do you think it would be possible to introduce any +system by which the settlement should not be made at such long +intervals?-I have considered the matter seriously since the Truck +Commission was first spoken about, and I have come to the settled +conviction that it would be very much better for the curer to pay +monthly in cash.' +'10,007. Would that payment be according to the quantity of fish +delivered, or by way of wages, or partially both?-There are two +reasons why I think wages would not do. In the first place, the +fishermen would not like to take wages, because if they make a +good fishing they would not get so much as they do now; and, in +the second place, I am sorry to say that with the greater part of +them, if they got wages they would not fish half so much.' +'10,008. Then what system would you suggest?-I think the right +system is just to fix a price at the beginning of the year of so much +per cwt. for green fish, and pay it monthly or fortnightly in cash as +may be agreed upon.' +'10,009. Do you think it likely from your experience that the +fishermen would agree to that?-Two years ago in North Yell, +when I settled with the fishermen there, I urged the men to take +cash payments, because we had no store there, and it was an +inconvenience for us to send goods. We had to employ a man +and pay him, which cost us something. But I found that they all +declined my proposal. In the same year, 1870, I tried to engage +our fishermen in the south of Unst and in Yell at a fixed price, and +I did so. Every fisherman who went out in the south end of Unst +and Yell that year was engaged at 7s. per cwt. I made that bargain +in December in writing; but when settling time came we could +afford to pay them 7s. 3d., and I did so, according to the previous +practice. I might have pocketed £30 by that transaction; but if I +had done so, the fishermen would have thought I had treated them +dishonestly.' +'10,010. Were they going to grumble?-I have no doubt some of +them would have grumbled if they had not got the additional price. +I would not say that all of them would have grumbled, because +there are some of our fishermen who are very intelligent and very +reasonable men, and who would have understood the thing, and +said that a bargain was a bargain.' + +GENERAL INQUIRIES AS TO FISHERIES IN OTHER PLACES + +I have thus endeavoured to state some of the general +considerations on both sides of the question as to the possibility +and expediency of introducing, by direct or indirect legislative +action, a system of cash payments into the Shetland fisheries. In +such an investigation it is natural to ask how fishing undertakings +are conducted elsewhere, and whether indebtedness and truck are +necessary elements in the condition of all fishermen. In the hope +of obtaining an answer to this question, which might either suggest +a remedy for the case of Shetland, or might show how far local and +exceptional legislation is admissible, I made some very general +inquiry as to the state of fishermen elsewhere in regard to the +mode of paying their earnings. For this purpose some personal +and informal inquiries were made in Orkney and Wick; and at +Edinburgh two of the employees of Mr. Methuen, the most +extensive fish-curer in Scotland, who has stations on almost all +parts of the coast, were examined. The prima facie conclusion +derived from such inquiries is, that where fishermen are not within +easy reach of a fresh market, they are apt to be largely in debt to +the fish-curers. In Orkney, the social state of which formerly +closely resembled Shetland as it now is, a great change has been +effected by the improvement of agriculture. The tenants have to a +large extent abandoned fishing, finding sufficient employment +and adequate support in cultivating their farms. In Orkney the +fish-curers have in general no shops. I was not able to ascertain +whether there is any practice of guarantees, such as is said to exist +at Wick and Stornoway. + +[G.S. Sutherland, 16,661 sqq.; D. Davidson, 16,920 sqq.] + +COMBINATION OF FISHING AND FARMING + +Orkney is referred to as showing the beneficial effect of +separating the occupation of fishing from that of farming. It is +not, however, certain that the immediate separation of fishing +and farming in Shetland is either possible or desirable. It is held +by some of the chief opponents of truck in Shetland that the land +will be most profitably managed under a system of sheep farming, +and that the fisheries also will be most productive if the fishermen +are not dependent for a material part of their subsistence upon +their crofts, but are stimulated by necessity to go to sea during the +greater part of the year. The 'improvements' which have been +begun with the view of effecting this separation on the Garth and +Annsbrae estates, have given rise to much of the indignation +which the introduction the of sheep farming and depopulation +has been wont to excite in similar cases. Nothing but actual +experiment, however, will prove whether cod and ling fishery +can be prosecuted successfully from the coasts of Shetland in +winter. The fishermen here do not, like those of Wick, described +in the paper of Mr. M'Lennan, fish all the year round in modes +adapted to the varying seasons. Almost their only profitable +fishing is in the summer months; and it seems to be certain that +the haaf fishing could not be successfully prosecuted in winter +with the present open boats. These, buoyant and wonderfully safe +and handy as they are, afford no shelter, and cannot in stormy +winter weather keep the sea for any length of time. When a storm +comes on the Shetland fisherman makes for land, although it is in +approaching it that he meets with the dangerous tideways in which +the shipwrecks of his comrades have usually taken place. In +winter and spring these storms are so frequent and so sudden, +that it is impossible for open boats to pursue the haaf fishing +successfully. It is disputed whether larger vessels, such as the +smacks employed in the Faroe fishing, or those of the Grimsby +and Yarmouth men, could carry on the long-line fishing in the +deep water and rocky bottom of the Shetland haul, and the best +authorities say that they could not, because on that fishing ground +the lines cannot be taken in by the boats while sailing. It does not, +however, appear whether recent attempts have been made on a +sufficiently large scale to justify a decision in the negative; and it +is satisfactory to know that a company has been formed for the +express purpose of extending the season of the ling fishing, and +carrying it on without the ordinary connection with a shop. + +[Appx. p. 61; C. Williamson, 10,841; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,478, +etc.; C. Williamson, 10,839, 10,794; J. Walker, 15,941, 15,952.] + +INQUIRIES AT WICK + +At Wick many of the resident fishermen are nothing but +fishermen; but some who fish from Wick in summer have small +farms along the coast, and many of the hired men who are required +for the herring fishing come from Highland districts, where they +combine agricultural and seafaring occupations during the rest of +the year. The paper by Mr. M'Lennan of Wick affords interesting +information with regard to the Wick fisheries. It shows, by the +experience of the haddock fishing and the winter cod fishing, +that payment to crews fishing on shares, or 'on deal' as it is there +called, may easily be made each Saturday night; by that of the +winter herring fishing that payment may be made at landing the +fish, and by that of the Lewis herring fishery, how a settlement in +a very extensive fishing with complicated arrangements is made +immediately at the close of the fishing season. + +[Mr M'Lennan, Appendix II; D. Davidson, G.S. Sutherland, +16,806, 16,750.] + +At Wick the herring fishing alone is directly affected by the +indebtedness of the fishermen, and in it alone is the settlement +delayed for two months after the close of the season. The amount +of indebtedness existing among the fishermen, and its effects upon +the bargains which they make, is remarkable. In Shetland, as has +been seen, one-third, and in some districts a much less proportion, +of the fishermen is indebted to the curers. There, £20 or £30 is a +very large debt for a fisherman to owe, and such debts make no +disadvantageous distinction between the debtors and other +fishermen in regard to the price paid for the fish. At Wick, on +the contrary, the expense of boats and nets is so great, that debts +of £200 and upwards are not uncommon; and all who owe above +a certain amount are obliged to fish for 20 per cent., or according +to another witness 1s. per cran, less than free men get. These +statements agree with the information I received personally from +a large fish-curer at Wick. Mr. M'Lennan says that 'there is no +such thing as truck; and payment, when payment is owing, is made +in cash.' But it appears both from his paper and from the evidence +of Mr. Sutherland, that at Wick, and in the Hebrides and West +Highlands, the men cannot prosecute the fishing without supplies +being advanced to them. Except, however, as regards boats +and fishing materials, these advances are not made directly by +the curers, who do not keep provision shops but by the local +shopkeepers upon 'lines' or guarantees by the curers. 'It is +tolerable certain,' says Mr. M'Lennan, 'that the curer receives an +abatement or discount from the merchants' prices of meal, goods, +ropes, nets, or other things which the fishermen procure on his +guarantee.' Nothing, indeed, can be more probable; but no inquiry +being made into transactions between curers and fishermen out of +Shetland, except for the purposes of suggestion and comparison, I +am not able to say whether such a system of disguised truck does +in fact prevail. + +[G.S. Sutherland, 16,805.] + +It seems to be fairly deducible from this evidence, that cash +payments for fish are not impracticable and inexpedient, as some +witnesses have said. The condition of fishermen in Wick and +the West Highlands shows further that Shetland is not, as has +sometimes been thought, a peculiar and exceptional country. +Elsewhere also fishermen have crofts, are poor, and in debt; +require advances for boats, fishing implements, and provisions; +and obtain them from or through the curers to whom they sell their +fish. The evidence given before the Select Committee on the Irish +Sea Fisheries Bill of 1867 shows that the condition of many +fishermen on the Irish coast is worse in regard to indebtedness +than that of any in Shetland. + +The question may then be asked, whether a partial and local +remedy should be applied to Shetland, while nothing is done for +the fishermen of other districts; and whether it is expedient to pass +an Act of Parliament for the protection of a particular trade in a +single county, unless it be fully ascertained that its circumstances +are materially different from those of the same trade in the rest of +the empire. It is for Her Majesty's Government to decide whether +it can introduce a measure for the repression of truck, and the +regulation of agreements between fishermen and their employers, +without having information as to the nature of the present relations +between these parties throughout the empire. + +There is a good deal to lead to the conclusion, if any general +conclusion may be formed from a local and partial investigation, +that fishermen and fish-curers may fairly be subjected to +regulations analogous to those which the Merchant Shipping Act +lays down for the engagement of seamen. It is also a point worthy +of consideration, whether the prohibition of set-off should not be +extended to all dealings between fishermen and fish-merchants, +with this exception, that the curer or merchant should be at liberty +to retain one third of each week's or month's earnings for payment +of any boats or lines supplied to the fishermen by him or on his +guarantee. The carelessness or incompetence of fishermen in +regard to pass-books and accounts, suggests also the propriety of a +limitation of action upon such accounts to three months, with a +provision that no acknowledgments shall bar prescription unless +holograph, or signed before witnesses. + +LAND QUESTION. + +I have not thought myself at liberty to enter upon the land +question in Shetland as substantive part of the inquiry; but it is +plain that the prevalence of truck is due in no small degree to the +habit of dependence, or submission, which the faulty relations +between landlords and tenants have fostered. Here, too, however, +it may perhaps be said that legislation ought not to be of a local +and exceptional character. I may at least be permitted to hope +that, in any reform of the land tenancy laws of Scotland, the case +of Shetland will not be forgotten. + +The introduction of a class of peasant proprietors seems +impossible, except by some measure resembling the 44th clause +of the Irish Land Act, 1870; while the sudden expulsion of the +present population, and the substitution of sheep, would probably +be destructive to the fishing industries as they now subsist. +But the present insecurity of tenure is not consistent either with +the permanent interests of the land (in which the country still +more than the landlord is concerned), or with the formation or +maintenance of a race of independent and intelligent citizens. +Probably a law of landlord and tenant, passed with no arrière +pensee as to maintaining the authority of the landlord, but with the +honest intention of reconciling the rights and interests with the +independence of both parties to the contract, would not permit the +landlord to evict without cause upon forty days' warning. It may +even be maintained that in the present state of agricultural science, +no tenure for so short a period as one year ought to be permitted. +Farmers of the larger class, however, are or ought to be able to +protect themselves in their bargains with landlords; and as this +Report has nothing to do with such tenant farmers, they may be +left out of the question. But in the case of small fishermen +farmers, it is worthy of consideration whether a warning of at +least one year, excepting cases of insolvency or specified kinds +of misconduct, ought not to be required before eviction from +any agricultural holding below a certain rental; and whether in +such holdings tenants should not have some summary means +of recovering from the landlord or succeeding tenant any +extraordinary expenditure they make upon their land or houses. + +. (Signed) W. GUTHRIE. +EDINBURGH, <June> 15, 1872 + +APPENDIX to COMMISSION ON THE TRUCK SYSTEM +(SHETLAND). + +I. LEASES AND RULES FOR TENANTS. + +I. +CONDITIONS OF SET of all LANDS forming parts of the ESTATE +of QUENDALE, in the Parishes of DUNROSSNESS, AITHSTING AND +SANDSTING, TINGWALL, WHITENESS AND WEISDALE, and +LERWICK, in SHETLAND. + +1. The proprietor reserves--(1.) All mines and minerals, limestone +and stone quarries, marl and clay, in his lands, with full power to +work the same. (2.) All shell-fish, and especially mussels and +mussel scawps, and all shell-sand on the shores of his lands, with +sole and exclusive power to take and use the same. (3.) All game +and rabbits on his lands, and sole right to take and kill the same, +with full power to enter on and use his lands for that purpose. (4.) +All lochs and burns, with power to drain the lochs, and divert +the course of the burns, the proprietor making compensation for +damage by any of his said operations; and the tenant being entitled +to take and use, for his own purposes only, the limestone, stone +quarries, marl and clay in the lands occupied by him, and the +shell-fish, mussels, and shell-sand on the shores thereof, subject +always to such rules and restrictions as the proprietor may +establish or prescribe in regard to any or all of these matters. + +2. The proprietor reserves the heritors' share of all ca'ing whales +killed or stranded on the shores of his lands; and every tenant, on +behalf of himself, and all in family with him, acknowledges the +proprietor's right to one-third of such whales. + +3. The landlord reserves to himself all tang and other sea-weed, +growing and drift, with power to enter upon all his lands, and use +the same for the purpose of manufacturing the same, without +making any compensation to the tenants therefor; but the tenants +shall be entitled to take such tang and sea-weed as they may +require for manure. + +4. The proprietor reserves full power -- (l.) To redivide his +enclosed lands, to the effect of placing the lands of each tenant +in one or more portions, and in a different place or places from +where they may have previously lain. (2.) To regulate and control +the use of the town mails, grass, and arable lands, by placing +restrictions on the tenants in the keeping of swine, geese, or +otherwise. (3.) To enclose or otherwise withdraw from the +scattalds such portions, not exceeding one-fourth of each scattald, +to be judged of as at the date of each tack, as he may deem proper. +(4.) To regulate the amount of sheep and horse stock to be kept by +each tenant on the scattald, so that each tenant shall have an +amount of pasturage proportionate to his rent. (5.) To limit the +number of swine and geese to be kept by each tenant on the +scattald, and, if he sees fit, to prohibit the tenants from turning +loose or keeping swine or geese on the scattalds altogether, and, +where allowing of such stocks, to place the keeping of them +under such regulations as he deems proper. + +5. The proprietor reserves all trout fish in the lochs and burns on +his lands, and sole right to fish therefor; and every tenant shall +be held specially to consent, and shall be expressly bound and +obliged, alike as regards himself and all in family with him, to +abstain from fishing for trout (fresh-water or sea-trout alike) in all +fresh-water lochs, waters, and burns, and also in all burn-mouths +into which the sea-water may flow, and in all voes, inlets, or bays, +though consisting wholly or partially of salt or sea-water, into +which any fresh-water lochs or burns flow, and bounded wholly +or partially by lands belonging to the Busta estate; and shall in no +way take, or attempt to take (by rod, net, cruive, or hoovie, or in +any other way), any trout fish therein, unless with the express +leave of the proprietor; and when such leave extends to fishing by +net, then with a net of the size of mesh, used in the manner, and at +the time, and to the extent, expressly allowed and prescribed by +him. + +6. All tenants shall be bound, if required, to pay, over and above +their stipulated rents, their proportion of all public and parochial +burdens which the law has laid, or may lay, directly upon tenants, +any custom to the contrary notwithstanding. + +7. No office house must, hereafter, be erected on the side or end +of a dwelling-house, without the written permission of the +proprietor; and no tenant shall be entitled to remove from out the +dwelling-house or offices possessed by him at the expiry of his +lease, any roof, window, door, loft, stair, or other plenishing of a +like fixed nature, even though furnished and put in by himself, +unless his tack specially confers upon him such power; but the +incoming tenant shall be bound to pay the outgoing tenant the +value of the roofs, windows, and doors of the office-houses, if +such roofs, doors, and windows were paid for by him at entry, +or furnished by him during his lease. + +8. Every tenant shall be bound, throughout the whole currency +of his tack, to maintain good and sufficient dykes of every sort, +including yard dykes, and to maintain sufficient and convenient +grinds in his dykes at all places usual and needful, and to have all +dykes in thorough and sufficient repair, and all grinds sufficient +and properly hung, at the latest on or before the first day of +April, and to keep up said dykes and grinds until the first day of +November in each year. + +9. That in the event of any tenant not keeping dykes and grinds in +sufficient order, the proprietor shall be entitled to enter upon the +lands, and to repair the same, and to charge the tenant 10 per cent. +on the sums expended by him in said repairs; and the amount shall +be held as conclusively ascertained and fixed by a certificate +thereof, under the hands of the factor on the estate of Quendale for +the time. + +10. Every tenant shall be bound to cultivate his lands in a proper +and husbandlike manner, with reference to the best practice of +husbandry in the district, and to consume upon his lands the whole +straw, hay, and fodder grown thereon, and not to sell or remove +any thereof, or any manure made upon the said lands from off the +same, even during the last year of his lease; the incoming tenant +being, however, bound to pay the outgoing tenant the value of the +straw, hay, fodder, or manure left by him on the lands. + +11. In all cases, where arable lands are situated on a slope or +declivity, and are laboured by spade, the tenant shall, when +labouring, delve the riggs lengthwise, or along the side of the rigg, +each feal or fur extending from the top to the bottom of the rigg, +and the delving to begin one season at the right side, and the next +season at the left side of the rigg; and, in situations where it is +necessary to delve down hill, the tenant shall remove the first or +lower feal or fur at the bottom of each rigg, and along the whole +breadth thereof, and shall, when the rigg is completely delved, +carry the said removed feel or fur to the top, and deposit it in the +last fur or hollow at the top formed by the turning down of the +topmost feel or fur, so as much as possible to prevent the removal, +to the foot of the rigg, of earth from the higher ground. + +12. No tenant shall be entitled to bring upon the lands possessed +by him (enclosed or scattald), or to allow to remain thereon, any +stock that does not belong to himself, or any halvers stock, or +stock that belongs wholly or partially to others, even though such +owners or co-owners be members of his own family, without the +express leave in writing of the proprietor; but tenants shall be +entitled to take for hire cattle to feed on their enclosed lands +during summer, or any tenants of parks or islands to take for hire +cattle to feed during the year round. + +13. No tenant shall, on any pretext, keep or allow to be kept on his +enclosed lands or scattald, any swine, unless the same shall be +properly ringed; and it shall be the duty of all persons finding +unringed swine on lands belonging to the estate, immediately to +inform the factor or ground officers, or, the persons so finding +unringed swine, may lay hold of them, forthwith informing the +factor or ground officers of the circumstance; and no tenant shall +be entitled to cut truck or take earth, whether for the purpose of +manure, or any other purpose whatever, or to cut peats, feal, or +divot, or to cast pones, or ryve flaws, or ryve or strike, or cut thack +or heather, or to cut, pull, or to take floss, or rushes, at any places +or times, or in any way or manner, except at the places, and at the +times, and in the way and manner, that shall be allowed by the +proprietor; and, until special places, times, ways, and manners +shall be pointed out and prescribed, tenants shall only do these +acts at the places and times proper and usual, and in the way and +manner least calculated to exhaust the supply and injure the +pasture or other subject; and especially in cutting truck and taking +earth, no tenant shall be entitled to do it where the soil is thin and +the ground high or sloping, nor to scrape mould on such ground, +but only to cut truck and take earth from places where the soil is +deep, or where, from being in a hollow, it will speedily again +accumulate and sward over; and, in cutting peats, tenants shall on +all occasions open the banks in a straight line, and in the line of +the watercourse, and make proper drains from the lower end of the +banks, in order to prevent the accumulation of stagnant water, and +shall carefully preserve the surface feal, and as soon as the peats +are cut, smooth the surface of the bottom of the banks, and replace +properly the surface feals with the grass side uppermost. + +14. No tenant shall be entitled to keep more than two dogs, and +which dogs shall be harmless, and properly trained not to follow +sheep, except when sent after them by their masters; and every +tenant shall be responsible for all damage done by any vicious +dogs kept by him, and shall be bound to part with any dogs judged +by the proprietor to be vicious, on a requisition by him to that +effect. + +15. No tenant shall be entitled to sell or retail, or allow to be sold +or retailed on his lands, any spirituous or malt liquor, tobacco, +snuff, or tea, nor to carry on, nor allow to be carried on upon his +lands, any fish-curing business of any kind, without the consent of +the proprietor; with power, however, to the tenant, if a fisherman, +to cure the fish caught by himself; and that either separately or in +conjunction with other fishermen. + +16. No tenant shall receive into his house nor allow to harbour on +his lands, any useless or disabled persons, not members of his own +family, or any idle or disorderly or disreputable person or persons +whatever, or any married persons (except himself), though +relations, without the leave of the proprietor; and every tenant +shall be bound to maintain all members of his family, who, from +infirmity, age, or otherwise, may be incapable of supporting +themselves, so as to prevent their becoming a burden on the +Parochial Board. + +17. Every tenant shall be bound to maintain good neighbourhood; +to abstain from all encroachments on his neighbours, either by +allowing his cattle improperly to stray on their grounds or +otherwise, and to that end to keep his cattle properly tethered +within the limits of his own grass, ley, or stubble ground, from the +1st day of April to the 1st day of November in each year; and to +maintain in all respects a character and conduct becoming an +industrious and Christian man, and to enforce such a line of +conduct on all living in family with him. + +18. Every tenant shall be bound to bring up and educate his +children properly, according to his means and opportunities, by +using every endeavour to allow of their attendance at schools +where sound religious and secular knowledge may be acquired; +and, by precept and example, otherwise training them up to be +pious, industrious, and good members of society. + +19. It is expressly declared, that all powers conferred on the +proprietor by these conditions shall be capable of being effectually +exercised and carried into effect by, and at the instance of, the duly +appointed factor on the estate of Quendale, and by the sub-factors +and ground officers under them. + +II. RULES FOR THE BETTER MANAGEMENT OF THE SUMBURGH ESTATE. + +Any tenant on the estate can apply for a copy of these regulations; +and on his obtaining said copy, duly dated and signed by himself +and the landlord, these rules shall form a binding agreement +between himself and the landlord, and shall have all the force of +a lease. + +Each holding shall be valued by the landlord, and the nature of the +holding and value declared on the back of the copy of these rules, +handed to the tenant thereof; and the rent shall not afterwards be +raised to that tenant for the term of fifty years, except as herein +provided. + +As, in time past, money has gradually but surely decreased in +value, and land has gradually increased in value in the same or a +greater proportion, it shall be in the option of the landlord, at the +end of ten years from the signing of this agreement, to make such +addition to the rent paid by the tenant as he shall see fit and +reasonable, according to the times; but said addition shall, under +no circumstances, exceed twenty per cent., or one-fifth of the rent +formerly paid, and so on, at the end of every ten years. + +The tenant shall be at liberty to make such improvements on the +property in his occupation as shall be sanctioned by the landlord; +and such improvements, when executed, shall be inspected by the +landlord, and shall be described in a minute appended to this +agreement; and said minute shall declare the value of said +improvements, and the number of years it is considered the tenant +ought to occupy said holding, in order to obtain repayment for said +improvements; and should the tenant leave his holding before the +expiry of said number of years, he shall be entitled to receive from +the landlord compensation for the unexhausted part of his +improvements, as under:-- Dividing the declared value of the +improvement by the number of years of occupancy required to +repay the outlay, the tenant shall receive one part for every such +unexpired year; thus: suppose the improvement cost twenty +pounds, and the number of years required to repay the outlay were +twenty years,-- if the tenant left after five years, he would be +entitled to fifteen pounds; if after ten years, to ten pounds; if after +fifteen years, to five pounds; and so on. + +No tenant shall have a right to claim compensation for +improvements which have not been approved of by the +landlord, by a signed minute, appended to this agreement. + +Should any tenant fail to execute such improvements as the +landlord shall consider necessary, then the landlord shall be +entitled to enter on said holding, and execute said improvements +himself; and shall charge the tenant, in addition to his rent, such +interest on said improvements as he shall see fit,--said interest not +to exceed ten per cent., or two shillings in the pound, on the total +cost. + +Should any tenant desire improvements which he is unable to +execute without assistance, he may apply to the landlord, and +obtain from him such assistance as he may require; the landlord +charging interest on such outlay made by him, as above provided, +and the tenant being entitled to compensation, as above provided, +on his part of the outlay. + +All houses, buildings, fences, and drains, as well as any +improvement made, as above, must be kept up by the tenant +during his occupancy, and in good tenantable repair; and the +fact of any tenant allowing such improved property to deteriorate, +shall debar him from claiming compensation for it. + +After any farm shall have been enclosed, the tenant shall be +bound to adhere to a rotation of crops, or course of cropping,-- the +ordinary five-course shift of <corn, turnips> or <potatoes, corn, +grass>, or other rotation, to be approved of by the landlord. + +No tenant shall cut up the grass lands for truck, feals, or divots, +either within the town dykes or in the scattald, except on such +spots as may be pointed out by the ground officer. + +Peats are only to be cut where pointed out by the ground officer: +the banks to be opened in straight lines, the moss cut to the +channel, and the feals laid down, carefully, with the grass side up. + +No tenant shall allow his swine to go at large. + +No tenant shall sublet any part of his holding, or shall take in a +second family to live with him or on his farm, without permission +from the landlord. + +The landlord reserves to himself all minerals, game, shooting, and +trout fishing on the estate; and shall be at liberty, at all times, to +enter on any holding, to search for and work minerals and quarries, +to lay off and make roads, and to alter the marches of any farm in +such a manner as he shall see fit. But should such action of his +lessen the value of any farm, he will make a proportionate +reduction of rent. + +The tenant shall be bound to observe all the rules generally in +force on the property for the time being. + +<Subject to the above rules, the landlord reserves right to take into +his own hands any part of his estate, at any time, on giving the +tenant legal notice>. + +III. + +ARTICLES, REGULATIONS, AND CONDITIONS OF LEASE, +which are to have the same effect as if engrossed at length in the +Leases agreed betwixt the PROPRIETOR of the Estates of GARTH +and ANNSBRAE, on the one part, and the Tenants of said Lands, on +the other part. + +1. <Length of Lease and Rent Term>. -- The lease shall be for ten +years from Martinmas. The rent shall be due and payable at the +term of Martinmas every year. + +2. <Payment of Taxes>. -- Such local or other taxes as shall be +levied upon tenants shall be duly paid by them when due, or if +advanced by the proprietor, shall be settled for along with the rent. + +3. <Subletting, etc.> -- The tenant is bound not to sublet or assign in +whole or in part, directly or indirectly, without the permission in +writing of the proprietor or his factor. Without similar permission, +only one family shall occupy the subject let. The head of the +family is responsible for the conduct of all the members of same. +The tack is to go to the lawful heirs-male of the tenant, according +to seniority in the first instance, and failing heirs-male, to the +heirs-female by the same rules, without division. But the tenant +is allowed, notwithstanding, by a written deed or letter under his +hand, to select any one of his children in preference to another to +succeed him in the lease, who will be recognised and received as +tenant, upon due intimation being given in writing, provided +that the lease descends to the individual named free and +unencumbered. + +4. <Repairs to Houses, etc.> -- The tenants are bound to maintain, +keep, and leave at the end of their lease in good tenantable +condition the houses, and all permanent improvements handed +over, or that may be added during the lease. + +5. <Enclosing and other permanent Improvements.> -- In +consequence of the land being unenclosed, and in need of +draining and other permanent improvements, the tenants are +bound to annually expend upon their farms, in such manner as +may be pointed out by the proprietor or his factor, improvements +equal in value to the amount of the annual rent. During the first +five years of the lease the proprietor will allow annually an amount +equal to one half of such permanent improvements as may have +been executed in a satisfactory manner (said amount in no case to +exceed one half of the amount of rent). During the last five years +of the lease, the tenants are bound to pay in addition to the annual +rent a further rent-charge, at the rate of seven per cent. per annum +upon the total sum or sums allowed for improvements during the +first five years of the lease. + +6. <Rotation of Cropping.>--The practice of continuing to labour +without any regular rotation, and to exhaust the soil by +over-cropping, being extremely prejudicial both to the interests +of the proprietor and tenants, it is stipulated that every tenant shall +follow a five-shift rotation of crops in the order after prescribed, +viz.:--one-fifth of the farm under summer fallow, or green crop +properly cleaned and dunged; two-fifths to be under corn crops, +but not immediately following each other in the, same division; +and two-fifths in first and second years grass. During the first +three years, as it may be impossible to follow the rotation, the +tenants are bound to follow such orders of cropping as may be +pointed out by the proprietor or his factor. + +7. <Selling Straw, Turnips, etc.> -- To insure the improving the +lands, no tenant shall be at liberty to sell or otherwise dispose of +any straw, turnips, hay, or dung produce upon his farm. All that +class of produce must be consumed on the farm, unless with the +written permission of the proprietor or his factor. + +8. <Way-going Crop.> -- In compensation for the tenants leaving +their lands in a more improved condition, and for being prevented +from disposing of certain portions of their crops, the tenants are to +be paid for the grass seeds sown with the way-going crop, as also +for their straw, hay, and turnips left at the end of their lease, and +for all dung made during the last six months of said lease, all at the +value as appraised by two arbiters mutually chosen. + +9. <Keeping second-rate Animals for breeding purposes.> -- To +insure improvement upon stock, no tenant is allowed to keep +any bull, stallion, ram, or boar, except such as has been approved +of, and permitted in writing by the proprietor or his factor. + +10. <No Dogs allowed.> -- To prevent the destruction of, or +annoyance to, the stock upon the scattalds, no tenant will +allowed to keep a dog or dogs. + +11. <Minerals, Shootings, etc. reserved.> -- The proprietor +reserves to himself the right of searching for, opening, and +working mines and minerals, on paying such surface damage only +as may be ascertained and fixed by two arbiters mutually chosen. + The proprietor also reserves the shootings, and the salmon and +trout fishings. + +12. <Peat-moss, Sea-weed, and Shell-sand reserved.> -- The +proprietor further reserves to himself all the peat-mosses, +sea-weed, and shell-sand, with power to regulate and divide +them as circumstances may render necessary. All tenants are +bound in future to cast such peats as may be allotted, in a regular +manner, and to lay down the turf in neat and regular order, without +potting, and to the satisfaction of any one duly appointed by the +proprietor. The drift, seaweed, and shell-sand to be used as +manure, will be divided amongst the tenants, according to the +quantity of land held by each. All other sea-weed, rights of +foreshore, share of whales, etc., are expressly reserved by the +proprietor. + +13. <Boats> noust,< etc.> -- All privileges of grazing upon +scattalds, removing ' truck,' etc., is reserved by the proprietor. No +tenant is allowed any privilege outside the boundary of his farm, +with the single exception of the boats nousts as presently enjoyed. + +14. <Regulations, etc.> -- The tenants are bound to accede to all +local regulations which are or may be established for the more +orderly management of the property, and the general interests of +all concerned. + +15. <Bankruptcy.> -- It is expressly stipulated, that when any act +of bankruptcy upon the part of the tenant takes place, that his lease +shall terminate and revert back to the proprietor at the first term +after such act of bankruptcy; but to remove all grounds to +complain of injustice, whatever rise of rent is actually obtained +from the farm in a bona fide manner, when let anew, shall be +accounted for annually when received during the balance of the +lease to the creditor or trustee, or an equivalent paid in one sum +for all the years of the lease unexpired. + +16. <Feus reserved.> -- The proprietor reserves to himself the right +to grant feus off any farm, upon allowing such deduction of rent +only as may be determined by two valuators mutually chosen. + +17. <Penalties.> -- All tenants are bound to conform to the +foregoing articles, regulations, and conditions of lease, under +the penalty of forfeiture of all the benefits of their lease, and +immediate loss of their farms. + +18. <Formal Lease, etc.>--A printed copy of these conditions +and regulations, signed by the proprietor or his factor, before +witnesses, shall be delivered to each person who is accepted as +a tenant, and the tenant's name, designation of farm, amount of +rent, etc. entered in a minute-book specially kept for such purpose; +and the tenant may at any time afterwards claim a regular lease +upon stamped paper, to be extended at his own expense. + +19. <Removal.> -- Every tenant shall be bound to remove from the +houses and lands at the expiry of the lease, without notice of +removal or other legal warning, and shall be liable to double the +previous year's rent for every year that he or she may remain in +possession after the termination of the tack. + +IV. CIRCULAR sent to TENANTS on Major CAMERON'S Estate in +Unst, by the Tacksmen, Messrs. SPENCE & CO. + +As there has been, for some time past, many vague reports +throughout the island regarding the change of system in the +management of the tenantry, consequent on the withdrawal from +them of the scattalds, which of late have been looked upon as +more valuable than formerly, with other changes in the mode of +farming, etc., + +We therefore deem it right to make it generally known to the +tenants on the Garth and Annsbrae estates in Unst, that, knowing +the change was certain, and believing it would be severely felt at +first, if not gradually and judiciously introduced; we have, hoping +to modify to a certain extent coming changes, obtained a lease of +these estates; and, with the view at the commencement, and +throughout, if possible, of retaining the scattalds in connection +with the arable lands and outsets, have taken the scattalds at a +fixed and separate rent. The scattalds, on this footing, if viewed as +a business speculation, could be enclosed, as has been done here +and elsewhere, and let out to strangers, or occupied by ourselves. +Such a course, however, we consider would be hard on the present +tenants, and therefore, in the meantime, purpose to forego all +pecuniary advantage which might, by keeping the scattalds, arise +to ourselves, and give such over to the general advantage of +tenants, on condition of receiving for all animals pasturing thereon +a fixed rate per head, to be determined yearly. With this view, and +in order to disturb existing arrangements as little as possible this +year, we shall begin with fixing a charge of 1s. 6d. per head on +byre cattle, 3s. 6d. per head on all horse stock over one year old, +with 9d. per head for sheep, payable at Martinmas 1868. These +rates will be doubled for stock to tenants on any other property +found pasturing on the scattalds rented by us; and before these +neutral tenants will be allowed to pasture stock on our scattalds, +they must pay in advance, and obtain a licence for such number +as they wish to pasture on the grounds. Thus the benefit of the +scattalds will be secured to those who pay for them. Measures will +be adopted to protect the tenants and ourselves from all unlawful +trespass. + +As regards the 'rules and regulations' in force on the Garth and +Annsbrae estates, copies of which have been given to the tenants +in Unst, we have obtained such modifications of these, as, we +believe, will be found satisfactory, easily wrought, and we fondly +hope for the good of all concerned in the end. These modified +rules, however, will not come into operation this year; tenants will +have time to consider them; and, when introduced, we believe +generally, they will see the advantage accruing to themselves. We +do not expect that the idle and thriftless will admire them, but it +may help them to discover that 'Idleness is the parent of want, +while the hand of the diligent maketh rich.' + +From these remarks we hope it will be seen that our desire is to +help and benefit the tenants, and, as far as we can, raise them, +socially and morally. With a strict regard to equity, confining +ourselves entirely to this affair and business, on strictly fair and +just principles, we shall persevere and hope, under the blessing of +Providence, that all will result well to proprietors, tenants, and +ourselves. + +In carrying this work forward, we ask the tenants' help and +assistance; we will study never to present ourselves in a false +light, and we shall at all times claim honest and fair dealings on +the tenants' part; doubledealing, deceit, and dishonesty will be +punished; the idle-inclined and the spendthrift will meet with +encouragement only as they abandon those habits. The careful, +honest, active man will receive all help and encouragement in our +power. Our desire is to benefit all under our care, and we will do +so, unless the tenants themselves prevent it. + + JOHN SPENCE. + WILLIAM G. MOUAT. + JOHN THOMSON. + <December> 1867. ALEXANDER SANDISON. + + +V. + +EXCERPTS from LEASE between Major T.M. CAMERON of +Annsbrae and Messrs. SPENCE & CO. + + +The subjects set are all and whole the town and farms +of Norwick, Balliasta, and others, together with the outsets thereon, as +more particularly specified in the rental annexed, +and subscribed by the contracting parties as relative hereto, +together also with the scattalds, dwelling-houses, piers, booths, +beaches, and all parts, pertinents, and privileges of the said lands +not hereby expressly reserved, and not inconsistent with the +working of the lands under the rules of good management, all +lying in the parish and island of Unst and county of Shetland, with +entry to the said lands and others (excepting as to the following +farms and subjects held on lease by the respective tenants, viz.: +Crossbister, held by Edward Ramsay; Balliasta, held by Charles +Gray and James Manson; the grass parks of Gardie, held by +Alexander Sandison; house and one merk in Himron, held by +Alexander Harper; the mill Westing, now vacant; Saredale, held by +John Nisbit; Muness, held by James Thomson; Collaster, held by +James Smith; and Uyeasound, held by Donald Johnson) at the term +of Martinmas, in the year eighteen hundred and sixty-eight, and +from thenceforth to be peaceably occupied and possessed by the +said lessees for the space of twelve years, say until the term of +Martinmas in the year eighteen hundred and eighty; and with +respect to the said subjects already let by the proprietor, with +entry at the termination of the respective tacks thereof, and from +thenceforth the whole of said subjects to be peaceably possessed +by the said lessees till the said term of Martinmas, eighteen +hundred and eighty; but declaring that, notwithstanding the term +of entry to these subjects is postponed on account of their being +already let, it is provided and declared that the lessees under this +tack shall draw the rents payable in respect thereof from and after +the term of Martinmas, eighteen hundred and sixty-eight; together +also with the right to the said lessees of manufacturing kelp from +seaweed grown upon or gathered from the shores of the said lands, +together also with the right of collecting drift-weed be used as +manure, and the right of cutting turf or 'pones,' but that only for +the purpose of keeping in repair the roofs of the houses hereby +let, and only in parts of the subjects where the same would be +least injurious to the lands; and in the event of any difference of +opinion arising as to this, the same to be determined by the +arbiter hereinafter appointed; together also with the right of +cutting peats in the manner after mentioned in the rules for +subtenants; reserving to the proprietor all mines and minerals, +with liberty to search for, etc. + +And in respect the lessees are taken bound, as after-mentioned, +to expend yearly for five years certain sums on the improvement of +the property hereby let, the one half of which is to be repaid to +them by the proprietors in the manner afterwards stated: And +whereas they contemplate getting their half of these improvements +executed by their sub-tenants under certain stipulations in the +sub-leases after mentioned, the condition of which sub-leases +are new in Shetland, and a number of the tenants may decline to +enter into them, thus leaving vacant farms, and entailing on the +lessees themselves the half of the expense of carrying out the +improvements upon these farms; it is hereby provided and +declared, and the said Thomas Mouat Cameron, for himself and +his foresaids, their heirs and successors, binds and obliges him +and them, that should such a number of the said farms remain +vacant as to entail of annual outlay an annual amount altogether +exceeding one hundred pounds sterling, he and they shall be bound +to advance any excess of that sum, making an annual rent-charge +upon the lessees of 10 per cent. on their half of said advance +(as, for example, should improvements to the value of only +six hundred pounds per annum be effected by means of the +sub-tenants, leaving three hundred to be expended by the lessees, +the proprietors would, in such case, advance the agreed-upon four +hundred and fifty pounds at six pounds fourteen shillings per cent. +per annum, and of the one hundred and fifty pounds expended by +the lessees, the excess of one hundred pounds -- namely, fifty +pounds -- at a rentcharge of ten per cent. per annum): And where +as some of the houses on the property hereby let are not in good +repair, the said Thomas Mouat Cameron binds and obliges +himself, and his and their foresaids, to put the same in good +tenantable order and condition within two years from the +commencement of this lease ..... And it is hereby provided +and declared that this lease is granted, and the same is hereby +accepted, under the restrictions and reservations, and subject to +the following conditions, viz.: <First>, That the said lessees and +their foresaids shall annually, during the first five years of this +lease, and that before the first day of September in each year, +expend, either by themselves or by their sub-tenants, under rule 5 +of the rules and regulations for sub-leases, afterwards referred to, +and annexed hereto, upon permanent improvements upon the +subjects hereby let, in such a way as may be pointed out by the +proprietors or their factor (the laying off and subdividing the +ground to be improved to be at the expense of the proprietor), the +sum of nine hundred pounds sterling per annum; it being provided +and declared that the first annual expenditure, or as much thereof +as the lessees may require, shall be made on fencing, subject +always, however, to the aforesaid sanction of the said proprietors +or their factor; the one half of said sum, viz. four hundred and fifty +pounds sterling per annum, for five years, shall be repaid to the +said lessees by the proprietors, through some drainage or land +improvement company, at the term of Martinmas yearly, provided +always that the said improvements shall have been executed by the +said lessees before the previous said first day of September in each +year, and shall, previous to said payment, have been inspected and +passed by the Government inspector, and shall have in every +respect been executed in the way pointed out by the proprietors or +their factor; or, in the event of their having failed to point out the +improvements required at least ten months before the said first +September, then it shall be sufficient if the lessees have executed +them in the way they deem best; upon which advances the lessees +shall pay halfyearly, at the terms of Whitsunday and Martinmas, +during the continuance of this lease, the whole of the rent-charge +payable in respect of said advance by such drainage or other +company, at such rate as the said company may charge upon a +twenty-five years' loan, but not to exceed six pounds fourteen +shillings per cent. per annum; and the lessees shall also pay the +poor-rates and road-money, if any, exigible from the landlord in +respect of said rent-charge; and it is also provided and declared +that, in the event of the said lessees failing regularly to pay the said +rent-charge and the said annual rent, and allowing the same to +remain unpaid for more than ten days after the terms at which the +said payments thereof respectively become due in any year, then, +and in that event, it shall be in the option of the proprietors, or +their foresaids, to put an end to and terminate this lease, and the +same shall <ipso facto> become null and void. + ................................................ +<Fourth>: That the lessees 'shall labour, cultivate, and manure +such parts of the subjects hereby let as are brought or to be brought +under cultivation, according to the rules of good husbandry, and +shall follow a six course shift or rotation, and leave the same in +that state, but with reference to rule 6 of the rules with sub-tenant +annexed hereto. + +<Fifth>. That the lessees are bound to offer to the present tenants +sub-leases of such portion of the lands hereby let as may be laid +off to accompany their houses, and may, during the first six years +of the lease, sublet to others any farms so laid off, and which the +present tenants may refuse to take and during the remaining six +years any sub-tenancy becoming vacant can only be sublet with +the consent, in writing, of the proprietors or their agent; but such +sub-leases can only be entered into on observing the conditions +rules, and regulations for that purpose annexed, and subscribed by +the contracting parties as relative hereto, to which special +reference is made, and which shall be held to be as binding on +both parties as if the same were incorporated herein. + +<Sixth>. That the lessees shall be bound to leave upon the subjects +hereby let a flock of Cheviot or black-faced ewes average quality, +and not less in number than six hundred of equal proportion one, +two, three, and four years of age, and shall be bound to hand +the same over to the proprietors at the end of this lease, at the +valuation of two persons to be mutually and specially chosen for +the purpose. + +<Seventh>. That the lessees shall arrange that only one family +shall be in the occupation of each holding at the expiry of this +lease, and for at least one year prior thereto. + +<Twelfth>, It is hereby stipulated and agreed on by the lessors and +lessees that this lease may be added to, altered, or modified, by +simple letters exchanged between or modifications be found +necessary in order to work out its different provisions and the +lease being of a nature new and untried in Shetland, that it shall be +interpreted as favourably as possible for the lessees, consistent +with already expressed intentions of the two parties. + + +RULES AND REGULATIONS to be entered into between the +LESSEES under the foregoing Lease and their SUB-TENANTS +referred to, and subscribed by the parties with special reference to +said Lease. + +1. No sub-lease shall extend beyond the term of Martinmas +eighteen hundred and eighty. + +2. Such local or other taxes as shall be levied upon tenants shall +be duly paid by the sub-tenants according to the amount of their +rents, or if advanced by the lessees shall be repaid to them by the +sub-tenants. + +3. Only one family shall be allowed to occupy each holding. +4. The sub-tenants shall be bound to maintain, keep, and leave at +the end of their sub-leases in good tenantable condition, the houses +and all permanent improvements handed over or that may be +added during the existence of the sub lease. + +5. The sub-tenants shall be bound to expend annually upon their +respective holdings, in such manner as may be pointed out by +the proprietor, or his factor improvements equal in value to the +amount of the annual rent. During the first five years of the +sub-lease, the lessees will allow annually an amount equal to one +half of such permanent improvements as may have been executed +in a satisfactory manner (said amount in no case to exceed one half +of the amount of rent), and the sub-tenants shall be bound to pay at +the rate of seven per cent. per annum on all advances so made +during the period of endurance of their sub-leases. + +6. Every sub-tenant shall be bound to follow a six-shift rotation +of crops, according to the rules of good husbandry. During the first +three years, as it may be impossible to follow the rotation, the +sub-tenants are bound to follow such orders of cropping as may be +pointed out by the proprietors or their factor and the lessees. + +7. No sub-tenant shall be at liberty to sell or otherwise dispose of +any straw, turnips, hay, or dung produced on his farm except to +neighbours, tenants on the property. All that class of produce must +be consumed on the farm, unless with the written permission of +the proprietors which will be given to any tenant agreeing to +expend the full value of any such produce sold upon the purchase +of oilcake or special manure to be consumed on the farm during +the same season. + +8. In compensation for the sub-tenants leaving their lands in a +more improved condition, and for being prevented from disposing +of certain portions of their crops, the sub-tenants shall be paid by +the proprietor of the lands, through the lessees for the grass seeds +sown with way-going crop, as also for their corn and straw, hay +and turnips, or other produce left at the end of their sub-leases, and +for all dung made during the last six months of said sub-lease, all +at the value as the same shall be determined by two valuators to be +mutually chosen for the purpose. + +9. No sub-tenant shall be allowed to keep any bull, stallion, ram, +or boar, unless such as permitted by the lessees. + +10. The lessees shall reserve from the sub-leases, for behoof of +the proprietor, the right of searching for and working mines and +minerals, and the right of salmon and trout fishings and shootings. + +11. The lessees shall also reserve all the peat-mosses, shell-sand, +and sea-weed, and shall regulate and divide them among their +sub-tenants as circumstances shall render necessary; the lessees +shall also bind the sub-tenants to 'cast', such peats as may be +allotted in a regular manner, and to relay the turf in neat and +regular order, with the grass side uppermost. The drift sea-weed +and shell-sand to be used as manure will be divided by the lessees +among their sub-tenants according to the quantity of land held by +each. + +12. No sub-tenant shall have an right to strike theek, cut turf, +except as hereinbefore provided for repairing roofs of houses, or +floss, remove earth, or in any way deteriorate or injure the lands +hereby let, without the consent of the proprietors or their agent or +factor. + +13. The sub-tenant shall be bound to accede to all local regulations +which may be made by lessees, with consent of the proprietors, for +the more orderly management of the property and the general +interests of all concerned. + +14. When any act of bankruptcy shall take place upon the part of +any sub-tenants, it shall be stipulated that this lease shall terminate +and revert back to the lessees at the first term after such act of +bankruptcy. + +15. The lessees shall be bound to reserve from the sub-leases the +right to the proprietor to grant feus off any farm, upon his allowing +such deduction of rent to the lessees, and through them to the +sub-tenant, as may be determined by two valuators mutually +chosen for the purpose, and upon his finding security, to the +satisfaction of the lessees, that the said feus shall not be used in +any form what ever for purposes of business during the existence +of their lease. + +16. A clause shall be inserted in the sub-leases binding the tenants +to remove from the houses and lands at the expiry of their +respective sub-leases without notice of removal or other legal +warning. + +17. Lastly, a clause shall be inserted in the sub-leases binding +the sub-tenants to conform to the foregoing regulations and +conditions, under the penalty of forfeiture thereof. + + +II.--THE FISHERIES AND FISHING TRADE OF WICK. + +(Communicated by Malcolm M'Lennan, Esq., procurator-Fiscal, +Wick.) + +White-fishing is but a secondary enterprise at Wick. In the +end of September, annually, a number of boats engage in fishing +for haddocks, and prosecute this fishing till November. This year +fifteen boats engaged in this work, each manned by eight men. +The best boats of the herring fishing fleet are employed, and for +the use of the boat one-ninth part of the proceeds of the fishing is +paid to the boatowner. In local phraseology, the boat is said to be +held by the crew 'on deal,' and the consideration paid for it is 'the +boat's deal.' The average winnings of these boats for the seven +weeks or two months of the haddock-fishing are reckoned at £100, +divisible into nine shares, eight for the crew and one for the boat's +deal. The men hire the boat, and provide each his own lines and +bait. + +Before commencing this fishing the fishermen generally agree +with a fish-curer, who binds himself to take all the haddocks +which they catch at a fixed price. This year the rate was 8s. per +cwt. The price is paid in cash each Saturday night of the season. + +In the end of November or beginning of December the fishermen +enter into engagements for the cod and ling fishing, then about to +commence. This fishing is prosecuted from December till March, +both months included. This year about 30 boats are engaged in it. +The system pursued is much as in the haddock-fishing. Good +boats are hired by the crews 'on deal,' and the crews supply their +own lines and bait; and having arranged with a fish-curer, deliver +their fish to him as they catch them. The contract is, however, +varied to some extent. The men bargain for 'a bounty ' which is +paid to them in cash at the time of forming the bargain. This year +it ranged from £8 to £12, and the bounty is at once divided by the +crew. The fish are sold not by weight, but at a fixed price for each +fish of a certain standard of length, which this year was fourteen +pence for each fish of sixteen inches. All smaller fish are rejected +by the curers, and are sold by the fishermen in the local markets. +The curers pay cash each Saturday night for fish delivered to them +in course of the preceding week. + +Simultaneously with the cod and ling fishing what is known as 'the +winter herring-fishing' is prosecuted. Indeed, the cod and ling +fishing is, in a large measure, dependent on this fishing for +herrings -- fresh herrings being found to be the best bait for cod +and ling. The value of the herrings landed at Wick in course of +December, January, and February in some years has touched +£5000, but generally is very much less. The herrings are sold to +the highest bidder on the arrival of the boats at the harbour, and +paid for in cash on the instant, there being no such contract +concerning them as in the case of white fish. + +By the time the cod and ling fishing ceases in March the fishermen +begin preparations for the herring-fishing on the west coast Lewis +and the Hebrides which commences about the middle of May. For +this fishing much the same up of five or six joint-adventurers, each +supplying his share of nets; or, if a less number of partners embark +in it they hire one or more fishermen to complete the crew and of +course, have each a larger share of the profits. Generally they +take with them in their boats their supplies of meal, groceries, +and biscuit, etc. In the west-coast fishing, so far as boats from +Caithness engage in it, the fishermen engage themselves to deliver +all their fish to a curer at an agreed on price per cran, which price +is paid in cash at the end of the fishing, about 1st July. In the +majority of cases the men get an advance of cash from the curers +when fitting out their boats, to the amount of £4 or £5 per man. +Such sums, of course, are deducted from the price of the herrings +in the final settlement. + +The Caithness herring-fishing next follows, commencing about +18th July, and lasting till 6th or 10th September. Hitherto +the whole course of the dealings between the fishermen and +fish-curers noticed in this statement has been unexceptionable, +being simply the delivery of fish by the former at agreed on rates +of price, paid by the latter, the curers, in cash at short periods. In +the great Caithness herring-fishing a change of system occurs, +which appears to be mainly owing to the heavy cost of the boats +and material employed, and the heavy sums disbursed by each +boat for labour and maintenance in each season. + +A new fishing-boat of the best class costs from £120 to £140, +including sails and rigging complete. A drift of 35 nets (and the +drift often consists of a greater number), at 10s. per net, is value +for £120. A boat well kept is reckoned to stand fourteen years. +The drift of nets is said to require renewal every eight years. + +The ordinary case is, that one fisherman is either really or +nominally owner of the boat and drift with which he engages +in this fishing. At least a fisherman actually undertakes the +whole enterprise of the season's fishing with the boat of which +he has possession with all the liabilities attending it. This is, +however, subject to variation, as sometimes two men, and +sometimes but less frequently three men, are the real or nominal +owners of a boat and take the risks of it . Assuming that a man +starts with a new boat and drift free of debt, not only must he have +a capital of about £250 invested in these, but he must be prepared +to undertake further the following charges of the season:-- + +1 Wages of four hired men (generally +strangers from the Highlands or Islands) +and a boy, ...... £ 30 0 0 +2. Their lodgings, ..... 3 0 0 +3. Their allowance of meal, .... 4 0 0 +4. Cost of barking nets, .... 3 0 0 +5. Cartage and drying-green for nets,. . 3 0 0 +6. Harbour dues, ..... 1 0 0 + 44 0 0 + + But taking into account that accidentally many nets are lost or +destroyed in each year, and that the fishing is prosecuted in boats, +and with nets more or less worn, and that thus there is need of +considerable annual repair and replacement, it will be seen that in +the ordinary case the expense of a fishing season is largely greater +than in the case of an adventure, with a new boat and drift. Thus +the expense, as above, ..... + £ 44 0 0 + Replacing 4 nets, ..... 14 0 0 + Repairing drift, ..... 2 0 0 + Repairing and tarring boat, barking ropes, + sails, etc. , ...... 2 0 0 + To which falls to be added, to meet + the annual deterioration of the boat 10 0 0 + £72 0 0 + +It follows that the fisherman can have no advantage from the +Caithness herring-fishing unless his boat clears a sum of £ 72, or +thereabout, in which case the surplus over that amount will +constitute his profit. + +But if the fisherman has borrowed the money invested in the +boat and nets, it is apparent that his annual burden is increased +by the sum of interest which he must pay for it. And this leads to +reference to a local custom of some importance. If the fisherman +has borrowed the money to purchase his boat and nets, or if, as is +usually the case, he receives them from a fish-curer to whom he +thus becomes debtor for their value, he does so on the condition -- +very natural in the circumstances -- that he shall deliver all his fish +to the creditor as long as he remains in debt. In such a case the +price of the herrings is not fixed by contract, but is 'the general +terms' of price conceded by fish-curers to fishermen in their debt; +and these terms are generally about 20 per cent. below the price +paid by the curers to men free of debt, and able to bargain +beforehand concerning it. This is so while interest is charged +on the amount of the debt, or while the fisherman is charged with +'boat's deal' as he usually is, when the debt is not wiped off within +the second year. + +For the years 1860-70, the average annual take of herrings was +only 86 crans. The average price is not stated in any tabular form, +but it certainly did not amount to £1 per cran under 'the general +terms' system. Thus, assuming that that portion of the herring +fleet held by fishermen in debt fished its fair average of these +eleven years, it will be seen that the total sum realized but barely +sufficed to meet the necessary outlays of the season, and to pay +interest on the capital involved + +This average, however, represents the mean of success and failure. +In every year a few boats fish largely in excess of the average, and +a still larger number fall more or less short of it. The latter lose +money, if they have money to lose. They who have none fall into +debt, or into deeper debt. It is said that fully two-thirds of the +fishermen are in debt, and pursue this extensive enterprise +burdened with all the disadvantages of debt. Their debts range +from all kinds of figures up to £300. + +Still there is no such thing as truck; and payment, when payment is +owing, is made in cash. In the case of men free of debt, the price, +being fixed, is at once paid at the close of the fishing, or soon +thereafter. In the case of men in debt, circumstances make the +settlement more complicated. At the outset of his career the +fisherman is desirous of standing as little as possible in debt to his +curer. One or two unsuccessful seasons or seasons of but partial +success quickly change his view and he becomes eager to lay as +much of the burden of the fishing as possible on the fishcurer. +Thus, when he wants nets, he calls on the curer to guarantee +payment to the seller of nets. He gets tar, and cutch, and ropes in +the same way. The curer guarantees payment of the wages, meal, +and other supplies of the crew; and of the cartage of the nets, and +the rent of their drying ground. All these are, of course, debited in +the fisherman's account. Generally the curer pays off all those +claims that require instant settlement at the close of the fishing +season. If things have gone fairly well, he may make the man a +payment in cash at the same time; but the final settlement of the +year is postponed till Martinmas, when, if cash is owing, it is paid. +If no balance accrues to the fisherman, his account is handed to +him; and if he is a crofter, or a reliable man the curer advances to +him £12 or £20, to pay his rent and tide him over the hard times in +winter. Sometimes the curer assists his fishermen debtors by +supplies of meal for their families in winter, the meal being +procured by the curer's orders to millers or meal dealers. + +It is tolerably certain that the curer receives an abatement or +discount from the merchant's prices of the meal, goods, ropes, +nets, or other things which the fishermen procure on his +guarantee. But sometimes the guarantee is an open one, with +which the fisherman goes to any merchant he chooses making +the best bargain he can. + +Thus the basis of the system in this, the herring-fishing, is also +mainly one of cash payments. On the first relation of it, too, it +seems a system conducted in very liberal ways, inasmuch as the +fish-curers are prompt to supply the capital, or the boat and +materials equivalent to the capital, needed by the fisherman, and +to pay him promptly the whole profits. But this, a thing unusual in +ordinary commercial dealings, lays the system open to suspicion; +and it is, in fact, highly objectionable, and replete with hard and +injurious consequences to the fishermen. Take an ordinary case. A +fisherman has made a lucky fishing with an old boat, and finds +himself at the end of the year clear of debt, or near to that +fortunate condition. He has for years used the old boat, as he +knows, at a serious disadvantage, for the old boat and defective +gearing are insufficient to carry the fisherman twenty or more +miles from shore nightly, and at such distances the shoals of +herrings often are. His curer will give him a boat one year old, +and he takes it, agreeing to pay for it what it originally cost the +curer. If the old boat is worth anything, the curer will take it in +part payment. But thus the fisherman at once becomes debtor in +a £100 or thereby, and bound to fish on 'general terms.' He has +probably been so bound all his fishing career. In the same way, a +fish-curer will readily trust a boat to a smart young fisherman +wishing to start on his own account. Of course, the curer takes +care that he has power by writing to seize the boat again, if +necessary for his security. + +It is commonly calculated that few men fish over 100 crans of +herrings oftener than in one season out of five and all the chances +are that our fisherman will do little to reduce his debt for some +years to come. If the price is not paid by a lucky fishing in the first +year, but runs unpaid to a second or third, the curer generally +charges the man with deal for the boat, £10 or £14 as may be, and +this year after year; so that, when at last the price is paid, and the +fisherman gets free, the boat has actually cost him £150 or more. +This, however, only occurs with fish-curers who are of a lower +class than the most respectable. The leading men in the trade +generally credit the sums paid as deal in the final settlement of the +boat's price. + +The probabilities are that the fisherman will increase the debt year +after year, for some years. Then the curer takes from him a +sale-note of the boat and of his drift. The boat is beached, so as to +preserve the curer's right to it. The nets are sent to his store. The +generosity of the original transaction disappears. It is, of course, +understood that the boat and nets may be redeemed; but in many +cases interest is added to the debt year after year, the deal is +always charged for the boat, and the fisherman loses about 20 per +cent. of his earnings by the 'general terms.' The sense of failure +operates injuriously on the man, perhaps makes him negligent. He +finds the curer disinclined to increase the debt by an additional +advance of money just when money is most necessary to him for +subsistence, and things go on from bad to worse. At last his year +of luck comes round. He fishes 100 or 120 crans, perhaps 200 +crans. His debt is reduced so as to be fairly less than the value of +the boat and drift. Then he may go on for another course of the +same risk and indebtedness. But not unfrequently the curer at this +juncture closes the transaction by retaining and appropriating the +boat and drift, and dismissing the man. The appropriation is made +not seldom without any valuation of the property, and the man is +dismissed without discharge or balancing of the debt. + +The disadvantages of this system to the fishermen are apparent, +and are really very great. <First>, Responsibility for the whole +expenses of the fishing is cast upon them, while really the boats +and nets are the fishcurer's. <Second>, They are charged with the +maintenance of these boats and nets, in effect to keep the curer's +capital put into their hands as near to its original value as possible. +<Third>, They pay interest in some cases, and not seldom an +arbitrary profit on part of the capital in form of boat's deal. +<Fourth>, They receive 20 per cent. less for their fish than free +fishermen do. + +The disadvantages of the fishermen are the advantages of the +fish-curers. But these advantages are not wholly unmixed. The +fish-curer has not only in the majority of cases to find the boats +and nets, but to disburse all the charges of the fishing where the +proceeds of the catch are insufficient to do it, and 'to keep on' +the fishermen by advances for their food and rents. Thus the +aggregate of the debts is a continual strain on the curer's capital, +and payment is as uncertain as the chances of fishermen +individually getting extraordinary hauls of fish. There is still +further the risk of the debtor dying, in which event the debt is +wholly lost beyond the value of the boat and nets. On the death +of a fish-curer recently, his books were found to contain about +£16,000 of debts due to him by fishermen, and these for the most +part valueless. Still, if the system were not advantageous to the +curers, it is plain that they would not conduct their trade in so +questionable a method. + +The fisherman's profits in good years are swallowed up by the +charges and drawbacks of bad and indifferent years, unless happily +there be for him a succession of good years. But, considering how +little the average value of the fishing exceeds the actual outlays of +the year, it is not surprising that this great fishing should be carried +on under a mass of debt, spread over fully two-thirds of the fleet. +It is unquestionably a national misfortune that any great enterprise +like the Caithness herring-fishing should be conducted under such +serious disadvantages, and with such unfortunate results to the +large and adventurous class of men who labour in it. + +These results are mainly owing to the great error of the fishermen +in accepting the use of capital on terms unreasonably to their own +disadvantage, standing debtor for the whole charges of the fishing, +and submitting to the large deduction of 20 per cent. on the value +of their fish. But they do it with their eyes open; and it is of +contract, partly expressed and partly understood, and regulated by +local custom. If it were desirable to regulate the arrangements of +the trade by Act of Parliament, and if it were provided (1) that no +person could advance money or money's worth to a fisherman, +with the view of engaging in or equipping him for the fishing, +without thereby constituting himself a partner of the fisherman, to +the extent of such advance, proportionately to the value of the +boat, drift of nets, etc. possessed by the fisherman and used in the +fishing, and becoming liable as such partner for a proportional +share of the charges of the fisherman's adventure, and (2) that the +custom of fixing the price 'by general terms' be abolished; the +trade would, it is thought, soon revert to legitimate methods of +dealing. The real capitalist would share the risks and generally +engross them; while the labour and zeal of the individual +fisherman, who may have only his labour and zeal to give, would +find their value in wages or other remuneration. But it is not to be +denied that any such legislation would be extremely arbitrary and +indefensible in principle. + +It should here be stated that what the fishermen earn in +white-fishing, and in the winter and Lewis herring-fishing, +is always paid in cash, irrespective of the debt resting owing +in respect of the Caithness herring-fishing. The individual +debtor of the herring-fishing is lost in the five, six, or eight +joint-adventurers who man the boats in the fishings +first mentioned. + +The men who hire themselves as boatmen for the herring-fishing +season bargain for wages to be paid in cash at the end of the +season. These wages vary from £4 to £8, according to the skill or +strength of the boatman. Besides the money wages, these men +have lodgings and cooking of their food supplied to them, and +each receives a stone of meal weekly. The money wage is payable +at the close of the fishing, and is always paid in cash. The number +of men so employed is about 4000 at Wick alone. + +These men make their engagements with the boatmasters, who, as +already stated, are ostensibly owners of the boats. They used to +experience much hardship by the failure of the boatmasters to pay +them in bad years. To enforce payment was difficult, for the +fish-curers were invariably found to be the owners of the boats and +nets, the sole possessions of the boatmasters. This has come to be +remedied to a great extent by the men refusing to engage without +receiving a guarantee for payment by the curer. + +With regard to coopers, they are engaged for terms longer or +shorter, to make barrels at current wages or rates, and payments +are fortnightly and always in cash. + +The women employed in gutting and curing the herring are +engaged for the season. They are paid 6d. per barrel, and 1s. 3d. +a day for repacking and filling up the barrels. 1500 of them may +be employed. The payments are made in cash at the end of the +season. + +Thus it will be seen that the whole business of the Caithness +fishings is based on cash payments; and if it were not for the +specialties of the herring-fishing, the whole would be sound and +equitable. These specialties operate so extensive an injury, that +they well merit the attention of the Legislature. + +It remains to be noticed that the inducements to engage in the +herring-fishing under all the disadvantages set forth are very great. +It has all the precarious and enticing character of a lottery. Every +year a few lucky men fish large hauls, exceeding £200 in value in +the brief fishing season. As a rule, fishermen marry young; and +how can the young fisherman so easily procure the means or +chance of livelihood as by accepting the boat and nets which +the curer so readily offers? But, apart from any such special +prompting, our fishermen, essentially venturous, all too eagerly +incur the debt and risk a life of indebtedness for the chance of +winning the comparative comfort to which a few, a very few, of +their class attain. I know of no class requiring protection from +their own recklessness in these contracts more than do the +fishermen of Caithness. + + +III.-- EXTRACTS FROM LETTER FROM REV. MR. ARTHUR, +UYEA SOUND, UNST. + + UYEA SOUND, 1<st Feb>. 1872. +I have yours of the 26th Jan. '72, making inquiries about the price +and quality of provisions, etc. in the Fair Isle. When I arrived +there in summer '70, my furniture and provisions I had brought +with me from Edinburgh had not arrived, through the gross +misconduct of Mr. Bruce's skipper; so I had no alternative but to +get provisions from his store, the only shop in the island. Tea, +equal to 2s. or 2s. 2d. a pound in Glasgow, which I had tried from +curiosity, was sold to me for 4s.; sugar (East India brown) worth +31/2d. a pound, cost 7d.; soap, the same; coarse biscuit (the only +bread), 4d. a pound. All these articles were, I conceived, about 100 +per cent. above the ordinary selling price, or profits, in other +places. I afterwards bought other articles, but I forget the price, +and could not tell the profits. + +Meal is the great demand of the island, besides tea, tobacco, etc. I +heard great complaints of the price of the meal, but I needed none. +They said the bere-meal cost about 20s. a boll, but they did not +know the precise price till settling day, once a year or two years. +Then they had to pay whatever Mr. Bruce chose to name, after it +was all eaten. He kept off the price from that of their fish; and +there too, they had to take whatever he named. I found from an +Orkney newspaper that bere-meal was selling there at 13s. a boll. +As the meal was bought with their own money, and the price of +their own fish of last year, I suppose a penny letter could order 100 +bolls, shipped at Aberdeen or Kirkwall; the price of carriage to +Lerwick would be, say 6d. a boll; then conveyed to Fair Isle in Mr. +Bruce's own vessel, with a reasonable freight would clear about +one thousand per cent. on the actual outlay or he would pocket £30 +for a penny letter. + +The people 'were restricted (as you say you have been informed) to +buy from any one else, both by word and writing, and by the fact +that they had nothing to pay it with till July last from 1869-1871. +Mr. Bruce tried to establish a complete monopoly, but he did not +altogether succeed. Others came and undersold him vastly, +though even they were VERY DEAR, and would not sell above +high- water mark. Every time any one came to the island to sell +tea, sugar, coffee, soap, etc., it was reported that any one buying +from such would get their warning to leave the island--the grand +and only punishment known there. Of course, they all bought +more or less secretly or openly and none were turned away I was +at first astounded to find they did not believe a word I said, and I +soon learned not to believe a word they said. I don't mean all +were liars alike, but only a stranger can't tell whom to trust. + +One seller came three times to the island that summer(1870) +and took away a good deal of money and goods each time. I +bought bread, sugar, fowls, etc, for Mr Bruce's laws did not apply +to me Good sugar 6d. a pound, would have cost 5d. and 51/2d. +in Glasgow. Soap equally cheap, I was told. Bread 2d. above +Kirkwall price, <e.g.> a 4 lb. loaf 8d. instead of 6d. at Kirkwall. +This man and his boat's crew of two or three men remained six +days on one occasion in good weather selling and collecting +accounts, and took away cattle, etc. It was in regard to him that +the notice was stuck up in the store window <signed> by Mr +Bruce that he advised his tenants not to deal with strangers, nor to +receive them into their houses. + +As to the fish, the people complained that they got 9d. a cwt. less +than those at Sumburgh for the same fish; their prices varying +from 2s. 6d. to 3s., about 25 per cent. below the same article +twenty-four miles distant, so that £75 would pay as much fish +there as £100 at Sumburgh. If the Sumburgh fishermen complain +you may guess what the islanders will do if they dare speak out. I +am told the Unst fishermen have got this year 8s. a cwt. for cod +and ling -- the cod-fish of Fair Isle are bought at half-price. When I +was there for my furniture in July last I asked for curiosity, what +they got for their fish as Mr. Bruce was there settling. They said +2s. 9d. and 3s. that would be 5s 6d. and 6s. for cod. Now 6s. is to +8s. as £75 is to £100. If the fish are not paid till a year or two after +they are delivered, the only capital required is the outlay for salt; +and I should think £20 of salt should serve £200 of clear profit on +the fish -- equal to 1000 per cent. on the outlay as + +You may think their plots of ground are let cheap with a view to +profit on the fish. The reverse is the fact. The price of land there +is nearly double that of the lots I have priced in Sutherlandshire +and the rest of Shetland The land is the source of the people's +<loudest> and <bitterest complaints>. They say Mr. Bruce has +doubled the rents since he got the island, four or five years ago and +the tacksmen had overtaxed them before he got it. Many have left +the island since then, on the plea of oppression voluntarily +submitting to the only punishment they have to fear. + ......................................... +I received letters in October dated July, and none after till I came +for them in March, although the people were fishing every month +in the year, and we could speak the mail steamer going north twice +in three trips. Going south, she is generally under night or very +early in the morning. I have gone to the mail and spoken to the +captain in October, November and December, and my letters and +papers on board were carried fifty miles past me, to be obtained +when anybody coming to the island chose to ask them; and thus I +might obtain them in a few months, OR NEVER. And so of +letters <leaving> the island. Now, a few pounds could establish a +post-office in the island and the mail steamer could deliver a bag +forty or fifty times in the year when going north; indeed always, +unless she passed in a fog, or in the dark, or in a storm from a +south or south-east wind. In a north wind, the harbour is perfectly +calm, and the island shelters the steamer. + + +IV.--EXTRACT FROM LETTER BY WM. MOUAT, ESQ. OF +GARTH, ADVOCATE, TO MACCULLOCH, AUTHOR OF 'THE +HIGHLANDS AND WESTERN ISLANDS OF SCOTLAND' +(DISCOVERED AMONGST THE GARTH PAPERS IN MARCH +1872). + +<2d November> 1820. +. . . With regard to the points in question, I think, if I can make +myself understood, I should be able to satisfy you; but our mode +of holding, or rather of describing property, is so different from +anything practised either in England or Scotland, that I suspect it +will be necessary to take a very elementary view before I can be +sure of succeeding. + +In the first place, then, there are no <Manorial rights>, or anything +analogous to them, either in the person of Lord Dundas or of any +other person. The reason why you have heard his Lordship +spoken of as so universal a proprietor in the commons is, that +although his is only a third or fourth rate property, it is so much +scattered, that there are few commons (scattales or scattholes) in +the country in which he has not something to say, <simply, +however, as a proprietor>. The Crown is the universal superior, +and all the land is freehold. It is true that Lord Dundas lately +possessed over all the country, and does still possess over +some few estates, the right to the Crown rents. These were the +feu-duties exigible from the feued lands, and a payment called +scatt, exigible both from Udal and feued land; but this was simply +a right to collect the payments, and did not infer any right of +superiority. Etymologically, scatt certainly seems to have some +connection with <scattholds>, but practically it has none +whatever, so far as the receiver is concerned, and is as to him +simply a feu-duty. The opinion of the country, however, is so far in +favour of the etymological view, that it is generally conceived that +all towns (<i.e.> townships) paying scatt have right to a share of +the commons, while those who do not have none; but this point +has never been settled by any judicial authority. + +In the second place, you are mistaken in supposing that tenants +pay no rent for the scattholds. Every township its own scatthold, +the boundaries of which are, or ought to be, known. I say 'ought +to be,' because I believe in many instances a knowledge of the +marches has been lost. Any scatthold, therefore, is common +merely as respects the township to which it belongs; and it is the +exclusive property of the owners of that township, or, more strictly +speaking, forms a part of the township itself. Each township +consists of a certain number of merks. The following history of +the origin of this term (which is our universal denomination of +land, both in letting it to tenants and in conveying it from one +proprietor to another) may help to explain its nature. It seems, +then, to have arisen in the times when rents were fixed by public +authority, each township being valued, <in cumulo>, at so many +merks of money as it was considered worth. The share of each +landlord was then naturally said to consist of so many merks, +because the rent was in fact his whole interest, the farmer being, +according to the old Danish law, the real proprietor, and the +landlord only a sort of lord of the manor. The term, by a very +easy change, came, with the changes of laws, to apply to that +portion of land which had originally paid a money merk of rent, +but did not, and does not to this day, denote any particular spot or +measurement, but merely such proportion of the whole township +as had been equivalent to one money merk of rent, when the whole +was valued at a given number. This hypothesis, for I acknowledge +it is little more, at least gives a result corresponding precisely to +our present idea of a merk of land, and also accounts for the great +variety of contents which we find in merk, since, to be equal in +value, they must have been of very different extent in different +situations. The number of merks in each town is known from old +records and traditions, or, practically, from the sum of all the +proprietors. Thus, if in the town of M. 40 merks belong to A., 30 +to B., and 20 to C., then is M. a town of 40 + 30 + 20 = 90 merks. +It is of no consequence here whether M. contains five acres or five +hundred, 40-90ths of the whole belong to A., and 30-90ths to B., +etc. And, on the other hand, the number of merks might be +double, triple, or in any other proportion, without at all altering +the extent or state of the property, except that the interest of each +proprietor would be expressed by proportionally higher figures. +A. would have 80-180ths, B. 60-180ths, and so forth. In these +circumstances, if a landlord lets to a tenant any given number of +merks, it is just giving him a fractional share, of which the total +number of merks in the town is the denominators, and the number +let the numerator. A tenant taking ten merks in the above +supposed town of M., would just have right to 10-90ths of the +corn land, 10-90ths of the meadow land, 10-90ths of the stinted +pasture within the dyke, and 10-90ths of the unstinted pasture, or +'scatthold,' without the dyke. But the rent is charged at so much +per merk -- <Ergo>, the tenant does pay rent for the scatthold, +Q.E.D.!! + +I do not, however, allege that the rent thus paid is anything like +what it might easily be under a better system. + +That the rents were anciently fixed by public authority, is, I +believe, an established fact, and there is reason to believe that +the practice continued long after the transference of this country +from Norway to Scotland, when, of course, it ceased to be law. +This practice, and the long period for which both rents and +improvements were stationary, had produced so strong an +impression upon our habits of thinking on this subject, that, at +so late a period as to be distinctly within my own recollection, +landlords, in general, had no clear practical confidence in their +own right to demand a direct rise of rent, and, under this feeling, +resorted, in many instances, to indirect methods of doing that +which they had a right to have done openly and avowedly. +The sight of this sort of thing, without an understanding of the +circumstances and habits of thinking which lie to it, gave +superficial observers an idea that much oppression and injustice +was exercised towards the tenantry, and produced much of that +obloquy (some of which may possibly have fallen in your way) +which has been thrown upon the Shetland landholders. + +This idea has now, however, completely vanished, and many +Shetland proprietors have let their lands at a raised money rent, +without reserving any further claim upon the tenants: and if all +have not done so, it arises from other causes, and not from any +feeling of the kind described above, or from any inclination to +take undue advantages. + +As to your question why the scattholds remain undivided, the +general backwardness of improvement, and want of agricultural +skill and capital, are the immediate causes. The present tenantry +are so ignorant of the means of turning these commons to any +proper account, that the fee-simple of most of them would, under +the present management, hardly pay a common land-measurer for +surveying them, far less could they bear any litigation. There are, +however, many considerable scattholds at present the exclusive +property of one or a few persons. Improved management has +begun, and will probably take root, first in such situations, and +afterwards, when its advantages are seen, and a sufficient number +of people trained to practise it has arisen, it will spread over those +lands where the difficulty and expense of divisions have to be +previously incurred. Your alternative of levying a rent of so much +per head of beasts pasturing, would not answer, because, as I have +already endeavoured to explain, the tenants, in paying a rent per +merk, pay for their scattholds as well as for their other ]and. +Your other suggestion, however, numerically limiting the stock +according to the rent, or, which is the same thing, according to the +moths, would be highly beneficial both to tenants and landlords. If +you ask, Why then is it not carried into effect? I can only answer +that we have not long turned our attention the way of agricultural +improvement, and have only begun to discover that what is +difficult is not always impossible. + +V. -- EXCERPT FROM REPORT OF MR. PETERKIN, GENERAL INSPECTOR OF BOARD +SUPERVISION OF THE POOR IN SCOTLAND. +<Shop Dealings with Paupers>.--The Board are aware of the +constantly recurring reference I have had to make for many +years to the tendency of Inspectors and members of Parochial +Boards, here and there, over the whole of Scotland, to traffic +with paupers, by furnishing them with goods of all kinds, and +with lodgings, and intercepting the parochial allowances in +payment thereof. On this subject there has, since the institution +of the Board, been a constant struggle; for here and there, all +over Scotland, in the large towns as well as in rural and remote +parishes, the practice prevailed, and was occasionally discovered-- +generally by accident. The Board long ago expressed decided +opinions on the impropriety of the practice. Now in Shetland, it +so happens that almost the only persons who are practically the +administrators of the Poor Law are more or less directly or +indirectly interested in the local trade -- in the fish-curing, or in +the shops, or in the stores of one kind or another. In one parish +the Poor Law is practically administered by these merchants and +fish-curers, and to their shops the paupers must of necessity go to +make their purchases. In two other parishes nearly the same thing +occurs. There is probably no parish in Shetland, where, to a +greater or less extent, this is not the case; and to find there persons +capable of transacting business, and of acting as members of +Boards or Inspectors of Poor, who are not, in some way or other, +directly or indirectly interested in a shop, or connected with a +shopkeeper, is perhaps impossible. Where the line is to be drawn, +when all interest in the business of the shop will cease, is beyond +my powers of discovery. Even among the more recent +appointments of Inspectors we have one who is personally +unobjectionable, having no shop; but his mother keeps "<the +shop>" of the district. Another was a shopkeeper; and on his +appointment as Inspector he gave up his shop and goods, and with +them, of course, it was to be supposed all interest in the business; +but he made them all over to his niece, <a girl fifteen>! And the +third, having ceased to keep a shop, acts as agent for his brother and +his partners, who have shops and stores and curing stations; but at +present he sells nothing. These three men seem to me in +themselves to be really as competent as can be for their duties, and +are, I believe, as good and efficient men as can be found in their +respective parishes. In another parish we have as an Inspector the +paid shopman or servant of the firm who has "<the store>." In +another parish the chairman of the Board has "<the shop>," and +his brother has "<the other shop>." In short, everything in +Shetland gravitates towards "<the shop>." To it the child takes a +dozen eggs in a morning, and obtains for the family breakfast what +is called a "<corn o' tea>;" to it the young woman takes her +knitted hosiery, and in exchange will receive either tea or some +article or material of dress; to it the pauper takes the pass-book, or +pay-ticket of the parish, and on that guarantee will get the "<corn +o' tea>," or the "<corn o meal>;' and he who supplies the goods +over the counter is almost certain to be a member of the Board, or +a near relative of one who is, or of the Inspector, -- he may even be +the chairman of the Board himself. + +'I do not pretend to be able to offer any suggestions to remedy such +a state of matters, but too rely state the facts as they have come +under my observation. I have, however, no doubt that the poors' +rates in Shetland are, to a great extent, but the natural results of +such parochial arrangements as I have referred to.' + +VI.--NOTES OF PRICES PAID BY JAMES METHUEN, LEITH, FOR (CURED) SALT +FISH, FREE ON BOARD AT LERWICK, FROM 1853 TO 1871. + +Year Ling Cod Tusk Saith +1853 £20, 10s. £18 £20. 10s. £10. 10s. +1854-5 .... .... .... .... +1856 .... £15 .... £11, 10s. to £12 +1857 £21 to £22 £18 to £17 £19, 5s. £12, 10s. +1858 £21, 10s. £16, 10s. .... £12 +1859 £20 to £22 £15, 10s. .... £10 to £11 +1860 £19 to £21 £17. 15s £20 £13 +1861 £18 to £17, 10s. £17, 10s. £18 £12 to £13 +1862 £17 to £18 £15 to £16 £17 £8, 10s. +1863 £18 to £20, 10s. £18 £20 £9 +1864 £18 to £21 £17 to £19 £21, 5s. £12 +1865 £23 to £24 £21 to £22 £23 £15 +1866 £23 to £25, 10s. £19 to £23 £24 £13, 10s. +1867 £17 to £18 £16 £17 £7 +1868 £18 to £19 £16 .... .... +1869 £20 to £20, 10s. £17 £18, 10s. £11 +1870 £21, 10s. to £22 £18 £20 .... +1871 £22, 10s. to £24 £20 .... £13, 10s. + +Priced per ton + + +VII.--ABSTRACTS OF SETTLEMENTS PRODUCED BY MR. +GARRIOCK. + +1. ABSTRACT of SETTLEMENT with FAROE FISHERMEN by +GARRIOCK & CO. + +Vessel Earning Paid in Lines, Clothes, + Cash Hooks Meal, etc., + and Stores for Self and + used on Family + Board +'Mizpah' 1870. £585 2 1 £374 13 6 £81 7 11 £129 0 8 +'Mizpah' 1871. £328 19 11 £198 9 7 £63 3 4 £67 7 0 +'Sylvia' 1870. £427 19 2 £239 17 0 £71 7 9 £16 4 5 + +2. ABSTRACT OF SETTLEMENT with CREWS of +FISHERMEN at DALE and WALLS -- Season 1871. + +Name of Crew Gross Earning Lines, Nets, Salt, Meal, and Goods Amount paid in Cash +<6-oared boats> +James Twatt and crew £66 8 6 £16 4 4 £50 4 2 +John Jeromson and +crew 88 16 111/2 18 4 4 70 12 71/2 +Wm. Jameson and crew 74 11 11 36 12 11 37 19 0 +Fraser Henry and crew 100 0 41/2 20 1 61/2 79 18 10 +Thomas Laurenson +and crew 100 2 7 27 14 6 72 8 1 +Jacob Christie and crew 96 6 6 15 2 71/2 81 3 101/2 +36 men Total £526 6 10 £134 0 3 £392 6 7 +<4-oared boats> +Scott Williamson +and crew £21 2 11/2 £9 8 91/2 £11 13 4 +Chas. Williamson +and crew 33 2 11/2 19 16 81/2 13 5 6 +William Smith and +crew 21 17 7 10 2 31/2 11 15 31/2 +Jas. Tait and crew 34 3 41/2 7 19 21/2 26 4 2 +Geo. Georgeson +and crew 16 0 7 .... 16 0 7 +Thomas Moffat and +crew 18 15 41/2 4 14 81/2 14 0 8 +Magnus Thomson +and crew* +Thos. Thomson +and crew* +Mat. Thomson and +crew* 158 11 0 42 18 9 115 12 3 +34 men Total £829 19 1 £229 0 81/2 £600 18 41/2 + + +* 4 boats with 3 men each = 12 men + + + +AVERAGE. + + Earning Goods, etc. Cash +36 men in six-oared +boats, each £14 12 5 £3 14 5 £10 17 11 +34 men in four-oared +boats, each £8 18 7 £2 15 103/4 £6 2 81/4 + + + +Minutes of Evidence +taken before the +Commission on the Truck System +(Shetland) + +Lerwick: Monday, January 1, 1872. +Mr Guthrie, Commissioner. + +<Mr. Guthrie>.-I have come here, as a Commissioner appointed +under the Truck Act of 1870, to inquire into the system of Truck, +and to report upon that and upon the operation of all Acts or +provisions of Acts prohibiting the truck system; and I have power +under the Act, as it says, 'to investigate all offences against such +Acts which have occurred within the period of two years +immediately preceding the passing of this Act (that was, in 1870), +and to make such report on the subject of the truck system, and of +the existing laws in relation thereto, as they (the Commissioners) +shall deem proper and useful'. I wish all that are here, and all that +are interested in the subject of this inquiry, to remember that the +object for which I am sent here is simply to find out the truth, and +the whole truth, about the way in which the system of truck, or, if +it is not properly called the system of truck, the system of paying +wages and the price of productions,-which is said to prevail in +Shetland, operates; and I trust and believe that I shall receive from +all of you every assistance in ascertaining the truth with regard to +that matter. I wish every person in Shetland, and every person +interested in the matter, to bear in mind, first of all, that I come +here with no formed opinion as to the operation of that system, +either on the one side or on the other. I come here to find out the +truth; and I believe that, so far as Shetland is concerned, the +Government which has sent me here is in exactly the same +position, and has not formed any opinion. It is simply anxious to +find out what is the truth about the system which is alleged to +prevail here; and I trust, as I have already said, that I shall receive +every assistance from everybody in prosecuting that inquiry. I +have to thank some gentlemen, to whom I have already made +application for information, for the courteous way in which they +have responded to my application. The interests of some of them +may be supposed to be affected by the inquiry, but I hope that they +and all of you will come forward frankly and tell me what you +know about the matter. It is right, however, to mention, that the +Act of Parliament under which I am sent here, furnishes me with +special and very stringent powers with regard to the obtaining of +information. In particular, I am empowered, among other things, +to examine witnesses upon oath; to compel them to answer such +questions, as may be put to them; to compel the production of +documents; to order the inspection of any real or personal property; +and a summons requiring the attendance of a witness must be +obeyed just in the same way as if it were issued by any of Her +Majesty's superior courts. I hope and trust, however, that it will be +unnecessary to exercise any of these powers. I think the people of +Shetland have sufficient intelligence and good sense to make the +enforcement of these powers quite unnecessary. I rely upon their +good sense and courtesy to allow the truth to be ascertained, +without any difficulty or any resistance or attempt at concealment. +I may mention-although perhaps in this country it is less +necessary-that the Act of Parliament gives me power, when any +person examined as a witness makes a full and true disclosure +touching all matters with respect to which he is examined, to give +him a certificate stating that he has made such a full and true +disclosure; and that certificate has the effect of protecting him +against any civil or criminal procedure which might be taken +against him in consequence of anything that he speaks to. Further, +I have to express a hope that no person who is interested in the +system that is said to prevail here will in any way attempt to +interfere with this inquiry by intimidating any witness who is to be +called before me, or exercising any undue or improper influence +upon him. If any instance of such intimidation or improper +influence takes place, I hope the party on whom it is attempted to +be exercised will at once make the circumstance known to me, +whether that intimidation is exercised by a threat of dismissal from +employment or a refusal of work, or in whatever other way it may +be done. All these things would be a serious violation of the law, +and would be visited with severe punishment. I shall be ready to +receive any information that any person may wish to give on the +subject of the inquiry; and if any one wishes to give evidence or to +suggest any point for inquiry, I have to ask that they will give that +information privately, as the inquiry itself, so far as the taking +down of evidence is concerned, must, by the terms of the Act, be +held in public. + + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872. CATHERINE WINWICK, examined + +1. You live in Lerwick?-Yes. + +2. You are in the habit of knitting for Mr. Linklater?-Yes. + +3. For any one else?-No. + +4. Do you supply your own wool?-No. + +5. Where do you get it?-I knit Mr. Linklater's own worsted. + +6. Do you get a supply of it at his shop?-Yes. + +[Page 2] + +7. Do you pay for it when you get it?-No; he pays me for the +knitting. + +8. Are you paid in money?-Some in money and some in goods. + +9. What is your system of dealing? When you go with anything +you have knitted to Mr. Linklater's shop, do you put a price upon +it?-No; he gives what he thinks right. + +10. He puts the price upon it?-Yes. + +11. Does he pay you that price usually in money?-Part in money +and part in goods. He does not pay all in money. + +12. Do you keep a pass-book with him?-No. + +13. Do you get all the money you want?-I always get what money +I ask for; but I never ask for all in money. I have asked for a few +shillings in money, and I have always got it. + +14. Why did you not ask for the whole in money?-Because he +was not in the habit of giving all money for his knitting. + +15. Do you mean that you knew if you had asked for it you would +not have got it?-I don't think I would have got it all in money; I +never asked him for it all, but I always got what I asked for. If I +asked him for a few shillings of money, he always gave it to me. + +16. Is a settlement always made when you bring your work +back?-Sometimes it is, and sometimes not perhaps sometimes I +have something in his hands to get, and perhaps sometimes I am +due him a little. + +17. Due him for what?-For anything. Perhaps he might give me +something sometimes when I did not have it to get, if I asked him +for it. + +18. Did you ever wish to buy your goods at any other place?-No; +I could not buy my goods at any other place. + +19. Were you always content with what you got?-Yes; I was +always content. + +20. Then if you wanted money, it would be for some other purpose, +such as paying rent?-Yes. + +21. Or for provisions?-Yes. + +22. And you always got what you wanted for these purposes?- +Yes. When I asked for a few shillings of money for knitting, I +always got it. + +23. Do you live by yourself?-Yes. + +24. And not in family with any others?-No. + +25. Do you make all your living by knitting?-Yes. + +26. You have no other means of getting money to pay your rent?- +No. + +27. You pay rent for a room?-Yes. + +28. And you have always got enough from the employer to whom +you sell your work to pay your room rent and your food?-Yes. It +had to be enough, for I could not get anything else. + +29. Do you mean by that, that you would have liked to have had +more money to spend upon food?-Yes. + +30. But you could only get goods?-Yes. + +31. How much do you earn by knitting in a week or in a month?-I +suppose perhaps about 10s. in a month. I would knit a shawl in a +month, and the merchant would allow me that sum for knitting it. + +32. Would it take you a month to knit a shawl, working at nothing +else?-Yes. Of course I would not be always at it. People cannot +sit and knit continually; but it would take a month to make it, +working in an ordinary way. + +33. When you take that shawl to the shop, price of say 10s. is put +upon it, how much of that do you got in money, and how much in +goods?-I have knitted a shawl for 10s, and I have got 5s. in +money on it from Mr. Linklater. + +34. Is that the usual proportion of money you get?-No, not +always. Sometimes I don't get so much as that. + +35. Did you ever ask for more?-No; I think never asked for any +more on one shawl. + +36. Supposing you were going with a shawl of that value what +goods would you get? Take the last time you went, for instance: +what did you get?-Cottons, or such things as I would be +requiring. The last time I was there I bought nine yards of cotton +at 81/2d. a yard. + +37. Was that to make a dress with?-No; it was white cotton. + +38. Did you ask for that?-Yes. + +39. Did you want it for any particular purpose?-Yes; I wanted it. + +40. What else did you get?-That is all I remember getting at that +time. + +41. Did you get the rest in money?-Yes. + +42. Have you any reason to complain of the quality of the goods +you get?-No, I have not. + +43. Would you wish to go to any other shop if you got money?-I +have no reason to leave Mr. Linklater, for he has always given me +money as well as I could have got it from any other merchant, I +believe. + +44. What arrangement do you make about the supplying of the +wool?-We make no arrangement. + +45. Then you are supplied with the wool; and the 10s. is the price +not of the shawl, but of your work upon it?-Yes. + +46. Is that the usual way in which the knitting trade is carried on by +the women in Shetland?-Yes. + +47. Do they generally get the wool supplied to them that way?-I +believe they do. At least it is the way with some of them. They +won't want it. + +48. They don't buy the wool themselves?-They are not able to +buy the wool. + +49. Have you worked for other merchants than Mr. Linklater?- +No; only for him. I have knitted a few things for a lady, but I never +knitted to any other merchant than Mr. Linklater. + +50. Then you don't know how the other merchants deal with the +women who knit for them?-No; I cannot say anything about that. + +51. Would you prefer to sell your goods to a private lady, or to a +stranger counting to Shetland, rather than have to take them to a +merchant?-If I could get all money for them, I would prefer that. +52. Supposing there was a merchant here who paid for goods +altogether in money, would you prefer to take your hosiery to +him?-Yes; if I could get all money, I would prefer that. + +53. Is there no such person?-No; there is no such person here as +that. A lady may buy a thing or two at a time, and give money for +them, but that could not be a general thing. + +54. How do you know that you cannot got money from the +merchants? Is it because you have attempted to get it, or simply +because you have a sort of understanding to that effect?-The +merchants don't allow all money for the knitting. + +55. Have they told you that?-Yes. + +56. Who has told you?-Just the whole of them. None of them +pay wholly in money for anything. + +57. But who has told you that? I think you said you had never been +refused?-I never was refused a few shillings on anything by Mr. +Linklater. When I took home work to him and asked him for a few +shillings of money, I always got it. + +58. But you would rather have it all in money?-Yes. + +59. And you cannot get it?-No. + +60. How do you know that?-They won't give it to us. If we buy +worsted ourselves, and knit the work, and take it to them, they +won't give any money at all. + +61. Have you tried that?-Yes. + +62. You have knitted a shawl with your own worsted, and gone to +them to sell it; and they would not allow money on it?-Yes. + +63. Has Mr. Linklater done that?-Yes. + +64. Did he refuse to give you money for that shawl?-Yes. + +65. But he would pay for the shawl in goods?-Yes, if I would sell +it. + +66. When did that happen?-I could not just remember the time; +but it has been often. + +67. You did that yourself?-Yes, I have done that myself; and I +have got shawls from friends to sell, and have gone out with them, +and the merchants would not give money on them. + +68. Is there anything else you want to say?-No. + +[Page 3] + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872, JANET IRVINE, examined. + +69. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes. + +70. Your mother is a widow?-Yes. + +71. Do you support yourself by knitting?-Yes; and partly by +working outside at the fish. + +72. What have you to do with the fish?-I help to cure them in the +fish-curing establishment. + +73. For whom do you knit?-Sometimes for myself, and +sometimes for Miss Mary Hutchison. + +74. Is she a dealer in hosiery?-Yes; she knits shawls herself, and +sends them south. + +75. Is she an agent?-Yes. + +76. For whom?-I think she is agent for Mr. White, in Edinburgh. + +77. Do you sometimes work for others?-No; not very often. I +sometimes work for myself when I have any time. I knit a veil or a +necktie, but in the summer 1 have not much time for that. + +78. Do you knit these things for the purpose of selling them?- +Yes. + +79. Do you sometimes sell to the merchants in Lerwick?-Yes. + +80. To whom?-To any one who is buying anything. + +81. Do you generally get money for your shawls?-No; I got +money from Miss Hutchison when I ask for it. + +82. Do you get the price all in money from her?-When I want it +all in money, I get it all in money, and when I want any other thing, +she gives it to me. + +83. Do you generally ask for it all in money from her?-Yes; I +generally ask for it in money, because that is the only way we have +to get it. + +84. Does she deal in goods?-No. She generally brings home a +little tea. + +85. Does she only deal in tea?-In nothing else, so far as I know. + +86. Then you sometimes get payment from her in tea?-Yes. +When I ask it, I get it; but when I ask money, I get money. + +87. When you sell to the merchants in Lerwick, do you get +payment in money?-No; I never asked it, because I know they +would not give it to us, as it is not the custom. They do not give it +here. + +88. Do you get part of it in money?-No; I get no money. + +89. You have to take it all in goods?-Yes. + +90. Do you prefer to get it in goods or in money?-I would like to +get money if I could; but I can't get it. + +91. And Miss Hutchison is not always ready to buy, from you?- +No; she does not buy anything but her own. She brings home +worsted, or buys worsted here, and I get it from her to knit. + +92. What you sell to the merchants you knit with your own +worsted?-Yes. + +93. Where do you buy your worsted?-From the shops. + +94. Which shops?-I used to buy from Mr. Brown, but he is not +alive now; and I buy from Mr. Sinclair. + +95. Do you pay ready-money for your worsted when you buy it?- +Yes. + +96. Do you not get worsted from the shops to knit into articles for +the merchants?-No. + +97. You sell to the shops only when Miss Hutchison has not got +work for you?-Yes. It is only when I have it of my own that I sell +to the shops. + +98. Have you asked for money instead of goods at any of the +shops?-No; I never asked for it. + +99. Your sister also works in the same way?-Yes; she knits, but +she does not work outside. She is not here to-day. + +100. When was the last time you took anything of your own +knitting to a shop to sell? Was it long ago?-No; it is not long,- +perhaps about two or three weeks ago. + +101. What was it?-A necktie. + +102. Where did you take it?-I took it to Mr. Sinclair's. I could +not get it sold that night, because he was not in, and the servants +could not take it in his absence. I took it home with me. + +103. What did you do with it?-The woman who dressed it sold it +for me at Mr. Sinclair's. She generally dresses things, and +sometimes sells them for me. + +104. What is dressing?-Getting them sorted for sale. After being +knitted, they are washed and dressed and starched. + +105. Do you give the woman who dresses the articles a +commission to sell them?-Yes; she sells them for me. + +106. Why is that?-Because she is generally in the way of doing it. +She can do it better than I can. + +107. Do you mean that she can make a better bargain?-She +dresses goods for the merchants, and sometimes she sells them too. + She sold that article for me. + +108. Who is the woman?-Mrs. William Arcus; she lives at the +Docks. + +109. What was the price put upon that necktie which she sold?- +Eighteenpence. + +110. What did you get for it?-I just got anything I required. + +111. What did you require at that time?-I got a little tea, and the +rest in cotton. + +112. Did you want the tea?-Yes. + +113. Have you sometimes asked the merchants for goods which +they would not give you?-No. + +114. When you go to a merchant to sell a shawl, can you get any +kind of goods you want?-I don't sell any shawls, because I don't +have any of my own. I have not had any of my own for a long +time. + +115. But when you go to sell any of the goods you have knitted, +can you get anything you want?-I cannot get money, but I can get +anything else, except worsted. They won't give it. + +116. Will they not give you worsted for your knitted goods?-No. +They won't give it for the hosiery. They want money for the +worsted. + +117. Do they give any reason for that?-I don't know. They say it +is a money article. + +118. Does that mean ready-money?-Yes. + +119. It is cotton or tea you generally get?-Yes; or any other small +thing except money. We can get anything except it. + +120. You work at other things; so that I suppose you have money +from your wages in the fish-curing establishment for the purpose +of paying your rent, and things that you must pay in money?-Yes. + +121. You get your wages there in money?-Yes; I get money for +that. + +122. You work for Mr. Leask?-Yes. + +123. He does not keep a store of any kind?-No; he has no store, +but he keeps a shop. + +124. Have you to take goods for your wages there?-No; I can +either get money or goods, whichever I want. + +125. But what do you do in point of fact? Do you take money or +do you take goods from Mr. Leask's shop?-I take money. + +126. Always?-Not always. I take other things too, because they +keep everything there that is required. + +127. You have no complaint to make about that?-No. + +128. You are quite content to go to Mr. Leask's shop for what you +want?-Yes. + +129. When you buy things there, you pay your money across the +counter?-Yes. + +130. You have got that money from the pay-clerk previously?- +Yes. + +131. Where is that money paid to you?-In the shop. + +132. In which shop?-In Mr. Leask's shop. We get it in the office, +and we pay it in the shop. He has two shops there. + +133. Is the office at the Docks?-No; it is in the town. + +134. Are you expected to go to Mr. Leask's shop when you get +your wages?-No; we can go anywhere we like. + +135. How long in the year do you work for Mr. Leask?- +Sometimes, when the vessels get fish early, we begin soon. We +begin in the spring. + +136. Will you work there for six months?-Some [Page 4] times +longer. We sometimes begin in spring, and work until after +Martinmas. + +137. During all that time you won't do much knitting?-No. + +138. But you get your wages every week?-Yes. + +139. How much do you get?-1s. a day. + +140. And that is paid weekly on Saturdays at the office?-Yes. + +141. Do you take that money home?-Yes; what I don't pay away. + +142. You perhaps want something on the Saturday, and go into the +shop for it?-Yes; what I want I go into the shop for. + +143. How much of it do you generally take home after making your +purchases?-I cannot say. + +144. As a general thing, do you spend the half of it in the shop?- +Yes; I spend the half of it. + +145. Every week?-No; sometimes it is more, and sometimes less. + +146. Have you ever been told that you ought to go to the shop?- +No. + +147. Or that you are expected to go there?-No. + +148. Would you still be employed there in the same way although +you went and bought your goods elsewhere?-They don't bid any +of their people buy out of the shop. They just please themselves. +Mr. Leask just gives the money, and he does not care where you +buy from. + + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872, Mrs. CHRISTINA WILLIAMSON, +examined. + +149. You are a widow, and live in the Widows' Asylum in +Lerwick?-Yes. + +150. Are you in the habit of knitting goods for sale?-Yes. + +151. Do you knit for any particular merchant?-No; I knit for +myself. + +152. Do you buy your own wool?-Yes; I generally get wool, and +get a woman to spin it for me. + +153. Who is that woman?-Mrs. Irvine, Burn's Close. + +154. Is that the mother of the last witness?-Yes. + +155. Do you buy the wool from a farmer?-Yes. + +156. And then you knit it for yourself, and take the shawls and sell +them?-Yes. + +157. Do you do that upon an order, or just upon chance?-Just +upon chance. + +158. Who do you generally sell to?-I have some unsold just now. +The last one is unsold. + +159. How long have you had it?-I have had that one lying for a +twelvemonth. + +160. Why don't you sell it?-Because I can't get money for it. + +161. Who have you asked to buy it?-I have asked none lately. + +162. Who have you asked at all?-I have asked no one in the town. + +163. Why do you know you would not get money?-Because it is +not the custom to give it, and therefore did not ask it. + +164. Have you ever asked money for your shawls?-Yes; often. + +165. From whom have you asked money?-I have asked it from +the whole of the merchants in the town, but they are not used to +giving money. + +166. Who are the merchants in the town?-Mr. Sinclair and Mr. +Tulloch, and Mr. Laurenson. + +167. Are these all you remember?-Yes. + +168. Have you sold any shawls to any of these gentlemen lately?- +Yes; I sold one to Mr. Laurenson about three months ago. + +169. What was the price put upon it?-30s. + +170. Was that what you call fine knitting?-Yes. + +171. How were you paid for it?-I got goods for it. + +172. Did you get no money at all?-No. + +173. Did you ask to get some of it in money?-No; I did not ask +that. + +174. Did you want to get the goods?-Yes; because the goods +suited. + +175. What goods did you get?-I got bread. + +176. Does Mr. Laurenson sell bread in his shop?-Yes. + +177. Was there an account run for that?-Yes. + +178. What else did you?-Just all kinds of things I was using. + +179. Was it all provisions that you got?-No; there was light and +plenty of things. + +180. Any clothes?-No clothes. + +181. Was there any account due before you sold that shawl?-No. + +182. Did you get all these goods away with you at the time?-No; I +just ran an account for them. + +183. Have you got a pass-book?-I have got one, but I don't have +it with me. + +184. Was that pass-book going on with Laurenson before you sold +him the shawl?-No; it just commenced when I sold the shawl. + +185. Does that account still continue?-Yes. + +186. Do you remember how much it comes to now?-No; I don't +remember exactly. + +187. Do you live in the Widows' Asylum?-Yes. + +188. Are you not provided for there?-No. + +189. You have to get your own food?-Yes. + +190. You got what you wanted on that occasion from Mr. +Laurenson?-Yes. + +191. Have you sold anything to him since then?-No. + +192. Have you sold anything to any one else?-No. + +193. Did you not knit a shawl for' Mr. Tulloch about a month +ago?-Yes. + +194. You did not sell it to him?-No; I did not sell it. +195. Did he supply the wool in that case?-Yes. + +196. Was that because you had not wool of your own?-Yes. + +197. What did he charge for the wool?-He just gave me £1 for +knitting the shawl. + +198. He supplied the wool, and agreed to pay you for knitting the +shawl?-Yes. + +199. Were you paid that £1?-Yes. + +200. In money?-No. + +201. Did you ask for money?-No. + +202. Are you sure you did not ask for it in money?-Yes; I am sure +of that. + +203. Did you get any part of it in money?-No. + +204. What did you get?-Just any clothes that I was needing. + +205. When you went into the shop with the shawl, what passed +between you?-I said, 'Here is your shawl Mr. Tulloch.' He asked +me what I was wanting. + +206. Did you say you wanted money?-No. + +207. What did you say?-That I was wanting some goods. + +208. Did you mention the goods you wanted?-Yes. + +209. What were they?-I believe I took 6 yards of white cotton at +6d. a yard; I also took 41/4 yards of cloth at 4s. 2d. a yard, with +which to make waterproof clothing. I got some small things with +the balance but I don't remember what they were. + +210. But the shawl was to be £1; the cotton came to 3s., and the +waterproof cloth to 17s. 81/2d., so that you were rather in Mr. +Tulloch's debt: was that left standing till the next time?-Yes. + +211. Then you are to knit him something more?-Yes. + +212. You have another order just now?-Yes. + +213. Are you working at it?-I have not begun to it just yet. + +214. Have you anything else to sell just now?-Yes. + +215. Is it something you have knitted with your own wool?-Yes; +but I have sent it south. + +216. Is that because you expect to get money there?-Yes; I have +sent it to an old neighbour woman of mine who is now in Thurso. + +217. Is she a person who makes a practice of dealing in such +things?-No; she is just an acquaintance of mine. + +218. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No. + +[Page 5] + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872, ELIZABETH ROBERTSON, examined. + +219. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes. + +220. Do you live alone?-I live with my aged stepmother. + +221. Who do you work for?-For the last six years I have knitted +for myself, but before that I used to knit for the merchants in +general. I knitted for the late Mr. Laurenson, and Mr. G. Harrison, +and Mr. Tulloch, and Mr. Linklater,-in short, for almost all the +merchants. + +222. But that was six years ago?-Yes. + +223. When you knitted for the merchants, was the wool supplied to +you by them?-Yes. + +224. Did you pay for it when you got it out, or when you were paid +for your work upon it?-I was just paid for my work. + +225. How much would you be able to make in a week at that sort +of work?-I could not exactly say how much. I was in delicate +health; but in some weeks I might have earned 1s. 6d. a day, and in +some weeks perhaps less. + +226. Was that the only thing you were working at?-Yes. The +only sort of knitting I had was veils and shawls. + +227. But was knitting the only thing you were employed at that +time?-That was the only thing I was ever employed at in my life. + +228. Then, on an average, you earned from 5s. to 6s. a week?- +Yes; or from 4s. to 5s. + +229. How often were you paid?-Just when I asked for any sort of +goods that were in the shop. + +230. Would you go once a week or once a fortnight to the shop for +payment?-Yes; perhaps I would. I just went as I was done with +the work which they required. + +231. Did you get a book?-No. I never kept a book. + +232. How did you know how much was due to you?-I just +depended on the truth of the gentlemen's statements when they +added up my accounts. + +233. They kept an account in a book?-Yes. + +234. Was that the same with all the dealers?-Yes; all that I dealt +with before the last six years. + +235. Did these merchants supply you with all kinds of goods?- +Only with soft goods, and tea and sugar. + +236. What did you do for your provisions, such as meal and +bread?-I had often to buy such things as I could get, and sell them +again at half the price to anybody in the row who would take them +from me. + +237. Were these the goods you got from the merchants?-Yes. + +238. Could you not get anything from them you wanted, except +what you have mentioned?-Sometimes I would get a sixpence +and sometimes a shilling, but just occasionally. + +239. Was that given you as a favour?-Yes, and because they +knew I really needed it. It was a mere favour. + +240. Were you supporting your stepmother at that time?-No; not +at that time. I had only myself to support. + +241. But you had no other means of support than your knitting?- +No other means at all. + +242. Did you ask for money at that time?-Yes; I always asked for +money, because I required it so much. + +243. Was it generally on a Saturday that you were with?-I did not +make any particular settlement; it was just any time that I went. + +244. When you got a settlement and took home some of these soft +goods, did you go to your neighbours, or to the baker's or +provision dealer's shop, and ask for what you wanted in the way of +food?-No; but any neighbours that knew me would take from me +some of the goods I had, and perhaps give them to a country friend +of theirs, and get the money for them. + +245. During the last six years you have got into the way of knitting +with your own wool?-Yes. + +246. Where do you buy your wool, or how do you get it?-There is +a lady in the town-a dressmaker and milliner-who deals very +largely in hosiery. + +247. What is her name?-Miss Robertson. She takes goods from +me on lines which I get for my shawls and she gives me wool and +cash to favour me, because she knows I have no other way of +getting money. + +248. What do you mean by taking goods on lines-When I sell a +shawl to any hosiery merchant in the town, I get any sort of goods +that are in the shop, except wool to knit with; but if I don't want +the goods at the time, then the gentleman will give me a line to the +amount I have to get. + +249. Is that an I O U?-That used to be on them. I think there are +other two letters now; but they mean all the same thing. + +250. Have you any of these lines?-I have one home. I shall bring +it. If I go back to the shop with the line, or send anybody back +with it, the merchant's servants will serve the party who brings it +with the amount. + +251. They will give you full value for it?-Yes, to the full value of +the lines. + +252. Then Miss Robertson takes these I O U's from you, and gives +you worsted for them?-Yes. + +253. That worsted you knit into shawls, and these shawls you sell +to the merchants, getting from them I O U's?-Yes. + +254. Are you any better off under this system than you were +before?-Yes. She brings home the wools, and shows me the +invoice for them, and I get the wools at what she pays for them. +That is much cheaper than I can purchase them for in Lerwick. + +255. But you did not buy the wool under the old way of working: +you got the wool supplied to you, and were paid for your work?- +Yes. + +256. Do you think you make more money under the present +system?-Yes. + +257. When you get these I O U's, you spend only part of them in +purchasing worsted?-I get no worsted on them except what I get +from Miss Robertson. + +258. But you spend only part of them in paying Miss Robertson for +worsted?-Yes; and I get part money from her for them, because +they serve her just the same as money would do, in getting articles +from the merchants. She favours me in that way, and enables me +to support my stepmother and myself, and pay rent and taxation. + +259. Do you hand all your I O U's to Miss Robertson?-No; only +what I can spare. + +260. You sometimes take one of them yourself to the merchant +from whom you got it, and you get goods from him for it?-Yes. + +261. You have more money passing through your hands now than +you had formerly?-Yes. I am able now to pay my rent. + +262. How did you pay your rent formerly?-I did not require it +then so much. My father was alive then. + +263. But you have now to pay rent?-Yes; and to support my +stepmother partly. + +264. Have you within the last six years asked for money instead of +these lines?-Yes; I have asked almost daily for money, and I get a +little. + +265. When did you ask last for money?-On Saturday. + +266. Who did you ask?-Mr. Sinclair. + +267. What did he say?-He gave me what I asked. + +268. How much was that?-I just asked 1s. + +269. Did you present one of his lines?-No; I sold him a shawl, +and bought goods, and got a line for the rest, and 1s. of cash. + +270. How much was it altogether?-I got 10s. 6d. for the shawl. + +271. And you got 1s. in cash, and 9s. 6d. in goods or in line?- +Yes. + +272. Did you ask for more money than that?-Not on Saturday. + +273. You got all the money you wanted then?-Yes. + +274. How much did you the time before?-I got 2s. 6d. then. + +275. From whom?-From Mr. Sinclair. + +276. How much were you selling at that time?-15s. worth, I +think. + +277. Was that a fortnight's work?-It was more than that; it would +be about three weeks'. + +[Page 6] + +278. How much money did you ask that time?-I asked for 5s. + +279. What was said?-There was no more money at hand at the +counter at that time, and I got 2s. 6d. + +280. What did you get for the 12s. 6d.?-It was some other little +things I was purchasing. I don't remember what they were. + +281. You did not get a line at that time?-No. + +282. The things you got you really wanted?-Yes. + +283. Suppose you had got 15s. in cash, would you have purchased +your goods there?-Yes. Whatever wearing goods I required, I +would not have purchased them anywhere else. I am quite +satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's goods; but I am always needing +money so much that I have always to ask it. + +284. Does this system of not getting money, or being paid in +goods, make you buy more dress or clothing than you would +otherwise care for?-Yes; I would not need one half the clothes I +get, if I could get money. + +285. That is to say, you would prefer to take the money, and spend +it upon food?-Yes. + +286. Or lay it by?-I should not think much of laying it by, if I +could only get enough to serve the present time. + +287. Have you handed the I O U's to anybody else than Miss +Robertson?-Yes; to lots of people. + +288. For money?-Yes; for money, and for peats or fuel for the +winter. My acquaintances will sometimes take a line from me to +oblige me, because I have no money to give them. + +289. Name one of them?-John Ridling, Burn's Lane, is one of +them. + +290. What would he do with it?-Mrs. Ridling would send it to the +shop and purchase anything she wanted. + +291. Have you known these lines passing through more hands than +one before coming to the shop?-Yes; they would do that. + +292. For instance, if Mrs. Ridling wanted money instead of goods +at the shop, might she pass the line to somebody who would give +her money for it?-No, not that I know of. + +293. You said you had known the lines passing from hand to hand +before going back to the shop?-Yes; sometimes they do that. + +294. That is to say, if you handed a line to a person for money, that +person might sell it again for money to another neighbour?-I do +not know of selling the lines for money; but they might pass from +one person to another in a quiet way. + +295. For goods?-Yes; but not for money, so far as I know. + +296. For fish?-Yes; I have got that on lines. + +297. And bread?-Yes. + +298. And then the party from whom the fish or bread was got +would hand the line to the merchant?-Yes; and get what things +suited them. + +299. Is that it common thing in Lerwick?-No, it is not common; +but it is the case with me. + +300. Have you known any one else who has passed her lines in that +way?-Yes; I have heard of some people who have taken lines +from others. I know that Miss Hutchison has taken lines from +people, and given them money for them. [The witness produced a +line, in the following terms: + + 'C. W. 20.-Cr. Bearer value in goods for thirteen +shillings stg. 13s. + To hat, 3s. R. SINCLAIR & Co. + <pr>. W.T.M. + Lerwick, 5. 12. 71.'] + +I think the letters 'C.W.' are a private mark. It used to be I O U. +The entry, 'To hat, 3s.' is an article I have got since, and there is +therefore a balance of 10s. left on the line. + +301. Have you any particular reason for preferring these lines to +the old way of getting goods?-Yes; sometimes I can get the lines +turned into cash. + +302. You can turn them into money more readily?-Yes; through +Miss Robertson taking them from me. + +303. Are there many such lines given to people at shops?-Yes. + +304. Do most of the people prefer the lines to being paid in +goods?-Sometimes they don't perhaps require the articles at the +time; but when they require them, they go with the lines and get +them. + + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA SIMPSON, examined. + +305. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes. + +306. For whom do you knit?-For myself. + +307. Have you always done so?-I have always done so for a good +many years back. + +308. Where do you purchase your wool?-I purchase it just from +any person, and I spin it for myself. + +309. Do you purchase it from farmers?-Yes. + +310. To whom do you sell your work?-To any the merchants who +will take it. I generally sold it to Mr. Spence when he was in the +town, and to his sister Miss Spence since he went away. + +311. Does she still deal in hosiery?-Yes. + +312. How are you paid?-Generally just by goods. + +313. Do you ask for money?-For the last shawl I sold I asked 2s. +in money. She did not appear very willing to give it; but I got 2s. +on it, and the rest in goods. + +314. What was the value of the shawl?-It was 12s. + +315. Did you not ask for more than 2s. upon it?-No. I did not ask +for any more, because she did not wish to give any more. + +316. You did not ask for the whole price of the shawl in money?- +No. + +317. Did you want it all in money?-I would have liked it all in +money. + +318. Why? What would you have done with the money if you had +had it?-There is many a thing that can be done with money. + +319. But had you any particular reason for wanting the money +instead of the goods? Did you not want the goods?-I could have +been doing at that time without the articles that I got; but I just had +to take them, because I could get no more than 2s. in money on the +shawl. + +320. Is that the usual practice in your dealings with the +merchants?-Not always. Sometimes I have seen me getting a few +shillings more from her; and at other times, if she did not have a +particular order for the articles, she seemed not to be willing to +give any, money at all. + +321. How do you square your accounts when you get goods in that +way? For instance, when you sold that 12s. shawl and got the 2s. +in money, did you also get so many yards of cloth?-Yes; of print. + +322. At how much?-At 7d. per yard. I also got some wincey. + +323. Did that balance the account exactly?-Yes. + +324. You got what made exactly the 10s. worth?-Yes. + +325. Do you generally take just so much cloth as makes up the +value of the shawl?-Yes; generally. + +326. Do you do anything else in the way of working for your living +than by knitting these articles?-Yes. I am married. +327. Then knitting is an extra sort of thing with you?-Yes. + +328. Have you tried any of the other shops in the town to see if +they would give you money for your hosiery?-No, none for a +good while back; but it is not very much that I can do at it, on +account of the house-work. My husband is a shoemaker. + +329. Have you ever got lines for your shawls?-No: I generally +settle up for the whole in goods at the time when I sell the shawls. + +330. Is that all you want to say?-Yes. + +[Page 7] + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872, Mrs. JEMIMA BROWN or TAIT, +examined. + +331. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes. + +332. Do you live with your parents?-Yes. + +333. What is your father?-A shoemaker. + +334. And you knit for your own benefit?-Yes. + +335. For whom do you knit-For Mr. Robert Linklater. + +336. What kind of goods do you knit?-Generally veils. + +337. How much do you make in a week?-Sometimes 3s., and +sometimes not so much, just according as the merchant buys the +articles we make. + +338. Is it his worsted you work?-Yes. + +339. And he pays you so much for the work you put upon it?- +Yes. + +340. What is the value of the work you put upon the veil?-The +last veils I made I got 9d. apiece for them. + +341. Does what you get for them depend upon the size of the +veils?-A good deal. These were the largest veils of all. + +342. Then you will sometimes make four or five of them in a +week?-I just made three of these. They were large ones. + +343. How often do you get settled with for your work?-We have +a pass-book, and the merchant lets it go on until he thinks we have +got goods up to the value we have knitted for. He then makes up +the book. [Produces pass-book in name of Harriet Brown, and +another in name of Amelia Brown.] These are my sisters. One +book served for the whole of us. + +344. Did any one tell you to come here and bring those books?- +No; I just heard what was to be done, and I came of my own +accord. + +345. These books contain the goods which you have purchased +from Mr. Linklater?-Yes. + +346. The last one begins on April 16; 1870, and is added up in +January 1871. The amount at your credit is £5, 5s. 2d.: what does +that mean?-It means, that we have knitted articles to that amount, +and we have also got goods of that value. That was a square +balance. The articles we have knitted bringing out that sum, are +entered in a separate account at the end of the same book. + +347. Is that account the same as appears in Mr. Linklater's +books?-Yes. + +348. It is-April 16, By balance at account, 10s. 111/2d.; May 5, +twenty veils at 1s., £1: are these entered at the time you hand them +back?-Yes; I took twenty veils to Mr. Linklater at that time. + +349. The next entry is-September 6, twenty veils at 1s., £1. I +thought you said you got 9d. for the largest veils you made?-Yes, +for the largest size; but the veils I took in then were finer work, and +the price for them was 1s. each. + +350. Then-December 29, twenty veils at 1s, £1; March 30, two +shawls at 3s. 6d, 7s.; August 19, nine veils at 1s., 9s.; same date, +one shawl, 3s. 6d.-in all, £5, 10s. 51/2d. There is deducted £5, 5s. +2d., leaving a balance in your favour of. 5s. 31/2d.; and then the +account begins again, and is continued down till December 26?- +Yes. + +351. Do you live with your father?-Yes. + +352. Therefore you don't want much money for your own +purposes?-We can never get any money. We would be very glad +to get it if we could. + +353. Have you asked money for your shawls instead of goods?- +Yes. + +354. What answer was made to your request?-That he never gave +any money, and that he could not give it. + +355. Was it not because you had this account, standing against you +that he refused to give you any money?-No. The merchants don't +give money to anybody, unless it be just to favourites. + +356. At August 19 there was 5s. 31/2d. at your credit: did you not +ask for that in money?-No; I did not ask for money then, but I +had asked for it before. + +357. I see that on August 19, when you were settling up, and when +there was 5s. 31/2d. due to you, you took a hat and feathers, some +velvet, and a jacket. You got a great deal more then than was due +to you-Yes; because we had a number of veils knitting for the +merchant at the time, and they all go into the account for the goods +we get. + +358. You say you did not ask for money at that time: did you not +want it?-We always want it; but we never got it when we did ask +for it; and it is no use always asking for it. + +359. When did you ask for it last?-Some time in 1871. + +360. I see there are no goods entered in your book as having been +received by you from Mr. Linklater between January 1871 and +October 1871: had you stopped working for him during that +time?-I was in the south then. + +361. But your sister was here?-Yes; but she was not knitting any. +She was very sickly. + +362. Is there anything else you want to say?-No. + +363. Your sister Amelia is here to make the same statement that +you have now made?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872, BARBARA JOHNSTON, examined. + +364. You have come from the parish of Sandwick?-Yes. + +365. How far is that from Lerwick?-About thirteen miles. + +366. Who do you live with there?-I live with my mother, Mrs. +Johnston. My father is dead. + +367. How many of a family are there of you?-I have two brothers +and a sister in the south and there is a sister at home besides +myself. + +368. You do some work in knitting?-Yes. + +369. For whom do you work?-For Mr. Robert Linklater. + +370. Do you always work for him?-Yes. I work for nobody else. + +371. Have you a pass-book?-No. + +372. How long have you worked for Mr. Linklater?-For some +years. I cannot say the number exactly. + +373. Do you get wool from him, or do you supply it yourself?-I +get the worsted from him, and I am paid by him for my work. + +374. What kind of wages do you get?-I get 10s. for making a big +shawl. + +375. That is not the finest quality of knitting?-No; it is about the +coarsest. + +376. Is it always shawls that you work at?-No; sometimes I make +veils. + +377. When you take your work back to Mr. Linklater, are you paid +for it in money or in goods?-In goods. + +378. Do you sometimes ask for money?-Yes. + +379. What has he said to you when you asked for money?-He +says he never gives it, and that he won't give it to me. I got 2s. +from him today; but that is all I ever got, except, I think, one +sixpence before. I also got the offer of a pass-book to-day. I had +never been offered one before. + +380. Was it after you had seen me this forenoon that you got the +2s. and the offer of the pass-book?-Yes. + +381. When you get your worsted, is there a bargain made between +the merchant and you about the payment you are to receive for the +work?-No. I have just an idea what I think the thing will come +to; and then, when I come back with it, he gives me what he likes. + +382. You don't make any bargain beforehand?-No. + +383. But you might do so if liked?-He won't do it. I have asked +him, but he said he would see the thing when I came back with it. + +384. I suppose, he wants to see the quality of the work before he +pays for it?-Yes. + +[Page 8] + +385. Did you take the pass-book that was offered you +today?-No. + +386. Why?-I had no particular I reason for not taking it. + +387. Did you not want it?-I thought I would not mind it to-day, as +I had never had one before. + +388. Do you remember the last time before to-day when you went +to Mr. Linklater with some of your work?-Yes. + +389. How much was due to you at that time?-I think he was due +me about £1. + +390. That would be for more than one shawl?-Yes; it was for +some veils about four months ago. I have made two shawls for +him since, and some veils. + +391. But the last time you went with your work, how much was +due you?-I think there would be about £1. + +392. Did you ask for money then?-Yes. + +393. Who did you ask it from?-Mr. Linklater. + +394. Was it from Mr. Linklater himself, or one of his people?-It +was either from Mr. Linklater or from Mr. Anderson; I don't +remember which. + +395. What was said to you?-He just said that he would not give +it, as he never gave any. + +396. What goods did you get?-Some stuff for a dress, and some +tea and cotton. + +397. Had you made up your mind before you went there as to what +you wanted to buy?-Yes. + +398. And you got what you wanted?-I had to take what he had. I +had no other chance. + +399. Did you want these goods at that time?-If I had got the +money, I would not have bought them at that time. + +400. What would you have done with the money?-I would have +bought grocery things-things that he did not have. + +401. How do you get provisions when you want them?-My +mother has a farm, and I work with her. + +402. You sometimes work out-of-doors?-Yes. + +403. How do you pay your rent for the farm?-My mother +sometimes sells an animal, and pays the rent with the price. + +404. To whom does she sell these animals?-To any one she can +get to buy them. I don't know any one particularly to whom she +sells them. + +405. Whose ground are you on?-Mr. Bruce of Sand Lodge. + +406. Is there any one in your family who goes to the fishing?-No; +my brothers are all in the south. + +407. Do you sometimes exchange for provisions the goods you get +from Mr. Linklater for your hosiery?-No; I always get provisions +home with me without changing them. + +408. How is that? Have you some money?-Yes. It is by the farm +that we have it. + +409. Have you ever had occasion to exchange your goods for +provisions?-No. + +410. Do you know whether that is a common practice in your +district?-I don't know. + +411. Have you ever received a line instead of goods?-No. + +412. Have you ever asked for a line?-No. + +413. You say that to-day you took a shawl to Mr. Linklater, which +he had ordered, and that you got from him along with goods?- +Yes. + +414. What was the value put upon the shawl?-10s.; but I had had +a shawl in with him before and some veils since I was in the town +last. + +415. Had these been paid for?-No. + +416. Then what was the whole sum due to you day?-I think it +was £1, 2s. 6d. + +417. Why did you not get your money or goods the last time you +went in?-I sent the articles in then; I did not come myself. + +418. So that there was no opportunity of settling with you before +today?-No. + +419. How much money did you ask for to-day?-I asked for 2s., +and I got it. + +420. Did you not want more?-I did not ask more and I don't think +I would have got more if I had asked it. That was the reason why I +did not ask it; because Mr. Linklater does not make it his practice +give money. + +421. Then when you go in any day to the merchant, you just say, +'Here is your shawl,' and you ask how much you are to get for +it?-Yes. + +422. What is his answer?-He just mentions whatever he likes to +give. + +423. But he gives you a fair value for the work, does he?-Yes; +sometimes. + +424. Do you think he puts too low a value on your work?-Yes; I +often think that. + +425. Do you think there is anything very unreasonable in the value +he puts upon it?-Yes; sometimes I do. + +426. How long does it take you to make a 10s. shawl-I would +make one of them in a month if I was not doing much else. + +427. Would it take you so long as a month?-Yes. + +428. When you take in the shawl, you say the merchant puts his +value upon it: do you ask him for a little more than he says, or are +you satisfied with the value he puts on it?-If it is reasonable-like, +I say nothing about it. + +429. He does not hand you the money?-No. + +430. What takes place then?-He asks me what I want in goods. If +I ask for money, he says no. + +431. Does he give any reason for refusing you money?-He says +he never gives it, and he won't give it to me. + +432. Is that the only reason that has ever been assigned to you for +not giving you money?-Yes. There was one of them in the shop +that said that to-day, and Mr. Linklater himself came in and gave +me 2s. + +433. Then you were refused money to-day by the shopman?-Yes. + +434. He wanted you to take the whole amount in goods?-Yes. + +435. He did so, because that was the practice?-Yes; and Mr. +Linklater himself gave the 2s., and he also offered me a pass-book. + +436. Who was the shopman who did that?-I think Robert +Anderson is his name. + +437. Did you say anything to Mr. Linklater when he came in?-I +just asked him for the money. + +438. You applied to him for the money when the shopman had +refused it?-Yes. + +439. And Mr. Linklater gave it to you without any hesitation?- +Yes. + +440. The 2s. was all that you asked?-Yes. I thought I would not +get any money, because I had been denied it before. + +441. Did you take the pass-book that was offered to you?-No; I +did not think of taking it to-day. + +442. Were you thinking of not dealing with Mr. Linklater any +more?-No; I have got another shawl from him to make. + +443. Did you get the worsted for it to-day?-Yes. + +444. Does Mr. Linklater take a note of the quantity of worsted he +gives out to you?-Yes; he weighs it. + +445. He knows how much it will take to make a shawl, and he +weighs the shawl when it is brought back?-Yes. + +446. Have you ever bought worsted for your own knitting?-No; I +could not get it bought, because I was not in the way of earning +money. + +447. Have you tried to buy it?-I could not try without the money. +He would not give worsted for nothing. + +448. And you had no money to pay for it?-No; I could not have +it. + +449. But when you were taking back your work to him, have you +never asked to take part of the value of it in worsted?-I have; and +I have been refused. + +450. When did you do that?-It is long ago now; but I have done +it. + +451. What did he say when he refused you the worsted?-That it +was a money article and he could not give it without the money. + +452. Was it Mr. Linklater or Mr. Anderson who, said so?-I +cannot remember now, it is so long ago. + +453. Has that happened with you more than once?[Page 9]-I only +remember asking it once. I never did it again, when I got a denial +the first time. + +454. Your sister also knits, and many of your acquaintances?- +Yes. I would like to speak on my sister's behalf as well as my +own. She is not here, but she wants to say the same thing that I +have done. + +455. She wants to make the same complaint?-Yes. She is not +well, and is unable to come in. + + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872, ANDREW TULLOCH, examined. + +456. You are a fisherman at Cunningsburgh?-Yes. + +457. Have you got a piece of ground there?-Yes. + +458. You are a tenant of whom?-Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh. + +459. Who do you fish for?-Thomas Tulloch at present. + +460. Is he a relation of yours?-No. + +461. Where is his place?-At Lebidden, close by Sand Lodge. +There are some houses there. + +462. Do you live there?-No; I live at Cunningsburgh. + +463. Is Mr. Thomas Tulloch a tacks-master under Mr. Bruce. + +464. What is he?-He is just a merchant carrying on business +there, and he has stepped into the fishing. He sold goods before he +began to it. + +465. Does he keep a shop at Lebidden?-Yes, for the fishermen; +and to sell to other people as well. + +466. You engage to fish to him: is that for the summer fishing?- +Yes, chiefly; or for the whole season, if we can follow it up. + +467. Do you go to the Faroe fishing for him?-No; only to the ling +fishing, in the six-oared boats. + +468. What have you come here to say?-Chiefly, that we should +like to have our freedom. We have freedom at present; but we are +afraid of young Mr. Bruce taking the tack of the tenants into his +own hands. He got a lease of the tenants from his father last +season. + +469. What did he get a lease of?-Of his father's premises at +Cunningsburgh. + +470. Then he got a lease of the whole lands of Cunningsburgh?- +Yes, from his father. That was his statement the last time we +settled with him. + +471. What did he say then?-He said he was prepared to settle +with the tenants, because he had got a lease from his father of the +lands. + +472. But you say you have your freedom?-Yes, at present; but +we are doubtful if we can keep it, because young Mr. Bruce has +taken the tenants at the place where he is living himself-at +Dunrossness. He took the tenants there some three or four years +ago, and he has built a house; and both we and the merchant are +doubtful that he may take us into his own hand too. We rather +think we might be worse off if we were taken back. + +473. What do you mean by being taken back?-I mean, if the +tenants were taken into his own hands again. + +474. Have you any objection to the arrangement you have just now +with Mr. Thomas Tulloch?-We cannot complain of it, further +than that we don't know the price we are to get until we settle. We +never had any chance of knowing that from any merchant we ever +dealt with. + +475. When do you arrange to go out to fish?-About the beginning +of May. In some years it may be a month or a fortnight earlier, +just as the weather is. + +476. At that time do you make a bargain with Mr. Tulloch about +the fishing, to fish for him, during the whole season?-Yes. We +have so much confidence in him that we do not make any written +agreement; it is all done by word of mouth. + +477. To whom do the boats belong that you go out in?-The boat I +go in is our own. It belongs to the crew. + +478. How many of you are there?-Five men and a boy. + +479. How long have you had your boat?-We have had our present +boat for about seven or eight years. She was a second-hand boat, +about five years old, when we got her. + +480. You bought her yourselves?-Yes. + +481. Is the price all paid up now?-Yes; it was paid a few years +ago. + +482. Then Mr. Tulloch makes his arrangement with you to go to +fish about the 1st of May?-Yes. + +483. What is the bargain? Is it that you are to fish for him during +the whole season?-No; only till Lammas that is, the end of July; +and after that we stick to the herring fishing. + +484. But when you are at the ling fishing you give him all your +fish?-Yes; the whole. Every time we come ashore we deliver +them to his factor. + +485. That is for the purpose of being cured?-Yes. + +486. He takes an account of them as he receives them?-Yes. + +487. And the only complaint you have against Mr. Tulloch is, that +you don't get settled until when?-We get settled generally at +settlement time but we don't know our price until we come to +settle. + +488. When is the settlement made?-We are not quite settled yet +for last year; but when we are called on by our landlord to pay our +rent, Mr. Tulloch has no objection to give us money for that. + +489. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Mr. Bruce; he is the +proprietor. + +490. Then your complaint is, that you don't know the price of your +fish until January?-Yes. + +491. Would you rather contract with Mr. Tulloch to supply all your +fish at so much per cwt.?-Yes. + +492. But you cannot get that bargain made?-Some of the men +seem very reluctant to agree to it. A few of them have said that +they would leave and go to another merchant before they would +have that. + +493. Does Mr. Tulloch keep a store?-Yes; he has a store, and he +supplies all the fishermen. + +494. What does he supply them with?-Just with material. He +also keeps meal; and they take it from him, more or less, as their +families require it. He keeps other things besides, such as lines, +hooks, and tar for the boats. + +495. Are these things which you get from the store marked down +in pass-books of your own, or in the books of the store?-We can +have a book for ourselves if we like. I did not bring mine with me. +496. Does the storekeeper mark the things in your pass-book as +you get them?-Yes. + +497. Are the quantities of fish also marked into that pass-book as +they are delivered?-No; they are entered into another book which +the factor keeps, and we keep the accounts in a book for ourselves. + +498. You mark them down for yourselves in another book?-Yes. + +499. Is that the general practice among the fishermen in your +locality?-It is; and then we compare the quantities with the factor +before we go up to settle. + +500. Then each fisherman has two books-a passbook for his +dealings with the store, and a book of his own in which he marks +down the quantities of fish delivered?-Yes. + +501. When you came to settle, do you generally get a large balance +paid to you in cash?-Every year is not alike. If it has been a bad +fishing season, and if the crops are light, then perhaps the accounts +will not square. But there have been two or three good seasons +lately. + +502. When the accounts do not square, you mean that, you may be +in debt to the fish-merchant?-Yes; £2 or so. + +503. And he allows that to over, and to be paid next year?-Yes. + +504. But you have no serious complaint to make about that +system?-No; we cannot complain about the regulations in +Shetland. + +505. Could you make a better bargain with anybody else?-I don't +think we could-in Shetland. + +[Page 10] + +506. Is that your fault, or the fault of the +fish-merchant?-I think, for my own part, I would stick into any +place where I could get the best bargain. We have been fishing for +some years to some of the merchants who would give 3d. or 6d. +per cwt. more for the fish than we could get in Lerwick, and +therefore we have stuck by them. + +507. Suppose another merchant were at hand at Cunningsburgh, +would you be quite at liberty to sell your fish to him?-Yes. + +508. Is there any such merchant there within reach of you?-There +is another merchant close by, named James Smith. Part of the men +on the beach I belong to fish for him, and part to Thomas Tulloch. + +509. Are there any other stores than Mr. Tulloch's at +Cunningsburgh or in the neighbourhood?-There are some small +shops that we could get small groceries from, but I do not do much +with them. + +510. Suppose you were to agree at the beginning of the season to +sell your fish to another than Mr. Tulloch, would you have any +difficulty in getting credit at his store for your supplies?-He +would not like that very well. + +511. Would you not get your supplies there?-No, not unless the +man who asked them was one he was well acquainted with. + +512. Would you be able to get them anywhere else?-I don't +know. I don't think I would try to get them, unless at the place I +was sending my fish to. + +513. But if you had not the money yourself, would you get +credit for your supplies during the summer from any other +shopkeeper, either in Lerwick or Cunningsburgh?-Yes. All +the fish-merchants we deal with in Lerwick I can get a little credit +from up to the present day. + +514. And in that way you are not bound over to Mr. Tulloch in any +way?-No. We can leave him this season if we have a mind. + +515. You were to say something about the herring fishing: I +thought there was not much herring fishing here?-There will be +nothing at all this season in Shetland. We generally fished to +Messrs. Hay & Co. when we were in it. + +516. Have you any complaint to make about it?-Much the same +as about the ling fishing The don't like to give a stated price. + +517. Where do you deliver the fish when you go to the herring +fishing?-There is a small ghioe* close by our own place at +Cunningsburgh. Hay & Co. send down a cooper there, and they +have a booth for their stores close by. + +518. What is the bargain you make with them about that?-They +generally wish us to go to the fishing, and they will pay us +accordingly. + +519. What do you do about a boat?-We use the same boat as we +have in the ling fishing. + +520. Then your only complaint about the herring fishery is, that +you don't know the price until settling time?-Yes. But there has +been no herring fishery on the island at all this season, to speak of. + +521. Do you require advances of money at all during the season?- +We are often in want of a few shillings. + +522. How do you get that?-The man we are dealing with just now +(Mr. Tulloch) has never said no, so far as what we asked was +reasonable. I got an advance of £2 from him last season to buy a +cow. We were out of milk that season, and he did not refuse me +the money when I asked it. + +523. Do you get advances from Messrs. Hay also when you need +it?-1 don't think they are so very frank about that, and I don't +like to ask it; but they will give us any small thing we need from +their shops. + +* <Gio>-A deep ravine which admits the sea.-<Edmonstone's +Glossary>. + +524. Do they supply you with goods also?-Yes. + +525. Where is their store from which you get the goods?-There is +their shop in town. + +526. Do you come to Lerwick for them?-Yes. + +527. Do you run an account there?-Sometimes we do, and +sometimes not; but we have not much to do with Messrs. Hay on +that footing. + +528. You said that your reason for coming here and offering to +give evidence to-day was, that you were afraid of young Mr. Bruce +taking the fishing into his own hands?-Yes; that is the thing we +find to be most oppressive, if it was coming to be the case. + +529. Is it the general opinion in the country that he has undertaken +to manage the fishings on his father's estates?-He addressed +himself so in the note he gave us. He called himself general +merchant and fish-curer. + +530. Did he give you intimation of that one year at rent time?- +Yes; that was last year. + +531. But he has not yet taken the management of the fishing at +Cunningsburgh?-No. + +532. Has he fishing establishments elsewhere?-He has-at +Dunrossness. He has taken all the tenants there into his own +hands. The property, I daresay, is twice as large as +Cunningsburgh. + +533. Do you know from your own knowledge whether the tenants +there are obliged to fish for him?-Yes; they are fishing to +himself. + +534. Have they no choice but to fish for him?-I don't think it. As +far as my knowledge goes, they have not. + +535. Are you acquainted with any of the fishermen there?-I know +a little about them, from passing them on the road. + +536. Have they ever complained to you about the state of matters +at Dunrossness?-I cannot say much about that, except that they +think they would have been fully better with their freedom. + +537. Have they not got their freedom?-They cannot have their +freedom when they are fishing to him. + +538. But they may fish to him of their own free will?-They +might; but I think he has gripped them so that they cannot have +their freedom. + +539. That, however, is only your own supposition?-I think it is +true. It is so true that both the merchant and us are afraid that he +will grip us too. + + +Lerwick, January 1, 1872, SIMON LAURENSON, examined. + +540. You are a fisherman at Cunningsburgh?-Yes. + +541. Do you fish for Mr. Tulloch?-No; I fish for James Smith. + +542. You have heard the evidence of the previous witness, Andrew +Tulloch?-Yes. + +543. Is the statement you wish to make very much the same as +his?-Very much the same. We want to know, as British subjects, +whether, if we pay our rent annually, we are entitled to our +freedom. + +544. You mean, whether you are to be allowed to fish to any +person you choose?-Yes; to fish to any person, or to work at any +kind of work for which we have a mind. + +545. Have you been told by young Mr. Bruce, or any one else on +his behalf, that you are not to have your freedom?-No. We only +got a hint of it from the fish-merchant. + +546. And your alarm has been excited by what you have heard +from the people at Dunrossness?-Yes. + +547. Do you know what Mr. Bruce's system is with the tenants +under him there?-I cannot say exactly, except that they are not +well satisfied with it. At least I know that some of them are not +satisfied. + +<Adjourned>. + +[Page 11] Lerwick: Tuesday, January 2, 1872. + +LAURENCE MAIL, examined. + +548. You are a fisherman at Scatness, in Dunrossness?-I am. + +549. Are you a tenant of land?-Yes. + +550. Under whom?-Under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh. + +551. How much rent do you pay?-For the present year I pay +between £10 and £11 of rent. + +552. Have you more land this year than usual?-Yes; I have more +than I used to have. + +553. Do you fish in the home fishing?-Yes. + +554. Do you fish in the Faroe fishing?-No; I don't go to it. + +555. How long have you been at Dunrossness?-Ever since I was a +child. + +556. Have you always been in the same house?-Yes; except for +about two and a half years. + +557. What is your age?-I am thirty-eight years old. + +558. You have come here today to make some statement about the +system of fishing?-Yes. + +559. What is the complaint you wish to make?-There is one thing +we complain of: that we are bound to deliver our fish, wet or +green, to the landlord. + +560. That is, you have to deliver the fish as they are caught?-Yes; +of course we have to take out the bowels and cut off the heads: it is +the bodies of the fish we give. We think it would be much better if +we had liberty to dry the fish ourselves, as we used to do formerly. + +561. To whom are you bound to give your fish?-To Mr. Bruce, +our landlord. + +562. Is he a fish-curer or fish-merchant?-Yes. + +563. Is it Mr. Bruce or his son that you are speaking of?-It is +young Mr. Bruce. He is the landlord or tack-master. His father is +alive; but I think young Mr. Bruce has got power from his father to +manage the tenants according to his own pleasure. + +564. Do you pay your rent to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes. + +565. And does he give you a receipt for it in his own name?-We +settle once a year with him for our fishing, and for the store goods +we have got, and rent and everything together. + +566. Do you get an account for the whole?-He generally gives us +a copy of our account. Sometimes, perhaps, he does not do so; but +he will give it if we ask for it. + +567. Have you got a copy of your account for any year with you?- +I have not got one here, but I will send one. + +568. Is that all you have got to say on the subject of your +complaint?-No; I have something more. Of course, as we are +bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, a man, unless he has money of his +own, is shut up to deal at Mr. Bruce's shop. His credit is gone at +every other place, and that binds us to take our goods from his +store; and generally the goods there are sold at the highest value. +Meal, particularly, has for some years been 4s. a boll above what it +was in Lerwick; and very often, when we ask the price of goods at +the time we get them, they do not know the price which they are to +charge us, and we never learn what the price is until we come to +settle. + +569. Is there any other store in the neighbourhood from which you +could purchase at a cheaper rate?-There are some other stores in +the parish that we could purchase from. + +570. Where is the store situated that you are speaking of?-It is +situated not very far from us-perhaps about a mile or more from + Scatness. + +571. Is that the most populous part of Dunrossness parish?-No; +Scatness is at the very land's end, near Sumburgh point. + +572. Are there many fishermen there?-There are good many. +There is a population down that way of nearly 500, most of whom +are fishermen; and out of the whole lot of them there was not a +man who would come here and represent their case except myself. +Every man among them was frightened he would get his warning +if he came forward. + +573. How do you know that?-They said so themselves. + +574. Was there any meeting on the subject?-Yes; there was a +meeting held last Friday night. + +575. What were the names of the men who said they were afraid to +come?-There was one Sinclair Cheyne: he said that perhaps they +might get their warning; and I think Robert Malcolmson also +signified something of the same kind. However, I know it was the +general feeling among the whole lot of them. + +576. Was there any particular ground stated for that +apprehension?-I don't know. Of course every one suspected that +if the landlord heard that they were coming forward with any case +against him, he would warn them out. That was the general +suspicion. + +577. Has the landlord or his factor ever told you that a man not +dealing at the store, or refusing to deliver his fish to him (the +landlord), would be turned out of his farm?-The landlord never +told me exactly that if I did not fish for him I would be turned out, +but I have seen an evidence of that in the case of a neighbour. + +578. What was the name of that neighbour?-James Harper. His +son dried a few hundredweight of fish for himself and gave them +to Mr. Bruce, and on that account his father was warned. + +579. Do you say that the father was warned although the son gave +the fish to Mr. Bruce?-Yes, he gave then to him dried; and +because he did not give them to him wet, his father was warned. + +580. When was that?-I think it was seven or eight years ago; and, +if I am not mistaken, the father had to pay 30s. so that he might sit +still. + +581. But he did sit still?-Yes; he is there yet. + +582. Do you know anything about the case of a James Brown?- +Yes; it was reported, I believe, to Mr. Bruce that Brown had given +some fish to some other merchant, and directly his house was put +up for let. + +583. In what way was it put up for let? Was it advertised?-Yes; +it was advertised at the store, as it was a public place. + +584. Did you see the notice?-No; I did not see it, but I was +informed that some notice was put up. The thing was found out to +be false, and Brown got leave to stay where he was. + +585. How long ago was that?-I could not exactly say, but I think +it was somewhere about eight or ten years ago. + +586. Have you known of any person being warned off the ground +for not dealing at the store?-No; there is no compulsion about +that. We have liberty to deal at any place we like; but when our +credit is cut off the way I have mentioned, there is no use in having +that liberty. + +587. You say your credit is cut off because you are compelled to +fish for the landlord?-Yes. + +588. Therefore that is virtually compulsion to deal at the store: is +that what you mean to say?-Yes; of course it comes to that. +Suppose we have liberty to deal at any place we like, still if a man +does not have money his credit is cut off with any other merchant, +so that he must deal at the landlord's store. + +589. When you deliver your fish, do you get any money that you +want?-Yes. Mr. Bruce always gave me money when I wanted it, +if he had money of mine in his hands; indeed he always gave me +what money I asked, whether I had any to get or not. I always +found him very generous in that way. + +590. Therefore, whenever you wanted money for your fish you got +it, even although it was a long time before settling day?-Yes; Mr. +Bruce will give money at any time throughout the whole season, +especially to men that he knows have it to get. + +[Page 12] + +591. You have no complaint to make about that?-No. + +592. The fishing, I understand, begins in April?-Yes. + +593. And when does it end?-About September. + +594. Suppose you wanted to draw all the money, or about all the +money, that was due to you in August or September, is it likely +that you would get it?-If I did not have very much to get, perhaps +I might get it all, or perhaps more; but if I did have much to get, I +don't think he would be inclined to give it all. + +595. If you wanted anything, and could not get the money, would +you be obliged to take the goods out of his store?-Of course if I +could not get money from him, and was requiring the goods, I had +no other chance than taking them from the store. + +596. If you wanted a supply of provisions or clothing, you would +have to get them there?-Yes. + +597. Do you get both provisions and clothes at the store?-There +is not much clothing there. + +598. Where do you get the rest of your clothing?-At any place +where we can get it cheapest when we can have a few shillings in +hand. + +599. Where are the other stores in that district?-There is a man, +Mr. Gavin Henderson, who has a store about four or five miles +from us; and I believe he generally sells things at as cheap a rate as +they can be got in the country. + +600. Have you dealt at his store?-Yes; occasionally. + +601. Do you find the goods that you get from Henderson to be +cheaper than those in Mr. Bruce's store?-Yes; they are cheaper +than we can get them at any other place. + +602. Give me an instance of that: have you bought meal at both +places?-No, I have not bought meal from there. + +603. What have you bought at Henderson's store?-I have +sometimes bought leather for making boots and shoes. + +604. Do you not buy your shoes ready-made?-No. + +605. You buy your leather, and get somebody to make them?- +Yes. + +606. What is the difference in the price of the leather at the two +places?-We generally think that we can get it a few shillings +cheaper at Henderson's store than we can get it elsewhere. + +607. Do you mean that the leather for a pair of boots is a few +shillings cheaper at Henderson's store than at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes. + +608. Is there any other article you can specify on which there is a +difference of price?-I don't know shout anything else in +particular. + +609. Where do you get your bread?-We buy all our meal, and +bake it for ourselves. + +610. You spoke about the meal being 4s. a boll cheaper at Lerwick +than at Mr. Bruce's: do you know that because you have bought it +there yourself?-No; but I have asked what the price of the meal +was in Lerwick-sometimes when I was there, and sometimes +from people that I could rely upon. Of course we did not know +what the price of Mr. Bruce's meal was until we came to settle. + +611. But you found out at settling time that Mr. Bruce had charged +you 4s. more per boll than meal was selling for at the same time in +Lerwick?-Yes. + +612. Are you quite sure of that?-Yes. + +613. Is the quality of meal from the store good?-Generally it is; + +614. You have no fault to find with the quality?-I have no +complaint against it or against the quality of any of the goods sold +there; they are generally good. + +615. What is the price of a boll of meal at Mr. Bruce's store just +now?-I cannot say. There is not much meal bought at the store +about this time. Most of us have small farms of our own from +which we get meal. + +616. Then it is generally in summer that you buy meal from Mr. +Bruce's store?-Yes. + +617. What was the price of meal during last summer?-I cannot +say, because I had none from them last summer, except the fourth +of a boll. + +618. What was the price of that?-I won't know the price of it +until settling time. I don't think any man dealing there knows the +price of his meal until that time. + +619. Is the only compulsion upon you to fish for Mr. Bruce, that +you are afraid of being turned out of your holdings?-Of course. + +620. If you did not fish for him, or if you sold your fish to another, +would you have to pay liberty money?-I don't think there is +anything of that kind done with us. + +621. You have no written leases?-No. We got the offer of a lease +last year. But it would have made us worse than we are, because +Mr. Bruce would give a lease for fifty years; but he had it in his +power every ten years to raise the rent, so that it would have been +double at the end of the fifty years. + +622. But you had it in your power to refuse that?-Of course; and +we did refuse it. + +623. But you had it in your power to refuse at the end of the ten +years, as well as at first, to pay the increased rent?-No. That was +the condition he offered to give us the lease upon. Besides, he was +to have it in his power to cause any man who took a lease to make +such improvements as he thought proper; and if he did not make +the improvements then Mr. Bruce was to make them himself, and +charge the men a certain interest. + +624. Was the lease which he offered you in writing?-No, it was +in print. I will send a copy of it. + +625. You say there is no liberty money paid in your district +now?-No. My father paid 50s. of liberty money at one time; but +the rents have been raised, so that the liberty money is included in +the rent now. + +626. How long ago was that?-I think it is about ten years since +the rent was raised. + +627. Have you any other reason than you have stated for supposing +that you will be turned out of your ground if you fished for another +than Mr. Bruce?-It is a general belief that we would be turned +out. + +628. But I want to know the ground of that belief. How long is it +since Mr. Bruce took up the business?-Eleven years. + +629. Was there at that time any intimation made to you or to the +other tenants that you were expected to hand your fish over to +him?-There was a letter from old Mr. Bruce sent round to all his +tenants. One letter served for them all. If I am not mistaken, the +officer went round among them with it. + +630. Did he show you the letter?-He read the letter; and in it Mr. +Bruce stated that he gave his tenants over into the hands of his son. +His son became his tack-master. + +631. That letter was not delivered to you?-No; I don't think it +was. + +632. Was there not a copy of it sent to each tenant?-I don't think +there was. It is eleven years ago; and I don't remember any of the +particulars that were in it. + +633. Do you mean to say that that letter was the beginning of the +understanding which now exists about fishing?-Certainly it was. + +634. What did it say about that matter?-I really cannot say now +what was in the letter. + +635. Did it intimate that he had handed over the Dunrossness +tenants to his son?-Yes; I think that was the purport of the thing. + +636. Did it say anything about the fishing?-It was understood that +he handed over the fishing. At that time there were different +merchants in Lerwick who were receiving fish from the tenants, +and they had all to remove their goods from that district. + +637. Had they stores?-Yes, they had stores and goods for +supplying the fishermen; and they had all to remove except +Messrs. Hay & Co. + +638. Were these merchants warned out?-I cannot say. + +639. I suppose they paid rent to Mr. Bruce for these stores?-Yes; +at least for liberty to have the stores there. + +[Page 13] + +640. Who were these merchants?-Hay & Co. were put +out of the store that Mr. Bruce now occupies. + +641. But they have a store at Dunrossness yet?-Yes, they have a +store there. + +642. How far is it from you?-I think about a quarter of an hour's +walk. + +643. Is it nearer your place than Gavin Henderson's store?-Yes. + +644. Is Hay & Company's store on Mr. Bruce's property?-Yes; +but they have a lease of it, otherwise I believe they would not have +been there. + +645. Can you not sell your fish to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-No. + +646. From whom do they buy fish in that quarter?-The tenants of +Mr. Bruce of Simbister, through the parish, have liberty to sell +their fish where they please, and some of them are sold to Hay & +Co. + +647. Have you ever been prevented from selling your fish to +Messrs. Hay?-I never tried to sell my fish to any other person +than Mr. Bruce since he took the fishing. + +648. Do you know if any man has tried to do that?-Yes; there are +various men who have sold a few to other merchants. On one +occasion young Mr. Bruce asked me whether I had sold any fish to +any other person than him. + +649. When was that?-It would be about half a dozen years ago. I +told him I had sold a little, and I did not think I was doing any sin +before God or man for doing it. + +650. You were not turned out for that?-No. + +651. Have you any grievance in Dunrossness with regard to +whales?-Yes, we often drive whales on shore there; and after +they are killed and pulled ashore, and the oil all taken out, the +landlord takes one-third. + +652. But you are allowed to sell the other two-thirds?-Yes. + +653. To whom do you sell the two-thirds of the oil?-Generally to +merchants in Lerwick. + +654. How are you paid for that?-Not very well at the present +time. + +655. Are you paid in money?-Yes; in cash. Of course it comes +through the proprietor's hands. + +656. Does it enter into your annual accounting with the +proprietor?-Yes. + +657. The proprietor gets the whole money for the oil, retains his +third, and hands you over or puts to your credit the remaining +two-thirds?-Yes. Of course if a man requires the money to clear +his way with the proprietor, it answers that end. If not, then the +proprietors pass over the money to him. + +658. Do you really think that if the proprietor had no store there, +and you could buy your dry goods and provisions from anybody +you like, you would be better off with respect to what you buy?- +No; we could not do without the proprietor's store, because, if we +have to give our earnings to the proprietor, we are obliged to take +goods from his store in return. + +659. But supposing you had liberty to sell your fish where you +pleased, and to buy your goods where you pleased, do you think +you would be any better off than you are?-Yes. There is a man +named Laurence Leslie who went to the fishing in the same boat +with me last summer. He lives in Lerwick, and was a free man, +and he dried his fish for himself, and after he had paid for salt and +curing he had about £5 more than any of us. + +660. Do you mean that he had about £5 more from the home +fishing than you had?-Yes. + +661. Can you tell now the proceeds of your last summer's +fishing?- We will be paid the price that has been paid already in the country. + +662. But you don't know yet what you are to get?-No; Mr. Bruce +said at the commencement that he would give us the currency of +the country. Now Mr. Bruce is one of the greatest fish-dealers in +the country, and of course he has it so far in his power to make the +currency; but it is likely we will get the same as the other +merchants are paying. + +663. Then, in speaking of the sum which Leslie has earned more +than you, you are calculating in this way: you know the price +which other merchants have paid, and you know the quantity you +have delivered?-Yes; and we know in that way what the amount +will be. + +664. What do you think the amount of your take will be?-About +£18. + +665. You think your fishing for the whole of last season will be +£18, at the prices which are going in Lerwick?-Yes. + +666. And you know how much Laurence Leslie has got?-Yes. + +667. Had he about the same quantity of fish as you-Yes; he had +the same quantity divided green. + +668. What quantity had you?-I cannot exactly say. We had so +much ling, so much cod, and so much saith. + +669. You say he was in the same boat with you: were not all the +boat's crew obliged to fish to Mr. Bruce?-All but that one man. + + +670. You separated your fish: did you just give Leslie his +proportion of the whole fish in the boat?-Yes. We kept an +account of his fish and of ours, and we gave him his share; and +then he dried his part for himself. + +671. How many men were in the boat?-Six. + +672. Then, when you came to shore, you delivered five-sixths of +the fish to Mr. Bruce, and Leslie got one sixth?-Yes; that was the +way it generally went. Sometimes we would give all the fish to +Mr. Bruce, and sometimes all to Laurence Leslie, and we kept an +account; so that we could put the thing all right in the end. + +673. Did you do that among yourselves?-Yes. + +674. How did Leslie happen to go in that boat among Mr. Bruce's +men?-Because he belonged to the place originally, and he agreed +with us to go. He only left the place last year. + +675. Has he not had a farm there for the last year?-No. + +676. And therefore he did not consider himself bound to deliver +his fish to Mr. Bruce?-Yes. + +677. Who did he sell his fish to?-To Hay. + +678. Were they cured when he sold them?-Yes. Mr. Bruce +would not allow him to weigh his fish on his scales and weights, +because he would not give them to him. + +679. Who forbade him?-Mr. Bruce's factor. + +680. Was that Mr. Irvine?-It was not Mr. Irvine; it was the man +who was there in his place. I recollect that one day we were a +good deal put about in consequence of that. It was a very coarse +day at the fishing, and Hay & Co. did not have weights at the +place, and Mr. Bruce's man would not allow us to weigh the fish +on his weights. + +681. But you were obliged to weigh them in order to find out how +much was Mr. Bruce's share?-We were obliged to weigh the fish +in order to know how they were to be divided among ourselves, +and they had to lie for a whole day until weights were got. + +682. Do you know how much money Leslie got for his fishing?-I +think the whole amount was pretty nearly £26; but then he had +expenses for salt and cure to be taken from that-perhaps 30s. + +683. He would also have his own time and trouble to allow for?- +He had a lad for curing the fish; that is included in the 30s. Of +course Leslie would have some more trouble with it than we had. + +684. That makes a difference of £6, 10s. between you, whereas +you said the difference was about £5?-There may be some +difference of that kind; I am not exactly sure to a few shillings. + +685. Was there no objection made to Laurence Leslie going in the +boat with you?-They did not know that he was, not to fish for +Mr. Bruce until we commenced the fishing, and then they could +not object; but Mr. Bruce's rule is, that he won't take part of a +boat. The whole boat must be for him; and in that way there have +been men who have been forced to part company who were nearly +as bad to part as man and wife. + +686. After the boat's crew was made up, was any objection taken +to Leslie fishing with you?-They could not object then, because +we had begun to the fishing, [Page 14] and they could not get +another man to take his place, even although they had objected. + +687. Do you keep a pass-book, at Mr. Bruce's store for the +supplies you get for your house?-No; it would be of no use for +me to do so. + +688. Why?-Because I do not know the prices of the goods, and +they won't mark them down themselves. + +689. But they would mark the quantities of the articles you got, +would they not?-No; they would not be bothered with that. + +690. Have you ever asked for a pass-book?-Yes; I had a +pass-book, and I had to drop it, because Irvine said he would not +be bothered with it. + +691. Does Mr. Irvine keep the store himself?-Yes. + +692. Does he collect the rents on the property?-No; Mr. Bruce +carries through the annual accounting himself. + +693. When you go to settle with him, the books of the store are all +made up by Mr. Irvine; and does Mr. Bruce state the balance to +you?-Yes. + +694. Does he show you how it is made up?-Mr. Irvine tells us the +amount we have had from the store, and hands that in to Mr. +Bruce. Mr. Bruce enters that against us along with the rent, and +tells us the balance. + +695. What means have you for checking that statement of his? +How do you know whether it is correct or not?-We don't have +the chance of knowing whether is correct or not. + +696. Do you not know how much goods you have got?-Perhaps +we might; but we cannot know the price of the goods. + +697. But you might know how much goods you have got, and how +much fish you have delivered, and how much you have to pay?- +But we don't know the price of the goods. + +698. Do you not know the price of the goods at the end?-We hear +it read over as fast perhaps as it can be read. + +699. Do you not get a copy of it?-Not of the shop account. + +700. Have you ever asked for one?-No. + +701. I thought you told me that you had a copy for some years?- +Yes; from Mr. Bruce, but not from Mr. Irvine, for the store. I have +had a copy of my account from Mr. Bruce for the whole thing, and +it contained a sum for the goods got from the store; but it was all +one sum. + +702. It is a slump sum, and does not show the different articles?- +Yes; that is the account which I promised to send. + +703. You say you have asked for a pass-book, and have been +refused it?-Yes; I had one, and Mr. Irvine threw it back again, +and said he would not be bothered with it. + +704. When was that?-I think about two years ago. + +705. You brought a pass-book and handed it to Mr. Irvine, and +asked him to put your account into it as the articles were +furnished, and he refused to do so?-Yes; I wished to have a +knowledge of how I was going on. + +706. When does the annual settlement take place?-Generally in +February or March. + +707. Where do you meet for the purpose of settling?-At +Sumburgh, at Mr. Bruce's office. + +708. Has he an office in his own house?-Yes. + +709. Are all the people summoned to meet there on a particular +day?-There are certain men called for a particular day, according +as he can get through them,-so many men for each day. + +710. How long does it take you to settle with him?-Perhaps three +or four hours. It is possible I might be three or four hours with +him myself. Generally three men go in a boat, and the three men +would probably take six hours, or perhaps only four hours. + +711. You said there were six men in your boat last year?-Yes, +there were six in our boat, but three is the usual number in the +smaller boats. + +712. And they will perhaps all go together to Mr. Bruce?-Yes, +the men in every boat go together; and Mr. Bruce gives us every +chance of being satisfied with our accounts that he possibly can. + +713. Except giving you a note of them?-He will give us a note. + +714. A short note; but he won't give you the full account?-We +don't get the full account from the shop, but that, of course is not +in Mr. Bruce's hand. + +715. He only gets the sum-total due at the shop?-Yes; and he has +the rest in his own books. The rest of the balance is in his own +hand, and of course he gives us every satisfaction about it. + +716. But the shop is his too?-Yes. + +717. Did you ever ask him to let a pass-book be allowed you, or an +account to be given you at the shop?-No; I never asked him for +that. + +718. Did you ever complain to him that you did not get it?-No. + +719. Did you ever complain about any of the sums brought out in +the shop account as not being due by you?-No, I could not do +that, because I could scarcely tell whether it was right or wrong. + +720. In fact you trusted to the honesty of the shopkeeper?-I was +obliged to do that. + +721. Then you say that you never see any statement of your +account for goods supplied to you at the shop at all?-None, +except the total. The total is handed in to Mr. Bruce at settling +time. + +722. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is one thing I +would like to ask. In consequence of my coming here, I expect +nothing but that I will be turned off; and I would ask how I am to +proceed. + +723. I don't think you need be afraid of that; but if there is +anything done to you in consequence of the evidence which you +have given here, you had better write and let me know. Of course +I am only to be here for a short time; but it would be my duty to +communicate the fact to some of my superiors. There is one other +thing I would like to mention: that any amount of liberty would be +of very little account in Shetland, so long as the proprietors have +power to turn off men at any time when they have a mind to do so. + +724. At the end of the summer fishing is there generally a balance +in your favour at the accounting between you and the landlord?- +Sometimes there is, and sometimes not. I believe I generally stand +about half and half. + +725. Do you mean that if your fishing is worth £18, your account +at the store and your rent will be about £9 or £10?-No; there are +some years in which my account at the store, and my rent, are +above the whole amount of my year's earnings,-while there are +other years when my earnings are above my shop account and rent. + +726. When the year's earnings are less than your account, is the +balance written down against you for the next year?-Yes. + +727. Then that is an additional reason why you are bound to fish to +your landlord, because when you are in his debt you cannot very +well sell your fish to another?-If we had our liberty, we could sell +our fish to another merchant. + +728. But suppose you had liberty, would not the fact of your being +in debt to your landlord still be a sort of obligation upon you to +fish for him?-It would still bind us, of course. + +729. Does that cause operate, in fact, to tie the fishermen to the +same merchant?-When the men have had their liberty, that has +been the case. + +730. Was it the case before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his +own hands?-Yes. + +731. So that many men in those times would be unable to sell their +fish to another merchant than Messrs. Hay or Mr. Robertson, who +had the fishing then?-Yes; of course there were times when the +fishing was small, and perhaps men required a lot of meal, and +they could not get it without going into debt; and when merchants +supported them in that way, the men could not do better than hand +over their fish to the merchants to whom they were in debt. + +732. So that there was even then a certain obligation on the men to +fish to a particular merchant?-[Page 15] Yes. When a man is in +debt, he is under an obligation to clear his debt. + +733. But your complaint is, that you are much more strictly bound +now?-Yes; there was no obligation for a man to clear his debt +with any merchant before now. + +734. Was there then any obligation to purchase at that merchant's +store?-None. + +735. Except that perhaps they would not get credit elsewhere?- +Exactly. + +736. In those times did the men get advances in money during the +season when they asked them?-Yes. + +737. But you still get that?-Yes, we get that still, of course. + +738. If you choose, you can get your provisions elsewhere; and if +you choose to get them elsewhere, you will get all your money at +the end of the season?-Yes, if we had any over; but if we had no +money over, of course the merchant from whom we had to get our +goods would have to want. + + +Lerwick, January 2, 1872, LAURENCE LESLIE, examined. + +739. You are now a fisherman in Lerwick?-Yes. + +740. You formerly lived at Dunrossness?-Yes. + +741. And you had a piece of ground from Mr. Bruce of +Sumburgh?-Yes. + +742. You have been present during the examination of the +previous witness, and heard the whole of his examination?-Yes. + +743. Do you concur in that part of it which referred to yourself +with regard to the quantity of fish you got last season?-I do. + +744. What may be the total price you got for your cured fish?-We +had three different kinds of fish-saith, cod, and ling. We got 12s. +per cwt. for saith, I think 18s. for cod, and 20s. for ling, dried. + +745. The quantity which you had to sell was the same when +weighed green as that which Laurence Mail delivered to Mr. +Bruce?-Of course. + +746. You lived in Dunrossness for a number of years?-Yes. + +747. Do you concur with the rest of the evidence which Laurence +Mail gave?-I do. + +748. It was all correct?-Yes. + +749. Do you know a man named William Brown at Millpond?- +Yes. + +750. Was he a fisherman?-Yes. + +751. How far did he live from your place?-I think about two +miles. + +752. Do you know whether at any time lately he and some other +old men went fishing on their own account, and were obliged to +pay liberty money?-Yes; he stated that he had been applied to for +payment of liberty money. + +753. How long ago was that?-I think it was three years ago. + +754. Is Brown an old man?-Yes; perhaps between fifty and sixty. + +755. Would he be able to come to Lerwick?-He might. + +756. Would it not be rather hard for a man of his age to come this +length?-I think it would be rather hard; but I think he could +come. + +757. To whom had he to pay that liberty money?-To Mr. +Grierson of Quendale, his landlord. + +758. Is Mr. Grierson a fish-merchant too?-Yes. + +759. Do you know James Williamson at Berlin, Dunrossness?- +Yes. + +760. Is he on Mr. Grierson's land?-Yes. + +761. Do you know anything about a boy of his who had gone out to +service with a neighbouring farmer lately?-I know that he has a +boy, but I cannot say anything about him going to service. I don't +think Williamson could come here; he is in ill health at present. + + +Lerwick, January 2, 1872, WALTER WILLIAMSON, examined. + +762. You are a fisherman in the island of Burra?-I am. + +763. Do you hold a piece of ground there under Messrs. Hay & +Co., who are the lessees of Burra under Misses Scott of +Scalloway?-I do. + +764. You are one of the men who signed the following letter which +has been addressed to me:- + ' Burra Isle, 1st Jan. +1872. + 'SIR, We, the undersigned, desire to give evidence to the +following effect, and will be glad to be informed when it will be +convenient for you to receive our evidence':- + 'We are bound by agreement to fish to our landlord; but no +price is agreed upon until the time of settlement, which occurs +about once a year. We have then to take what price is offered; and +if we or our sons fish to any other person, we have to pay 20s. each +yearly of '<liberty money>.' + 'We can get no leases of our farms, and have to build and +repair our own houses at our own expense, without any +compensation when leaving the farm, or when ejected from it. + 'As we settle only once a year, of course we have to buy from +our landlord's shop till the end of the year, at which time we +seldom have any money to get, except when we have better +fishings than ordinary. + 'If we capture whales, we have to pay one-third of the +proceeds to the landlord. + 'Those of us who have daughters engaged in knitting can +testify to the fact that they are invariably paid in goods, both for +the goods they sell, and also for their wages when engaged to knit +for the hosiery dealers. + 'We have to add, that we wish to be free to fish to whom we +please, or to cure our own fish, and to receive compensation for +improvements effected on our houses or farms when we leave +them. + 'Other details we will state when called before you. Meantime +we remain, sir, your most obedient servants, + 'WALTER WILLIAMSON. + 'GILBERT GOODLAD. + 'LAURENCE POTTINGER. + 'PETER SMITH. + 'LAURENCE INKSTER. 'CHARLES SINCLAIR + 'JOHN NEWTON GOODLAD. + 'HANCE SMITH. + 'ROBERT SINCLAIR. + 'JOHN POTTINGER. + 'ALEXANDER SINCLAIR. + 'THOMAS CHRISTIE. + 'GEORGE JAMIESON. +'To WILLIAM GUTHRIE, Esq., + ' H.M. Commissioner, Lerwick.' +-I am. + +765. You say in that letter, 'We are bound by agreement to fish to +our landlord, but no price is agreed upon until the time of +settlement, which occurs about once a year. We have then to take +what price offered; and if we or our sons fish to any other person, +we have to pay 20s. each yearly of 'liberty money.' Is that an +obligation which you have entered into with Messrs. Hay & +Co.?-It is an obligation that we are under, that we are bound over +to them. + +766. Have you signed any obligation to that effect?-I was asked +to sign an obligation to that effect; but I said I could not sign to +bind my sons, and that I would on no account come under that +obligation. + +767. How long ago was that?-To the best of my recollection, it +was about eight years ago. + +768. Was there an agreement to that effect handed to you for +signature?-Yes. + +769. And to a number of other men at the same time?-Yes. + +770. By whom was it handed to you?-By Mr. Wm. Irvine, who is +a partner of the firm of Hay & Co. + +771. Was that in Burra or here?-It was in Messrs. Hay & Co.'s +office in Lerwick. + +772. Was it handed to the other men at the same time?-It was +offered to them at the same time that it [Page 16] was offered to +me. A certain number of them were present at the time. + +773. How many?-I should think there might have been five +present, exclusive of myself. + +774. Did they all sign it?-I cannot say that they did, for I went out +and left them there. + +775. Then you are under no written obligation to fish for your +landlord?-No. + +776. Is there any other understanding or bargain between you that +you shall fish only for him?-Yes, we were told that we must fish +for them. + +777. When was that said to you?-At the time, when I took a +property from them in Burra. + +778. How long is that since?-About fourteen years ago. + +779. Who told you so then?-The late Mr. William Hay. + +780. Have you ever been told so since?-I have. + +781. By whom?-By Mr. William Irvine. + +782. How long ago is that?-It is just eight years. + +783. Was that at the same time when you were asked to sign the +agreement?-Yes; it was on the same day. + +784. Have you ever been told so since that time?-No; I have +never sought to fish for anybody else, nor asked my liberty since +then. I asked for my liberty that day when I was asked to sign the +agreement. + +785. Was it given to you?-No. I offered to pay 20s. if they would +give me my liberty, but I could not get it for that. + +786. Was any price fixed by them for that?-I offered 20s. for my +liberty to fish for whom I liked, or to cure for myself, and I could +not get it for the paying of the 20s. + +787. Were you told what they would give it to you for?-No; they +would not say. + +788. Do you wish to fish for anybody else?-I should certainly +wish to fish for anybody that I could get most from; but I should +like especially to be the master of my own fish, to cure them for +myself, and to sell them to the best advantage. + +789. You mean you would like to catch and cure your own fish, +and then sell them, do you?-Yes; that is what I would like. + +790. Why do you, not do it?-Because we would be ejected from +the place if we were not to deliver our fish to them. + +791. What is your reason for supposing that?-Because we have +been told so. + +792. Was it on the occasion you have mentioned, eight years ago, +that you were told so?-It was. + +793. Have you been told since that you would be ejected if you did +not deliver your fish to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have never since +asked anything about it, so that I had no reason to be told so. + +794. Has any person been ejected for selling fish to other +merchants than Hay & Co., or for curing his own fish?-I think +there have been such cases in Burra. I believe John Leask was +ejected for not serving as a fisherman to Messrs. Hay & Co. + +795. How long ago was that?-I think it would be about thirteen +years since, or close thereby. + +796. That is an old story. Has there been anybody ejected since?- +I don't remember any one at present. + +797. Do you know from your own knowledge of any threats of +ejection having been made to parties who were fishing for +others?-Yes. + +798. Who were so threatened?-We were threatened at that very +time, eight years ago, that we should be ejected if we did not sign +the agreement. + +799. But do you know of any threats to particular parties for +particular offences since that time?-There never have been any +threats made to me, and I cannot remember exactly about them +having been used to others; but there are parties here who may +remember better about that than I do. + +800. You say further in the letter, 'We can get no leases of our +farms, and we have to build and repair our own houses at our own +expense, without any compensation when leaving the farm, or +when ejected from it.' That does not exactly fall under this +inquiry, though it may perhaps indirectly affect it; but I suppose +the obligation to build and repair your own houses is part of the +bargain you enter into on taking the land?-It is. + +801. Are you not at liberty to make your own bargain about the +land, the same as any other tenant in Scotland is?-I am not aware +of that. + +802. Suppose you were to object to make such a bargain, could +you not leave the land and get a holding elsewhere?-It is not +likely we would get a holding elsewhere. + +803. Why?-We would very likely be deprecated as not being +legal subjects, and the heritors would all know that we were not +convenient parties to give land to. What is one reason; and +another reason is, that places are sometimes not very easily got. + +804. Do the same conditions exist on other properties in +Shetland?-So far as I know, they prevail all over the country, or +nearly so. + +805. You think that if you were trying to move, you would not get +free of a condition of that sort?-We might get free of it for a +time, but by next year the parties to whose ground we had removed +might bind us down to the same thing. + +806. But supposing all the men were united in refusing to agree to +such conditions, there could be no compulsion upon them?-They +have not the courage, I expect, to make such an agreement among +themselves. + +807. To come to the more proper subject of the inquiry: you go on +to say, 'As we settle only once year, of course we have to buy from +our landlord's shop till the end of the year, at which time we have +seldom any money to get, except when we have better fishings +than ordinary.' Your settlement, I suppose, takes place about the +beginning of the year for the whole of the previous year?-Yes; +generally a month after the beginning of the year. + +808. And at that time you settle with your landlords, Messrs. Hay +& Co., for all the provisions you have got from their shop?-Yes. + +809. Where is their shop?-They have shops both at Lerwick and +Scalloway. + +810. Does the same man keep an account at both shops?-The +same company keeps a store at Scalloway and a store at Lerwick. + +811. But has the same man a book in both shops?-Yes; he has a +book in both shops. + +812. The men deal at both?-Some men in the islands deal at +both, and others, again, have liberty to deal only at one. + +813. Then, at the settlement time, you settle for all the provisions +you have got from the shops, and for the rent that is due for your +farm, and they set against that the price of the fish you have +delivered?-Yes. + +814. And you say that generally the account against you is as large, +or larger, than that in your favour?-Taking it generally amongst +the tenants on the island, I believe it is. + +815. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the +season when you ask for it?-Yes, I have always, or generally, got +it when I asked for it. + +816. Suppose that at the close of the fishing season-that is, in +September-you were to ask for all the money that was due for +your fish, or for a sum about equal to the value of your fish, would +you get it?-I don't expect I would get it. + +817. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes. + +818. In September, or about that time?-I asked it on 1st +November, thirteen years ago. + +819. That is a long time ago?-That was the first year I was +resident in Burra; I had been there for a twelvemonth then. + +820. What did you ask for, then?-I asked for the value of the fish +that belonged to a fee'd man who had been along with me for +three months in autumn. I fee'd a young man for these months to +go along with me to the summer fishing at that time; he was to get +one-third of the fish, and I was to supply him with boat, lines, and +lodging. At the end of autumn he went home, and he wanted me +to introduce him to Messrs. Hay's agent, so that he might get his +money. + +[Page 17] + +821. Did he want to leave the island?-He did not belong to the +island; and as he was going home, he wanted to be paid, and he +asked me to introduce to the agent, which I did. + +822. Did you apply for his money?-Yes, as being a stranger I +wanted them to settle with him; but they would not settle with him +at all, I then asked for an advance of 20s. on my own account, and +I would give it to him for his trouble; but they would not give that +either. + +823. At that time had you and he a large contra account against +you in the shop?-Neither of us had any account against us at all. +He told me that at the time he had not a penny taken out from +either of their stores. + +824. Was he offered goods at that time?-Yes; in my hearing. + +825. What was said about that?-He was told to take anything he +wanted out of the store. + +826. Where was that?-At Scalloway, I expect, or Lerwick. + +827. Can you tell me of anything of the same kind happening +within the last two or three years?-I don't recollect anything of +the kind happening within that time, so far as I was personally +concerned. + +828. Have you, within the last two or three years, always had a +large account against you at the beginning of the winter?-Not of +a bad debt. + +829. But have you had a large account against you for goods +supplied during the course of the season?-Yes; I have generally +had a considerable account so far as our accounts go. + +830. Was that the reason for your not asking for a settlement of it +at that time?-I cannot say whether that would be the reason or +not. + +831. Did you know that you had got the value of your fish, or +something approaching to it, in provisions?-Some of us in Burra +had, no doubt, got the whole value in goods, and had even +overdrawn their accounts, but others of us had not. + +832. But if you want money in the course of the autumn or in the +early part of the winter, do you not get an advance on applying for +it at Messrs. Hay's place?-I only know of those getting it who +might be worthy of it, who had not overdrawn their accounts. + +833. But they will give you money as readily as they will give you +goods now?-I suppose they would in Lerwick, but I don't think +they would do that at Scalloway. + +834. What is your reason for supposing that?-About twelve +months ago I went once, twice, and at last three times with some +fish to their fish-curing place in Scalloway; and their law there was +that we should only get goods for our fish, but no money. + +835. Who told you that?-Mr. Gilbert Tulloch, the shopkeeper, the +master of the store. + +836. Is he the shopkeeper for Messrs. Hay at Scalloway?-Yes. + +837. Did you on that occasion ask for money for the fish you +delivered?-The last time I went up, after taking a number of +small things that I was requiring, there was a shilling due to me on +the fish which I had delivered, and I asked for it. Mr. Tulloch said +that I knew it was not the custom to give money. I said I knew that +too well, but that it could not affect him very much to give me a +few pence, as he had got much more from me in the course of the +year. He hung on for a little bit and then put his hand on the +counter and gave it to me; but he bade me remember it was to be +the last. + +838. You say the amount of your account is made up in the +beginning of the year: how did you know that the cost of the +provisions you were getting at the time you have now mentioned +came to within 1s. of what was due?-There is a misunderstanding +between us there. We have an opportunity of taking goods out of +their stores; but when we come to their store at Scalloway with a +little fish, we get goods from them there, without them entering +into the annual settlement. That is not the proper place where we +deliver our fish to Messrs. Hay-the proper place is in the island +of Burra itself, but we have a chance of coming to Scalloway +occasionally when we have got a few small fish, and we get goods +home with us. + +839. Then, when you want goods, you take the fish to +Scalloway?-Yes, but we can also get goods there, although we +deliver the fish at the proper place in Burra. + +840. In that case, do you get a line from the manager at Burra +stating that you have delivered so much fish?-No. + +841. Then how do they know to allow you goods?-When we take +the fish up to the store at Scalloway, we only get goods for their +exact value. In the case I have mentioned I got goods up to the +value of my fish within a shilling. + +842. Did you not say you could also get goods at Scalloway +although you delivered the fish at Burra?-Yes; that is on account +of the fish which we give to the local factor. + +843. And the goods you get in that case go to the general account +for the whole year?-Yes. + +844. Then those which you deliver at Scalloway are not put into +the general account at all?-No. + +845. That is to say, you are at liberty to deliver your fish elsewhere +than to the factor at Burra?-Yes. + +846. But the only place where you are at liberty to deliver them, if +you do not deliver them to the factor in Burra, is to the store at +Scalloway?-Yes. + +847. And you take them there if you want a supply of goods?- +Yes. + +848. Is there any reason for preferring that way of dealing?-We +have none. + +849. But have you any reason for preferring to take the fish to +Scalloway and getting the goods, rather than delivering them to the +factor at Burra and having the goods entered in your general +account?-We have then got the pleasure of seeing our fish paid +for all at once. That is all the advantage we have about it, so far as +I know. + +850. Have you a chance of getting more money in hand if you take +the fish to Scalloway?-Not one farthing more. I have got none +this year. + +851. But on the other system you may still get an advance of +money if you ask for it?-Yes; I believe I might get some money if +I wanted it. + +852. Would you get it from the factor at Burra, or at Scalloway or +Lerwick?-So far as I am aware, I would only get it at Lerwick. + +853. Do you purchase in that way, from Messrs. Hay, all your +provisions and clothing, and everything you want for the support +of your families?-As a general thing over the islands, it is only +from them we can get them. It is only from them we need ask +them, because we have no power to sell the labour of our hands to +any one else. + +854. And you have no credit with any one else?-Some of us +would have credit; but the system prevents us from getting credit, +because we could not pay the parties from whom we got the goods. + +855. But if these parties knew that you were getting money from +Messrs. Hay for your fish, would it not be possible for you to get +the money from Messrs. Hay, and with it to pay the other +dealers?-That may be done no doubt on a very small scale, for +anything I know. I believe it is done, to a certain extent, by +persons who get a few pence or a few pounds from Messrs. Hay; +but it is only a few of the men who are able to deal in that way. + +856. You say in your letter that you don't know the prices you are +to get for your fish until the end of the year: is that so?-Yes, it is +so. + +857. Messrs. Hay & Co. do not fix the price until what time of the +year?-They do not fix it until we settle-about a month after the +New Year. + +858. So that you don't know before then what you are to get?-We +never do. + +859. Have you ever been to agree to fish at a certain price per +cwt.?-I never was asked to agree to that during the whole +fourteen years I have served them. + +860. Would you like to have a certain price per cwt. [Page 18] +fixed before the commencement of the season?-We should like +that well enough if we had power ourselves to inquire after it, but +we should not like it if it was to be left in the hands of another who +had power to make the price what he pleased. + +861. You also say, in your letter, 'If we capture whales, we have to +pay one-third of the proceeds to the landlord.' Is that a frequent +source of profit to you in Shetland?-It is not, a very frequent +source. It is occasional, but not frequent. + +862. What is your objection to that system?-We think that as we +the fishermen, drive the whales ashore, and they are all flinched +and wrought below high-water mark, we have a right to the whole +proceeds. We think the proprietor has no right to anything at all, +any more than he has to the fish that come ashore in our boats. + +863. But when you get the whales you get two-thirds of the oil?- +We do. + +864. And you can sell that in any market you like-I believe we +can. + +865. Do you get cash for it?-Yes. + +866. So that there is no truck there?-No; none. + +867. Do you dispose of the oil yourselves, or is it done for you by +the landlord?-I always knew of it being sold by public auction on +the beach where it was landed. + +868. Is it sold in lots consisting of the amount of oil which each +man gets?-I always knew of it being sold in company; but it is set +up in lots, perhaps of a tun, or five tuns, or half a tun, and so on, +and it is carried away by the purchaser. + +869. Then the landlord does not sell it you?-No. + +870. How is his third set apart?-It is taken off the whole money +when it has been paid by the purchasers. Any party or parties who +buy the oil at auction, pay the money to the landlord, and he gets a +third, and pays the other two-thirds to the fishermen. + +871. Is it paid to you at the time, or is it put into your general +account?-So far as I know, it is always paid at the time. + +872. But that is not a common occurrence?-No. Perhaps it may +not occur in the same place for ten or twelve or twenty years, or +sometimes longer than that. + +873. Does not the value of the oil go into the general accounts of +the men at the end of the year?-I have had a share in whales on +two occasions, and I believe that some of the fishermen who are in +debt to the landlord will allow their shares to go into the general +account. Those who are not in debt will get the money clear out. + +874. You are not obliged to take that in goods?-I never knew of +that being done. + +875. In speaking of the fishing, for which you settle with Messrs. +Hay in the beginning of the year, all your evidence has had regard +to what is called the home or summer fishing?-Yes. + +876. It has not had reference to the Faroe fishing-Not so much, +so far as I know. + +877. It is only with regard to the home fishing that you are bound +to fish for them?-It is only with regard to it that I can speak, for I +am not a Faroe fisherman. + +878. Are the men in Burra free to ship for the Faroe fishing with +any master they like?-I expect they are; but there are some of the +men to be examined afterwards, who will be better witnesses on +that subject than I can be. + +879. The fish you take in the summer fishing are ling, cod, and +haddocks?-Yes. There are plenty in the islands who fish herrings +also. + +880. But that is a distinct thing altogether from the summer +fishing?-Yes. + +881. The fishing you have been speaking to during all your +examination has been the fishing for ling and cod?-I have been +speaking of the whole home fishing of every kind, the herring +fishing as well. + +882. What do you catch in what you call the home fishing?-Ling, +cod, and herrings. + +883. And haddocks?-Yes; there are plenty of the men who catch +haddocks also. + +884. You spoke of taking some fish to Scalloway: were not these +merely the small fish or haddocks?-Yes; the haddocks chiefly, +and small cod. + +885. Is that done at a particular season of the year?-Yes. +886. That is, when Messrs. Hay have not men at Burra to receive +the large fish; or have they men there all the year round?-They +have them all the year round. + +887. Then why is it generally the smaller fish that you take at +Scalloway?-I cannot give a particular statement why it is, except +that the men get their account cleared off at Scalloway with these +small fish. It is only haddocks that are taken there. The haddocks +have never been taken in at their fish-curing station at Burra, so far +as I know. + +888. At what season of the year are these haddocks generally +caught?-In winter. + +889. Do they smoke the haddocks in Burra?-No; they never did +that. + +890. Their establishment there is only for curing the larger fish?- +Yes. + +891. Then, in order to get your haddocks smoked and cured, you +must bring them to Scalloway, and deliver them at the store +there?-Yes. + +892. And that is the reason why you bring some of your fish to +Scalloway?-It is. + +893. Supposing you bring these fish there, is it still in your option +to let them enter your general account, instead of getting goods for +them at the time?-We can either take the value of them at the +time in goods, or we can have them entered in our general account. + +894. Have you ever asked, when bringing fish to Scalloway, to get +the price of them in money?-Yes. + +895. Have you asked for the whole price in money?-I don't +remember that I ever asked to get the whole of it in that way. + +896. Why?-Because, of course, I knew I would not get it. + +897. How did you know that?-I knew it, because last year I asked +only for a shilling on one occasion, and I was told by the +shopkeeper that it was to be the last. + +898. Then you go on to say in your letter, 'Those of us who have +daughters engaged in knitting can testify to the fact that they are +invariably paid in goods both for the goods they sell and also for +their wages when engaged to knit for the hosiery dealers.' Have +you sold goods for your daughters, or do they generally take them +to the market themselves?-I have no daughters, and I cannot give +evidence about the knitting. + +899. You further say, 'We have to add, that we wish to be free to +fish to whom we please or to cure our own fish, and to receive +compensation for improvements effected on our houses or farms +when we leave them. Other details we will state when called +before you. That is the same complaint which you made at the +commencement of your letter?-Yes. + +900. Are there any other details on the subject which occur to you +at this moment, and which you desire to add?-There is one thing +which I desire to ask on behalf of myself and of the parties who +shall be examined after me. I have been desired to ask you +whether they shall be at liberty to speak here? If her Majesty's +Government will give an obligation to protect them, they will +speak then, and if not, they won't. + +901. What is the obligation to protect them that you want?-An +obligation that they shall not be ejected or fined. + +902. I don't think there is any probability of that. You know you +are all protected by the law, and I can give you no further +protection than the law affords. The Government have it under +contemplation at present to alter the law, and this inquiry is for the +purpose of ascertaining whether the law ought to be altered in any +respect.-If we had not been under the belief that it would surely +be altered, we would not have come here. + +903. Do you remember, three or four years ago, of the men in +Burra getting up a memorial stating their [Page 19] grievances, +and what they wanted, and having it forwarded to the agent for the +proprietor of the island?-I do. + +904. Were you concerned in that matter?-I was. + +905. Was there any inquiry made at that time?-There was a +petition sent up at that time to the trustee in Edinburgh for Misses +Scott of Scalloway, by their tenants in Burra, asking for their +liberty. + +906. Was there any particular reason at that time for the petition +being got up?-There was plenty of reason. + +907. Was there any more reason for it then than at any other time? +Was there any threatened expulsion, or any strict enforcement of +the obligation to fish?-If my memory serves me right it was +immediately after we had been asked to sign an obligation in +Messrs. Hay's office to pay for our sons' labour. + +908. But you said that was eight years ago?-Yes; about that time. + +909. Was the memorial not sent up within the last three or four +years?-No; it was longer than that, to the best of my recollection. +Our petition was got up very shortly after we were wanted to sign +the obligation. + +910. Did you complain much at that time about the herring +fishery?-I believe some of the men did but am not a herring +fisher. + +911. What is the usual amount of rent that you pay in Burra?-It +will run from £6 to £2, 10s., or perhaps as high as £7. + +912. That rent is paid for a small piece of ground?-Yes. + +913. Is there a right to the pasture in the scattald besides?-Yes. + +914. Your scattalds in Burra are not extensive or of much value?- +No; they are of very little value. + +915. Do you know of any other agreement having been signed by +the Burra men, or asked from them, except that one eight years +ago?-I have heard of another, but it was before I came to the +island. + +916. Was there any particular reason for getting the agreement +signed eight years ago? Was there general renewal of your +holdings; or what reason was assigned for it?-I know of no +reason for it, except merely that we were to fish for nobody except +Messrs. Hay & Co. + +917. But was there any reason for it being signed that particular +time?-I believe it was about that time, or immediately after, that +Mr. Irvine came to be a partner of Messrs. Hay & Co. + +918. There was a change in the firm about that time?-Yes. + +919. Are there any leases given in Burra?-I never knew of any +being given. + +920. Do you know that most of the young men in Burra go to the +Faroe fishing?-They do. + +921. Do you know that they have shipped both with Messrs. Hay +and with other merchants?-Yes. + +922. Do they get the same terms both from Messrs. Hay and from +other merchants?-I believe they do, so far as I know. + +923. Do you know from your own knowledge, whether there is any +objection made by Messrs. Hay to their shipping with other +merchants for the Faroe fishing?-I have not heard of any recently, +but it used to be objected to a few years back. There have been +good fishings at Faroe for some time back, and all the agents can +get plenty of men; so that there is no need for any restrictions. + +924. Supposing you were at liberty to deliver your fish to any other +merchant than Messrs. Hay, what reason have you for supposing +that you would be better paid than you now are?-I have been a +fisherman in Burra for fourteen years, and I was a fisherman in +Havera for twenty years before that. There I cured my own fish, +and I could do with them what I liked; and I learned there how +much I could make by curing them for myself, or selling them to +any one within reach who would buy them green. + +925. It costs you something, both money and trouble in curing +them?-Yes. + +926. But, notwithstanding that, you would make more money by +being allowed cure them for yourself?-We believe that, and we +know it. We know that we would make more money than we have +ever got. + +927. To whom would you have an opportunity of selling your fish +cured?-We could them to any one who would give us the most +for them. + +928. Are there people there who would buy them from you?-Yes, +there are plenty of merchants in Shetland or in the south country +who would come and buy them; and we would have a chance of +sending them south at our own risk, or to our own advantage. + +929. Has any one in Burra ever cured his own fish?-No; I believe +no one has ever done so since Burra rose out of the water. + +930. Has any one near Burra done so?-Havera is near Burra, and +belongs to the same parish, and I cured my own fish there. + +931. Why did you leave Havera and go to Burra?-Havera is a +very small island, and it became too strait for me. + +932. The population was increasing too rapidly?-Yes. + +933. Had you not a holding of your own there?-No; I got married, +and had to look out for a holding somewhere; and I was, by the +law of necessity, compelled to move against my will. + +934. Are there any dealers in Scalloway who would buy your fish +from you if you were allowed to sell them?-Yes; there are +Charles Nicholson and Robert Tait. + +935. Do they buy fish cured?-They buy them either cured or +uncured, and also what may be properly called half-cured-that is, +salted but not dried. + +936. Do they employ fishermen?-Charles Nicholson employs +fishermen. + +937. Do the fishermen who are employed by Nicholson and Tait +supply their fish to them green or dry, as they like?-They only +give them to them green, so far as I know. + +938. But these merchants also buy cured fish from independent +fishermen?-Yes. + +939. With regard to your farm, do you sell any produce off your +land?-We sell none. + +940. What does it bear?-Oats and barley, or bere, and potatoes or +turnips, and some cabbage. + +941. Do you sell these things, or do you consume them +yourselves?-We consume them either by ourselves, or by the +stock on our farm. We have some cattle and sheep and pigs . + +942. Do you sell your stock?-The cattle are generally sold to +relieve the tenant's necessities, and in order to let him have a few +shillings in money. + +943. What is that money used for? Is it for things that you cannot +buy in the store?-Yes; and sometimes for paying our rent. + +944. I thought the rent was entered as part of your account with +Messrs. Hay?-If our earnings are not sufficient to meet Messrs. +Hay's account, or if we have overdrawn our account with them, +then we sell an animal, and the price of it is put into the account. + +945. Is there anything else for which you have to sell your +cattle?-I am not aware of anything. + +946. How do you sell them? Is it at a roup or at a public +market?-We sell our cattle where we can dispose of them to the +best advantage-sometimes at the market at Lerwick, and at other +times cattle-dealers come round and ask us for them. If we choose +to give them to the dealers, we have every advantage in selling our +cattle. + +947. You are quite free to sell them where you like-Yes. + +948. Have you any ponies in Burra?-Yes; a few of the men have +some. + +949. And you have also and poultry?-Yes. + +950. You can dispose of them as you please?-Yes. + +951. Is there any shop on the island?-No. + +952. You have to go over to Scalloway or to Lerwick for all your +goods?-Yes. We don't have liberty to have any shop on the +islands. + +953. Are Messrs. Hay sometimes largely in advance [Page 20] to +the people on the island after a bad season?-Yes; I believe they +are largely in advance in some seasons. + +954. Then they will trust you for a year or two until a good season +comes, and the balance is then paid off?-Yes; most commonly +they do that. + +955. You would not have had that advantage if you were all free to +fish for anybody you liked?-We believe that, if we had our +freedom, we would not require to have that advantage. We believe +we would be so clear that we would be independent. Neither have +we the advantage of having a shop there, and keeping the penny +among ourselves. + +956. Do you think the goods you get at Messrs. Hay's shop are +expensive as compared with the prices you would pay for them +elsewhere?-I never thought that, and I never thought them worse +than we could get elsewhere. + +957. But as to the price, do you think they charge more for their +goods than other people?-No; I have nothing to say against that. + +958. Or as to the quality?-Both as to the quality and the price I +was always satisfied as I would have been with any other body's. + +959. You don't suppose they charge a higher price in consequence +of the long credit they give?-No. + +960. You get your goods from January onwards, and they are not +settled for until the following January?-That is so. + +961. But then there is credit on both sides; so that I suppose there +need be no higher price on that account?-That is the case, so far +as I am aware. + +962. Is there anything else you wish to say?-You have not asked +what may be the difference on a hundredweight of fish, if we had +the advantage of selling them for ourselves, as against what we get +for them under the present system. I believe the difference would +be between 2s. and 3s. per cwt. + +963. Do you think your profit would be 2s. or 3s. more per cwt. if +the fish was sold by you?-Yes; if we were free agents to act for +ourselves. + +964. But in the case of a man who was curing on a large scale, has +he not an advantage in the way of curing cheaper than a single +fisherman would have?-We cannot think he would. We know +what we could, cure them for ourselves: that is a matter within our +own knowledge. The merchants tell us they cure, at a dearer rate, +but we cannot enter into their accounts. If it costs them so much +to cure the fish, then they must cure them much dearer than we +know they could be cured for by ourselves. + +965. Is it from your experience in Havera, as compared with your +experience in Burra, that you believe you would be 2s. or 3s. per +cwt. better off by curing the fish for yourselves?-That is from my +experience in Havera, and also from my experience in Burra. + +966. But you have had no experience of selling your own fish +cured for at least thirteen years?-Not cured; but I have had a little +experience in half-cured fish since that time. + +967. Have you sold fish half-cured?-Yes; I have sold a little this +year. + +968. Were these small fish?-Yes. + +969. Did you make more of them than you would have done by +delivering them to the merchant?-I did. + +970. Was any objection taken by Messrs. Hay to your selling the +fish in that way?-I must tell the truth: we did smuggle a few. We +would not like them to know of it, but I suppose they will know of +it by and by. + +971. Is there much smuggling carried on in that way among the +fishermen?-I believe it is done on a very small scale. + +972. But the restrictions you are under do induce you to smuggle +occasionally, in order to get a larger price?-Yes; and on some +occasions, in order to get the ready money. + +973. Do you not always get ready money for smuggled fish?-We +can get it now. + +974. From people in Scalloway?-Yes; but if had our liberty like +Englishmen, we would have no need to smuggle. + +975. Is there anything more you want to say about the matters +referred to in your letter?-I think I have said all I wish to say, +only that our errand in here has been undertaken under the +protection of you, as a commissioner from Her Majesty's +Government, who can give us our liberty; and if it had not been on +that account we would not have come. + + +Lerwick, January 2, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined. + +976. You are a fisherman in Burra?-Yes. + +977. You hold some land in that island under Messrs Hay, and you +fish for them in the home fishing?-Yes. + +978. Do you go to the Faroe fishing also?-No; I never went there. + +979. You have been present during the examination of Walter +Williamson?-Yes. + +980. Do you concur generally in what you have heard him say?- +Yes. + +981. You have been engaged in the herring fishery also?-Yes. + +982. And you were one of the parties who signed memorial to the +trustee on the estate of Scalloway some years ago?-Yes. + +983. Can you remember how long it is since that petition was got +up?-I cannot exactly say, but think it was eight years ago. + +984. Was it shortly after you were asked to sign the obligation +which Williamson mentioned?-Yes. + +985. Do you remember the grievances that were set forth in the +memorial?-Were they the same things that you are complaining +of now, or was there anything additional?-There was nothing +additional. + +986. Was there any prohibition at that time to sell tea to your +neighbours?-There was very little of it sold. + +987. But was it forbidden to sell tea to your neighbours?-Yes. + +988. Is that forbidden now?-We have never tried it since. + +989. Who forbade it?-Messrs. Hay. + +990. Why?-Because they won't allow that to be done on the +island. + +991. What was their reason for that? Did you want to sell tea?- +We did not want to sell tea, except that we were locked up in the +island, and we could not get to Scalloway every day. If a storm +came on and lasted for perhaps eight days, we could not get to the +shop; and some parties might have had a pound or half a pound of +tea in small parcels, and they would supply it to any of their +neighbours who happened be run out. + +992. How did any of the people happen have much tea by them?- +They were working among the fish for Messrs. Hay, and they took +the tea out of their store. + +993. Why did they take it? Did they not want it?-They +sometimes required a few pennies. The merchants at that time +would give nothing but truck, and the people took the tea, and sold +it to their neighbours in order to get a few pence. + +994. How do you know that was forbidden? Was there any order +issued in writing, or otherwise, stating that people should not sell +tea to their neighbours?-It was ordered by word of mouth, and it +was also stated by the obligation which we had to sign in Messrs. +Hay's office. + +995. Did you sign that document?-Yes. + +996. So that, you are now under a written obligation not to sell +tea?-Yes; a written obligation. + +997. Have you heard anything of late years about that prohibition +against selling tea?-No. + +998. Is it common for a neighbour who has got more tea than he +wants, to sell it to another?-No they don't do it now. + +[Page 21] + +999. Why?-I don't know, except just that they are afraid. + +1000. Then, if you want tea or any other goods, must go direct to +the store at Scalloway for them?-Yes, if we have not got money. +If we had money, then we could go to any store we like, and buy +what we want. + +1001. Have the Burra people any complaints to make with regard +to oysters?-I don't deal in them. + +1002. You were engaged in the herring fishery. Was there any +special complaint made in the memorial, or have you any special +complaint to make just now, as to that fishery?-The herring +fishery is carried on under the same restrictions as the ling, + +1003. You are bound to hand over the fish to Messrs. Hay, and +they are entered into the account the same as the others?-Yes. + +1004. When you prepared that petition some years ago, did you +land your herring on the island, or were they handed in to some +vessel?-There were two or three years about that time when a +vessel came to Hamnavoe, and we measured them on board of her. +When she was full, we had to measure them on shore. + +1005. Who sent that vessel?-It was a man who came with a +vessel from Hamburg for herrings, and he bought them from +Messrs. Hay. + +1006. Did the man pay you for the fish?-No; we had nothing to +do with him, so far as the paying was concerned. + +1007. Was it one of the grievances set forth in the petition, that +you were paid in goods for these herrings, while the Wick +fishermen got a larger price in cash?-I don't remember about +that. + +1008. You say you signed the obligation about eight years ago. +Have you ever endeavoured or wished to break through it and to +obtain your liberty?-No. + +1009. You have never attempted that?-No. + +1010. Does that obligation bind your family as well as yourself?- +Yes, if they like to do it. + +1011. But in the obligation itself did you become bound that your +sons as well as yourself should fish for Messrs. Hay?-Yes. + +1012. Have had to pay liberty money for any of your sons?-Yes; I +had to pay it for one of my sons-Robert Smith. He was two years +away. One year he was with Mr. Harrison, and the year following +he was with Mr. Garriock, and I paid liberty money in these years +to Messrs. Hay on his account. + +1013. How long ago was that?-I think it was three years ago. + +1014. Then the obligation to fish applied to the Faroe fishing as +well as to the home fishing?-Yes; to the whole fishings. + +1015. Have you ever had to pay liberty money for your sons +leaving the home fishing and going to some other employment?- +No; they never followed the home fishing. They would not go to +it. + +1016. Then, if a man does not choose to go to the home fishing at +all, he is free?-Yes. + +1017. But if a man does go to the home fishing he is to fish for the +landlord?-Yes, if he be a tenant. + +1018. But he need not fish unless he likes?-No; it is only if he +does fish, and if he is a person holding land, that he must fish for +Messrs. Hay. + +1019. Or if he is the son of a landholder, and living in his father's +house?-Yes. + +1020. I believe the liberty money amounts to 20s.?-Yes. + +1021. When is it paid?-When we settle. + +1022. Is it deducted from the amount due?-Yes. + +1023. Do you know of any cases where that liberty money has +been paid back by Messrs, Hay?-Yes. + +1024. Was it paid back to you?-Yes; it was paid back to me for +my son. + +1025. Then the money you mentioned just now as having been +paid by you for your son was paid back to you?-Yes; it was paid +back to me afterwards. + +1026. How long afterwards?-I think about a year and a half. + +1027. Did you ask for it to be paid back?-Yes; I asked it over and +over again before I got it. I think I asked for it two or three times, +if I remember right. + +1028. Did they give it back to you as a favour?-Yes. + +1029. Was the amount of liberty money fixed in the obligation +which you signed?-Yes. + +1030. Did you get a copy of that obligation?-No. + +1031. Have you been spoken to about that obligation since you +signed it, and told that it was in force?-Never, except when they +charged liberty money. I objected to pay it; and their answer was, +that I had signed an obligation to pay it, and therefore that I was +obliged to do so. + +1032. Do you know any one else who has paid liberty money +within the last year or two?-Yes; Andrew Laurenson paid it for +his brother. + +1033. Is Laurenson here?-No. + +1034. Why did he have to pay it for his brother?-Because I think +the father was not able, and Andrew had just to pay it. + +1035. Were both the Laurensons living with their father?-No, +Andrew was not living with him; he was married, and had gone +away. But Robert was living with his father; and Andrew paid the +money for the brother, because his father could not. + +1036. Has there been any other case?-Yes; Peter Henry paid +liberty money for himself about three years ago. + +1037. Was Laurenson's money paid back?-Yes. + +1038. After he had asked it?-I don't know if he asked it, but I +know that it was paid back. + +1039. Was Henry's paid back?-I don't know. + +1040. Did these cases all occur about the same year?-Yes, all +about the same time. + +1041. Is it the case that at time you had several bad fishing +seasons?-Yes. + +1042. And is it the case that at that time Messrs. Hay were largely +in advance to the fishermen in Burra?-Yes; for some years they +were largely in advance. + +1043. Did they want to get the young men to go to the Faroe +fishing in order to get their parents out of debt: did they assign that +as a reason for charging liberty money?-Yes, sometimes they did. + +1044. Did they tell you, or did you understand, that these fines +were required in order to induce the young men to go to the Faroe +fishing, and to pay off the debt due by their parents?-Yes, I +understood that. + +1045. Were you told that by Messrs. Hay at the time?-Yes. + +1046. Are these the only cases in which such fines have been +exacted, within your knowledge?-Yes. + +1047. Have all the landholders since that time fished for Messrs. +Hay, to your knowledge?-Yes; they have all fished for them at +the home fishing. + +1048. And at the Faroe fishing too?-There are very few of the +landholders who go to the Faroe fishing. + +1049. Are there many men in Burra who go to the Faroe fishing?- +Yes, a considerable number. + +1050. But these are the younger men?-Yes; generally they are. + +1051. And they are not bound in any way?-No, are not now. + +1052. Do they generally ship with the Messrs. Hay?-Some of +them do, and some do not. It is not general thing with them to do +so. + +1053. They can do as they like?-Yes. + +1054. Can your sons do as they like in that matter, and ship with +any person they please?-Yes. + +1055. Do they go to the Faroe fishing?-Yes. + +1056. And you are not asked to pay liberty money for them +now?-No. + +1057. Is that because Messrs. Hay have ceased to require payment +of liberty money?-Yes; they thought the thing was not legal, and +they have given it up. + +1058. Are your sons living in your house still?-One of them is, +but the other one is married, and is away from me. + +1059. And the one who is living with you goes to the Faroe +fishing?-Yes. + +1060. Have you ever cured fish for yourself?-No. + +1061. Then you don't know from your own experience, [Page 22] +whether you would have a larger profit if you did cure them on +your own account?-No; not from my own experience. + +1062. Except when you signed the document you have mentioned, +was there any occasion on which you were told by any of the firm +of Hay & Co. that you were bound to fish for them only?-I don't +remember any other time. + + +Lerwick, January 2, 1872, THOMAS CHRISTIE, examined. + +1063. You are a fisherman in Burra, and a tenant under Messrs. +Hay?-Yes. + +1064. You have been present during the examination of the two +preceding witnesses?-Yes. + +1065. Do you concur with them as to the most of the facts which +they have stated?-Yes. + +1066. Did you sign the obligation which has been spoken to?-I +signed it once, about eight years ago. + +1067. Did you do so willingly, or did you refuse first?-I did so +willingly. + +1068. Had you not received warning to leave your ground first?- +No, I don't think it. + +1069. Were you ever told that you would have to leave your +ground if you did not sign it?-Yes; I suppose I was. + +1070. Have you complied ever since with that obligation to fish for +Hay & Co.?-Yes. + +1071. You did not try to break it in any way?-No. + +1072. Have you ever had to pay liberty money for yourself or any +of your children?-No. + +1073. Have you cured fish for yourself?-No. + +1074. Is it your opinion, as well as that of the other witnesses, that +you would make a larger profit if you cured your own fish?-I +think we would. + +1075. Can you give me any reason for supposing that?-No; no +particular reason, because I never cured them. + +1076. But you know that is the general belief?-Yes. + +1077. Have you any knitters in your family?-Yes. + +1078. The letter you have signed says that they are invariably paid +in goods, both for the goods they sell, and also for their wages +when engaged to knit for the hosiery dealers: is that so?-Yes. + +1079. Have you ever sold any articles for your daughters?-Yes. + +1080. Do you sometimes take the goods they knit the shops and +sell them for them?-Yes. + +1081. Where have you taken them to?-To Linklater. + +1082. Do you keep an account with him?-No. + +1083. You just take the article in and sell it?-Yes, and get what +they want for it. + +1084. Do your daughters knit with their own wool?-No, they knit +with wool supplied by Mr. Linklater. + +1085. Is it through you that the dealing generally takes place?- +No; not through me. + +1086. Your daughters generally manage it themselves?-Yes. + +1087. But you have brought in articles which they have knitted?- +Yes; on one or two occasions. + +1088. On these occasions what took place?-I was just ordered to +get some things from the shop, and I got them. + +1089. Did you ever ask for money?-No, they never expected to +get money, they never asked for it. + +1090. You were told the articles that you were to bring home, and + the value that was to be put upon the shawls?-Yes. + +1091. Did you not leave the fixing of the price to the merchant?- +He knew the price himself. It was marked down in the book, what +I brought in for them was added to the account. + +1092. Do your daughters have a book?-No; but the merchant +enters these things in his own book. + +1093. Then they have an account with Mr. Linklater-which is +kept in his book?-Yes. + +1094. What is the name of your daughter?-Elizabeth Christie. + +1095. Is the account in Mr. Linklater's book kept in her name?- +Yes. + +1096. You say that you buy your goods until the end of the year +from your landlord's shop: is it from the shop at Scalloway or in +Lerwick that you generally buy?-I buy from both places. + +1097. Is there an account in your name in both shops?-Yes; I can +go to any place I like. + +1098. And you get the same class of goods at both?-I don't think +there is much difference. + +1099. Do you get every kind of goods at both shops?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 2, 1872, CHARLES SINCLAIR, examined. + +1100. You are a fisherman in Burra?-Yes. + +1101. Do you hold any land there?-No, I have only a room, and +pay rent for it, in an old mansion-house on the island. + +1102. To whom do you pay rent?-To Messrs. Hay. + +1103. How do you make your living?-By fishing, and sometimes +by going as master of a small coasting vessel. + +1104. Does that vessel belong to you?-No; I sometimes get +employment from the owners in Lerwick,-from Mr. Leask, or +Messrs. Hay, or others. + +1105. You have not a permanent employment as master?-No, but +I am competent for taking charge of a vessel at times. + +1106. Is that a vessel employed in the fishing trade?-Yes, and +sometimes in the coasting trade, taking cured fish to any port in +England or Scotland. + +1107. You have been present during the examination of the +previous witnesses during the day?-Yes. + +1108. Do you concur generally in what they have stated?-So far +as I can remember it, I do. + +1109. Is there anything additional you want to say?-Yes. Our +wishes are to have our liberty to fish for whoever we please, and to +make the best we can of our fish. + +1110. But you are not bound in any way?-I am bound to fish for +Messrs. Hay in the long-line and herring fishing in the island. + +1111. Did you sign any obligation-to fish for Messrs. Hay only?- +No. + +1112. Then in what way are you bound?-By our father signing an +obligation. + +1113. Are you the son of a Burra man?-Yes. + +1114. Did your father sign the obligation eight years ago?-Yes. + +1115. What reason have you to suppose that binds you to fish?- +My father told me when he came home, that neither he nor his +sons were to be allowed to fish to any other men than Messrs. Hay. + +1116. Is it eight years since he told you that-Yes. + +1117. Is your father alive?-Yes, he is here. His name is John +Sinclair. + +1118. Have you attempted or wished to fish for any other than +Messrs. Hay?-Yes; in the Faroe fishing, but nowhere else. + +1119. Was there any objection taken to your doing so?-No; +because at the time when I broke off from Messrs. Hay they could +not suit me with a vessel. I was competent to take charge of a +vessel, and they had none to give me, and for that reason they let +me off. + +1120. Do you go in for the home fishing?-Sometimes. + +1121. Have you fished for any other than Messrs. Hay in that +fishing?-No, not in the long-line fishing. + +1122. Have you proposed to do so?-No. + +1123. Then you have never been interfered with in any way +yourself?-No, not further than that. Occasionally I have had to +fish a little for them when I was not engaged at anything else. + +[Page 23] + +1124. How had you to fish to them?-To support myself. + +1125. But if you had chosen, you might have engaged with any +other merchant than Messrs. Hay?-No, not for the home fishing. + +1126. Why do you say that?-Because we were made to +understand that we would not be allowed to do so. + +1127. You say that your only reason for understanding that, was +what your father had told you. What would have been the result to +you if you had done it?-The result would have been, that my +father would have been turned out on my account. + +1128. Is that what you were afraid of?-Yes. + +1129. And is that the reason why you never tried to get engaged +with any other merchant?-Yes. + +1130. Had you ever to pay liberty money?-No. + +1131. Had your father ever to pay liberty money for you or any of +his sons?-I believe he had to pay for one who died. + +1132. Do you know that yourself?-I am confident of it, from +having heard about it. + +1133. Was that when you were young?-Yes. + +1134. But that was a good many years ago?-Yes. I cannot +remember the time. + +1135. Is that all you wish to say?-I remember in my early years, +when I was a young fellow, and commenced to fish along with my +father, we went chiefly to the herring fishing, and we had to catch +herring for Messrs. Hay at a very low price. We had a certain +allowance of meal, which I suppose would amount to about +twenty-four pounds for seven or eight days; and it was hardly fit to +sustain a family of about eight people. My father had to find boats +and nets with which to proceed to the fishing, and that put him into +debt; and about four years ago I and my brothers had to come good +for that debt. + +1136. Was that an old debt which your father had contracted?-It +was a debt accumulated chiefly in the herring fishing. + +1137. When was it begun to be incurred?-About fifteen or +sixteen years ago. + +1138. Had the debt increased, or did it merely stand over?-It was +not regular; it sometimes rose and sometimes fell. + +1139. But your father was constantly in debt up to four years +ago?-Yes, so far as I can remember. + +1140. Was that debt made out by the annual accountings which we +have heard about to-day? Was it a debt in the books of Messrs. +Hay for provisions supplied at the store?-Yes, and for fishing +materials. + +1141. Was it for a boat also?-It was chiefly for a new boat and +nets. He purchased a new boat, which put him further down than +ever. + +1142. Was it purchased about fifteen or twenty years ago?-No; it +is perhaps ten or twelve years ago. + +1143. And you say that about four years ago this debt became so +large that you and your brother had to become bound for it?-Yes. + +1144. How did that happen?-Because they wrote out, or +pretended to write out, what might be called a travelling-ticket, or +a warning to remove off the land. + +1145. At what term?-Was it at Martinmas?-As far as I recollect, +it was. + +1146. Some people have taken special objection to the short +Martinmas warning. Do you concur in that objection?-Yes. It is +only forty days in some cases. + +1147. And your father got that warning?-Yes. + +1148. How much was he in debt at that time?-Perhaps from £9 to +£12. I and my brother Robert had to pay £6, and I believe that was +the half of it. + +1149. Did you sign any document obliging you pay that money?- +No. + +1150. Then how did you become bound?-On account of my +father being warned out. + +1151. But in what way did you become bound? Did you merely +promise by word of mouth that you would pay it?-Yes; we had to +become good for it. + +1152. But you did not sign any agreement?-No; we handed over +the money-the sum of £6. + +1153. Was that money which you had earned?-Yes. + +1154. Was it due to you in your account with Messrs. Hay?-No; I +had it in my pocket. I had saved it in other employments. + +1155. Then you had no difficulty in getting money for your wages +when you wanted it? You were not obliged to take your wages in +goods?-No, not our wages; but we have to take the proceeds of +our fishing in that way, to a certain extent. They will give us +part of that in goods. + +1156. Is that the proceeds of the Faroe fishing?-No; of the home +fishing. + +1157. In the Faroe fishing, what arrangement do you make about +the payment of your share?-We can get it all in money if we +choose to have it. + +1158. You have been at the Faroe fishing?-Yes. + +1159. There is no difficulty in that fishing in getting cash at the +end of the season?-No; not at the settling times, which take place +once a year. + +1160. How do you do about your supplies for the Faroe fishing?- +We generally apply for them to the merchant we fish for. + +1161. And you get a supply from him of provisions, clothing, +fishing material, and everything you require?-Yes. + +1162. That is marked down against you in the book, and deducted +from the price of your fish at the end of the season?-Yes. + +1163. Is the price for these fish fixed only at settling time?-Yes. + +1164. Who does the boat belong to in which you go to the Faroe +fishing?-I have been at that fishing for different owners. + +1165. Does the boat always belong to the merchant, or does it +sometimes belong to the men themselves?-No; it always belongs +to the merchant. + +1166. But the whole material required for that fishing, except the +boat, belongs to the men?-Yes; and it is purchased by them from +the shipowner. We have to find our hooks and lines and +provisions. That is all we have to find, the owner finds the rest. + +1167. Are you a married man?-Yes, I have a wife and two +children. + +1168. How are your family supported during your absence at the +Faroe fishing? Where do they get their supplies?-They can get +them in the owner's store if they require them, but, for myself, I do +not require to go there. I can get them at any place I please. + +1169. Is it a common thing for the other men who go to the Faroe +fishing, to buy their goods at the owners store?-When they don't +have money to buy them at other places, they go there for them. + +1170. But is that a common thing?-I cannot say exactly. I +suppose it is not uncommon. + +1171. Does it often happen that a man employed in the Faroe +fishing finds an account against him in the owner's store for +provisions at settling time as large as the amount which he has to +receive for his fishing?-I am not acquainted with that myself. + +1172. When you are away at the Faroe fishing, and your family +have occasion for money, is there any difficulty in getting it from +the parties who employ you?-Not if they know we have money to +get. If we have a balance in our favour, they are not against giving +it. + +1173. How long are you generally absent at that fishing?- +Sometimes six months, sometimes seven, and sometimes as low as +three months. + +1174. Suppose you had been away from home for two or three +months, there would certainly be two or three months take of fish, +if it was a middling season, for which money would be due to +you?-Yes. + +1175. Would your wife at home be able to get an advance of +money from the merchant in that case, if she required it for the +support of the family?-Yes. + +1176. There is no difficulty made about that?-No. + +1177. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a man's wife to get +such advances of money during his absence-Yes, they would get +a small sum of money, but the merchant would prefer them to take +goods. + +[Page 24] + +1178. If she comes for the money is she ever told to take it in +goods; or is there any understanding that she is to take it in +goods?-I cannot answer that, because I am not acquainted with +what goes on while I am away. I can only speak to what has come +within my own experience. + + +Lerwick, January 2, 1872, GILBERT GOODLAD, examined. + +1179. You are a fisherman in Burra, and you hold land there under +Messrs. Hay?-Yes. + +1180. You have been present during the examination of the +previous witnesses?-Yes. + +1181. Do you agree with most of what Williamson and Smith have +said?-Yes. + +1182. Is it all correct?-Yes; all correct. + +1183. You generally go to the Faroe fishing?-I do. + +1184. How long may you be absent at that fishing?-It just +depends upon the season: sometimes we may be away for perhaps +four months. We are generally home once in the middle of the +time. We are sometimes we may be away longer than four +months, sometimes not so long ago. + +1185. What merchants have you generally engaged with?-I have +engaged with a great many merchants in Shetland. + +1186. There has been no objection made to your going with any +merchant you liked?-No. + +1187. Messrs. Hay have not objected to that?-No. They might +not have been requiring me when I was going, and therefore I +could go where I liked. + +1188. When you go there, how do you arrange for your family to +be supplied during your absence?-The merchant supplies them +during my absence. + +1189. What merchant?-Whatever owner I am out for. + +1190. When your wife wants supplies, does she go to his shop for +them?-Yes. + +1191. If she wants money, does she ask it from him too?-She +may, but sometimes she has been refused it. They are not willing +to give money. If they think we are doing well at the fishing, they +will advance her a little money; but if they think we are not +succeeding well, they will not give it, because they would think +then that we might come to be in their debt. + +1192. Is there any communication with the vessels when they are +at the fishing?-Yes. Some of the vessels may go home and come +back again, or an accident may occur on board of one of them, and +she may go home and give an account of how the fishing is going +on. They may also send letters from Faroe, by Denmark, to +Shetland; so that there are several ways of communicating from +there to here. + +1193. Who are some of the parties with whom you have shipped +for the Faroe fishing?-I have been out for Mr. Garriock in +Reawick, Mr. Garriock in Lerwick, Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay. + +1194. But, whoever you go out for, your wife generally goes to +their shop for her supplies?-She is obliged to go there, if we have +no other means to live on. + +1195. Can you tell me one occasion on which she went and was +refused money, or on which you have asked them to give her +money and it has been refused?-I am not quite sure that there has +been any occasion of that kind, because we know that if we are not +fishing well, we need not ask for money. + +1196. Have you been told that by any of the shopkeepers?-I have +seen it, and experienced it. + +1197. When, and how?-Even during the last season with the +Faroe fishing, there were some of the merchants who would not +make an advance to the people when they required it. + +1198. Did they require to get an advance of money?-They might +try to live on through the season without money, and they might +have done it if they could only have got some meal and some +bread to live upon. + +1199. Do you mean that the people at the fishing had to do so?- +No; the people whom they left at home got so little that they could +hardly subsist upon it, and they had to try some other means in +order to enable them to live. + +1200. What other means had they?-They might have a cow or +two, and make butter, and sell the milk, and buy a little meal with +that. + +1201. Do any of the members of your family knit?-I have two +daughters who knit + +1202. Do they get money for that knitting?-Not one cent. + +1203. Have you sold the hosiery work for them?-I never did. +They always manage these matters for themselves. + +1204. Have you ever represented their case to the merchants, and +said that they ought to pay them in cash?-No. It is no use saying +anything of the kind, because the merchants would not give them +money. There is one thing I should like to say with regard to the +Faroe fishing. We come into the town of Lerwick, or any other +port in Shetland where the vessels happen be fitting out, and +commence to fit the vessels so as to have them ready for sea. We +have to go on board, and have only an allowance of one pound of +bread a day for every day we are on board the vessel. We have +nothing else to live on during the time we are fitting out the +vessels, and if we are absent on any account whatever during the +time the vessels are being fitted out they charge 2s., 6d. per day for +that, in order to put a man in our place. + +1205. Is not that merely a part of your bargain with the merchants +for whom you engage to fish?-It is part of the bargain, but it is a +very bad part. + +1206. If you did not choose to make a bargain of that kind, you +would not be bound to carry it out?-That is true; but the poor +people here cannot strike as they do in England: because they are +so poor, the merchants can just do as they please with them. + +1207. Did you sign the obligation eight years ago which has been +spoken to by the previous witnesses?-No. + +1208. Do you go in for the home fishing at all?-Yes; I am a +fisherman in the Burra Isles. + +1209. Do you consider yourself bound to fish only for Messrs. Hay +in the home fishing?-I do. + +1210. Have you ever been told so by Messrs. Hay?-Yes, I have +been told that; and there was a document made out, but I did not +sign it. I have got no notice about the matter since then, because +we knew that we had to carry on the fishing in the same way. + +1211. Have you ever paid liberty money?-No, I never had +anybody to pay it for, and I never paid for myself. + +1212. Have you ever asked to have the price of your fish fixed at +the beginning of the season?-No. + +1213. Is there not a feeling among the men, that that would be a +better mode of dealing than the present?-We durst not go in for +anything of the kind. + +1214. Would it not be a better plan in the Faroe fishing?-We +could not do anything of the kind there, because the merchants +don't know what the price of the fish will be until they can be sold. +The market may rise. + +1215. You take your chance of the markets there-Yes; whatever +chance the merchant gets, we get too. We run shares with the +merchants in that fishing. + +1216. You are not paid at so much per cwt.?-No; we have shares. +One half of the fish that are brought in by the vessel belongs to the +crew, and the other half belongs to the owners. + +1217. Then you are not serving for wages there at all?-No; they +give us wages if we have to go to Iceland in the fall of the year but +they give no wages for the summer fishing at Faroe. It is just a +partnership that is made up for the fish that are caught. + +1218. Is there anything further you wish to say?-No; I think +everything which we have to say has been pretty well said by the +other men. + +1219. Are all the thirteen men here who signed the letter to me +about Burra?-Yes. + +1220. Have any of them anything further to say?-[No answer.] + +<Adjourned>. + +[Page 25] + +Lerwick: Wednesday, January 3, 1872. +<Present>-Mr Guthrie. + + +JOHN LEASK, examined. + +1221. You are a fisherman at Channerwick, parish of Sandwick?- +I am. + +1222. You came here yesterday for the purpose making some +statement: what was it about?-I wanted to make some statement +about how I have been treated three years back, particularly. + +1223. Are you a tenant of land?-Yes. + +1224. Are you a yearly tenant?-Yes. + +1225. Under whom?-Under Mr. Robert Bruce of Simbister. + +1226. Do you pay your rent to him?-We pay our rent to Mr. +William Irvine, the factor. + +1227. Is that Mr. Irvine of Hay & Co.?-Yes. + +1228. What quantity of land do you hold?-It is rather more than +what are called two merks and about a third. + +1229. How much is that in acres?-I don't know. It is a Danish +measurement. + +1230. How much rent do you pay for that?-£4, 2s. 10d. + +1231. Do you also pay taxes and poor-rates in addition?-No; that +is included in the sum I have mentioned. + +1232. What did you come to complain about?-About the way we +were dealt with when we were under tack for seventeen years to +Mr. Robert Mouat. He got bankrupt in the latter end. + +1233. How long is it since he became bankrupt?-It was only last +year, and he went away then. + +1234. Before that, had he a tack of the whole lands of Mr. Bruce in +that part of the country?-He had Levenwick, Channerwick and +Coningsburgh in tack. + +1235. Had you to pay your rent to him?-Yes. + +1236. He was what is called a middle-man in Shetland?-Yes; a +middle-man or tacksmaster. The Shetland name for it is +tacksmaster. + +1237. You were under tack to him, and you paid the same rent to +him that you have mentioned just now?-Yes, I suppose so, but I +don't remember what rent I paid to him, for I never got my rent +from him. + +1238. How do you mean?-Because he was the tacksman, and he +took what rent he liked. + +1239. Do you mean to say that you did not pay £4, 2s. 10d. to him +the same as you are doing now?-I paid him more. + +1240. When was your rent fixed at £4, 2s. 10d.?-This year. + +1241. What was your rent before?-I cannot tell what it was under +Mouat, for I never heard what it was. He never told me what my +rent was; it was just what he liked to take. But after Mouat left, +Mr. Bruce gave us our liberty. We have had our liberty for the +past year, and we go now and pay our rent to the factor, and he has +told us what our rent is. + +1242. Did you fish for Mouat when he was there?-I was bound +by the proprietor to do so. + +1243. Had you signed any agreement to do that?-I was never +called upon to sign any agreement, but Mouat told me that his +agreement with the proprietor was that I was bound to fish for +him; and he told me that if I did not fish for him, he had power to +warn me out of the place where I lived. + +1244. When did he tell you that?-He told me that at the +commencement of the tack, seventeen years ago. + +1245. Had you been in the same ground before that time?-Yes. + +1246. Who did you hold from at that time?-The tacksman before +Mouat was Mr. Spence, Lerwick. He collected the rents for Mr. +Bruce. + +1247. Was he the tacksman or only a factor?-He was a lawyer or +tacksman, taking up the money for Mr. Bruce. + +1248. Were you bound then to fish for any particular individual?- +We were always bound. + +1249. After Mouat told you that you must fish for him, did you +ever fish for any one else during the whole of these seventeen +years?-No. + +1250. Why did you not sell your fish to any one else?-For fear of +being warned off the property where was living; and I had +nowhere else to go to, because I was a poor man. + +1251. Is it the home fishing you are now speaking of?-Yes, the +home or ling fishing; but I have been in the whale fishery, and in +the straits fishery, and the Faroe fishery, as well as in the home +fishery. + +1252. But you were not at these other fishings for Mouat?-No; I +was at home when I fished for him. + +1253. Could you engage with any one you pleased for the whale +fishing or the Faroe fishing?-Yes. + +1254. You have no complaint to make about that-No; I could go +to any one I liked, only I was bound under tack to Mouat. + +1255. When you fished for Mouat, did you deliver your fish to his +people?-Yes. + +1256. Where?-At Levenwick. + +1257. Did you deliver them green or dry?-Green. + +1258. How were you paid for them?-We were just paid as he +liked to pay us. He gave us just what he chose. + +1259. When were you paid for them?-Sometimes in March, +sometimes about the New Year, or just when he chose to make +arrangements for paying us. + +1260. Did he pay you then for all the fish of the previous +season?-Yes. + +1261. At what time in the season did you begin to fish?-We +began in the spring-generally in the month of May. + +1262. And all the fish which you caught from May down to next +winter were paid for in January or February or March?-Yes; or at +any time, just as he chose to make arrangements for paying. + +1263. Did you make a bargain about the price at the beginning of +the season?-No. + +1264. Did you make your bargain when you delivered your fish to +him?-No. + +1265. When did you fix the price which you were to get?-He +fixed the price when he paid us. + +1266. Did you ever object to the price which he fixed?-Many a +time. + +1267. You made that objection at settling day?-Yes. + +1268. What did he when you asked for a larger price?-He told us +that we should have no more, and that we were in duty bound to +fish for him. + +1269. Had Mouat a shop?-Yes; his shop was at the Moul of +Channerwick, close to my house. + +1270. Are there many fishermen living close by there?-There are +a good many, and almost all men are fishermen. + +1271. Do they live near that shop?-Yes. + +1272. How many houses may be there, or about that +neighbourhood?-I think there are about nineteen of them close +together. + +1273. Are there many more houses at a little distance?-There are +no more at that particular place, but in the town of Levenwick, +about a mile to the south of the Moul, there are more. + +1274. Is there another shop there?-No. + +1275. Do the Levenwick people come to the Channerwick shop?- +Yes. + +1276. What did you get in Mouat's shop?-We got the goods he +pleased to give us. + +1277. Did you get the goods you wanted?-No; we did not get the +goods we wanted. We could just get the goods he had. + +1278. What did you get?-We sometimes got a [Page 26] little tea +and cotton and anything we asked for that was there. If it was +there for us to get it was very well; but if it was not there, we had +to walk home without, and we could get no money to buy it with. + +1279. How could you get no money?-Because he would not give +it to us on any consideration at all. + +1280. Did you often ask for?-Every year and every time. + +1281. What do you mean by every time?-Every time we came to +that store when we thought his goods were not a bargain for us to +take we asked for some money to go somewhere else and get a +better bargain; but of course we were denied it. We could get +none. + +1282. Did you never get an advance of money from the time the +fishing began, until settling time?-No. + +1283. Did you ever get any money from Mouat during the whole +seventeen years you fished for him?-No. + +1284. Did you not get money if there was, a balance over at +settling time?-No. + +1285. Do you swear that?-Yes, I do. + +1286. Supposing that at the time of settling there was a balance +due to you after paying your account at the shop and your rent did +you not get, that in money?-No. I had to take it in goods or else +go without. + +1287. Were you told that you must take it in goods?-Yes; I could +get no money. + +1288. Did you generally take goods there and then or did you get +them afterwards just as you wanted them?-Sometimes I got them +as I wanted them and at other times I might take a little goods +expecting that I would perhaps get a shilling of money along with +them as I was in necessity for it; but I could not get any. + +1289. Did you expect that you might get a shilling for the +goods?-As I had a balance due I expected that I might get a +shilling in money; and I did not take all the goods at one time but I +took a little now when I required them, and a little the next time; +and always when I came to the store I asked if I could not get a +shilling in money because goods could not serve me every time. + +1290. Did you sell the goods which you got from the shop in order +to raise a little money?-Sometimes. + +1291. Did you sell them to your neighbours?-I could not sell +them to my neighbours, because they were in the same state as I +was myself. + +1292. Where did you sell them?-Sometimes we would take a +little and fall in with a boy or a laddie, who would buy a bit of +cloth from us, or the like of that, at a reduced price and thus help +us to get a few shillings. + +1293. To what boys or lads did you sell these goods?-Just to any +lad that would buy them. Perhaps my own lad would be going +elsewhere, such as to the sea, where he would be paid by a fee; +and sometimes I would get a bit of goods and give it to my boy, +and he would pay me for it with a few shillings out of his fee and +that would serve my ends for the time. + +1294. Had you anything to sell off your farm?-Yes. + +1295. You sold a beast now and then?-Yes; but Mouat took the +whole of them. + +1296. Did he buy your beasts too?-Yes. + +1297. Did you not have liberty to sell them to other people?-No, +we had no liberty at all; because he said we were under the same +obligation with regard to beasts and eggs and all the produce of +our farms as we were under with regard to the fish, and therefore, +if he got the one, he compelled us to give him the other too. + +1298. When did he tell you that about the beasts and the eggs?- +He told us about it in the same year that he took the tack. + +1299. Did you ever try to sell them to another?-Yes, I tried that +sometimes. + +1300. To whom did you try to sell them?-To any one who came +round asking for such things; but I knew that if I did such a thing, +and Mouat came to know about it, I must be prepared to take to +my heels and fly. + +1301. Did you ever actually sell any of the produce of your farm +to another than Mouat?-I never sold any, except one little horse; +and I sold it when I was in starvation for meal. That was towards +the end of Mouat's tack. + +1302. How long ago was it?-I think it is two years past. + +1303. Who did you sell it to?-I sold it to a man in the +neighbourhood of Quarff. + +1304. What was his name?-Andrew Jamieson, he lives at Quarff +now. + +1305. What did you get for it?-I got £2; it was a small beast + +1306. Did Mouat know that you had sold that beast to +Jamieson?-Yes, and as soon as he heard about it he sent for me, +and told me what he was determined to do, and that I might +prepare myself for going. + +1307. How long was that before he failed?-I think I only paid +one year after that. + +1308. Do you mean that there was only one settlement with him +after that?-Yes. + +1309. When you were making your settlements, I suppose it was +the previous Whitsunday and Martinmas rents that you settled for +at each?-Yes. + +1310. How long would it be before the settlement that you sold the +horse?-I sold it after the settlement for the year. Mouat knew +that I had a pony to sell and he wanted me to give it to him. I said +that I would give him the pony as he told me I was bound to do it +but he must bring me some meal, because it was a very bad +season, and I could not sow down my ground. He would not bring +me any meal and therefore I resolved that, whatever might happen +to me whether I should be put out or not, I would sell my animal +and procure a living for my house; and I did so. + +1311. At what time of the year did you sell it?-In March. + +1312. That would be shortly after the settlement?-Yes. + +1313. How long was it after that when Mouat told you that you +must leave?-Just about eight days-as soon as he heard it. + +1314. But he did not turn you off?-No. + +1315. Could he not have turned you off at the following +Whitsunday term?-Yes; he could have turned me off then. + +1316. But he did not do it?-No; because I went to the proprietor, +Mr. Bruce, and told him what I had done, and what Mouat was +going to do to me. I don't know what took place between Mr. +Bruce and Mouat about that, but I did not get my warning? + +1317. What did Mr. Bruce say to you about it when you saw +him?-He said very little. I went to him, and also to the factor, +Mr. Irvine, and told him about it. I got no satisfaction at the time, +and therefore I expected I would be turned off; but in the end I was +not put off the ground. + +1318. That would be in the spring of 1870?-Yes. + +1319. Have you paid any rent to Mr. Irvine or to Mr Bruce this +year?-Yes; I paid my rent about six weeks ago. + +1320. To whom do you deliver your fish now?-To any one I +choose. + +1321. Who did you fish for last season?-For Mr. Robertson. + +1322. Where do you get your goods now?-I can get them from +Mr. Robertson. He bought Mouat's store in Channerwick. + +1323. Do you still get your goods there?-Yes. + +1324. Are you bound to get them there?-We are not bound +particularly, because if we ask Mr. Robertson for a few shillings of +money during the time we are fishing for him, we will get them. + +1325. Have you got money from him since he took that store?- +Yes; I got my rent from him this year. + +1326. You mean, that you got money from him to pay your rent?- +Yes. + +1327. Can you mention the name of any person who [Page 27] +was turned away for selling his fish or the produce of his farm to +another merchant than during the seventeen years he held the +tack?-I cannot mention any one particularly, except an old man +who was turned off his farm; but that was a good while ago. His +name was Henry Sinclair, in Levenwick. That occurred about the +beginning of Mouat's tack. + +1328. What was he turned out for?-For an 'outfall' about some +fishing. + +1329. What had he done with his fish?-It was his son that the +thing occurred with. + +1330. What had his son done?-His son got into some sort of +dispute with Mouat about fishing, I can not tell what the cause of it +was exactly; but Mouat gave him warning, and sent him off the +property that he was staying on. Sinclair took a little bit of +scattald outside of the premises, and built a house on it, and he is +living there in a very mean condition. + +1331. Did the other people in the neighbourhood take that case as +a warning?-Yes. + +1332. It frightened them, did it?-Yes; Shetland people are of that +nature, to be frightened by such things-very much to their hurt. + +1333. Do you know of any other person who was turned off in the +same way?-No, I don't remember of any other person being +turned off; because Mouat had no occasion to turn them off. They +did not transgress his law. + +1334. Do you know of any other who was threatened to be turned +off?-Every one of us was threatened, the next man was +threatened, and we were all threatened; so that we were frightened. + +1335. Do you know of any person who sold his fish or his beasts or +eggs to another than Mouat?-Towards the end of his tack, in the +very last fishing when I fished for him, my family and I were in a +state of starvation for want of meal. I have seen me out at sea +under him for two days and part of a third, on two pounds of meal; +and I saw that I must make some effort for a living, Accordingly I +went to another store close by and gave them some of the fish I +had caught, and got some meal from them. If Mouat's tack had +continued longer, I have no doubt I would have been punished for +that; but as it was nearly broken, he did not have it in his power to +do me any hurt. + +1336. Did Mouat speak to you about that?-Yes. There came a +letter from him to the people in the neighbourhood, because some +of them did take their liberty and go away. + +1337. Was that in the last year of his tack?-Yes. + +1338. What kind of letters were these?-They were letters from +Mouat telling them not to prepare their turf or anything to keep +them in their farms, because they had their warning to go. I got a +letter as well as the rest. + +1339. Did it refer to the fish that you had sold to the other +merchant?-Yes. + +1340. Have you got that letter?-I don't know. I don't know what +became of it. I think I burnt it; but there ought to be letters in the +neighbourhood that came from Mouat at that time. + +1341. You said you did not get all the goods you wanted at +Mouat's shop. What were the goods you asked for and could not +get?-I generally asked for little tea. + +1342. Could you not get that?-Yes, I always got that, and I could +get a bit of cotton or anything out of the store that I wanted. + +1343. Did you get the tackle you wanted for your fishing from +him?-Yes. + +1344. And clothes for your family?-I could get clothes for my +family if I asked for them. Sometimes I did get a little clothing +from him. + +1345. Was it principally meal and tea that you got from Mouat?- +Yes; and if his meal had been grain, it would have been good +enough; but as it was, it was not fit for human food. + +1346. You mean that it was not of good quality?-It was not; and +we paid at the dearest rate for it. + +1347. How do you know that?-Because we heard it from the +storeman who sold it to us. Mouat had a storeman in the shop; and +when we got the meal from him, he told us what the price of it +was. + +1348. Had you a pass-book?-We sometimes had a pass-book, but +it was not always taken there; and besides, the storeman was not +very willing to be bothered with it. + +1349. Did you ever ask the price of meal and tea in Lerwick?- +Yes. + +1350. Did you ever buy these articles in Lerwick when you +happened to have some money?-Yes, sometimes when I had any +money I did so; but it was very little money that ever I had, +because where could we get it, when we could get no money at all +for our fishing? + +1351. Have you bought these articles in Lerwick within the last +two or three years?-Yes. + +1352. Did you find the Lerwick meal better and cheaper than what +you got from Mouat?-Yes; the Lerwick meal was grain, but +Mouat's meal was nothing but the refuse of the worst that was +given to us poor fishing slaves. + +1353. Then the complaint you have to make is only about what is +past?-Yes; about how I was treated during the seventeen years I +was under Mouat. I have nothing to say against Mr. Robert Bruce, +or against Mr. Robertson either, with regard to our present +condition. + +1354. You are quite content with your way of dealing at +present?-Yes, I have nothing to say against that, but I am +frightened for the future. + +1355. Have you a boat of your own?-No. + +1356. How do you do for a boat?-I generally arrange with some +fish-curer, and he procures me a boat, and takes a hire for it for the +season. + +1357. How much is the hire?-The hire, as a general rule, has +been £2 for three months, or £3, 10s. for the whole season. + +1358. Is that the way you did with Mr. Robertson last year?-Yes. + +1359. You got goods at his store?-Yes. + +1360. As many goods as you wanted during the fishing season?- +Yes. + +1361. And a little money when you asked for it?-Yes. + +1362. How much money would you get at a time from him?-If I +asked Mr. Robertson for 5s. or 2s. or 6s., I would get it, according +as I asked for it. + +1363. If you asked for the whole of your earnings in money, and +took no goods out of Mr. Robertson's store, is it likely that you +would get the money, so that you could go elsewhere and buy your +goods?-I could not say anything about that, because I did not ask +it. + +1364. You don't wish to go anywhere else?-No; I have not tried +that. + +1365. Do you think the quality of Mr. Robertson's goods is better +than Mouat's?-Oh, Mouat's was nothing at all. + +1366. Have you any daughters in your family who knit?-I have +two. + +1367. Do they knit their own worsted?-Yes; they make worsted +for themselves from the wool of our own sheep. + +1368. Do they go into Lerwick to sell the articles they have +made?-They do. + +1369. To whom do they sell them?-To anybody; they do not knit +for a merchant. They go to any merchant they choose and sell +their shawls, because the worsted with which they are made is +their own. If they go into one store with the shawl, and the price is +not suitable, they go into the next one. + +1370. How are they paid for their shawls?-They are paid in goods +at any store where they can sell them. + +1371. Do they ever ask for money?-They have asked for it often, +but they have never got it; and therefore they say there is no use +asking for it, because they know they won't get it. + +1372. Are you satisfied with the value of the goods they get in +exchange for their shawls?-Sometimes, but not always. +Sometimes the goods which they get [Page 28] in exchange are +not worth the value put upon them. Sometimes they get cottons +for 10d. which are not worth above 8d. + +1373. How do you know that?-Because I see the quality of them. + +1374. Have they told you the price which the merchant has +charged for them?-Yes; and sometimes when my daughters have +knitted a shawl, and it is ready to go to the dresser, there may be +no money in the house to pay for the dressing of it, and it has to be +paid in money. I have known my daughters detained in that way +for some days, until I went to a neighbour and borrowed a shilling +to pay for the dressing of the shawl, or until I could sell something +off the farm; and then, when the shawl was dressed, they went to +the merchant with it and sold it to him for goods, according to the +custom. + +1375. Can your daughters not dress the shawls themselves?-No; +they are shawl-makers, but not shawl-dressers. Their dresser is +Mrs. Arcus, at the Docks. + +1376. Is she the only dresser here?-No; there are other dressers +than her, but she is the only one that my daughters go to. + +1377. Would she not give them credit for the dressing?-No. + +1378. She always requires ready money for that?-Yes; she might +give credit to a girl living in the town, but I live sixteen miles from +Lerwick, and she would not give credit to a party living at that +distance. + +1379. How long have your daughters knitted?-A long time now. +There is one of them twenty-seven years of age, and she has +knitted since she was about eighteen. + +1380. Have you ever seen your daughters bring home money for +their knitting?-No; I never saw a shilling come into our house in +my life which had been got for a shawl. I have paid out several +shillings for the dressing of the shawls but I never saw any money +given in for them. + +1381. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, GAVIN COLVIN, examined. + +1382. Are you a fisherman?-Yes. + +1383. Where?-In Levenwick, Sandwick parish. + +1384. Was the ground there held in tack by Robert Mouat at one +time?-Yes. + +1385. How long have you been there?-I have been there all my +life. + +1386. What was your rent when you held your land under +Mouat?-It was £4, excluding poor-rates and road money. + +1387. That was what you paid to Mouat?-Yes. + +1388. Then you knew what your rent was?-Yes. Of course he +told us what our rent was. + +1389. And it was accounted for at the settlement?-Yes. At the +settlement he summed up our accounts, and told us we were due +so much-so much for rent and so much for goods. + +1390. Had you a pass-book?-No. He did not approve of +pass-books. + +1391. Did you take a note yourself of the goods you got, or did you +just trust to the people at the store?-I trusted to the people at the +store,-to his storekeeper. + +1392. Have you been present during the examination of John +Leask?-Yes. + +1393. You have heard all that he said about the way of dealing, +and about the store, and the quality of the goods?-Yes. + +1394. Do you agree with all that he said?-Yes, I agree more +particularly with what he said about the quality of the goods. The +goods were very inferior at Mouat's store. + +1395. You also agree with him in his description of the way of +dealing with Mouat?-Yes. + +1396. Do you also say that you were compelled to sell all your fish +to him?-Yes. All our earnings, whether by sea or land, were in +duty bound to his store. That was stated to us every year at the +settlement. + +1397. Was that stated to you by Mouat?-Yes. We were told that +we were in duty bound to bring every iota of our produce, whether +by sea or land, to his store. + +1398. Did you ever get any letter threatening you for selling your +fish or your goods to another than Mouat?-I never did, I got no +letter, because I never got far forward as to require that treatment. + +1399. You never got warning to go away?-No, but I was often +told that I would get warning if I persisted in such things. + +1400. Do you know of any of your neighbours having got such +letters?-No; not in my neighbourhood. + +1401. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement made by +John Leask?-Nothing. + +1402. Who were you fishing for last year?-For Mr. Robertson. + +1403. Did you get goods at his store?-Yes. + +1404. They were of better quality than those you got from +Mouat?-Certainly they were. + +1405. Do you get all the money you ask for?-I get what goods I +require, and if I ask for money I will get it. At the settlement, if +there is anything due to me I will get it; and if I don't have money +for my rent, he will help me with it. + +1406. But if you want all your balance in money, will you get it?- +Yes. I got it last time. We are quite satisfied with Mr. Robertson +according to the custom of the country. + +1407. But are you satisfied with the custom of the country?-No; I +don't agree with it. + +1408. What do you want to be changed?-I am not prepared to say +in the meantime. + +1409. Do you want the price of your fish fixed in advance?-We +would require that, I think, for some encouragement to us. + +1410. Could you not get it fixed then, if you asked for it?-We +have asked for it, but we have never got it yet. + +1411. Who did you ask it from?-From the dealers we were +fishing to, all along. + +1412. But you have fished for no dealers except Mouat and +Robertson?-No. + +1413. Have you asked them to fix the price before?-Yes. + +1414. Did they refuse your request?-Yes. They refused to state a +price then, and said they would give the currency of the country at +the end of the season. + +1415. Have you asked them to pay for the fish as they were +delivered?-No; I never asked them for that. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, CATHERINE PETRIE, examined. + +1416. You come from the island of Fetlar?-Yes. + +1417. Where do you live there?-In Aithness. + +1418. Are you a married woman?-No. + +1419. Do you live with your people?-Yes. + +1420. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes. + +1421. What do you knit?-Fine shawls and veils. + +1422. Do you knit these articles with your own wool?-Yes. + +1423. Do you make your own worsted, or buy it?-I buy wool, +and make it. + +1424. Where do you buy it?-From any person who sells it. There +is a Mrs. Smith in Fetlar who sells wool. She lives at a place +called Smithfield. + +1425. Has she a shop?-No. They formerly had shop, but they +don't have one now. She is a widow + +1426. Has she any land?-Yes; she has a small farm. She has +some sheep, and she obliges any person with wool who wants it. + +1427. Do you always buy your wool from her?-[Page 29] +Sometimes from her, and sometimes from any merchant I can get +it from. + +1428. Do you pay for it in money?-Yes; or in work. + +1429. What kind of work?-Any kind of household work that they +have to do. People employ others to do so much work, and give +them wool for it. + +1430. Do you mean work on their farms or ground-Yes; and they +will give them wool in return, because the wool in Fetlar is so +scarce. + +1431. You knit on your own account, and sell what you knit?- +Yes. + +1432. Do you sell it to merchants in Fetlar?-No. There are no +merchants in Fetlar who take it. I come down to Lerwick with it +once a year. + +1433. Do you then bring in with you all that you have knitted +during the season?-Yes. + +1434. How much will you bring?-It is not much; perhaps two or +three shawls. I have had as high as five shawls when I came down. +We have household work to attend to, and we cannot knit so fast +as they do here in Lerwick. + +1435. It is just part of your time that you can give?-Yes. + +1436. Have you come down just now for the purpose of selling the +articles you have knitted?-Yes. + +1437. How many shawls did you bring with you this year?-Two. + +1438. That is less than usual?-Yes. + +1439. How do you get paid for your shawls?-I get goods out of +the shop. + +1440. Does the merchant fix the price 'for the shawl' when you +take it in?-Yes. + +1441. How much did you get for the two you brought down this +time?-16s. for one, and 17s. for the other; and I had one +belonging to another person that I got 19s. for. + +1442. Who was the merchant that you sold them to?-Mr. +Sinclair. + +1443. What did you get for them?-Goods. + +1444. Did you ask for money?-I did not ask for money, because it +has been understood for many years back that they would not give +any, and goods are marked on the paper that we get. When I come +down I employ a person to dress the shawls, and then that person +sells them for me in the shop, and I get back a note from her, +stating the amount in goods that I am to get for them. I understand +not to ask for money, because the thing is always in that form. + +1445. When you get the note, do you hand it back at the shop and +get the goods in return?-Yes. + +1446. Have you got any of these notes?-No; I have got the goods +for them, and I was preparing to return to Fetlar when I was +summoned here. + +1447. Is the note printed or written?-It is all written. + +1448. Who is the dresser that you employ?-A Miss Robertson. I +don't know where she lives. The woman I live with when in +Lerwick-Mrs. Park, Charlotte Place-went with her when she +sold the shawls. + +1449. Do you never go to the shop and sell your own shawls?- +Sometimes I do; but not this time. + +1450. Did you ever go to the shop to sell your shawls, and ask to +be paid in money?-No; because I understood I would get no +money. + +1451. Did you ever get any part of the balance in money?-None. + +1452. What do you get in goods?-Any kind of soft goods which I +want, and which are in the shop. If the goods I want are not in the +shop, then they would say that they did not have them; and I would +have to take something else. + +1453. Is it just soft goods that are in the shop?-Yes. + +1454. Not provisions?-No; not provisions. + +1455. Is there any tea?-No. + +1456. You go to the shop yourself for your goods, and hand your +line in payment for them?-Yes. + +1457. Could you the same goods in Fetlar?-I could get the goods +in Fetlar if I had money to give for them; but I could not get money +for shawls or veils in Fetlar. + +1458. But if you had the money, could you get the goods as good +and cheap in Fetlar as in Lerwick?-Yes; they are very cheap in +Fetlar. Messrs. Hay Co. have a shop there. + +1459. And you think you could get your goods as good and cheap +there as you can in Lerwick?-Yes. + +1460. And of course you would not have to carry them back with +you?-No. + +1461. Are there many people in Fetlar who knit the same way as +you do, and come in to Lerwick to sell their shawls?-Yes; there +are a good many people who knit in the same way that I do, and +come down here with their shawls, because there is no other way +of disposing of them. + +1462. Do they get their payment in the same way?-So far as I +know, they do. + +1463. Do they always get goods for their lines when they come +down?-Yes. + +1464. Will they not get a line to come down at another time for the +goods?-No; I don't think they would get them in that way. + +1465. Suppose you did not want the whole amount of your line in +goods at one time, could you not take the line home with you, and +when you happened to be again in Lerwick might you not get the +balance in any kind of goods you wanted that were in the shop?- +Yes; and I could get the goods at any time if I were to send down +the line. + +1466. Is that sometimes done?-I have never done it; but I suppose +the merchants would do it. + +1467. Did you ever know of a line being sold to another for +money, or for another kind of goods?-No; I never did that myself, +and I don't know of it being done. + +1468. Is it all drapery that you are taking back?-Yes. + +1469. Then you will have about £2 or £3 worth of it this time?- +Yes. + +1470. Do you want all that for your own use?-The girl for whom +I sold one of the shawls will get her share of it. + +1471. But when you brought down five shawls you might have +twice as much to take back as you have this time?-It is not very +much that they give for the shawls sometimes; and once, when I +came down from Fetlar and had to pay the freight, I had to take +what they would give me; and I could not get what I asked. + +1472. Is it all stuff for, your own use that you are taking back, in +exchange for your own, shawls which you sold?-Yes. + +1473. Do you want the goods?-Yes. + +1474. Are you to use them for yourself?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET TULLOCH, examined. + +1475. You live in Lerwick + +1476. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants here?-Yes. + +1477. Do you buy your own wool?-For about eighteen months I +have bought it. + +1478. Before that, how did you do?-I knitted for Mr. Robert +Linklater. + +1479. You got the wool from him and knitted it, and took back the +articles to him?-Yes. + +1480. When you got the wool from him, in what way were you +paid?-In goods. + +1481. Had you a pass-book?-Yes. + +1482. Have you got it with you?-Yes. [Produces it] + +1483. The goods you got at the shop are entered in the first part of +the book, and then at the end there are entries of the knitted work +which you have brought back to the shop?-Yes; I knitted a great +deal before I took the pass-book out at all. + +1484. The knitting begins on July 7th, 1869, and the goods begin +in November 1866, and there was balance due for knitting of £3, +17s., 10d., which is not entered in the book at all: how do you +explain in that?-It was them who always made up the book. + +[Page 30] + +1485. Had you a pass-book for goods before this?-I knitted a long +time before I took a pass-book. + +1486. When did you begin to knit?-I cannot remember how many +years it is ago. I had knitted for two or three years to Mr. Linklater +before I got the book. + +1487. Are the goods which are entered here just for your own +use?-No; I sold some tea and got money for it, for I could not get +money out of the shop. + +1488. I see that in, 1867, on January 3d, you have, Tea 1s. 10d.; +24th, 9d.; 26th, tea 11d., tea 11d., 1s. 10d: does the last entry mean +that you got two separate parcels of tea, each 11d.?-It may have +been that; I cannot exactly say. + +1489. How much tea would you get for 11d.?-A quarter of a +pound. + +1490. Then you got two quarter pounds on one day?-I suppose +so. One would be for my own use and the other not. + +1491. What would the other be for?-I would likely sell the other, +in order to get money for it. + +1492. Who do you generally sell it to?-I cannot remember who I +sold it to. Sometimes there would be men coming to the house to +buy, tea, and I supplied them. + +1493. What kind of men were these?-Men come from the +country and want to have some tea made and I supply them with it +because I have it in the house. + +1494. Do you keep lodgers?-I have very few lodgers; but +sometimes people come from the country and want tea made for +them, although they do not stay all night. + +1495. Why, did they not stay all night?-Because they went home. + +1496. Was it part of your business to take in people and give them +tea?-No; but they would come into the house and get tea made, +and then go out and do their errands. + +1497. Then they came to your house to get refreshments?-Yes. + +1498. And they sometimes paid you for the which they got?-Yes; +I was always paid for the tea which I gave them in that way. + +1499. Did you sell it to them in quarter pounds or smaller +quantities?-Smaller quantities. + +1500. Do you make a profit off that?-I get money for that, but I +cannot say that I make a profit. Sometimes I had people working +for me, to whom I gave a quarter pound of tea. + +1501. When you got two quarter pounds, would you sell one +quarter entire?-Yes. When people were working for me, then I +had to give them a quarter of a pound of tea in order to pay them, +because I did not have money to give them. + +1502. What people had you working for you?-I have sometimes +been sick, and I have had a person attending upon me, because I +am not healthy; and I had to pay these persons in tea. + +1503. Are you a married woman?-No. + +1504. Have you a house of your own?-Yes; a room. + +1505. The entries in this book only come down to February 1870. +Have you had no book since then?-No. + +1506. Have you still been dealing with Mr. Linklater?-No; I have +been working for myself with my own worsted. That was when I +stopped knitting for him. + +1507. I see an entry on September 9th 1868, Tea 10d., tea 8d., 1s. +6d.: would these be two quarter pounds of tea of different +quality?-Sometimes they would be that, and sometimes not. + +1508. But I am speaking of that particular entry. Was it so in that, +case?-I cannot remember. + +1509. But when you got tea at 10d. and tea at 8d., that must have +been two quarter pounds of different qualities?-Yes; I would get +better tea, and tea that was not so good. + +1510. When you got them on the same day, would you be +intending to sell one of them?-Yes. + +1511. Is that a common practice, to get two quarter pounds of tea +and to sell one of them, or to get several quarter pounds in +payment for your shawl?-No; I just got it as I asked for it. + +1512. Have you sold anything else besides tea which you got from +the shop?-Yes, cottons and some moleskins which I had to take +out of the shop in order to pay my rent. + +1513. I don't see any moleskins marked here?-No; they are not in +that book. + +1514. Had you any other book?-No; it was when I sold my own +shawls that I took the moleskins. + +1515. You say you buy your own wool: where do you buy it?- +There is a woman who spins it for me. I buy it in worsted. + +1516. Do you pay her for it in money?-Yes. + +1517. And you sell your shawls to any merchant who will buy +them?-Yes. + +1518. How are you paid for them?-I sold the last two to Miss +Robina Leisk. + +1519. Is she a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes. + +1520. Has she a shop?-Yes. + +1521. How were you paid for these shawls?-I got £2, 14s. for the +two-27s. apiece. + +1522. Were you paid in money?-No. + +1523. Were they fine shawls?-Yes + +1524-5. Did you get any part of that sum in money?-14s. + +1526. Was that all you asked for in money?-Yes. + +1527. And you got the rest in goods?-Yes. + +1528. Did you want these goods for your own use?-No; I took +some moleskins to sell. + +1529. Was that because you could not get the rest in money?- +Yes. + +1530. Did you ask for more in money?-She did not want to give +me more. + +1531. Did you ask for more?-I did not ask for it, because I knew I +would not get it. + +1532. Did she say she would give you that much, without your +asking?-Yes. + +1533. What did you do with the moleskins?-I sold them. + +1534. How much of them did you take?-21/2 yards. + +1535. What was the price of them?-2s. 8d. a yard. + +1536. Was there anything else you bought for the purpose of +selling?-Yes; I bought some cotton. + +1537. Have you sold it?-Yes. + +1538. Did you get as much for it as you paid?-Yes. + +1539. Did you get a little more?-No; no more. I thought it a +favour to get the same price. + +1540. Did you know any person who would take these goods from +you at the time you got them, or did you buy them on the chance of +selling them?-No; I knew a person who would buy them from +me. + +1541. Is that the way you generally deal when you have shawls to +sell?-Yes. + +1542. You get some things that you want, and some things that +your neighbours want, and as much as you can in money?-Yes. + +1543. Do you often get tea for the purpose of selling it?-I get it +when I ask it; but I only ask it when I know of a person who will +take it from me for what they have done for me. + +1544. How do you purchase the provisions-the meal and bread- +that you want?-When I sell anything that I get for my work, I buy +them with the money. + +1545. But if you don't have the money, what do you do?-I don't +have money at the time, I go down to a shop and get it from them +until I can get the money to pay for it. + +1546. What did you do with the 14s. that you got for the shawls +from Miss Leisk?-It would go for worsted to make other things. + +1547. Have you always to pay money for your worsted?-Yes. + +1548. You don't get provisions, either meal or bread, at the shops +where you sell your shawls?-No. + +1549. Is that never done in Lerwick?-No; I never had it done to +me. Those who buy the shawls keep nothing of that kind. + +1550. Would you be content to take a lower price [Page 31] for +your shawls if you were paid for them in money instead of +goods?-Yes. + +1551. Have the merchants ever offered you a lower price for your +shawls in money?-No. + +1552. Have you ever asked them to do that, or tried to get them to +do it?-I knew that I need not try that, because I would not have +got it. + +1553. Do you manage to sell many of your shawls privately in the +town, or to visitors in the summer?-No. + +1554. Is there not a good deal of that done in Lerwick?-I believe +some people do that, but I don't do it. + +1555. Is it not an advantage to get them sold in that way?-Yes; I +think it would be an advantage to get ready money. + +1556. Do charitable ladies sometimes take the shawls-and get +them sold to their friends at a distance?-I can say nothing about +that, because I never sold them in that way. + +1557. Do you give receipts for the goods or money which you get +as the price of your shawls?-No. + +1558. The transaction is all done across the counter, without any +writing?-Yes. + +1559. Do you know whether the shopkeeper enters the price of the +shawls, and the amount of the goods sold to you in return for them, +in any book? Do you see whether that is done?-No, I don't see it. + +1560. You have never noticed that?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY HUTCHISON, examined. + +1561. You live in Lerwick?-Yes. + +1562. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes. + +1563. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes. + +1564. Do you sell your knitting in Lerwick?-I sell some of it in +Lerwick; but I send the most of it south, to Mr. John F. White, +Edinburgh. + +1565. Do you also act as an agent for him in Lerwick, by taking in +things from other people?-Yes; a little. + +1566. How are you paid for the articles you send to him?-I am +paid in ready money. + +1567. Is it remitted to you by a post office order or a bank cheque, +as the case may be?-Yes. + +1568. How much do you send to him?-I never send a large +quantity. I just send what he tells me: a few shawls at a time. + +1569. He gives you orders which you execute?-Yes. + +1570. Do many women who knit come and sell their shawls to +you?-No; I don't buy shawls. I give out wool to be knitted. + +1571. How do you purchase your wool?-I buy it for money. + +1572. From merchants in Lerwick?-Yes. Sometimes I buy from +Mr. Sinclair, but generally I send to the North Isles for it, to people +who buy it in there. + +1573. There are people in the North Isles who buy the wool from +their neighbours and sell it to you, such as Mrs. Smith, who was +spoken of by a previous witness?-Yes; much the same. + +1574 Have you dealt with her?-No. + +1575. Do you pay the women who work for you in money?-Yes. + +1576. You don't keep a store?-No, nothing except the money; or +whatever they require they got it. + +1577. Do you make a bargain when you give out the wool, or fix +price when you see the work?-I buy the wool, and employ them +to knit it. + +1578. You do not merely act as agent for Mr. White?-No; I just +buy the wool and employ the women, and pay them according to +the size of the shawl. + +1579. How many women are working for you in that way?-I +cannot say exactly. + +1580. Are there about half a dozen?-Yes, just about that. + +1581. Do you find that the women here are anxious to work for +you?-Yes; they are anxious to get money. + +1582. You think they would much rather work, for you than for a +merchant who keeps a shop?-Yes; I am never at a loss for them. +When I am in a hurry I always get them to help me, because I pay +in money. + +1583. I suppose you get the choice of the knitters?-I don't know +about that. I just get done what I have to do. + +1584. Have you often been applied to by women who were +anxious to work for you rather than for the shops?-Yes; very +often. + +1585. Do they tell you that it is a kindness or charity to employ +them?-Yes; because they could not get the money out of the +shops. + +1586. Do you know, from your own observation of the system, as +to the mode of dealing at the shops?-I often sell shawls in the +shops, although I am not in the habit of going with them myself, so +that I am often dealing a little in the shops. + +1587. You send them by some other person?-Yes: I employ a girl +to go and sell them for me. + +1588. In that case, how is the transaction carried out?-I just get a +line out of the shop, and get goods for it. + +1589. Is the line in your name?-No; it is just a simple line or +I O U, and I send it back: to the shop at any time when I want the +goods. + +1590. Have you any of these lines with you?-I have one at home, +which I will send in. + +1591. From whom did you get it?-From Mr Robert Sinclair. + +1592. Have you sometimes got these lines from knitters?-Yes; +often. + +1593. They wanted money, and could not get it at the shops, and +brought their lines to you?-Yes; I have often taken a line and +given them money for it in order to meet their necessities, because +they would not get money elsewhere. + +1594. You kept these lines until you could make some use of them +yourself?-Yes. Whenever I required any little thing, I sent to the +shop for it, and paid for it with these lines. + +1595. Have you any of these lines belonging to other women in +your hands just now?-I have not. + +1596. How much money may you have had lying out in that way at +a time?-Not very much; perhaps a few shillings now and then. + +1597. Are the lines generally for a large amount?-No; from 8s. to +7s. or 8s., or thereabout. + +1598. May you have had two or three of them at a time?-Perhaps +one or two. + +1599. Have you known other, people taking lines in the same +way?-Yes;, I believe there are many who do it. + +1600. Do you know any one who is often applied to in that way?- +I cannot say exactly; but I have often taken a line from Miss +Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined on Monday, and given +her money for it, because she was in necessity. + +1601. Does Janet Irvine knit for you?-Yes. + +1602. Have you taken lines, from her?-No; she is a fish-girl, and +does not knit much. + +1603. In selling your own shawls to the shops, have you asked for +money?-No; but I have told the girl who went with the shawls to +sell them for me to ask for a shilling or two, and she said she need +not ask for it because she would not get it. + +1604. But that was a case of sale. You know nothing about the +case where, the wool has been given out by the shops?-No, I +don't know about that, because it is long since I knitted any for the +shops. + +1605. Do you know of any other person in Lerwick who sends +hosiery south in the same way?-Yes; there are plenty of them +through the town. + +1606. Do they send the hosiery, south direct to White or to other +merchants in Edinburgh or Glasgow?-Yes; there are, plenty who +do that; but I never have any dealings with any one except Mr. +White. + +1607. Who else in Lerwick deals in that way with [Page 32] the +shops in the south?-There is a Mrs. James Henry in Burn's Lane, +and a Mrs. Elizabeth Anderson, and several other people. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, CATHERINE BORTHWICK, examined. + +1608. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-I am. + +1609. Do you buy your own wool?-No. + +1610. Who do you knit for?-For Mr. Robert Sinclair, Mr. +Thomas Nicholson, and sometimes for Miss Robina Leisk. + +1611. Have you books with all these people + +1612. Have you any pass-book at all?-No. + +1613. You get the wool weighed out to you, and you take back the +article which has been ordered?-Yes. + +1614. What articles do you knit?-Veils, shawls, neckties, ladies' +scarfs, and the like. + +1615. How long have you been doing business in that way?- +About fifteen years. + +1616. How are you paid?-Just in goods from the shops. + +1617. You take an article which you have made to the shop, and +tell them what the price is?-No; they price it themselves. + +1618. Do they price it when the material is given out to you?-No; +they price it when the article is brought to them again. + +1619. When they have fixed the price, what takes place?-I can +get anything out of their shop in the shape of goods that I ask for, +only I cannot get any money. + +1620. Do you not get part of the price in money?-No; I have +never any money from Mr. Sinclair, except perhaps 5s., for the +whole fourteen years I have wrought for him. + +1621. Do you get money from other dealers you have +mentioned?-I have got a little money from Mr. Thomas +Nicholson; but it is not long since he began business for himself. + +1622. Do you often go into the shops with articles worth about +10s?-Yes. + +1623. How much of that do you get in money?-I have never got +any money from Mr. Sinclair at all. It is about seven years since I +asked him for 1s., and he would not give it me, and I have not +asked since. + +1624. Can you only get dry goods and tea at the shops?-I can get +tea, and soap, and soda, and blue, and starch, and the like of that. + +1625. How do you get your food?-I have a father, who buys it for +me. + +1626. You live with your father, and get your food with the +family?-Yes; what his wages can bring in. + +1627. Is that the only way you have of getting a living?-No; +sometimes I have to take things out of the shop and sell them for +money. + +1628. To whom do you sell them?-To any neighbour or any +person who requires them. + +1629. Do you do that often?-No; I have not done it for the last +two years, because some of the ladies in the town have employed +me to knit for money. + +1630. Do you prefer to sell to ladies in the town?-Yes. + +1631. Are the goods which you knit for them for their own use?- +Yes; or perhaps they get an order from the south, and they will +rather put the money our way than go to the merchants with it. + +1632. Do many ladies befriend you in that way?-Not many. +There is Mrs. Walker, the Rev. Mr. Walker's lady. + +1633. Who else?-I have not done anything for any other person +for money. + +1634. But Mrs. Walker pays you in money?-Yes; and the same +amount as I would get in goods from the shops. + +1635. Are the women who knit anxious to get customers of that +kind?-Yes. + +1636. Would you be content with a lower price for your shawls if +you could get it in cash?-Yes. + +1637. Have you ever been to take a lower price and get the +money?-No. + +1638. Have you ever offered to take less for your shawls if you +could get money?-Yes. + +1639. To whom did you make that offer?-I offered a white half- +shawl to Mr. Robert Sinclair, and I also offered a white half-shawl +to Mr. Thomas Nicholson. + +1640. When?-The one I sold to Mr. Nicholson was in the spring, +and that to Mr. Sinclair was about two years back. + +1641. How much less did you offer to take in these cases?-2s. +The shawl was worth £1, and I offered it for 18s. + +1642. Was anything due to you by Mr. Sinclair at the time you +asked for the shilling?-Yes; I think he was due me about 5s. 6d. +at that time. + +1643. Do you mean that you took goods to the shop worth 5s. +6d.?-No; he was due me about 5s., 6d. at that time. I was +knitting a shawl for him, and was settling up for it. + +1644. Was the shawl not finished?-Yes; I brought the shawl +ready, and I was settling up. I had all the price of the shawl to get, +and I took some goods, and then there was about 5s. 6d. over; and +I asked him for 1s., and he said he could not give it to me. + +1645. How did you square the balance at that time?-I just took +something to give to a girl who had been working in our peats. + +1646. What did you take?-A petticoat. + +1647. Was it worth. 5s. 6d.?-Yes; the girl took it because she +knew I could not get the money. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS. MARGERY MANSON or +ANDERSON, examined. + +1648. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes. + +1649. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have done so for the +last twelve months. + +1650. Before that, who did you knit for?-For Mr. Robert +Linklater. + +1651. You got wool from him?-Yes. + +1652. Were you paid for your work in goods, or in money?-In +goods. + +1653. Did you get any money from him that you asked for, if you, +wanted some?-I knew that I need not ask him for any, because I +would not have got it. + +1654. You are married, and therefore you don't spend all your +time in knitting?-No. + +1655. Why did you give up knitting for Mr. Linklater?-Because I +could not do with it; it did not pay me. + +1656. How did it not pay you?-I could not get money. + +1657. But were the goods you got not as good you as money?- +No. + +1658. Were they not worth the money value that was put upon +them?-No. + +1659. Why was that?-I did not have money to live upon. + +1660. But your husband keeps you?-No; he is sickly, and I have +to do for myself. + +1661. You have heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses, +Catherine Borthwick and Margaret Tulloch?-Yes. + +1662. They have explained the way of dealing here. Is that the +way you have been accustomed to?-Yes. + +1663. Have you anything different to say about the way in which +you were paid for shawls that you knitted with Mr. Linklater's +wool?-No. + +1664. Did you ever get lines when you would not take goods?- +No; I had a pass-book. + +1665. Have you got it here?-No. + +1666. Was it kept in the same way as Margaret Tulloch's?-Yes. + +1667. The goods you got were entered at one end, and the shawls +you gave in were entered at the other, and a balance was made +now and then?-Yes. + +[Page 33] + +1668. How often was your book balanced?-I don't remember. + +1669. Did you sign your pass-book as a receipt?-No; he signed it. + +1670. You have had no pass-book since you began to knit with +your own wool?-No. + +1671. Where do you buy your wool now?-I have a woman +spinning for me, and I buy the worsted from her. + +1672. You pay her in ready money?-Yes. + +1673. Do you sell your shawls to any person in particular?-Yes; +to Mr Robert Sinclair. + +1674. Are you paid for them in goods?-Yes, and a little in +money. I always get some money from him to buy the worsted +with. + +1675. Would you be content with a lower price for your shawls if +you were paid in money?-Yes. + +1676. Have you ever asked to get it all in money, and offered to +take less?-No. + +1677. Do you ever sell shawls to ladies or to any person not in the +trade?-No; Mr. Robert Sinclair has bought them all from me. + +1678. Have you ever asked for more money from any of the +merchants than they would give you?-No. + +1679. Have you ever got lines?-Yes, I got lines from Mr. +Sinclair. + +1680. When?-When I gave in my articles. + +1681. And when you did not happen to want goods?-Yes. + +1682. Have you got any of these lines?-No. + +1683. What did you do with them?-I gave them back when I got +the goods. + +1684. Was that long ago?-No, not long ago; it was when I sold +my last shawl to him. + +1685. Would that be a month or two?-Yes. + +1686. Was a line given to you for the whole price of the shawl that +you were selling, or was it only for the balance?-27s., was the +price of the shawl. + +1687. How much of that did you take in goods?-I took about one +half of it, and I got a line for the rest. + +1688. Did you take the line out in goods afterwards-Yes. + +1689. You did not think of asking money for the line?-No; I +never asked money at that time. + +1690. Did you ever know of people selling their lines to their +neighbours?-No. + +1691. Or dealing with them in any way, or letting their neighbours +get goods for them?-No. + +1692. How much of the 27s., the price of your last shawl, did you +get in money?-7s. + +1693. When was that?-I think about two months ago, I do not +recollect exactly. + +1694. Was the 7s. all that you asked for?-Yes; I asked for the 7s. +and he said he would give it to me. + +1695. Did you take 4s. or 5s, worth of goods at the same time?- +Yes; or perhaps more. + +1696. And the rest in a line?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, JEMIMA SANDISON, examined. + +1697. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes. + +1698. Do you knit with your own wool?-No. + +1699. Do you knit for merchants in the town?-Yes; for Mr. +Robert Sinclair. + +1700. Have you a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.] + +1701. Do you deal with Mr Sinclair in the way which has been +described already by the Witnesses you have heard?-No. + +1702. Do you deal in a different way?-Yes. + +1703. How is that? You get wool from him to knit into shawls or +veils?-Yes; chiefly veils. + +1704. The goods you get are entered in the passbook you have +produced, and the goods given in are entered at the end of it?- +Yes. + +1705. Are the goods supplied to you always goods which you are +requiring for your own use?-Yes. + +1706. You do not sell any of them, or get them for your +neighbours?-No; unless such goods as my own family require. + +1707. Do you live with your own family?-Yes; with my mother. + +1708. Do you get part of the payment for your shawls and veils in +money?-Yes; whenever I ask money I get it. I never asked a +shilling from Mr. Sinclair himself but that I always got it. + +1709. When you got money for a shawl, how was it entered in the +book?-I cannot say anything about that. + +1710. If you were to take two veils to Mr. Sinclair and ask the +money for them, do you think you would get it?-I cannot say, +because I never asked it; but whenever I asked for a small quantity +of money, such as 2s. or the like of that, I got it. + +1711. What quantity of goods did you generally take at a time?-I +cannot say that either. I don't think I ever had money to get out of +his book. I was always due him something, and in that way I could +not ask him for money. + +1712. Then your account was larger than the value of the articles +which you took to him?-Yes. + +1713. If that was so, did you ever ask him for money at all?-Yes; +sometimes, when I was in a strait for money I asked him for a +little, and I got it. + +1714. Then that was an advance, which he made when there was +nothing due to you?-Yes; I have asked him for money when I +was due him. + +1715. But you don't know how that was entered in the pass-book, +or whether it was entered there at all?-No; I don't think it was +entered. + +1716. I see there are entries in your pass-book: April 28, 1871, +cash 1s.; April 26, cash 6d.: is that the way the money was +entered?-Yes. + +1717. There is an entry of worsted, 5d. was that worsted given to +you for the purpose of knitting shawls to Mr. Sinclair?-I asked +for worsted to buy, and I got it to knit for myself, and to sell again. + +1718. Then it is entered in the pass-book just as goods?-Yes. + +1719. Is there any difficulty made about giving you worsted in that +way and entering it in the pass-book?-No; whenever I ask for +worsted, I get it the same as any other thing out of the shop. + +1720. Were you ever told that worsted was a money article?-No; +I never was told that, so far as I can remember. + +1721. Have you dealt in any other shop than Mr. Sinclair's in this +way?-No; I have knitted for two and a half years for Mr, Sinclair. + +1722. And always in the same way?-Yes. + +1723. Are you a North Unst woman?-Yes. + +1724. Do you live in Lerwick by yourself?-I live with my mother +and my two sisters in a room. + +1725. Does your mother knit?-No; she spins. + +1726. Does she spin your wool?-No; she gets wool from other +people to spin, and gets money for her work. She only spins for +those who employ her. + +1727. Does she spin for the shops?-No; she spins generally for +ladies in the town, who employ her to make worsted for them. + +1728. Ask her employers altogether ladies, not merchants?-They +are just merchants' wives, and ladies in the town-chiefly Dr. +Cowie's lady. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS ANN ARCUS, examined. + +1729. You are a dresser in Lerwick?-Yes. + +1730. How do you carry on that business? What is the nature of +it?-I sometimes make shawls myself, and sell them. There +[producing it] is a line of mine, which I got from Mr. Sinclair. + +1731. Do you dress shawls or make them?-I dress shawls, and +sometimes I make them or get them made. + +1732. What is the dressing business?-Washing the shawls, and +stretching them on the grass, and mending [Page 34] them and +making them ready for the market. The stitches sometimes give +way when they are stretched and then I mend them. + +1733. Do you also bleach the shawls?-We whiten them with +brimstone. + +1734. You do that before stretching them on the grass?-Yes. + +1735. That is part of the washing process?-Yes. + +1736. Does every shawl, after being knitted require to be so +dressed before it is sold?-Yes. + +1737. The merchants don't buy shawls until after they are +dressed?-No. + +1738. Are your transactions in dressing shawls always with the +knitters, or are they sometimes with the merchants?-Sometimes +they are with the merchants, and sometimes with the knitters. + +1739. Then the merchants do buy shawls undressed?-No; they do +not buy them undressed, but they send some shawls out to be +worked for themselves; and it is these shawls I dress for them + +1740 In that way a knitter who works for a merchant has nothing +to do with you?-No. + +1741. When she has knitted a shawl with wool supplied by the +merchant, she takes it to the merchant, and he sends it to you to be +dressed?-Yes. + +1742. It is only the knitters who work with their own wool who +come to you?-Yes. + +1743. Do you also buy shawls from knitters yourself?-No; but I +get shawls made in the same way as the merchants do, and then I +sell them. + +1744. To whom do you sell them?-To the merchants. + +1745. Do you send any shawls south?-No. + +1746. Do you sometimes sell knitted articles to the merchants on +behalf of the knitters?-Yes. + +1747. When a knitter brings you a shawl to dress, I suppose she +pays you in money?-Yes. + +1748. What is the usual for that?-There are different charges, +according to the size of the shawl; but for the general run of them +it is 6d. + +1749. And that is always paid by the knitter to you in money?- +Yes. + +1750. In what way is it that you are sometimes asked to sell +articles for the knitters?-Because I cannot always have them +dressed and ready for them to sell after the time they come in with +the goods and before they go away again. These women come +from the country, and I cannot have their things ready before they +want to go home again; and therefore I sell them for them before +they come back. + +1751. You sell them as their agent?-Yes. + +1752. And then you account to them for the price?-Yes. I get the +price from some of the merchants, but others mark it in their +books, and don't give lines. These merchants mark down the price +of the shawl, and the name of the woman who owns it. + +1753. And she, when she comes to the merchant again, arranges +with him as to the price?-Yes. + +1754. Is it within your knowledge that these shawls are always +paid for in goods?-The country girls don't want money, and don't +ask it. It is always clothing they need, and they get it. + +1755. Then they just knit for the purpose of supplying themselves +with clothing?-Yes. + +1756. How is it that they don't want money?-They have some +other way of doing at home, and I suppose they only want their +clothing from the shops in Lerwick. + +1757. Then the knitting with them is an extra sort of +employment?-Yes; it is not exactly a livelihood for them. + +1758. Is that the case with the town girls too?-No; they generally +depend on their knitting for a living. + +1759. Do they regard it as a hardship not to get money?-I can +only speak for myself, not for them. When I have a shawl of my +own, and ask some money on it, I get it. + +1760. Do the town girls come to you to sell their articles for +them?-No; they sell their own work themselves. I dress the +shawls for them, and they get the price themselves-sometimes in +money I suppose, to pay me with. + +1761. You think they get sufficient money for their shawls from +the merchants, to pay your charge?-They get money somewhere +to pay me with: whether it is their own money or not I don't know. +I don't take anything but money. + +1762. You give them credit sometimes until their shawl is sold?- +Yes. + +1763. And then they come back you with the charge for +dressing?-Yes. + +1764. You shown me a line: where did you get it?-I got it in Mr. +Robert Sinclair's shop-I think from his clerk. + +1765. When?-When I sold my shawl-a shawl of my own, which +I knitted myself. + +1766. You did not want anything particular at the time, and +therefore you took the line: was that so?-No. I asked him for a +little money on the shawl, and I got it; and then I got the line, so +that I could buy what I required afterwards as I needed it. + +1767. Did you ask for money?-Yes; I asked for a little, and I got +the sum which is marked on the line as having been paid to me in +cash. + +1768. He gave you 6s. in cash?-Yes. + +1769. Was that all you wanted?-Yes. I did not ask for that sum, I +only said I wanted a little money, he gave that. + +1770. The line, is in these terms: + 'C Z 91-Cr. bearer value in goods twenty six + shillings 26s. stg. + 'To cash 6s; to Vict. tartan 4s. 7d. + ' ' White cotton, 6d.; wincey, 2s. 10d. + ' ' Grey cotton, 6d. + 'R. SINCLAIR & CO. + 'C. S. + '28.12.71' + +This was last Thursday?-Yes. + +1771. Was the shawl with your own?-Yes. + +1772. Then it was just a sale to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. + +1773. You got 6s. in cash and 8s. 5d. in goods, and the rest is still +due?-Yes, for me to get when I require it. + +1774. Is that a usual way of doing business in Lerwick?-Yes; but +I have got the whole of the price in money from a merchant for a +shawl when asked for it-not for myself, but for a country girl. + +1775. From whom have you got it all in money?-From Mr +William Johnston. The price was 20s. + +1776. Is he a hosiery dealer, just in the same way as Sinclair & +Co., and Mr. Laurenson, and Mr. Linklater?-Yes. I have had +money from them all whenever I asked for it. + +1777. Would the women get money from them if they were selling +the shawls themselves?-I cannot answer for that. I don't know +that they would. + +1778. Is it not the fact that the reason why you are sometimes +asked to sell shawls for these women is that you can get the money +for them?-I don't ask any money for the country girls at all; they +never asked me to seek it. + +1779. Do not the girls employ you to sell their shawls because they +think you may get some money from the merchants, when they +would not?-It is just because they think I can get a better price; at +least that is what I think is the reason. They don't bid me get +money. + +1780. Do you think the merchants give you a better price?-They +think so. + +1781. Perhaps you can make a better bargain for them?-They +have that idea. + +1782. Have you never been asked by a country girl to sell a shawl +for her and to get money for it?-Never. + +1783. Then, on the occasions when you have got money, it has +been for shawls which you have sold either for yourself or for +town girls?-Yes, but particularly for my self. + +1784. Have you sold them for town girls, and got money for +them?-No; I have never asked money for any person but myself, +and I have always got it. + +[Page 35] + +1785. How many shawls may you sell for yourself in the course of +a year?-Sometimes there may be two. + +1786. May there sometimes be three?-I could not tell the number +particularly, but I have always one or two in the course of the +twelvemonth. + +1787. I suppose you are chiefly engaged with your dressing +business, and have not much time to knit shawls?-Yes; the +dressing is my only way of living. + +1788. Are you a widow?-Yes. + +1789. Have you often got lines similar to the one you have now +produced?-Yes. Whenever I sell a shawl to Mr. Sinclair I get +these lines, and then I give them to the girls to whom the shawls +belong. + +1790. Then they don't always want the value of their shawls in +goods, but they sometimes take a line-Yes; and they keep it until +they want something else. They are always served with what they +want when they come with a line. + +1791. You have not a pass-book with any of the merchants?-No. + +1792. I suppose pass-books are only used where girls knit with the +merchants wool?-Yes. + +1793. Do you keep a pass-book with any of the merchants for the +shawls which you dress for them?-No; I just get the money. + +1794. Are you paid for them at the time?-Yes. + +1795. Will the merchant send you a large consignment of shawls at +a time to be dressed?-Yes; sometimes he may send a good lot. + +1796. And you return the lot you have got when they are finished, +and get paid for them when you return them?-Yes; in money. + +1797. There is nothing entered in any book between you about +that?-No. + +1798. Are you the largest dresser in Lerwick?-I don't know that I +am. + +1799. Are there any others in the business?-Yes; there are a good +many. + +1800. Do they live mostly at the Docks?-No; there are one or two +dressers who live at the Docks. They don't do so much as I do, but +Mr. Sinclair has dressers of his own who do more than I. + +1801. Does he pay them day's wages?-No; I think he pays them +just as they work for him. The veils, neckties, and scarfs go by +dozens. + +1802. Is that the way you charge for these things?-I charge 11s. +6d. for a dozen veils, and the same for a dozen neckties or scarfs. I +charge 6d. for every shawl, sometimes 3d. or 4d. if it is small, or +1s. if it is a very fine one. + +1803. Have you ever sold shawls to any people except +merchants?-I have. + +1804. Do you sometimes sell to private ladies?-Yes, and +gentlemen too. + +1805. Do you sell to visitors in summer, and to people living in +Lerwick?-Yes. + +1806. Do you consider you are likely to get a better bargain with +them than with the merchants?-I get the money from them. + +1807. But you have no reason for dealing with them for the +purpose of getting the money, because you say you get money +from the merchants if you ask it?-Yes; but if a gentleman comes +and asks me for a shawl, he has nothing to give me except the +money, and I get it all in money then. + +1808. Would you rather do with a gentleman or lady in that way +than with a merchant?-It is only sometimes that they can take a +shawl in that way; but the merchant always takes them. + +1809. But would you prefer to deal with strangers rather than with +the merchants?-If they were always here, I should like it very +well. + +1810. That is because you get a better bargain, and you are sure to +get all money?-Yes. + +1811. Is it not rather a favour to you that the merchant gives you +money when you ask it?-I don't know whether it is a favour to +me, but I always get it when I ask it. But I don't have such a great +run of shawls as some of the other women have. + +1812. It is rather out of your ordinary way to be selling shawls?- +Yes; but when I do make one and ask money, I get it. + +1813. Have you ever got the whole price of a shawl in money?- +Yes. + +1814. From the whole of merchants you have named?-No, only +from Mr. Johnston; and that was for a country girl, because she +was in need of it. + +1815. That was a case in which you went out of your usual way, +because the girl required it?-Yes. + +1816. Have you asked the whole money from any of the other +merchants?-No, I never did. + +1817. You have only asked a part of it in money?-Yes. + +1818. On a shawl worth 25s. that you were selling for yourself or +for a girl, how much might you, in a general way, ask in money?- +I have got as high as 10s. or 7s. 6d. or 5s., just as I asked it. + +1819. But you never thought of asking the whole price of it in +money?-No; but I was always requiring something that the +merchants had to give me. + +1820. Supposing you had a shawl to sell, would you give it to a +merchant for a lower price if he paid it down in cash, than if he +paid you in goods for it?-Yes; if I was requiring the cash, I +would. + +1821. Would you not do it in any case?-I would be glad of the +money, certainly. + +1822. Do you think it would be worth while for the knitters, as a +rule, to take a less price for their shawls and to get money for +them, rather than to go on in the present way?-I don't know +about that. For my own part, I should like if the people were to get +part of both-both money and articles. Nobody can live without +articles; and it is just as well to get them from the merchants who +buy our shawls, as to get the money. + +1823. But if the merchants did pay all the price of the shawls in +money, it would just come back to them, because, as you say very +truly, people cannot do without some of the merchants' goods, and +the money would return to them in payment for their goods. Don't +you think, that would be a better system for all parties than the +present?-Those who need money would like to get it; but some +people don't stand so much in need of money as others. For +instance, if I were knitting shawls only, I would need most of the +price in money, because I have no other way of living but I don't +mean to say that girls who work merely for the sake of getting +clothing, require to get the whole price in money. + +1824. But suppose they got all the price of their work in money, +might it not be easier for them to make the purchases of the goods +they require?-They would not get so much for their shawls then; +they could not expect it. + +1825. That is because the merchant makes a profit upon the goods +he sells, as well as upon the shawls?-Yes. + +1826. Are you aware whether it is a common thing in Lerwick, to +sell shawls cheaper for money than they would be given for +goods?-Yes, any person who required money would rather sell a +shawl for 1s. or 2s. less, in order to get it. + +1827. Have you often seen that done?-Yes. + +1828. Have you often done that yourself on behalf of the country +girls?-Yes. + +1829. You mentioned a case where you got the whole price of a +shawl in money from Mr. Johnston: did you, in that case, say you +would give it for 2s. or 3s. less if you could get the whole price in +money?-Yes; because the girl required it, and told me to do that. +She wanted the money to pay her rent with. + +1830. Was the price you got a fair price for the shawl?-It was at +that time. + +1831. Is there anything else you wish to say on this subject?-I +have only to say that I think the girls ought to be very thankful to +the merchants, for they have done more for them than any one in +the place has done yet. They have bought their work, and then +they have gone and distributed it throughout the country. This +knitted work is not worn here; but the merchants have got a market +for it, and therefore I think the girls ought to be very grateful to +them. + +[Page 36] + +1832. Do you think they would not have got a market for their +goods themselves?-No; plenty of them would never have been +able to have gone to the market, even if they had thought of it. + +1833. How long is it since that trade became general here?-I can +hardly tell; I was a little girl when it began. The first shawl I made +I got 7s. 6d. for, and I was very proud of it. + +1834. How much would you get for that now?-They would not +buy such a thing now, the work was so open. I can just recollect of +it. I don't think I was much more than ten years at the time. I sold +it to Mr. Harrison, and he and Mr. Laurenson were about the first +who began to buy them. We got groceries and everything we +wanted then for our shawls. + +1835. You do not get these things now, because the merchants +who buy the shawls don't have them?-They have them all except +groceries. + +1836. With regard to the girls in town who sell the shawls to +merchants and get only goods in return, how do they do for a +living?-Some girls live with their parents, and can do very well. + +1837. But a number of them live in rooms by themselves, and +perhaps have a parent or some other person to support out of their +earnings: how do they generally do for their food?-I can hardly +answer that. I don't know how they do; but I know that some of +the girls that I am in the habit of dressing the shawls for, come and +tell me they have sold a shawl today, and what they got for it, and +that they have got some money. Some of the merchants give them +money, and some of them tea, and worsted to knit another shawl +with; and that is just money. + +1838. But if they have to make shawl with the worsted, they +cannot turn it into provisions?-No; but they will make another +shawl. + +1839. And they may get 1s. or 2s. in money?-Yes. + +1840. But if they only get 1s. or 2s. on each shawl, that is not +sufficient either to pay their house rent or to supply them with +provisions?-No; but I think there are some of them who may get +a shawl sold for all money, and then that pays the rent. + +1841. They do happen to get that occasionally?-Yes; some lady +who wants one for a present to a friend might buy it from them. +That is the only way I can think of in which they can get their +provisions; but if it was the case that the merchants had groceries +in their shops, people would not require very much money, and +then they would get their livelihood. + +1842. What kind of goods do you generally get for your country +girls in exchange for their shawls?-I do not buy them; they buy +them for themselves. + +1843. You get lines, and they choose the goods for themselves +when they next come to town?-Yes. + +1844. In that way you do not know what they get?-No; but I +always hear them say that they got very good bargains, and they +are generally well pleased. + +1845. You say shawls are sometimes sold to a lady or gentleman +passing through the town; I suppose, in that case, there will be two +prices for them?-No. + +1846. Would you ask from them the same price that you get from +the merchant in goods?-We might ask it, but, seeing the money, +we might give the shawl for less. Some people don't ask to have +the price reduced, but others do. + +1847. You just make the best bargain you can, in each case?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH MOODIE, examined. + +1848. Are you in the habit of knitting for any one in Lerwick?- +Yes; for Mr. Sinclair. + +1849. Has any one asked you to come and give evidence here +to-day?-Yes; I was summoned. + +1850. Did any one ask you besides that?-No. + +1851. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it with wool supplied +to you by Mr. Sinclair?-Partly both, I generally have a shawl of +my own in hand, but I always knit for Mr. Sinclair. + +1852. Do you keep a pass-book?-No; I never had a pass-book +with him. + +1853. Are you paid in the same way both for your own shawls that +you sell, and for those that you knit for him?-No; generally when +I knit a shawl for Mr. Sinclair, he allows me so much for the +knitting of it; but when I sell a shawl, I price it myself. + +1854. Is that price paid in the same way that the wages are paid to +you for knitting?-No. + +1855. Is it paid to you in money in both cases; or in goods?-It is +paid in goods in both cases. + +1856. Is there not a certain part of it, in both cases, that you can +get money for?-Yes. When I knitted for Mr. Sinclair before I +was married, he generally gave me money whenever I asked for it; +but since I had a house of my own, I generally manage my affairs +so that I do not have to ask him for money. I usually take clothes +for my children and myself from him without getting money at all; +but if I did ask him for money, I have no doubt he would give it to +me. + +1857. Have you always got money when you asked for it?-Yes; +whenever I asked I got it. + +1858. Do you generally take the whole value of your shawls in +goods?-Yes, I always do. + +1859. And no money passes between you at all?-No, not since I +was married; but previously, when I asked him for money, I +always got it. + +1860. Did you generally ask for a considerable part of the price of +your shawls in money?-Yes. + +1861. How much might you get out of a 20s. shawl, for instance?- +Perhaps I might have asked him for 2s. or 2s, 6d., and so on, +money. + +1862. Would that be about the usual thing?-Yes; that was +generally about the usual thing. + +1863. Did you ever get the whole price of a shawl or of any +hosiery goods in money?-No; I never asked it. + +1864. Do you live at home with your people, or did you live by +yourself before you were married?-I lived at home with my +father. + +1865. So that you did not require any money with which to +purchase food for yourself?-No. + +1866. You merely knitted to supply yourself with dress, or +whatever you wanted for yourself?-Yes. + +1867. Did you require for your dress all the payments you received +for your knitting?-No, I cannot say that I required it all for +myself. I might have supplied some of my brothers or sisters with +any little thing they wanted. + +1868. Did they repay you for that, or did you make a present of it +to them?-I generally made a present of it to them, as I was at +home. + +1869. Would you have preferred to have been paid wholly in +money?-I should prefer to be paid part of both, if I could manage +it. + +1870. Would you prefer to get half the price in money?-Yes, I +would like that very well. + +1871. Could you not get one half of it in money if you asked for +it?-I believe if I had asked for it I could have got it, but I did not +ask it. + +1872. Then, if you preferred it, why did you not ask for it?-I told +you I managed my affairs in such a way that I did not need it. + +1873. But you said you would have preferred to have had half of it +in money?-Provided I could have got it, I should have liked it +very well; but I did not ask that. + +1874. Why did you not ask it? Do you think there would have +been a difficulty in getting it?-I don't know; I only know that I +never asked for one half of it in money. + +1875. Why?-I generally took a line for what remained to me +upon a shawl. I might have got the money instead of a line, but I +did not ask it. + +1876. You have taken lines sometimes?-Yes, I generally took +them. + +1877. Have you any of these lines have none just now?-No, I +have none just now. + +1878. When you get a line, do you always take it [Page 37] back to +the shop, and get goods?-Yes; I sometimes take it back to the +shop. + +1879. What do you do with it at other times?-Sometimes a friend +may require a line from me, and give me money for it. + +1880. If you were selling your goods for ready money, would you +take a less price for them?-Sometimes I have seen me take a +shilling or so less if it was all money. + +1881. But you said you never got the whole price of a shawl in +money?-Occasionally I sold a shawl to a stranger in the place in +the summer time, and I might give it to him for a shilling less. + +1882. Do you generally get a smaller price when you sell to a +stranger in that way?-Perhaps I may sometimes have asked a +smaller price, as it was the money I was to get. + +1883. If you wanted the money, why did you not, when selling +your shawls to a merchant, ask him for the ready money, and take +1s. or 2s. less?-I don't know. I never thought of that. + +1884. Was it not because it was not the practice here to give +money?-Yes; that is the truth. + +1885. Of course a shawl which you sold to a stranger in that way +would be one knitted with your own worsted which you had +bought?-Yes. + +1886. Do you always pay ready money for your worsted?- +Always. + +1887. Do you always buy your worsted from the merchants in +town?-Sometimes; and sometimes, when the country people +come down, they have worsted with them, and I buy it from them +too. + +1888. Is the price the same in both cases?-Yes, always. + +1889. If you were selling a shawl to a merchant and taking goods, + and if you asked to have part of the goods in worsted, is there any +objection made to that way of dealing?-No; I never heard any +objection made to that. + +1890. Did you ever get worsted as part of the goods you received +in payment for your shawls?-Yes. + +1891. Often?-Not very often; sometimes. + +1892. You never knew of any objection being made to giving you +worsted as part of what you were to get for your shawls?-No. + +1893. Or for a line?-No; I never heard any objection. + +1894. Do you knit to a large extent?-Yes; knit a good deal + +1895. How much will you make in a month or in a week in that +way?-I could not exactly say. It takes a good long time to make a +nice shawl. + +1896. Is it mostly shawls you make?-Yes. + +1897. Will it take a month to make a shawl which is worth £1?- +Yes. I have other things to do, and cannot keep constantly at it. + +1898. But you do make one shawl a month or there about?-Yes. + +1899. So that your dealings in that way will come perhaps £12 or +£14 a year?-They will be more than that. I would reckon that +they would be about £15. + +1900. Would that all be your own knitting?-I could not say that. +Perhaps I might get some one to help me a little with a shawl. + +1901. But it would be mostly your own work?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET OLLASON, examined. + +1902. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants in Lerwick?- +No; I knit for myself, and I sell the goods. + +1903. How are you paid for them?-I generally make articles for +which I get an order. + +1904. From whom?-From ladies who employ me. + +1905. Have you never sold to merchants at all?-I have sometimes +sold to Mr. Sinclair. + +1906. When you sell to him, are you paid in money?-I have asked +for part of both-money and goods-and I got it. + +1907. You did not ask for the whole in money?-No. + +1908. Why?-Just because I thought it was not the custom of the +place. + +1909. Did you want the whole in money?-No; I was requiring the +goods at the time. + +1910. Does it often happen that you sell articles to Mr. Sinclair in +that way?-Yes; I sold him two shawls lately. + +1911. How much of the price did you get in money?-The price of +one of the shawls was 35s., and I got 17s. 6d. in money. + +1912. Did you ask for that?-Yes. + +1913. And you had no difficulty in getting it?-No. I sold the +other shawl for 28s., and I got 8s. in money and £1 in goods. + +1914. That was the arrangement that you wanted yourself?-Yes; I +asked it. + +1915. You wanted the goods?-Yes. + +1916. Would you have made a better bargain by selling these +shawls to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger visiting the place?-I +got much the same price from Mr. Sinclair as I had been in the +habit of getting. + +1917. Do you sell to visitors, or to ladies in Lerwick, because you +prefer to do that?-We sell to them because we are not requiring +the goods. + +1918. And you prefer to sell to them because you wish to get the +money?-Yes. + +1919. Do you live with your friends?-I live with my father. + +1920. And you buy your own worsted?-Yes. + +1921. Where do you buy it?-I get it from the North Isles,-from +Yell. + +1922. You get it from people who make it there?-Yes. + +1923. Do you generally knit for ladies who have given you an +order, or do you knit your shawl and then seek for a purchaser?- +Sometimes I get an order for shawl and make it, and at other times +I make one and keep it until I get an order. + +1924. Is it considered among you who knit, to be a better way of +living that you knit to ladies than to merchants?-Yes. + +1925. Do you ever try to dispose of your shawls to visitors who +come to Shetland in the summer?-No, I never did that, for I +generally get orders for them as soon as I have them ready. + +1926. Do you know that it is the practice to look out for visitors +in summer, or to send shawls to places such as hotels or +lodging-houses where they stay, in order to get buyers among +them?-I know that is a common thing, but I have never done it. + +1927. Is that done because it is a more profitable way of disposing +of the goods than by selling them to the merchants?-I think that +is the reason. + +1928. Or is it done because they get money from the visitors or +strangers?-I believe it is because they get money. + +1929. Do you get as large a price from a visitor in money as you +get from a merchant in goods?-Yes. + +1930. Do you know that from your own experience?-Yes. + +1931. You said you had sold a shawl for 35s. to Mr. Sinclair: if +you had sold that shawl to a visitor, or to a lady in Lerwick, or to a +stranger in the summer time, would you have got 35s. for it?-I +would. + +1932. Have you got that price for a shawl exactly the same?-Yes; +I have got it from Dr. Hamilton in Bressay, who was requiring it +for a lady. + +1933. You sold another shawl for 28s. Could you have got as high +a price in money from a visitor for it as you got in goods from the +merchant?-Yes. + +1934. You don't know that there are two prices for shawls, +according as they are paid in money or in goods?-I don't know +that, for I have not experienced it. + +1935. Would you have given either of these two shawls you +mentioned for a lower price if you had got the whole price of it in +money?-No; I don't think [Page 38] I could have done it, for I +thought the shawls were worth the price I put upon them. + +1936. Don't you think you could have got a higher price than 35s. +for that shawl from a visitor?-I don't think it. + +1937. When you sold the shawl to Mr. Sinclair at that price, you +knew that he was buying it for the purpose of selling it again: was +the price which he gave you not something of a wholesale price?- +It was just the price I would have asked any one for it, because it +was just what I thought it was worth. The price I put upon it was +just sufficient to pay me for my worsted and my work. + +1938. But Mr. Sinclair must make his profit off the shawl when he +purchased it in order to be re-sold, so that there may be two prices +in that way: do you know anything about that?-No; I don't know +anything about it. + +1939. You thought you ought to get at least 35s. for the shawl, and +you were prepared to take as much more as you could get?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA BOLT, examined. + +1940. You are the wife of William Bolt who lives in Lerwick?- +Yes. + +1941. Are you in the habit of knitting Mr. Sinclair?-I knit for +myself, but I sell my work to Mr. Sinclair. + +1942. You have no pass-book in that way of dealing?-No. + +1943. Did you hear Margaret Ollason's evidence?-Yes. + +1944. Do you knit the same kind of goods as she does?-No; I +generally knit veils and shawls to Mr. Sinclair. + +1945. Do you deal in the same way as she has described?-Yes; +something like the same. + +1946. Do you sell to other people than Mr. Sinclair?-No; I +generally sell everything have to him. + +1947. When you go to him to sell your work, do you get payment +in money or in goods?-In goods. + +1948. Do you prefer that way of dealing; or do you want all +money?-I generally require goods. + +1949. Have you a family?-Yes; the goods were wanted for them. + +1950. You don't get provisions there: you provide them +otherwise?-Yes. + +1951. Do you sometimes ask for money from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes, +I have asked for money, and I got it when I asked it. I have not +sold anything to any other shop for the last fifteen years. + +1952. Would you prefer to get money if you could?-I don't know. +If I were getting money, I would just have to buy goods with it, so +that the goods are the same to me as money. + +1953. Do you know that any one can get money for their goods if +they want it?-I know there are plenty who get it. + +1954. But can any one get whatever money they require for their +goods?-I don't know. I only know that there are many who want +money; but for my own part, I generally ask for goods, and I get +them; and if I require a little money, I always get it. + +1955. Do you sometimes get lines?-Yes; and worsted to knit, +which is the same as money. + +1956. If you are in want of worsted, do you buy it from Mr. +Sinclair in payment for your shawls?-Yes. + +1957. Do you keep any account, or do you just deal across the +counter?-I just get the things as I want them. + +1958. You go to the shop and say you want so much worsted as +part of what you are taking?-Yes. + +1959. Do you get it at the ordinary price?-Yes; it is just the same +price. + +1960. Does your sister-in-law, Mrs. James Bolt, deal in the same +way?-Yes; in the same manner. + +1961. And, altogether with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. We always knit +together, and what hosiery we have we always sell to him. + +1962. Do you buy the worsted from Mr. Sinclair exactly in the +same way as you would buy a piece of cotton or a dress?-Yes; +just the same. + +1963. The price of the worsted is reckoned up as part of the price +of the shawl that you are selling?-Yes. We get it on a line the +same as the other goods. + +1964. Of course: there is no writing: it is just a transaction across +the counter unless there is a line?-Yes. + +1965. But if you have a line, and bring it back to the shop in order +to get goods, do you get worsted for it just as you get any other +goods?-Yes; I have got worsted on a line. + +1966. Do you know that these transactions are all entered in Mr. +Sinclair's book?-Yes. + +1967. You have seen that done?-Yes. + +1968. The worsted is entered there as well as the other things?- +Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. WILHELMINA BOLT, examined. + +1969. Have you anything different to say about the way in which +you knit and deal in your hosiery business from what you have +heard stated by your sister-in-law?-No; I have nothing more to +say. + +1970. You agree with her in everything?-Yes. + +1971. And there is no difference or addition that you can state?- +No. + +1972. Have you asked for money and got all you wanted?-Yes; I +never asked for money and did not get it. When I had a line from +Mr. Sinclair, I just got the same goods from him upon it as I would +have got for money. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS HELEN FLAUS, examined. + +1973. Are you a dresser in Lerwick?-I dress a little and I knit a +little. + +1974. Did you hear the evidence which Mrs. Arcus gave to-day?- +Yes. + +1975. Do you do business in the same way that she described?- +Much the same. + +1976. Do you dress shawls for some of the knitters in Lerwick?- +Yes. + +1977. And you take ready money for that?-Yes. + +1978. Do they sell the shawls direct to the merchants +themselves?-Yes. + +1979. Do you also dress shawls for knitters from the country?- +Yes. + +1980. Do you sell these shawls, or do you return them to the girls +who bring them to you?-I sometimes sell them, and sometimes +they sell them. + +1981. When you sell them to the merchants, do you get ready +money or lines, or do you get goods for the girls?-I get lines from +those merchants who give lines, and those who give no lines mark +them down in their books. + +1982. Who gives you the lines?-Mr. Sinclair. Mr. Laurenson +generally is the only other merchant I sell to and he marks them +down in his own book. He does not give lines. + +1983. You don't sell to any of the other merchants?-Sometimes I +do. + +1984. Do you sell to Mr. Johnston?-Not very much. + +1985. Does he give you a line when you sell to him for a country +girl?-Yes. + +1986. Do you sell to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, occasionally. He does +not give lines; he marks the articles down in his book. + +[Page 39] + +1987. How does he know the girl for whom the shawl has been +sold, when he only marks it in the book?-I give in the girl's name +to him, and she goes and asks for the amount that is marked in her +name, and gets it. + +1988. If she knows the amount?-I tell her the amount. + +1989. Then she knows the amount, and that is sufficient to identify +her?-Yes. + +1990. Do these country girls sometimes ask you to get money for +them rather than goods?-No; they have never asked me to do +that. + +1991. Do they sometimes get part of their payment in money?-I +cannot tell about that. They always get a line from me, and I +cannot tell how the merchants and they settle. + +1992. Do you know whether lines are sometimes given for the +goods which are sold by the knitters in town?-I cannot say +anything about that. + +1993. Or which are sold by yourself?-No; I don't know anything +about that myself. + +1994. You never took lines for the shawls you knitted yourself?- +No; not for my own goods. + +1995. Do you sometimes sell to strangers, or to people who are not +in the trade?-No; I have never done that. + +1996. I suppose you meet with people who knit a good deal, and +have a number of transactions with them?-Yes. + +1997. Do you know whether they prefer to sell to strangers, or to +merchants in town?-Sometimes they require money, and at other +times they require goods as well as money; and they would then +just as well have the goods as the money. + +1998. But if they want the money, can they not have it from the +merchants if they ask for it?-I always got it when I asked it. For +any others, I cannot say. + +1999. Do you dress goods for any of the merchants?-No. + +2000. Only for the knitters?-Yes. + +2001. You are never employed by the merchants at all?-No. + +2002. Can you tell me; why there is not a system of paying always +in money for the hosiery?-Because it has not been a customary +thing, and they never ask it. + +2003. Would it not be just as convenient for all parties to pay in +money?-I don't think it. I think we may just as well have the +goods. + +2004. But if you had the money, it would be better for the knitters, +would it not; because they could buy what goods they wanted? +They might have to hand the money back across the counter, but +they would be able to make their own bargain for what they +bought?-Yes; but they would get a less price for their shawls. + +2005. How do you know that?-It is so stated. + +2006. Who states it?-They generally say that if they get money, +they will not get so much as in goods. + +2007. Do you mean that the merchants say that?-Yes; when we +sell shawls for money, they say they will not give so much for +them in money as in goods. + +2008. Who has told you that?-The merchants. + +2009. Has that often been said to you?-Not often; but it has been +said. + +2011. Who has said it?-Mr. Sinclair: I sold shawl to him last +night. + +2012. And he told you last night that he would give you more in +goods for it than he would give in money?-Yes, than he could +give in money. + +2013. What was the price of that shawl?-I got 15s. for it. + +2014. Did you take that in goods?-Yes. + +2015. Or in a line?-In goods. + +2016. In goods that you took away at the time?-Yes. + +2017. What would you have got if you had sold your shawl for +money?-I cannot exactly say. He did not particularize that. + +2018. You did not go into particulars, because you wanted the +goods?-Yes. + +2019. Do you sometimes sell goods that you get from the +merchants?-No; for I always require them for myself. + +2020. Is it the practice for some of the knitters to sell the goods +they get?-I cannot say; I never saw it done. + +2021. You never bought any goods from a knitter which she had +got in that way?-No, never. + +2022. You are always paid in cash for your own dressing?-Yes. + +2023. Do you think the knitters generally would be content with +lower prices if they got paid in cash?-I cannot speak for any one +but myself. + +2024. You don't know the feelings of the girls deal with you from +the town?-I do not. + +2025. Do you know how most of these girls are provided with their +food?-I cannot say. Occasionally the girls don't require money. + +2026. Is it not the case that a number of single women live in +rooms in and knit for a living?-I cannot say, because I am not +much acquainted through the place. + +2027. You do not know the private circumstances of your +customers?-I do not. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA MOUAT, examined. + +2028. Where do you live?-I live in Girlsta, parish of Tingwall. + +2029. Are you a married woman?-Yes + +2030. Is your husband alive?-Yes, he is at Leith; but I have had +nothing from him for five years. I live by my own knitting; and +that is what has made me so anxious to come here. + +2031 Have you any family?-I have only one son. He is sailing +out of Leith. + +2032. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes. + +2033. Where do you buy it?-I buy it mostly from my friends- +some of it from my brother. + +2034. Is your brother a farmer near where you live?-Yes. + +2035. Do you pay him for the wool?-Yes. + +2036. To whom do you sell your hosiery goods?-I always sold +them to Mr. Spence before he went away. I made fancy stockings +and knitted gloves, and things of that kind. + +2037. You don't knit the fine hosiery; it is all stockings and gloves +and mittens you do?-Yes, and men's frocks. I made them for Mr. +Spence, but since he went away I have been very poorly off. + +2038. He was a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes. + +2039. Did he keep a shop here?-Yes. + +2040. The same kind of shop as is kept by Mr. Sinclair and Mr. +Linklater?-No. He had not so much goods in his shop, as Mr. +Sinclair has, but he sometimes gave me money when I wanted it- +either money or goods. + +2041. Does his sister carry on the business for him now?-Yes. + +2042. Do you sell to her?-No; she is not buying anything. + +2043. How were you paid for your goods?-Just middling. + +2044. Were you paid in money or in goods?-Either in money or +goods. + +2045. If you brought a lot of articles: and asked Mr. Spence to buy +them, he would fix a price; and if the price suited you, you gave +him the articles?-Yes. + +2046. Did he pay you money across the counter?-Yes. + +2047. Were you ever obliged to take goods from him?-Yes; many +a time. + +[Page 40] + +2048. Did he tell you he would not give you money?-No; he did +not say that. + +2049. What did he say?-He just gave me anything I wanted- +sometimes money and sometimes goods. + +2050. He never told you that he did not want to give you +money?-Sometimes he did so. Sometimes he was very unwilling +to give money, but he did give it. + +2051. Was that pretty often?-No; not very often. My articles +were always good. + +2052. Did you sometimes ask him to give you money when you +did not get it?-Yes. + +2053. Is it long since he left the business?-I have never sold +anything to him since the month of July. + +2054. Who do you sell to now?-I have sent what articles I have +made since to my son in the south, and he has sold them in Leith. + +2055. Do you get as good a price for them there as you used to get +from Mr. Spence?-No. + +2056. But your son sends you money for the goods you send to +him?-Yes; he always sends me money, and his shipmates buy +what I make. + +2057. Do many women knit that sort of goods that you deal in- +stockings and gloves?-A great many. + +2058. Is it mostly that kind of knitting that is carried on in your +part of the country at Girlsta?-Yes. + +2059. They don't knit fine work there?-No. + +2060. Who buys the sort of work they make?-Most of the +merchants do so. + +2061. Do the people in your part of the country generally get +payment in goods?-Yes. + +2062. Or in money?-No; they never ask for money. + +2063. Why?-Because the country people are not needing it. + +2064. Do they not need money?-Yes they need money; but when +they get the goods the same they always ask the goods. + +2065. You think there would no use getting money for your +knitting, and just handing it back across the counter the next +minute for goods?-I suppose that is what they think; but they +would be better if they could get the money. + +2066. Can they not get it?-Not very well. + +2067. Why?-Because the merchants are not willing to give it. + +2068. I thought you said the country people did not get money +because they did not want it?-Well, sometimes there is no use of +them getting it, and giving it back again to the merchant they are +dealing with; they might just as well have the goods, because they +have plenty of meal and other things to serve their ends, and they +are not like us, who have to buy everything. We would be glad of +the money sometimes to buy things that the merchant does not +have, or to pay our rent with; but the country people have plenty of +these things, and it is only goods they are wanting, and that is the +reason why they take them. + +2069. Then you have no reason to complain of this system of +paying in goods?-We have to complain of it many a time. + +2070. Why do you complain?-Because if we had money it could +answer for other things, and in other ways than when we get +goods; but we cannot get it. + +2071. Is it a common subject of complaint in the country, that you +cannot get money?-It is every one's complaint; and when we +get articles, we are sorry to have to part with them for perhaps +half-price. + +2072. Do you sometimes sell the articles which you get at the +shops?-Yes. I am in the habit of making very good things, and I +am very sorry sometimes that I have to give them away at so low a +price. + +2073. But suppose you come into town and get goods in return for +your knitting, have you sometimes to sell these goods again?-No; +I have not done that. + +2074. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY ANN SINCLAIR, examined. + +2075. You knit for Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. + +2076. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes. + +2077. Do you keep a pass-book?-No. + +2078. You just settle for the work as you take it back each time?- +Yes. + +2079. Are you generally paid in money or in goods?-Part in both. + +2080. Do you knit shawls or veils?-Mostly veils. + +2081. How many veils will you take to him in a week?-I could +not exactly say. There are four of us besides me. + +2082. Do you all knit for Mr. Sinclair?-There is one who knits +besides me, and another dresses. + +2083. Does she dress only your own knitting, or does she take in +other people's knitting to dress too?-She dresses what she gets to +do for other people. + +2084. Does she do a good deal in that way for other people?-Yes. + +2085. You cannot tell me how many veils you take: to Mr. Sinclair +in a week?-We might do three in week, each of us, if we were +able to work constantly at it. + +2086. Do you work at anything else?-Nothing else-only veils; +but we are so often in trouble, that I could hardly tell you how +many we do in a week. There are three sisters and one brother of +us alive now: my father and mother are dead. + +2087. Is your brother a fisherman?-No; he is in a shop. + +2088. You are not a married woman?-No. + +2089. How much will you get for your veils when you take a lot of +them to Mr. Sinclair? Are they sold at 1s. each?-It is generally +very fine veils that we knit, and we get 1s. 6d. each for them. + +2090. How many do you take at a time to the shop?-Perhaps a +dozen, or perhaps two dozen. + +2091. If you take a dozen, that would be 18s. worth?-Yes. + +2092. How much of that will you get in money?-Our rent is paid +from the knitting. That, of course, is money. + +2093. You have to get as much as will pay your rent?-Yes. + +2094. How do you get your provisions?-We get money whenever +we ask it, besides what is taken for our rent. + +2095. Are you tenants of Mr Sinclair?-Yes. + +2096. You have a house from him, and he keeps your rent off what +you have to get for your knitting?-Yes; and we have sometimes +to get as high as 5s. a week from him, and we always get it. + +2097. That is, for your living?-Yes. + +2098. Do you get as much money in payment for your veils as you +require?-Yes; as much as we ask for. + +2099. Will you manage to take a dozen veils to him in the course +of a fortnight?-Yes; or perhaps a dozen in three weeks. + +2100. You are speaking both of your sisters and yourself?-Yes. + +2101. How much of that 18s. as a general thing, will you get in +money?-I can hardly say. If we were to ask money weekly we +would get it: but since our brother's wages were raised, we have +not asked so often for money. + +2102. That is to say, you have spent more of the produce of your +knitting in goods-in clothing?-Yes. + +2103. Have you ever had to sell any of the goods that you got at +the shop?-No. + +2104. Or tea?-No. + +2105. You don't knit any for selling, and you never did?-No. + +2106. Do you think you would be any better off if you got all the +price of your knitting in money?-I don't think it, because if I got +it in money I would just lay it down on the counter and get goods +for it. + +2107. That is to say, you would get the same quantity of goods that +you get now?-Yes. Of course I would not take the money and go +to another shop with it. + +[Page 41] + +2108. Mr. Sinclair recommended you to come here today?-Yes; +he said he thought I should come. + +2109. How much did you get for knitting your last shawl?-I think +we got £2, 10s. for our last shawl. [<Mr. Sinclair>, £2, 15s.] Yes, +it was £2, 15s. + +2110. That was a remarkably large one, I suppose?-Yes it was +very fine. + +2111. It was knitted by you and your sisters?-Yes. + +2112. How long ago was that?-It was in the month of April or +May, I think. + +2113. How much of that did you get in money?-It was just +marked in to our account, and we got the money as we asked for it. + +2114. You did not tell me before that was the way in which you +dealt?-I thought I did. You asked me if I had a pass-book, and I +said it was just marked into the book. + +2115. I rather understood that a settlement was made with you +each time you took in your work?-No, we have an account. + +2116. And that £2, 15s. was marked into it?-Yes. + +2117. You did not take any goods at that time?-I hardly think it; +but I really forget. + +2118. Did you get any money at that time?-I don't think it. + +2119. Did you ask for money?-No; and it was merely because I +did not ask for it that I did not get it. + +<Adjourned>. + +Lerwick: Thursday, January 4, 1872. +<Present>-Mr. Guthrie. + +ARTHUR LAURENSON, examined. + +2120. You are a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., Shetland +warehousemen and clothiers in Lerwick?-I am. + +2121. That is the oldest house in that business in Shetland, is it +not?-I believe it is. + +2122. The other partner of the house is your brother-in-law, Mr. +William Bruce Tulloch?-Yes. + +2123. You succeeded your father in the business?-Yes. I was in +business with him for a good many years before his death. + +2124. Besides carrying on that business, you also act as a trustee or +factor?-Yes; in bankruptcies. I am also treasurer for the Shetland +Widows' Fund under Anderson's Trust. + +2125. And in that capacity you have the management of a +considerable income to be devoted to charitable purposes?-Yes; I +am a member of the local committee. There are three other +gentlemen on the committee. And I am also treasurer, and have +been so for a long time. I was appointed by Mr. Anderson in his +lifetime, and I have always been so since. + +2126. In the Shetland hosiery business you get the goods from the +women knitters, who I believe are of two classes: those who knit +for you, and those who sell to you?-Yes. There are those who +bring the article and just exchange it over the counter. The greater +part of our business now consists in the exchanging of goods, +rather than in the employing of women to knit for us. Some years +ago we were more in that way than we are now. Our principal +business now just consists in buying their own productions, or +rather, I should say, in the exchanging of them. + +2127. By using the word exchanging, what is it that you mean to +imply?-I mean to make a difference between that and buying for +actual cash. If I were using the word, buying, it might convey the +idea that we pay cash down. When I say exchanging, I mean that +they bring us the article, and we give them other articles in +exchange for it. + +2128. By that you mean to imply that the transaction is understood +as a barter?-Precisely. + +2129. What is the character of the stock that you keep?-Drapery +articles altogether, and general soft goods. The only grocery goods +we keep are tea and soap. + +2130. And the exchanges which you make with your customers for +their hosiery are of drapery goods, tea, and soap?-Yes. + +2131. Are these purchases made chiefly from women who live in +Lerwick, or from women who come from the country?-Part of +both. We deal principally with women from the country. The +Lerwick women only make fine goods, such as shawls and veils, as +a rule, although some of them do make underclothing too. + +2132. That practice of barter has, I understand, been of long +continuance in Shetland?-Long before my memory. I suppose, as +Mr. Walker humorously remarked in his evidence, it has probably +prevailed since the days of Adam. + +2133. Is any proportion of the payment now made in cash?- +Sometimes it is; and that custom, I think, is a growing one. When +I first came into the business with my father, it was, I may say, an +unheard of thing to give any cash at all,-such a thing was not +thought of or expected by the women; but now for a good many +years-I should say for ten or twelve years-the custom has begun +to give a certain portion of the price in cash, and it seems to be +gradually increasing,-that is to say, each year we are paying more +in cash than we did in the previous year. + +2134. Is that because more cash is asked?-Perhaps it may be, and +it may also be from a greater readiness on the part of the dealers to +give it. I don't mean to say, by any means, that it is the rule to +make cash payments; but I say that the custom of making +occasional cash payments, at any rate, is getting more common. + +2135. Are you speaking from your experience your own business, +or do you speak generally?-I am speaking of my own experience, +but I presume that will be the experience of others in the trade as +well. + +2136. Formerly people did not use to ask for money at all?-No. +When I went first into the business it was never thought of. + +2137. At that time was the trade one of purchase, or was it one of +manufacturing for the merchant?-I think it was pure barter. + +2138. It was barter in either case, but was the trade usually carried +on by purchases from people who knitted their own wool?-I +think in former times it was altogether that. It is only within the +last twenty or thirty years that the women have been employed, so +to speak, by the merchants. It was about 1840 or 1841 that the +making of shawls began to get very common here; and about 1845 +or 1846 there was a very great demand for them. After that the +veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, and from 1852 to +1856 there was a very great trade done in veils. These are the +dates, so far as I recollect them. + +2139. Shawls and veils are the staple articles of the Lerwick +women's manufacture?-Yes; and they also make country hosiery +of different sorts. + +2140. That is the coarser hosiery?-Not necessarily coarser, but +stockings and fine underclothing for both ladies' and gentlemen's +wear. + +2141. Under the description of shawls I suppose you include the +cloaks which are made?-Yes; opera-[Page 42] cloaks, mantles, +and squares. There is a great variety of them made, in different +styles. + +2142. At present are you in the habit of giving cash whenever it is +asked?-I am. + +2143. Do you remember, during the last few years, of having +refused to give money to any person who asked for it?-I have no +recollection of doing so for a good many years back. + +2144. Have the people in your shop any instructions on that +point?-My assistants would not give cash without coming to me, +because such a transaction has to be entered in the cash-book. If +there was any cash to be paid, they would come to me for it, so +that I might enter it. It would not be paid out of the ordinary +shop-till, because we have to keep an account of it. + +2145. But they would be at liberty to purchase hosiery and pay for +it in goods without consulting you?-Either my brother-in-law or +myself would fix the prices. + +2146. Then none of your people have authority to purchase?- +No; they would not purchase without consulting me or my +brother-in-law. + +2147. So that either of the partners must be in the shop, or must be +consulted in every case of purchase?-Yes. + +2148. Do you give the same answer with regard to cases in which +parties employed by you are returning their work?-Perhaps any +small sums of money, such as 6d. or 1s., they might get in my +absence; but if it was anything larger that was desired, they would +be asked to wait until either I or my brother-in-law came in. + +2149. But in that case, if they wanted to take out the whole value +of the article, they might get it in goods, in the absence of you and +your brother-in-law?-Yes, they might. + +2150. Does it depend upon the state of their account, whether they +would get the whole value in goods or not?-No. Most of them +have been long known to us, and even if they were in debt (which +sometimes happens) to a small amount, it would not matter much, +if they wanted anything. I may mention, as an instance illustrating +that, that last night a girl called and asked me for some money to +pay the police assessment which had been charged upon her father. +She said her father was not able to pay it, and they had no money +in the house, and she asked for money to pay it with. Money is +often wanted in that way, and of course I gave it to her. + +2151. Had she a pass-book with her?-No; she just came in with a +small article of fancy knitting which she wanted to sell, and she +sold it and got the cash for it. + +2152. Did she get the full price in cash?-Yes. She told me what +she wanted the money for. Of course I did not ask her or insist to +know what the money was for, but she mentioned it incidentally. + +2153. How much was the price of that article?-It was a small +thing, 8s.-a pair of lace sleeves for ladies' under-dresses. + +2154. Would you say that that was a transaction of a very usual +kind?-No; I should not say it was very usual. + +2155. But if that had been asked at any time during the last three +or four years, would the same result have followed? Would she +have got the money?-I think so, with me, if the request had come +from the same person, or from a person who had been long +employed by us. + +2156. That case you have mentioned was one of sale?-Yes. + +2157. It was an article made with her own material?-Yes; it was +her own material and her own article altogether. I have just +mentioned it, as the latest thing of the kind that has occurred. + +2158. Do you know a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the +Asylum?-I think there are two Mrs. Williamsons in the Asylum: +there is a Mrs. Williamson who has been there since the Asylum +was opened, and there is another who has come there quite lately, +within the last twelve months. If the question you are to put has +anything to do with knitting, it will probably refer the last one. +The first Mrs, Williamson is in very good circumstances, and I +don't think she would be employing herself in that way. + +2159. I speak of one who knits with her own wool, and knits fine +articles.-I am sure to know her if she is an inmate of the Asylum, +though I could not just identify her at present. + +2160. Then you don't know whether she knits to you?-She does +not knit to me. + +2161. Or sells goods to you?-She may come into the shop to sell +goods as any other woman does, but I have no recollection of +anything of the kind. + +2162. Is there another Mr. Laurenson in Lerwick?-There is a firm +of R.B. Laurence & Co. + +2163. Do they sell provisions?-I don't know. + +2164. Do you sell bread?-I sell nothing except general drapery +stock, and the other articles I have mentioned. There is a Mr. +Laurence, a baker, and his sons are the firm of R. B. Laurence & +Co. + +2165. Does Mr. Laurence buy hosiery?-Not so far as I am aware. +He was in business as a hosier some years ago but he is now only a +grocer and baker. + +2166. Did you buy a shawl for 80s., about three months ago, from +a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-Not to my +recollection. If there is anything particular about the transaction, +that might enable me to remember it. + +2167. You did not purchase such a shawl, and pay part of the price +in bread?-No; I could not have done that. I may mention that the +name of the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co. is generally pronounced +by the people here in the same way as my own, they speak of them +as Laurenson, although their names are Laurence. + +2168. Have you sometimes paid large sums in cash for shawls?- +Very often, in separate transactions. I have frequently paid cash +down for particular shawls worth £2 or £2, 10s. I have given as +much as £5 in cash for a single shawl; but that, of course, was very +special article. + +2169. Would you make any objection to paying so much in +cash?-No; but I would be pretty sure the article was worth it. + +2170. In the case you have just now referred to, was it necessary +for the woman to make any particular representation as to her +wanting the cash before she could get it, or was she asked to take +the price in goods?-No; I did not ask her to do that. Probably +when she produced the article, she said she wished to sell it for +cash, and so the price was fixed. + +2171. Does a demand of that kind for payment in cash affect the +price for the shawl?-Certainly. We could not give so much in +cash as we could give in goods; and if a cash tariff were adopted, +there would have to be a general deduction made all round-a +deduction equivalent to the ordinary retail profit in the drapery +trade. + +2172. Do the sellers of these hosiery goods to you understand that +if they demand cash they must take a smaller price?-Yes, they +understand that; and they would be quite prepared to take it. + +2173. Is it quite understood that there are two prices for these +articles-a cash price, and a price in goods?-Yes; I think that is +quite understood. Of course, if a woman comes in with a shawl +for which she is willing to take 20s. in goods, she would be equally +willing to take 16s. or 17s. in cash, because the difference between +the 16s. or 17s. in cash and the 20s. in goods represents the retail +draper's profit, which is supposed to run from 15 to 20 or 25 per +cent. on these articles. That is the case over all the kingdom. + +2174. Would not the result to the woman be, that if she took the +17s. in cash she would only be able to buy 17s. worth of goods +with it?-Well, that is true; but she might be requiring grocery +goods or meal, or some kind of articles that we don't keep in our +drapery shops. Of course there would be an advantage to her, +because she might be requiring the cash in order to help her in +paying her rent, or anything of that kind. + +2175. In that way, does it not come to be a disadvantage to the +women to take cash?-It cannot be a disadvantage if they require +it for these other purposes. [Page 43] It would not answer them at +all times to get drapery goods. + +2176. Is it an advantage to you, as a dealer in hosiery, to pay the +price of the hosiery in goods?-Of course it is an advantage to us, +as retail drapers, to sell as much of these goods as possible. + +2177. But is it any advantage to you, if by buying for cash you are +to get the same profit upon your hosiery goods on a re-sale of +them?-There is this to be considered: that if we were buying for +cash exclusively, then we would only buy such things as we were +actually requiring, either for orders which we had, or which we +thought were likely to sell; but according to the present system, +although I don't mean to defend it altogether, we might have a +pretty large stock, and have really no orders, and no immediate +prospect of selling them. At the same time, so long as it is a +system of barter or exchange, we can quite easily give goods of +one description over the counter in exchange for goods of another +description,-for this reason, that these goods of another +description, which are received in exchange, can be stored by us as +well as our drapery goods. At such times we would not be willing +to pay anything in cash. + +2178. Then what you mean to say is, that the opportunity of selling +your drapery goods is an inducement to you to increase your stock +of hosiery although the market may be unfavourable?-Exactly; +because we have already invested our cash in these drapery goods, +and we may just as well have that cash lying in Shetland hosiery as +in drapery goods, in many cases. + +2179. If you did not pay in goods, would the result be that you +might still purchase the hosiery, but at a much lower rate?-That +would be one result of it; and another result would be, that when +the Shetland hosiery trade was dead, as it very often is for many +months, we would have then to give up buying altogether. At the +same time, I don't say but what an entirely cash system would +ultimately be advantageous to both parties,-both to us as dealers, +and also to the women knitters. + +2180. In what way do you think that that?-I think it would +simplify the thing, and prevent a good many disagreeable +occurrences. In fact the present system is a complicated, +antiquated sort of thing; and I, for my own part, would be willing +if some plan could be adopted for introducing a cash system +altogether. It certainly would be simpler, and I have no doubt it +would ultimately come to be as convenient to us all; but you will +please to observe that the present system is just a continuance of +an old traditional system that we who are now in the trade found +existing when we came into it, and it is rather difficult to get it +changed. + +2181. Do you think it is any advantage for the women to be able to +get 20s. in goods rather than 16s. of cash?-It think it would be +better for the women to be always paid in cash. + +2182. For what reason?-Because they would then have the cash +at their own disposal, and they could do with it what they liked. +They might buy their goods from me or from any other body, just +as they pleased. + +2183. Do you think they could manage their cash better?-I don't +know, but at any rate they would be more independent. If they did +not choose to deal with me, they could go to any other shop where +they thought they could lay it out to better advantage. + +2184. Is it the fact that they cannot get the price of their goods in +cash just now?-I believe, as a general rule, that is quite true. I +have heard the evidence of two or three of the girls who have been +examined on previous days with regard to that. + +2185. I am speaking now entirely of the purchase system. I will +ask you something afterwards with regard to the system of knitting +with the merchants' own wool; but you understand that you have +hitherto been speaking about the system of purchasing?-Yes; +hitherto I have been referring to the exchange of articles over the +counter. + +2186. Your general observations have applied to both systems?- +Yes, to both. + +2187. Speaking then, in the meantime, about the purchase system, +there is now in point of fact a difficulty in getting cash?-There is +no doubt of that, because it is the custom of the trade, and has all +along been, that these hosiery articles should be paid for in goods. +That is known and understood on both sides. + +2188. Will you tell me exactly where the advantage to the woman +lies who sells her hosiery for 20s. in goods rather than for 16s. in +cash? Are these 20s. of goods worth more to her than 16s. in cash +would be-I mean, apart altogether from the question as to +whether she wants other goods than hosiery?-Is the money value +of the 20s. worth of goods greater than 16s. in cash?-The money +value of them cannot be greater, because the retail profit is +included in that. + +2189. Yes, but the money value to you is one thing, and the money +value to the woman may be another?-I assume, as a general rule, +that all the goods which the women take they are actually +requiring. + +2190. Is that the fact?-I heard some statements made here by +some witnesses yesterday, and I suppose they were quite correct, +since the women made them, but I was not aware of it before, that +they had to take goods and re-sell them afterwards. + +2191. You were not previously aware of the existence of such a +practice?-No; I was not aware of it until I heard it deponed to +yesterday. + +2192. You say there are periods of depression in the Shetland +trade?-Yes; for many months there is little or no demand for +Shetland goods, and at such times our stocks lie over and +accumulate. + +2193. In such a period of depression I presume that your prices, +whether in money or in goods, are lower than at other times?- +They naturally tend downwards, as in all other trades, because in +many cases we really don't want the goods. Having quite +sufficient and more than sufficient of the article, we don't want +any more of them; but very often we take them, just as you may +say, to oblige the women, and give them tea for them, or things +which they may actually be requiring, although we may have no +prospect of selling these articles for a year or so. + +2194. Is there not a difficulty in the trade also from the nature of +the articles which are made?-There is a very great difficulty in +that respect, owing to the want of uniformity in the articles, and +the great variety of them. You can never get two shawls alike; you +cannot even get a dozen pair of half-stockings alike. If you were +to get an order for twenty dozen socks of a particular colour, size, +and price, you would not be able to get that number of socks alike +in Shetland. + +2195. The result of that is, that you cannot give a large order?- +We cannot undertake to execute it; and it is only such houses in +the south as are acquainted with the Shetland trade, and who know +that, when they give an order for a certain quantity of goods, they +must get them varied in colour and in quality, and who make up +their minds for that, and don't expect anything else it is such +houses who generally deal in Shetland goods. + +2196. Does that fact, and the want of knowledge of that fact, +restrict the number of houses in the south with which you can +deal?-There is no doubt of it. Suppose an English house, who +had never done anything in Shetland goods before, were to send +down an order for a certain quantity of goods, they would expect +to get them as uniform as if they were sending that order to +Leicester, or any hosiery district in the south. + +2197. In what way does that affect the system of paying in +goods?-There are limits to the demand. It affects the market. +We don't have such a large market. + +2198. And it increases the inducement to merchants to make their +payments in the drapery goods which they sell, and upon which +they have another profit?-Exactly. + +2199. I suppose the reason for paying in goods is really, that you +manage to make two profits: the profit upon the drapery, and then +the profit upon the re-sale of the hosiery?-For the most part, we +have to be content with one profit. No doubt, like all other men, +we would be glad to make two profits if we could; but I think it is +a rule in the Shetland hosiery trade, that [Page 44] the dealer is +quite content if he gets the price for the hosiery goods which he +would have paid for them in cash, even with a very good discount +off; that is to say, with £10 worth of Shetland hosiery, for which he +had paid that sum in goods, he would be willing to sell them for +£10 in cash, and 5 per cent. off for cash. He would not expect to +get a profit on the hosiery also. + +2200. Do you mean to say that a lot of hosiery purchased for £10 +you would sell to a merchant in the south for £10, and give him 5 +per cent. discount besides?-Yes. + +2201. Then you would make a loss?-No; because we have paid +the £10 in goods at retail prices, and we have the retail profit on +them, which is more that 5 per cent. + +2202. You mean that you have a profit on the goods?-Yes; the +goods amounting to £10, for which we have got the hosiery. +Perhaps the profit on these goods is 15 per cent.; and if we sell the +hosiery afterwards for £10, and take off 5 per cent. for cash, we +still have 10 per cent. for our trouble. + +2203. That comes to this: that, keeping it apart from your trade in +goods, you make no profit upon the hosiery at all, but you will pay +5 per cent. discount to a wholesale merchant in the south for +paying it promptly?-Yes; and I believe, in some cases where the +dealers in Shetland don't have good connections in the south and +good markets, they generally sell at a much lower price. I believe +it is quite common in the Edinburgh auction-rooms for parcels of +Shetland hosiery to be exposed for sale, and sold at a rate much +lower than they could be sold for in Shetland. That, I suppose, is +done by dealers who are pressed for cash; and they have to sell +their hosiery stocks at any sacrifice, at what they can get for them, +because they cannot get them sold in the regular market at a profit. + +2204. Does it not seem to you that it would be a more reasonable +way, in such a state of matters, to reduce the price of your +hosiery?-It would be better to introduce a system of cash +payments. + +2205. But, whether there was a system of cash payments or of +payment in goods, would it not look better in your books, and +would it not be the natural way of dealing, to purchase the hosiery +only at such figures as would enable you to make a profit upon +it?-Yes; that would be better, decidedly. It might practically +make very little difference to the dealer; it would just be taking it +out of the one pocket and putting it into the other, but it would be +more business-like, and a simpler plan. + +2206. Is it not one result of that system, that as the merchant runs +two risks,-a risk upon the hosiery and a risk (not so great, but still +a risk) upon his goods,-he is obliged to make a larger profit upon +his goods than he otherwise would?-I believe that is so. + +2207. So that the goods are really dearer to the retail purchaser +here than they would be if another system were adopted?-I think + +2208. You say you are quite ready to adopt a system of cash +payments, and to carry it out if it were usual in the trade?-Quite +ready. + +2209. Is there any difficulty in a single house proceeding to act +upon that system?-There has been no proposal made for it. + +2210. Do you mean there has been no demand made for it by the +sellers of hosiery?-I mean there has been no proposal made +among the dealers in hosiery to adopt such a system; and it would +be difficult for one house to begin to attempt it unless there was +some plan agreed upon, and some tariff of prices. I think it would +be necessary, in the first place, to have some scale fixed. + +2211. Would the market not fix the prices just as it does in other +trades?-By and by I have no doubt it would; but what I mean is, +that at the beginning of the new plan, in the transition between the +present state and a new system of cash payments there would +require to be some sort of agreement. + +2212. With regard to those women whom you pay for working, do +you generally keep pass-books with them?-I don't think many of +them have them now. In fact, within the last seven years we have +not been very much in that branch of the Shetland hosiery trade. +We still have a few knitting to us in that way, and I think some of +them have pass-books. + +2213. How many women do you employ in that way?-I could not +say precisely, because for several years our shop-woman has +attended to that altogether, and the books which I have brought +with me are kept by her. I can give her name, and she will be able +to give any information that may be wanted on that subject. + +2214. What is her name?-Andrina Aitken. + +2215. I suppose your books will show at once the number of +people you employ in that way?-Yes, these books will show, but +I cannot say from memory how many there are. + +2216. Has not each woman whom you so employ a page in the +ledger?-I think, for the most part, they just settle for each article +as they bring it. If a girl or woman is knitting a shawl, she comes +in with it; there is a price put upon it, and she settles up there and +then for it. If there is a balance, whether for or against her, it is +noted up as at that date. We don't keep long accounts with them. + +2217. How is it noted?-It is noted in the book at the place where +the work is marked as having been given out. The balance is +stated there [produces book]. + +2218. What is that book?-We call it a work-book. + +2219. Is it kept as a day-book from day to day?-Yes. + +2220. Is that the only book you keep?-It is the only book used for +that purpose. + +2221. Therefore you keep accounts, because when a balance +stands against a woman you have to look back to where the +balance is?-Yes; and where work is given out again, the balance +is marked against her, that balance being agreed upon between the +shop-woman and her. + +2222. Is there any index to the names of the women in that +book?-No; the girl knows them all. + +2223. I see that the entries on two pages of it serve for a month?- +Yes; the entries from December 5 to January 2 are all on two +pages. These contain all our transactions with that sort of people, +and it shows that we have very few of them. + +2224. I see here an entry: 'December 5-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. +black mohair. D. 1s.-retd.' Will you explain that entry?-D. +means debtor. It means that the woman got supplies to the extent +of 1s. The 11/4 oz. black mohair was the worsted which she got at +that time to knit up. Then on the 21st she comes back and returns +it. At that time there is this entry: December 21-Barbara Hunter, +11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 6d. + +2225. What does 'retd.' mean in the first entry?-It means that the +work was returned on a certain day. The return would be made on +the 21st, when she got out the same quantity of additional stuff, +and then the balance is carried forward. + +2226. Are there any entries in your books showing how the D. 1s. +or the D. 1s. 4d. was made up?-No; I could not even tell what it +was for. + +2227. But it was a balance upon goods supplied to her?-Yes. It +may have been tea, or some small sums of cash, or anything. Our +shop-girl would go over it with her, and they would agree upon it +that this was the balance due at that time; and then, when she came +back with the work she had got out on the 21st, there would be +another balance. + +2228. Here is another entry: 'December 15-Christina Sinclair, 2 +oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 13s. 3d., D. 5s. 1d.-retd.' How +does it happen that, under the same entry and in the same line, +there are three separate sums?-The girl came on separate +occasions and got these supplies, and they have been, entered +separately. She has been back since then, because the work which +she got out at that time has been returned. + +2229. Then follows the entry: 'December 26 [Page 45]-Christian +Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 10d. (in pencil), D. 11s. 11d.' +The 11s. 11d. would be the balance on the previous three debtor +entries, and the 10d., I suppose, had been got subsequently?-I +presume it had been quarter it pound of tea for 10d. Christina +Sinclair lives in Hancliffe Lane. + +2230. Does she support herself entirely by knitting?-She lives +with her father. She knits a good deal on her own account, and +comes and sells it to us. These had been some veils and other +things, which she makes for us occasionally when she happens not +to have worsted of her own. + +2231. The 11s. 11d., I think you say, shows a balance upon goods +got by her?-Yes; I presume it is the balance, after deducting what +she got for that work. + +2232. What would she probably get for the work bestowed by her +upon 2 oz. black mohair?-I suppose that would make four or five +veils. Perhaps she might get 5s. Then, besides these little things +which are entered there, she might have got some things when she +was personally present, and the last balance would be struck upon +the whole. + +2233. I understand you to state quite distinctly that this book is the +only one in which entries are made of any transactions with +workers employed by you?-The only one. As I said before, we +do very little in that way now; and this represents the whole of it. + +2234. Do your sales to these women not appear in your shop +day-book?-No; these are the whole entries. If they get anything +when they come with their work, there is no entry made of it at all. + +2235. If a woman, either a knitter employed by you, or one who +sells to you, comes to your shop and has a large sum of money to +get, is it the practice that you do not pay her entirely in goods, but +give her an advance in cash; or is it sometimes your practice to +give her a line?-We don't give lines at all; but I may say that it is +very seldom any of them have very much to get. + +2236. If a woman has something to get and does not want goods, +do you make an entry of any kind to her credit similar to those +debtor entries against her?-I see here an entry: 'December 26- +Ann Anderson, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 5d., Cr. 7s. 6d.' That 5d. +has been got afterwards. + +2237. Then she could have come at any time and got that 7s. +6d.?-Yes; and more if she had wanted it. + +2238. That sum is probably standing to her credit yet?-Yes; she +has that to get just now. + +2239. If she had got it, in what way would it have been marked +out?-It would have been marked returned, and another entry +made of the new work which she had got. + +2240. I show you an entry in another part of the same book: what +does that mean?-It is a memorandum of the goods given to +women to dress. These are the goods given to Mrs. John Gifford. +They are marked down when they are given out, and when they are +returned they are marked out. There are more dressers than one. + +2241. Here is one entry: 'January 3-Mary Greig, Trondra, 9 oz. +black. D. 8d., Cr. 7s.' Was that a country girl?-Yes. + +2242. Is it not usual for country girls to take away all the value of +their goods when they come in with them?-I think that is +generally what they do; but sometimes, as in that case, the girl +does not seem to have been requiring anything. + +2243. You don't know whether that girl asked for money?-I +don't know; but the shop-girl would be able to tell. + +2244. You have no doubt that if she had asked for it, she would +have got it?-If she had asked for it, she would have got it; but, as +I have said before, it had been so long the custom not to pay +money, that they did not ask it, not expecting to get it. + +2245. Do you say that your profit upon your drapery goods is +calculated at about 15 per cent.?-I should say about 15 to 25 per +cent.; that is the ordinary retail profit over all. + +2246. Supposing you were to make a profit upon your hosiery +goods, what profit would you expect to get from your drapery +goods?-I understand that in the south the profit in the drapery +trade is generally estimated at 15 per cent. on an average. + +2247. And you make it vary here, according to the different goods, +at from 15 to 25 per cent.?-Yes. + +2248. Is that in order to cover your risk upon the hosiery?-Yes; I +should say so. It would be much better for us to sell for cash +down, with a smaller price, than to sell at a higher nominal price, +and to lie out of the money for perhaps a couple of years, and +perhaps run the risk of making a bad debt with the hosiery. I may +add that we sometimes do make bad debts to a pretty large +amount. Some years ago I lost £150 by one customer. + +2249. Was he a purchaser of hosiery?-Yes. + +2250. Show me any entry in this book relating to a shawl made for +you?-There [showing] is 7 oz. black, which was given to a +woman for a shawl which she is at present making. Here is +another, Mary Greig, who made a black shawl, and returned it. + +2251. Does the book show how much was the payment usually got +for the making of it?-She came back on 23d January, and she is +credited with the amount. She had 2s. to get when she got the +work to do. + +2252. And she has now 7s.; but the difference between 2s. and 7s. +does not show the payment to her?-No; because she might have +got more goods at the time, and there would be nothing put down +in the book then except the actual balance. + +2253. You don't know what goods she got?-No; but I have no +doubt the shop-girl will be able to tell. + +2254. Can you tell me what payment would be made to a worker +of that kind for such a shawl?-I think perhaps 10s. It depends a +good deal on the size of thread and on the style of knitting. Of two +shawls of the same size, and having the same weight of wool in +them, one may be worth 2s. 6d. more for knitting than another, on +account of the pattern the girl might put into it, and the style in +which it was done. + +2255. Then that shawl would be sent south, I presume?-We +might sell it here. + +2256. What do you consider the value of the material for that +shawl, 9 oz.?-That black worsted would have cost us in England +about 8s. a pound. + +2257. Then the worsted would come to about 4s. 6d. as the value +of the material?-Yes. + +2258. And 10s. for the work: that would be 14s. 6d.?-Yes. + +2259. And 6d. for dressing, or 15s. altogether?-Yes. + +2260. At what price would that shawl be invoiced to a customer in +the south?-It would depend upon whether it was to a wholesale +house or to a retail customer. We have to sell these goods at a +lower price to wholesale houses in the south, who have again to +sell them, than we would sell them for to others. + +2261. In that way there are two classes of customers?-Yes. + +2262. Who are your principal correspondents in the south?-[The +witness shows the names in a book.] This is the day-book, which +we use exclusively for our transactions in hosiery with the south. +That book has just been finished. The last entry is 6th November +1871, and since then our entries as to hosiery sent south have gone +into our ordinary shop day-book: we have not provided a separate +book for them. + +2263. You say that you have two classes of customers, wholesale +and retail?-Yes; we have wholesale customers, such as these +houses whose names I have pointed out to you. We also sell to +private persons, and of course we must make a difference. We +must sell to these wholesale houses at a much less figure, because +they have again to sell them perhaps to the very same retail +customers. + +2264. At what price would that shawl of Mary Greig's be invoiced +to the south?-It is not away yet but I think I will be able to find +some of the same [Page 46] kind. It is very difficult to say what it +would be, because there is such a difference in the quality of the +worsted, and the price of the raw material differs a good deal. For +instance, here is black Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound, +and here is black mohair wool, 27s. a pound. It would cost us +roughly about 2s. an oz.; but that shawl, I should say, would be of +Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound. That [showing an entry +of a shawl invoiced to a house in London at 20s.] would be +something like it. I may mention that an account like that won't +be paid for eighteen months, and then it will be paid with a +discount of 5 per cent. + +2265. Is that a fair specimen of the average sales of shawls?-Yes. + +2266. And the average difference between the cost for materials +and workmanship?-Yes. + +2267. Do you pay the freight?-The consignee pays the freight. + +2268. Is this day-book a copy of your invoices which you send to +these houses?-Yes. In some cases we copy the invoices in a +letter-book, and then re-write them into this day-book. I can +produce the letter-book if you wish to see it. + +2269. Does not that difference between the price marked in the +book and the price you have to pay for materials and workmanship +show something in the shape of profit?-Yes, undoubtedly. + +2270. Then how do you reconcile that with your previous +statement, that there is really no profit upon your hosiery?-I don't +think I meant to say that there really was not a profit. What I +meant to say was, that, as a rule we would be very well pleased, on +an average of all our hosiery goods, just to get what we pay for +them. Of course, if you take out a special article here and there, +the rule might not hold good; but I think, on the whole, you will +find the result to be as I stated. + +2271. Do you make any distinction, in your statement with regard +to profits, between those cases where an article has been made for +you and those in which it has been purchased by you?-I think, as +a rule, the articles which we purchase or exchange over the +counter are generally sold by us just for what we have paid for +them. The others we have a good deal more trouble about. The +raw material has to be ordered, and the money paid for it pretty +soon; and then it has to be given out, and these accounts kept, and +the articles have to be dressed. In fact we have three or four times +the trouble about articles of that description which we have with +regard to articles that we buy in exchange. + +2272. Do you make that profit upon the goods made to your order, +by charging a higher price to your customer in the south, or by +paying a smaller rate to the women who knit for you?-The rate +we pay the work-women here depends on what the other dealers in +town are paying. I suppose we all pay much about the same rates. + +2273. But I don't see how the same articles if made by one of your +own work-women, can be charged at a different price to your +customer in the south from what it would be if it were purchased +by you across the counter?-As I have said, we have much more +trouble with it. + +2274. But the customer in the south fixes the price; and you cannot +give articles that are really the same in quality at a different price, +in consequence of the way in which they have come into your +hands?-No; but on some articles we must have less profit than on +others, and we must just make the one balance the other. + +2275. But your customer would object to take two identical +articles at different prices?-No doubt he would; but such articles +as these black shawls we never buy over the counter. In fact I +don't think I ever did buy one in that way; they are always made to +order. We bring in the raw material, and the women knit it up. +The material of which these black shawls are made is not Shetland +wool. The women don't have it. Of course they could get it if +they chose to buy it in the shops: we would sell it to them just the +same as anything else. + +2276. Do you purchase stockings?-Yes. + +2277. You don't have them made?-No; they are all bought over +the counter. + +2278. Are they generally paid for in goods?-Yes; I may say +universally. + +2279. Are they made by the people in the country rather than by +those in Lerwick?-There are very few made in Lerwick; all the +hosiery proper is made in the country districts. When I speak of +the hosiery proper, I mean stockings. + +2280. What do you call the other kind?-Under-clothing. Articles +such as shawls, veils, neckties, and the like, we call fancy work. +Then there is under-clothing-men's under shirts, gentlemen's +drawers, ladies sleeve, ladies' under-dresses, ladies' drawers +ladies' spencers, which are worn under the clothing. + +2281. I see in your day-book a charge for half dozen white veils, +12s., that is, 2s. each: is not 2s. a high price for veils?-It depends +very much on the quality. + +2282. Would that be an average quality?-No; it is a good quality. + +2283. Were these purchased or made to order?-I could not say as +to that particular lot. The best veils may be specially made or they +may be bought. We very often buy veils in the ordinary retail way +over the counter, and give 2s. 6d. for them; but these would be +particularly well knitted. + +2284. Do you give so much as 2s. 6d. for veils?-Yes, for the +finest quality. + +2285. Then these 2s. veils were sent to a retail house?-Yes; but +of course they are buying from us, and we are selling to them, and +they get 5 per cent. off that. + +2286. What might be the price of these veils to you?-Perhaps +18d. or 20d. + +2287. Is there anything else that you wish to state about the hosiery +trade?-Nothing that I recollect of, particularly; but I may perhaps +be allowed to refer to some of the answers given to questions by +the witnesses who were examined before the Commission in +Edinburgh. In question 44,156, Mr. George Smith is asked, 'Who +supplies them (the knitters) with the wool?'-and he replies, 'That +is a very difficult question. They get it chiefly from the small +farmers, and sometimes from the merchants?'-I don't see why +Mr. Smith should have said that that was a difficult question. +There was no difficulty in it whatever. + +2288. Where do the knitters generally get their wool?-In the case +of the country girls, their families sometimes have sheep running +on the scattald, and the wool is their own property, and is spun by +some member of the family. + +2289. Are there people in the country who collect wool from a +number of families and give it out to spin?-I believe, in some +districts of the country, there are dealers who buy up the wool and +sell it out again as wool. I was to say that the knitters can buy it +from them also, or from their neighbours. These are the three +ways in which they can get it. + +2290. Is the greater part of the wool that is used in Shetland of +native production?-Yes; the greater part of it is, except the +Bradford and English manufactured wools, principally black +mohair and alpaca. + +2291. Is much of that sold to women who knit on their own +account?-I do not know if there is much sold; but in my own +case, if they came to me wanting it, and I had it in stock, they +should have it, whether they paid for it in cash or got it put to their +account. + +2292. If a woman came to you and sold a shawl, and wanted part +of the price of it in worsted, would she get it without any +demur?-Certainly. + +2293. Do you know whether objections are made by any of the +merchants to that being done?-I have seen it stated in the +evidence that there are such objections. + +2294. But, apart from the evidence before this Commission, do +you know from your own knowledge, or from the statements of +people in Shetland, whether there has been a difficulty in getting +worsted for knitting in that way?-Yes, I have heard that. + +2295. Do you know from what that difficulty arises?[Page 47]-I +do not; unless it is because the dealer thinks that worsted is an +article on which he does not have so much profit as on other +goods, and is unwilling to give it. + +2296. There has been no difficulty of that kind in your shop at any +time?-No, none. + +2297. Is there any reason why, in dealing with knitters, worsted +should be called a money article or a ready-money article, which +was only sold to them for money?-The Shetland worsted, which +is generally spun in the north isles, in North Yell and Unst, is +almost always bought and paid for in cash. It has always been the +custom, at least for many years,-I should say for fifteen years,- +that when the women come down from the north isles with +worsted and sell it either to private persons or in the shops, they +are paid for it in cash at the rate of 3d. or 31/2d. or 4d. per cut of +nominally 100 threads, which in reality, when counted, runs to 80 +or 90. I have seen a cut of worsted for which you paid 8d. +supposed to be 100 threads, which when counted was only found +to be 55; but that was an extreme case. + +2298. But that wool is obtained by merchants or other persons who +want it, from Shetland women coming mostly from the north +isles?-Yes; where it is principally manufactured. + +2299. Is the price of it always paid to them in cash?-As a rule, it +is. Perhaps there may be exceptions, but, as a rule, it is paid in +cash. + +2300. Is that assigned in the trade as a reason why, when it is sold +out to other women, it should be paid for by them in cash?-I +should say that that was the reason, because there would be no +profit on it otherwise. For instance worsted for which a dealer +paid 31/2d. a cut would be sold by him at the same price; and if he +gave it in exchange for goods, he might be out of his money for +weeks or months. + +2301. Does he not get more than 31/2d. for it when selling it?-I +don't think it. There is a sort of fixed price for the various +qualities of it. + +2302. Does he not make a profit on retailing it?-No; I think not. +He would either refuse to sell it at all, or give it at the price at +which he bought it. + +2303. Then his purchase of the worsted must have been made +primarily for the use of the knitters employed by him?-Yes, I +believe so. + +2304. So that selling it to those women who knit on their own +account would be a little out of his ordinary way of business?- +Yes. + +2305. He does not profess to get it for that purpose?-No. It is the +raw material brought in by him or bought by him for his own uses. + +2306. Is it wool or worsted you are speaking of?-Worsted. +Before it is carded and spun we call it wool; after it is carded and +spun we call it worsted. + +2307. It is brought in the shape of worsted?-Yes. + +2308. So that all you have been speaking of is really worsted?- +Yes. + +2309. Is much of that sent south from Shetland by the merchants in +the shape of worsted?-Not much, I should say. It is more +profitable, of course, for dealers and knitters to make it up, as all +the raw material would come to would be comparatively +trifling. + +2310. Then you are not in the habit of sending it south in the shape +of worsted?-No. In fact it is difficult to get. Sometimes we get +an order for a small quantity for the south, for darning purposes. +When a customer orders a dozen or two dozen socks, he will ask +for some worsted along with them for that purpose; but it is not +easy sometimes to get that for him. I was to refer to one or two +other questions in the previous evidence. In question 44,289 Mr. +Walker is asked, 'These merchants have no hold over them as +being their tenants?'-and he replies, 'Not in the town, except in +very few instances; not as a rule.' Now I don't know what +instances he refers to. For my own part, I cannot imagine how any +of us Lerwick dealers can have any hold on the Lerwick knitters, +because they can come to us or any other body, just as they please. + +2311. None of them are your tenants?-No; but even if they were, +I don't think it would matter. + +2312. If their rent were in arrear, would the merchant not have a +hold over them?-He, as their landlord, would just have the same +redress as any other landlord would have. Then the next question +is, 'Is it considered a lucrative business?-Oh ! immensely so.' + +2313. You have already made a statement with regard to that +answer; at least you have explained what the profit is?-Yes; but +he says, 'I know for a fact, that the worsted of a shawl which sells +at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s.' Now that is quite incorrect, +because with the very lowest price of worsted the cheapest would +be at least 4s. 6d.; but for a shawl selling at 30s. the worsted of it +would certainly cost me 10s. + +2314. Do you mean the worsted of any shawl that would sell for +that in the south market or to a south country merchant?-Yes, or +to any customer here. We sell a good many of these shawls to +ladies in Lerwick, or to any people who come in to buy them; and +any shawl that would sell for 30s. the worsted of it would cost 9s. +or 10s. + +2315. How much would the workmanship of a 30s. shawl come +to?-Perhaps 12s., and sometimes more. Sometimes we give as +high as 15s. for it. We paid 17s. 6d. last week for making a fine +shawl. Then he says, A good deal of the worsted is now made in +England, and brought down to Shetland. + +2316. Is there much worsted imported from England?-Yes. Mr. +Walker says further, 'The demand is so great for the Shetland +goods, that it (the worsted) is made in Yorkshire, and brought +down at 8s. a pound; and a quarter of a pound of that worsted will +make a large shawl.' That is a mistake, because nothing less than +half a pound of worsted of that quality could by any possibility +make a shawl. + +2317. Is 8s. per pound a correct statement of the price?-For some +qualities it is. There is a great variety of qualities. The qualities of +Pyrenees and mohair and alpaca wools go by numbers, and +according to fineness the numbers rise. + +2318. Can you mention the various prices at present?-7s. and 8s. +per pound for blacks and whites; 9s. and 10s. for scarlet and +ingrained colours. + +2319. That is for Yorkshire wool?-Yes, of the finer descriptions; +and then mohair and alpaca will range from 20s. to 24s. and 30s. + +2320. I thought you said 32s. before?-Yes; and I have no doubt +some of the numbers are even higher. + +2321. I suppose there is not much variety in the size of shawls used +for opera-cloaks or dress purposes?-No, they are all made about a +size; but the value does not depend so much upon the size as upon +the style of the workmanship. + +2322. It will also depend to some extent on the quality of the +wool?-Yes, to some extent. + +2323. But principally on the workmanship?-Yes, it depends in +great measure on that; and that is the reason why there are constant +disputes with the knitters. Two knitters may come in with two +shawls made of the same material and the same size and yet the +one will be 25 per cent. better than the other, on account of the +work bestowed upon it, and the niceness of the pattern; but it is +very difficult to get these girls to understand that they should be +paid according to that. + +2324. Can you show me any instance of a shawl made of +Yorkshire wool for which you paid 20s.? That would be rather a +fine quality, would it not?-Yes; that would be mohair or alpaca. + +2325. But not the finest quality?-No, not the finest. + +2326. We may take that as an average quality. You said it would +take about half a pound of material to make the shawl; but you +also said that the finer the wools are, the less thread it takes to +make them. How much would it take to make a shawl of that +kind?-Perhaps it would take 6 oz. + +2327. That would be about 7s. 6d. for the material?-Yes; but a +great deal depends on the way in which [Page 48] it is knitted. It +is almost impossible to say, except with a very special article, what +the knitter would get for it, because this is not like a uniform trade +at all. + +2328. Then you fix the price to the knitter according to the +judgment of your eye?-Yes, after the work is brought back. +Properly speaking, every shawl requires to be priced individually. + +2329. Between what sums would you say that the price of the +workmanship of a shawl made of that sort of stuff would vary?- +That depends entirely on the workmanship itself. Some of the best +knitters we have in town put very high prices on their work. + +2330. I am assuming that it varies; but there must be a limit to it. +Can you not give what would be about the average?-I will give +an instance. About a fortnight ago I bought a shawl from a girl for +35s., made of common Yorkshire wool. It was her own material, +and she just came in with it, and sold it over the counter. The +material of that shawl, for which I gave her 35s., had not cost her +4s. It was a half-square shawl. It is still lying in the shop, and I +can produce it if it is desired. The whole value of that article +depended on the workmanship contained in it. + +2331. Is it a black or white shawl?-White. It is not even fine +Shetland worsted, which is the most valuable sort of thing. + +2332. Is fine Shetland worsted more valuable than the other +worsted at 32s?-Yes, we can always get a better price; and +indeed the article is much more valuable when made of fine white +Shetland wool than of fine white English wool, because there is a +hardness and coarseness in the English wool that is not in the +Shetland. + +2333. But you don't pay so much as 32s. per pound for Shetland +wool in any case?-No, I doubt think we pay so much as that for +it, but the Shetland wool is more rare. The supply of it is limited. +You can get any quantity of mohair or alpaca, but you cannot get +any quantity of fine Shetland wool. + +2334. Do you purchase that quality of fine Shetland wool to any +extent?-I buy some of it. I have paid as high as 6d. a cut of +nominally 100 threads for it; but that was a rare article. 4d. per cut +is the usual thing. + +2335. How much is that per pound?-We don't reckon the +Shetland worsted by the pound. + +2336. But as you do so little business in giving out work, I suppose +you don't purchase great quantities of the Shetland wool for your +own use?-No. + +2337. Is there any other part of the evidence you wish to refer +to?-There is another question, 44,301, where Mr. Walker is +asked, 'Is it all done through the middle-man?'-referring to the +buying of woollen goods: he says, 'Through the merchants. Then, +in considering the hosiery matter, when you leave the town, you +come to the middle-men, merchants, or merchant factors, or +merchant proprietors; in which case the knitters are their tenants. +All worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken +surreptitiously or on the sly.' I wish to remark with regard to that, +that I never heard of such a thing until I saw it here. + +2338. Are there hosiery merchants and worsted merchants in the +country?-Yes, here and there. + +2339. Do they possess any hold over the knitters?-I suppose in +some cases they will be factors for the proprietors, and these +knitters will be living in family with the tenants who have the +holdings. + +2340. Do you know any instance of such hosiery merchants being +proprietors in the country?-I don't know about them being +proprietors. + +2341. Or factors for proprietors?-I suppose Spence & Co., in +Unst, are in that position. + +2342. Are they hosiery merchants?-They deal extensively in +hosiery; and I understand they are factors or lessees or the greater +part of the island. + +2343. But the other fish-curers generally are not hosiery +merchants?-I think not, as a rule. + +2344. Then you deny that, as a general rule, knitters are bound in +any way to sell to dealers in the country?-I never heard of such a +thing before especially this statement, that all worsted goods taken +and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously. That may be +true, but I never heard it till I read it in this evidence; and I don't +believe it is true. + +2345. Do you often send orders to the country?-Yes; we send +orders to the merchants in the country for hosiery just the same as +we order goods from the south, and the merchants in the country +make them up. + +2346. Do they have their profit on the hosiery in the first +instance?-I suppose so. We pay them in cash. + +2347. And you have a commission or a profit in your turn?-Yes, +we must have that otherwise it would be no object for us to buy the +articles. + +2348. Is there any other point in the previous evidence which you +wish to mention?-I don't think there is anything else. + +2349. Is there any other correction you wish make upon that +evidence, or upon the evidence which has been taken here, so far +as you have heard it?-No. I heard the evidence of several of +these knitting women, and I have no reason to doubt its general +correctness. + +2350. Is it the case that the knitters are more commonly in debt to +the merchant than the other way,-that they are generally rather +behind in their accounts with him?-In my own case, I don't think +that is so, at least not to any extent. + +2351. In a bad season do they not fall behind, and require credit to +some extent from the merchant?-I don't think that obtains very +much with the knitters. It would obtain more with the fishermen +and heads of houses. + +2352. But if a woman is depending entirely on knitting for her +livelihood, and the prices of provisions are high, while at the same +time the prices for knitted goods may happen to be low, is it usual +for a merchant to make advances to her in goods or, in cash?- +There being no system of cash payments, I would not say that I +would make advances of cash to her. + +2353. But would the merchant, in such a case, make advances to +her in goods?-He probably would. We know most of these +knitting girls, and we would not see them at a loss for anything +they actually required. I believe most of the dealers would be +ready to help them in that way. + +2354. Does that come to be any inducement to the knitting women +to sell their goods to particular merchants afterwards, or to submit +to take their payments in goods when, in other circumstances, they +would prefer to have them in cash?-I think, in many cases, if they +were in debt to me, they would not scruple very much at walking +off and dealing with some other body afterwards, and leaving my +debt to take its chance; for they know there would be no legal +proceedings taken-no summoning, or anything of that kind. I +never heard of any case in Lerwick where a knitter was summoned +for any balance which she was due. + +2355. Perhaps the balances generally are so small, that it is not +worth the merchants' while to summon the women for them?-I +daresay that is the case. I have been told that one of the witnesses +yesterday, Mrs. Arcus, referred to the state of the trade in my late +fathers time and said it was better then, because the women who +made these goods were in the habit of getting meal and groceries +from my father for them. + +2356. Was that actually the case?-It was. For a great many years +my father kept meal, barley, rice, sugar, soap, tea, and all sorts of +provisions; but the consequence was, that when newer dealers +came into the trade, and went more extensively into the drapery +goods, then the knitters and people selling for drapery came more +upon my father for groceries, on which there was a much smaller +profit; and of course that put us to a great disadvantage. The +consequence was, that we gradually gave up the grocery part of the +trade. I believe that is the explanation of the statement, which I +daresay was quite correct. + +2357. Of course there are some women who live entirely by +knitting? Can you explain how they supply themselves with food +if they are paid entirely or almost entirely with goods? Have you +turned your [Page 49] attention to that point at all?-No, I must +say I was rather astonished to hear some of the evidence which has +been given here, although, I have no doubt it was quite correct. It +had not occurred to me that some of these women were under such +conditions as it appears they are. + +2358. However, you have not turned your attention to that +point?-No, but I have no doubt that what they said was quite +correct; and perhaps there is a grievance there which ought to be +remedied. I show you an entry in my invoice-book of a dozen +gentleman's drawers sold for 48s., which is exactly the price paid +for them in goods. My customer does not pay for eighteen months, +so that I lose the interest for that time; and there is also 5 per cent. +off at the end of the eighteen months. The two next items are in +precisely the same position. They are charged at the nominal +prices which we have paid for them in goods. + +2359. The long credit which you give, in that case, arises from the +state of the market in London?-Yes; these London houses are +generally long in paying. + +2360. But cannot you get your customers here, from whom you +buy the goods, to take less for them?-No, we don't require to do +that. I believe that when a woman makes a pair of drawers, or +anything else that kind, she cannot be paid for them with less than +4s. + +2361. Is that an article in which you deal extensively?-Yes; we +buy a good many of them, but it is an article on which we have no +profit. + +2362. A statement has been made in this inquiry, that the success +of a merchant in Shetland consists in being able to accumulate +such an amount of bad debts about him as thirls the whole families +in a neighbourhood to him, and then he gets on: do you concur in +that statement?-I think that statement must have been intended as +a burlesque. I cannot understand how any man could thrive by +accumulating a large amount of bad debts. I read the statement at +the time, but I could not understand it. + +2363. It can only mean this: that the man has a number of debts +which his debtors have difficulty in paying, but that they are in the +course of earning money year after year and that they are +compelled to spend entire earnings in is shop: do you think that is +the case?-I can only say that in my own business I make a point +of making as few debts as possible, and never any bad ones. To +make bad debts I should consider a misfortune rather than a piece +of good luck. + +2364. But they may not be bad debts, although payment of them +may be delayed for a long time. It is perhaps a misnomer, to call +them bad debts?-Yes I should say so. + +2365. I understand you were engaged at one time in the whaling +agency business?-Yes, for some years. My brother-in-law and +partner managed that part of the business; and he purposes to +come forward and give some evidence, and produce books which +he kept at that time. We went out of that trade last spring. + + +Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, examined. + +2366. You are the principal partner of the firm of Robert Sinclair +& Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am the sole partner of that firm. + +2367. Your stock, I understand, consists of drapery goods and +tea?-Drapery, millinery, boots and shoes, tea, and various other +articles. I also keep various kinds of groceries-not many; but +there are tea, soap, soda, and blue. + +2368. You do not keep provisions?-Not provisions. + +2369. Do you keep sugar?-No; I do not sell sugar now. + +2370. Besides that trade, you are employed in the purchase and +sale of hosiery?-I am. + +2371. Your hosiery is obtained in two ways: either women that +knit upon your employment or from parties who come with their +own goods and sell them to you?-They are principally the latter. + +2372. How many women can you state, have been employed on an +average during the last three years in knitting for you with worsted +supplied by you?-I never was at the pains to reckon exactly the +number of knitters I had. I should suppose there would be on an +average from 80 to 100-sometimes more and sometimes fewer; +but that is only a guess. I have books here which will show it +exactly. + +2373. Are those women who knit for you paid generally in money, +or in goods; or is there an account between you?-There is always +an account kept with the knitters, and they are paid in cash or in +goods-principally in goods; but there is no objection to pay them +in cash when they want it. + +2374. Are your people instructed to pay in cash when cash is asked +for?-I never gave any direct instructions to that effect; but +occasionally they may pay in cash when they know a customer +well. If it is advances that are wanted, they would require to know +the character of the customer to whom the advances are made. + +2375. Do you mean to say that the question whether a request for +an advance is to be granted or not, depends upon the state of the +customer's account at that time?-Exactly, or mostly that. + +2376. Then, if a knitter has a considerable amount at her credit, +and wants money, is it the rule in your shop that she will get an +advance?-She will get an advance in money when she has it to +get; but we don't call that an advance,-it is a debt; and it has +been generally understood, as has been often stated, that it is goods +which they are to get for their work. That rule, however, has often +been departed from-more particularly lately. + +2377. You say there is an understanding they are to be paid in +goods, but that that understanding has been departed from?-Yes, +often. But the last question put to me was a double one. With +regard to the other part of it,-as to them having a large amount at +their credit,-the fact is, that they seldom have anything at their +credit, but when the goods come in, they have to be entered to +their credit, to make up for advances which they received when +they were knitting. That is the rule, but there are several +exceptions to it. + +2378. As a general rule, has a knitter got more goods from you +than the value of her work?-Yes; she generally has got quite +equal to the value of it, and frequently more. + +2379. You say that she has either got more goods than the value of +the hosiery which she brings, or she has got at least up to the value +of the work returned?-Yes; generally. + +2380. Have you formed any idea as to whether the kind of goods +which you supply to your knitters consists to a greater extent of +articles of ordinary dress, such as cotton, and dress stuffs, and +boots and shoes, or of millinery, and the finer articles which you +deal in?-They consist principally of strong usable wearing +apparel, boots and shoes, and other things that are generally +required for domestic purposes or for their own wear. + +2381. You say that you have about 80 or 100 women engaged +knitting to you?-I only guessed that. I think there must be more. + +2382. Is the system of dealing with the whole of these, that an +account is kept?-Yes. + +2383. Is that account kept in a pass-book with the knitter?-Not +always. When they want a pass-book, they get it. You can see +from that book [producing work-book], who have pass-books and +who have not. + +2384. Has every knitter a separate page in your work-ledger?- +Yes; the book speaks for itself. + +2385. It may be convenient for both of us if you take the case of +Jemima Sandison just now, whose passbook I have got here. Is +that pass-book an exact copy of the page in her name in your +ledger?-Yes; the entries in both are made, at the same time. She +brings the pass-book when she wants any article and the entry is +made in the work-book at the same time as in the [Page 50] +pass-book. Unless there is any error in summation or date, the +one should be an exact transcript of the other. + +2386. Is it generally known by you or your shopkeeper whether +there is a sum at the credit of the worker, or whether the account +stands the other way?-After they have gone on for a while, and +when they come in with any work, of course we square up the +books and examine them. + +2387. In adding up Jemima Sandison's book, I find from +November 11, 1870, to December 28, 1871, the amount of goods +and cash supplied to her was £3, 5s. 3d.?-Yes; but there is +something I may explain with regard to this particular case. All +the work she has done does not appear here. If she wants to get +wool or any other article, she can get it out of the shop on bringing +goods for it, and that does not appear in the book. She sells the +goods to us when she has made them, and gets either cash or goods +for them according she wishes. That book does not show all our +transactions with her. + +2388. Some of them may be ready-money transactions?-Not +ready-money, but private transactions, that do not appear in the +books at all, because the book only contains the goods she gets +from us, and for which she returns knitted work. She is paid for +the knitting of these goods, and not for the whole value. + +2389. How do you distinguish, in that case, between the goods that +go into the pass-book and those which she gets, but which do not +enter the pass-book?-There is no occasion to distinguish between +them at all, because they are separate transactions. + +2390. When she comes with a separate article to sell, how do you +do?-Suppose a time when trade is dull, as Mr. Laurenson has +explained, and we are not making falls (which is the principal +thing this woman makes for us), we try to keep her in work by +giving her out material, and she makes anything else with it that +she likes. We do not enter that in the book at all. She makes it for +herself. We may buy it from her, or she may go and sell it to +another if she likes; or she, may have a private order for it, and sell +it in that way. These transactions do not appear in the book. + +2391. But when she comes to you, and you do happen to buy an +article in that way from her, is she paid for it to a certain extent in +goods?-Yes, if she wants them. + +2392. These goods are not entered in the day-book?-Of course +not. + +2393. You just deliver there to her across the counter, in the same +way as you would deliver them to any party who came in to make +a ready-money transaction?-Yes. + +2394. If she does not want exactly the value of goods which will +pay for her shawl, or for any other article which she may have +brought to you, do you enter the balance in any book?-No; we do +not enter it in the book, except in the line-book. We give her a +receipt for the balance, and we give her the balance in cash or in +goods at any other time. + +2395. If she wishes money for the balance, is it usual thing in your +trade to pay it in money?-The fact is that we never refused her +money when she asked it. She stated that in her evidence. + +2396. That may have been the case with this particular woman, but +is it the fact that any knitter who wants a balance of that kind in +money is able to get it?-If she has bargained to take goods, and if +the price we put on the article be such that we cannot give money +on it without making a loss by it, then we don't give the money: +we stick to the bargain. If the bargain has been such that it would +allow us any little profit on it, then we give it all in money, if they +want it in that way. + +2397. The question whether she is to get money or goods for the +balance, depends on the bargain which the woman has made?- +Yes; decidedly. + +2398. Can you tell me any case in which you have paid the whole +price for hosiery goods in money?-I could tell you many cases of +that kind, For instance, I could mention the case of Miss Gifford. + +2399. What was the transaction you had with her?-My last +transaction with her-indeed I have only had one for a long +time-was for a shawl which bought from her; and paid all cash +for it. + +2400. When was that?-About three months ago. + +2401. What was the price?-The price of the shawl was £4, and I +gave her four £1 notes for it. + +2402. Was not that a very valuable shawl?-Yes but I would rather +have taken it and paid money for it, than I would have given barter +for a thing that might lie on my hands until the moths eat it. + +2403. The quality of the thing was so good, that you wanted to +have it at any price?-Yes, and I could charge a small profit on it; +but I cannot do that on the great bulk of the things I get. + +2404. Did you pay for that in cash because it was an exceptional +article?-I paid for it in cash because I wanted it. I would do the +same for anything I wanted; but when goods are forced upon us, +and goods asked for them, we cannot be expected to put our hands +into the till and pay out cash for them. + +2405. Are goods forced upon you?-Yes. + +2406. Have you no option but to buy them?-No. That is not the +meaning of my words. I do not mean that we are forced to buy +them, in that sense. I mean, that people come in importuning us to +buy goods which we do not want. + +2407. You do buy them, however?-Sometimes, and sometimes +not. + +2408. Is it in consequence of the importunity of your customers +that you buy them?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. + +2409. But you say that sometimes you are forced by the +importunity of your customers to buy their goods?-Yes; we may +be induced to do it by an importunate woman. + +2410. And when the importunity is so great that you are +constrained to buy them, are these the cases in which you pay in +goods?-No; the people often don't want the cash. They don't ask +for it. They come to us with the general understanding that the, +trade is done in goods-I mean in barter. + +2411. Do you say the general understanding is that the payment is +to be in goods, and also that you have sometimes to buy goods +because you are importuned to do so?-Decidedly. I say I do buy +them sometimes, because I cannot get rid of the customer +otherwise, but these are exceptional cases. + +2412. Is it because of the importunity, or because it is the general +custom, that the payment is in goods?-That has been a tradition +from time immemorial. + +2413. But you have assigned the fact of paying in goods to both of +these causes, and I wish to know which of them it is that you really +refer it to?-It is sometimes the one and sometimes the other. + +2414. But you are not obliged to buy hosiery and pay with goods +unless you like?-Not at all; nor for money either. What I stated +was, that I would rather pay in cash for a good article which I can +sell again, than purchase a thing on barter that I have a great risk in +selling. That is the whole import and purpose of what I said. + +2415. You instanced one transaction,-that which you had with +Elizabeth Gifford?-Yes; and there is another girl, Catherine +Brown, who is in Leith just now, from whom I bought a great +number of shawls, and paid her cash down for them. + +2416. Was that long ago?-It has gone over a number of years. + +2417. Was your reason for paying the cash the same in that case: +because the articles which you got from her were good?-Yes; +they were prime articles. + +2418. Is there any one else you wish to mention?-There are many +cases in which I paid cash for hosiery articles, although I could not +name the persons just now. They were people whose faces I knew, +but I cannot recollect their names. + +2419. Were these cases in which you paid the whole value in +cash?-Yes. + +2420. Did these transactions enter your books?-No; the cash was +just paid for them at the time. + +2421. Do you take no notice of the cash paid out in [Page 51] that +way?-Not generally. I don't that there is any special entry in the +cash-book showing what it had been paid for. + +2422. Don't you take a receipt from such persons?-No, I never +did. + +2423. Then how do you know the price at which to sell these +shawls?-Because I put the prices on the shawls myself. + +2424. Do you mark them all at the time?-Yes. + +2425. And you swear that no entry of such a payment enters into +any of your books?-I swear that, to my knowledge, there is no +memorandum taken of a cash transaction carried through in that +way. With regard Elizabeth Gifford, I may explain that I gave her +a receipt for a shawl to be paid for in cash, and she came to my +shop some time afterwards and got the cash. + +2426. Then that cash entered your book?-Yes. Here is the entry +[produces line-book]: 'C. M. 95. 1. 11.71. Paid in cash, 80s. £4.' + +2427. How do you know that is the transaction?-Because it is the +only transaction of the kind that is in the book, it is the only +transaction in which £4 was paid in cash. + +2428. Was that entry all made at one time?-The first part of it +was made when she brought the shawl. The date when she got the +line is not here. + +2429. Then it was on 1st November 1871 that she got the +money?-Yes. + +2430. The entry made at first was 'C.M. 95. 80s. £4?'-Yes. + +2431. And the figures '1. 11. 71,' and the words 'paid in cash,' +were inserted when the money was given?-Yes + +2432. There is no entry of the date of the issuing of the line at +first?-No; the book was not being dated then. + +2433. When did the book begin to be dated?-We have the date on +the line itself, and therefore it is quite sufficient to enter the +numbers of the lines in the book. + +2434. But when did the book begin to be dated?-On 30th +October. + +2435. Then it must have been a few days before 30th October +when the line was first given out?-Yes. + +2436. To come back to Jemima Sandison's book the total amount +supplied to her was £3, 5s. 31/2d. in period of thirteen months, and +there was a balance of 16s. to begin with. The amount that +appears to have been paid in cash during that time is 3s. 6d. on all +these transaction: is that so?-It may be; but I have ready +explained that the entries in the book do not represent all the cash +which she got from me. + +2437. She also appears to have got tea on thirty-seven different +occasions, in quantities of 8d., 9d., and 10d. worth at the time?- +Yes; that would be a quarter of a pound. + +2438. The amount of tea altogether comes to 5d. or more than +one-half of the total quantity of all that she got from you. If we +assume that she got a amount of tea as part of the previous balance +of 16s, there is thus only 8s. 6d. paid in cash, 30s. or more paid in +tea, and the rest paid in goods. Can you give me any idea whether +the amount of cash paid to this woman on the separate transactions +you have been speaking of would be greater or less than the +amount appearing in this book?-I could not swear as to what it +was, because we are transacting business of that kind with her very +frequently, and it is impossible to remember what amount of goods +or of cash she got on these particular transactions. I should say +that what the book gives about a fair average of what it might be +upon the other sales as well, or it might be that it would rather +exceed it; but I should wish to remark that she never was refused +the cash that was asked for by her. + +2439. Do you think the case of this woman Sandison may be taken +as a fair specimen of the accounts which you keep with the other +women employed by you?-No, there are exceptions; there are +some who got a good deal more cash than she did. + +2440. Was there any reason, in these other cases, for their getting +more cash?-Of course they asked for more and perhaps they +needed it. There are some who are equally dependent with her, +and who have perhaps less chances of getting money otherwise. +As I said, she sometimes makes to order, and gets cash from that +source. If you will take the case of Mary Ann Sinclair and her +sisters as it appears in the book, you will see that they got more +cash than Sandison did. + +2441. I see in Mary Ann Sinclair's account on 'September 30, +1868, cash 5s.; October 13, cash for meal 11s. 3d.; November 18, +cash 1s.; November 23, to paid William Smith for meal 5s. 4d.; +November. 27, cash 1s.' Do you give that as an average specimen +of the amount of cash that was paid?-There may be exceptional +cases; but I daresay, taking the whole thing, Sandison's pass-book +may be regarded as a fair specimen of the way in which the thing +has gone on. + +2442. In that account of Mary Ann Sinclair's which you have just +showed me there is an entry of 5s. 4d. paid to William Smith for +meal: who is William Smith?-He is a grocer in town. + +2443. Was that paid to him directly, or did the money pass through +the hands of the woman Sinclair?-I generally gave her the +money, and told her to go anywhere she liked with it; but in some +cases, if it happened that I did not have the cash on the counter, or +handy, she went to the same person that she used to deal with, or +to any one she wanted to go to, and got what she required, and I +paid the cash for it perhaps on the same day. + +2444. In what way was that transaction carried out? Did you give +her a line to go to Smith for the meal?-I don't think it. I have no +recollection of doing it. + +2445. Is that a common kind of entry in your book?-No. + +2446. There is another entry of 11s. 3d, for meal: would that be +paid to Smith or to the woman Sinclair?-I think it was paid to +herself. + +2447. Then why is it entered in your book as being for meal?- +Very often we did that in order to distinguish the things she +wanted the cash for, and to keep a check on them. For instance, +they might come in and ask cash from me and they would receive +it. + +2448. But why should you wish to keep a check on them in a case +like that?-I don't know. + +2449. Had you any interest in the way in which the woman was to +spend her money?-No; but if we paid cash to a person for one of +these women, we marked it down as having been paid. + +2450. Then when you put down this sum of 11s. 3d. for meal, did +that mean that you had paid the money to Smith or to some other +meal-dealer, or that you had paid the money to Mary Ann Sinclair +herself?-I cannot recollect. + +2451. I only want you to explain, if possible, or to suggest an +explanation if you don't remember, about how it happened that +that entry was made for meal. If the woman got it in cash, would +it not be simply marked down as cash?-I don't remember about +that. She might have got the meal from Smith, and paid him the +money at any time. She may have told us that she had to pay +Smith an account, and asked us to pay it for her. That is the only +explanation I can give of it. Sometimes she would ask to get a +little meal; and as we did not have meal, we would tell her to go to +anyone she liked and get it, and we would pay the party for it. I +may say, at the same time, that I did not have a fraction upon that. +There was no compact about in between me and the man who +supplied her with the meal. We just paid her account to him in +cash. + +2452. You don't remember either of these payments?-No; I +cannot remember them. + +2453 Do you know whether such entries are frequent in your +books?-They are not; there is no occasion for them being +frequent. + +2454. Does a woman often come and say to you, 'I want some +money to pay for meal or some groceries, and I wish you would +give me so much?'-No; I have no recollection of any other case +than the one which [Page 52] has been referred to. There may +have been cases in which, when selling an article, they may have +asked for a few shillings for themselves, and where they may have +mentioned what they wanted it for; but with regard to Mary Ann +Sinclair's case, to the best of my recollection, this was just an +account which I paid for her to a meal-dealer that she was owing it +to. + +2455. You say that some of your knitters don't have pass-books at +all?-The majority of them have. + +2456. In that case, the only account kept with them is the one +entered in your work-book?-Yes; but whenever we settle, we +carefully read over all the items to them and if they take any +objection to them, of course they get some explanation. + +2457. The work-book you have produced is the current one?- +Yes. + +2458. Is there any entry in it showing where a pass-book has been +given?-Yes; it is generally marked in red pencil where there is a +pass-book. There are not many pass-books; I don't think we have +a dozen altogether; but the women are never refused a pass-book if +they want it. It entails a great deal more trouble on us to keep +them. + +2459. When you come to settle one of these accounts where +there is no pass-book, how do you proceed?-For instance, here +is Elizabeth Hunter, from Trondra: she comes into town on +September 2, and you find then a balance for articles brought in, +which she takes in goods?-She takes more than she has to get. + +2460. Are all these items read over to her at that time?-Every +item is read over to every person when we settle with them. We +always make a point of reading over the account in detail, and +satisfying them about it. Sometimes it happens that they cannot +remember about a particular thing, and some explanation is given +to them, generally by one of the people the shop; and that satisfies +them. + +2461. Does it sometimes happen that the balance such a case is in +favour of the knitter?-Yes; sometimes. + +2462. Is it, then, the practice simply to carry the balance on to the +new account, or does the woman receive any acknowledgment for +the balance?-The balance generally the other way. I may say that +we never take goods in advance. They generally go ahead, and we +must keep a tight rein on some of them otherwise they would go +deep enough. For instance here is a copy of the account of +Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined before you on Monday. +[Produces copy account.] + +2463. Before going into that, I believe you think that in some parts +of the previous evidence an erroneous impression has been +produced to the effect that no worsted can be got in exchange for +the knitted goods?-Yes; I can state that I myself with my own +hands have given Elizabeth Robertson worsted in payment for +shawls more than once. I have given her the greater part of the +value of her shawls, or of the goods she had to sell, in worsted, +although that does not appear in her account. + +2464. That has occurred when she has brought articles to you for +sale or exchange?-Yes. + +2465. Do you say you have often given her the greater part of her +work in worsted?-I have not often given her the greater part, but I +have often given her part, and sometimes the greater part, in +worsted. Those in my shop can bear testimony to the same effect, +that they have given her worsted too. In fact we never refused to +give Pyrenees wool for the knitted goods when we had it, except +on rare occasions, when we had very little of it, and had to give it +out ourselves for work that we required. + +2466. I suppose you know that if you give them that worsted in +return for their hosiery, they will bring it back to you?-They may, +or they may not. + +2467. Do they not bring it to somebody?-They may to somebody, +but perhaps not to me. They may have an order for it from a lady +in the south, or dispose of it in other ways. We do not ask them +what they do with it, unless we give it out to them to make a +special article with. The fact is, with regard to that kind of +worsted we do scarcely anything in it, but we sell it to any knitter +in order to accommodate them. + +2468. Then you say you have given Pyrenees worsted to Elizabeth +Robertson?-Yes. + +2469. Have you ever given her the other kinds of worsted that +come from Yorkshire?-That is the same thing. + +2470. Is the Pyrenees and the Yorkshire worsted all the same?- +No, the Pyrenees is one class. There is mohair worsted. I don't +recollect whether I ever gave any of it. It is used, for knitting falls. +'The Pyrenees is generally made into shawls. + +2471. Does Robertson generally make shawls-Yes, generally; but +she makes falls too. I don't recollect giving her mohair; but I have +given her Pyrenees often. She would get any kind when she asked +for it; but mohair is a thing we never do sell, because we only +bring it in for our own use + +2472. Is it the highest priced of all?-Yes. + +2473. Is it higher than the Shetland wool?-We don't sell the +Shetland wool, except in rare, exceptional cases. The fine wool +we never sell, because we have great difficulty in getting it. We +never send it south; nor do we sell it in the shop as an article of +sale, except on occasions when a person is very much in want of it +for any particular purpose. + +2474. For darning, for instance?-No, that kind of wool is not fit +for darning; it is only the coarser kind that is used in that way. + +2475. Then you don't regard the Shetland wool as an article of +commerce?-No, it is a material we use for ourselves and we have +very great difficulty in getting as much of it as we require. We pay +cash for it; and if we were to sell it would put a stop to our trade. + +2476. You heard the evidence of Mr. Laurenson about Shetland +wool?-Yes; it is something different from my experience. If a +lady or a retail dealer in the south orders a Shetland shawl, we +don't send a shawl made of Shetland wool unless we know that +they want that particular kind, but if we send one of Pyrenees +wool, we tell them what it is made of and that if will not do, they +can return it. + +2477. With regard to the worsted, does the idea that knitters +cannot purchase worsted from merchants in Lerwick arise from the +fact that the merchants do not regard Shetland wool as an article of +commerce?-That is my impression. They not only do not so +regard it; but the fact is, if they made it an article of commerce, it +would put a stop to their business. + +2478. How so?-Because they cannot get sufficient material for +their own use and also for sale. + +2479. Do you mean that if you sold Shetland wool to any one who +asked it, you would not have a sufficient supply for your own +trade?-That is one reason; but there is another reason: because it +would be like changing a shilling, for the people know the value of +these things, and they would just pay me for the wool what I paid +for it in cash. + +2480. They can get the wool from the same dealers from whom +you buy?-Yes, and of course the price of it is as well known to +them as to me. Another thing is, that if I take a parcel of worsted +of perhaps 600 or 700 cuts, a knitter who wants some of it won't +be pleased unless she gets the very pick of it; and for the very pick +of it she won't give me any more than I had to pay for the whole of +it overhead. + +2481. That is substantially what Mr. Laurenson said with regard to +the reason for not selling Shetland wool. He does not sell it +either?-None of the principal dealers sell it. Sometimes some of +the wool is sold to grocers in town who don't deal in shawls, and +the knitters buy it from them. + +2482. But if the knitters ask for Shetland wool, and offer cash for +it, is it usual to sell it?-No, except in very exceptional cases; and +you will see that an exception has been made in the case of that +girl Robertson. + +[Page 53] + +2483. You want to point that out?-Yes; I consider that we dealt +with her in rather an exceptional way. + +2484. I see '12 cuts worsted:' is that what you refer to?-There is +more than that in the account. The very first thing is a balance on +worsted from a previous account, of 2s.; then on December 16, +1865, she gets 12 and 16 cuts at the same time, but at different +prices. The 16 cuts are charged at 3d. per cut, which is a kind of +worsted we very seldom sell. Then July 5, 1866, there are 12 cuts; +and in 1868 there are other sales of worsted to her. + +2485. Is this a copy from your books of the account with Elizabeth +Robertson?-Yes; exactly. + +2486. The crosses on the side show where worsted has been +given?-Yes. + +2487. Do these entries refer to Shetland worsted?-I think mostly. + +2488. But you say this is an exceptional case?-Yes; it was to +favour her that I did it. + +2489. Was there any particular reason for favouring her in that +way?-It was done because I thought she was a needful person, +and she pleaded for it. + +2490. Was it that sort of wool that she was in the way of +knitting?-It was that kind she wanted; and although I was not in +the habit of selling it, I gave it to oblige her. + +2491. Do these entries appear in the ordinary account which you +kept with her as a knitter employed by you?-She was never +employed by me specially. + +2492. Did she always knit with her own wool?-Always with +me. She did not knit specially to me, that I recollect of I have +no recollection of ever employing her. [Shown account in +work-book.] I see from this that she has knitted for me. She +knitted three shawls for me in 1867. The others are shawls she +knitted for herself, and sold in the shop. At 15, March 1870, she +was due me £4, 16s. 31/2d. + +2493. I see that between March 29 and December 28 she has paid +off that balance with the exception about £1?-Yes. Then she said +in her evidence that she would not have taken out so much in +clothes, or half so much, if it had not been that she was compelled +to take goods for her work. Now I would ask how that statement is +consistent with the fact that for about twelve months she was due +me that sum, mostly for clothes, when she was not asked to take +them, but the reverse. + +2494. She got them on credit?-Yes. + +2495. Then this account of hers you happen to have, because she +was knitting at that time for you?-I would not assign that is a +reason for her getting the goods. + +2496. But I am asking you the reason why you have this +account?-Because it is in my books. + +2497. I rather understood that the only women who had accounts +entered in your books were those who were employed by you as +knitters: is not that so?-Of course, when the women get into my +debt, I must take note of what they bring to me with which to +pay off their debt; and that must pass through my books. I do not +take a note of all the transactions over the counter; it is only when +a woman runs into debt that anything appears in the books. + +2498. Is this account taken from what you call the work-book?- +No; it is entered first in our ledgers, and now it has been +transferred to the work-book. + +2499. Is the ledger a different book?-The work-book is a kind of +compound between the two. It was entered first in the one, and +then in the other. + +2500. But it was because the woman was working for you that the +account happened to be put in that form?-Of course. I think that +was mostly the way in which the credit was got. She would just +creep in and then, and she was in the habit of getting things that +she asked for, and these were put into the book. That is the only +way in which I can account for her getting them. But I would +draw attention to the copy of her account, as showing that she got +goods she needed them and it was a mere subterfuge for her to say +that she got goods from the merchant although she did not knit for +him. + +2501. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the +evidence of Elizabeth Robertson?-Nothing, except with regard to +these two items of it. + +2502. When she was under examination she handed me this line +[showing line quoted in Elizabeth Robertson's evidence]; and I +have also got a line in these + + 'C. Y. 92.-Credit bearer value in goods for 18s. + 'R. SINCLAIR & CO. + 'J.J.B. +'22. 12. 71.' + +Do you give out many of these lines in your business?-Yes, a +good many. + +2503. How is that?-It is not our wish to give lines, if the women +would only take the value out at once; but when they have +bargained to take goods for their work or for their hosiery, and +they will not take them at the time, what are we to do?-We might +enter them in a book, but they prefer to have a line, and come with +it and get what they want marked on it later, whenever they want +the goods. + +2504. What is the meaning of the initial letters at the +commencement of the line?-They are put there so that we may be +able to identify the lines at a glance and they correspond with the +same letters in the line-book, where a check is kept. The numbers +begin under each initial letter, and run to 100 consecutively until +that number is reached, and then we begin with another initial +letter. For instance, after C. W. we have C. X. + +2505. There are two letters: how do you explain that?-Because, +when we get to the end of the alphabet we must distinguish; we +could not begin with again. + +2506. In introducing this system of notation you began with?- +Yes, and went on to Z. + +2507. You numbered these receipts or notes, or whatever they may +be called, A 1, A 2, and so on up to A 100, and then you went +through the alphabet with one letter until you came to Z 100?- +Yes. + +2508. When you began to take A A 1, and so on?-I think it was A +B, until we came to the end of the alphabet again. + +2509. Then you took BA, and so on to B Z, using the double letters +BA, 100 times, and the double letters BC 100 times?-Yes. + +2510. How long is it since this system was introduced?-I have no +recollection how long it is since it began. It is not two years, I +think; but it may be more. + +2511. Does that mean that you have issued some 6000 or 8000 of +these lines in two years?-I suppose so. It will just mean about +that. + +2512. Can you give me any idea, or do your books give any idea, +within what time these lines are brought back to be liquidated?- +Sometimes in two hours, and sometimes longer. When we take +goods from the knitters, we generally, in order to prevent any +mistake, give them a receipt for them in that form; and having +other work to do when we are very busy, they take that in their +pocket and go away, and then they look in again when we have a +slack moment and get the value of it, sometimes on the very same +day. I don't know how often it is on the same day, but it is very +often. + +2513. Are these lines only given to the people who sell you goods, +or are they given also to your work-people?-There are very few +of the work-people who got lines in that way. It is only when the +people selling goods that they may get such a line if they want it. + +2514. Can you tell me any of your work-people who have got lines +in that way?-I cannot; but the work-book would show if such +lines had been given. + +2515. In what way does the work-book show it?-By an entry to +the individual's debit. I think you will find very few of them. + +2516. What do you call these things? Do you call them I O U's, or +receipts, or lines; or what are they?-They are just vouchers for +their value. + +[Page 54] + +2517. Is it a general practice in the trade in Lerwick to give these +lines?-It is only within the last few years that it has been +practised to any extent, and we would, much rather do away with +them if we could. + +2518. How could they be done away with?-Just by giving the +people value for their goods when they bring them. That is the +only way I know. + +2519. Do you mean the value in cash?-The value in cash or in +goods. If it cash tariff were introduced, which I suppose would be +better for the whole of us, it would save us all this bother. + +2520. Do you think it would be better to have a cash system +introduced altogether?-It would be better for the trade, at any +rate. + +2521. But the nominal price paid to the knitters would in that case +be less?-I think that, in some cases, not only the nominal but the +real price would be less. + +2522. Do you mean that the knitter would really get less value for +her work?-I do mean that, as we have always endeavoured to +deal on that principle,-to sell on cash terms, and to take the very +least we could for the article in cash. + +2523. You mean that you take the smallest profit you can on your +goods?-Yes. Suppose for instance, a woman comes in with a +shawl, the market value of which is 20s. that is the price I should +expect to get, and would get, for it. + +2524. Do you mean that is the market value in Lerwick?-No; it is +the market value in the south. Suppose the value put upon it were +£1, I would only get 20s. for it in the south. + +2525. Do you sell your goods to retail or wholesale dealers?-I +sell them wherever I can get them sold, but the greater part of +them are sold wholesale; that is, we sell them wholesale to retail +dealers. + +2526. You sell them to retail dealers, so that you have only one +price, for your goods going south?-Yes. + +2527. You heard Mr. Laurenson state that there was sometimes it +difference in the price which he charged, according as the sale was +one to dealer, or to a dealer who sold retail?-I understood Mr. +Laurenson to mean that he made a difference when he sold a shawl +to a private customer, and when he sold a dozen or two to a retail +dealer; and so do we. + +2528. Is that the only difference you make in selling your +goods?-Yes; and we think that is only fair the trade. + +2529. I interrupted you when you were putting the case of a shawl +worth 20s. What did you wish to say about that?-We fix our +lowest rate of profits, and we give the people goods the same as if +they had cash to lay down for them; and I can bring evidence to +that effect if you want it. + +2530. Do you mean that you fix your lowest rate of profit upon the +hosiery goods you buy?-No; our lowest rate of profit on the +goods we sell. A third way of explaining it is, that we treat as cash +the goods which we buy. A shawl worth 20s. is reckoned by us as +a £1 note would be reckoned,-with this difference, that if a man +is laying down a £l note we would give him 5 per cent. discount +when he bought our goods. We consider that the trouble we have +with the shawls, and the time we lie out of our money, is worth 5 +per cent. + +2531. Then what you say comes to this: that upon your hosiery +goods you make no profit at all?-Not when they are once sold; +that is to say, when they are once bought, the profit lies in the +profit we have upon the goods. That is the only profit we have in +the matter. + +2532. But upon the hosiery, looked at by itself, you do not make +any profit at all?-No; I say that I make none, and I swear to that +most emphatically. + +2533. In other words, the profit you make upon your purchases of +hosiery is only the profit you make upon your sales of goods, +which are given in return for the hosiery?-Yes; in short, it is two +sales for one profit. + +2534. That is to say, you are obliged to take the hosiery at the +market price in the south, in order to get payment for your drapery +and other goods?-With regard to that, I am not obliged to take +them, further than that is the only thing in the country that +reckoned as a kind of payment. + +2535. It is the only thing which your purchasers have to give you +for your goods?-That is my meaning exactly. + +2536. You were going to offer me some evidence of that?-I can +give evidence of it afterwards. My own employees can prove it, +also women who have been in my employment, and also people +who have been purchasing both for cash and goods. + +2537. What can they prove?-They can prove that there is no +difference between the two prices, and that the price which I +charged is the lowest price I can fix. + +2538. You are prepared to give evidence of this fact, that the price +you allow to the seller of hosiery in Shetland is the price you get +from the buyer in the south?-Yes, I can prove that. At least I can +prove that it is so on the whole, by comparison, the invoiced prices +of the goods sent south with the general prices of goods bought in +the country. Here is a list of them [producing trade list]. + +2539. Is this list what you send to your purchasing customers?- +Yes; and if you compare these prices with the prices of similar +goods bought at the counter of my shop, you will find that there is +no difference. The question was put to me, whether there would +be a difference between the nominal value a customer would +receive under the present system and if a cash system were +introduced. I say there would be a real difference, but ultimately +the merchant would be no loser. The difference would lie in this: +that if I were compelled to buy goods for cash, that is, if I could +not barter them, I would have no profit by giving the same rate that +I now give. That, I think, is plain from what I have already stated. +Then I would require to buy them at a discount equivalent to the +profit I now have on my goods, or else I could not carry on my +trade; and that would be the same with whoever dealt in these +articles. The cash price we can afford to give for Shetland goods +here is just the value we pay for the goods that we give in +exchange for them; and if we were to give more than that price, +there would be an end of the trade. + +2540. Do you not mean that it is the value you pay for the goods +you give in exchange, plus your profit upon these goods?-I say +the price we could afford to pay in cash is just the price we do pay +cash, which is paid not to the knitter, but to the party in the south +that we buy our goods from. Our goods cost us cash: that cash, +thousands of pounds every year, would go into the hands of the +knitters here; but in that case we would just give them that money, +less the profit we have on the goods. That is speaking of the thing +in a broad sense. There would be a real loss to the knitters in that +case where they were fairly dealt with, because they could not get +goods without a profit, and they in that case would have to put +their hands into their pockets and give a few shillings more. For +instance, suppose the case of a 20s. shawl: they get 20s. of real +good value for it under the present system. If I were obliged to pay +in cash, I suppose I could not give more than 16s. or 17s. for it; +and if the individual wanted the very same thing from me which +she can now get for the 20s., yet under the other system she would +require to go to some other shop and purchase it, paying 3s. or 4s. +more for it than she now does. + +2541. Is this what it comes to: that if a cash system were +introduced, the knitter would be worse off, because the merchant +would require to take two profits instead of one?-He would only +have one profit to take. + +2542. But if it were a cash system, would he have to take two +profits?-No, he would not take two profits. + +2543. If there were a cash system, would not the [Page 55] buyer +of the hosiery from the knitter require to make a profit upon the +hosiery?-Decidedly. + +2544. And further, would not the seller of the goods to her require +to have a profit upon these goods as well?-Certainly. + +2545. Therefore there would be two profits?-Yes; there would be +two profits taken from the knitter, but not by me. + +2546. But I am putting the case of the knitter, and in that case the +buyer of the hosiery might be a different person altogether?-That +is my meaning. + +2547. The knitter would have to sell her hosiery at such a price +that the hosiery merchant would make a profit on his re-sale, while +she would have to buy the goods at such a price that the dealer +from whom she bought them would make something like the +present profit which you make upon them?-Yes. Suppose we +were to purchase for cash, and the cash system were introduced, in +all probability the drapers would be simply drapers, and not +hosiers at all; or they might withdraw their capital from the +drapery business and embark it in the hosiery business altogether. + +2548. Then what you mean to make out is, that at present you are +making only one profit?-I do mean to make that out, for it is true; +and I am very thankful when I can get it. + +2549. How do you prove that there is only one profit at present?- +By looking at the prices at which the goods are bought and sold. + +2550. Let us take a single instance: you have put in a wholesale +trade list for 1870?-Yes; we have later ones, but that will be +sufficient for the purpose. There is no difference on them. + +2551. Is that list issued at the beginning of the year?-I should like +that others proved that, and not me. You can get it from my +employees, or from my books, or from people who buy from me. + +2552. In what way do you suggest that it should be shown? By this +wholesale trade list, and by taking a variety of instances from your +books in which prices have been paid for the articles that are +mentioned here?-Yes. + +2553. How would that be shown in your books?-By entries to the +knitters whom we deal with. + +2554. We could not find that by the entries in the work-book, +because they show it only in detail?-I am not speaking of the +work-book just now. + +2555. It could only be shown by the sales?-Yes; and of course +that list has been prepared from the prices which we pay for the +goods. + +2556. Do you mean the prices to dealers, or prices to people who +sell them over the counter to you?-I mean the prices that we pay +to the people for them, and which I pay over to them. + +2557. But I think you said that when you buy the goods over the +counter, no record is kept of these prices?-No; but the people that +we buy them from would tell you the prices they get for them. In +some instances, where debts have been paid by means of these +goods, there may be entries in the books which will show the +prices. + +2558. Is there any entry in your books at all of your purchases of +hosiery? I rather understood you to say that there was no such +entry?-I think I said that when goods were presented for sale, +there was note taken of what was given for them; but when goods +come from the north isles or from people who send them to us +from a distance, we enter them in the books. + +2559. Are there dealers in the north isles who send goods to +you?-Either dealers or private individuals may send us falls or +various other things, and the entries with regard to them will show +the prices given for them. + +2560. These transactions will appear in the day-book?-I think so. + +2561.You think Mr. Sandison, your bookkeeper, would be better +able to point these out than you?-He would be better able to lay +his hand on them; but sometimes we buy from dealers and pay +cash for them, and same thing applies in that case which Mr. +Laurenson stated, that we charge a small percentage on these +goods, because we pay in cash for them. + +2562. You put in the trade list, and you also put in a copy invoice, +which you have shown to me, containing the prices at which you +have sold the goods there mentioned?-Yes. It shows that there is +a certain discount allowed; but that discount does not come off the +profits charged on the hosiery, but off the sales of goods I give for +them. + +2563. Do you calculate that there is a larger profit upon hosiery +goods which are made by your own knitters than on those which +you buy and sell in the way you have described?-That is it +question I have sometimes asked myself; and, taking the thing +altogether, I don't think there is much difference. + +2564. Don't you allow a little for the extra trouble and risk you +have with your knitters?-There is a certain market price that we +cannot get beyond. We must take the price in the market. Unless +one merchant was able to monopolize the trade altogether, and +force up the prices, he would not get more than the market price of +the goods. + +2565. You have said that the footing on which you settle with your +knitters and with those who sell to you is, that the bargain between +you is that they are to take goods?-That is the understanding. We +do not make any formal bargain. + +2566. Is that bargain made with the knitters whom you employ at +the time when you give out the wool?-I have said already that we +make no formal bargain, but it is generally understood that we pay +them in kind. They know that, and consequently they very seldom +ask for anything else. But we don't stick entirely to that. + +2567. You sometimes give them cash?-Yes. + +2568. Is it regarded as a great favour to pay them a considerable +sum in cash?-I may give an instance. The general price paid for +knitting a fall of Shetland yarn is about 1s. That is about the +average price, although the coarser quality may be lower than that. +The yarn for that fall costs us from 6d. to 7d. That is paid in cash; +and the girl is paid part in cash and part in goods, or it may be all +in goods. That brings up the cost to 19d.; but if it is wanted black +we must pay freight south, in order to have it dyed, and freight +back to Shetland. We also pay for the dyeing of it; and these +things altogether come to about 11/2d. per fall-that is 1s. 81/2d.; +and then there is dressing, 1d. + +2569. When do you send it south for dyeing?-When it is made. + +2570. And do you bring it back here to be dressed?-Yes; that is +an additional expense upon it, which has never been pointed out. + +2571. Could it not be dressed in the south?-No, it could not. + +2572. It must come back here simply for the dressing?-Yes; we +could not value it unless we got it back and sorted it, and knew the +value of it. + +2573. You don't know the value of it until it is dressed?-We do +not ask ourselves the value before then. We know the average +value of them pretty nearly; but we send them south, and get them +back dyed, and then we must dress them. There are a number of +them which may be damaged, either in the working or the dyeing, +and that detracts from their value, and that very fall I am now +referring to, when it comes to be sold, will not bring more than +perhaps 2s. In that way you can calculate where our profit lies. +There are cheaper falls that do not bring more than 18d., and +sometimes even lower. + +2574. Then I understand you to say that in every bargain with a +knitter, and generally with a seller, of a shawl, the understanding is +that they are to take the price in goods?-Yes; that has been so +time out of mind: I remember a time about forty years ago, when it +was different and when there were two prices on goods which they +sold. + +2575. There were two prices then-one for cash, and the other for +goods?-Yes; perhaps from 20 to per cent. of difference. I +remember hearing that question discussed at my father's fire when +I was a mere youth. I have been told, although I do know it +[Page 56] myself, because I was not in the trade then, a woman +may have bought a piece of goods for 16d., when a party paying +cash for it only paid 1s. The more intelligent of, the natives +thought that was an iniquitous thing; but then it was always known +and done avowedly, and the people yielded to it. They said it was +not possible for them to take barter, and sell their goods at the +same rate because there was so much risk and outlay. That reason +never appeared satisfactory to me; and it was not until I came +behind the scenes, as it were, that I saw the reason for it was, that +the value given for Shetland goods was far beyond what it really +was worth in the market. Its real value in the market was about +the same amount less than what was charged as an addition upon +the goods. What I mean is that, supposing a woman came in with +a pair of stockings, the real market price of which was 2s., but for +which she wished 2s. 6d., the merchant, in order to secure a sale +for his goods, would give her goods in exchange of the nominal +value of 2s. 6d., but he would put 3d. a yard on the price of the +goods which he gave in exchange. That explains how it is that a +person knowing the value of the articles, seeing the purchase +which the woman might have made, and hearing the price of it, +might have said that they were about 25 per cent. too high, +whereas in reality they were not so. She had merely been getting +value for her goods, although she did not know it; and it would not +have made any difference; although it had been as many pounds +higher, while the relative proportions were kept up between the +value of the two articles. + +2576. Is that done now?-Not that I know of. + +2577. If a woman puts a higher price on her goods, is it not the +usual thing for a merchant to put a little additional on the price of +the goods which he is to give her in exchange?-I don't know +what other merchants do, but we never do it. Only the other day, a +woman carried out two shawls which I could have bought if I had +departed from our usual practice, but I thought they were priced +too high. I could have sold the shawls at 1s. or 2s. lower, but I +would not buy them these terms. We have one fixed price for cash +and goods. I am not aware whether the practice I have mentioned +exists now in the town; I don't think it does. When I commenced +business I made it a point fix my price in that way, and I have +always adhered that. I was told by some parties I would never do +business in that manner; but I had some faith in common sense, +and I hoped the people would come to see that they were as well +dealt with in taking the real cash value and getting the real cash +value; so that we never give a higher price than we consider the +thing is worth in the market, and we do not give lower. + +2578. You say your understanding is, that goods are to be taken in +payment, but that cash is given to a small extent: do you not +consider that to be a departure from the understanding?- +Decidedly. + +2579. You do that, as a favour to the knitter?-Yes; and I wish it +to be distinctly understood, that in every case when I give 1s. of +cash, I consider it is just 2d. out of my pocket. + +2580. Would you not have that profit if the 1s. was spent in your +shop?-Yes. + +2581. With regard to the lines or receipts which you issue, can you +say whether they are generally presented at your shop by the +parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are made +payable to the bearer, and they may not be presented by these +parties. + +2582. But, in point of fact, are they generally presented by the +parties to whom they have been given out?-It is impossible to +know who they have been given out to, or who brings them back. + +2583. Then what is the purpose of your keeping this register of +them?-It is a check upon the lines. If we had no check of that +kind, we would not know what lines were out. + +2584. And you would not know what amount was lying out in that +way?-No; that is one reason for keeping it. Another thing is, that +if a line was lost, and its value paid to another person who had +found it, we could see by this book when it was paid. + +2585. Could it show to whom it was paid?-No. + +2586. I suppose the lines themselves are destroyed when they have +been settled for?-Yes. + +2587. You have no means of telling from your books, whether they +have been presented by the original creditor in them, or by +another?-No. + +2588. And you don't know about that from your own personal +knowledge?-As regards my own personal knowledge, I know +that, in the generality of cases, they are presented by the parties to +whom they have been given originally. + +2589. Does that lead you to conclude that this system of lines is +not a new kind of currency that has been generally adopted in +Shetland?-I never heard of that. + +2590. Does one of these lines pass from hand to hand, in payment +for what the creditor in it wants?-Not to my knowledge. It is +only now or lately that I have ever heard of such a thing being +done. + +2591. You have not known of them being transferred to other +hands, and being presented by some one from whom the knitter +has obtained other goods or services?-There never was any such +thing stated to me. + +2592. Of course you pay the value of the line to any one who +presents it?-Yes. There was a girl, Borthwick, examined here, +who said she had to sell her tea at half-price, in order to get other +things which she wanted. I spoke to her about it, and said I had +never heard of such a thing being done before, and that she must +be a great fool to do anything of the kind; for she had come to us +and said that she wanted the money, she would have got it upon +giving a small discount for it. + +2593. Have you actually given money upon that discount when +requested?-I have. + +2594. That is to say, one of these lines has been presented to you +and cash asked for it?-Yes; part cash. I have sometimes given +cash on these lines, although it was goods that was bargained for. + +2595. The lines bear to be payable in goods?-Yes; but when I +saw that the person was really requiring the cash, and that it was +not just a 'try-on,' as it were, I took 2d. off the 1s. and paid in +cash. + +2596. May that have occurred often?-No; very seldom. + +2597. Has it been lately?-Yes. I was obliged to make that +deduction, because, if I had not done so, it would have opened a +door for a system which would have robbed us of every penny of +profit. If we were obliged to pay cash instead of goods, we would +have no profit at all. + +2598. But that has occurred sometimes?-I think it has only +occurred twice in the whole of my transactions. + +2599. When a discount is taken in that way, how is the entry made +in the line-book?-The lines are entered when they are finally paid +up. The way in which they are paid does not appear here at all. + +2600. Then that discount will not appear in the book?-No; but I +may say that I often give small sums of cash on these lines without +taking a discount, where I think the person is really in need of it. + +2601. I think you said these lines were very seldom given to +women whom you employ to knit for you?-Very seldom, I think. + +2602. Can you name any of these women who have got them?-I +cannot; perhaps Mr. Sandison can. He is more in the way of +settling with these people than I am. + +2603. Have you any dealings in stockings and the commoner kinds +of hosiery?-The price-list will show that. + +2604. Is the system of dealing in these just the same as you have +already described?-The same principle applies to all the trade. + +2605. That kind of goods is generally brought in from the country, +I understand?-Yes, generally. + +2606. Is it the case that people coming in from the country take +goods more readily than the town?-There are very few of the +people from the country who ask for cash, but they are now +beginning [Page 57] to do it. They think the Truck Commission +will force us to give cash. + +2607. What is their reason for wanting cash, if they are as well off +with goods?-I suppose it is just for same reason, that we all want +cash. + +2608. But if they get goods, why should they not be content with +that?-I don't know. We have no objection to give them cash, if +they will only be content to take less of it, on the principle have +already explained. + +2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters who were coming to sell +to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of it?- +I have. It would very great deal of bother if they would do so. + +2610. What have they said to that proposal?-They have never +entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of +women employed to knit for us but of women from whom we +bought shawls over the counter which corroborates what I have +already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names the +parties, but I would know their faces at once. + +2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Three girls came +into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell worth £1. At +that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I said to +them, 'Now, what would you take for these in money? I am not +saying that I will give you money, but what would you take for +them in money?' One of them said, 'Oh, I ken you will just be +going to give us money.' I said, 'Why? Don't you think the goods +you get cost us money?' She said, 'I ken that fine. I will give my +20s. shawl for 18s. 6d.' I said, I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it, +and asked her if she would take 17s. She said, 'No,' and that it +would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl. +I said, 'I don't think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can +only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken +off. + +2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not +take money?-No; they did not money; but another one said, 'I +would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a plaid +in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would it do +me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my +pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the +plaid in exchange for the shawl?' That was her answer to me. + +2613. Was one of these women Catherine Leslie?-I think so. +Leslie was her surname, but her first name I cannot recollect. + +2614. There were some payments made by you to Mary Ann +Sinclair for meal. Have you often paid accounts to tradesmen for +meal?-Not often for meal. + +2615. Or for provisions?-Very seldom. We sometimes pay small +sums for such things when the people want them. + +2616. But you are not able to say whether these goods are paid for +directly to the dealer or through the hands of the women?-We +sometimes pay for them to the dealer. For instance, if a woman +was due an account to a shoemaker or any other person, and told +us to pay a part of it for them, we would do it. + +2617. Does the tradesman come to your shop and get the +payment?-No; we just settle with him. He may come to the +shop for it, or he may not; but it is very seldom that such things +happen-so seldom, as not to be worth mentioning. The case +of Mary Ann Sinclair to which you referred was just a cash +transaction. + +2618. You remember that now?-I remember that it was a cash +transaction. She had to get cash from us to pay her meal with; but +the particulars of the transaction I cannot recollect. + +2619. She wanted the meal?-Yes; she wanted it, and we did not +have it. + +2620. But there were two transactions of that kind which she was +concerned; one in which she was paid 11s. 3d. for meal, and +another in which the entry is, 'Paid William Smith for meal.' Do +you recollect about these transactions?-She had to get her meal +from some one; but I really cannot say what took place + +2621. I want to know what you think about the way in which these +women get their living. Have you anything to say about that?-If +Mary Ann Sinclair, or any one of her sisters, had come and said, 'I +want so much money for meal,' I would have gone to the counter +and given her out the money, and she would have gone to any one +she pleased for it; or she might have come when I was out, and she +could not get the money; or there might not have been money at +the counter at the time; and in that case I would say 'Go over to +William Smith and get half a boll of meal, and I will pay him +again.' I don't think there was any great breach of honesty in that. + +2622. I do not say there was; I only want to know your opinion +about the way in which those women supply themselves with +provisions. Some of them I find are entirely dependent on the +proceeds of their knitting for getting supplies of food; is not that +so?-Yes. + +2623. Now, if they take all the payment for their knitting, or the +greater part of it, in goods, I don't quite see as yet where the +money comes from with which they pay for their living. Have you +considered that point at all?-I have not. They have never +complained to me about it. + +2624. Don't they say, when they come to you and beg you to give +them a little money rather than goods, that they must have +something to live upon?-I never heard that yet. It is very seldom +they ask for money. + +2625. Many of them live with their parents, and are provided for +in that way; and when a woman is married, her husband provides +for her; but there are single women in Lerwick, are there not, who +depend upon their knitting mostly or entirely for their living, and +how do they manage if they are paid almost entirely in goods?- +These are the cases I have just been explaining to you. For +instance, there are the Sinclair girls. + +2626. They come and beg for a little money from you in that +way?-Yes. + +2627. Are there any others?-There are many others who get a +little money. + +2628. Who are some of these others?-I really don't know that I +can go into the matter more fully than I have done. There are +several benevolent ladies in the town who buy knitting from these +women. They are not bound to work for us; and these ladies, I +suppose, pay them in cash. That is one of the ways in which it +may be accounted for. + +2629. Do you know whether the women prefer to sell to these +ladies or to you?-They have never told me anything about that. +They just sell their goods where they think they will get the best +bargain; but there is this to be said about it, that if they had not +some place like ours, they would not get rid of one half the goods +they make. The greater part of our knitters are in the country. + +2630. And they knit with their own wool?-Yes. + +2631. They are mostly the daughters of labourers, or farmers, or +fishermen?-Yes; and they spend their leisure hours in knitting. + +2632. You have no knowledge of the fact that there is often a want +of food among these knitting women?-I never heard that they +were really in want. + +2633. Have they not stated that as a reason for your giving them +money?-No; they have been very reticent on that point if it is a +fact. I should be very sorry to know that there were any poor +persons starving when I could help them. + +2634. I suppose the character of the Shetland people is such that +they don't like to confess their poverty if they can help it?-That +may be so. They may be too prudent on that point, for all I know; +but I suppose there is a great variety of character here as +everywhere else. + +2635. Has this been a fair season in the knitting trade?-The +season is getting over in some departments. It is generally in the +fall that we sell most. + +2636. I don't mean for the sales, but for your purchases?-Well, +the busy season is getting over. + +[Page 58] + +2637. I see from your line-book that on December 13th you gave +out about 20 of these acknowledgments; on the 14th, about 20 +also; 15th, 18; 16th, 17; 17th, 38; 18th, 10; 20th, 24; and on the +21st, 29. Would that be a busy season of the year?-Yes; very +busy. + +2638. Perhaps during the rest of the year you were not giving out +quite so many each day?-Perhaps not. + +2639. The dates of payment are all entered in the book, showing +how long the lines have been in currency?-Yes; these have not +been long in currency. + +2640. I see that a great number of them have been paid up on the +very day they were issued?-Yes; it was a system which I adopted +in order to prevent any mistake or trusting to memory when I +purchase a parcel of hosiery from a woman. Instead of trusting to +memory, I give her a receipt for it, and she takes it with her. She +may go anywhere else she likes, and then she comes back and gets +the value of the line from me; it may be on the same day or two +days afterwards, or it may be weeks. The greater part of these +lines need not have appeared in the book at all, because they were +paid up immediately afterwards. We might have kept a +memorandum of them in the shop, and the people might have +come and got the value afterwards. I believe other merchants do +that, but I thought it was better to give the people an +acknowledgment for their goods at the moment they brought them +in. + +2641. Do these lines go mostly to women in the country or in the +town?-Just to any person who brings in goods. There is no +distinction. + +2642. You cannot say that the one class of women get them more +commonly than the other?-No; I cannot say that they do. + +2643. Is there any other point you wish to speak to?-I wish to +refer to a statement made by one of the previous witnesses, +Catherine Borthwick. I was present when she said that she could +get no cash, and also that there was a time when there was 5s. 6d. +due to her, and she had asked me for 1s. which I did not give to +her. I had no recollection of the transaction at the time, and I have +none still; but on referring to her account, I cannot find any +occasion on which she had 5s. 6d. to get when she came to settle. +I now show her account, from which it appears that she did get +cash. + +2644. Do you remember whether her statement referred to a sale +of goods or to money that was due to her for knitting?-I +understood she referred to transactions she had had in the shop +with regard to her knitting. At least that was my impression at the +time. + +2645. But if it were a sale of goods that she spoke of, that would +not be entered in your books at all?-No, not if it were a sale of +goods. + +2646. Is there any other point you wish to speakto?-I should wish +to make a remark or two about the value of a Shetland shawl. It +was stated before the last Commission that a Shetland shawl could +be made for very little money. I heard Mr. Laurenson's +evidence about that, and I was rather surprised to hear that a 30s. +shawl could be made for so little as he stated, or anything +approaching to it. It certainly has not been my experience. For a +30s. shawl the worsted would cost 10s.; and if Mr. Laurenson +meant a real Shetland shawl, I should say it would cost 12s. at any +rate. I consider that the prime cost of a Shetland shawl that would +bring 30s. would be this: thirty-six cuts at 4d., 12s.; knitting, 14s.; +dressing, 6d.-in all, 26s. 6d. + +2647. The 30s. at which that shawl would sell in the south would +be the price charged by the retail dealer there?-No. I don't know +what the retail dealer's charge for it would be. + +2648. Then the 30s. is your charge for it?-Yes. + +2649. That is 3s. 6d. you would have on it?-Yes. + +2650. Is not that a profit?-Well; it is not a very heavy one. + +2651. But still there is a profit?-Did I ever say that we had no +profit? + +2652. I thought you rather made out that the only profit you had +was on the goods you sold?-I am speaking here of the cash value +of the thing. We don't get our wool for barter; the wool costs us +cash + +2653. You allow something for interest on the price of the +wool?-Yes. I say that is what I would have to pay for a shawl of +that value in cash if I were buying it, or if I were trying to get it +made. + +2654. You would pay 26s. 6d., and you would sell it at 30s.?- +Yes. + +2655. Do you not call the 3s. 6d. a profit?-I do; but then in that +case there is nothing else for a profit. + +2656. You are supposing that you pay the 26s. 6d. in cash? If you +were paying for the shawl in goods, would you pay 26s. 6d., or +anything more?-If I were paying for it in goods, I would pay 30s. +There might 6d. less or 6d. more; but as far as my experience goes +of this kind of goods, and selling them at a wholesale price, I could +not expect to realize a higher price for them than I pay, taking +discounts and all together. + +2657. What is the kind of evidence you are to give me to prove +that there is no profit on a 30s. shawl which you pay for in +goods?-I have no evidence to offer as to that. + +2658. Except your trade list?-That would be taking a wide view +of the thing. It would embrace the whole trade. The case I have +given is a special one in contradiction of the statement made, +which was a false one that a Shetland shawl could be made at that +price. + +2659. The list enables you to say what you sell the articles for, and +you leave me to find out the price you pay from particular +cases?-Yes; and if an examination of my books would help you +in that, they are open to you. I am also prepared to give you the +names of a number of women who would be able to tell you what +prices they get for their goods. + +2660. Can you give me any particular kind of goods which you +think would be a fair test of that?-You may take the winter +shawls, white, brown, and grey, natural colours, and straight +borders. + +2661. Do you think that would be a fair test?-I think it would. + +2662. But there are no entries in your books which will show at +what price you bought these shawls?-There may be. If a woman +brings in a shawl, and gets so much goods at the time, then the +balance only might be marked down, and that would be no guide +to you; but at other times the whole price is marked. + +2663. That is, where there are credit balances with people who +come to you with shawls?-Yes. + +2664. Which book will show that?-The day-book or women's +ledger. + +2665. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I don't think there +is anything else. + + +Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT LINKLATER, examined. + +2666. You carry on business as a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes. + +2667. You purchase hosiery, and you keep a stock of drapery +goods, and tea, and other articles?-Yes. Tea is the only thing in +the grocery line which I keep. + +2668. Have you heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses?- +Only of the last witness. + +2669. Is the manner of conducting business in your establishment +similar to that which has been described as being carried on in Mr. +Sinclair's?-Very similar; there are some differences. + +2670. You deal with knitters of two kinds-women who knit with +your wool, and those who sell to you?-Yes. + +2671. In both cases are the settlements usually made by means of +goods which they take from you?-Yes, principally. + +2672. In what proportion is money paid to women who knit with +your wool?-I cannot say what the proportion may be. + +[Page 59] + +2673. But is there a much larger proportion of the prices taken in +goods?-Yes, very much larger. + +2674. Is it the general rule that it is to be paid in goods?-Yes, it is +the understanding that goods are given out. + +2675. And that any money that is paid is the exception?-Yes. + +2676. Is the dealing with these women usually carried on by means +of pass-books?-The greater number of the knitters whom I +employ have pass-books. + +2677. And these pass-books are transcripts of the accounts kept in +your ledger?-Yes. + +2678. You ledger, I presume, is kept on the principle of having a +page for the account of each woman?-Yes; or sometimes a page +for two. + +2679. On the one side there are the entries of goods got by the +woman, and on the other there are entered the payments due to her +for knitting?-There is double money column which shows both +the credit and debit on the same side. + +2680. How many women do you generally employ to knit for +you?-I could not say exactly; but I think there might be over 300. + +2681. Are these scattered all over the island?-Yes, all over the +country. + +2682. Is it a subject of complaint with these women that they do +not get payment for their work in money?-No; I have not heard +much complaint about that. + +2683. The understanding is, that the payment is to be in goods?- +Yes, it is the understanding that goods are to be taken when the +work is given out; but I give a good deal of money. + +2681. Is it considered a matter of favour when a woman gets +payment in money when she asks for it?-No, I don't think it. + +2685. If a woman asks for money rather than goods, is it given to +her as a matter of course?-As a matter of course. + +2686. Is that done whenever she asks for money?-As far as my +recollection goes, it is. The greater number of the knitters whom I +employ live in the country, and they very seldom ask for money. +When they come in with their work, I generally ask them what +they want, and they select the goods which they require. + +2687. Do you know Mrs. Jemima Brown or Tait?-Yes; her sister, +Harriet Brown, is the only one I have in my books. + +2688. Have you ever told Mrs. Tait, or any of her sisters, that you +could not give them money, and that you never did it?-I don't +remember doing that. I don't remember any money being asked +by them. + +2689. Is it likely you said that?-I don't think I said it. I don't +think I would say it, if I had goods of hers in my hand. + +2690. Did she knit with your wool?-Yes. I have no recollection +of her asking for money and being refused. + +2691. I suppose a knitter of that kind is not likely to ask for money +unless there is a balance coming to her upon her account?-It is +not likely, and I think there is rather a balance against her. + +2692. Is it a probable thing that you may have refused to give her +money?- I don't think I did so. + +2693. May your shopman, Mr. Anderson, have done so?-Not so +far as I know. + +2694. Do you issue any kind of lines or acknowledgments for the +balances upon sales made to you?-I give no lines. + +2695. If a party comes and sells a shawl to you, and does not wish +goods to the whole value of it, what is done?-I understand you to +refer to goods bought over the counter; in that case I mark the +balance down in a book. If they come with a shawl or any other +article, and sell it over the counter, and if they don't wish goods to +the whole value, I mark the balance down in any name that is +given to me. + +2696. In what way is that entered?-It is entered on the back of the +day-book by itself. + +2697. Is there a special place in the day-book for making entries of +that kind?-Yes. + +2698. They are put under the particular date?-Yes. + +2699. And are these balances generally settled up within a short +time afterwards?-Generally. + +2700. The party comes back soon to you for goods?-Sometimes +soon, and sometimes she delays a good while. + +2701. Is it usual for a party who has a balance of that kind to ask to +get it in cash?-No; that is not usual at all. + +2702. When you buy a shawl in that way, do you consider it to be +part of your bargain that the payment is to be taken in goods?- +Yes; it is distinctly sold for goods in exchange, and paid for in that +way. + +2703. Is that because there is a distinct understanding to that effect +prevailing among the people, or is it stated at the time when the +bargain is made?-It is not stated at the time, but there is a distinct +understanding that payment is to be taken in goods. + +2704. Will you show me the way in which these balances are +entered?-[Produces day-book.]. The entry is merely the name of +the party and the amount left. I generally put the date upon the top +of the page but not the date for each entry. + +2705. Then all these entries at the end of the book are entries of +balances due by you?-Yes. + +2706. And when a party comes and gets the goods, the balance is +marked as 'settled'?-Yes. + +2707. Where there is a sum like 3s. 4d. or 7s. 101/2d. due, there +must sometimes be a little difficulty in making it square exactly, is +there not?-No difficulty whatever. + +2708. Is there not a difficulty in getting the exact quantity of goods +to answer to that balance?-No, I don't see any difficulty. + +2709. The woman may want so many yards of cotton, or a pair of +gloves, or a packet of tea, and she may bring up the sum to 7s. 6d. +or 7s. 3d., there being 7s. 101/2d. due to her; in such a case, how do +you square off the balance?-She always takes the full value of it +when she comes to settle. + +2710. If the goods she gets come to something more than the +balance due to her, does she pay the rest in money?-If it comes to +anything more, she either pays it in money, or she may have +another piece of goods to sell. + +2711. Suppose 7s. 101/2d. is the sum at her credit, and she takes +various articles amounting to 7s. 7d., leaving 31/2d. over, might she +not have some difficulty in selecting an article to cover that?-No, +I don't find any difficulty in that at all. + +2712. I suppose you or your shopman can suggest something very +easily?-Well, there is always something required. + +2713. Have you often been importuned by these women to pay +them in money, because they could not supply themselves with the +means of living unless they were paid for their work partly in +cash?-No; there are many cases where cash is given. + +2714. These are cases where the people were in circumstances to +require it?-Yes. + +2715. And I suppose you are acquainted with these cases?-Yes; I +generally know the people who are actually requiring money when +they ask for it. + +2716. Do people often ask for money in that way?-Not often. + +2717. Then there are few of them who are in circumstances to +require money?-I should not say that. I think there are many of +them who require money. + +2718. Do you mean that many of them are in need of money +payments for their knitting, in order to provide themselves with the +necessaries of life?-In the town there are a good many who at +particular seasons of the year have other ways of working outside +as well as knitting. + +2719. For these, do they get money payments?-Yes. + +2720. Or they have friends with whom they live?-Yes; and in the +country there are a great many who live with their parents. + +2721. But there are some women who depend entirely upon their +knitting for a living?-I believe there are. + +[Page 60] + +2722. You don't know any of them yourself?-I could not mark +out any one. + +2723. But when you do meet with a woman of that description, +and have dealings with her, cash payments must sometimes be +made?-Yes; it little cash. + +2724. If she takes her goods from you and only little cash, how do +you suppose she supplements her means of living?-Just in the +way I have stated, by working outside at the proper season of the +year. + +2725. Is that in the fish-curing business?-There is fish-curing, but +there is other work outside besides that. + +2726. Do you agree with the preceding witness, that there are two +prices for hosiery goods bought-a cash price, and a price when +paid in goods?-I very seldom buy goods for cash. + +2727. But if you were doing so, would you have two prices?-I +would not give the same price in cash as in goods. + +2728. Do you also agree with his statement, that where you buy a +shawl or other Shetland hosiery for goods, you do not get any +profit except the profit which you have upon the goods?-I would +not say that. + +2729. In pricing a shawl, do you allow a certain margin for your +own profit?-There must be that; because we get a very great deal +of bad stock, and a good many of the things lie on our hands for a +considerable time before we can realize what they cost us, and +therefore we must have a margin for profit. + +2730. There has been a statement made, that a shawl which sells in +the south for 30s. can be made in Shetland for 26s. 6d.; do you +agree with that?-Yes; from about 25s. to 26s. 6d. + +2731. You think that statement is about correct?-Yes. + +2732. Is that the price you would give in cash for such a shawl?-I +am not prepared to say that. Until a cash tariff comes in, I could +not decidedly say what I would give for it. + +2733. Is that because of the rarity of your dealings in cash?-It is +not exactly that; I should think that there would be an ordinary +profit. + +2734. I am speaking of a shawl that would sell in the south for +30s.; would the price you give for that shawl in goods be 26s. +6d.?-No; would be nearer 30s. in goods, perhaps about 28s. 6d. + +2735. And if you were to buy it for cash, the price would be from +25s. to 26s.?-Perhaps about 26s. + +2736. Then, if a similar shawl were made by your own knitters, +how would you calculate the cost of production? would you supply +a certain amount of Shetland wool?-Yes. + +2737. How much would it require?-I think it would require about +35 or 36 cuts at 4d.-12s.; 13s. for the knitting of the shawl, and +6d. for the dressing; making 25s. 6d. That is for a white shawl, +without speaking of dyeing at all. + +2738. Do you deal in the commoner hosiery?-Yes. + +2739. Is the system pursued in that business the same as you have +described?-Yes. + +2740. There is no difference that you think worth referring to?- +No. + +2741. Do you agree generally with Mr. Sinclair on all the other +points he has spoken to?-I do. + +2742. You have pointed out some differences in answer to my +questions with regard to several of the points, but you don't +remember anything else on which you incline to differ from +him?-No; I think there is very little in which I would be inclined +to differ from him. + +2743. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I should wish to +make one explanation with regard to the evidence given in +Edinburgh about the cost of the worsted for a 30s. shawl. + +2744. That evidence has already been spoken to by Mr. +Laurenson?-I did not hear his evidence. + +2745. He stated that the worsted for a 30s. shawl would come to at +least 10s.?-If it is Shetland wool, the worsted for a 30s. shawl +would cost me about 12s. + +2746. If a 30s. shawl is made with any other kind of wool, is there +a difference in the cost of the wool?-There would be a difference +of about 3s. + +2747. The English wool would be about 3s. cheaper?-Yes. + +2748. And the shawl would sell for how much?-I suppose for +about that much less, or about 27s. + +2749. A shawl exactly the same in other respects would be made +out of English wool for 3s. less?-Yes; for 2s. or 3s. less. + +2750. And it would also sell in the market for 2s. or 3s. less?- +Yes. + +2751. The knitting in that case would be paid at the same rate?- +Yes. + +2752. Do you buy much wool in Shetland?-We buy all the fine +wool we can get. In fact, we cannot get supplied with as much +Shetland wool as we want. + +2753. You don't buy it to resell?-No; I just buy it for my own +use. + +2754. Is it the fact that some of your Shetland hosiery is sold +without any profit at all?- There is some of it sold below cost +price when it comes to be bad stock. + +2755. Are gentlemen's drawers, for instance, sold without a +profit?-I think they are sold at no reduction. + +2756. Do you make any profit upon them?-Yes, I make a profit. + +2757. You sell them south at a higher rate than you pay to the +knitters for them?-Yes; at a shade higher, some of them. + +2758. I have had evidence today from one gentleman that he +bought them and sold them at a lower price. Do you think that is +the case?-It is quite possible, and I have known instances of that +with myself. + +2759. Does that happen with you in some kinds of goods?-Yes; +with certain kinds of goods which are produced in larger quantities +than are required. + +2760. But that over-production does not continue over a long +period of time?-It does in the knitting trade with myself. I don't +pay off any of the knitters; I keep them on. + +2761. Can they not turn their attention to some other kinds of work +when there is too much stock of a particular kind?-It is generally +lacework, veils or shawls, that I give out for knitting. + +2762. But when there is an over-production of that kind of goods, +can the knitters not turn their hands to something else?-They do +so occasionally. + +2763. So that you have not an increasing stock of goods which you +cannot sell at a profit?-Very often they cannot get the wool with +which to make the coarser sort of goods. It is not to be got, and +there is a very large proportion of the Shetland wool sent south, +and sold as raw material. + +2764. Then the women are restricted to the articles for which they +have suitable wool?-Yes; both those who knit for themselves, +and those who knit with the wool which we give out. + +2765. That is to say, you have not always the kind of wool that you +want?-No; we cannot get a sufficient quantity of fine Shetland +wool; but I don't give out any wool for making coarse goods, only +the lace goods. I don't give out wool for such things as men's +underclothing and stockings. + +2766. Have you anything else to say?-No; there is nothing more +that occurs to me to say. + + +Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JAMES TULLOCH, examined. + +2767. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-I am. + +2768. You keep a drapery store?-Yes. + +2769. Do you sell any other goods?-The only grocery goods I sell +are tea and soap. + +2770. Do you purchase hosiery?-My chief business in it is +purchasing it. I have very few knitters employed. + +2771. Do you pay them in money or goods?-It is the +understanding that they are to be paid in goods; but I often give a +few shillings when they ask for it, [Page 61] both when purchasing +and when I employ the women to knit. I have only one or two +persons knitting for me in Lerwick just now, and not more than +three or four that I remember of in the country. My business in +that way is mostly done by purchase. + +2772. Do your knitters have pass-books?-No; the account with +them is just kept in the day-book and ledger. + +2773. You have an account in the ledger with each knitter?-Yes. + +2774. Does it show what proportion of the payment to the knitter +is made in cash?-No. In some cases the price is marked in and +sometimes not. + +2775. Then how do you know what you have paid if it is not +marked?-The transaction is very often carried through without +reference to the book at all, particularly in the case of a purchase. + +2776. But I am speaking only of those knitters whom you employ. +I am quite aware that in sales it generally a transaction that is +finished at the time; but in the case of your knitters, how do you +know how much is paid to them in cash?-I had many more +knitters at one time than I have now, but I have given them up. +With regard to the one who is knitting for me just now, I don't +remember whether she ever asked me for any cash upon her +knitting or not. + +2777. Have you only one woman knitting for you just now?-I +have only two, and one of them has had no knitting for some time. +I don't remember of either of these two having ever asked me for +money. + +2778. They have an account in your books, and they take goods, +and their account is balanced now and again?-Yes. + +2779. Do you sell worsted?-No. For the last few months I have +had a little of the Pyrenees wool to sell, and I have sold it. + +2780. Is that extensively purchased by people who wish to knit?- +There seems to be a good deal of it wrought into small articles at +present. I have never wrought up any of it. + +2781. Is it an article that is sold for cash?-Yes; but sometimes we +give it out upon the work that is brought in. + +2782. There is no difficulty made about giving it out upon a +transaction of that sort?-No; not that kind of it. I never object to +give Scotch wool. + +2783. But you do object to give the Shetland wool that is +purchased for cash?-Yes; we have a profit on the Pyrenees wool. + +2784. Why is it called Pyrenees wool?-I don't know. It is +sometimes called Scotch wool too. + +2785. Is it the practice in your shop to give workers lines for a +balance that is due upon goods sold?-Yes. + +2786. What is the form of these lines?-I have one or two of them +here. (Produces lines.) It is in this form: + + 'I O U 1s. 3d. in goods. + JAMES TULLOCH + 3. 1. 72.' + +There is a private mark in the corner which is only known to +myself, showing the amount; and there is also a private stamp on +the corner, as a guarantee for the genuineness of the line. + +2787. The other one which you produce is a blank form?-Yes. I +keep some of them on hand, ready for filling up. + +2788. Can your clerk issue them in your absence?-Yes; he knows +the private mark too, and he puts it there. + +2789. Do you keep a register of these notes?-No; they are just +given out as they are required, and goods are given for them when +they are brought in. Sometimes I have given goods for a note +which the people said they had lost or torn; but it is only as a +matter of convenience for them that they are given at all. + +2790. You would rather give the goods to them at once?-Yes. +Sometimes lines are given to them when we do not have a +particular thing they want; and we also give them out sometimes +when we are in a hurry. + +2791. Have you ever been asked to give money in return for these +lines instead of goods?-I cannot charge my memory just now +with any case of that kind, but sometimes it may happen. The +lines are only given out for goods purchased, and not for knitting; +and several times I have given 5s., and 4s., and 3s., and 2s., and so +on, in cash; but if they ask for much money on a shawl, the +understanding then is that I shall get it at a little less. + +2792. That is arranged at the time of the sale?-Yes. + +2793. But suppose the sale is concluded, and one of these lines is +given for the balance, do you then understand that the whole sum +due is to be taken in goods?-Yes. The reason why I expect to get +the shawl for a little less if large part of the price is wanted in +money, is because I never consider that I realize above what I pay +in goods for my hosiery, and very often there is a heavy discount +off. I have heard some of the other evidence which seems to clash +a little with that, but I can easily explain it. + +2794. What can you explain?-The apparent discrepancy between +the value received in goods, and what the articles realize in the +market. The hosiery market is a very uneven thing. + +2795. If there is anything you can explain on which Mr. Laurenson +and Mr. Sinclair have differed, I shall be glad to hear it?-Of +course it is not my business to try to reconcile their evidence, but +I was about to say that the hosiery market in the south is very +irregular. It is done to some extent by a kind of, I can hardly call it +favouritism, but there are houses in England that if they begin to +buy from one party, they will not afterwards buy from another. If +they get a very long credit, they will give a higher price, and I +know of persons they are constantly dealing with to whom they +will give 9s. or 10s., for an article, while they would only offer 6s. +or 7s. for it to another. + +2796. Are you now referring to people in the south?-Yes, +wholesale dealers. And just as we may happen to get into the good +graces of a good customer, so prices vary. + +2797. But every article has a different price of its own, I fancy? +You cannot price a Shetland shawl without seeing it and judging +of it both as to the material and the workmanship?-No; that is +quite true. + +2798. You cannot get twenty shawls of a certain size at the same +price?-No; but we can perhaps select them out of a greater +quantity. + +2799. But you cannot get twenty shawls made to order exactly of +the same value?-No. + +2800. What is your reason for carrying on that system of paying +in goods?-It has been of old date. It was the practice when I +commenced to the trade; but my own impression is that if a money +system were adopted, only a very few of the producers would +accept of it, because they would, as a consequence and as a +general rule, have to take 20 or 25 per cent. less in money than +they would get in goods. We buy with the understanding that we +are to realize what we pay in goods. As I have said, sometimes for +a certain article, or in a good market, a good deal more may be +realized; but then we have the risk of loss, and we have a heavy +discount; and therefore we have to live by the profit on the goods +we sell. If we were to pay in cash, then of course we must buy at +a lower rate, so as to give us some profit on the shawl, and +consequently if a woman were to come in with a shawl, and to +agree that the price was to be 20s. worth of goods, it is not likely +that, unless she was very hard up for money, she would take 15s. +or 16s. + +2801. Can you give me any instance in which you have paid a cash +price for a shawl which was lower than what you were willing to +give in goods?-I don't recollect any case of that kind just now, +except one. + +2802. How long ago was that?-Not very long; perhaps a few +months. + +2803. What were the circumstances of that transaction?-It was +one of these fine shawls. I don't know what I would have offered +for it, but the person said she would give it to me for £2 in money, +and it was agreed that that was to be the bargain. When [Page 62] +I saw the shawl, it did not turn out to be quite so good as I had +expected. The woman had got £1 of money at the time when the +bargain was made, and after that she had taken up some goods out +of the shop, and the balance of the price was taken out in goods. + +2804. The bargain was made in that case, before the shawl was +knitted?-No, the shawl was knitted. + +2805. I thought you said, it did not turn out to be quite so good as +you expected?-No, it was not quite so good when I came to see it +as I expected from hearing of it. + +2806. Had you looked at the shawl before you made the +bargain?-I had seen her knitting it. I may remark, that very often +these goods turn out better than they look when they are in an +undressed state, and sometimes much worse. + +2807. Have you any objection to adopt a cash system the people +are willing to agree to it?-Of course I would have no particular +objection; but my own impression is, that a cash system, if +adopted, would give a very great check to the sale of goods. + +2808. Don't you think it would be better for the merchant?-I +don't know. I think a merchant would never risk so much if he +had to pay in cash, or push so hard as he does now. + +2809. Would the merchant in that case not make sure of getting +two profits instead of one?-No, he would not do that. + +2810. He would have a profit on his hosiery, because he would buy +it at a cash price, and sell it at a price which would pay him for his +risk, would he not?-There much competition in the trade already +that the price kept up to its utmost point. Indeed, it is kept above +what the goods actually realize. + +2811. But if a man was depending upon the profit he was to get on +his hosiery, he would not pay more for it than he could afford?- +Of course he would not; but just as in other businesses, opposition +here is sometimes the life of trade, and sometimes it is the death of +trade. + +2812. How do you apply that principle here?-There is sometimes +such a keen competition that people cut up one another. + +2813. Do you think the competition, would be so keen that the +cash prices for the hosiery would be forced up to the level of the +goods prices that are paid now?-That would depend. Those who +had the best markets would be able to give the best, price, and no +doubt they might by that means be able to drive others +comparatively out of the trade. + +2814. Is it the case, that you generally send your shawls south at +such a figure as leaves you no profit upon them?-Taking it all in +all, I never have any profit on certain articles. When I have an +opportunity of selling to a private person, or when I get private +orders, I generally realize a profit, but when I sell to wholesale +merchants taking the thing as a whole, I consider that I have never +realized the full price of my goods from the hosiery which I have +sold. + +2815. Is that one of the reasons which lead you to continue the +system of paying in goods?-Of course, the system is quite +general. + +2816. No doubt; but supposing it were not general, would that be a +reason for continuing it in order that you might make a profit out +of the goods you give for the hosiery?-Of course I cannot say +exactly what it might be, further than that, as I have already stated, +we had to pay in cash, we would have to buy at considerably lower +rates, and I am not aware that there is such a demand in the south +as to enable us to do that. + +2817. But you say that at present you do not make a profit upon +the goods sent south?-Yes; I say that there is no profit upon the +goods sent south, taking it as a general thing. The profit I have is +upon the goods which I sell in exchange for the hosiery which I +buy. + +2818. You say you generally buy shawls: you do not get them +knitted for you?-No, I have very few knitted for me. + +2819. Suppose you pay 25s. for a shawl, at what price will you +invoice that to your southern customer?-Generally, I would just +invoice it at about the same price. Sometimes I am obliged to put +it lower, but when an article after dressing turns out to be better +than I expected, then I may put a shilling or so upon it. + +2820. Do you keep an invoice-book?-I keep no invoice-book, but +only a day-book and ledger. + +2821. The day-book shows the number of shawls you send south, +and the prices at which they are invoiced?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 4, 1872, WILLIAM JOHNSTONE, examined. + +2822. You are a merchant in Lerwick in the same line of business +that is carried on by Mr. Robert Sinclair?-Yes, something similar + +2823. You deal in the same articles, and purchase hosiery in the +same way?-Yes. + +2824. Do you also employ knitters?-Yes. + +2825. How many of them do you employ?-I can hardly tell. I +have very few just now. I have sometimes had as many as from 30 +to 50, but I have not nearly so many at present. I don't think I +have a dozen altogether just now. + +2826. Do they mostly live in Lerwick?-Yes. + +2827. Are these knitters so employed by you paid for their work by +taking goods, or do you, sometimes pay them in cash?-They are +generally paid by taking goods. If they ask for a little cash at any +time, I will give it. + +2828. Are their names entered in your books?-Yes. + +2829. Has each of them an account in your ledger?-Yes; a small +book which I keep for the purpose. [Produces book.] We generally +settle for an article when they bring it in, but sometimes there may +be a balance on one side or the other. + +2830. Does this book show the amount of cash that is paid for the +shawls brought in to you?-No. There are many transactions that +are never entered here at all. + +2831. But does the book show the amount of cash that is paid for +shawls which are knitted to order with your own wool?-No; +when I give out wool for the knitting of a shawl, no note of it +appears in the book at all. + +2832. What note do you take of it?-I merely take a memorandum +on a piece of paper. + +2833. Then you may have a lot of slips of that kind lying beside +you?-No. I very likely burn them whenever the shawls are +returned, and if I know the woman sufficiently well, I may give the +wool to her without keeping any note of it of any kind. + +2834. Do you trust to your memory for that?-Yes. I weigh the +wool before it goes out. + +2835. What proportion of the wages of these workers is paid by +you in money?-I cannot say. + +2836. Will there be a shilling in the pound paid money?-I cannot +say, but I think there will be more than that. + +2837. May there be 2s.?-I cannot say exactly. Perhaps if they +come with a shawl for which they are to get 8s. or 10s., they may +get 1s. or 2s. upon it, but if they did not ask it, they would not get +it. + +2838. The understanding is that you pay them goods?-Yes. + +2839. Are you often asked to give some money?-Very seldom; +but whenever they ask for money, they get it, or any other thing I +have in the shop. + +2840. Can you explain how women who knit for you support +themselves if they only get soft goods and tea for their knitting?- +There are very few of them who do not do other work. There may +be a few who do nothing but knit, but the greater part of the girls +and women who employ themselves at knitting have other work to +do besides. Some of them sew slop shirts for the agents shops, and +various other things. + +2841. These are required for the men who go to the +whale-fishing?-Yes. [Produces day-book.] The [Page 63] +details of the goods sent south are all there. It is only the amount +that is posted into the ledger. + +2842. What would be the cost of producing this one dozen socks +[showing]?-They were bought with barter for exactly the same +value of goods as is charged for them there. I have also to be at +the expense of dressing them and packing them, and then perhaps +lying out of my money for twelve months. + +2843. Then you dress them for nothing?-I must dress them for +nothing. + +2844. Is not that a loss to you?-Yes. + +2845. And you must pay yourself for that out of the profit on the +goods which you give for them?-Yes. + +2846. Is that a common thing in your trade?-I believe it is. Of +course there are some of the articles on which there is a profit. + +2847. I see here 'One brown half hap shawl, 3s. 9d.:' would there +be a profit upon that?-There would not be much; perhaps there +would be 8d. on it. + +2848. 'One large hap, 18s.:' would you have a profit on that?- +Yes; I might have about 2s. That article was made specially to +order. + +2849. Was it made with, your own wool?-Yes. + +2850. 'One white hap, 9s. 6d.?'-There might be about 1s. on that +hap. + +2851. Was it bought over the counter for goods?-I think that one +was made upon an order; but it was paid for by me in goods. + +2852. There is another one at 9s. 6d.?-That is one of the same +size and of the same colour. + +2853. Suppose that 9s. 6d. hap had not been made to order, but had +been bought over the counter and had been settled for with goods, +what profit do you suppose would have been upon it apart from the +goods?-I cannot say. + +2854. Was 9s. 6d. the price which you paid to the party selling, or +was it somewhat less?-It was 8s. 6d., and I would have a profit of +a shilling on it. + +2855. That was when it was knitted for you?-Yes. + +2856. But I am speaking of articles which were bought by you: +what profit would you have upon such an article then?-I could +not tell unless I knew the kind of goods they were to take for it. + +2857. But apart from the goods altogether, what would you give +for a shawl that you would sell for 9s. 6d., if it was offered to you +for sale?-Perhaps I might give 9s. 6d. worth or goods. + +2858. Would that be the usual way of dealing?-Sometimes it is. +It depends very much upon the quality of the article. Sometimes +we pay a dear price for them, and at other times we get them pretty +cheap. + +2859. Do you say that you generally buy an article of that kind at +the price payable in goods for which you sell it to the merchant in +the south?-Very often we do. + +2860. Therefore you take no profit off your hosiery at all?-In +some cases we do not. We cannot get it; we are glad to get what +we pay in goods for them. + +2861. So that the fact that you get your goods disposed of, is the +inducement which you have in buying an article over the +counter?-Yes. + +2862. Is that one of the reasons why this system of dealing in +goods continues?-I believe that is the very reason of it, and the +scarcity of money. + +2863. Do you approve of the system, or would you rather have +cash payments?-I would rather have cash payments. + +2864. In that case would you not have two profits instead of one? +You would make, sure of a profit on the hosiery, as you would be +able to pay for it in cash?-Yes. + +2865. And would you not have the same profit that you now have +on the goods that you give for the hosiery?-I think we might. + +2866. Would you not have a smaller profit upon them?-Of +course, if we were selling for cash over the counter, we would try +to cut the goods as low as we could. + +2867. If you were selling your goods for cash over the counter +instead of for hosiery, would you reduce your prices?-We could +do that quite easily; because often we buy hosiery articles which +lie on our hands for years and the moths get into them, and we get +nothing for them at all. + +2868. Therefore, in consequence of being paid in hosiery you must +put a higher price upon the drapery goods and tea that you sell?-I +do not put a higher price on them in consequence of that, because I +generally charge the same price to those from whom I get hosiery +as to those who pay me in cash. + +2869. But if there was no such thing as paying hosiery with goods, +you could sell your goods a little cheaper, because you must +calculate upon a little loss on the hosiery?-Yes. + +2870. So that both the customers who pay in hosiery, and those +who pay in cash, are made to pay for a possible loss upon the +hosiery?-Yes. + +2871. In that way they are made to pay rather higher for their +goods?-Yes. + +2872. Does not that rather show that the system is a source of loss +to the whole community?-There is not the slightest doubt about +it, but what can we do until things are put upon a better footing. + +2873. You would be glad to pay in cash if you could get your +goods disposed of?-I would be very glad. For one thing, it would +save us a little trouble. + +2874. There is a complicated system of bookkeeping entailed by +the present system?-There is. + +2875. Have you had any balances to settle on lines or +acknowledgments or vouchers?-No; I do not give any lines. I +have always been against it. + +2876. Did you give any formerly?-I gave them very rarely, unless +when I could not help it. + +2877. That is to say when a person came to sell hosiery to you and +she did not want to take the whole price out in goods, you gave her +a line?-Yes; if there was a balance then they would want a line +for it. + +2878. Would they not have preferred money?-They never asked +for money; at least very seldom. + +2879. How long, is it since you ceased to give these lines?-I have +not given any lines for the last two years, or nearly that time, and I +just gave them occasionally. + +2880. What was your reason for laying down that rule?-Because +there was such a great deal of bother about it. At a time when you +were busy they would come in and pop down their lines and that is +another secret in the line business. Some of the people like to sell +shawls and get a line for them and then they go away and give that +line to some other person, and that person comes in and orders +goods of different kinds and prices them at the lowest rate we can +give them for. Then, when they have screwed us down to the +lowest price, they throw their line down upon the counter the same +as if it were a bank-note. + +2881. They do so, after having bargained and bothered with you to +get you to reduce your prices, on the footing that they were to pay +you in cash?-Yes; and of course you cannot refuse the line when +it is offered to you. You must just take it and say nothing. + +2882. Was that one of the reasons why you gave up giving lines?- +It was not exactly for that I gave it up, but it was one of the +reasons, because it was a great annoyance and bother. They would +come in with the lines perhaps on mail-day, and bother us then. + +2883. But a person might come in with a shawl on mail-day, and +wish to take the value of it in goods. What would you do then?-I +might tell them to come back again, and they would do it. + +2884. Would they not do that if they had a line?-They would take +care of that. They would get the goods they wanted, and then they +would pop the line in. + +2885. Then you think you are under an obligation to serve the +people whenever they choose, if they have a line of yours?-Yes. + +2886. But if the people have bargained with you, and you had +offered them goods at a somewhat lower price for cash, and if a +line was then offered to you in the way you have mentioned, +would you not refuse to take the line in exchange for the goods?- +No, I would not. It would not be right to do it. + +[Page 64] + +2887. Would you not say,-If you are to pay with a line, you must +take the goods at the ordinary price?-I never thought of doing +that, and I don't think anybody would do it. + +2888. You would not like to have the appearance of drawing back +from your bargain?-No; it would not look very well. + +2889. Have you heard any of the evidence that has been given +to-day?-I was present when Mr. Laurenson was examined, and +also during the first part of Mr. Sinclair's examination. + +2890. Do you concur generally with the statements which Mr. +Laurenson made with regard to the trade in Lerwick?-Yes; I +think he gave a very just statement. + +2891. You think what he said was generally correct?-I think so. + +2892. Do you know how the women who live alone, and entirely +by knitting, get their provisions?-I used to keep meal, but I don't +do it now. I cannot do it, because it destroyed my place with +moths. + +2893. Do you know how these women supply themselves with +meal now?-I cannot say. + +2894. Most of them are likely employed at other work as well as at +nitting?-Yes. + +2895. But some of them will do nothing else?-There are very few +who do nothing else, except those who are in bad health, and who +are not able to work outside. + +2896. Have you known any of these women taking goods from you +and selling them again, in order to get money?-No; I never heard +of any one doing that, so far as I know. + +2897. But at the time when you gave I O U's they often exchanged +them for money?-Yes; or gave them to some other body to come +to my shop with them. These are the only cases where I knew of +them being exchanged. I heard yesterday, when I was present, that +yarn had been refused upon these lines, but I always gave them +yarn when they asked it from me. + +2898. Did you give them Shetland yarn?-I seldom had it for my +own use, but I have often given them Pyrenees wool. + +2899. I suppose the reason why the idea has arisen among the +knitters that they cannot get wool in exchange for their work, is +because Shetland wool is very difficult to get?-I suppose so. + +2900. The merchants don't keep it for sale?-No; they cannot get +enough of it. I may say that I supply the women with sugar and +tea, and with paraffin oil when have it. + +2901. I think you are the only soft goods merchant in Lerwick who +keeps sugar?-I don't know. Perhaps there are more; but I keep +sugar, tea, coffee, rice, and brimstone, which they need for +dressing their shawls. + +2902. Is it the case that your purchases of hosiery are more +commonly paid in tea and sugar than in drapery goods?-The +knitters who work to me generally take what tea and sugar they +require. They also take drapery goods when they need them. +When we buy hosiery over the counter, it is generally drapery +goods that are paid for them; but they get tea also if they ask for it. + +2903. The tea is made up in quarter-pound parcels?-Yes. + +2904. Do you know of any case where it has been exchanged after +being purchased from you?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 4, 1872, HUGH LINKLATER, examined. + +2905. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes. + +2906. Is the business which you carry on similar to that of Mr. +Laurenson?-No. I don't give out wool for people to knit. I only +purchase a little over the counter, and I do very little of any kind in +the fancy line. + +2907. You do more in the coarser hosiery?-Yes. + +2908. Do you deal largely in that business?-No, I don't do much +in hosiery at all. + +2909. What is your business?-Selling drapery goods. + +2910. Do you sell them in the ordinary way for cash?-Yes, and I +take a little hosiery when it is offered in exchange. + +2911. But the bulk of your transactions are in cash?-Yes. + +2912. Are you engaged in any other business?-No. + +2913. Do you concur generally in the evidence which Mr. +Laurenson gave, so far as the hosiery business is concerned?-I +do. I think he gave a very fair statement of it. + +2914. You do not wish to add anything to it?-No, for it is not +much that I do in that line. I may say that I don't do any in fancy +goods at all, I am not much acquainted with them. + +2915. But you have a considerable trade in drapery goods and tea +for cash?-Yes, or in exchange for goods. It is principally with +country people that I deal. + +2916. With small farmers and such like?-Yes. + +2917. Do you find that they are generally ready and able to pay +you in cash for the goods you sell?-There are some cases where I +hate to lie out of it for a good while. + +2918. But your general mode of dealing is in cash?-Yes; but if +they come forward with an article which is suitable for my hosiery +trade, I may take it and give them goods for it, the same as if they +were to pay me in cash. + +2919. Money payments are the rule in your shop, and hosiery the +exception?-Yes. + +2920. But when you are offered hosiery, is there a different price +charged by you for your I make no difference. I buy their hosiery, +such of it as I accept, the same as cash, and I expect to get a cash +price for it. + +2921. In selling hosiery, do you put a profit upon it?-By no +means. + +2922. You sell it at the price which you put upon it to the person +who brought it?-Yes, so that I can get the price of my goods. + +2923. You regard it merely as a currency in which you are paid for +your proper drapery goods?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JOHN MANSON, examined. + +2924. You were at one time a fisherman at Dunrossness?-Yes. + +2925. You are now employed on weekly wages by Mr. Harrison, +fish merchant, Lerwick?-Yes. + +2926. You cure his fish when they are landed in Bressay?-Yes. + +2927. You are his superintendent there and have charge of all his +men?-Yes. + +2928. How many men are employed under you?-It is generally +women and lads who are employed under me. + +2929. Is Mr. Harrison a large trader in the home fishing?-Not in +the home fishing; principally in the Faroe fishing. + +2930. Are his fish from that fishery landed in Bressay?-Yes. + +2931. How many people are generally employed there?-The +numbers vary according to the demand for work. They may range +from 80 to 60 hands daily for five months in the year, during the +fish-curing season. + +2932. Mr. Harrison has a store in Lerwick, where he sells all kinds +of provisions and dry goods?-Yes, he has a provision shop and a +clothier's shop; they are different shops. + +2933. Do you and the other persons employed in his fish-curing +establishment deal at these shops? Do you get your supplies for +your families there?-Not generally, unless we choose to do so. + +2934. But in point of fact, do you get many of your [Page 65] +supplies there?-I buy the greater part of my groceries from that +shop. + +2935. Is there any obligation upon you to do so?-No. + +2936. You have never been told that you ought to do that?-No. + +2937. Do you deal at the shop for ready money?-Yes. + +2938. You pay for the articles as you get them?-Yes. + +2939. How are your wages paid to you?-In cash. + +2940. Are you paid at the end of each week?-Yes; unless when +the weather prevents us from getting across the Sound, which does +not very often occur. + +2941. When you or any of your family come over to make your +market in Lerwick, and go to Mr. Harrison's shop, do you bring +with you the money which has been paid to you in Bressay?-We +are paid at Lerwick in Mr. Harrison's office, for our work; and if +we choose to go into either of his shops we can do so. We get the +cash at the office; and if we go to the shop, we pay that cash for +the soft goods or groceries which we get, but we can take the +money to any other shop we please. + +2942. Is the office near the shop?-The office and the clothier's +shop are connected they are both on the same premises. + +2943. Do many of the people employed under you deal at these +shops?-Not so far as I am aware. They do deal there in a certain +way, but not in a compulsory way. + +2944. Is there any system of pass-books carried on there?-Not so +far as I am aware. + +2945. You don't think any of them have pass books at the shop?- +I don't think it. I may mention in passing, that very often when we +get our wages, instead of being urged to buy from them, are +cautioned to use our wages in the most economical way possible, +and to go elsewhere if we think we can be better + +2946. Who cautioned you in that way?-Mr. Harrison himself. I +don't mention that as giving you an idea that there is any grievance +in the way of our not getting as good remuneration for our money +in these shops as we do elsewhere, but to show the independence +of the service. We are in no way bound. + +2947. I know that you have not come here because you have any +complaint at all?-No; I have no complaint to make in that way. + +2948. Do you find the supplies which you get in these shops to be +quite satisfactory?-Quite satisfactory. + +2949. Do you know anything with regard to the dealings at that +store of men employed, in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, a little. + +2950. Is that from your own personal knowledge, or merely from +hearsay?-A little from my own personal knowledge. I know the +way in which the men deal with regard to getting their outfit when +the fishing commences. + +2951. You know that they go to the store for their outfit and that is +put down in a ledger account against each man?-Yes, each man +has generally a private account for himself. + +2952. The contract for the Faroe fishing is that the fisherman +makes certain supplies for the ship, and he is to get one half of the +take?-Yes. + +2953. Is the price for the fish fixed at the beginning of the season +or at the end?-At the end. + +2954. And no fisherman knows the price he is to get until the +settlement time comes round?-Not so far as the Faroe fishing is +concerned. + +2955. During the absence of the fisherman at the fishing, are his +family generally supplied with goods from the employer's store?- +Generally; if the family are in circumstances to require supplies. +Plenty of them do not require them, but those who do are supplied +in that way. + +2956. Do you mean that they are supplied with goods?-They are +supplied with goods and cash. + +2957. How does it happen that some of them do not require +supplies?-A few of them live in the country, and have little +patches of land, and they do not require so much goods during the +season as others. + +2958. Do you know the way in which the business is conducted as +between these fishermen and the store?-So far as I know, they +get what they ask. + +2959. Do they get what money they ask?-They get money or +goods, whatever they ask. + +2960. And an account runs, which is settled at the end of the +year?-Yes. + +2961. Is there any obligation on these Faroe fishermen to deal at +the store?-Not so far as I am aware. + +2962. Are they not obliged to deal there for their outfit?-It is +generally understood that they will take their outfit there, because +it is more like giving them an advance of money than anything +else. + +2963. What is the name of Mr. Harrison's store-keeper in +Lerwick?-There is no special storekeeper; he has several +shopkeepers. + +2964. But who attends to the shop?-James Mouat is in the +clothier's shop. + +2965. Who gives out the stores to the fishermen for their outfit?- +Mouat generally gives them anything in the way of soft goods, and +Gilbert Harrison, junr. supplies them with what they require in the +provision shop. + +2966. However you have not much experience of that part of the +business?-Not much. + +2967. I suppose you don't know much about Dunrossness at +present?-Not much just now; it is ten years since I was a regular +resident there. + +2968. Have you been there lately?-It is about twelve months +since I was there last. + +2969. Have you relations living there still?-Yes. I have brothers +there. + +2970. What was the reason for your leaving Dunrossness?- +Because I thought I could better myself elsewhere. + +2971. Had you a farm there?-Yes. + +2972. Have you one here?-No. + +2973. When you were at Dunrossness, were you bound to fish to +any particular person?-No; I happened not to be bound at that +time, but I was singular in that respect because there were not +many who were not bound. + +2974. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a fisherman not to be +able to fish for any one he likes?-It is quite common where the +landlord is also a fishcurer. + +2975. Can you tell me any men who are so bound in any part of +the islands?-I think that generally the tenants on the estates of Mr +Grierson and Mr. Bruce are bound to fish for their landlords. + +2976. You don't know any other case within your own knowledge +where a fisherman has been checked for fishing to another than his +landlord or tacksman?-No, not within my own knowledge. + +2977. Nor for taking goods from a store other than that of his +landlord, or employer?-No; I understand that is the case in other +parts of Shetland, but only from report. I don't know it from +personal knowledge. + +<Adjourned>. + + +[Page 66] + +Lerwick: Saturday, January 6, 1872. +<Present>-Mr. Guthrie. + +MALCOLM MALCOLMSON, examined + +2978. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick?-I am. + +2979. Do you hold land there?-My father holds land under Mr. +Bruce of Simbister. + +2980. Robert Mouat was formerly tacksman of Channerwick and +Levenwick under Mr. Bruce?-Yes. + +2981. He carried on a fish-curing business there up till last year?- +Yes. + +2982. During the time he held the tack, were the tenants there in +use to fish for and deliver their fish to Mouat?-Yes. + +2983. Was it supposed that there was an obligation on them to +deliver their fish to him only?-Yes; they thought so. + +2984. Was it the case that there was such an obligation?-It was +not, but in their ignorance, they did not know otherwise. + +2985. How do you know it was not the case?-Because +afterwards, when he was put out of the place, Mr. Bruce, the +proprietor, told them they never were bound to Mouat; only that if +he gave them as high a price as was given in the country, and +served them as well in every respect as they could be served +anywhere else, why should they not fish to him as well as to +another? If, however, Mouat came anything short of that, then +they were under no obligation whatever, but they could put their +produce where they pleased, and they had only to pay him their +rent on a given day. + +2986. When did Mr. Bruce tell you that?-In 1871. + +2987. Had he never told you so before?-He never told the tenants +that before. He had given a statement to Mouat before, but Mouat +never revealed it to the tenantry until after his departure; and then +it was known, and only then, how matters stood. + +2988. To whom did Mr. Bruce make that statement? Was it in +writing, or to some particular person?-I could not exactly answer +that for I have never seen the statement myself. It is only from +hearsay among the tenantry at large that I know about it. + +2989. Have you heard that from many of the tenants?-Yes, from +many. + +2990. What is your father's name?-Malcom Malcolmson. He is +unable to come here, unless it is absolutely necessary. + +2991. Is he not in good health?-No; not at present. + +2992. Was it the practice in Mouat's time to require the tenants to +deliver their fish to him only?-Yes. + +2993. Did he object to their selling them to others?-Yes. + +2994. Did he turn out any people for doing so, or threaten to turn +them out?-He threatened a few, and turned out one + +2995. Who was that one?-Henry Sinclair, Levenwick. + +2996. Was that a long time ago?-Yes; a few years ago. I don't +remember the number of years in particular but it is a good while +ago. + +2997. You have given me a letter in these terms: + + 'MOUL, 18<th Jan>. 1869. + 'Mr. Malcolm Malcolmson. + 'Dear Sir,-I am sorrey to think that I shoud hav met to-day +what I have, but you will be pleased to lok out for A place at +Martamas 1869, + 'ROBT. MOUAT, +'as I am goen to set your land.' + +What had he met that day?-He had received intelligence from his +storekeeper at Channerwick that Malcolm Malcolmson's son (that +is myself) had given part of the fish of Thomas Jamieson's boat to +another fish-merchant, Thomas Tulloch, in Sandwick parish. + +2998. Does Tulloch live in Sandwick?-Yes, near Sand Lodge. + +2999. He keeps a shop and cures fish there?-Yes. + +3000. How do you know that that was the reason for this letter +being written?-Because Mouat told my father himself in my +presence. + +3001. Was that before or after the letter was received?-It was +after the letter was received, and when my father asked the reason +why he was to give his land to another. + +3002. Was your father put out of the farm at that time?-He was +not. + +3003. How did that happen?-Because he lost the use of one of his +hands or of his right thumb, and Mouat had a sort of sympathy +with him as being unable to earn his bread as he used to do before, +and therefore he let him alone for a season until he could get round +again, and regain perfect health and strength, but before that +season rolled round, Mouat was out the place himself. + +3004. Did you consider yourselves bound to take goods from +Mouat's store?-We could not do anything else. + +3005. Why?-Because we had no money to purchase them with +from other stores. We received no money during the fishing +season. + +3006. Did you ever ask for advances of money during the fishing +season?-Yes; but they were refused. + +3007. Why?-Because he just would not give it. He gave no +reason, except that he could not give it. + +3008. But you would get any kind of goods you wanted?-Yes. + +3009. What was the quality of the goods at Mouats' store?-They +were of a very inferior quality to what we could purchase +anywhere else in the island. + +3010. Are you speaking just now from your own knowledge, or +from the common understanding of the people about?-I am +speaking from nothing else but my own knowledge. + +3011. But are you a good judge of the quality of goods?-I cannot +say that I am a very good judge, only I know well enough a bad +article from a good one. + +3012. What particular thing are you speaking of just now?-Say +cottons, moleskins, and cloth. + +3013. And what as to the provisions?-They were of inferior +quality as well. We had meal from his store which he called his +second flour. It was as dear, if not dearer, than we could purchase +it anywhere else, and it was of such a quality that it could not be +eaten by human beings. + +3014. Then you did not eat it?-It had to be eaten for the support +of life, while it existed; but had it not been for the provisions that +came from other stores, and from people who had them to sell, +Mouat's tenantry could not have been alive now, and I among the +rest. + +3015. How could they get provisions from other stores if they had +no money to purchase them with?-They made a statement of how +they were situated under Mouat, and how they could not receive +any meal at all, and that they had to give all their fish to him; and +the other shopkeepers felt such sympathy for them, that they gave +them supplies to save their own lives and the lives of their +families, and to put the men to the fishing. At the same time, +when they gave them these supplies, they had no expectation +whatever of receiving anything for them from a good many, +because they were so poor that they could not give it. + +3016. Do you think the storekeepers gave the fisher [Page 67] men +credit, without any expectation of being repaid?-One of the +shopkeepers told me so himself. + +3017. Who was that?-James Smith, Hill Cottage, Sandwick +parish. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, WILLIAM MANSON, examined. + +3018. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick, in Sandwick parish?- +Yes. + +3019. Do you hold a piece of land under Mr. Bruce of +Simbister?-Yes. + +3020. It was formerly included in the tack to Robert Mouat?-Yes. + +3021. Were you bound to fish for Mouat?-Yes. + +3022. Did you give your fish to any other merchant during the time +of his tack?-Yes. In 1870, the year that Mouat failed in business, +I gave my fish to James Smith, because I saw I could not live for +want of meal, and therefore I and some others were determined to +give our fish where we could get both meat and money; and for +doing so, Mouat served me with a summons. + +3023. Were Smith and Tulloch the only fish merchants in that +neighbourhood besides Mouat?-Yes; they cure fish, but not in a +large way. + +3024. But they buy your fish, and sell you provisions and goods?- +Yes. + +3025. In consequence of selling your fish to Smith, did you receive +a letter from Mouat?-Yes; I have lost that letter. + +3026. Did it warn you that you were to leave your ground?-Yes. + +3027. Did you also get a formal warning to quit?-I did. I have it. +[Produces summons of removing.] + +3028. This is a summons at the instance of Robert Mouat, residing +in Lerwick, principal tenant under Robert Bruce, Esq. of +Simbister, dated 29th September 1870, giving you warning to +leave at Martinmas: was that summons served upon you by a +sheriff officer?-Yes. + +3029. Did you leave in consequence of it?-No; it was in the latter +part of the harvest that I received it, which was a very inconvenient +time for me to leave, and I went to Mouat and spoke to him about +it. He told me that if I would promise to be an obedient tenant, +and agree to fish for him the same as I had been doing before, and +pay the expense of the summons, I could stay. I knew that it was +then coming towards the end of his lease, and I agreed to do that. +If I had thought he was to continue longer on the place, I would +have left. + +3030. Did you pay for the summons?-I did. + +3031. You have handed me another letter in the following terms: + + 'MOUL, 1869, <Jan>. 18<th>. + 'THOMAS JAMIESON. + 'LAURANCE MALCOLMSON. + 'WILLIAM MANSON. + 'WILLIAM MOUAT. + + 'I this day duly give you notice to look out for A house at +Martamas 1869, as I am not incline to keep such men as you for +your preasent condick. + + 'ROBERT MOUAT.' + + +3032. What does that letter refer to?-It was sent to us because we +had allowed Malcolm Malcolmson to give his share of the fish +away to another merchant than Mouat. + +3033. You understood Mouat to refer to Malcolmson having sold, +his fish to Tulloch?-Yes. + +3034. This letter was written at an earlier period than the warning +you received yourself?-Yes, the year before. + +3035. How do you know it was that particular act on your part +which caused this letter to be written?-Because Mouat told me so +himself. + +3036. When did he tell you so?-That same year, just a few days +after the letter was written + +3037. How was it that you did not leave your ground at that +time?-We just never minded him, but went on as we had been +doing. I and the rest of the men fished for him, and that man +fished for Thomas Tulloch as he had been doing, and Mouat never +asked anything about it afterwards. He just annulled the letter, as +it were. + +3038. You have produced another summons of removing: what +does it refer to?-It is the summons that was served upon another +man, Thomas Jamieson, at the same time that the summons was +served upon me, and for the same thing. He knew that I was +coming here, and he wanted me to bring his summons also, that I +might show it to you. He had also fished for James Smith in 1870. + +3039. Have you anything to say about Mouat's shop?-It was very +little worth. + +3040. Did you get all your goods there?-Yes. + +3041. Were you obliged to take them there?-We were because +we could not get them anywhere else. + +3042. Did Mouat tell you that you must take them from him?-He +did not say that we must take them; but when we were fishing for +him, and getting no money, we were obliged to go and take our +goods from his shop. Although they had been double the price of +what they were anywhere else, we had no other way of doing. We +could not make a better of it. + +3043. You think the quality of the articles you got there was not +good?-It was not. + +3044. The meal especially was bad?-Yes; the meal was worst. + +3045. Was the tea good?-No; it was bad, and it was dear. + +3046. For whom were you fishing last year?-For James Smith. + +3047. Are you perfectly at liberty now to fish for any one you +please?-Yes, we are at perfect liberty. + +3048. Smith is not a tacksman?-No; he just takes our fish, and +pays us well for them, as high as can be got in the place. + +3049. Do you deal at Smith's shop?-Yes. + +3050. And you settle with him annually?-Yes; I have just settled +with him this week. + +3051. Had you a balance to receive from him?-Yes; £4, 14s. + +3052. That was your balance of the season's fishing, after +deducting the price of the goods you had got during the season +from his shop?-Yes. + +3053. Is that a usual balance in a good season, or is it under or +over?-It is just about the general thing. + +3054. Was that paid to you in cash?-Yes. + +3055. You paid your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes. + +3056. Have Hay & Co. any fish-curing places in that +neighbourhood?-No, they have a place down at Dunrossness, but +that is a long way from us. + +3057. You are not expected to fish for them?-No; we have heard +nothing about that yet. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT ANDERSON, examined. + +3058. You are principal shopman to Mr. Robert Linklater, +merchant, Lerwick?-Yes. + +3059. I understand you desire to make some explanation with +regard to the evidence of two women who were examined here?- +Yes; of Margaret Tulloch, and of Mrs. Thomas Anderson, +Margaret Tulloch said she refused to take worsted from us to knit, +because she could not get cash for her work. I have to state that +we refused to give her work because she kept it so very long; and +when she was asked why she had kept it so long, she said she had +so many lodgers, that she had scarcely any time for knitting. The +last thing she had from us was a small handkerchief, the knitting of +which was worth 1s. 6d., and which could easily be [Page 68] +made in three days. She had it in hand for two days short of five +months. Mrs. Anderson made the same remark, that she would not +take worsted, because she could not get cash for her knitting. I +have the same explanation to make with regard to her, that we +refused her work because kept it too long. She got a little shawl to +knit on 28d February 1870, and she returned it to use on 14th +June. The knitting of it cost 2s. + +3060. You find that from your work-book?-Yes. When we asked +her why she kept the work so long, she replied that she had so +much out-door work to do, that she had scarcely any time for +knitting. Then there was one of the girls Brown, Mrs. Tait, who +was examined the first day, and who said, I think, that I would not +give her cash, but would only give it to my favourites. There are +some sisters of that family, and the book was in name of one of the +sisters. I only recollect her asking me once for a shilling, which I +gave her. + +3061. If she got cash, would it not appear in the book?-Yes. + +3062. Did she sometimes deal with you in the way of selling her +hosiery?-No. + +3063. She always knitted for you?-Yes. On 2d July 1869 there is +cash 1s. marked: that is the only time I recollect her asking it; and +she got it, although I may have made the remark when handing it +to her, that we were not in the habit of giving cash. I did not +refuse it for all that, but in the act of handing it I may have made +that remark. + +3064. Mr. Linklater stated that there are about 300 people knitting +for him: are the names of all these parties entered in your +work-book in separate accounts?-Yes. [Produces work-book.] + +3065. Will you show me the way, you make settlement with one of +your workers?-Here [showing] is the case of Mary Henry, a +country girl. + +3066. Is that a good enough instance of it?-Yes. She brings in +ten veils, and she has to get 1s. each for knitting them. That is +entered to her credit. She will ask what she is to get, and we tell +her. Then she will take whatever she wants at that time. She may +have sent the veils in with another girl, and come in afterwards +herself to get the goods. + +3067. I see she has taken out 17s. 41/2d., worth in goods?-She had +taken out the amount she had to get, and she brought in other ten +veils afterwards, the date of which I find is not marked. Then she +asked what she had to get, and she was told it was 4s. 111/2d. We +would ask her if she was to settle for that, and she said yes, and we +marked it settled. + +3068. Was that 4s. 111/2d, which is marked as the balance due to +her, paid in cash or got in goods?-It was got in goods entirely. + +3069. The items of that do not appear here?-No. When we are +busy we scarcely have time to enter all the items; but at other +times, when we are not so busy, we enter them all. + +3070. It is a rule in your business that you do not give lines for a +balance of that kind?-Yes. + +3071. You do not give them on a purchase of goods either?-No. + +3072. Do the purchases of goods from parties who do not knit with +your worsted appear in any of your books?-No; unless a balance +is left, and it appears in the end of the day-book where I now point +it out. [Showing.] On page 38 there is the account of Helen +Arcus, our dresser. + +3073. Is that Mrs. Arcus who has been examined?-No; she does +not dress for us. That account of Helen Arcus is entirely for +dressing. + +3074. Is it settled by goods?-No. I wish to explain how we deal +with her. She gets out a quantity of shawls and veils or neckties to +dress. When they are finished, she brings them down to our +hosiery shop where we keep our hosiery and she gets the amount +marked on a bit of a line with which she goes to the other shop. I +ask her what she wants and perhaps if the amount is 8s. 71/2d. she +will ask for a quarter pound of tea for 10d. I then ask her what she +wants next, and she says, 'I want 2s. or 3s. in cash.' There is then +a balance left, which I mark in the book thus 'By 4s. 81/2d.,' which +stands as a balance due to her. If she wants any cash in the interim +between that time and the time when she brings down her +dressing, she comes to the shop and gets cash, say 6d., or any +goods she requires. She gets at the very least 5s. a week in cash all +the year round. That does not appear in the book, but she gets +whatever she asks. + +3075. How do you balance the account when the time comes for +doing that?-We add up the two sides of it. + +3076. I see that each line in the account contains both debit and +credit entries?-Yes, but there are two money columns at the end, +and the entries are carried out to them according as they are debit +or credit. + +3077. How do you do with regard to sending goods south?-When +we get orders for Shetland goods in the winter time, they go to our +house in Edinburgh. We have already forwarded goods there, and +they are kept in store; the orders received at that season are +executed there, and a statement is sent down to us. This +[producing document] is one of the statements which have been +sent from Edinburgh for veils, and here [producing document] is +another for shawls. I have brought a sample of each. + +3078. The veils are numbered according to quality?-Yes. When +we send them of different prices, there must be a different number, +to let the people in the south know what the prices are. + +3079. You fix the price here at which they are to be sold in +Edinburgh?-Yes. + +3080. That is the wholesale price?-Yes. Here is June 4: 4 dozen +grey veils No. 1, 18s.-£3, 12s.; 4 dozen grey veils No. 6, 21s.- +£4, 4s.; 3 dozen No. 7, 27s.-£4, 1s. + +3081. Have these grey veils No. 1 been knitted for you by your +own knitters?-The principal part of them; but we buy some. + +3082. Show me one of the entries of the payment to a knitter for +these veils?-I could scarcely show it for these identical veils. + +3083. But for veils of the very same quality?-I should think this +[showing] would be of the same quality: '10 veils, 9d.-Barbara +Pottinger, Burra Isle.' + +3084. Then the No. 1 veil which you sell at 1s. 6d. would cost 9d. +for the knitting?-We pay 9d. for the knitting of it. + +3085. You give out the worsted: what will that cost?-I should +think for the coarsest, about 5d. + +3086. Would that be the price you pay for it, or the price you +would ask for it from a knitter?-It is the price we pay for it; it is +Shetland wool. + +3087. Which you don't sell?-Which we don't sell. We sell no +kinds of wool. + +3088. What does the veil cost you for dressing?-11/2d. + +3089. Is there any other expense connected with?-There is not on +that identical veil, but there is other expense connected with the +trade. + +3090. Have you to pay freight?-Not freight; but when we get a +quantity of goods of that kind, perhaps one-half of them cannot be +sold as they are. The colour is so uneven, that we have to send +them south and dye a great part of them. + +3091. Do you send one-half of each lot south?-Sometimes +one-half, and sometimes more and sometimes less. + +3092. What is the cost of dyeing?-We pay 1s. a dozen for dyeing; +and there is the freight south and the freight back again, and we +require to re-dress a great many of them. + +3093. So that some of these veils may actually cost you 1s. 6d.?- +Yes; and some of them cost less. + +3094. What margin of profit does that leave?-I really cannot say. +I think no Shetland merchant can tell the exact profit he has on any +of his goods. + +3095. But there are a number of incidental expenses of that kind, +which bring the actual cost of the veils up to about 1s. 6d. +apiece?-Yes. + +[Page 69] + +3096. May that be said with regard to other goods also?-It can be +said of shawls. + +3097. You think the expenses of that kind for sending south, and +dyeing and re-dressing, often make the cost of production nearly +equal to the selling price?-Yes; and in many cases more than the +selling price. + +3098. How much wool would there be in a dozen of these Shetland +veils?-I should say there would be twenty-one cuts of Shetland +wool in a dozen No. 1 veils at 18s. + +3099. What is the price of that Shetland wool per cut?-3d. is the +price for a fairish quality. Some of the veils turn out very bad +from the 3d. worsted, while others turn out to be a little better. + +3100. Therefore the worsted costs 5s. 3d., the knitting 9s., and the +dressing 1s. 6d.: that leaves 2s. 3d. What proportion of these veils +can go to the market without any dyeing or re-dressing?-I don't +think there will be more than half of them. The worsted looks +very well before it is given out to the knitter; but when it comes +back, there are dark and light bars through it. + +3101. Then upon one-half of them you have the expense of a +double freight to Edinburgh, and also the expense of dyeing and of +re-dressing?-Yes. + +3102. But it is only a fraction of those sent south require to be +re-dressed when they come back?-They all require to be +re-dressed when they come back from the dyers. + +3103. What dyers do you send them to?-P. & P. Campbell, +Cockburn Street, Edinburgh. + +3104. What is their charge for dyeing?-I think it 1s. 6d.; but they +give 5 per cent. off at the end of the season. + +3105. Coming to the English wool; I see there are four dozen black +veils No. 5s. 33s., made with English wool: what quantity of wool +is required to make dozen of these?-It requires about 3 oz. for a +dozen, or about a quarter oz. to make a single veil. + +3106. Do you sell that wool by the ounce or the pound?-We buy +it by the pound, at 32s. 6d. + +3107. Then 3 oz. would cost about 6s.?-Yes; a fraction over that. +We don't give them to the knitters here; we give them to a person +in the country, who gets them knitted for us. We pay 14s. for the +knitting of them to that person in the country. + +3108. Is there any particular reason for employing a party in the +country for that kind of goods?-We think we can get them better +done in that district of the country. + +3109. Where is that?-In Unst. + +3110. Who is your agent there?-It is a private person. I would +rather not tell her name in public. + +3111. What is the expense of dressing these veils?-1s. 6d. a +dozen. + +3112. Does the same proportion of them require dyeing as in the +other case?-No; none of these require dyeing, because they are +black. + +3113. Then there is no expense for dyeing with regard to them?- +Very seldom. + +3114. Is that sum of 21s. 6d. the whole cost of production of these +veils?-No. + +3115. What additional cost is there?-There is about the same +proportion of them both in the knitting and in the dressing that gets +damaged, we cannot get the prices for them that we allow for the +knitting. + +3116. Do you mean that such a large proportion of them are +destroyed in the knitting and the dressing, that you cannot sell +them?-Yes; we cannot sell them at very much more than +half-price. + +3117. What proportion of them are so damaged?-I cannot say +exactly; but I should think about the same proportion as in the +other case. + +3118. Therefore the high price you put upon these veils is intended +to cover the loss incurred in that way?-Yes. + +3319. The damage, I understand, occurs in the dressing?-Yes; +and in the knitting too. There are a good many black lumps in the +wool, and the people are very careless, and knit in the black lumps, +and thus destroy the veils. + +3120. Under what description do you sell these damaged veils?- +As job lots; but I wish to state that the woman whom we employ in +this way is a dealer, and we have to give the goods to her at a very +great reduction. We have to give them to her at the wholesale +price. The goods which we pay for the knitting are sold much +cheaper to her than to others. + +3121. You pay this woman in goods?-Yes; at wholesale prices. +It is almost the same as cash, because we have to give the goods so +much cheaper. + +3122. Does she keep a shop?-No; but she deals in a small way. I +think she has a room in which she has some small things. It is in +one sense a shop, and in another it is not. + +3123. Do you require as much as 11s. 6d. to cover what you lose +on the job lots?-I think we do. + +3124. Have you any books here which show an entry of a job lot of +that kind?-I don't have them here. + +3125. How does that appear in your books?-They are entered as +so many dozen veils job. + +3126. They are entered in that way in your day-book as sent south +to your correspondent in Edinburgh?-Yes; there are a good many +of the same kind of veils, which having to lie over the season get +crushed, and are taken back and re-dressed, and sent south again. + +3127. But losses of that kind occur in all trades, I suppose?-I +suppose so. + +3128. You said you would charge for a job lot about half-price?- +Less than half-price. + +3129. Can you calculate how many job lots there would be out of +say ten dozen of these black veils?-I have often taken one-half of +them out for job lots. + +3130. Do you say that, as a rule, there would be five dozen job lots +in ten dozen black veils?-Very often there are that number. + +3131. Would that be an average?-I think average is scarcely so +high, but very near it. + +3132. Then, of all the black veils No. 5 sent to your correspondent +in Edinburgh, nearly one-half will be job lots?-Yes; of the one +kind of veils-that is-the finest kind. There are very few of the +cheaper veils jobbed in the same way, + +3133. Why are there so many of them in these fine veils?-The +worsted is so fine, that they get torn, and the slightest mistake +injures them. + +3134. Will you show me an entry of some veils of the medium +quality?-Here [showing] is an entry of No. 7 veils at 24s.: these +are Shetland wool. + +3135. I would rather take a case where English wool was used?-I +don't think there is any case of that kind there. No. 2 is the only +one very near it of English wool. + +3136. Here [showing] is an entry of four dozen black veils No. 2, +21s.: what would the cost of wool be there?-About 10s. 6d, per +pound. + +3137. What quantity of wool would be required for a dozen?-I +think 1 oz. would make three veils., + +3138. Then 4 oz. would make a dozen; that is 2s. 71/2d. as the cost +of wool for a dozen?-Yes. + +3139. What would be the cost of knitting a dozen?-12s. in goods. + +3140. And of dressing?-1s. 6d. + +3141. Have you to dye these?-No; we don't dye them. + +3142. Is there the same risk of loss from their being spoiled as in +the other case?-Not quite the same; but there are a certain +number of job lots there too. + +3143. What proportion of job lots may there be in that sort of +veil?-Generally from one-eighth to one-fourth of the whole. + +3144. Do these sell at half-price, or more than half-price?- +Generally about half-price-sometimes a shade less and +sometimes a shade more, according to the state of the market. + +3145. Then the price you charge for them, 21s. is calculated to +cover the loss upon job lots?-Yes. + +3146. There is thus a difference of nearly 5s. between the cost +price and the selling price of these No. 2 veils: is it not the fact that +that difference is allowed for profit?-It is the fact that it is not +allowed for a profit: the profit is not so much. + +[Page 70] + +3147. But it is calculated so as to allow you a certain amount of +profit?-Yes; a certain amount. + +3148. That is not the actual profit receive; but the price is so +calculated as to cover the loss upon job lots and to allow you a +certain amount of profit as well?-Yes. + +3149. In fact, so as to make it safe that you may get some profits- +Yes. + +3150. Is that not so with the prices, of all your hosiery goods?- +With the lace goods that we get knitted it is the case. We only put +out lace goods to be knitted; we buy all the other goods over the +counter. + +3151. What do you mean by lace goods?-Lace shawls and veils, +principally, and neckties. + +3152. Do you call all the open lace goods Shetland goods, whether +they are made of English or Shetland wool?-Yes. + +3153. This [showing] is an invoice of shawls?-Yes. + +3154. Is there any material difference, with respect to the shawls, +from the calculations with regard to the cost of production and +profit which we have just made with respect to the veils?-I think +it is very similar. + +3155. It comes to something like the same thing?-Yes; but the +difference is not quite so marked. + +3156. You think there is not so much difference in the cost to you, +in the case of shawls, as in the case of veils?-No; because we +don't get job shawls, and we don't require to guard against that. + + +3157. Are there no job shawls at all?-It is extremely seldom that +there are any. + +3158. Therefore, in that case, you require to make the margin +less?-Yes. + +3159. What do you think would be the percentage of profit upon +the lots of veils and shawls mentioned in this account +[showing]?-I really could not say. I am quite sure that no person +in the trade could tell that. + +3160. You have never made an exact calculation of it?-Never. + +3161. Can you give me an approximation to it? Will it be 10 per +cent.?-Yes; it will be more. + +3162. Will it be under 15?-I think it will be. + +3163. That is not taking into consideration the fact that they are +paid for in goods?-There is nothing like 15 per cent. in that view. +I am taking the whole profit in every way connected with them. + +3164. But the question I am asking is, whether, calculating the cost +of production in money as I have done just now, and calculating +the selling price in money, the profit realized upon these two +invoices you have handed to me will amount to 10 or 15 per +cent.?-I don't exactly understand the question. + +3165. We have been calculating the cost of the article to you?- +Yes; and the real cost to us, I would say the profit will be 15 per +cent. + +3166. Then, in addition to that, you sell goods to the parties who +bring in the articles?-Not in addition to that. + +3167. You don't mean to say that you give your goods in return for +these articles at cost price?-No, we don't. + +3168. You have a profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we don't have +a separate profit of 15 per cent. on the hosiery. + +3169. But the purpose of the calculations we have been going into +just now is to show what the hosiery costs?-Yes; what is the cost +to Mr. Linklater. + +3170. How do you get at the actual cost?-I cannot get at it +exactly. I really don't know what it is. + +3171. But when you say you pay a woman 10s. for knitting, that is +marked down in your book as the price paid to her for knitting, just +in the same way as if it had been paid in money?-Yes; but I say +that we don't have 15 per cent. of profit on these goods over and +above the profit we have on the goods given to the knitter. + +3172. But, setting aside in the meantime the fact that the women +are paid in goods, and supposing that the 10s. entered in your book +is paid to the knitter in cash, do you mean to say that your profit is +not 10 or 15 per cent.?-If it was cash, I should say it was 10 or 15 +per cent.,-on some things a little more, and on some things a +little less. + +3173. I am speaking of the hosiery exclusively at present; but in +point of fact the 10s. that is entered in your book as the cost of +knitting is invariably, or almost invariably, settled for by means of +goods on the other side of the account?-Yes. + +3174. Are these goods charged to the knitter at wholesale prices or +at retail prices?-At retail prices. + +3175. Then that retail price implies that there is a profit on the +goods?-That is what I am saying; but I say that we don't have 15 +per cent. profit on the shawls, and a profit on the goods besides. I +say that if we were paying the actual cash for the knitting of the +shawls, then we might have 15 per cent. of profit. + +3176. Do you mean that if you were paying actual cash for the +knitting of the shawls, you would allow smaller profit on your +goods?-I do. + +3177. Then when you said with regard to the grey veils No. 1, at +18s., that the cost of knitting was 9s. a dozen, that payment to the +knitter was higher than if you paid her in cash?-Yes. + +3178. How much higher?-I think that one would not be safe in +that case to pay more than 7s. or 7s. 6d., but some knitters make +rather better things than others. Of course that is only my own +opinion, and it is a thing I have never discussed either one way or +another. + +3179. You don't sell the Shetland worsted?-No. + +3180. And you say an average price for it is 3d. a cut?-Yes; fine +worsted may be from 3d. to 6d. a cut. + +3181. The payment for that is generally in goods?-No, it is +generally in cash, but we do sometimes get it for goods. + +3182. You pay for it generally in cash: how do you account for that +deviation from your general practice in Shetland?-We buy a good +lot of it from merchants, and there are a good many old women +who spin for a living, who we think require the cash. There is also +such a demand for it that we are very glad to get it for cash, when +the market is generally overstocked with everything else. + +3183. Is there much Shetland wool sold in the southern +markets?-No; we only send very small quantities of it south, for +darning purposes. + +3184. Are you aware whether there are merchants in Shetland, +either in Lerwick or in the country, who send Shetland wool to the +southern markets?-I know it has been sent from Yell. + +3185. To a large extent?-No; it is not produced to a large extent. +All that is produced in Shetland is very trifling. + +3186. How did it happen to be sent from Yell?-Because a hosiery +merchant in the south, who was selling their goods, got an order +for worsted, and it was sent to him. I only know or that one +instance. + +3187. Was it sent by a proprietor?-I am not sure. It was Mr. Pole +of Greenbank who sent it. I rather think his father is proprietor of +Greenbank. Mr. Pole is now at Mossbank. + +3188. What is the cost per pound of that worsted which sells at 3d. +per cut?-Ordinary good 3d. worsted should be about 20s. a +pound. + +3189. Therefore it is not so dear as the English worsted?-It is +much dearer. + +3190. But there is some of the English worsted high as 32s. a +pound?-Yes; but we have bought Shetland wool at 96s. + +3191. Is that the finest quality of Shetland worsted?-Yes + +3192. How much is that per cut?-I think about 7d. We have paid +7d. a cut for it, and on weighing it out I have found there were 12 +cuts to the ounce. A cut is 100 threads, and a reel is about a yard +long, or scarcely so much. + +3193. There will be a greater number of cuts in a pound of fine +worsted than in a pound of coarse worsted?-Yes. + +3194. So that the proportion between the price per [Page 71] cut +and the price per pound will differ very much?-Yes + +3195. In your trade is there any quantity of goods sold for cash?- +Yes. + +3196. Are these marked and sold at the same price as those which +you give in return for hosiery?-Yes; they are marked at the same +price, and generally sold at the same price. On rare occasions +there is a slight discount given for ready cash. + +3197. How much is that discount?-I should say about 1s. per £1. + +3198. Why is that not allowed when the settlement with +hosiery?-Because we consider that in our transactions throughout +the year we do not realize for our hosiery goods the full price +which we pay. + +3199. Have you two shops?-Yes. + +3200. In one of these is hosiery kept and bought?-In one of them +hosiery is kept; it is only in bought that shop now on very rare +occasions. When Mr. Linklater or I happen to be there, we may +buy something, and send the customer to the other shop to settle +for it. + +3201. Then the buying of hosiery is only conducted in the drapery +shop?-The settlement for hosiery is only conducted in the hosiery +shop. + +3202. As a rule, a person selling a shawl or veil would go to the +drapery shop?-Yes; and if Mr. Linklater or I was not there, she +would go to the other shop to see if we were there. + +3203. How do you settle with them if the purchase is made in the +hosiery shop?-Generally one of us goes across with them, and on +other occasions we give a line to the other shop such as this: '12s. +R. L.,'-just the sum and the initials, and they go to the other +shop, where it is settled at once. + +3204. That is in cases of purchase, and has nothing to do with your +knitters?-Nothing; unless in the case of the dresser, who has to +bring all the dressed goods to the other shop. She sometimes gets +a similar line; at other times she just tells the amount. Of course +we put every confidence in her; and whether she has a line or not, +she is settled with all the same. + +3205. Do you exchange a large quantity of tea for hosiery and +knitted work?-Not a large quantity; only a small quantity. + +3206. Was it larger formerly than it is now?-I don't think it. + +3207. The principal dealing is in goods?-Yes; in goods. Of +course when people ask for tea, they are never refused it; but we +don't sell much. + +3208. Do you give them tea for goods at the ordinary market price +that it is got at in the other grocery shops in town?-I have no idea +what their tea costs them at other places. One merchant does not +know what another merchant's goods are sold for. + +3209. At what prices do you sell your teas?-Generally at 9d. and +10d. per quarter. + +3210. Have you only two qualities?-Yes. + +3211. Is it always sold in quarter pounds?-No; it is sometimes +sold in half ounces. + +3212. It is just put up as the people ask for it?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled. + +3213. Have you anything further to add to the evidence you +previously gave?-I produce a list of names of parties who have +sold goods to me, and they can be examined as to the prices they +have got for their goods, that the range of prices may be +ascertained. [Produces list.] + +3214. I believe you also wish to explain something about the +number of your knitters?-Yes; I made a mistake about that. I +find from the index in our workers' book that the number is +upwards of 300. I believe, however, that a great number of the +knitters who appear in our books will also appear in the books of +other merchants. They take work from two or perhaps three, at the +same time; and consequently the aggregate number of knitters is +not represented by the number that is found collectively in the +books of the employers. + +3215. You wish also to speak about Catherine Borthwick's +evidence. She said she had never got any money from you; that +she had asked you about two years ago for 1s,, when there was +about 5s. 6d. due to her; that you refused it; and that she had never +asked you for any since?-I have no evidence either to corroborate +or to disprove that statement. I have not the least recollection of +it; but I don't believe that it happened + +3216. Is there anything in your books to contradict it?-Nothing. + +3217. Then there is nothing for it but her statement, and your +statement on the other side?-Quite so. + +3218. In a large business like yours there might be a cash +transaction at a time, apart from your books, which was settled for +there and then?-Yes, it might have been; but it is a very unlikely +thing that she asked me for 1s. in cash and I refused it unless I had +very good grounds for doing so. She was generally behind in my +books. + +3219. But what she deponed to might have happened when she +was behind?-Yes; I think it was very seldom, until I settled up +with her, that she was not behind. + +3220. In the work-book, I notice that dressing is occasionally +charged against you on the credit side?-That is in the case where +the knitter also dresses, and she is paid for that as well as for the +knitting. We sometimes included both in the same payment, but +not very often. Now we always separate them. + +3221. When you were examined previously with regard to the cost +of the wool in a shawl made of English wool, were you speaking +of the price which you paid for the wool, or of the price at which +you would retail it?-With regard to English or south-country +wool, I may just repeat what I said before; that we really do very +little in it, especially for fine shawls. I never charged 30s., or +anything like it, for a shawl made of Pyrenees wool, because I did +not consider that it was real Shetland goods. + +3222. Then you deal in the real Shetland goods?-Yes, mostly. +Occasionally, if I have to send a shawl of another kind to the +south, I state that it is not handspun wool-that it is not the real +Shetland wool. + +3223. So that the great majority of your goods consists of Shetland +wool; and in estimating the cost of production of a shawl, you +estimated it at the price you paid for the wool?-Just so. + +3224. And not at the retail price to a customer?-No; it was the +cash price meant. There is one exception-that is, in the mohair +falls-similar to those Mr. Anderson has been referring to, where, +as rule, we pay a higher rate for knitting than that mentioned. +These mohair falls are the only thing we deal in that is not +Shetland. + +3225. That is, the grey and black falls?-Yes. We never buy black +wool; we always dye the falls after they are knitted. + +3226. Are falls and veils the same thing?-We don't buy the +mohair black; we think we get a more uniform shade of colour +when we buy them in the piece. + +3227. I understand you have two shops?-Yes. + +3228. One of them is a shop where you only deal in drapery +goods?-Yes; where we only deal for cash. + +3229. There are no hosiery dealings carried on there?-No. + +3230. Are the same prices charged for the drapery goods in the two +shops?-There is a very small shade of difference on some things. +Some things are exactly the same in both; on others there is a +small difference. I should say that there is such a difference on +calicoes. There are several things we sell in that shop, such as +fancy goods and sewed articles, which are not kept in our hosiery +shop at all; but winceys and stuff goods, such as camlets and +satteens, and other things for dresses, are charged alike in both +shops, so far as I remember. + +[Page 72] + +3231. Is there any difference made in the price of the tea?-We +don't sell tea in the drapery shop. While on this subject I would +call attention to one thing that was stated in Mr. Walker's +evidence. He said that the merchants gave mostly flowers and +ribands, and things of that description in exchange for the hosiery; +while the fact is that flowers and ribands are just the kind of goods +which I would avoid giving, if I could, because we do not realize a +profit on them. In our cash shop we never have flowers or ribands, +unless when we are obliged to have them for the accommodation +of our customers; and we would rather want them. I was four +years in the trade, so far as I recollect, before I had any flowers or +ribands in stock at all, because I knew from former experience +they were a thing which did not pay. + +3232. What is the reason why these things do not pay?-They may +pay some people in the south, who charge a higher rate for them; +but we do not charge so high for them as in the south. + +3233. How are you obliged to have them now?-Because the +people will have them, and they have got into the habit of buying +them at the ordinary rates. An ordinary retail profit put on any of +these things won't pay us, because so many of the flowers are lost, +crushed, or destroyed; and sometimes I have seen us have to throw +a box of them from the pier. Another thing is that ribands go out +of fashion. There are boxes of ribands standing in my shop, which +I would sell for one-fourth of the cash I paid for them. + +3234. Do you not keep these, goods because you find it necessary +to have them in order to induce people to come to your shop with +their hosiery goods?-By no means. They come without any +inducement of that kind. + +3235. But they want them when they are selling their hosiery?- +We could do without them, for that part of it. There are many +customers who come for them, as well as hosiery customers. +When we want a particular article of hosiery, and have an order for +it, we can arrange, and often do arrange, to buy it for cash; and the +people may go and buy their goods where they like. That is +frequently done when we have a standing order for an article; so +that we do not keep these things as baits for the public at all. + +3236. You buy a good deal of wool from the north isles?-Yes. + +3237. I think you said you did not send any of it south?-No; I +don't require to send it south. + +3238. Are you aware of Shetland wool being bought and sent south +in considerable quantities?-I was told by a south-country dealer +that he had bought a considerable quantity of wool from Shetland; +but that is all. I know about it. I have no personal knowledge of +the thing being done. + +3239. You don't understand that it is bought up by the proprietors +or factors or middle-men?-I never heard anything about that, +except from Mr. Walker's evidence; and it is a dream. + +3240. You don't buy it yourself for any purpose of that kind?-No; +there are none of the merchants who do that. There is one thing in +my previous evidence which I wish to correct: I thought of it after I +left here. In calculating the value of a 30s. shawl, I put down 14s. +as the value of the knitting; but in that case I did not make the +deduction I should have made for the percentage of the goods paid +for it, which would increase the real profit to the dealer. As, +however, in a great many instances, when we require a fine shawl +of that kind, a good deal of it is paid in cash, I think that, taking it +as a general thing, not more than 1s., 6d. would fall to be deducted +for that from the figure I gave. In some cases the price is paid +wholly in cash, especially for things of that kind. That sum of 1s. +6d. would therefore fall to be added to the profit if the article was +paid in goods; but if paid in cash, then my statement was quite +correct. + +3241. Did you hear the evidence which has been given by Mr. +Anderson with regard to the cost of making shawls and veils?-I +did. + +3242. It was mostly veils he spoke to, and the selling price of +them: do you think his calculations that on subject were generally +near the truth?-I believe they were perfectly correct, so far as my +own experience goes, but I may say that my experience in that +matter has been somewhat different from his, inasmuch, as for that +class of wool, and knitting. I often pay a higher rate to good +knitters. There is this; however, to be said in my case, that I do not +have so many job lots, which compensates to a great extent for the +difference; and another thing is that I do not charge such a high +price for them as he stated, when sending them south. If I am +selling to a private individual, I may but it is very seldom that I sell +to private individuals. + +3243. That may be accounted for in this way: that you sell more to +wholesale customers, while I suppose Mr. Linklater's business in +Edinburgh is really a retail business?-Yes; he has a very +extensive establishment in Edinburgh. + +3244. His own establishment there is a retail one; so that the prices +Mr. Anderson was speaking of were probably retail prices?-I +suppose so. I think if the one was balanced with the other, there +would be found to be very little difference between Mr. Linklater's +experience in the trade and my own. I wish it to be distinctly +understood, that when I said we got no profit, on the goods except +what we realized on the first purchase, I meant that we do not +realize indeed we often don't realize so much-as the price we +paid for them in goods. In particular cases, we may charge a shade +over what the thing has actually cost us; but there are a great many +articles for which we must charge less, and that much more than +balances the other. If our customers in the south were private +individuals or consumers, we could very easily pay the same rate +in cash that we now pay in goods, but as we have to sell to retail +dealers in a wholesale way, we cannot afford to do that, unless we +were to rob the retail dealer of his profit altogether. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, examined. + +3245. You are the daughter of Mr. Sinclair, who has just been +examined, and one of the assistants in shop?-Yes. + +3246. Are you sometimes concerned in the purchase of hosiery +goods?-No; I never purchase hosiery. + +3247. You only sell in the shop?-Yes. + +3248. Is it the case that the lines which are given out in your +father's shop are generally brought back by the same parties to +whom they are issued? Do you know who the lines are given +to?-No; we keep no note of their names. + +3249. But do you happen to know them?-I know several cases in +which the lines have been brought back by the same parties to +whom they were given out; and there have been other cases where +I know that they have been given by that party to another party, +just the same as sending them an errand. + +3250. Do you know of any cases in which they have been brought +back by people with whom they have been exchanged for money +or for goods which could not be got in your father's shop?-No; +they would never mention such a thing to us. + +3251. And no such case has come within your knowledge?-I have +heard vague reports of such things being done but nothing that I +could, state positively. I know that if they had come to the shop +and asked money for their lines, they would have got 10d., in the +shilling for them from my father. + +3252. Have you ever been asked for that?-Very seldom. There +was one girl who came in a few nights ago and offered me a veil. +My father happened to be in the back shop, and I went to him with +it, and he said he would give her 1s. 4d. for the veil. I came back +to the girl, and she said, 'Would I give her 1s. 4d. in money?' I +said, 'Certainly not,' because the veil season was over; and also I +did think that money [Page 73] and goods were the same thing. I +said I would give here 1s. 1d. in money, and she asked if I would +give her 1s. 2d. I said, 'No;' I would only give her 1s. 1d. and she +took that and went away. + +3253. Is that a usual sort of transaction?-No. I never heard them +asking for money before; at least not asking for it in that way. I +have heard them wanting to get the same price in money that they +got in goods. + +3254. Is that a common thing for them to ask?-Well, it is. + +3255. Do you know anything about the work-book?-Yes. + +3256. Do you sometimes settle the accounts in that book with the +knitters?-Occasionally, when the clerk is out. + +3257. Are the items in the account always read over to the +knitter?-Yes. + +3258. Is there any receipt or acknowledgment given when an +account is settled?-Occasionally they take a line for the amount +if the balance is in their favour, because sometimes the shop is so +crowded that we don't have time to turn up the account. + +3259. In that case the account is marked as settled in full?-Yes. + +3260. In other cases the balance is carried to the next account +simply, without any line?-Yes. + +3261. Is the work-book kept in the shop, or in the office at the +back?-We used to keep it in the shop, but they came and +bothered us at the time we were writing, and we thought it better +to keep it in the office. But we take the book into the front shop, +and read the items over to them when we settle. + +3262. If a woman comes with work and gets it entered in the +work-book, and then wants a certain quantity of goods, do you +communicate with the clerk at the back before giving out the +goods, in order to see the state of her account?-Yes. + +3263. Who enters the goods in the book?-The clerk, when he is +present; or if he is not present, then any of us who retail the goods +may enter them. + +3264. Do you go into the back shop for the purpose of doing +that?-I take down a note of the goods they get on a slip of paper. + +3265. And the contents of that slip are entered into the book?- +Yes, by the clerk. + +3266. Then there may be a great number of these slips to enter in +the course of the day?-They are handed to the clerk at once. If +he is busy about anything else, any of us may take the book and +mark the goods in ourselves. + +3267. Are these slips preserved?-No. + +3268. They are just destroyed when entered?-Yes. I have +occasionally given them to the people themselves, if it was a case +where they were getting goods for another person. If they had +been sent an errand by any one, I have handed them their slip, in +order to show the person who sent them what they had got. + +3269. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to say that in +a very short time the Shetland wool will be entirely destroyed, +because the breed of sheep is wearing out. The Cheviot wool is +taking its place. + +3270. You mean that the introduction of Cheviot sheep into +Shetland is entirely destroying the breed of native sheep?-Yes. + +3271. Do you do a good deal in purchasing wool from the Shetland +people?-No; I don't purchase but I know the quality of it. + +3272. Do you find from the qualities that pass through your hands, +that the Shetland wool is not so good as it used to be?-Yes; it is +deteriorating very much. + +3273. You find it is becoming more like what you buy from the +south?-Yes; there is a great difference upon it. There is more +elasticity in the Shetland wool than in the Pyrenees wool. + +3274. Do you buy the wool yourself?-No; it is spun and knitted +by people. + +3275. Do they bring it to you, or have you people who gather it in +for you?-They bring it to us to the shop: and I have heard the +people very often making complaints that they could not get wool +at all from any source. + +3276. How do you buy wool?-We do not buy wool at all. + +3277. Do you buy Shetland worsted?-Yes. + +3278. Do the spinners bring it to your shop and sell it?-Very +seldom. We buy it mostly from merchants in the country-in Unst +and Fetlar. When a spinner comes in with worsted, she generally +wants ready money for it. + +3279. When a woman comes with it or sends it, how is she +paid?-She gets anything she asks for-either goods at wholesale +prices, or the cash. + +3280. When you buy worsted and give goods for it, you give them +at the wholesale prices it is the same as cash?-Yes. + +3281. Are there many merchants who deal in that kind of way?-I +suppose most of them do so in the places where it is made. It is +mostly in the north isles. Occasionally, I think, they do a little in +Dunrossness. + +3282. Is it bought in by a shopkeeper at Dunrossness?-I don't +know how it is done. I simply know that there are some goods +made there. + +3283. But where do you get your worsted from?-We don't get +worsted from any merchant in Dunrossness. I was merely stating +where the worsted was spun. + +3284. Do you get Shetland worsted from merchants in the north of +the mainland as well as in the north isles?-Yes. + +3285. Do you get any from Mossbank or Lunna?-No. + +3286. Do you get any from Northmavine?-I think we get a little +worsted from a merchant there. The books will show where it is +got. + +3287. Do you know about the prices paid for goods bought in the +shop? I don't mean goods knitted you, but goods bought?-Yes. + +3288. What do you generally pay for a dozen of men's hose?-I +think about 20s.-sometimes more, but very seldom less. That is a +thing very seldom sold now, except knickerbocker stockings. + +3289. I see in an account five white lace shawls sold each. What +would be the price of these if bought over the counter?-8s. in +goods. + +3290. If paid in cash, what would the price be?-About is 9d., I +should say. + +3291. Do you buy many of them for cash?-We sometimes buy +the larger things for cash. I have been in the shop when large +shawls were paid for in that way. + +3292. In the same account I see twelve hap-shawls at 11s. 6d.: +what would these be bought for across the counter?-It is very +likely that 11s. 6d. would be paid for them in goods. + +3293. In this account I see one hap-shawl entered at 14s., and +then at 13s.: what does that mean?-It means that 14s., was paid +for it, and it was sold for 13s. Perhaps it may have been slightly +ill-coloured. + +3294. In the wholesale trade list which has been given in, I see +white, brown, and grey shawls, natural colours, charged 8s. 6d. to +18s.: do you know, from what you see in the shop, the prices at +which these are generally bought over the counter?-They are just +bought at the same prices at which they are invoiced, and which +are put down there. + +3295. When a shawl is brought to the shop and paid for in goods, +is it ticketed for the south market?-Yes; the fine shawls are +ticketed. + +3296. Wrap or winter shawls, 8s. 6d.: would these be ticketed?- +No. + +3297. Why?-Because my father knows the prices so well; they +are sold by measure. + +3298. The prices at which they are charged do not depend so much +on fancy?-No. + +3299. Then the prices of these shawls are fixed afterwards?-Yes. + +3300. How do you know that the prices which are charged for +these shawls are the same as have been paid for them over the +counter?-Because I have seen haps sold at the counter for 8s. 6d.; +and afterwards, [Page 74] when they were ready for the market, +they were charged at the same, or nearly the same, price. + +3301. Don't you sometimes see them charged at a higher price?-I +cannot say exactly, because I do not always notice what the prices +are; but I know that I have sometimes seen the same prices +charged. I have noticed that particularly in haps. + +3302. There are grey and brown long shawls, 20s. to 24s. are these +also haps?-Yes. + +3303. Are they generally bought at from 20s. to 24s.?-Yes. + +3304. And sold at the same prices?-Yes, I have noticed that. + +3305. You have nothing to do with the pricing of them yourself?- +Nothing at all. I merely see the tickets, and recognise the article. +Perhaps there was something particular about it which led me to +recognise it. + +3306. How often has that happened?-I could not say. + +3307. Has it happened a dozen times?-It has surely happened +more than a dozen times. That is a very small number. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, examined. + +3308. Are you a shopman to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. + +3309. You are not the bookkeeper?-No. + +3310. Do you know the prices at which hosiery goods are bought +across the counter?-Yes. + +3311. Do you also know the prices at which these same goods are +invoiced to the southern market?-Yes. + +3312. Is the price at which they are bought and the price at which +they are sold the same, or different, on the ordinary run of +goods?-They are charged to the wholesale or the retail dealer in +the south at the same price as we pay for them in goods at the +counter. + +3313. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes. + +3314. The goods, I understand, are not all ticketed when +bought?-Fine shawls are generally ticketed, but haps and other +goods are judged of afterwards, when being looked out in order to +be sent to the market in the south. + +3315. In the case of fine shawls, is it within your own knowledge +that the ticket put upon them at the time of the purchase bears +generally the same price as has been paid for them in goods?- +Yes. Mr Sinclair puts up these goods himself for the market, and +the ticket is put on them at the time of the purchase, in order to +bring to his remembrance, when he is putting them up for the +market, the price he paid for them at the counter. + +3316. In all these cases there is only one valuation of the shawl, +and it is made to the person who brings it to you for sale?-Yes. + +3317. The ticket is put on them, and the invoice price is the same +as the price on the ticket?-Yes, the same. + +3318. Do you make no allowance, in that case, for the loss upon +the dressing or the dyeing of the shawl?-When a girl comes with +an article that is ill-coloured, she may ask a certain price for it; +but we state that we cannot give her that price, owing to it being +ill-coloured, and that it requires to be dyed. In that case we deduct +the price of the dyeing from the price which is paid to her. + +3319. Is that deduction made before the price is put on the +ticket?-We don't ticket it then. It has to be sent south to the +dyer, and to come back and to be dressed here. + +3320. In that case you must make an estimate, because you cannot +identify the shawl afterwards?-No; we just leave it to our own +judgment afterwards. + +3321. Then it appears that you don't invoice the goods at exactly +the same price that is paid in every case?-We don't invoice them +at the same price if we are selling them to private individuals; but +when we sell them to a retail dealer, we invoice them at the same +price. + +3322. But you have said that very often you require to send them +to the dyer, in which case they are not ticketed at the time you +purchase them?-No; but the retail dealer must pay for the dyeing. + +3323. But the goods are not always ticketed at the time they are +bought?-No; not always. I did not say they were. + +3324. Are they ticketed, as a rule, when they are bought?-The +finest of the lace goods or shawls are ticketed. + +3325. And veils?-No, not veils; but the fine lace shawls are +generally ticketed. + +3326. How is the invoice price of the veils fixed, if they are not +ticketed when they are bought?-We can easily judge of the +quality of a veil by looking at it, and we can tell what we paid for +it. Of course, in fixing the price, we always refer to what we paid +for it, and we know that at a glance by the quality of the work and +the worsted. + +3327. You cannot tell what you paid for a particular lot of veils, +because you cannot identify them?-No. + +3328. But you know by the quality what they likely to have cost +you?-Yes. + +3329. Is the price at which veils are sold generally the same as that +at which they are bought?-Yes. Veils which have been bought +across the counter are charged at the same price that we consider +we paid for them. + +3330. Are many of the shawls dyed?-A good many. Some are +dyed on account of being ill-coloured. Perhaps we don't discover, +at the time when they are taken in over the counter, that they are +ill-coloured; we only find that out afterwards, and then we have to +dye them. Sometimes we dye shawls, not on account of them +being ill-coloured, but because we require them of a particular +colour. + +3331. Is that done with fine shawls?-Both with fine and coarse. + +3332. But not with haps?-Sometimes with haps too. We dye +haps scarlet and black. + +3333. Therefore there is a considerable quantity of the shawl +goods which it is not possible to ticket at the time when they are +bought, because they have afterwards to be dyed-Yes, a +considerable quantity. + +3334. And, in that case, the price is fixed afterwards, according to +your own notions of the quality?-Yes. + +3335. Who fixes the invoice price of shawls when they are sent out +finally to the market?-Mr. Sinclair himself. He takes that +department. + +3336. Do you know whether, in doing so, he takes into account the +market price in the south?-Although he makes up the articles, +they pass through my hands in packing, and I see the tickets. They +generally have a ticket on them, in order to guide the clerk in +checking them and entering them into the book. + +3337. But you don't know the principle on which Mr. Sinclair +values these shawls when they are invoiced?-He just judges of +them in the same manner as he did at first when taking them in +over the counter. + +3338. What proportion of the shawls may be revalued in that +way?-Will it be one-third or one-half of them?-They are all +re-valued in that way, unless those which are ticketed. + +3339. But what proportion of them are not ticketed at first?-I +could not say. + +3340. Is it not the case that very few of them are ticketed at +first?-There are only the finest lace shawls that are ticketed at +first. + +3341. Therefore the bulk of the shawls are not ticketed then, but +valued afterwards?-Yes; they are valued in the same manner at +that time as they were when taken in at the counter. + +3342. Are you in a position to state whether or not that valuation +which is made when they are sent out exceeds the valuation which +is put upon them when they are purchased for the market?-I have +reason to believe from Mr. Sinclair's long experience in the trade, +that he will know to a fraction what he paid for the [Page 75] +shawls; and I can swear that they are not charged by him at a +higher price than the price which was paid for them in goods at +the counter. Of course deductions are made afterwards by the +wholesale dealer, if he thinks the article is inferior. + +3343. Do you issue the lines which are given out in the shop?-I +very often issue lines. I perhaps issue more of them than any one +else. + +3344. Do you also serve customers who have lines?-Yes. + +3345. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the lines are +generally brought back by the parties to whom they were originally +given out?-They are generally brought back by the owner of the +hosiery. + +3346. Is it the party herself to whom the line has been given that +usually brings it back?-Very often but sometimes they may send +a line in by another party as a messenger. + +3347. How do you know that?-Sometimes a line may be brought +back an hour after it has been given out, by a different party, and +they will perhaps make remark in order to let me know that they +have been sent by the party to whom the line belonged. + +3348. Are you aware that the lines are exchanged or sold by the +parties to whom they were first issued?-I have heard something +to that effect this very morning. + +3349. But you have not known of that in your own experience?- +No. It has not come under my notice, unless from report. + +3350. Does the party bringing one of these lines for goods ever tell +you that she had purchased it?-No. I don't remember an instance +of that kind. + +3351. You don't remember any particular case in which there had +been a sale of the line for cash, or for other goods which you don't +supply?-I say there was an instance this morning which came +under my notice, in which a line had been exchanged, and in +which the party had got cash for the line. + +3352. From whom had the cash been got?-I could give the name +of the party to whom the line belonged, but not of the other party. + +3353. Was that an instance of a line being brought back by a +person to whom it had not been originally issued?-No; it was +merely a party in the shop who said that some time ago-she did +not state the time-she had a line which she had given to another +person, and had got cash for it. But at the same time she said that +she did not ask cash from Mr. Sinclair, or she might have got it. +She felt diffident in asking for cash, because she had brought her +hosiery to the shop on the understanding that she was to take +goods for it. The receipt she got had not been a cash transaction. + +3354. Is that the only time, in your experience in the shop, that you +have heard of these lines being exchanged for cash, or for other +goods than those which Mr. Sinclair sells?-It is the only one I can +point to in particular. + +3355. But do you swear that you don't know that lines have been +so exchanged?-No, I would not swear that. I said I have heard a +vague report that on several occasions they have been exchanged, +but I could not point to any other case than the one I have +mentioned. + +3356. Is cash ever given in your shop upon lines?-Yes, often. It +is given on lines, even when the hosiery article has been taken in +over the counter with understanding that the party was to take all +goods for it. + +3357. The lines bear that their value is to be given in goods but +notwithstanding that you know that cash had been given on +them?-Yes. + +3358. How often?-I could not say how often, but I can point to +one woman in particular who has got cash in that way. She stated +that she was in need of it, and she got it even when the hosiery +article was taken with the understanding that only goods were to +be given for it. + +3359. In that case, was any discount taken for cash?-No. + +3360. Was the whole amount given in cash?-Yes, all cash. She +said she required it to buy meal with. + +3361. What was the amount of that line?-It was the case with that +woman on several lines, not on one line in particular. + +3362. Who was the woman?-I should prefer to give her name in +private. + +3363. What proportion of her line was given in cash?-I could not +say what proportion, but she got the proportion she asked for. Of +course, when giving money in that way, we considered it was a +deduction from the profit on our goods. + +3364. Then it was given as a sort of charity?-It might be +considered as a sort of favour, because it was a deduction from our +profit. + +3365. Do you say that it was really a deduction from the profit?- +Yes. + +3366. But you said before, and I have been informed by other +parties, that there is no profit at all upon the hosiery goods; so that +if you pay the lines in cash, you take away all the profit you make +upon a purchase of hosiery?-Yes; that is only if we charge the +wholesale dealer the same price. + +3367. But you say that, practically, the wholesale dealer is charged +the same price?-Yes. Even should we pay the same price in cash +as we get from the wholesale dealer, if we were sure that this party +would come back to the shop with the money which we gave her +and take our goods, it would not be a loss; but if she did not come +back, then there would be a loss. + +3368. In other words, the effect of the lines and of paying in goods +is, that these sellers of hosiery are bound to take their goods at +your shop, instead of another; and therein lies your profit?-Of +course. We just have our profit on the goods. We have two sales +for one profit. + +3369. But you say that although you suspected, and had heard from +rumour, that these lines were commonly exchanged for money or +for other goods than you dealt in, you have known of no particular +case except the one you have mentioned?-No. + +3370. Have you known of cases where goods which had been +delivered in return for hosiery had been exchanged by the women +for other goods or for cash?-I could not point out any case. + +3371. Did you ever hear of any case?-I could not point out any +one. + +3372. But did you ever hear of any such case?-I have heard that +rumour, the same as I heard of the other thing. + +3373. Have the women told you that themselves?-Yes; just +speaking of it among the crowd in the shop. + +3374. You don't remember the names of these women?-I do not. + +3375. Have you any doubt at all that that is done?-No; I am led to +believe that it is done. + +3376. How are you led to believe that?-Because I have heard the +vague report so often-not once, but several times. + +3377. Does that report lead you to believe that it is done to any +great extent?-I could not say to what extent. + +3378. How does report speak of it?-Just that it was not +uncommon. The report did not say that it was very common, but +only that it was common. + +3379. Do you swear that you cannot remember the names of any +women who have done it?-I do. + +3380. Or who have spoken to you about it?-None, except the one +who has said it to-day + +3381. Or that you have heard speak of it?-No. + +3382. In the journal, or work-book, I see that there is sometimes a +line entered. I do not mean merely that the balance is struck, but +sometimes there are entries, 'To lines.' Can you explain that?- +Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to pay +another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark a line +for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line to give +to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the amount in +goods. + +3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of +paying their debt to another?-Yes. + +3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. [Page 76] It has +happened occasionally. I have entered such lines myself in the +work-book; and sometimes, although not very often, when looking +over their account, instead of taking the balance that may be in +their favour, they will take a line for it. I may say, however, that +where hosiery has been taken from a person on the understanding +that they were to take all goods for it, I have never known a case +where cash was refused to them when they said they were in need +of it. + +3385. That just amounts to this: that Mr. Sinclair, in a case of that +kind, throws away the whole of his profit?-Yes; it shows a +charitable spirit in Mr. Sinclair. + +3386. In the case of Mary Ann Sinclair, there was an entry in the +journal of cash paid to William Smith for meal: can you explain +how that was done?-I heard Mr. Sinclair's examination about +that. His attention was directed to an entry of 'Cash, for meal,' he +was asked why that was not entered merely cash. I cannot say +whether the entry was in my writing or not, but I remember that +girl coming into the shop and asking for cash, and she made a +remark that it was for meal. I think that the entry is in my hand, +and that I just put it down as she said it. + +3387. The giving of that cash was a deviation from your usual +practice?-Yes, these parties depend chiefly upon the knitting, and +they get a larger supply of cash than the general workers. There +are not many cases, I don't think we have a similar case in the +town, where the parties depend entirely on their knitting. Our +knitters belong chiefly to the country, and the knitting is with them +an extra piece of work. + +3388. In the same witness's account there was another entry of +'Cash, for meal:' do you explain that in the same way?-Yes; but +of course they were at liberty to go to any shop for it they liked. + +3389. Does the entry, 'To William Smith, for meal,' mean that you +paid the money directly to Smith?-Sometimes we did. His +account would show that the amount which he received from us +was just the same as had been marked to the women. In his +account he would state that he had given out so much meal to +them. + +3390. Has Mr. Smith an account with R. Sinclair & Co.?- +Sometimes there was an account between them at that time. + +3391. Was that account for supplies to work-people?-Sometimes +it would be for such supplies along with Mr. Sinclair's personal +account. + +3392. Does Mr. Smith make frequent supplies to Mr. Sinclair's +work-people?-No; it has not been done very frequently. + +3393. To what class of work-people are these supplies made?- +Chiefly to the party who has been already examined, Mary Ann +Sinclair, and that has not been done of late. These girls have not +been so dependent on their knitting lately, because they have got +help from another quarter. + +3394. Then this payment for meal, and that payment to W. Smith +for meal, were really so much taken out of Mr. Sinclair's profit?- +I think so, because their knitting was estimated at the goods price, +not at the cash price. + +3395. I see that in the same account there are other two entries of +purchases of meal?-Yes, that was merely put down because the +parties said they wanted meal, and for a considerable time they +had just a weekly allowance. + +3396. The entries of these two purchases of meal are really +equivalent to entries of cash?-Yes; sometimes when it is said, +'Cash, for meal,' they got the cash into their own hands. + +3397. And sometimes it was entered in the account with Mr. +Smith?-Yes. + +3398. Was that account of Mr. Smith's a personal account of Mr. +Sinclair's?-I suppose it was just made out as an account of R. +Sinclair & Co. + +3399. What was the nature of the dealings with Smith? Have you +seen his account?-I cannot remember. I saw the account when it +was handed in, but I cannot say what was in it. + +3400. You don't know about it personally?-No. + +3401. Is there anything you wish to state on the subject of this +inquiry?-I wish to state that, supposing a new system of cash +payments is adopted, there will be a change, which I don't think +will be altogether in favour of the worker. No doubt it would be to +some extent. + +3402. What difference would there be?-I shall suppose that a +woman comes in with a shawl, say to-day, while the present +system exists, and gets 20s. in goods. She wants grey cotton, and +she will get forty yards of it for her 20s. To-morrow she comes in, +and the system is changed, and she must be paid in cash. Well, +she gets the cash, and she requires the same kind of goods, but she +thinks there is no need for going out of the shop, as the goods here +are as cheap as anywhere else. Then she will get for her cash the +usual discount of 5 per cent. That would be 16s. 91/2d., and she +would only have then about thirty-three yards of cotton instead of +forty yards. + +3403. But in the case you have supposed, would not the cotton be +sold cheaper, because the merchant would not require to put all his +profit on the cotton, as you say he does now, but he would also put +a profit on the hosiery; and therefore he could afford to sell the +cotton at a smaller profit?-The merchant would not have two +profits on his hosiery. + +3404. If he was buying for cash, he would?-No, it would merely +be embarking his capital a second time. + +3405. If he were buying the shawl for 16s. in cash, would he not +sell it for 20s., as he does just now?-Yes; he would embark that +cash again. + +3406. That allows a profit of 4s. upon the hosiery, perhaps under +deductions for certain contingencies; but it certainly allows a +profit which on your own statement, he does not have now. +According to your own statement, there is no profit on the hosiery +now, because it is bought for the same price in goods as it is sold +for; but if he were paying 16s. in cash for it, there would then be a +profit upon the hosiery of 3s. or 4s. Now, would not the fact that a +profit is taken upon the hosiery enable him to sell his cotton goods +with a somewhat less margin of profit than he does just now?-It +might. + +3407. Besides, the case which you have put just now implies that +the woman wants something which Mr. Sinclair has in his shop?- +Yes. + +3408. It does not allow at all for a case in which she wants +something different and in order to get which she might perhaps +have to part with the goods at a loss?-Viewing it in the light I +have stated would perhaps be a disadvantage to the knitter; but +there would certainly be an advantage to her, as she would have +cash with which to go and buy groceries or other things wherever +she wanted, + +3409. Then that would be an advantage?-It would be an +advantage; but another disadvantage to her might be, that the +merchant would not take her goods at all unless he actually wanted +them and he had orders for them, and unless they were of good +quality. There would thus be only one advantage against two +disadvantages. + +3410. But if one merchant did not take her goods, another would, +if they were worth buying at all?-Perhaps he might; but I was +only speaking about how the thing might act if such a system were +introduced. There might be a second advantage, in this way: that +more encouragement might be given to the trade in the south, as +the cash system might be a means of producing better articles. +The knitters might be induced to bestow more pains on the +manufacture of their goods and then there would not be periods +when the market was in a dead, dull kind of state, as it sometimes +is now. + +3411. Is it ever in a dead, dull kind of state?-Yes, at certain +seasons it is. + +3412. Is there ever a time when you refuse to take Shetland +goods?-Yes; at this very season we cannot buy veils at all, +because we have no market for them. The market is blocked up +entirely. But if the manufacture was improved, and the goods +were somewhat [Page 77] better than they are now, there might be +a regular flow of goods into the market. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled. + +3413. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to +Mr. Bruce's evidence as to the account with Smith, I think he is +mistaken in saying that there is any entry of that meal in any of +Smith's accounts. I remember only one case where Miss Sinclair +got her meal from Smith, and I went myself, either that day or the +following day, to him with the money. That is the only case I +know of; and I am almost sure there is no such thing as meal +supplied to her entered in any contra account of Mr. Smith, +because we paid the meal in cash at once. I know of no other +person being supplied by Mr. Smith except her. Another thing is +with regard to the number of shawls that are dyed. Mr. Bruce does +not seem to recollect that the number of shawls dyed bears a very +small proportion to the number of shawls we sell. It is only a +fraction of them that are dyed. I don't think there is one out of +eighty which requires to be dyed for selling south. With regard to +the valuation of the shawls, the fact is, that although sometimes it +happens that we detect a fault in the goods when we are buying +them, and make a deduction for that from the price, yet in the +majority of cases the faults are only detected after the goods are +bought, and no deduction for that can be made from the price +which we pay to the knitters. In all such cases we have to dye +them for nothing. + +3414. Do you mean that the fault is detected after the shawls are +bought from you?-Not after they are bought from us, but after we +have bought them; and consequently we have to dye them. Then +when they are dyed, they very often, indeed generally, do not bring +more than they would have brought if they had been white; but +that is such a trifling thing, that it is not worth speaking about. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANN EUNSON, examined. + +3415. You live in Lerwick?-Yes. + +3416. You have come forward voluntarily to make a statement?- +Yes. + +3417. Nobody has sent you here?-No. + +3418. Have you knitted for a long time to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, for +a long time; I don't remember how long. + +3419. What have you made?-Little hap-shawls. + +3420. How have you been paid for them?-I have been well paid +for them, according to what I sought. + +3421. Did you get money or goods?-When I sought money I got +it; but when I required anything which he had, I thought it was my +duty to take it from him, and not from another. He always gave +me a little money when I asked it. + +3422. How much would you get at a time?-I might not ask above +6d. at a time, but I would get it. + +3423. How much would you make in a week by knitting?-It was +just as I had time to sit at it. + +3424. Did you do a good deal at it?-Not a great deal I made a +good many haps for myself when I could. I am a widow. I had +seven children, who are all dead, and I have supported myself +entirely by my work. + +3425. Have you supported yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes. I +had no other work, except that of going for peats, or anything else +I had to do. + +3426. Were these your own peats?-Yes. + +3427. Therefore you had no other means except by knitting?-No; +except that for some time back I have had 1s. a week from the +parochial board. + +3428. Before you got that, did you support yourself entirely by +knitting?-Yes; only at times I have got some things from friends. + +3429. Did you get your meal and provisions from the proceeds of +your knitting?-Yes. + +3430. How did you manage that, when you were paid mostly in +goods?-Often, when I had a little time, I made small shawls for +myself; and when travelling merchants came to town, they would +take my shawls and sell them for me for a little money. + +3431. Did you do that because it was not the custom to give money +for such things at the merchants' shops?-It was not the usual +thing always to give money at the merchants shops. If they had +given it, I might not have given my shawls to these travelling +merchants, + +3432. If you had got money from the merchants shops, you would +have been as ready to sell your shawls to them as to these +strangers?-Yes; but I sold some haps to Mr. Linklater, and got +much the same from him as I got from them. + +3433., Only you got it in goods?-Yes; but if had sought a little +money, I would have got it. + +3434. What was the price of the hap-shawls which you made?-I +have got as high as 3s. and 4s. for them. I don't make the fine +knitting. + +3435. Do you ever make hose or stockings?-Yes. + +3436. What do you get for them?-I don't make many stockings; I +think I am better paid by making these little haps. + +3437. Do you take any lodgers?-I don't take any now. I am in +the Widows' Asylum; but before I went there, I took one or two. + +3438. Did these lodgers help you in your living?-Yes, a little. + +3439. Then you would get money in that way with which to +purchase provisions?-Yes; but I could not get so much knitting +made when I had lodgers. + +3440. But the money you got from them would help you to buy +meal and bread, and what you wanted to live upon?-No; I did not +have above 6d. a week from my lodgers, and sometimes it was 1s.; +but I got through with it, and now it is come to a conclusion. + +3441. How old are you?-I think I am about seventy-two. + +3442. You are still knitting a little?-Yes; my fingers are as clever +as can be yet. + +3448. You don't get money for your knitting now?-I get money +from Mr. Linklater when I ask it. + +3444. How often do you ask it?-I don't like to trouble him too +much, but I know that he would give me what I sought; and many +a time I have got it. He often supplied me when I required it, and +when I had nothing in his hands to get. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, recalled. + +3445. I understand you wish to make some correction on your +former evidence?-Yes; I find I made a mistake. On going back +to the shop after giving my evidence, I found the same girl there +whom I mentioned before, and I spoke to her about what I had said +here. She said it was not a line that she had exchanged. She has +an account in the book, and she had got a bonnet, and had given it +to the other party. Of course it was to the same effect as if she had +given a line. She had got goods from us, and had given them to +another person for cash. + +3446. Was all the rest of your statement correct?-Yes. + +3447. Have you anything to say with regard to the proportion of +goods which are re-dyed about which Mr. Sinclair made some +explanation?-What I meant to say was, that all the goods not +ticketed are re-valued, and that some of them are dyed,-these, of +course, not being re-valued until they come back from the dyer. +Only the finer qualities of goods are ticketed at the time they are +taken from the customer. + +[Page 78] + +3448. So that the larger proportion of goods are, in point of fact, +re-valued?-Yes. By being re-valued, I mean that they are judged +of again in the same way that they were judged of, on being taken +from the customer. I don't mean to say that a different price is put +upon the article; it may be the same price. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled. + +3449. Is there anything you wish to add?-I may make one remark +about that last point,-the valuation of the goods. Many years ago +I had a partner, from which the firm took its name of Sinclair & +Co. At that time we ticketed all the shawls that we bought, with +the exception of the lower-priced ones. We found it a little +inconvenient to be always doing that, and my partner and I, in +order to test our own judgment with regard to these articles, +entered the goods in a book at the ticketed value when we bought +them. When we put them out to the dressing, of course the tickets +were taken off; but when they came back, we re-valued them +according to our own judgment, without any reference to the +entries we had made in the book; and I can declare on my oath that +we never varied one per cent. on the things-we knew their value +so well. When I came to see that I could judge of the values so +well, I did not ticket the lower qualities of goods-only those of +the value of which there could be any doubt. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, MARGARET CLUNAS, examined. + +3450. You are a native of Unst, and you have lived there until +lately?-Yes. + +3451. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes. + +3452. For whom did you knit in Unst?-For Mr. Thomas +Jamieson. + +3453. Is he a merchant and purchaser of hosiery?-Yes. + +3454. Did you knit with wool supplied by him?-Yes; generally. + +3455. You sometimes knitted with worsted of your own?-Yes. + +3456. How were you paid for what you knitted with his +worsted?-The veils were 1s. when made with Scotch worsted, +and 10d. when made with Shetland worsted, and for shawls of +twenty-four scores we were paid 9s. for knitting. + +3457. What do you mean by twenty-four scores?-That was the +size of the shawl. + +3458. Did he pay you in money when you knitted for him in that +way?-No. + +3459. Did you ever get any money from him?-No, I never got it, +because it was a thing he never gave, and we never asked for it. + +3460. Were you content to take the value in goods?-Sometimes, + and sometimes not. + +3461. When were you not content to do that?-When I could not +fall in with the things I was wanting. + +3462. Was that often?-Not very often; but sometimes he was out +of things I wanted. + +3463. When you wanted anything which you could not fall in with +in his shop, what did you do?-Sometimes he sent for it to us, and +sometimes not; and we had then to take just what things were +there. + +3464. Did you live with your father?-Yes. + +3465. He kept you in food, so that you did not require to buy any +food for yourself?-Only sometimes in the summer time chiefly. + +3466. Did you work out in the summer time?-Yes, for day's +wages. + +3467. Then you did not require to knit for your living, but only for +your clothing?-Only for our clothing; but of course we could not +have got food for our knitting from that man, even if we had +required it. He would not have given it. + +3468. How much would you make in the week in Unst by +knitting?-Perhaps 3s. or 4s., according to what we did. + +3469. That was his value in goods?-Yes. + +3470. Were you paid in the same way when you knitted with your +own worsted?-Yes, we were generally paid in the same way. + +3471. What kind of goods did you get from Mr Jamieson?- +Cotton and winceys. + +3472. Did you get tea?-He would sometimes refuse to give above +a quarter pound of tea on a 9s. shawl he did not like to give much +tea. + +3473. Why?-He called it a money article, and he would not give +it. + +3474. How long is it since you left Unst?-It is about two or three +months since I left it first, but I have been home again for some +time. + +3475. Did you come to Lerwick to knit?-No, I came to be a +servant. + +3476. Are you not knitting here now?-Yes, I am knitting at +present. + +3477. Are you out of a place?-Yes. + +3478. Do you deal in the same way here as you did in Unst, or is +there any difference?-There is a woman in Lerwick that I knit to, +and she gets money for our goods, and is thus able to pay us in +money. + +3479. Who is that?-Miss Hutchison, Burn's Lane. + +3480. Does she always pay you in money?-Yes; or if she has any +little thing, which she has got, we can get it. + +3481. Are there other merchants in Unst besides Mr. Jamieson +who buy hosiery?-Yes. + +3482. Who are they?-Mr. Alexander Sandison, at Uyea Sound. + +3483. Where is Mr. Jamieson's place?-At Westing. + +3484. How did you happen to have wool of your own to knit +with?-We generally bought it from people who had wool. + +3485. You got it from the neighbours?-Yes. + +3486. What did you pay for fine Shetland worsted?-We bought +the wool, and we spun it for ourselves. + +3487. Did you ever sell the worsted that you spun?-Yes. + +3488. What did you get for it?-3d. a cut. + +3489. Was that from Mr. Jamieson?-Yes; or from Mr. Sandison, +or any of them. + +3490. Was that paid to you in money?-No. + +3491. Was it always paid in goods?-Yes, but we would have got +more money articles for the worsted than we could get for knitting. + +3492. They would have given you tea for worsted?-Yes. + +3493. Would they not have given cash for it?-We never asked it; +but I believe if we had asked it, we would have got it for worsted. + +3494. Then you did not ask money for your worsted, simply +because you wanted the goods?-Yes + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA ANDERSON or +NICHOLSON, examined. + +3495. You live in Lerwick?-Yes, at the Docks, but we call it +Lerwick. + +3496. Your husband is alive?-Yes. + +3497. Do you sometimes knit?-I don't knit so much at present as +I was accustomed to do, on account of my husband being at home; +and I don't require to do it. + +3498. Have you heard a good deal of the evidence which has been +given here?-Yes; I came here for that purpose, but not to speak. I +wished to hear the evidence which was given, because I had heard +so much said on both sides of the subject. + +3499. In the evidence you have heard, is there much that you differ +from and wish to correct?-As I have [Page 79] had a good deal of +knowledge with regard to the hosiery business and about the +payment in goods, I should like to say what I know about that, and +what I think would be a better plan to take, so far as my experience +goes. + +3500. You have heard a description given of the system as it +exists,-how hosiery is paid for in goods or in lines?-I have not +only heard it, but I have had experience of it for a long time. The +first shawl I knitted was in 1840, and since then almost all that I +have done has been in the hosiery line, either knitting or dressing. + +3501. Has all your work been paid for by goods in an account?- +Almost the whole of it has been paid in that way, that is, what I +have done in Lerwick; but I have done something for Miss +Hutchison. I have also sent some goods south to Mr. John White, +and been paid for them in money. + +3502. But all that you have done for the merchants in Lerwick has +been paid for to you in goods?-I think the whole of it. + +3503. You are speaking now of all the shops in Lerwick?-I don't +have any particular statement to make about one more than +another, because I have dealt with three or four different shops. + +3504. Are you speaking now of articles which you have knitted +with your own wool, or with the wool which was given out to you +by merchants?-I chiefly knitted an article and sold it; but I was in +the way of dressing for a good many years, and, I saw then how the +people complained about getting goods for their work. Their +complaints on that subject were very frequent, and in some cases I +thought they had great reason to complain. + +3505. Why was that?-Because the goods were charged so much +more in some cases than what they could have been got for in +ready money. I may tell you what first opened my mind to that +point. I required a good deal of money at one time. I could not get +it in the way we were then doing, and I then adopted the plan of +trying to dress for some of the hosiers, and getting money for it. + +3506. How long ago was that?-I think it will be about sixteen +years ago. Fourteen years past in July I went south and sold a +Shetland shawl to Mr. Mackenzie, a Shetland warehouseman, in +Princes Street, Edinburgh. He asked me what I wanted for the +shawl, and I said 10s. He said he would give me 8s. I told him I +could get 10s. in Lerwick for it, from the merchants there; and he +said, 'But when I give you 8s., that is just as good to you as 10s. +from them.' I had felt the truth of that, but I had never seen it +properly before. + +3507. Did he explain to you how 8s. in cash from him was equal to +10s. from the merchants in Lerwick?-He told me the profit was +laid on the goods; and at that time, and before that time, I will +declare it was. + +3508. You mean that the goods were dearer in Lerwick than you +could have bought them in the south?-Not only in the south, but +dearer than we could have bought them in another shop in the +town. We could have bought them cheaper in shops in Lerwick +when we were not dealing in the hosiery business. + +3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in +hosiery?-Yes. + +3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at +those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the +hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience, +because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase +them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I +don't say at them all, but I know there are some of the drapery +shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a +case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went +into a shop, and saw a piece that I thought would do. The +merchant brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another +merchant had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind, +and I told this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, ' I +will give it to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;' and I said, 'Well, I will give +you 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards of it;' and he gave it me. A day or two +afterwards a woman came into my house and saw the goods, and +said, 'That is the same as I have bought; what did you pay for +that?'-I said I had paid money, because it is an understanding +that some shops can give it for less with money than with hosiery. +I told her I paid 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she +had paid 2s. of hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or, 6s. 6d. for 31/4 +yards-just the quantity required. + +3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman +and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would +prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence, +and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show +that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any +intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred +accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we +could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for us. +I know that many a poor creature in Lerwick, if she could get +money for her articles, even although she were to get less of it, +could make more of it than she does now, by getting the money in +her own hand, to be applied for any purpose she thought proper. I +heard you ask one of the witnesses whether people would give +them articles for less in money than in goods, and that was what +made me think over it. + +3512. Do you think they would be willing to do so?-I think so. I +remember one time when Mr. Mackenzie-the same gentleman I +have already mentioned-came down to Lerwick and stayed here +for some time, and he gave money for the articles that were +brought to him, but scarcely so much as his own customers in +Lerwick will give you in goods; and that was the way he came to +know that if he gave me 8s., he would pay me as well as some of +those who paid me with 10s. + +3513. Did you sell anything to him at that time?-I sold to him at +the time I was south. I did not sell to him at Lerwick. I could not +get in to see him there, because there were so many people who +came with their work for the sake of getting money for it, although +it was a less sum that he gave than the merchants here. + +3514. How long ago was that?-It was when Mr. Harrison was +dealing in the business. I think it will be about twenty-five years +ago. + +3515. Then the custom at that time was to deal in goods, as it is +now?-Yes; and indeed the goods are rather a better price now +than they were then. We could get scarcely any money articles at +that time at all. I think that the articles are more reasonably priced +now than they were at that time. I have seen us go into a shop +then, and they would ask us what sort of goods we wanted for our +knitting; and if they saw we wanted money article they would +perhaps not take the goods at all. + +3516. You say that you know many girls who would be much +better off by being paid in money?-Yes, if what they tell me is +true. They say that there are many purposes to which they would +require to put money if they had it, but they cannot get it without +doing something for it in some other way, as has been already +explained. I have heard you put a question to some of them about +their being compelled to sell their lines. I don't know any case of +that kind, but I know that they have done that, or equivalent to it, +by taking a piece of cotton out of the shops and selling it in order +to serve the purpose they required the money for. + +3517. I suppose some of them manage to live by taking in lodgers +occasionally?-That is done only on very small scale in Lerwick. + +3518. Do not people in the country sometimes come in and stay +with them for a night or two?-Yes but it could scarcely be called +a lodging-house as that is understood in the south. + +3519. But people do come from the country for a night or two, and +perhaps bring their own provisions with them?-There is very +little of that can be done in Lerwick at present, because there have +been so [Page 80] many people warned out of their farms in the +country. + +3520. Have you known many cases, within your own knowledge, +of girls being in straits in consequence of that system of +dealing?-Yes, I have had to supply them many a time with things. +I bought some little things from a girl within the last week or two +at a reduced price, which she took from me because I could give +her the money. I did not require the article. I only bought it from +her as a charity, and I would not have mentioned it unless you had +asked me. + +3521. Have you ever known of girls falling into evil courses in +consequence of the want of money?-Perhaps if they had the +inclination, they would have fallen into them any way. I think, on +the whole, that if they had money, they would be able to save a +good deal out of the expense for dress which they sometimes wear. +They would then have their money, to do what they chose with it. +Perhaps they might apply some of it for a religious purpose, or put +it into a missionary box; or if they did not think of doing that, they +might have an opportunity to put it into the savings bank, which +Lerwick knitters have never yet had the pleasure doing. + +3522. Is there no savings bank here?-There is a post-office +savings bank; but I don't think there are many of the knitters who +can get the blessing of putting cash into it for a rainy day, either to +pay the doctor or anything else. + +3523. You seem to think that the effect of the system is to lead +them to spend more of their earnings on dress than they would +otherwise do?-When I was young myself and unmarried, and +when I was getting dresses instead of getting money articles for my +work, I would not have thought much of putting a very expensive +dress on; but when I got money I did not like to spend so much +upon dress, because I prized the money so much more. I only +judge others as I would judge myself; but I know that when I was +paid only in goods for my knitting, I would be more ready to take +an expensive dress than if I were to get money. + +3524. I asked you a question just now which you did not answer +quite distinctly: whether you had known of girls who were knitters +falling into evil courses?-I cannot say about that. + +3525. Do you think girls are led to fall into a bad way of living +from the system which prevails here, and from being led by it to +indulge more in dress than they ought to do, or from being in +straits from want of food?-I cannot answer that question. I don't +see why they should do that in consequence of the system; but +what I mean is, that if they could get money for their goods, that +would perhaps prevent them from spending all their earnings in +dress, and expensive articles of that kind, and they would have +something for other purposes which are as necessary, or more so. + +3526. You said the prices differed at certain shops in town: would +you give me an instance of that besides what you have mentioned? +Suppose, for instance, that cotton is charged at 6d. a yard, is not +that the common price for cotton that is given for hosiery?-Yes. + +3527. Do you know whether that could be got cheaper at any other +shop?-That particular thing does not vary so much just now as it +used to do; but with regard to the dress pieces, and things of that +kind, I know there are some shops that have a higher price marked +on the articles than the other shops have on an article of the same +appearance and, I think, of the same value. + +3528. You know that from examining them in the shops?-I know +it by going from shop to shop and purchasing the articles with +money for myself. + +3529. What is your husband's business?-He is a cooper. + +3530. Have you bought Shetland worsted yourself?-I have. + +3531. From merchants or from people?-Generally from country +people. + +3532. Do you always pay money for it?-Yes. + +3533. Have you bought it from merchants too?-Yes. + +3534. Do you always pay them money for it?-I have seen Mr. +Sinclair sometimes supply me with some of it on work, although it +was a money article and I felt obliged to him for it, because I +sometimes could not get it from the country as well as he could. + +3535. That was given you to work into things for yourself?-Yes. + +3536. But the price was the same, in both cases?-Yes; of the +Shetland worsted. + +3537. And when you got it from the shop in that way, it was as a +favour that you got it?-Yes. + +3538. What would be the value of the Shetland worsted in a shawl +that was worth 20s.?-I generally deal with Mr. John White in +shawls that are worth more than that. I do not send many to him +now. + +3539. Do you get a high price for them from him?-No; I can get +as much for them in Lerwick. + +3540. What price do you get for these shawls?-From 28s. to 30s.; +and I can go in with the same shawl to any of the shops in Lerwick +and get the same price, only in goods. I don't say that Mr. White +will give us any more for our shawls than the merchants here will +give us in goods. + +3541. Only you think that, if you get 30s. in cash from Mr. White, +you could possibly buy what you want cheaper than you would get +it from the merchants here in exchange for your hosiery?-Yes, +that is what I mean to say. + +3542. With regard to a shawl worth 30s., how much would you pay +for the Shetland worsted that it is made of?-Perhaps about 9s. or +9s. 6d., or perhaps 8s. 6d. if I could buy it economically. + +3543. About what quantity of worsted would there be in it?- +About thirty-three cuts to that size of shawl. + +3544. Would it be worth more than 8d. a cut?-No. Some people +might charge more, but I generally get it for that. + +3545. Then thirty-three cuts at 3d. a cut would be 8s. 3d. for the +worsted?-Yes. + +3546. How long would it take you to knit such a shawl?-It would +take me a long time just now. + +3547. Perhaps it is hardly possible to calculate how long it would +take?-No. + +3548. The worsted is the only expense you would have in making +such a shawl?-Yes; I could dress it for myself. + +3549. But if you did not, what would be the charge for dressing?- +6d. + +3550. So that the payment for your labour on a shawl of that kind +would be about 21s.?-Yes; but of course, if I was getting it +knitted, I might get it done for about 12s. A knitter would make it +for me for that sum if I were giving her the worsted. + +3551. Have you ever dealt in that way giving out worsted to +knitters, and getting shawls knitted for yourself?-Only on a very +small scale. I knitted more to others when I was young. + +3552. But you have given out some knitting to others?-Yes, +perhaps part of a shawl; so that I calculate the whole cost would be +about that. + +3553. Therefore, if you were giving out a shawl to knit, it would +cost you 8s. 9d. for the material and the dressing, and you would +pay 12s. for the knitting-in all, 20s. 9d.; and you could sell it to +Mr. White in cash for 9s. 3d. of profit?-I would not call it all +profit, because sometimes I have a good deal to do before I can get +the worsted wrought as good as I would like to put it into Mr. +White's shawls, and then I have to lie out of my money until I can +get a party to take it in. Besides, if I were putting it out to knitter, I +would have to stand the risk of getting it done properly to my +mind. There might be some faults in the shawl; and if there was +anything of that kind, there must be an allowance made for that. I +am not saying that I ever did that, I am only speaking of how it +could be done. + +3554. You are speaking of what you could do, and of what you +know can be done, from your experience in giving out part of your +own work?-Yes. + +3555. Do you know anything about the stocking [Page 81] +business-the cheaper and coarser kind of Shetland goods?-No; I +have not much acquaintance with that. I may say, that while I +think in Lerwick it would be far better for the people if they could +get money for their work, yet the country people are not requiring +the money quite so much, as they need the goods at any rate; but +if, as a rule, a money system were once established, and the people +were all to get money for the work, I think those who purchase the +work would find the profit of it as well as those who have to sell it. + +3556. Have you ever considered why this system of paying in +goods is kept up?-Yes. + +3557. What do you suppose to be the reason for it?-If I had had +it in my power, I would perhaps have done the very same as the +merchants have done, because they have got the good of it. + +3558. How have they got the good of it?-Because I think they +must have had a profit on it. + +3559. On the hosiery?-Not so much on the hosiery as on the +goods. Reason teaches me that there must be a profit somewhere, +or else it would not have been carried on to such an extent. + +3560. I suppose the present system of payment induces the people +who sell hosiery to the merchants, to buy their goods from them +rather than from another?-Certainly it does; because, when I go +in with a shawl to a merchant, I consider that I have to take the +whole value of that shawl out in goods. + +3561. It makes the merchants sure of their customers?-Yes. + +3562. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I may mention, that +I think the system of paying half in money and half in goods would +not do. One party was asked whether she would be pleased to take +one half in money, and the rest of the payment in goods. That may +be a good enough plan if it were established and carried on +throughout the year; but I remember that at one time one-half the +value of a shawl was given in groceries, and that plan died away. +The merchants kept groceries at that time, for the sake of getting +hosiery with which to supply their orders. The merchants who did +so were Mr. Harrison and Mr. Laurenson. As the season of the +year came round when they did not have orders for their shawls, +then, if they bought shawls, they had to lay them past until the +market opened again; and there were very few groceries given out, +because I understood they had more profit on their drapery goods. +By and by the system of giving groceries died out altogether. + +3563. Was that because they had a less profit on them than on the +drapery?-I understood so. I remember Mrs. Harrison, the party +with whom Mr. Mackenzie lodged, telling me that as soon as the +country people began to knit, we, the town's people, would suffer +very much. I could not understand very well what she meant at +that time, but afterwards, when the country people supplied the +merchants with the goods which they required, then they saw that +these people from the country only required drapery, and they +could get their orders supplied from the country. That led the +merchants to pay for the hosiery only in drapery goods, and the +Lerwick people had to comply with the same rule. It was when the +country people came in to do the knitting that the supply of +groceries died away, because the merchants could get their orders +so much cheaper from the country people. They did not require +the groceries like the town's people, because knitting was not the +only thing which they had for their living. + +3564. Do you think the ready-money system would be better for +the merchants than the present?-It would be better for those who +have very little profit on the goods they sell, but it would not be so +good for those merchants who take a great deal of profit. + +3565. Are there any of the merchants who take very little profit on +their goods?-There are some who have less than others. + +3566. And you think they would profit by a cash system?-I think, +on the whole, they would. + +3567. They would have no bad debts?-No; and they would not +issue so many lines or have so many clerks; and there are a great +many ways in which I think it would be better for them. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, THOMAS NICHOLSON, examined. + +3568. You are a draper and dealer in hosiery in Lerwick?-Yes, +principally a draper. I don't do much in hosiery. + +3569. You were formerly in the service of Robert Sinclair & +Co.?-Yes. + +3570. You have heard some of the evidence that has been given +here?-Yes, some of it. I think Mrs. Nicholson and Mr. Johnstone +are the only persons whose evidence I have heard throughout. + +3571. Do you concur generally with what Mr. Johnstone said about +the system of business here?-Yes. I also heard a good part of Mr. +Laurenson's evidence, and I thought it gave a fair statement of the +matter. + +3572. Is there anything you wish to add with regard to the system +of paying in goods?-I have nothing to add to what I believe has +already been stated. + +3573. Do you give lines?-Only a very few, when they are asked. + +3574. Do you give them to people from whom you buy hosiery, or +to those who knit for you?-Only to those from whom I buy +hosiery. I don't give out any hosiery to knit at all. + +3575. Is it understood in your trade, as well as in that of the other +gentlemen who have been examined, that all purchases of hosiery +are to be settled for in goods?-Yes, that is generally understood. +It has always been the habit, and we have never got it altered yet. + +3576. Do you think it would be expedient to have a change in that +respect?-I believe it would, if it could only be got to work. + +3577. What is the difficulty in the way of having another +system?-We could not give so much in cash for the goods we +buy. + +3578. Do you think the people generally would not take cash?- +Yes, I believe they would want goods. So far as I am concerned, +they always take goods from me, and I have never heard them ask +for cash. I deal both with country people and with people from +Lerwick, and none of them ever asked me for it. + +3579. Is it long since you left Mr. Sinclair's employment?-About +two and a half years ago. + +3580. There has been no important change made in the system of +carrying on business either in your shop or in his during that +time?-No. + +3581. Do you do much in the coarser kinds of hosiery?-A little +not a great deal. The stockings are generally done by the country +people, and the finer work by the town's people. + +3582. You buy the stockings from the country people?-Yes, I just +exchange the one article for the other. + +3583. You fix a nominal price at which you are to buy the +stockings?-Yes; the price. I expect to get for them, as near as I +can fix it. + +3584. You don't expect to make a profit on them?-No; I would +often be very thankful to get what I have paid for them. + +3585. Then your profit is on the goods which you give in +exchange?-Yes. + +3586. Do you think you take a higher profit on your goods in +consequence of accepting payment for them in hosiery rather than +in cash?-No; the goods are all marked in plain figures. When I +get cash I generally give off 21/2 or 33/4 cent. + +3587. But don't you take a higher profit from all your customers +because so much of your goods are paid for in hosiery?-No; if I +did so, I would run the risk of losing my business; and in fact I +would rather give up the hosiery altogether, because I don't think +it [Page 82] pays very well, so much of it gets damaged, and the +moths get into it. + +3588. How long were you in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-For thirteen +years. + +3589. Were you acquainted both with the prices paid for hosiery +goods and the prices obtained for them in the south?-Yes. + +3590. Was more asked for them from the merchants in the south +than was paid for them to the knitters in Lerwick?-No; we were +always very thankful to get what we had given in goods for them. + +3591. But if a cash price was paid for an article, was a higher price +put upon it when it was sold south?-Yes; if we paid cash, we +required a little more than we had paid. We could not have carried +on the business without having a little profit on it. + +3592. You do not give out any knitting at all?-Scarcely any. I +think I have only two girls knitting for me at present. + +3593. Do they get any part of their payment in cash?-Yes, +whenever they ask it. + +3594. But is it not the understanding that they shall be paid in +goods?-Yes; it is generally understood that they shall get +anything they want. + +3595. How much are they in use to ask for in cash?-Probably a +shilling now and then. + +3596. Do they live by their knitting, or have they other means of +support?-There is one party that does something for me who +lives exclusively, or almost exclusively, by knitting; but almost all +the girls have something else to do besides that. + +3597. What is the name of the girl who lives almost exclusively by +knitting?-I think one of them is Catherine Borthwick. + +3598. Tea is one of the most common articles you give in +exchange for the knitting?-Yes. + +3599. Have you ever known of the goods you gave being +exchanged for necessaries after you gave them?-No. + +3600. Or of your lines being exchanged for necessaries or for +cash?-I never knew of a case where that was done. + +3601. Have you heard of such a thing being done?-I have heard +of it; but I never knew of any of my lines, or any of the goods +bought, from me, being exchanged. + +3602. Are your lines generally brought back by the same parties to +whom they were given out?-I think so; but I am not quite sure, +because we just put on them 'Credit the bearer' so much. + +3603. Have you a register of your lines?-Yes; I enter the number +of the lines in a book. + +3604. Was that a system which you adopted from Mr. Sinclair?-It +was partly a system of my own. When I commenced on my own +account, I adopted the system of keeping a check, the same as a +bank chequebook. + +3605. How many of these lines do you suppose you issue?-I don't +do a great deal in that way. It is only for the accommodation of +the parties that I give any at all. I would be quite prepared to settle +with them at once if they liked. + +3606. I suppose these lines are generally given for the balance +upon a shawl, or anything that you buy?-Yes, for any little thing +they are selling. + +3607. Part of the price is taken in goods, and they take the balance +in a line if they don't want the whole of it?-Yes; or perhaps a line +may be taken for the whole of it, and they come and get tea and +other articles as they want them. + +3608. Is it generally long before they come back with these +lines?-Some of them may be returned perhaps in a few days, and +some of them in a few months. A country girl may keep a line +beside her for perhaps a month or twelve months. I have known +them keep them for three years, when I was in Mr. Sinclair's +employment. + +3609. Then the system of lines existed when you were with Mr. +Sinclair?-Yes. + +3610. But he had not a register of them at that time?-Not for all +the lines: he had a check for them, but they were not all registered +then. + +3611. Are you aware of the fact that the knitters in Shetland are +anxious to sell their goods to others than merchants, in order to get +ready money for them?-I believe some of them are; but I never +met with many who were anxious to sell their goods for cash. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled. + +3612. Do you wish to add anything to your previous evidence?-I +wish merely to say, that I have known cases where people have +gone out with hosiery and sold it for money, and then come into +our shop and bought what goods they required. + +3613. Was that hosiery which had been offered to you before and +was refused?-Yes. + +3614. You had refused to buy it at the price they wanted?-Yes; at +any price. I remember one case of that kind with regard to some +half-stockings. + +3615. When you refused to take them, the woman went and sold +them elsewhere, and then came back to you with the money?- +Yes. + +3616. Was that long ago?-Yes, a good while ago. Of course +there may have been other cases of that kind which I don't know +about, but in that particular case the woman told me she had done +it, I don't remember her name. + + +Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled. + +3617. Do you wish to add anything?-I should like to state +something which struck me just now about a case where I saw +lines given for money. It occurred in my own shop, and I believe +it occurs oftener than we think; but there was one time when I +detected it. A customer came into my shop and made some +purchases, and at the same time another customer came in who I +knew had got lines from the shop. The first person who was +making the purchase was carrying through a cash transaction with +me, and I expected to have been paid in money for it; but the other +customer who had the lines took the other person aside and handed +over the lines to her, and I was paid with them. I did not object to +take the lines for their value, because the goods were charged at a +fixed value for cash or line, but it certainly deprived me of the +cash at that time. + +3618. And it deprived you also of the profit which you would have +had upon the goods that ought to have been given for the line?- +Yes. I merely mention that as an instance in which cash was given +for lines. + +<Adjourned>. + +[Page 83] + +Lerwick: Monday, January 8, 1872. +<Present>-Mr. Guthrie. + +WILLIAM IRVINE, examined + +3619. You are a partner of the firm of Hay & Co., merchants in +Lerwick?-I am. + +3620. You have been so for many years?-Yes. + +3621. I presume you take a principal part in the management of the +affairs of that firm?-I do. + +3622. In consequence of hearing that this inquiry had been +appointed to take place, you have prepared a written statement +with regard to the system pursued in the fish-curing business in +Shetland, which you now hand in?-Yes. + +3623. It is a correct statement?-It is quite correct, to the best of +my knowledge. + +[The following statement was put in by the witness:-] + +I have had many years' experience of Shetland business generally, +and especially of the fish-curing trade. Most of the time I have +been connected with my present partners, and we have curing +stations and establishments at several parts of the islands. We also +manage four estates in the country-two as factors for the +proprietors, and two as lessees. For the first we only account for +the rents collected, but for the other two we pay fixed tack-duties. + +The tenants on one of the estates for which we act as factors +are altogether free to fish where they choose, and to dispose of +their farm produce as they think proper, and their rents are +received in cash every year at Martinmas. The tenants on the +other, which I believe is next the largest in Shetland, are also free +(with the exception of the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay +Skerries); and we seldom see them unless when they come to town +to pay their rents. Some fish to one curer, and some to another, as +they find convenient; and they are quite at liberty to dispose of all +their produce, such as cattle, ponies, hosiery, and the like, where +they can obtain the best prices. We are not liable to the proprietor +for bad debts on this estate either, but the rents are generally well +paid, and very few of the tenants are in arrears. + +In Whalsay there is only one curing station, and we pay the +proprietor a yearly rent for the stores, booths, kelp-shores, and +other privileges; and receive fish, oil, and kelp from the tenants, +for which we settle at the current prices of the country. We have a +factor there, with assistants, who manages for us, and supplies +fishing materials and other necessaries to the men and their +families during the year; and I usually go there myself soon after +Martinmas, to square up accounts, pay the balance due the +fishermen, and collect rents from the tenants. We also pay large +sums of money at all our other country stations. In 1870, when +north settling, I paid the men at Whalsay, after deducting their +advances, £1222; and I find from a state prepared by the factor, +that of fish, oil, and herrings received there that year, amounting to +£2529, 15s. 1d., we paid the men £1584, 12s. 9d. in cash. We +have not yet made up a similar account for 1871; but when settling +there lately, after retaining their advances, I paid them no less than +£1374. There are very few debts in the books there, and the +people are considered to be in good circumstances. + +Of this estate I can speak with confidence, as the management +is more immediately in my department. There are 430 tenants on +the lands-nearly all fishermen and sailors. When we strike out of +the arrear list those tenants who have not had the opportunity of +paying their rents for last year,-two who are old and infirm, and +another who retains his balance for alleged improvements,-the +amount due for the three years it has been in our hands is only £57, +13s. 1d. None of the tenants have been warned or sold out. + +Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and +uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent, +shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any +similar class of men in Scotland. Many of them have sailed in all +quarters of the world. Newspapers are now circulated all over the +islands; and the Aberdeen, Leith, and Clyde Shipping Companies' +powerful steamers bring mails with great regularity twice a week +in summer, and once a week in winter; and in consequence of the +frequent communication, all sorts of farm produce have largely +increased in price. I have seen eggs selling in the islands at 11/2d. +for sixteen,-now the price is 10d. per dozen; butter 6d., now +1s. and 1s. 2d. per pound; fat cattle £3 each, now £6 to £7; ponies +40s., now £6 to £10. + +In our dealings with fishermen, they are charged the same prices +for goods that we sell at for ready money to the public. We +employ a number of carpenters and other tradesmen here, all of +whom receive their wages in cash every Saturday night. + +The Burra Islands are one of the properties which we hold in tack. +We have two curing stations in the islands for convenience of the +fishermen, and factors on the spot to receive the fish as they +are landed from the boats. The fishings are prosecuted on the +coasts in small boats in spring and summer, but the best of the men +are employed out of the islands, and the fishings are now very +unimportant. These men who fish out of the islands are employed +in smacks belonging to Hay & Co., and various other owners, and +prosecute the fishing on the coasts of Faroe and elsewhere, from +the end of March to the middle of August. Those who fish to us +get the same as those who are employed by others. The tenants of +these islands sell their cattle, ponies, hosiery, eggs, and all other +produce (except the few fish caught on the coast), as they like, +without let or hindrance. We have no shop in the islands, and the +men employed by us get their supplies from our stores here and at +Scalloway. Some years ago, after a time of bad crops and bad +fishings, when we had to give them large quantities of meal for +their support, and many of them were unable to pay rents, the +islands were indebted the best part of £1000. We made an attempt +at that time to get the young men to fish to us and assist their +parents, and I think in two cases we imposed fines of 20s.; but it +had a contrary effect to what we intended, and, so far as I +remember, the money was given back. I do not mention that the +men are confined to our stores. They can deal with any other curer +or shopkeeper they choose, and all our fishermen over islands can +do the same, and at settlement receive their season's earnings +wholly in cash. I believe this is the general practice; and were it +otherwise, there is the small-debt court, the sheriff court, and +several lawyers here to help them to their rights. + +On the other estate referred to of which we are lessees, the +tenants who remain at home are nearly all employed in the ling +fishing. Some go south sailing, and pay their rents in cash, and we +never exercise any control over them; but as we pay the current +price to the tenants who remain at home, we insist on getting their +fish as a security for their rents, otherwise the improvident might +squander their earnings, and in some bad years be unable to pay. +We never interfere with any of the tenants' produce except fish, on +this estate more than the others. They are left to dispose of it +where they like. + +We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, +and employ a number of men and boys [Page 84] from all quarters +during the summer months, but after they settle, we have no +transactions with them till another year comes round, when they +return to our employment if they think they have been well served. + +As already mentioned, we are engaged in the deep-sea cod fishing, +and, like others, send vessels to fish at Faroe, Rockall, and Iceland. +The crews are engaged on shares, and the fish are salted on board, +and afterwards landed at the curing stations in a wet state. When +ready for market, they are sold at the best price that can be +obtained, and, after deducting expenses and other charges +according to agreement, the proceeds are divided equally- +one-half to the owners, and the other to the crew. Fishings of all +kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they +are secured on monthly wages, there is no inducement for +exertion. The fishing season being short, the utmost activity is +necessary; and when the weather is favourable, the men are often +obliged to work day and night. + +Shetland fishermen are not altogether dependent for their +livelihood on the produce of the fishings. In most cases they have +farms that can keep their families six to eight months, and with +good crops many of them have no occasion to buy meal the year +round. They cannot afford to use fresh beef, but, as a rule, most +families can kill a pig; and on the whole, in ordinary seasons, I +believe they have a much greater abundance of the necessaries of +life than a great many people of their class in the kingdom. They +are, without doubt, more independent and less under control than +mechanics and others (who are obliged to work under a master a +stated number of hours every day), and consequently are more +happy and contented. We have no international societies in +Shetland. Some of the dwelling-houses are not what they should +be, but a great improvement has taken place in this respect since +the timber-duty was repealed; and, for my own part, I would ten +times rather live a year in a Shetland cottage, surrounded by pure +air, than week in one of the slums of London or Glasgow. + +Preparations for the ling fishing commence early in spring. +The men form themselves into crews, and appoint the most +experienced man as skipper. If they have no boat of their own, +one must be hired, or a new one built; but the lines in most cases +belong to themselves, and they always find curers ready to supply +them with what they want, on condition that they receive their fish. + +No curer would be safe to make these advances, without the +men engaging to deliver their fish-a new boat alone costing +about £20 without lines, The price of the summer fish is seldom +fixed until the end of the season, when the fish are sold for the +south-country markets. + +Fishermen are quite safe with this arrangement. They know the +competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that +they are secure to get the highest possible price that the markets +can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the +fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following +year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in +their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving +credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to +themselves, and in the end come to grief. I have known crews to +be engaged at fixed prices before the commencement of the +fishing but as markets improved towards the end of the season, we +were obliged to throw the agreement aside and pay the same as +others, in order not to lose the men's services the following year. +When the fishing season is over and the fish prepared for market, +south-country dealers contract for it at prices free on board; and +with them again there is competition, so that curers seldom fail to +get the full value of the article. + +People in the south, who have to pay perhaps 4s. to 7s. 6d. for +a fresh cod or ling, are surprised to hear that the poor Shetland +fishermen only get 6d. to 9d.; and we have had a great deal of +clever writing on this subject lately, without much common sense. +The shipping price of ling in the past season has been £23,-rather +higher than usual,-and fishermen have been paid 8s. per cwt. +wet, or about 9d. per fish. Although it has been rather a good year +for curers, the following statement will show that fortunes are not +rapidly accumulated in the trade:- + +21/4 cwt. wet fish, cured ready for market, + weigh only 1 cwt.-21/4 cwt. @ 8s. £0 18 0 +Add cost of salt, hire of vats, tubs, tarpaulins, +and other curing materials; +also wages to men and boys splitting, +washing, and drying; and expense of + flitting from beaches-weighing and + storing usually reckoned. . . 0 3 0 + £1 1 0 + +21s. per cwt., or £21 per ton, leaving 40s. to the curer, out of +which he has to pay store rent, weighing, shipping, skippers' fees, +gratuities to fishermen, and to meet loss by small and damaged +fish, and of interest-the sales being made at three months in +October, and the men settled with in November; and further, when +the risk of sales is also taken into account, the sum left to +remunerate the curer for his season's work is not very large. + +One great drawback on a Shetland business is fishermen's bad +debts, and our chief study is to limit the supplies when we know +the men to be improvident; but it is quite impossible to keep men +clear when the fishing proves unsuccessful. There is no difficulty, +however, when dealing with careful men. + +At various stations round the islands near the fishing grounds, +where there are natural beaches, the men have small huts to live in +during the fishing season, and the crews assemble there about +the middle of May to commence operations. The merchants or +fish-curers have the necessary curing materials on the spot, and +factors, splitters, and beach boys attending to receive and cure the +fish; and, while the fishing is carried on, the men go to their +respective homes every Saturday, taking with them small and +unmerchantable fish for the use of their families-returning to the +stations, with provisions for the week, every Monday. They +generally make two or three trips during the week, according to the +state of the weather, and weigh and deliver over the catch when +they land. Their families get supplies from the factor's shop as +required; but the men have opportunities weekly of seeing their +accounts and can limit these supplies if they choose. + +The Whalsay fishermen deliver their fish in summer, and live +at small holms to seaward of the main island near the fishing +ground, and a large boat is employed to remove their fish to the +beach at Simbister to be dried. The men are thus enabled to +make more voyages to the haaf than by landing each time at the +curing-beach. + +As settling time approaches, our managers in the country +prepare by sending for the men, and reading over to them +individually their private accounts, comparing and making up +pass-books, where any are kept, and giving copies of the accounts +when desired; and when we come to settle, each man knows +exactly the amount of his season's expenditure. + +If a ready-money system were adopted, and payments made in +cash for each landing, I believe it would scarcely be practicable +to carry it out. Large sums of money would require to be kept at +these stations,-men with some knowledge of figures and +accounts to be always present,-and half the fishermen's time +would be taken up with the settlements. The money would then +be carried home to their families, and in many cases at the end of +the season there would be little left to pay rent and provide +necessaries for the winter months, when there are no fishings, +and no work except at their own farms. Such a mode of dealing +would otherwise injure the men, as curers with small means +would be driven out of the trade, and in some measure competition +prevented. + +From twenty-five to thirty years ago I had several opportunities +of seeing how the fishings were conducted Barra and South Uist. +At that time the fishermen were all living in wretched hovels along +the sea-coast, and the islands let for grazing cattle and in sheep +farms. Very few of them were able to keep a cow, and they knew +nothing of the luxuries of life, and could scarcely command a bare +existence. Their chief living in winter [Page 85] and spring was +potatoes not fit for pigs, and shell-fish, with any small fish they +could catch in the bays. There were plenty of fish on the coast, but +no middle-men with capital to encourage the men to work. In +summer they prosecuted the fishing a little distance outside of the +islands, where their buoys could be seen from the shore. Their +boats were clumsy and unmanageable-some with sails and some +without; and the lines were made by themselves out of hemp +obtained on credit, and only lasted one year. They were set on the +fishing ground at the commencement of the season, and seldom +taken up to dry. Now, however, I understand large capital is +embarked in the fishing trade in that quarter, and of late years it +has been very prosperous, and the circumstances of the natives +greatly improved. + +In 1785 a Commissioner was sent by Government to inquire into +the state of the fisheries in the Hebrides, and in his report to a +committee of the House of Commons, on being asked 'whether he +thought it would be benefit to the lower classes of people if any of +the tacksmen or others were debarred by law from entering into a +contract with these people for obtaining the pre-emption of their +fish, etc., as specified in his report,' he answered, 'That, so far +from thinking it would be a benefit to the people, he should think +it would prove a material injury to them; for they have no other +possible way of being supplied with the necessaries they want +from distant markets but by the intervention of those persons who +keep stores in the manner described in the report; neither have +they in general any means of finding money to purchase boats and +other necessary apparatus for fishing; and that, unless they were +furnished by these storekeepers upon credit, very few of them +could engage in the fisheries at all; and, in the present situation of +that country, as they have no other possible way of paying the +debts they thus contract but by the fish they catch, no person +would furnish these upon credit unless they had the pre-emption of +them: that it has been already stated in the report, that this kind of +trade, though apparently very oppressive to the poor in all cases, +affords but very little profit to the merchants; and that he knew +several instances where the people who keep these stores, by +acting in a disinterested manner, have contributed very essentially +to promote the welfare of the country.' + +Since that date the Shetland fisheries also have been largely +extended by the introduction of capital and the opening of stores +among the different islands, where the men can always obtain +fishing materials and supplies for their families; but to the present +day the answer still holds good: curers must have the pre-emption +of the fish, as a security for payment. + +In the evidence before the Truck Commission in Edinburgh lately, +witnesses were examined who had little knowledge of Shetland +business, and many of the statements were not only contrary to +fact, but simply absurd. For instance, can any man of common +sense imagine that a merchant would come to grief in consequence +of not having enough of bad debts, and that if he could carry on +until he had £2000 of bad debts, he would do a flourishing trade, +'because they keep it going in a circle, and it never gets worse?' +That was one of the extraordinary statements made to the +Commission. Is it not clear that if a dealer with small means +emptied his shop of goods to people who could not pay for +them, then, as soon as the bills he had granted for these goods fell +due, he might shut it up? + +As already mentioned, the Shetland fishing trade has been +largely developed by increased capital of late years, but in all +time past it has been conducted on the same principles, with few +modifications, as at present, and will be so, I think, in all time +coming. If the islands and their fishing banks could be removed to +near London, where the fish might be sold fresh at high prices, the +fishermen would be greatly benefited; but as this is impossible, we +must all submit to the inevitable. It is true, Government may +attempt to change the trade by Act of Parliament; but in that case +they will either have to remove the entire fishing population to +some other and better country, or keep them at home as paupers, +by annual grants for food and clothing. + +We are not engaged in the hosiery trade; but I know it to be the +most troublesome business in the islands, being conducted chiefly +by barter. I think it could not be carried on very well to any extent +otherwise. We would be quite ready to embark in it and buy for +cash, if we could make a commission; but I do not believe it would +pay the expenses and servants' wages. Giving goods in exchange, +hosiers can afford to allow a much higher price for the articles +than we could for cash, and therefore very little of the trade would +come our way if we took it up. + +Besides the fishing trade, we have acted a long time as agents +for ships engaged in the Greenland and Davis' Straits whale and +seal fishing. These vessels call here to complete their crews in +February and March; and when they return, the men are either +landed at Lerwick, or some other point of the islands as they pass +south. When they go out, the men are engaged at the shipping +office, and receive a month's wages in advance, in presence of the +shipping master, and the agents are reimbursed when they send the +accounts to the owners. When the ships return and the men are +landed, they disperse without a moment's delay (in most cases) to +their several homes, and come back to Lerwick to settle for their +wages and first payment of oil-money, individually, as it suits their +own convenience; and in the same way, a second time, to receive +the balance of their oil-money and sign the ship's release. This +may be better understood from the following correspondence that +took place the past year between Hay & Co. and one of the +Peterhead shipowners, in respect to a notice said to be issued by +the Board of Trade, headed 'Truck System in Lerwick:'- + + 'PETERHEAD, 16<th March> 1871. +'R. KIDD <to> HAY & CO. + 'I enclose you letter I have received from H.M. Customs as +regards the engaging and paying of the men engaged in the +Greenland fishing ships. You will know how to act in regard to +this. You have likely received direct orders, and I only enclose it +to keep you in mind of it.' + The document to which Mr. Kidd's letter refers is given +below.* + +* 'TRUCK SYSTEM IN LERWICK. +'It appears from the returns and documents received by the +Registrar-General of Seamen, that the indulgence granted by the +Board of Trade under their special regulations, M. 2884/1864, to +the owners and masters of sealing and whaling vessels, in respect +to seamen engaged at Orkney and Shetland, has in a great measure +been abused, and the whole object of the regulations defeated +by the agents employed by and representing the owners at +Lerwick. The Board of Trade are informed that many of the +Shetland seamen who should have been discharged before the +Superintendent there, within a reasonable time after their being +landed on the termination of a first or second voyage, remain +undischarged and unpaid even into the currency of the succeeding +year, and that some of the releases for 1870 still remain +incomplete. + +'It should be borne in mind that the exceptional regulations +referred to were issued by the Board of Trade, with a view to the +convenience of the owners and masters of this class of vessels, and +the protection of the Shetland seamen; but as the latter intention +seems to have been purposely frustrated, the Board of Trade direct +you to inform the owners and masters of those vessels whose +crews are engaged before you during the ensuing season, that +unless they cause their agents to comply with the spirit as well as +the letter of these regulations, and discharge the men within one +month of their being landed, the Board will be necessitated either +to render the regulations more stringent, or withdraw them +altogether. If the latter alternative were adopted, the discharge of +the Orkney and Shetland whaling crews would have to take place +under the more rigid terms prescribed by the Merchant Shipping +Act, 1854, which of all other vessels at ports in the United +Kingdom.' + +'CUSTOM HOUSE, PETERHEAD, +'10<th March> 1871 + +'SIR,-The foregoing is a copy of directions just received from +the Board of Trade, dated 7th March, regarding the faulty way in +which seamen are discharged from Peterhead whaling vessels at +Lerwick; and I now beg to call your attention thereto, requesting +that you would instruct your agent at Lerwick to attend to the +previous instructions issued, which were circulated among the +masters and agents when they were issued. + 'W.R. BALFOUR. + 'Mr. R. KIDD, Merchant.' + +[Page 86] + +'LERWICK, 27<th March> 1871. + 'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD. + +'We are duly favoured with your's of 16th instant, enclosing a +communication from the Board of Trade in reference to payment +of wages to Shetlandmen on board of ships in the Greenland trade, +and headed by the words, 'Truck in Lerwick,'-a cry raised by a +stranger who has taken up his residence in Shetland, and is now +endeavouring, by every means in his power, to make himself +prominent both here and elsewhere. + +'We utterly deny that we have ever 'purposely frustrated' the +Board regulations in respect to the payment of these men; on the +contrary, we have kept a clerk, whose time has been chiefly +occupied in settling the wages in presence of the collector as they +came to town one by one, according to their own convenience; and +you know how far the commission we get from the ships can go +towards his salary. Nobody can compel the men to come to town +all at one time for their wages; and if the releases of 1870 are not +yet completed, it is not our fault. + +'Without attaching any blame to you, we consider the document +referred to-if it is meant to apply to us-a gratuitous insult. The +Greenland agency is no great object, and after this season we shall +not put ourselves in a position to have it repeated.' + + 'PETERHEAD, 23<d March> 1871. +'R. KIDD <to> HAY & CO. + +'I sent the document from the Board of Trade, in case you should +not have received a copy. I am of opinion that the men will +suffer more by this new order than the merchants, from the +experience I have had here. Were I not to give some credit to +some of our own men during the winter, their families would +starve. I do not wonder you feel sore upon the subject of the +report.' + +'LERWICK, 27<th March> 1871. +'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD. + +'We have yours of 23d instant. With respect to advances, our +people are differently circumstanced from yours. The married +men have all farms in the country, and the young men live with +their friends there, and we never see them from the time they settle +the one year until they come to town to engage the next; so during +the winter they neither ask, nor would we give them any supplies if +they did, as in all probability they would offer their services first to +agents who held no claim against them. Of the twenty men +engaged for the 'Mazinthien,' not one was due us a shilling, and +their month's wages was paid to them in cash at the shipping +office at the time they signed articles; and any advances their +families may get during their absence is given on their monthly +notes, which are the only authority we have for making the +deduction from their wages when they return. + +'A great deal of absurdity has been written lately on this subject by +well-meaning people, but who were entirely ignorant of the whole +matter, and ready to believe whatever was told them, without +taking the trouble to ascertain whether it was true or false.' + +'LERWICK, 22<d. May> 1871 +'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD. + +'Referring to your letter of 16th March, we now send you +enclosed abstract account of payments to Shetlandmen on board +vessels for which we have acted as agents during the past three +seasons, 1869, 1870, and 1871, to show how far we have benefited +by what the Board of Trade are pleased to call the 'Truck System +in Lerwick.' + +'We are almost inclined to suppose the document now referred +to, received in your letter of the above date, was titled at +Peterhead, as we can scarcely believe it would be issued from a +public office in London before previous inquiry had been made on +the subject. + +'As to signing the releases at the Custom House, neither the +owners nor agents of the ship can compel the men to come to +Lerwick for their wages, otherwise than they find it convenient for +themselves. It would save us much trouble if they would wait in +town a few hours after the ship's arrival, and receive their wages +all at once at the Custom House; or, when they happen to be +landed at a distance from Lerwick, if they could arrange to meet +together here for the purpose at the same time. + +'While matters remain as at present, whether these releases are +signed or not, we can only do as we have always done in time past: +pay the men promptly when they call. The supplies mentioned in +the account now enclosed consist mostly of meal given to the +men's families to account of their half-pay notes, and on which the +profits cannot pay cellar rents, and servants' wages receiving and +delivering it; so that, beyond the 21/2 per cent. commission on the +wages, we have no inducement to continue in the trade.' + +The abstract account above referred to is given below.* + +* ABSTRACT ACCOUNT of WAGES paid by HAY & CO., +Lerwick, to Shetlandmen belonging to Ships engaged in the +Greenland and Davis' Straits Seal and Whale Fishery, during the +years 1869, 1870, and 1871:- + +Name of Ship Men Amount of Supplies before Paid in + Wages and Sailing, and to Cash + Oil-Money family during + the Man's + Absence +1869 Labrador 20 £94 14 10 £4 3 9 £90 11 1 +1869 Intrepid 28 355 0 21/2 71 19 51/2 283 0 9 +1869 Alexander 21 272 19 8 31 14 11 241 4 9 +Total 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7 +1870 Labrador 21 £196 9 5 £7 18 0 £188 11 5 +1870 Mazinthien16 226 18 0 49 7 1 177 10 11 +1870 Eclipse 12 256 2 0 29 5 9 226 16 3 +1870 Erik 30 562 0 6 66 17 41/2 495 3 11/2 +Total 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 1/2 + +1871 Labrador 25 £221 7 4 ...... £221 7 4 +1871 Erik 26 138 2 5 £ 8 15 3 £129 7 2 +1871 Eclipse# +1871 Mazinthein# +1871 Erik to + D. Straits# 51 £359 9 9 £8 15 3 £350 14 6 +1869 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7 +1870 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 81/2 +1871 51 £359 9 9 £ 8 15 3 £350 14 6 + 199 £2323 14 41/2 £270 1 7 £2053 12 9 1/2 +Average per +man for the +three years £11 13 6 £1 7 2 £10 6 4 + +# Voyage not ended. + + +In conclusion, I have only to add, that Hay & Co. have given +notice to their friends, the shipowners in Peterhead and Dundee, +that they cannot continue any longer to act for them. + + +3624. You say in that statement that you manage four estates in the +country: what are these estates?-There are two for which we act +as factors-the estates of Lord Zetland, and Mr. Bruce of +Simbister; and there are two of which we are lessees-the Burra +islands, belonging to the Misses Scott of Scalloway, and the +Gossaburgh estate, in Yell and Northmavine. + +3625. You say that the tenants on the estate of Mr. Bruce of +Simbister, with the exception of those on the island of Whalsay, +and Whalsay Skerries, are free to fish for whom they like: what +is the nature of the obligation under which the tenants in the island +of Whalsay lie?-There is only one fish-curing establishment +there, and the men could not conveniently fish out of the island. +We have a place rented from the proprietor as a curing +establishment, with booths and beaches, and all curing +preparations made for receiving their fish; and it is an understood +thing that the tenants are to deliver the fish to us at the current +price of the country. + +3626. That is not an obligation that enters into any written +lease?-No; it is merely an understanding with the proprietor. We +have no lease of the island. + +3627. Is it a condition of the verbal tacks of the [Page 87] tenants, +that they shall fish for you?-Yes; they are made to understand +that they are to deliver their fish to us at the current price. + +3628. That applies to the home fishing?-To the home fishing +only. The Whalsay men are not engaged in any other fishing. + +3629. They don't go to the Faroe fishing at all?-No. + +3630. Is yours the only shop upon that island?-The only shop. + +3631. Have you an establishment at the Out Skerries too?-Do you +mean at the Skerries lying to the eastward, where the boats deliver +their fish? + +3632. Yes.-No, we have no establishment for supplying the +people with goods; but we have beach boys and curing materials at +the Skerries to the east of Whalsay. + +3633. Is there not a firm who have an establishment there?-Yes, +at Skerries; but that is a different Skerries, which lies farther out +beyond where the lighthouse is. There is more than one curer +there, but the Whalsay men don't deliver any of their fish at that +place. + +3634. It is at the Out Skerries where other firms have +establishments-both shops and curing places?-Yes; but we have +nothing there. + +3635. Do the Whalsay people fish for these other firms at the Out +Skerries?-No. + +3636. Where do their fishermen come from?-From Lunnasting, +Delting, Nesting, and other places. + +3637. They are not inhabitants of the islands?-No. + +3638. Then the establishment at Out Skerries is a temporary +one?-No. I think one curer has an establishment there all the +year round, and a factor; but the fishermen don't live there all the +year round. They live in huts during the fishing, and go home to +their families when the fishing is over. + +3639. You say that some of the men fish to one curer and some to +another, as they find convenient: in that statement do you refer to +the Simbister estate, with the exception of Whalsay?-Yes, with +the exception of Whalsay. It includes Whalsay also, so far as the +cattle, ponies, hosiery, and other things are concerned. There is no +restriction on them selling these where they like; it is simply the +fish they take in the island that we expect to get. + +3640. In Whalsay, are the fishermen expected to deal only in your +store for their fishing materials and the supplies for their +families?-That is quite optional. They can take their supplies +from our store; and suppose they take most of them there, because +it is more convenient for them than to go anywhere else. + +3641. In point of fact they have no option, because there is no +other shop in Whalsay?-There is not, but they can go to Lerwick, +and they do go there sometimes. I think the note I have given in as +to Burra answers that question. + +3642. Is there any restriction on the establishment of other shops in +Whalsay?-There is no means for any person opening a shop +there. There is no shop, and no building, and no right to build in +the island without the proprietor's liberty. There is only the one +shop there. + +3643. What is the population of the island?-I don't think the +census of last year would show that, because it is mixed up with +other parts of the parish. + +3644. Have you any idea how many fishermen are employed by +you in the island?-Yes, I can tell that. We have twenty-seven +fully-manned boats, each with six men and boys. These are the +fishermen; but there are tenants who are not fishermen, and +fishermen who are not tenants. + +3645. That would give a total of 162 fishermen employed by you, +but some of them may be members of the same family?-Yes. + +3646. Are there many tenants who are not fishermen?-Not very +many. + +3647. Have there been any applications for liberty to establish a +new shop in the island of Whalsay?-No. + +3648. You have never, in your capacity as factor for Mr. Bruce, +received an application for ground for that purpose?-Never. + +3649. Would you have any objection to grant such permission if it +were asked?-Although I am acting as factor for Mr. Bruce, the +granting or refusal of such an application would depend entirely +upon the proprietor. + +3650. I suppose you cannot tell whether he would refuse it or +not?-I cannot tell. In fact we have the only curing establishment +there. We have the beaches, and all the preparations for curing, +and there could be no other establishment in Whalsay. + +3651. I am not speaking of an establishment for fish-curing; but +suppose a merchant wished to establish a shop there for the sale of +provisions and soft goods, do you think he would meet with a +refusal from Mr. Bruce?-I cannot answer that question. + +3652. In Whalsay you are only factors for Mr. Bruce, not lessees +of the island?-We are not lessees. I act as Mr. Bruce's factor. + +3653. Yet, notwithstanding that, the islanders are bound to fish +for any one to whom the proprietor lets the fish-curing +establishment?-Yes; on the understanding with the curer, that he +pays the same price as other curers in the country pay for the +produce of the fishing. + +3654. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce for your booths and curing +establishment; and in consideration of that rent it is understood +that the tenants are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Yes. + +3655. Have the fishermen refused, in any cases within your +experience, to fulfil that obligation? Have they smuggled their fish +away, or endeavoured to evade that stipulation?-I understand that +before we came to the island they smuggled a great part of their +fish away to other curers, but, so far as I can learn, I don't think +they smuggle any of them away now. I believe we have got the +whole procedure. + +3656. How long is it since you got the island?-I think it is five or +six years ago. + +3657. Who was the merchant before?-The proprietor received +their fish himself. + +3658. Suppose a fisherman were to bring his fish to Lerwick, or +take them to Skerries or any other station, and sell them, would the +result be, that he would have to leave his farm?-I cannot say what +the result would be if he were to do so, because we have never +been aware of any single case where a fisherman went past us with +his fish. + +3659. But if he did so, would you consider yourselves entitled to +remove him?-No, not to remove him; but we would consider +ourselves entitled to complain to Mr. Bruce. + +3660. And he would remove him?-If he thought proper. + +3661. You say that in 1870, after deducting advances, you paid the +men in that island £1222: would the number of men fishing for +you at that time be about the same that you have now?-I think +there were 155 in 1870. + +3662. That sum of £1222 was the amount of cash balances due to +them and paid to them at the end of the year?-Yes; and which, +when paid, left them entirely clear in our books. + +3663. Was their rent paid in account with you?-These were the +payments to the fishermen. The tenants would pay their rents to +me as factor separately out of that sum. + +3664. But in what form are your accounts made up?-My factory +accounts are kept entirely free from our fishing accounts. + +3665. The payment of rent there would be made at the same time +when you went to settle with your fishermen?-Yes. + +3666. I presume you gave them a separate receipt for their rents, +and entered the payment in a separate factory book?-Yes. + +3667. Is the form of accounting with the fishermen in Whalsay the +same as you use in your dealings with your other fishermen?- +Quite the same. + +3668. Have they pass-books at the shop?-Some of them have +pass-books, and some have not. + +[Page 88] + +3669. I suppose that in the name of each fisherman, there is an +account in the books kept at the shop?-Every fisherman has a +page for himself. + +3670. In it all the goods furnished to him or to his family are +entered on the one side?-Yes. + +3671. Is there a credit side to the account?-Yes. When we settle +with him, we give him credit for his share of the fishing. + +3672. Is there a separate fishing-book?-There is a book kept by +the fish factor, in which he enters the fish as he receives them. + +3673. He is a separate man from the shopman?-Yes; he keeps a +separate book, in which the green fish as they are received are +entered in name of the company or crew. + +3674. Is a bargain made with the fishermen at the beginning of the +year?-Sometimes, but not often. Where there is no bargain made +with them, the general understanding is, that the men get what +supplies they require, and that they get also the current price of the +season for their fish. + +3675. That is the current price at the end of the season?-Yes. + +3676. Are they entitled to one-half of the take?-Not in this case. +They get the whole of their take. It is a different agreement +altogether from that which obtains in the case of the smacks that +prosecute the cod fishing at Faroe. In this case the boat and lines +belong to the men themselves, and the whole of their catch +belongs to them. At the end of the season their catch is added up +and divided, and, after any company expenses are taken off, the +rest is divided among the men. + +3677. How are they valued?-The fish are weighed green and +measured, and the weight is entered in the factor's book. They +deliver to us twice or thrice a week, and at the end of the season +the whole is added up and converted into money. + +3678. How do you estimate the money value then?-Just +according to the price of the fish for the year. + +3679. But the price you pay is for cured fish?-No; the price of +cured fish is what we obtain for them when we sell them ready for +market. + +3680. Then the price paid to the men is the price for green fish?- +Yes; a different thing altogether. + +3681. Do you pay the men according to the price of green fish at +the end of the season?-Yes, a certain price per cwt. + +3682. How much will a cwt. of green fish weigh when cured?-It +is reckoned that 21/4 cwt. of green fish will make 1 cwt. of dry fish. + +3683. Then, in fixing the price of green fish at the end of the +season, the principal consideration is what the price of cured fish +may be?-Yes, the price which cured fish bring in the market. + +3684. You ascertain the price of cured fish, and calculate from that +what price you are to allow to the fishermen for the green fish +throughout the season?-Yes. + +3685. Is the sale of cured fish going on during the autumn and +winter, or are your sales generally later?-The sales are generally, +made in the months of September and October. The bulk of the +ling is sold in these months. + +3686. Would it not be equally convenient to fix the price of the +green fish about the time when your sales are made?-It is about +that time that the price of the green fish is fixed, and we settle +immediately afterwards. + +3687. I understood your settlement was not made until later?-It is +generally in November. In some cases we may settle in the +beginning or December. + +3688. But with some merchants the settling time is later, is it +not?-They generally begin to settle about November, and I think +they mostly all settle about November or December. + +3689. I think some statements have been made to the effect that +the settlement goes on as late in the year as February. I don't think +those statements were made with reference to your firm, but rather +had reference to others: do you know whether that is so?-I think +we have settled with most of our fishermen now. + +3690. But don't you know the practice of other firms?-It is +sometimes not convenient to settle until further on in the season, +and I think Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh has not settled yet. But there +is a reason for that: he has been out of the country. + +3691. In point of fact, is it not the usual practice that the +settlement does not take place until January or February?-The +settlements generally begin very soon after Martinmas, and +continue until perhaps about the end of the year. In some cases +they may as late as January or February. + +3692. Is there any reason for that?-None; except that people +cannot get all their work done at one time. They must take one +district before another. + +3693. Are your settlements later in some districts than they are at +Whalsay?-In some districts they are later. + +3694. They may be protracted up to the New Year?-Yes, +frequently. + +3695. Have you completed all your settlements now?-We have +completed all our settlements, with the exception of Burra. We +have not settled with the men there yet, but we shall commence to +settle with them immediately. + +3696. Are the fishermen consulted with regard to the fixing of the +current price at the end of the season?-I think very seldom; but it +is quite an easy matter to know that the merchant can afford to +give after he has sold his fish, and every fish-curer is very anxious +to give the highest possible price he can afford to the fisherman, +for the sake of securing his services another year. + +3697. But this rule cannot apply to Whalsay, because there the +fishermen are bound to fish?-Yes; but we are bound to pay the +fishermen there the same price as is paid by the other curers +through the country. The curers very often pay a higher current +price than they can afford, just from a desire to get the people's +services in the following year. + +3698. The fish-curers markets, I suppose, are over all the world?- +Yes. + +3699. Are they to a considerable extent in Spain?-Yes, for the +cod. A great deal of the cod is sold there. The ling is sold in +Leith, Glasgow, Ireland, and in London. There is not much of it +goes to Spain. + +3700. Is there any understanding among the fish-merchants in +Shetland, after their sales have been made in September, as to +what the current price is to be held to be?-That is scarcely +necessary, because, when they have sold their dry fish, they know +exactly how far they can go with their fishermen. + +3701. Do you mean that each curer knows from his own sales?- +Yes; each curer knows exactly. When we sold our fish this year at +£23, we knew what we could pay our fishermen without losing +money. We knew that we could not exceed 8s. per cwt. + +3702. But, in point of fact, is there any communication between +the Shetland fish-merchants on that subject?-It is quite possible +that after the fish are sold, the fish-merchants may converse +together on the subject if they happen to meet. + +3703. Is a meeting held for the purpose of fixing the current +price?-No. + +3704. Has there ever been a practice of holding such meetings?- +Not that I ever heard of. + +3705. Is there any correspondence entered into between the +fish-merchants for the purpose of ascertaining the average +price?-I don't know that there is any correspondence entered into +specially for that purpose; but it is quite possible that, when one +curer is writing to another, the subject may be mentioned. + +3706. Am I to understand you to say that there is no practice of +meeting for the purpose of fixing the price, and that such a +meeting never has been held, to your knowledge?-I cannot say +what meetings have been held; but I am not aware of any meeting +having ever been held for such a purpose. I have not attended any +such meeting. + +3707. Then is it quite correct to say, as you say [Page 89] here, that +the price paid to the fishermen for their fish is the current price of +the country?-Yes. + +3708. Is it not rather the price which each fish-merchant estimates +that he can afford to give?-The price which each fish-merchant +pays makes the current price of the country; and, so far as I know, +the price that the fish-curers in Shetland have got this year for dry +fish has been £23 per. ton. They have all been sold at the same +price to south-country merchants. + +3709. You believe there has been no difference?-I don't think +there has been any difference this year at all. + +3710. But in one part of your statement you point out that the sum, +left as remuneration to the curer for the season's work is not very +large: does not that rather go to show that the fish-curer does not +take into consideration so much the current price as the price +which is actually paid to him for his fish?-It is the price that he +receives for his fish which enables him to say exactly what price +he can afford to pay to the fishermen. I think the curers this year +have all been paid the same price for ling, and I believe it was +considered a very high price. + +3711. Is there generally much difference in the prices which +different curers get?-Very seldom; sometimes 10s. or sometimes +£1. If there is a great demand for fish, some merchants, by holding +on later than others, may obtain an advance of that amount, and in +that case they might give their fishermen a little more. Perhaps +they do so, and get more of them to fish for them another year. + +3712. But the fishermen who are bound to fish for a particular +merchant don't get the benefit of such an increased price?-There +are not very many fishermen bound to fish, so far as I know; only a +few cases. + +3713. To return to Whalsay: you say there are very few debts in the +books there, and that the people are considered to be in good +circumstances?-There are almost no debts due to Hay & Co. +there. + +3714. Therefore, in settling, there is universally a balance in +favour of the fishermen?-Universally the balance is in favour of +the fishermen, and sometimes they are pretty large balances. + +3715. Can you speak to the prices at which goods are sold in the +shop at Whalsay? Is it the market price in Lerwick?-We charge +the Lerwick prices at Whalsay, with a small addition to cover the +expenses of transit. + +3716. What may be the percentage of that addition?-I cannot say; +it varies. Perhaps it would be 21/2 per cent. additional. The men +being free, we are desirous sell as low as possible, in order to +secure their custom, because they are very near Lerwick, and they +can perhaps supply themselves elsewhere. + +3717. You say in your statement, 'The Shetland fishermen have +been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great +mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending +to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland.' I +have no doubt that is quite true; but do you think they are equally +independent in character with other Scotchmen?-So far as I am +able to judge, they are. + +3718. Don't you think they are a little shy about speaking out their +minds to their employers?-I cannot say what they do with others, +but they speak pretty freely to us. + +3719. Do you think the Whalsay men would tell you if they desired +to be released from the condition in their tack obliging them to +fish for you, or that they would strike if they felt it to be an +obnoxious condition?-The Whalsay men have told me repeatedly +that they are far better off at present than they have ever been in +time past. They are not in debt to the fish-curer, and their rents are +well paid. + +3720. I presume you would not allow them to get very deep into +your debt at the shop?-We have never had occasion to restrict +their advances very much. We could not allow them to get +very deep; but, as yet, we have not had occasion to restrict their +advances. + +3721. Are the advances made to the fishermen during the course of +the season generally made by way of supplying them with goods at +the shop?-They can get any supplies they want at the shop, or +money either if they require it, during the course of the season. + +3722. If they want money, to whom do they apply for it?-To the +fish factor there. + +3723. What is about the extent of advances made to the fishermen +in the course of the year?-It varies very much. Some of them, I +suppose, have not 10s in the whole course of the year,-perhaps +they go and deal with some other person; while others may have +£5 or £6, or more. + +3724. You say that some have not 10s. of advances: do you mean +money advances?-They get any money they want. + +3725. But how much cash is advanced during the year by your fish +factor in Whalsay?-I have stated how much the produce came to, +and how much we paid in money at the end of the year. [Exhibits +statement.] + +3726. That brings out the amount of cash advanced during the year +to be about £362?-Yes. + +3727. So that the amount of advances in goods or on account +would come to about £920?-Yes; that was in 1870. I believe the +proportion of money is greater for the past year, because we paid +them a larger sum of money. + +3728. Would the amount of goods taken this year be less or greater +than in the previous year?-I think the goods would be less this +year, because the men, having made a very good fishing in the +previous year, had less occasion to take supplies from the shop; +and therefore I think we would be giving them more money in the +course of this year than we did formerly. + +3729. You think the result of the good fishing in the previous year +would be, that the men dealt less at your shop?-They had no +occasion to take so large supplies. + +3730. How were they supplied with meal and other necessaries?- +They had better crops, and did not require them. + +3731. I thought you said that was owing to the good fishing?-To +the good fishing and the good crops. + +3732. You don't mean to say that they came oftener to Lerwick for +their provisions?-I cannot say how often they came to Lerwick. +They are quite at liberty to come here when they please. + +3733. But the fact that there was a good fishing would lessen the +amount of dealing at the shop?-There was a good fishing and a +good crop; they had got a large sum of money in the previous year, +and many of them very likely had that money beside them, except +what they had lodged in bank; and they could buy for ready money +at the shop instead of entering it in the book + +3734 Then one effect of a good fishing is, that the men buy at your +shop for ready money rather than by running up an account?-Yes, +frequently + +3735. Do you know whether many of the fishermen in Whalsay +and elsewhere have large deposits in savings banks or other +banks?-I believe there are very large sums at their credit in the +Union Bank, which has been established longest here. + +3736. Of course you have no personal knowledge of that?-No; +but if you had power to command a sight of the bank books, I +believe the sum would astonish you. + +3737. There is no savings bank here except the post office savings +bank?-No. + +3738. The Burra men are employed by you in the home fishing, +and those of them who choose in the Faroe fishing?-Yes. + +3739. But in Burra, as in Whalsay, the men are bound to fish for +you in the home fishing?-The men are bound to deliver us their +home fish. That fishing, however, is carried on now only to a very +small extent. Most of the men in Burra are otherwise employed. + +3740. How many boats have you engaged in the home fishing from +Burra?-They vary. There are a few boats that fish in spring, and +there are a few men [Page 90] who stop at home all summer, and +fish then; so that at one time there are a good number, and at +another time not half so many. + +3741. Are these Burra men under an obligation which forms part +of their verbal tack?-The men who stop at home are under an +obligation, at least it is an understood thing that they are to deliver +their fish to us. + +3742. Is there any written obligation to that effect?-No; but in +point of fact they could deliver them nowhere else, because we +have the stations on the islands. + +3743. Could they not deliver them for salting and curing in +Scalloway?-Yes; but Scalloway is such great distance from the +curing stations, that they are much better off as they are. + +3744. Are there no curing stations at Scalloway?-There are; but +Scalloway is such a great distance from Burra, that the men could +not go there every time they came from the fishing. + +3745. Is the island of Trondra in your hands?-Yes; it belongs to +the Earl of Zetland. + +3746. Have you a curing station there?-No. + +3747. Do the Trondra people deliver their fish at Burra or +Scalloway?-I don't know if there are any Trondra people fishing +for us. They deliver at Scalloway any fish they get. + +3748. There is no obligation upon them to fish for you?-No. + +3749. And, in point of fact, you think they don't do it?-We get +none of their fish at Burra. It is possible they may deliver some to +our men at Scalloway. + +3750. Was there an obligation signed by some of the Burra men +some years ago, binding them to fish for you?-Some years ago, +after a series of bad crops and bad fishings, the islands had got +largely in our debt, and in order to get the sons to help the fathers +to pay their rents, which we were bound to pay for them every +year, we got them to sign an obligation. + +3751. Was that about eight years ago?-I think it would be about +that time. It was about the time when we were getting a renewal +of the lease. However, that obligation was found to be unworkable +and was laid aside, and has never been acted on. + +3752. What were its terms?-I cannot recollect very well. The +fishers at home were to be bound to deliver their fish to us. + +3753. Some of the men did sign it?-Some of them did sign it; but +some of them refused, and it was laid aside. + +3754. Does the document exist?-Very likely it does. It is +probably somewhere in the office, if it has not been destroyed; but +immediately after it was signed it became quite a dead letter. + +3755. Were not some of the men fined for delivering some of their +fish elsewhere?-I have made a statement about that; but it was +not for delivering their fish elsewhere. + +3756. What men were so fined?-I think there were one or two of +them; but I don't remember their names. + +3757. Was Peter Smith one of them?-Very possibly. + +3758. Do you remember whether the money was returned to +him?-I think it was, so far as I remember. I think any fines that +were imposed were returned. + +3759. You found that the exaction of this fine did not tend to make +the men more willing to deliver their fish to you?-The fines were +not imposed for not delivering their fish. The object of the fines +was to compel the sons to assist the fathers. + +3760. But the fine was imposed upon the father?-Yes. + +3761. Then the obligation we have been speaking of was an +obligation binding not only the tenant, but also the members of his +family?-Yes. So far as I know, none of the tenants delivered any +of their fish to us except what we get at present. Any of the +tenants who are fishing in small boats on the coast deliver all their +fish to us still. + +3762. Are you aware of fish being smuggled to Scalloway, and +sold to dealers there?-I am not. + +3763. If that were the case would you consider that you were +entitled to remove the men from their holdings in Burra?-There +are only a very few men who engage in the home fishing now. +The best of the fishermen are engaged fishing for other people at +Faroe. + +3764. It is only when a man actually does engage in the home +fishing that he is obliged to deliver his fish to you?-Yes. + +3765. If he chooses not to remain at home, or not to employ +himself in that fishing, there is no obligation upon him?-No. If +he chooses to remain at home, and employ himself fishing in small +boats on the coast, there is an obligation on him to deliver his fish +to us, but on all the other people there is no obligation, and most of +them fish to other people out of the island. I have mentioned in +my statement, that of the men engaged in the Faroe fishing, I think +only about one-fourth are employed by Hay & Co. + +3766. There is no allegation that the men are bound to engage to +you in the Faroe fishing, and you say there is no obligation upon +them to sell their farm produce to you?-We never interfere with +the farm produce. + +3767. Are you aware of cases in Shetland-I don't speak of your +own dealings alone, but of your own dealings and those of other +merchants-in which tenants are held bound in any way to sell +their farm produce, their cattle, or their ponies, to fish-curers who +are factors or tacksmen?-I am not aware of any such cases. It +may be the case, but not within my knowledge. + +3768. Is there any system of a kind of mortgage of the cattle in +security for debts at the shops of fish-merchants?-It is quite +possible that if man wants an advance he may promise to sell the +merchant or the factor, or whoever he is, a cow or other animal +at a certain season of the year, in order to repay him that advance; +but I don't know of any other mortgage of that kind in the country. + +3769. The mortgage may not be very much worth in law; but have +you known cases in which a fish-merchant, being the sole or +principal creditor of fisherman dealing at his store had so +mortgaged his cattle, and that it was marked as belonging to the +fish-merchant?-It is quite possible that may be done some cases, +but the landlord has a preference over such cattle, so that such a +mortgage would be of no value. A man may give a promise to sell +a cow two or three months hence, and on that promise get an +advance of a few pounds of money; but it depends entirely on the +man's promise whether the money is paid or not, because the +landlord can step in, if the tenant is in debt to him, and take his +animal. + +3770. That is, if the tenant owes the landlord anything and has not +enough to pay the landlord's claim?-Yes. + +3771. You don't know of any particular case of that sort?-I could +not mention any particular case. + +3772. And you don't know of fish-merchants or tacksmen who +are in the habit, to a large extent, of squaring their debts in that +way?-No; we don't do it. + +3773. The fishermen in Burra are supplied with goods at your shop +in Scalloway?-The statement I have given in contains an answer +to that question. They not confined to deal at our stores. They can +deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose. + +3774. But, in point of fact, they generally deal at your shop in +Scalloway?-They generally deal there, and in Lerwick too, if they +want anything. If they want money, they generally come here. + +3775. The Burra men deal at your shop on credit, and there is a +settlement with them once a year?-Yes; the same as with the +others. + +3776. Is the book there kept in the same way as at Whalsay?-In +the same way. + +3777. Is it kept in the same way as the books for your other +customers in Scalloway?-In the same way. Their supplies are +charged against them at the end of the year, and we bring the book +in here and settle with them. + +3778. Is there a separate book for the Burra men at [Page 91] the +Scalloway shop?-We keep a separate book for the Burra men's +accounts in Lerwick. + +3779. For their shop accounts?-For their shop accounts; and the +fish factor has a separate book, which he marks the fish he +receives from the men. + +3780. What is the purpose of keeping a separate book for the Burra +men here?-There are a good many names, and it is to keep them +apart from others. At the end of the season we may be settling +with them when the other books are in use in the office. + +3781. You settle with the Burra men at Lerwick, and not at +Scalloway?-Yes. + +3782. But the shopkeeper at Scalloway sends in his accounts here +before you settle with them?-Yes. The men call there and see +the state of their account when they like, and then we get in a list +of their debts to the shop. There is nothing entered to their credit +there, but a list of the advances they have got from the shopkeeper +at Scalloway is sent here. + +3783. Their credits are all kept here?-Yes. + +3784. Are your other fishermen in that quarter settled with here or +at Scalloway?-They are settled here, for the most part. + +3785. In this statement you have not told us anything about the +amount of balances generally paid to the Burra men?-I have not, +because we have not settled with them this year yet. I daresay, by +looking over the books, I could tell you what we paid them last +year and the years before. At this moment we are due the Burra +people extremely little, because all the men who have been fishing +in the smacks during the summer have been settled with, and got +their money; and for the people who stopped at home and fished +here, after we deduct their rents, we have very little money to pay +them. + +3786. You charge the rent in the account against them at Burra?- +Yes. + +3787. You do so because you are the tacksmen yourselves?-Yes. + +3788. Then, in general, does any money pass at all in settling with +the Burra men?-Yes; there are considerable sums in some cases. + +3789. In settling with those of them who are Faroe fishers do you +deduct the rent in their accounts also?-When any of the tenants +are fishing in our smacks, we deduct the rent from what they have +to receive. + +3790. Do those men who fish at Faroe get their supplies at the +Scalloway shop the same as the others?-They get their supplies +there or here, as they find convenient. + +3791. Have they generally an account in both shops?-Generally +they have, except where we have occasion to restrict their +advances. + +3792. But if a man has an account in both shops, might there not +be some difficulty in restricting his advance?-In that case we +close the account at Scalloway, and give the man what he requires +here; and then we can restrict his advances if we see it to be +necessary. + +3793. Have you often found it necessary, after bad fishing seasons, +to make considerable advances to men in the way of provisions?- +Yes, we have found that necessary, because the men could get +supplies from nowhere else, and we were obliged to give them +meal and other things in order to keep their families alive. + +3794. Are you speaking of Burra and Whalsay, or of all your +fishing stations?-Most of the shops that we have in the country +are obliged to give large advances in the case of bad seasons. +Three years ago the crops were very bad; the people had not seed +to sow their land with; and we brought in a pretty large quantity of +seed-corn and potatoes, which we supplied to the people in Yell. + +3795. That was on the Gossaburgh estate, of which you are +tacksmen?-Yes; and they have since then paid it up in full. + +3796. Do you act in the same way with fishermen are not bound to +fish for you?-If they were under any engagement-if they signed +an obligation to deliver their fish to us-then we would do so. + +3797. Whether they were on an estate under your management or +not?-Yes. + +3798. Have you sometimes made such engagements with them?- +Occasionally we have. + +3799. Was that with individual men?-Yes, with individual men +when they wanted advances. + +3800. That is to say, at the end of the fishing season, when you +found on settling up that there was a balance against a man, and +that he continued to want further supplies from your shop, you +would enter into an engagement with him to fish to you next +year?-Yes. + +3801. Would that engagement be a verbal one?-Sometimes +written and sometimes verbal. + +3802. In that case the advances would be in the form of goods +supplied at your shops?-Both money and goods. We would give +him money if he asked for it. + +3803. But the bulk of the advances would be in goods?-No. +Money would frequently be given when they wanted a special +advance. + +3804. In a case of that kind, are your shopkeepers instructed to +make the advance to the men in either way?-If a man wants an +advance of £1 or £2 we make it to him ourselves, and the people +when they want goods, go to the shop for them. + +3805. At what time are these advances generally made?-During +the winter or the spring seasons, before the fishing begins again. + +3806. And during the autumn, before the settlement for the years +fishing has come round?-Yes. They frequently get money during +the summer. + +3807. I suppose the settlement with your men in Lerwick takes +place in the office and not in the shop?-Yes, in the office. + +3808. When the men get their payments in money, are they at +liberty to go where they like to spend them?-Yes; they get the +money in their hands, and go away from us with it. + +3809. Whether they are Burra men or Whalsay men or +strangers?-Yes. We settle with the Whalsay men at Whalsay; +but all the money that we give at the settlements here, the men +go away with it out of the office. + +3810. Is the settlement with the Whalsay men made in the shop?- +No; they are settled with at the manor-house at Simbister. + +3811. Where is the settlement made at Gossaburgh?-The +settlement with the Yell tenants is made at the house of West +Sandwick. + +3812. Have you shops in Yell?-None. + +3813. The fishermen there, however, are bound to deliver their fish +to you?-Some of the Yell fishermen deliver their fish in summer +at Fetlar, and others again deliver them at Northmavine. + +3814. What is the extent of the Gossaburgh estate?-I suppose the +rental is about £400 or £500, and I think the number of tenants is +about 120. + +3815. Are the whole of these men bound to fish to you alone?- +Not the men sailing out of the country. It is only the men +remaining at home and fishing there during the summer who are +bound to fish to us. + +3816. Who is the proprietor of the Gossaburgh estate?-Mrs. +Henderson Robertson. + +3817. In speaking of the rental, you refer to the rent paid by +Messrs. Hay & Co. as lessees, which is about £500 a year?-Yes; I +think it is between £400 and £500. + +3818. What will the average rental of the holdings be?-Perhaps +from 30s. to £5 or £6. There is one party who pays £65 or £70, but +he is not a fisherman. + +3819. What is the gross rental paid to you from the estate?-It will +be seen from the valuation roll. I could not tell the gross rental +off-hand, because it is a peculiar tack. We pay a certain fixed sum +for it, and then we pay all the burdens on the estate, and it varies +somewhat. It is more in one year than in another. + +3820. Are the tacks under which you hold Burra and Gossaburgh +in writing?-Yes, they are both written tacks. + +3821. Do these tacks contain any reference to your [Page 92] +rights with regard to fishing?-The tacks state that we are at +liberty to let the lands, remove the tenants, and take new tenants, +and that we are to pay certain sums for the ground. I don't +remember whether there is anything specially mentioned about the +fishings. I think in the Burra tack there is something about them it +gives us right to all the fishings in the island. I am not sure that +the original proprietor had not a Crown charter which gave him a +right to the whole fishings, including oyster fishings and others; +and I think we have the whole of these rights. + +3822. Perhaps you will show me these two tacks, so that I may +make an excerpt of any clause relating to the fishings?-I will do +so. There is no clause in either lease relating to the obligation of +the tenants to deliver their fish to the tacksmen. + +3823. You say in your statement 'We have other curing stations at +different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and +boys from all quarters during the summer months:' that refers to +the home fishing?-To the home fishing solely. + +3824. There are curing stations at places quite separate from any +of the four properties you have been speaking of?-Yes. + +3825. Where are they?-We have a curing station at Dunrossness; +we have another station at Fetlar; and we cure to some extent at +Scalloway, and also at Lerwick. + +3826. At all of these stations have you shops from which you +supply the men?-We have a shop at Scalloway, and another here. +We have a factor at Fetlar, who supplies the fishermen with what +they require; and we have a man at Dunrossness, who keeps +supplies there also. + +3827. At Dunrossness have you ever come into conflict with Mr. +Bruce's people with regard to the sale of goods or the purchase of +fish?-I think not. + +3828. Is it understood there that you are to purchase from people +who are not upon his lands?-We purchase from people who are +not upon his lands, that is, from the Simbister or any other tenants, +who are quite free. + +3829. But not from the Sumburgh tenants?-They never offer us +any of their fish, and we never ask them. We never interfere with +Mr. Bruce's fishings. + +3830. Do you ever purchase from the Quendale tenants?-No, I +think not. + +3831. You say fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are +paid by shares. When they are secured in monthly wages, there is +no inducement for exertion. That is with reference to the Faroe +fishing?-Yes. + +3832. Do you form that opinion from your experience of both +systems?-Yes, because on some occasions we have had to pay +wages to the men; but that has been very seldom. + +3833. I think in another part of your statement you say that, when +an agreement to pay monthly wages has been made, the men +sometimes, if the price has been high, have repudiated their +bargain, and asked to be paid according to the current price at the +end of the season?-Yes. + +3834. Has that happened often?-No; very seldom. The men +generally prefer to go on shares. There have been one or two +occasions when we had to guarantee them monthly wages in order +to induce them to go out to the fishing, but at the same time, if +their share of the fish exceeded that monthly wage, they got it. + +3835. Is it your opinion that it would be a wholesome change if the +men were paid by wages, or that it is better for both parties that +things should remain as they are?-I don't think it would be a +good change to pay them by wages. + +3836. Would it not tend to form more provident and careful habits +among the fishermen if they knew exactly how much they were to +receive?-I think it would be very much against the fishings if +such a system were adopted. The men would not get nearly so +many fish, and they would not earn so much money, if they were +paid by wages, as they do at present. Some of the men who are +fishing at the haaf earn as much £15 or £20 as during the summer, +and they would not get any one to pay them wages of that amount. + +3837. How much would that be per month?-Perhaps about £5 per +month. No one would engage them at that figure. + +3838. In the home fishing the boats generally belong to the +men?-I think, for the most part, they do. + +3839. Is it a common practice for the fish-curer to advance the +money for a boat, or to supply the boat to the men and receive +payment from them by instalments?-It is generally the +understanding, that if a crew get a new boat, they pay up for it in +three years. In some cases they are able to pay up for it in one year +when there is a good fishing. I may mention one case in +Dunrossness, the year before last, where six mem came to us and +wanted a boat and lines. We gave them the advance, fitted them +out, and supplied their families during the season, and at the end of +the season they had earned with that boat and lines £200. The +agreement was, that they were to pay for the boat in one year if +they could; and if not, they were to get credit for three years. They +paid up for this boat and lines clear, and had money to get at the +end of the season. + +3840. When an arrangement of that sort is entered into, is a certain +sum deducted from the men's earnings at the end of the year in +respect of the boat?-There is an account kept for the boat. If they +pay one-third share the first year, it is taken off as a whole, and not +taken off each individual. + +3841. They are jointly and severally liable for the price of the +boat?-Yes; they have a company account. The boat is charged to +that account; and when they settle, there are two-thirds carried +down to the debit of each man, and the rest is paid up. + +3842. Then, in every case of that kind, there is a boat account +separate from the accounts of the individual members of the +crew?-Yes. + +3843. And if any of the men have gone away from the country, or +have got deep in debt before the boat is paid up, the other +members of the crew remain liable for the whole amount?-They +are liable in point of law, but it is very seldom they pay anything +beyond their own share. + +3844. When that comes to be paid out of the share of a man who +has an individual account, is his share of what remains due on the +boat generally entered to his debit in his own account each year?- +No, not separately. We keep an account against the boat and the +crew, and we give them credit for the whole of their fish when we +come to settle with them. Then we take off one-third the price of +the boat, along with the cost of any other supplies they may have +had in company, and divide the balance and enter it to each +separate man's credit, leaving two-thirds of the price of the boat at +the debit of the boat account. + +3845. The balance that remains in favour of the men after that +comes into their separate accounts?-Yes. + +3846. So that the boat account has a priority in the settlement over +the individual accounts of the men?-Yes. + +3847. Where such a boat account exists, is it the case that the +individual men are generally, or always, dealing at the shop of the +merchant who advances the boat?-I cannot say. The men are at +liberty to deal where they like. Getting an advance of a boat does +not compel them to take their supplies from the same merchant. + +3848. But is there any understanding or practice according to +which the men do deal at the merchant's shop?-I cannot say. +The men that we deal with are at liberty to take their supplies +either from us or from any other shop in the country. + +3849. Are your shopkeepers allowed to make any intimation to the +men that they are expected to deal at your shop?-They are never +told to do so, and they never do it, so far as I am aware. + +3850. Would they be checked or reprimanded if they did it?-We +never had occasion to reprimand them, because we never said a +word about it ourselves. Our shopkeepers never did it by our +orders, and I don't think they ever did it of their own accord. + +[Page 93] + +3851. In agreeing to open a boat account with men in that way, is +any preference given to men who deal at your shops, or who +undertake to deal there? Would you more readily agree to open an +account with such men than with others who did not deal with +you?-That is never taken into consideration at all. + +3852. But when a boat account is opened, are they always +expected to deliver their fish to you until it is paid off?-That is +always part of the understanding, that they shall fish to us as long +as they're due a balance on the boat. + +3853. And when the balance is paid, then they are free?-Yes; +they are at liberty to renew the agreement with us, or to go +anywhere else they like. + +3854. Do you find that, at the end of the period when the balance +is paid off, the men are generally ready to continue to fish for +you?-Sometimes they fish for us, and sometimes they shift and +go to another curer. + +3855. There is no general rule about that?-No. + +3856. You say in your statement, that the men are quite safe with +the arrangement to get the current price at the end of the season for +their fish: 'They know the competition between curers all over the +islands is so keen, that they are secured to get the highest possible, +price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little +advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more +boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with +limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the +trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave +nothing to themselves, and the end come to grief:' is that a +common thing in the islands?-It is not common, but it does +happen occasionally. + +3857. Has that any connection with a statement which was made +in the evidence given in Edinburgh, about the necessity which a +merchant was under, to have a large amount of bad debts in order +to succeed in business?-I daresay it has. + +3858. I suppose that refers to the same sort of dealers men with +limited capital, who push their business by giving the fishermen an +advantage in that way, and who were said to come to grief from +having too few bad debts?-Yes. + +3859. Do you suppose the gentleman who gave evidence to that +effect, and which you have criticised in another part of your +statement, was referring to the same cases that you are there +referring to?-I am not referring to any particular case in that +statement. It is only afterwards that I mention evidence. In this +case, I say that a man with small capital who gives too large +advances to the fishermen, which they cannot repay, is very likely +to be unable to pay his own creditors. + +3860. When you speak of him giving too large advance, do you +mean in the shape of supplies of going out of his shop?-Yes; and +giving too many gratuities to the fishermen, so that they have all +the profit, and he has none. + +3861. What do you mean by gratuities to fishermen?-Fees, and +other inducements to fish, besides the regular current price. + +3862. Is that both in the home and Faroe fishing?-Not in the +Faroe fishing. I refer to the home fishing only. + +3863. Then in the home fishing there is sometimes an arrangement +to give fees to the fishermen in addition to the current price?- +Yes. For instance, the skipper of a boat, being the most +experienced man of the crew, generally gets a small fee; and there +are other gratuities paid, which differ at different stations. + +3864. These gratuities are given in order to secure the fish of a +large number of fishermen?-Yes. + +3865. Have you cases in your mind at present, which these +gratuities, and the excessive advances in goods, have led to the +failure of people entering into the trade for the first time?-In +making this statement I had particular cases before my mind; but +such do happen occasionally through the islands. + +3866. You don't think the existence of such cases inconsistent +with your denial of Mr. Walker's statement with regard to bad +debts?-I have referred to his statement on that subject, simply for +the purpose of pointing out the absurdity of it. + +3867. Of course if you speak of the debts as being absolutely bad +debts, the statement is absurd, as you point out but suppose that a +man starting business in Shetland gets a number of fishermen into +his debt to a certain amount, has he not a hold, over these +fishermen, so as to compel them to deliver their fish to him in +future?-He has no hold over them whatever for that purpose. He +has just this hold over them that if he chooses, he can go into the +court with them and prosecute them; but after they have fished to +him for some time, and find that they can get no further supplies +from him, they are very likely to go away and offer their services +to some one else. + +3868. But suppose that at the end of the season a merchant has 100 +fishermen who are in debt to him to the extent of £2 or £3 or £4, +and whom he can prosecute at once for recovery of that money, do +you think the fishermen have no inducement to continue to deliver +their fish to him, rather than allow him to prosecute?-It may +induce some of them to do so, but some of them may be frightened +and leave him, in case he were to prosecute them. We generally +find that when a man gets into debt, to us, we never see him again. + +3869. Do you mean in debt to that extent, or to larger extent?- +When he gets into our debt to the extent of £6 or £8, he very soon +leaves us, and we never see him again. In many cases they know +very well that the prosecutor might have to pay the law expenses +and would get no return. + +3870. May that not arise from the fact that you deal more leniently +with your debtors than other merchants?-I don't think we do. I +think other merchants carry on their businesses on much the same +principles as ourselves. + +3871. Does it not strike you that the statement you are +contradicting about the value of bad debts to a Shetland business, +although it might be exaggerated in the terms which it is put, has +nevertheless a certain amount of truth in it?-I know quite well, +that if a man with small capital lays out that capital in buying +goods to supply fishermen, and delivers these goods to the +fishermen, and then has to pay for the goods and has nothing to +pay them with, he must shut his shop and become bankrupt. + +3872. But if he has sufficient money to carry on for a little,-or if +he gets his bills renewed for a certain time, and manages to get the +fishermen bound to him by the fact that they are in his debt, and by +the fear of being prosecuted for that debt,-may he not have a very +good season next year, and be able to get a large supply of fish, +which he can sell at a profit, and so gradually make his way?- +Fish are not like ready money. You may have a pretty large +number of men fishing to you, but you cannot convert their fish +into money until perhaps the end of twelve months. You only get +your fish sold once a year, and you won't get any person in the +south to give you goods on credit for twelve months. Besides, a +fish-curer must always have a certain amount of debts standing in +his books against fishermen, and stock which he cannot make +available. + +3873. Do you mean shop goods?-Yes, he must have shop goods, +and he must have debts in his books to a pretty large amount +before he can carry on extensively. + +3874. I am assuming always that the man, although his capital may +be limited, has a certain amount of capital which will carry him on +for a couple of years?-Well, then the end would be sure to come. + +3875. But he may manage to make a good business, and to carry it +on successfully; if he gets a certain number of fishermen under an +obligation to fish for him; or if he can induce them by offering +premiums and gratuities to fish for him rather than for others,- +can he not?-But in the meantime he is giving them supplies; and +while they may have got into his debt to the extent of £5 or £6 +each man this year, on the understanding [Page 94] that they are to +fish to him next year and pay off their debt, yet when he comes to +settle with him he may find that they have not only not paid up +their old debt, but that there is something more added to it, as he +has been giving them supplies all the time. + +3876. But, in a case of that sort the fish-merchant will probably try +to keep the supplies which he gives to his people down to as low a +point as possible; and if the season has been a good one for +agricultural produce, they may not require very extensive supplies +in the second season?-Perhaps so; but generally men who have +got into debt the first year, require supplies afterwards; and if you +stop the supplies at any time after the fishing has begun, the man +stops work, and when one man in a boat's crew stops work it +throws the whole idle. + +3877. Therefore you think the fact of men getting into your debt +has no effect in securing their services as fishermen to you for the +future?-No. It is a certain way of throwing away money, and +getting rid of their services. + +3878. Have you had any experience as to the mode of settling with +men who go to the herring fishing?-Yes. + +3879. Is your firm engaged in that fishery?-It has been quite a +failure here for the last two or three years. + +3880. What is the mode of dealing with the fishermen there? Is it +the same system that is pursued at Wick?-The herring fishing +here, for the most part, is carried on in the same small open boats +as are used at the haaf. At Wick they have large boats for the +purpose. Here each man has a certain number of nets of his own, +and they use their own boats and nets. + +3881. When is the bargain made about the division of the produce; +or are the men engaged upon wages?-For the past few years the +herring fishing here has been so trifling, that scarcely any person +took the trouble to make a bargain with the men about it. If they +caught any herrings and delivered them, they generally made a +bargain for them about the time they commenced. + +3882. Were they to get so much per cran?-Yes. + +3883. Is that the same practice that is followed at Wick?-The +same practice, I think. At Uyea Sound I think there were as many +as sixty small boats that went to that fishing; but for the last two or +three years they have not cured a single cran of herrings, so that +the thing was not worth our attention. + +3884. Are you aware what the general arrangement between the +fishermen and the curer in the herring fishing is-I don't speak of +Shetland alone, but at other places?-I understand the boats and +nets at Wick and other places belong to the fishermen; but the men +there are largely indebted to the fish-curers, who have to make +large advances to them before they can carry on the fishing. + +3885. But the bargain made at the beginning of the season is for a +price per cran?-Yes. + +3886. And that is due when?-It is not settled, believe, until the +end of the fishing. + +3887. But the price is fixed at the beginning?-Yes. + +3888. Would not that be a more advantageous arrangement for all +parties in the home fishing or in the Faroe fishing than that which +at present exists?-I don't think the fishermen here would agree to +it. We have on several occasions made an agreement with +individuals of both descriptions of crews, at the beginning of the +season, to give them a certain price for their fish; and if it +happened, as it frequently does, that the price rose towards the end +of the season, we had, when we came to settle with them, to pay +them at the increased price. + +3889. You have already mentioned that; but, assuming that the +fishermen would agree to it,-and I have no doubt you could +compel them to agree to it if there was a bargain to that effect,- +would it not be a more reasonable and wholesome arrangement +altogether for both parties?-We would certainly be willing to +agree to it, and I think the other fish-curers would, and take their +chance. + +3890. In that case you would take your chance of rise or fall in the +market?-Yes. + +3891. And there would be none of the fishermen but what would +have some idea, as the season went on, of how much his earnings +would be?-So they would; but if our fishermen had made such an +arrangement, and they came to know that other men were getting +higher price from other curers at the end of the season, it would +make our men dissatisfied, and we would have to throw our +agreement aside. If we did not do that, our men would leave us, +and not fish for us another year. + +3892. Do you mean that that arrangement could not be entered into +by any individual fish-curer unless there was a general +arrangement to do so among the curers in the islands?-Yes; the +whole of the curers would require to agree to it. + +3893. But, would it not be more advantageous all parties, on the +whole? I think you say that in your opinion it would be?-We +would be very well pleased to have a fixed agreement at the +beginning of the season, and very well pleased also to pay the men +altogether in cash when we settled with them. In that way we +would keep clear of bad debts. + +3894. Would not such an arrangement obviate the objection you +have to a change on the ground that the fisherman's exertions +would be less if he had no inducement to work,-because, if that +arrangement were carried out, the fisherman would be induced to +use all his exertions in order to get as large a take of fish as +possible?-He has the same inducement now. + +3895. That is so; but at present he does not know until the end of +the season how much he is to get for his fishing during the year?- +They are generally satisfied that they will get the full value of the +article. + +3896. But the policy of the Legislature in some other departments +seems to be, that the working man shall know week by week how +much his earnings are, and how much he is spending upon goods: +could not that be done here?-No; it is impossible here, because +one week, or one fortnight, or perhaps three weeks, may elapse in +the summer when a man does not earn one sixpence. + +3897. But if there was some system of paying fixed price of so +much per cran or so much per cwt. for fish delivered, the +fisherman would be able to calculate more nearly what his income +was going to be during the year than he is now, and be able to +regulate his expenditure accordingly?-The price of fish has +varied very little for many years, and a fisherman can know pretty +nearly what he is earning. The following is a statement of the +prices that have been paid for the last six years; from which you +will see that the variation has been extremely small. + +PRICES of Fresh Fish paid at Burra, compared with + the Rates paid at other Stations in Shetland, for + six years, 1865 to 1870 inclusive. + +YEAR BURRA ISLANDS OTHER PLACES + Spring Summer Summer + Ling Cod Ling Cod Ling Cod + s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. +1865 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 6 6 6 +1866 8 0 7 6 8 0 7 6 8 6 7 6 +1867 6 0 7 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 +1868 6 0 6 6 6 6 5 0 6 6 5 0 +1869 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 +1870 7 0 6 6 7 3 6 0 7 3 6 0 + +3898. Then, upon the whole of that matter we have been speaking +of, you don't think the introduction of a system similar to that +which prevails in the Wick herring fishing would be beneficial +either to the one side or the other, although you would be willing +to adopt it?-We would be quite ready to adopt it. + +[Page 95] + +3899. But, as a matter of opinion, you don't think it would be +advantageous?-As far as my own opinion goes, I do not think it +would be in any way advantageous either to the fish-curers or to +the fishermen. + +3900. You have a few sentences in your statement with regard to +the hosiery trade, in which you say you don't believe it would pay +the expenses and servants wages: is that your opinion?-Yes; if we +were to buy for ready money. + +3901. What is your reason for forming that opinion?-The people +get so much higher prices for their articles when they take goods, +that we could not buy for ready money and compete with the +people in the trade. + +3902. Do you deal in the same goods as those merchants who deal +in hosiery?-Yes, to a certain extent, but not to such a large extent +as them. They keep goods for the purpose of exchanging for +hosiery, while we only keep some for supplying the fishermen. + +3903. Are you in a position to say whether your prices for tea and +soft goods are higher or lower than the prices of the persons who +purchase hosiery?-I think tea and groceries and other things, sell +for very much the same all over town. + +3904. Is it the same thing with soft goods and cotton?-Yes, I +think they are very much the same. + +3905. If hosiery were paid for in cash, do you not think the people +might come to your shop and buy goods to greater advantage than +they get them for at present?-I suppose they would go to any +place in town where they got the goods best and cheapest. I have +said in my statement, we would be quite ready to buy the hosiery +ourselves for cash; but I believe we would get a very small portion +of the trade, because, when the people were getting perhaps 1s. in +cotton or in other things for an article, we could not afford to give +them any more than 9d. or 10d. in cash, and therefore they would +not come to us. + +3906. But suppose they were to get 9d. or 10d. in cash, would they +not be able to buy their cotton goods to greater advantage?-I +don't think it. They could not go to the hosiers' shops and buy +cotton goods marked at 1s. for anything less than that. They might +perhaps get a small discount, but it would be very little. + +3907. Does it not appear to you that the practice of paying in kind +must raise the prices of the goods that are so given in exchange for +hosiery?-There are a great many people both here and throughout +the country engaged in the trade; and when the girls have articles +to sell, I suppose they find out the shops where they can make the +best bargain, and go there, so that there is competition amongst the +hosiery merchants as well as in other trades. + +3908. Do you think it is the case that the profit charged upon +drapery goods in Lerwick is greater than it is in other places, in +consequence of the practice of purchasing hosiery with goods?-I +am unable to give an opinion upon that, because I cannot say what +are the profits upon goods elsewhere; but I believe the difference +between our prices and the prices charged by the hosiers for the +same class of goods would be found to be very little if it was +examined into. + +3909. You are not aware that you sell cheaper, than the merchants +who purchase hosiery?-I don't think we sell very much cheaper +than they do. + +3910. Do you think you sell any cheaper?-Not very much. + +3911. Did the obligation which was entered into eight years ago by +the Burra men refer to the home fishing only, or was there any +obligation in it with regard to the Faroe fishing too?-I think it +referred to the home fishing chiefly. + +3912. And not to the Faroe fishing?-It speaks for itself. + +3913. Can you show it to me?-I think I can. I have not seen it for +several years, but it must be somewhere in the office. If I can get +it, I will be ready to show it. + +3914. Is it not the case that the supply of men for the Faroe fishing +is now generally sufficient without any such obligation, and that +sometimes there is an excess in the supply of men who are willing +to go to that fishing?-No; on the contrary, the men are very +scarce and it is difficult to get the smacks manned up. I question +very much whether we shall be able to get them all manned up this +year. + +3915. What is the cause of their reluctance to go to that fishing?- +They made a bad fishing last year, and they are very unwilling to +go again. + +3916. Did the liberty money or fines which were imposed in Burra +apply at all to tenants refusing to go to the Faroe fishing?-I think +not. These fines were imposed with the view of getting the sons to +assist their parents who were in debt, and to enable them to pay +their rents, by making their earnings come through our hands. +When the people went elsewhere, their earnings did not come +through our hands, and we had not that check upon them. + +3917. Are you quite certain the fines had nothing to do with the +Faroe fishing at all?-It is many years since that I can scarcely say, +and the Faroe fishing has not been carried on for many years. +Perhaps that attempt was made by us about the time when the +Faroe fishing commenced; but it was with the view of keeping the +sons at home, and to enable their fathers to remain in the islands +and to pay their rents, because the sons usually went away in +summer, and remained a burden on their parents during the winter. + +3918. Do you remember whether at any time there was a proposal +on the part of the Burra islanders to rent the island from the +landlord directly?-I heard there was such a proposal. + +3919. In what form was the proposal made?-It never came +through my hands; but I understand the men wrote to Mr. Mack, in +Edinburgh, who acted for the proprietors, offering him a higher +rent than we had paid before. + +3920. How long ago was that?-I could not condescend on the +number of years. It was about the time that our tack was out. + +3921. That would be about the time when the obligation you spoke +of was suggested or entered into?-I think it was perhaps about the +same time. + +3922. That offer was refused?-Yes. Mr. Mack knew very well, +that while some of the tenants would pay their rent punctually, +others, when left to themselves, would have nothing to pay it +with when the rent time came round, and of course he would +not treat with them. He thought it better to get a fixed sum, +payable half-yearly, which the tenants could not guarantee him. +The rent of Burra is paid by us half-yearly, one half at Whitsunday +and the other half at Martinmas; while the tenants, of course, if +they were left at liberty, would only pay once a year. + +3923. Is it the usual practice in Shetland to pay rent only once a +year?-Yes; to pay it at Martinmas, + +3924. That arises from the fact that the tenants generally depend +upon the produce of their fishing for the money with which to pay +their rent?-Yes; they realize their earnings about that time. + +3925. Is it the case that the inducement to your firm to lease Burra +in the way you have explained, was mainly for securing to +yourselves the service of the fishermen?-We had had a lease of +Burra for a very long time, and had transactions with the people all +along, and they were due us a very considerable sum. They are not +due us so much now, but at that time they were due us a very +heavy sum; and if we had given up the tack, much of that money +would have been lost. That was one inducement to us to renew +our lease. + +3926. But did you expect to recoup yourselves merely by the rent +payable by the fishermen, or by their being obliged to fish for +you?-By their being able to pay their debts through the fishing. + +3927. In other words, they would not have been so likely to have +continued to fish for you if you had not remained the tacksmen?- +If we had not remained the tacksmen, the island would have been +let on tack to some one else, and they would have taken our place. + +3928. Do you mean that a lease would probably have [Page 96] +been given to some other fish-merchant?-Yes; there is +no inducement to any one else to take a tack of Burra. + +3929. Is that because it is the general practice in Shetland for the +landlord or the tacksman to be entitled to receive the fish?-No; +but the tack-duty of Burra is so near the gross rental, that there +would be no inducement to a person to take the island on tack, and +to collect the rents and pay them over to the proprietor. + +3930. You say that very few people in Burra engage in the home +fishing now?-Yes; comparatively few. + +3931. So that the Burra islands cannot be so profitable an +investment for your firm as formerly?-It is not. + +3932. Does the gross rental from it exceed the tack-duty by any +considerable sum?-No; only by a very small sum. + +3933. How much?-Unless I had the rental here, I could not speak +definitely; but I could show you the gross rental of Burra, and I can +tell you the tack-duty afterwards. + +3934. Can you do the same with regard to Gossaburgh?-Yes. + +3935. Is there any practice in the home fishing of selling the +smaller fish without passing them through the books; that is, the +small fish caught near the shore at Scalloway, or elsewhere on the +coast?-There are haddocks and small fish caught there; and +through the winter the men just take them into Scalloway every +day as they catch them, and sell them for goods or money as they +choose. + +3936. These transactions don't pass through your books?-No; we +don't see what fish of that kind have been purchased, except from +the factor's book at the end of the year. We then see how much +fish he has purchased from all quarters. + +3937. The factor purchases these fish, and pays for them in such +goods as the men may want at the time?-Yes; on the spot. + +3938. These are separate transactions, and are settled at once?- +Yes. + +3939. In that case, is the price for the fish higher or lower than in +any of your other dealings with the fishermen?-I think that, +within the last few years it has generally been less, where they +settled at once, than it came to be at the end of the season, when +we came to arrange the men's accounts. + +3940. How does that happen?-Because generally at the end of the +season the price comes up, and people buying fish on chance are +not inclined to give the same price for them which they would give +at the end of the season, when they know what they are worth. If +we buy fish from the men just now, we cannot tell what they will +realize in summer, when they are dry and sent to market. + +3941. Then, if the fish-merchant were to pay for all his fish as they +were delivered, would that have a tendency to make him more +cautious about giving a high price to his fishermen?-I think it +would. + +3942. Do you think that men curing their own fish would be at a +great disadvantage as compared with large curers?-I think they +would, because they have no means for curing. + +3943. You are aware, I suppose, that that is one of the statements +made by the fishermen, when they come forward with complaints +about the existing system: that they want to have liberty to cure +their own fish, and dispose of them in the market as they please?- +I have heard so. For some time, in Dunrossness, the men did cure +their own fish, but they never could make them in a marketable +state. They were always objectionable, and they never could bring +so high a price in the market as fish prepared by regular curers. +If each boat's crew were to cure their own fish, they would be +at a great disadvantage, because they have not the means of +curing them properly: they have no vats, no covers, no mats, and +no qualified curers for the purpose. They would likely employ +children for that purpose, and members of their own family. + +3944. When the men cure their own fish, how is that generally +done?-I suppose they cure them in turns, and turn them out on +the beach until they are dried. They are often very insufficiently +salted, or over-salted; and when they are dry, they are not fit for +the market. + +3945. In your operations you have a complete apparatus for the +purpose?-Yes; and we require qualified men-people who +understand the process of curing-to attend to them. + +3946. Therefore, in your opinion, a fisherman curing his own fish +would realize a much less price for them than you could give +him?-Yes; and very often they would be altogether in an +unmerchantable state. + +3947. You are still factor on the Simbister estate?-Yes. + +3948. Part of that estate, in the neighbourhood of Channerwick, +was at one time let to Robert Mouat?-Yes. + +3949. I believe he had right under his lease to receive delivery of +all the fish caught by the tenants?-No. The lease expressly states, +that if the fishermen deliver their fish to him, he is bound to pay +them the current price of the country. The expression is, 'If the +fishermen deliver them;' that is all that is said about it. + +3950. Is the lease in your hands?-Yes. + +3951. You will show it to me, in order that I may take an excerpt +of that clause?-Yes. + +3952. Do you remember the case of a John Leask, a fisherman +at Channerwick, whom Mouat had threatened to turn out of his +farm, and who came to you some time about March 1870 in +consequence of that threat?-I don't remember that. I don't know +the man; but it is possible he may have come to me. There were +two or three of them who come to me complaining about their +treatment by Mouat. I showed them the clause in the tack, and +told them that if they fished to him he was bound to pay them the +current price of the country, but that I saw nothing in the tack to +compel them to deliver their fish to him. + +3953. Were you aware that for many years previously the tenants +in that district had been under the idea that they were bound to +fish for the tacksman?-I had no concern with it before I got the +factorship, three years ago. It is only three years since I was +appointed factor. + +3954. Who was your predecessor?-Mr. Bruce generally settled +with the tenants himself, or Mr. Spence. + +3955. Is it consistent with your own knowledge that there was such +an understanding upon that part of the Simbister estate?-The men +told me that Mouat insisted on getting their fish; that is all I know +about it. + +3956. You don't know of it yourself, except from these +applications which were made to you by the men?-No; I had +nothing to do with Mouat or his tack previously. + +3957. Did you communicate with Mouat in consequence of the +statements the fishermen made to you?-I don't remember that I +communicated with him in writing, but I may have told him that +the men were complaining about being forced to fish to him. + +3958. Did you also tell him that he was not entitled to require them +to fish to him?-It is quite possible I told him that, but I had very +few conversations with him on the subject. + +3959. If there was such an understanding among the men, I +suppose it would be naturally enough accounted for by the fact +that in former times such obligations were usual or universal in +Shetland?-Perhaps it would be. + +3960. I presume such obligations were universal formerly?-I +think that formerly more of the proprietors cured their own fish +than is the case now. + +3961. But in the old times it was part of the tenant's duty to deliver +his fish to his landlord?-Yes. + +3962. And I fancy, that although you say fishermen are generally +free, yet any complaints that are made about them being bound +arise from the remains of that old system still prevailing?- +Perhaps so. + +3963. There is no doubt that there was such an understanding and +such an obligation formerly?-No. + +3964. And in one or two cases there is such an obligation still?- +Yes; but I think there are very few of the proprietors now who +have any personal concern [Page 97] with their fishings. I think +there are only two or three of them. + +3965. Is Mr Bruce of Sumburgh one of the parties to whom you +refer?-Yes. + +3966. Does he purchase fish from the tenants on his estate?-He +purchases fish over all. I suppose the free men can come to him +and offer their fish as well as his own tenants. + +3967. Does any other proprietor in Shetland deal in fish in the +same way?-I think Mr. Grierson takes some part of his tenants' +fish, but only a part. + +3968. Are there any others?-I think in Unst, although the +proprietors are not actually fish-curers, yet their tenants fish to +parties whom they appoint., + +3969. Do you refer to Major Cameron?-Yes; and Edmonstone +too. Spence & Co. are the principal fish-curers in Unst. They are +lessees of Major Cameron's property, and, I think they receive fish +from Mr. Edmonstone's tenants also. + +. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the +fishings?-With reference to Burra, some years ago there was a +letter written to Mr. Mack, Edinburgh, who had the management +of the property for the Misses Scott, and a copy of it was sent to us +without a signature. It was a letter remarking, very strongly on the +management of Burra at the time; and as there may be something +said about it, I think it better to read it- + +'COPY LETTER to Mr. Mack, dated the 5th April 1869. + +'James S. Mack, Esq. + +'MY DEAR SIR,-Having had occasion to visit Burra officially a +few days ago, it was suggested to me to bring under your notice +some of those grievances of which the people complain, so that on +any renewal of the lease of the Islands taking place, you might be +able stipulate more advantageously for the poor people. + +'From the statements submitted to me, it would appear- + +'1st, That every householder is bound to pay one pound sterling +annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in +any Faroe-going fishing smack not belonging to the lessees or the +agent of the North Sea Company, otherwise he must remove from +the island or expel any such son from his home. + +'2d, That every tenant is bound to uphold, at his own expense, his +house and offices, and whenever required to remove, to leave +them in a state of good repair without any indemnification. + +'3d, That every fisherman is bound to deliver his fishings to the +lessees at such a price as they may be disposed to give. While +the price given is never <less> than one shilling per +hundredweight <below> the average paid for green fish in the +Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings +per cran below the market price is a common thing. + +'4th, That all oysters dredged must be delivered to the lessees +at Scalloway, under the penalty of expulsion; from house and +land; while the price paid in <goods> is one shilling per hundred, +other merchants paying in money <two shillings and sixpence> +per hundred. To evade this obligation a regular system of +deception is practised most offensive to the moral sense, and, as a +consequence, few of the oysters go into the hands of the lessees. + +'5th, And that every person on the Islands is bound not to sell any +article to a neighbour, under the penalty of instant expulsion +from the island. If, for example, you were living on the isle, any +fisherman who sold you a tusk or cod incurred the penalty of +expulsion. And as the system of barter is common in Shetland, if +any woman got in exchange for her hosiery tea or sugar or meal +from any merchant-as the lessees purchase no hosiery-she +exposes her family to the loss of house and land and expulsion +from the island if she is known to sell any of the goods she has +received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour, however +needful or anxious such neighbour may be to purchase for money +the article thus obtained. + +'These, as represented to me, form some of the grounds of +complaint against the system adopted and enforced by the lessees, +and, as grievances, they are felt all the more keenly because of the +perfect contrast which is found to exist between the Burra people +and surrounding Islanders. + +'In Trondra, under the hands of your lessees as factors, the people +can sell their labour and their goods to any buyer, so being +they pay the stipulated rent. + +'In Hildesay, Luija, and Havera the tenants fish, cure, and sell +to the proprietor or others at the average price of the county, +paying their rents in money. + +'The natural result of all this is the production of a feeling of +bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees +themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants +under them. + +'Not only are the obligations under which the Burra people bend, +introducing discord into families, restraining the energies of the +fishermen, and tending to a deeply rooted aversion towards the +lessees and their service, but producing systems of chicanery and +deceit subversive of moral principle and destructive of all efforts +in the proper training of the young. + +'Having had these matters forced upon my attention, I am +constrained to yield to the pressure, and submit them to your +consideration-notwithstanding my great personal respect for +the lessees-as requested, and that, in the hope that if you can +now or hereafter mitigate the evil under which the tenants groan, +in connection with the renewal of the lease, should such be +contemplated, you will cordially do so, and thus confer upon them +a lasting benefit. + +'Before closing, I may add that a suggestion was made to submit +the case to the consideration of the Fishery Board; but, as the +constitution and functions of that board are unknown to me, I +have deferred until obtaining any suggestion you may be pleased +to make for the future guidance of the poor people who, through +me, now solicit your sympathy and aid. + +'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the +hope that this confidential communication may receive your +kind consideration, while any suggestion you may make for the +improvement of the circumstances of the people will be cordially +welcomed by.' + +That letter was sent to us to report upon, and we made some notes +on it at the time, which I may read also- + +'NOTES on a Letter of Complaint addressed to, Mr. Mack, +S.S.C., +Edinburgh, dated 5th April 1869, as to the Management of the +Burra Islands under the present Tack. + +'The writer of this letter, if he is stating honestly the reports that he +has heard on his visits to Burra, seems to have considered it quite +unnecessary to inquire whether they were true or false before +committing them to paper; and apparently from a desire to make +out a case of oppression, he has been ready to receive all that +could help to it without separating the chaff from the wheat. + +'The first head is, that every tenant is bound to pay £1 per +annum for their sons who do not fish in vessels belonging to +the tacksmen, or those of the Fishery Company under their +management. In answer to this, it always been felt a great +hardship to pay rent year after year for old men who were deeply +indebted and earning little or nothing, but who had grown-up sons +living, at home in idleness all winter and going out of the Islands +to fish to strangers in summer. In order to get them to assist their +parents, intimation was given at the commencement of the tack +that such a charge would be made; but the result is, nothing has +been recovered from them, and several of the Lerwick fishing +vessels are manned up year after year with the best fishermen in +Burra, and their fathers remain hopelessly in debt. Perhaps Mr +Mack's correspondent would say, rather than impose such a +condition on the young men, we should roup up their fathers and +turn them out of the Islands as paupers, when the sons would be +compelled by law to assist them? + +'The second charge is, that the tenants are bound to uphold their +houses at their own expense. This complaint, unlike the others, is +quite correct, but the obligation is not felt by the tenants to be very +oppressive. [Page 98] Had the proprietors to pay the expense the +case would be different, and this, added to the public burdens, +would pretty well exhaust the whole rents. Such things, however, +are never considered by would-be philanthropists; and if matters +are made easy for the tenants, landlords may starve. Burra is not +the only place in Shetland, or out of it, where tenants are bound to +uphold their own houses. + +'Third, The tenants hold their farms on the express condition that +they shall deliver their fish to the factors; but it is quite untrue +that the price allowed 'is never <less> than one shilling per +hundredweight below the average price paid for green fish in the +Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per +cran below the market price is a common thing.' It is so far from +the truth as scarcely to be worth denial; and if the author of this +statement had been desirous to get at facts, he could without +difficulty have discovered that his informant, was practising a +deception on him, and that the Burra people had not this evil to +groan under. + +'The lessees have no hesitation in referring to the tenants, +themselves and to all other parties in the locality to whom the +circumstances are known. (See annexed note of the prices paid in +Burra and throughout Shetland for the last four years.) As to the +obligation on the tenants to deliver their fish to the factors-if they +were free to cure and sell as they chose, who would advance them, +with boats and fishing materials, and support their families during +the progress of the fishing? and would the proprietors get the rents +paid half-yearly as at present? or would they not rather find the +principal part of it standing as arrears in their books at the end of +the first year of freedom? And in the event of a short fishing or +bad crop (both frequent occurrences), without any one to assist +them till the return of better seasons, is it not evident, at least to +those who know about tenants in fishing districts, that the Burra +people would soon be little better than paupers? + +'Take the last year as an instance, when the heavy debt due by +the tenants to the lessees was increased upwards of £200. + +'Mr. Mack's correspondent should suggest a remedy for all these +evils, to be inserted in the next lease; or, as he seems to hint +that the Fishery Board may be induced to interfere and make +things straight now, it might be well to place the Islands under his +management for a year or two by way of trial. The lessees could +have no objections if the balances due to them were paid. + +'The oyster fishing is the fourth grievance, and the statements in it +are as little in accordance with facts as the rest. A few years ago, +when oysters came to be asked after for export, the scaaps in +Burra being of limited extent, an attempt was made to preserve +them for old men and others in the quarter who were unable to +prosecute the spring fishings; but in the course of a year or two +people came from Scalloway and other places and carried them +away in boat-loads. Seeing this, the factors told the Burra folks as +far as possible to secure the oysters for themselves, and they have +since been selling them in large quantities here and there without +let or hindrance, and it is said the supply is now about exhausted. +The tack conveys right to the whole fishings of the islands; and +had the matter been of any importance, the lessees might have +interdicted strangers, and limited the fishing for the benefit of the +tenants as first intended; but this cause of offence seems to be set +at rest now for the remainder of the lease. + +'The fifth statement appears to be, that people living in the Islands, +not fishing themselves (suppose ministers or the schoolmasters, as +these are the only parties in the Islands no way connected with the +fishings), cannot get fish to purchase for their own use. This is +quite absurd; no such restriction was ever heard of or imagined, +either by proprietors; tacksmen, or tenants. + +'And next, as to tea sellers, had not the Excise interfered to put +down the practice, every other house in Burra would have been a +shop in a small way to sell, not only tea, but other goods of a less +harmless description that had not always passed through a +custom-house. The tacksmen plead guilty to using their best +endeavours to assist in shutting up these shops, but they deny that +they have ever interfered with the Burra people directly or +indirectly in the sale of their cattle, hosiery, or produce of any +kind, except fish. Nor have they ever placed a shop in the Islands +for sake of the tenants custom, as they might have done, but left +them free to sell such produce and obtain their supplies where they +liked. + +'Trondra is referred to as a free island; but does Mr. Mack's +correspondent suppose the people are in better circumstances on +that account? And is he aware of the amount of arrears due to the +landlord? the tenants' earnings, in most cases, being spent as fast +as they are made. If the tenants in the other islands mentioned are +free also, it is not generally understood to be the case, and it +happens at this very time two tenants from these <free> islands +have taken farms, and are about to remove to the land of +bondage-Burra.' + + +3971. Is it the case that no other shop than yours is allowed in +Burra?-Yes. + +3972. You say that if shops were allowed there, every other +house would be used as a shop, and every person would set up +for selling tea and other goods?-Yes. What I referred to there +was, that the Burra people were in the habit of bringing home a +quantity of uncustomed goods from Faroe, and going round the +country and selling them elsewhere. We set our face against +that, and endeavoured to put it down. + +3973. Has there been a tendency to that in the Faroe fishing?-Not +lately; because some of the people were severely punished for it. + +3974. But formerly there was a tendency that way?-At first there +was a good deal done in that way, but now I don't think there is +anything. + +3975. You are not aware whether there is any smuggling in the +Shetland Islands at present?-Two or three years ago, there were +some of the crews severely punished for that, and I don't think +there is any smuggling going on now. + +3976. That was one of your reasons for prohibiting shops in +Burra?-Yes, it was one reason. + +3977. But the effect of that prohibition is that the people have to +go to Scalloway for goods?-They can go out of the island and get +their goods where they like. + +3978. Have you information at present from which you are able to +state what proportion of the Burra islanders keep accounts with +your shop in Scalloway?-Not at present. Their names may be in +the books, but they may get very small supplies from us, and they +can get supplies from other people as well. + +3979. There are other shops in Scalloway?-Yes; there are several +other shops there, and the men may take some goods from us and +some from others. + +3980. You say that now the oyster-beds there are really +exhausted?-Yes. Oysters were got in pretty large quantities in +Burra for a number of years, but now they are exhausted; they +were taken up in such quantities and sent away. + +3981. Are there any oysters got at Scalloway?-Very few. You +can get a hundred or half a hundred occasionally. + +3982. Are the men bound to deliver to your firm what oysters they +take up?-No; they have not been doing it. + +3983. Then they are free to dispose of the oysters to any person +they like?-They are free to dispose of them, but there are so few +to get now that it is no object to go in for that. + +3984. Have there been no disputes about oysters there?-Not that I +know of. The Scalloway people carried away a great many oysters +from Burra. + +3985. You have prepared a note showing the number of families in +Burra, and also the total sums paid in cash to your fishermen at +settlement at your other stations besides Whalsay?-Yes. The +number of families in Burra is 108. There are 318 males on the +island, and 867 females-in all 685. I may mention also that +[Page 99] of the Burra men who go to the fishing, in summer in +smacks, 19 went in vessels belonging to Hay & Co., and 73, in +vessels belonging to other owners. The cash paid to fishermen at +settlement at other stations besides Whalsay was as follows + 1870, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . £138 19 3 + " Dunrossness . . 521 13 111/2 + " North Roe . . 539 9 01/2 + 1871, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . 310 6 61/2 + " Dunrossness . . 395 19 3 + " North Roe . . 757 17 01/2 + +In the statement which I gave in, I stated that the arrears of +land-rent due on the Simbister estate were £57; but since the +statement was prepared, that sum has been lessened by £8, +which has been paid. + +3986. Do you pay your balances to the Whalsay men by cheques +on the Union Bank?-Not altogether. To some extent we pay +them in notes and gold and silver. + +3987. In 1870, you gave cheques to the amount of in sums of £5 +and upwards?-Yes. + +3988. Below that sum they would be paid in cash?-Yes. In the +past year I gave cheques to the amount of £465. + +3989. Some of these men, I suppose, would leave their money at +the bank?-I daresay they did. + +3990. Is there anything else that occurs to you to state with regard +to the fishings?-Nothing. + +3991. You are now out of the trade of engaging men for the +Greenland whale fishery?-We are just about out of it. + +3992. You have intimated to your correspondents in the south that +you are not to act for them any longer in that matter?-Yes. + +3993. Your commission there was 21/2 per cent. upon the wages +and oil-money of each man, and that commission was paid to you +by the shipowners?-Yes. + +3994. Do you consider that that was an inadequate +remuneration for the trouble you had with the men?-Yes. It was +not only an inadequate remuneration, but we were supposed to be +taking advantage of the men in settling with them, and that has led +us to give up the agency. It was thought that we did not actually +settle with them in cash, but that we gave them goods for their +wages + +3995. You have added to your written statement on this subject an +abstract of your dealings for the last three years with the men +engaged in some of these whaling vessels, which shows that +during that period the average amount of wages and oil-money +paid annually to each man was £11, 13s. 6d.; the supplies given to +the man before sailing and to his family during his absence were +on an average £1, 7s. 2d-leaving a balance of £10, 6s. 4d, which +was paid in cash?-Yes. That balance was actually paid to the +men in cash, in presence of the marine superintendent, by one of +our clerks. Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the report made +by Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade on this subject, which was +communicated to the previous Commissioners on Truck, and +which is printed in the appendix to their report. + +3996. Have you any explanation to make with regard to that +report?-The only explanation I have to make is to contradict +publicly the whole statements contained in it; and I hope the result +of your examination here will prove to the author of report, and to +others, that they should not hastily jump at conclusions, and +condemn people unheard. + +3997. Do you contradict the whole of the statements in that report, +without exception?-Yes, I contradict them publicly, and I say +that, they are not in accordance with the facts. + +3998. The report says: 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in +debt to some shopkeeper:' is that incorrect?-It is not the case that +the whole fishermen in the islands are in debt. + +3999. Is it not the case that the majority of the fishermen employed +by you are in debt to your shop?-It is not. In the case of Whalsay +alone, I paid £1374 to the men when I settled with them. None of +them are in debt, and they have usually large sums of money to +get. + +4000. That is to say, they are not in debt in December when they +are settled with?-Yes; and during the next year, if they have +occasion to get supplies from the shop while the fishing is going +on, they get them, but they are not in debt, because they are getting +fish daily; and their account, although not settled, is running in +their favour. We would probably be in their debt if we were to +settle with them at any time during the season. + +4001. But before the spring fishing begins, do they not generally +run up an amount of debt at the merchants shops?-Not generally. +I think the men generally take money to pay for anything they +want. + +4002. Is it the case that cash payments at these shops are more +frequent about this season of the year, when the men have had +their settlements lately over, than they are subsequently?-I think +so, because they have money to pay for the articles they buy. + +4003. Will the returns made by your shopkeepers of sales at the +shops, or the accounts kept with the fishermen, show that?-The +shopman's cash-book would show what the daily drawings were. + +4004. Do you mean the daily drawings in cash?-Yes, the money. + +4005. And you think the daily drawings in cash are probably larger +at this season than at other times?-I should think so, because the +people have more money in their hands. + +4006. Then, if there is any truth in this statement, it must apply, in +ordinary seasons, to the period after the fishing has begun?-Yes, +it must apply to that; but the statement Mr. Hamilton makes, as to +paying seamen's wages, is utterly untrue. + +4007. It is true, I suppose, that agents are employed in Lerwick to +secure the services of men for ships in the Greenland fishery?- +Yes. + +4008. Then the portion of that sentence which, I presume, you +deny, is that the agents get little direct profit from their agency?- +No; they do get little direct profit-only 21/2 per cent. on the wages +and oil-money of the men. + +4009. These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are +proprietors of land themselves, or act land agents for others: is that +so?-Yes, that is true. + +4010. There are only three or four such agents in Lerwick- +yourselves, while you continued to act in that way, Mr. Leask, Mr. +Tait who has now retired, and Mr Tulloch, of A. Laurenson & +Co.?-Yes; Mr Tait has been succeeded, I believe, by Messrs. +Leisk and Sandison. There are no others that I know of. + +4011. Mr. Hamilton says: 'The owners merely find the money to +pay the wages of the men engaged. The agents manage everything +else. The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment +for those who are in their debt.' Is it the case, as a rule, that the +men engaged for these Greenland voyages have been in debt?- +No. It has been so difficult for many years now to get the men +forward; that we have been very willing to take any man who +would come, without regard to what part of the country he +belonged to. + +4012. But are the men so engaged frequently in debt to the +shopkeeper who engages them?-No. I think you will see that +from the copy of the letter which we wrote to one of the +shipowners. + +4013. Is it not true in point of fact, as stated here, that the agents +supply the men's outfits?-We go to the custom-house with the +men after they have been engaged, and we pay them their first +month's advance in cash, and that first month's advance is repaid +us by the owners of the ship. We cannot open an account in our +books with any of these men unless we take the risk of the debt, +because the terms of their agreement are that when they come +back from their voyage, nothing is to be deducted from their wages +except that first month's advance, and their monthly note, if they +have one. + +4014. But, as a matter of fact, are these men supplied with their +outfit by the agent who engages them?-The men are quite at +liberty to take their money, and get their outfit where they like. + +[Page 100] + +4015. Still, as a matter of fact, they are supplied with their outfit +by the agent, are they not?-No. We have supplied them to a very +small extent; the extract I have produced from our books shows +the full amount we have supplied them with, not only for their +outfit, but for their whole supplies during the season. + +4016. Then, during the absence of these men do their families +come to your shop frequently for supplies?-We cannot give them +any supplies unless they have their monthly note, and if we give +them any supplies, then we credit that note. If a man leaves a +monthly note to supply his family during his absence with one-half +of his wages, then his family can get supplied to that extent. + +4017. You supply them, if they wish, to the amount of that note?- +Yes, either cash or in goods. Many of the people, if they are living +in the country, take these monthly notes and hand them over to +some of their friends in the country, who transmit them to Lerwick +and get the money for them. + +4018. In that case, these notes are not taken out in the shape of +goods from your shop?-No. + +4019. Are you aware whether these monthly notes are ever taken +out in name of the agents?-It is very possible they may be, when +the men want that to be done. + +4020. Has that occurred in your dealings with them?-I think so. +In some cases we get the monthly notes, and pay the value of them +to the families as they become due, either in money or in goods. + +4021. Whether is it more frequently in money or in goods that you +have paid these notes to their families?-Some of the members of +their families come into town with the monthly notes when they +are due and they get the money. + +4022. Or goods?-Or goods. If they want anything before the +monthly note is due, they get goods, but it is very seldom that that +is done. However, the result of our transactions with these men +appears from the excerpt I have produced, which shows that the +advances made did not come to 30s, while at settling we paid the +men upwards of £10 each, in cash, taking them as a whole. + +4023. When that sum of £10 is paid to them, is there a standing +account against them at any of your shops?-No; the men are quite +clear. For instance, in the case of the 'Labrador' for the past year, +the men's wages and oil-money came, to £221, 7s. 4d., and we had +not an account standing against any of them in our books. + +4024. Do you state that in all cases referred to in that excerpt from +your books, the sums stated as having been paid in cash were paid +in full, and that at the time when they were paid there was no +account due to your firm by the men?-Yes; there was not one +farthing due when these sums were paid. + +4025. Because it might very well happen that you had an account +against them, although the cash was paid at the time in presence of +the superintendent?-I understand what you mean, but the +accounts will show that the men were all clear at the date of the +payment. + +4026. Is that at the date when the final releases were signed?-No. +The final release is only signed when they get their second +payment of oil-money. The second payment of oil-money is +comparatively trifling, only a few shillings to each man; and they +have before then been paid up their whole earnings to within 10s. +or 15s. or 20s. + +4027. Does the abstract account you have given in apply to the +state of things at the date of the final discharge of the men?-I +think it is taken from our books after the account of each ship was +closed, except in the case of 1871, because we had not got their +second payment of oil-money for that year, when the excerpt was +made. + +4028. Are all the accounts closed for 1870?-Yes. + +4029. You mean that the men have got payment of the whole of +their oil-money, including the second payment, for that year?- +Yes; and we have now got the whole of their oil-money for 1871 +also. + +4030. Has the final release for 1871 be signed?-I suppose so; but +I don't settle with the men personally. It is one of our clerks who +does so. The part of the report to the Board of Trade which I wish +particularly to refer to is this: 'It is true that the Board of Trade +rules provide that "the balance to be paid to the man is the balance +due on account of his voyage, deducting only such advances and +allotments, as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement; and +the value of such stores as may have been supplied to him +personally during the voyage by the master." But no time is fixed +for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the +agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again; and +when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him +before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all +back to the agent at once to whom he is indebted in an equal or +greater amount; and I need hardly point out that it is clearly most +important in the interests of the man, that he should not merely +nominally, but actually receive his wages in cash, and be able to +spend them as he likes.' That part of the report is not correct.' + +4031. Is it not the case that the releases of the seamen are very +frequently signed many months after the ship has arrived and +discharged her men?-I have explained the reason for that in my +statement. The men always go home whenever the ship arrives, +and come back to settle as they find it convenient for themselves. + +4032. But is it the case that it is often six or eight months +afterwards before the settlement is made?-It is the case that the +owners don't perhaps send down account of the oil that has been +boiled until this time of the year, and sometimes after this time; +but we pay the men before then nearly up to what we suppose the +amount of oil will be. Any small sum that is left out is sometimes +not paid until the ship comes out again in the following year. + +4033. The time for engaging men for the Greenland voyage is in +February or March?-Yes; in the end of February or beginning of +March. + +4034. And you state that in your business, as agents, there is no +account running with any of these men during the period after +the termination of the voyage, and before the last payment of +oil-money?-There is no account running with them from the +time when they settle finally until they engage again. + +4035. Then, at the engagement, a new account is generally +opened for the outfit?-No; we have nothing to enter against +them when they engage again, but just the money we pay them +at the custom-house. We charge them with the month's advance +which we pay them there; that is the only entry we have against +them. In one or two cases there may be more-perhaps a few +shillings; but in the case of the 'Labrador,' which I have already +referred to, we had not a sixpence marked against any man in the +vessel. + +4036. What is the main reason for taking the advance notes in +name of the shipping agents?-I suppose the men prefer it, +because it is just as convenient for them to hand the advance notes +to the shipping agents as to any other one in Lerwick. + +4037. But if the advance note is taken in the name of any of the +man's friends, that would entitle them to get payment of so much +of his wages from the shipping agent?-Yes; but the advance note +must be addressed to an agent, because the owners of the ship are +here to cash it, and the agent must pay it to somebody, either to the +man's wife, or to any other one that she transfers it to. + +4038. But what I asked was, whether these advance notes were +not taken payable, not to wife, but to the shipping agent, +himself?-I think not; it is either to the wife or to some of the +man's friends. + +4039. I understood you to say that sometimes they were made +payable to the shipping agent?-They are payable by the shipping +agent. It is the agent who has to pay them. + +4040. But you say they are never made payable to him as well as +by him, so that he has really the control over them, if they are +handed to him?-He has [Page 101] the control over them He +advances the money either to the wife or to any person that she +sends for it. + +4041. But, in point of fact, they are not made payable to him as +well as by him?-They are made payable to his order. + +4042. Do you say that these notes are not so taken by the shipping +agent, that he gets the benefit of them and the control over them, +and that the wife has no control over them whatever?-It is quite +possible that may be done in some cases, but I cannot say. + +4043. But that has not been done in your practice?-I shall send +for one of the forms of these notes, and that will explain the matter +better to you. + +4044. I understand these advance notes and allotment notes are +negotiable; at least they are indorsed by the seaman's wife as a +receipt?-I suppose when they are brought to the merchant they +are indorsed by her, and he pays the value of the note to anybody +who brings it. + +4045. Can the seaman himself indorse the note beforehand?-In +many cases the seamen don't get any of these allotment notes at +all, especially on these short voyages to Greenland. + +4046. But on a long voyage, does the seaman in point of fact +indorse the note?-A married man, I suppose, will take out these +advance notes to his family. + +4047. And he indorses them?-I think so; but not in every case. + +4048. Does he, in some cases, indorse specially to the ship's +agent?-Not to my knowledge; but I have not had that matter +through my hands lately, and I cannot speak to it with certainty. + +4049. Do you not attend to that part of your business yourself?- +No; Mr. Goudie, one of our clerks does it. + +4050. Then, the contradiction you have made of the statement in +the report to the Board of Trade has been made on behalf of your +firm?-Yes. + +4051. You have no knowledge of the way in which other agents +in Lerwick have dealt?-No; but I believe these agents, as well +as ourselves, are very glad to get any men they can meet with to +engage for the fishing. There is sometimes great difficulty +experienced in manning the ships, and we cannot pick and choose. + +4052. The commission of 21/2 per, cent. is matter of private bargain +between you and the shipowners?-Yes. + +4053. So that, if that is an insufficient remuneration, it might by +private agreement be increased?-I suppose it might; but if the +owners can get people to do their work for 21/2 per cent., they will +not increase it. + +4054. However, the principal thing you wish to state upon that +point is, that at the time when you engage these men for a +Greenland voyage, none of them are, in point of fact, in debt to +your firm?-None of them. That is stated in one of the letters we +wrote to one of the owners in Peterhead. + +4055. There have been special regulations issued by the Board of +Trade applicable to the discharge of seamen in Orkney and +Shetland from the whalers, which are intended to allow a longer +period for signing the release?-Yes. + +4056. These regulations provide-'(1.) The agreement shall be +entered into before the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine +office, and shall show the advance of wages made, and the +allotments to be paid during the ship's absence; there shall also be +a stipulation in regard to the travelling expenses of the men on +their return home, in the event of their being taken past their own +island. (2.) The master of the ship shall keep a separate store book +for the Shetland and Orkney men, containing a distinct account for +each of the men, in which, on the ship's return, he shall show the +wages, and estimate the amount of oil and bone money, etc., to +which they are respectively entitled; the account to be signed by +himself and the seaman whom it concerns, in proof of its accuracy. +At the foot of the account he shall state his opinion of the +character of the man to enable the agent to prepare the certificate +of discharge and character. (3.) When the men are landed the +master shall deliver the book to the agent in order that the account +of wages etc., may be prepared therefrom; and the balances due +to the men shall be paid to them in the presence of the +Superintendent at the Mercantile Marine Office, to whom the store +book is to be produced by the agent. The balance to be paid to the +man is to be the balance due on account of the voyage, deducting +only such advances and allotments as shall have been stipulated +for in the agreement, and the value of such stores as may have +been, supplied to him personally during the voyage by the +master'?-It has been found to be impossible to comply with that +regulation about settling with the men when they are landed, +because the moment they are landed they hurry to their homes, and +only come back to Lerwick to settle as they find it convenient for +themselves. + +4057. And in point of fact the settlement is delayed for weeks?- +Yes, for weeks, and sometimes for months. + +4058. Are the balances contained in the statement you have +produced the balances referred to in the regulation I have read?- +They are the actual cash balances due to the men, and the actual +amount paid to the men in cash. + +4059. The deductions in the second column are supplies made by +you in goods?-Yes. + +4060. Is it not an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Act of +1864, to supply goods even to that limited extent?-These supplies +may have been made on monthly notes; and there is nothing in the +Merchant Shipping Act to prevent us from giving credit to men +going to Greenland the same as to any person at home, provided +they come back and pay us. We know them, and could trust them +to come back; but I don't think that, in any case, we have given +them any credit. + +4061. If you did not give them credit, how did you find it +necessary to deduct these supplies?-In that case the supplies may +have been given under monthly allotment notes. + +4062. What you mean is that the £1, 7s. 2d. which you state as the +average of the deductions may have been paid either in cash or in +goods?-Yes. I think I have explained that in the paper I have +given in. + +4063. You say in one of the letters you have quoted, that 'the +supplies mentioned in the account consist mostly of meal, given to +the men's families to account of their half pay notes, and on which +the profits cannot pay cellar rents and servants' wages'?-When a +half-pay note not due until the end of the month, and the wife +sends in and wants some meal in the meantime, she gets the meal, +and we deduct it from the half-pay notes when we pay them. + +4064. Then the half-pay notes are not generally paid cash?-They +are generally paid in cash, but before they are due we give them +goods to account. + +4065. Am I to understand that these notes are paid mostly in meal +or mostly in cash?-They are paid partly in meal, and rest is paid +in money when the notes are due. If a woman has 20s. of a half +pay note, she gets perhaps 5s. in meal, and then she gets the rest of +the money in full when it is due. The second column in the +abstract I have produced, shows the actual goods advanced, and +the actual money. + +4066. Have you now got one of the forms of the advance note?- +Yes [produces it]; that form is addressed to us. + +4067. That is to say, you are to pay it?-Yes; and the woman, +when she gets the money, signs her name on the back of the note. + +4068. Is it not the case sometimes that in the lines issued to +Lerwick seamen the order is to pay is in favour of the ship's agent +himself?-Not that I know of. + +4069. Has there been no indorsation by the seaman or his wife, in +any case that you are aware of which was equivalent to an order to +pay to the ship's agent himself?-That could only have had the +effect of reserving the agent's claim against the shipowner. + +4070. No, it would enable him to retain the money which he would +be bound to pay at settlement or at the end of the month when the +allotment note became due to the wife or sister, or other relation +[Page 102] of the seaman. Have you known any case of that +kind?-There may have been such cases, but I have not been +aware of them. + +4071. The third article of these regulations by the Board of Trade +goes on to say-'The superintendent is not to allow any deduction +to be made in their account for stores supplied by the agent or by +tradesmen to the seaman's family during the seaman's absence, +nor is he to permit the insertion in the account of deductions for +any transactions in money or goods that may have taken place +before the commencement of the voyage.' I suppose that refers to +the form of note now shown to me?-Yes. In fact he is not to +allow anything to go into the settlement, except what is provided +for in the agreement. + +4072. Are these supplies, which are stated in the note, not an +infringement of that rule of the Board of Trade?-No. As I +mentioned already, I suppose the greater part of these supplies +have been made on allotment notes. + +4073. But although made on the allotment notes, yet they are +supplies made by the agent to the seaman's family, and they are +deducted from his wages at the end?-Yes; but these allotment +notes are provided for to be included in the settlement with the +seaman when he returns. They are made a legal claim against his +wages. + +4074. Does the rule not imply that the allotment notes are to he +paid in money?-The man's family can get them either in money +or in goods, as they choose. The woman may perhaps not wait +until the end of the month to receive her £1, 2s. 6d. she may want +a part of it in the early part of the month, or in the middle of the +month; and she comes and gets either money or goods, as she +chooses; and then at the end of the month she gets the balance. + +4075. When she gets the goods in the middle of the month, she +gets them on credit?-Yes; and she pays for them out of the £1, 2s. +6d. when she gets her allotment note settled; but I think that has +occurred only to a very small extent. I think there are very few of +the seamen who take these allotment notes at all. The young men +don't require to take them; it is only the married men who require +them. + +4076. If it is the case that very few take them, then the whole of +these supplies are not on allotment notes?-I think a good many of +them have been given on allotment notes. + +4077. But so far as they were not on allotment notes, in what way +were the supplies furnished? Has it been upon accounts opened +with the men for their outfit before starting?-I think that has very +seldom been the case. They may occasionally get a few shillings +worth when they go out; but we take care to give as little credit in +that way as possible. + +4078. Were the deductions you have stated here [showing] allowed +by the superintendent in settling with these seamen?-No. These +deductions, as I have said already, are in the form of allotment +notes. + +4079. But you have told me that only some of them were in +the form of allotment notes; in what way were the rest of the +deductions made?-The superintendent does not allow any +deductions, unless what are specially mentioned in the agreements. +If these men got a few shillings of advance before they went away, +it is possible that may have been included, they come back and pay +it after the settlement at the custom-house. + +4080. Then, this total of £10, 6s. 4d. [showing] paid in cash does +not show the amount that was actually handed over in presence of +the superintendent?-I think it does, or near about it. + +4081. But not altogether to a penny?-Perhaps not so near as that, +but I took the book and went over it carefully, and picked out all +the cash the men had got, and all the goods, and separated them. + +4082. In settling with the men before the superintendent, you are +entitled to deduct the amount of allotment notes issued is that +so?-Yes; and the first month's advance, and any advances the +men may have had on board the vessel during the voyage. + +4083. Does the £270, 1s., 7d., mentioned in your abstract of +accounts, represent the whole of the deductions that were so +allowed by the superintendent?-Perhaps not exactly the whole; I +shall send for the book, and it will explain it better. + +4084. There may have been something due for supplies furnished +in addition to what was allowed by the superintendent, and for +which the seaman settled with you after receiving his cash?- +Perhaps that may have been so, but I have not been in the habit of +settling with the men myself. + +4085. Perhaps your clerk, who settled with the men, can explain +it better, as he has been in the way of carrying through the +transactions?-Yes. + +4086. But what I understand you to say is, that you cannot state +that sum of £1, 7s. 2d. represents the whole amount of advances +which on an average each received from you?-The only thing I +can state just now is, that out of an average of £11, 13s. 6d., which +each man was entitled to receive each year over a period of three +years, we only paid them £1, 7s. 2d. in goods + +4087. But you cannot state that that £1, 7s. 2d. all fell under the +category of deductions allowed by the regulations of the Board of +Trade?-No; not unless I were to go over every man's account, +and pick out what had been given to him under allotment notes. + +4088. And you cannot state that the sum of £10, 6s. 4d. was the +sum which actually passed in cash at the settlement before the +superintendent?-It is the actual sum which passed into the men's +hands in cash. + +4089. Do you say that there was not a larger sum than that which +passed between the men and your clerk before the superintendent +at settlement, part of which was returned to you afterwards, in +payment for supplies?-I don't know about that, because I have +not been in the habit of going up to the custom-house with the +men; but I went over the books myself, and I found that £10, 6s. +4d. was the amount in cash which the men got out of the sum of +£11, 13s. 6d., in whatever way it was paid to them. + +4090. You cannot say whether it was paid before the +superintendent or not?-No; I cannot say. + +4091. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No; I think +everything has been referred to. + + +Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANET EXTER, examined. + +4092. Where do you live?-At Satter, in Sandwick parish. + +4093. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes. + +4094. For whom?-For Mr. Robert Linklater. I knitted for him +first. + +4095. Does he supply you with wool?-He gives us worsted to +knit. + +4096. You don't knit with your own worsted?-No. + +4097. What do you knit?-Mostly veils. + +4098. How often you come to Lerwick with them?-Generally at +the end of every month. + +4099. Do you keep an account with Mr. Linklater?-We get no +lines, and I have not a pass-book. + +4100. Why have you not a pass-book?-Because he thought there +was no use giving us a pass-book when he marked all the things +down in his own book, and he would not give it. + +4101. When you go to him with your veils, how are you paid?- +Very poorly. We just get 8d. for a veil. + +4102. How is that paid to you-in money or goods?-In goods. I +have asked for a payment in money, but he would not give any. +He gives us tea for 9d. and 10d. a quarter. + +4103. Would you give your veils for less if you could get money +for them?-Yes, for a little less. + +4104. For how much less?-Not much. + +4105. Are you not as well off getting the goods as you got +money?-No; I would be better off with the money. + +4106. Why? Do you not want to buy the articles [Page 103] which +Mr. Linklater sells to you?-No. Sometimes we need a little meal. + +4107. Have you no other means of getting meal than from your +knitting?-No. + +4108. Do you not work out of doors?-We work in the field and in +the turnips. + +4109. But it is yourself I am speaking of. Do you live with your +father and mother?-Yes. + +4110. Have they got a bit of ground?-Very little; a peerie (small) +bit. + +4111. But you think you would be better with money, and you +want to buy meal with it?-Yes, I want to buy some meal. I +dropped knitting to Mr. Linklater and went to Mr. Sinclair. I asked +a little money from him, and I got 2s. or 3s. So far as I saw, there +was more justice in him than in Mr. Linklater. + +4112. If you were only paid for your knitting in dresses and goods +of that sort, what did you do when you wanted to buy meal?-We +had to take the goods home, and give the cotton and tea for the +meal we wanted. + +4113. To whom did you give the cotton and tea?-Just to any +person who would give us meal for them. + +4114. Is there a shop in your neighbourhood?-Yes. + +4115. Have you given goods there in exchange for meal?-Yes, +sometimes. + +4116. Does the shopkeeper there take your goods from you in that +way, in exchange for any articles you want?-Yes, sometimes, +when we require anything. + +4117. What is his name?-Mr. Gavin Henderson, at Ness, +Sandwick. + +4118. Is it a common thing for Mr. Henderson to take goods from +you?-No. + +4119. He generally wants to be paid in money?-Yes. + +4120. Is that the only thing you have done with the goods except +using them yourself?-No. When I met any person that I could get +a little meal from in exchange for them, I have given them for that. + +4121. Have you ever given away your goods to any other person +than Mr. Henderson for money or meal?-Not very often. + +4122. Have you ever done it?-Yes. + +4123. To whom have you given them?-Just to any person +thereabout. + +4124. You have given them to any neighbour who wanted the +goods, and happened to have meal?-Yes. + +4125. When was that?-It was about two or three years back. + +4126. You have not done it for the last two or three years?-No. + +4127. How was that? Have you been better off?-Yes, a little; but +not much. + +4128. You have been getting some money from Mr. Sinclair +during the last two or three years?-Yes; a shilling now and then. + +4129. And that would help you?-Yes, it helped a little. + +4130. How much do you get in a month for your knitting?-I will +get a shilling and a sixpence at a time. + +4131. But what is the value of your knitting? What are your +earnings in a month?-I will make about eight or nine veils in a +month; and when they are made of the finest worsted I get 16d. for +them. + +4132. Then you will be earning 12s. or 13s. in a month?-Yes. + +4133. And you will get a shilling of that in cash now and then?- +Yes. + +4134. Do you spend the rest in dress?-Yes, and cotton. + +4135. How much of that will you give away in the course of a year +for meal and money?-I could not say. + +4136. You will get about £6 or £7 worth of dress in the course of a +year: do you require all that for your own use?-No, I don't +require it all. + +4137. You give some of it to the rest of your family?-Yes. + +4138. Is that all you have got to say?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE SANDISON; examined. + +4139. You have come in from Sandwick parish to give some +evidence about the way in which you are paid for your hosiery?- +Yes. + +4140. Do you knit for any person in town?-Yes; have knitted for +Mr. Robert Linklater for four years. + +4141. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes. + +4142. And are you paid in goods?-Yes. + +4143. Do you ever get money?-No. + +4144. Have you ever asked for it?-I asked for it one time, and he +said he expected money from me, and not I from him. + +4145. That was for goods you were to get?-Yes. + +4146. But you gave him hosiery instead of money, and you got his +goods?-Yes. + +4147. Have you ever disposed of any of the goods you got in that +way, in order to provide yourself with provisions or to pay rent?- +Yes. + +4148. To whom have you sold them?-I have sold them to several +persons for oil to see to knit. + +4149. Do you burn oil in your lamps?-Yes. + +4150. To whom did you sell them for oil?-To several persons. + +4151. To neighbours?-Yes. + +4152. Tell me anything you gave away in that way?-I have given +tea. + +4153. How much?-Sometimes two ounces for bottle of oil. + +4154. When did you do that last?-Last year. + +4155. Did you do it often?-Three times. + +4156. Did you ever give away your goods for anything else?- +Sometimes we gave them away for wool to make into worsted. + +4157. Who did you buy wool from?-From any one that I could +get it from. + +4158. Give me the names of some of the people from whom you +got oil and worsted in exchange for your goods?-I gave some tea +to Mitchell Sandison for wool. + +4159. Did you ever sell any of your soft goods in that way?-No. + +4160. It was always tea?-Yes. + +4161. Is it a common thing among the knitters in your quarter to +give away tea for anything you want?-Yes; for anything we can +get for it. + +4162. Did you ever pay for meal with it?-No. + +4163. Did you ever pay your rent with it?-No. + +4164. Did you ever get money for tea?-No. + +4165. It was just oil and wool that you got in exchange for it?- +Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined. + +4166. You come from Sandwick parish?-Yes; from North +Channerwick. + +4167. Do you knit for Mr. Robert Linklater with his wool?-Yes. + +4168. Are you paid in goods?-Yes, + +4169. Did you ever ask for money?-Yes, once. + +4170. Did you get it?-No. + +4171. What did you want the money for?-I wanted it for several +purposes. We might perhaps require to pay for our board if we +were staying a night or two in town; and that was the purpose I +wanted it for at that time. + +4172. Did you want any of it for provisions to take home?-Yes. + +[Page 104] + +4173. Are you not content to get the goods you want in return for +your hosiery?-We are not very well content sometimes. + +4174. Why?-Because if we were getting the money, we might +make more of it in some other shops. + +4175. Did you ever get the money to make more of it?-We never +got money from Mr. Linklater. + +4176. But did you ever go to Lerwick with money in your pocket, +and make more of it than when you came with hosiery?-Yes, +often. + +4177. What money was that? Had you earned it by working at +other things than knitting?-Yes. + +4178. How did you make more of it than you would have done by +spending it in the hosiery shop?-I went to other shops where +there were better articles. + +4179. Where did you go?-Sometimes to Mr. George Tait's. + +4180. Does he not buy hosiery?-No, he never buys hosiery. + +4181. Where else did you go to?-To Mr. Thomas Nicholson. + +4182. But he buys hosiery?-Sometimes; if it is very good. + +4183. Tell me anything you bought at Mr. Tait's or Mr. +Nicholson's which was cheaper than you would have got it for at +the shops where you sold your hosiery?-It was only trifling things +we bought out of their shops, because we never had money to buy +things of great value from them. + +4184. What were some of these trifling things?-Perhaps we were +requiring neckties, or ribbons, or flowers; we might get them from +them, but we scarcely ever went there to buy anything like dresses. +I remember once buying a dress at Mr. George Tait's and I got a +splendid bargain of it for money. + +4185. Did you get it any cheaper than you would have got it from +the shops where they buy hosiery?-Yes; he reduced the price +because it was to be paid money. + +4186. If you had offered money in Mr. Linklater's or Mr. Sinclair's +shops; would you not have got the dress as cheap there?-I don't +think it. + +4187. Have you any reason to know that you would not?-Yes, I +have reason to know that, because if we were buying anything out +of their shops we would not get any reduction on the price + +4188. Even although you were offering money?-Yes. + +4189. Have you gone there with money?-Yes, I have gone with +money, but very little. I scarcely ever go to their shops with +money if I have it. + +4190. Have you ever exchanged any of the goods that you got for +your knitting?-No, I have never done that. + +4191. You have always wanted them for your own use, or for the +use of your family?-Yes. + +4192. Have you taken goods from other people which they had got +in exchange for their hosiery?-No. + +4193. Have you known anybody who did so?-No; I cannot say +any person who has done it. + +4194. Is that all you came here to say?-I think a very proper thing +would be that we should have a little money, if not the whole, for +our knitting. It would be a good thing if we could get even the half +of it in money. + +4195. Did you ever try to get one-half in money?-I only asked for +money once-it was a very trifling sum, only 6d.-and I was +refused it. + +4196. Was that when you had sold your knitting to Mr. +Linklater?-No; I was knitting to him at that time with his own +worsted. + +4197. Did you ever sell anything that you had knitted with your +own worsted?-Sometimes I would sell a little. + +4198. Were you always paid in goods in the same way?-Yes, +always in goods. + +4199. Did you ever try to get payment of it in money?-No; +because they always said they never gave money; so there was no +use asking. + + +Mrs AGNES MALCOMSON or JOHNSTONE, examined. + +4200. Do you live with your husband at Victoria Wharf, +Lerwick?-Yes. + +4201. Do you sometimes knit?-I do. I generally knit for myself +and sell what I have made. + +4202. To whom do you sell it?-I cannot mention any one of the +merchants that I have sold to more than another. I sell it to any +one. + +4203. Do you sometimes sell to strangers?-I don't do much in +that way. + +4204. It is to the merchants in Lerwick that you sell principally?- +Yes. + +4205. And you get payment for your knitting by taking goods in +the usual way?-Yes. + +4206. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never get any +money. + +4207. Have you asked for money, and been refused?-Yes, I have +asked for money to pay for the dressing of shawls. It is generally +half shawls that I knit. + +4208. Have you not been able to get money when you asked for +it?-I once got 6d. for that purpose, or rather it was thrown at me. + +4209. What do you mean by that?-I mean that it was given in that +sort of way. + +4210. Would you rather be paid in money than in goods for your +knitting?-Yes, much rather. + +4211. If you could get money, would you be content to take a +rather lower price for your work?-I would indeed. + +4212. What is the price of the half shawls you knit?-They vary in +price according to the quality of them. + +4213. What is the ordinary price you get?-I have got 28s. for a +half shawl, and I have got from that down to as low as 12s. + +4214. Suppose you were selling a shawl for 16s. in goods, would +you be content to take 14s. if you were paid for it in cash?-Yes, I +would be quite content to do with that. + +4215. Why?-Because I would be able to make more of the 14s. in +cash than of the 16s. in goods. + +4216. How would you do that?-I would go to the ready money +shops, as we call them; and I would do as much with my 14s. in +cash as I would do with my 16s. in goods. + +4217. Where would you go in Lerwick to make as much of 14s. in +cash as the 16s. worth of goods which you would get in one of the +other shops?-I don't like to mention the names of these shops +publicly, but I will give them privately. [Witness gives the names +of two shops.] + +4218. Are there more shops than one where you could do that?- +Yes; there is one shop especially, but there are others also where I +could make as much of 14s. as I could of 16s. in goods. + +4219. Have you tried that often?-Not very often, because I have +not had it in my power; but when I could do it I tried it. + +4220. Have you sometimes, when you had ready money, gone to +such a shop as Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Not very often. + +4221. Have you ever gone there?-Long ago, when I was young, I +went there very often, but I have not gone for many years. + +4222. Then you cannot tell whether you could make more of your +14s. at a shop like that, than you could at Mr Linklater's or Mr +Sinclair's?-I think I would make more in Messrs. Hay's if I had +the cash than I would in Mr. Linklater's. + +4223. Would you often find it convenient to have the money with +which to buy provisions?-Yes, a person like me who has a family +would often find it to be convenient. Those of us who have our +husbands earnings to live upon are not limited to that; but I have to +find the most part of the clothing out of my knitting, or out of my +other industry. + +4224. Do you employ your time in other ways as well as in +knitting?-Yes. I keep a lodger occasionally. I have two or three +children at school, and a [Page 105] baby at home to attend to, +besides sometimes one, and sometimes two lodgers. + +4225. And it would be handy for you to have the money with +which to pay school fees?-Yes. + +4226. Have you ever been obliged to exchange the goods you got +for money for other things you were more in want of?-No; I have +never been so hard pushed as that, but I know some people who +have. + +4227. Were these acquaintances of your own?-Yes; I know them +quite well. + +4228. Have you ever taken goods from them, and given them +money or provisions in exchange?-Yes; I have given a few +groceries occasionally, but very few. I have also bought groceries +from a knitter, such as tea, which they had taken out in exchange +for their work. + +4229. How did you pay for that? Did you give the woman money +for it?-Yes, I gave her money to help her through for a time. + +4230. What was she to do with the money?-That was no business +of mine; I don't know. + +4231. Did she not tell you what she was to do with it?-No; she +did not say, and I did not ask. + +4232. Did she come and ask you to take the tea off her hands?- +Yes. + +4233. Who was that?-I will give the name privately. There was +more than one of them. [Witness gives two names.] + +4234. Then you think it would be better for the knitters that they +should be paid in cash?-Yes, it would be better for all the +Lerwick knitters especially. + +4235. Why for the Lerwick knitters especially?-Because they are +most dependent upon their knitting, especially in the winter +season. + + +Lerwick, January 8, 1872, ROBERT MOUAT, examined. + +4236. You are a blacksmith at Olnafirth Voe?-Yes. + +4237. You get the principal part of your work from Messrs. Adie, +and the fishermen and tenants in that district?-Yes. + +4238. In dealing with Messrs. Adie, do you run an account with +them?-No; I generally pay in cash for what I get in the shop. + +4239. Are you aware whether the prices that you pay in cash are +the same as are paid by the fishermen in the neighbourhood?-I +am not quite sure about that, but I suppose so. + +4240. Can you tell me the prices of any of the articles which you +get from their shop? For instance, what do you pay for meal?- +The meal that Messrs. Adie sell now is 1s. 5d. per peck, whereas I +can get the same meal in Lerwick for 1s. 2d. now. Five months +ago, when I lived in Lerwick, I could get it for 1s. 3d. + +4241. What do you pay for tea?-There are three kinds of tea; we +pay about 3s. 4d. per pound for one kind, about 4s. for another, +and I think 3s. is about the lowest. + +4242. Is there any other article that you get in any quantity in +Messrs. Adie's shop?-I think these are the principal articles we +get there. + +4243. Do you deal for soft goods there?-A little. + +4244. For boots?-No; I have not gone there for boots. + +4245. What kind of soft goods do you get?-Winceys and cottons. + +4246. Can you tell the prices which are charged for these things, +compared with what you would get them for in Lerwick?-No. + +4247. Is it commonly supposed that there is more than one price +for goods at that shop? Have you heard the fishermen who settle +up only once a year, complain that you get your goods cheaper +than they did?-I have not heard them say so. It is not long since I +went to that place, and I am not very well acquainted with the +fishermen there yet. + +4248. Where were you before?-I was born in Northmavine, and I +was connected with the fishing there. + +4249. How long is it since you ceased to fish there?-About +fifteen years ago. After leaving Northmavine I came to Lerwick. + +4250. Do the fishermen at Voe run an account at the store, which +is settled at the end of the fishing season?-I think so. + +4251. What reason have you for supposing that? Have they told +you so?-They have not told me, but I have been aware of such +cases since I went there. + +4252. Does that mode of settlement affect you in your trade?-It +affects me in this way, that I get a little more custom from the +fishermen about the time when they settle, than I do during the rest +of the year. + +4253. Is that because they have money to pay you with?-Yes. + +4254. Do you not give them credit in the rest of the year if they +have work to do?-I give them some credit; but I have only been +five months there. + +<Adjourned>. + +Lerwick: Tuesday, January 9, 1872. +<Present>-Mr. Guthrie. + +WILLIAM GOUDIE, examined. + +4255. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness, on the +property of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am. + +4256. Are you under any obligation, by the terms on which you +hold your land, to fish for any particular fish merchant?-Yes; we +are under an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce, younger of +Sumburgh. + +4257. Is that obligation part of a verbal contract or lease which you +have with him?-It is generally known that we must not break that +rule. + +4258. You have no leases on the Sumburgh estate?-No; but we +had an offer of a lease. The offer I had is here. [Produces paper.] + +4259. The document you hand in is a printed copy of 'Rules for +the better management of the Sumburgh estate?'-Yes. + +4260. When did you get it?-Last year, at settlement, so far as I +remember. That would be in the spring of 1871. + +4261. When is your settling time?-There is not always one +settling time. Some years it is later, and some years earlier. + +4262. Have you settled this year yet?-No. + +4263. Was anything said to you about that paper when it was +handed to you?-No; it was just handed over to me in Mr. Bruce's +office. + +4264. Have you signed any copy of these rules?-No. + +4265. You have not accepted them as binding upon you?-No. + +4266. Do you prefer to continue to hold your land year by year?- +No; we should like a lease. + +4267. Have you any objection to these rules?-We [Page 106] +thought they were not altogether so much on our side of the leaf, +as we say, as we should like. + +4268. You are not going to accept them?-I don't believe we +shall. + +4269. But under your present tenure, as you hold your land at +present, you say you are bound to deliver all your fish to young +Mr. Bruce?-Yes; the fresh fish. + +4270. In what way are you so bound? Did you agree to any +obligation of that kind?-No; but before I became a tenant, the +rule had been issued that all his tenants had to give their fish to +him in a fresh state. + +4271. When did you become a tenant?-About five or six years +ago; and the rule was in force before I came. I have broken the +rule very little so that I have not been called in question. + +4272. But you took your land knowing that that was a condition of +your having it?-Yes. + +4273. Have you had to pay any fines for delivering any of your fish +to other parties?-No, I have paid none. + +4274. Do you understand that such fines are to be levied if you fail +to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce?-I have not heard of any fines; +but it has been reported that the tenants would be warned if they +did so. I have heard that reported publicly: that they would be +warned, or might be warned, on that account. + +4275. Did you agree, when taking your lease that you would be +liable to pay a fine if you delivered your fish to any other +merchant?-No, I was never called upon to agree to that; but it +was generally known that we had to give all our fish to him, fresh. + +4276. Who told you that you were to give your fish to him?-That +was known publicly all over the district before I became a tenant. +I understood from my father and brothers and neighbours that they +had had to do that, and I became a tenant on the same terms. + +4277. Were your father and brothers tenants on the Sumburgh +estate before you?-Yes; before I had land from Mr. Bruce. + +4278. Before you took the land, were you living on the estate?-I +had lived on the estate, for twenty-five years. I was born and +brought up on it; then I was absent for eleven years, and then I +came back to it. It was during the time I was absent that this rule +came into force. + +4279. Is there any obligation upon the tenants there to dispose of +their cattle or other produce to any particular person?-Not so far +as I know. + +4280. There is no obligation upon them at all, except as to fish?- +Not so far as I know. + +4281. How are you paid for your fish?-We are paid so much per +hundredweight of fresh fish, just as the price may be yearly. It is +not always the same price. + +4282. But there is one price for the whole fish of the year?-Yes, +for the same kind of fish. There is one price for ling, and one +price for saith. + +4283. That price is fixed when?-Nearly the time when we settle. +We don't know exactly what price we are to get until about that +time. + +4284. When is that?-It is not always in one month of the year. It +has sometimes been as late as March before we settled for the fish +we had caught in the previous spring. Sometimes it may have +been a month earlier. + +4285. Has it ever been earlier than February?-Not so far as I +remember. + +4286. When were the last of the fish delivered that were settled for +at one of these settlements?-Last year, so far as I know, Mr. +Bruce settled up for all the fish that had been weighed to him up to +the time of the settlement,; at least, most of it was settled for then. + +4287. That includes the small fish you catch in winter?-Yes. + +4288. Are you bound to deliver them to him, the same as the large +fish you get in summer?-Yes. + +4289. Then it is both the haaf fishing you are speaking of just now +and the small fishing in winter?-Yes. All the fish we catch +where I live are ling, cod, tusk, and saith. + +4290. But the fishing that you go to in summer is what you call the +haaf fishing, or the summer fishing?-Yes; in a sense it is the haaf +fishing, though the saith fishing is with us properly the haaf +fishing. Some go farther off in bigger boats and with longer lines, +and fish for ling and cod; while there are others, in smaller boats +and nearer the shore, pursuing the saith fishing. That is the only +difference between the kinds of fishing with us. + +4291. But the obligation and the settlement for the price of the fish +that you have been speaking of applies to both the haaf fishing and +the fishing in the smaller boats near the shore?-It applies to all +the fishing. + +4292. There is no Faroe fishing there?-Some of the men go to it. + +4293. But Mr. Bruce does not fit out boats for the Faroe fishing?- +Not so far as I know. + +4294. And you are under no obligation to him with regard to it?- +No. + +4295. You say you don't know of any case of fines being imposed +for delivering fish to other merchants?-There is no case of that +kind that I remember of. + +4296. Do you know of any increase of rent being imposed upon +that estate in consequence of liberty being given to fish for other +merchants?-No. There was liberty asked and granted at one +time, before most of those who are here were able to fish. That +was under old Mr. Bruce. + +4297. How long ago was that?-I don't remember the time. It was +when I was a boy. Some of the other witnesses may know about it. + +4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr. +Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking. + +4299. What do you mean by 'not strictly speaking?'-In one sense +we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no +rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as +we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly +expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us. +That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop. + +4300. Are there other stores in the neighbourhood from which you +could get your supplies as good and as cheap?-Yes. Messrs. Hay +& Co. have a store near us. Some things might not be equally +good, but there are other things there which are as good and as +cheap. + +4301. What other stores are there in your neighbourhood?-There +is no store exactly near us until we come to Mr. Gavin +Henderson's. + +4302. How far is his shop from your place?-It is above a mile. + +4303. Is Messrs. Hay's within a mile?-Yes, it is less than that. + +4304. Are there fishermen in the neighbourhood of Mr. +Henderson's shop, and living on Mr. Bruce's estate?-Mr. +Henderson's shop is not on Mr. Bruce's property. + +4305. Has he no fishermen living beyond Henderson's shop?- +There are some nearly as far north on the east side, but not so far +north on the west side. Mr. Bruce's property extends a little +farther north on the east side than on the west side of the island, +and Mr. Henderson's place is on the west side. + +4306. You live on the west side of Dunrossness?-Yes, rather; but +we are on the south point, so it does not much matter. + +4307. But are fishermen who live nearer to Mr. Henderson's store +virtually bound, in the same way as you are to deal at Mr. Bruce's +store?-The whole of Mr. Bruce's tenants are on equal terms,-all +in equal bondage. + +4308. But are there men for whom it would be more convenient to +deal at Henderson's store, as they live nearer to it?-Yes. + +4309. Are they in the habit of dealing at Mr. Bruce's store for the +reasons you have stated?-So far as I know, they are. + +4310. The same reason of a want of credit elsewhere, [Page 107] +would apply to them as to you, and compel them to go to Mr. +Bruce's store?-I don't say that they don't have credit; but we +cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has no profit +from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able to clear +that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run heavy +accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our crops are +a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce. + +4311. That would be just as true of a man who was two miles +nearer to Henderson's store than to Mr. Bruce's?-Yes. + +4312. And for that reason he may find it necessary, and probably +does find it necessary, to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and pass +Henderson's, although it is much nearer?-Yes, he has that to do. + +4313. Are you satisfied with the quality and the price of the +articles which are sold at Mr. Bruce's store?-With the qualities +we have no reason to grumble; with the prices we do. + +4314. Is that a general feeling in the district?-It is over all, so far +as I know. + +4315. Have you compared the prices of any particular articles at +that store with what you could get them for elsewhere?-I have +compared some of them,-not many. For instance, I have tried to +compare meal, to see what I lost by having it from Mr. Bruce's +shop instead of from other places. + +4316. What conclusion did you come to with regard to that?-I +concluded in my own mind that the difference was not below 3s. +on the boll of meal. It might be more, but I don't think it was less, +in this way, that we have our meal weighed to us, not always, but +generally, as 112 lbs. to the quarter boll. + +4317. Of which store are you now speaking?-The store at +Grutness, on Mr. Bruce's property. The meal is weighed at 32 lbs. +to the lispund or quarter boll. Mr. Irvine, the storekeeper, told me +there was a difference made when the lispunds and half-lispunds +and pecks were summed up. I asked him whether there was a +difference in the price between that and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll, +and he said there was a difference; but I never knew what it was. + +4318. Are you speaking just now of a difference in weight?- +There is a difference in weight, besides the difference in price. He +said he made a difference in the price on account of the short +weight, but I never knew what that difference was. + +4319. In what quantities do you buy your meal at Grutness +store?-Sometimes in a boll, and sometimes in half a boll. Many +of the men seldom get a boll, but take their meal in quarter bolls, +and sometimes in an eighth of a boll, that is a peck, or 8 lbs. + +4320. Is the boll you are speaking of the same as the boll by which +you would buy in Lerwick, or at Hay's or at Henderson's shop?- +When we get a boll unseparated, as it comes home, it is just the +same, so far as I know; but when it is weighed out, 32 lbs. to +the quarter boll, we are always under the impression that we lose +on weight. + +4321. How is that?-I cannot tell how it is. + +4322. Why should there be a loss on weight if the meal is weighed +out to you?-It is 32 lbs. to the quarter boll there, while in other +places it is 35 lbs. + +4323. Where is it 35 lbs?-In Lerwick, and, so far as I know, in +Messrs. Hay's, at Dunrossness. + +4324. Is the statement you are making just now, that you +understand you get only 32 lbs. to the quarter boll at Grutness, +while at other places you would get 35 lbs. to the quarter boll?- +Yes, I make that statement; but I also say that Mr. Irvine said there +was a little difference made in the price for that. He said, that +when it was summed up, so many lispunds being put into the boll, +there was a difference made on the price to cover the difference +between 32 and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll; but I never knew what +that difference was. + +4325. What is the price charged at Grutness for quarter boll of 32 +lbs. of meal?-It is not always one price. + +4326. What is it just now?-I don't know. I only had one boll last +year, and he could not tell me the price of it. I never knew the +price of his meal until a neighbour who settled with him before me +came back; and then I tried to enter the price of my meal +according to what that neighbour said he had paid for it at +settlement. + +4327. Then, in point of fact, you don't know anything about the +price of meal there?-He tells us the price of it when we settle. + +4328. But you have had no settlement this year yet?-No. + +4329. Had you a settlement last year, in the course of which you +became acquainted with the price of meal?-Yes. + +4330. Was it charged at the same rate throughout the year previous +to your last settlement?-Yes; one year's meal is always one price. + +4331. Is there never a variation in the price of meal during the year +to which the settlement applies?-Not so far as I have known. + +4332. Can you tell the price at which you settled for your meal at +last settlement?-I don't remember exactly, but there are men +present who can tell that. + +4333. Have you got any account of your last settlement?-I have +an account, but, not knowing that it would be called for or +required, it slipped past me. + +4334. Were you not cited to bring all accounts, receipts, and +pass-books?-Yes. I made a careful search for that account, but +I could not find it. I have some accounts here, but I could never +keep an exact account of how I stood with the shop, because I +did not know the prices of the goods until the time came for +settlement, or until I heard the prices from a neighbour who had +been settled with. I then tried to enter the value of my goods, and +to post up my account, before I appeared at the settlement; but +when an unlearned man like me posts up his account in that way, +he has but a poor chance. + +4335. But don't you get an account of your dealings at the shop at +the time when you are settled with?-We don't get a copy of our +shop account. + +4336. Do none of the men get a copy of their account at that +time?-I cannot speak for others. + +4337. Have you never had a pass-book?-No. + +4338. Have you never asked for one?-Not so far as I remember. + +4339. Then you have perfect reliance on the honesty of those who +act for Mr. Bruce in his shop?-Not exactly. I mark down the +articles myself which I receive, and I have compared that account +with Mr. Bruce to see if the same articles were in his account +when we settled. I could not until then, or until I had heard from a +neighbour a day or two before what he had paid, enter the value of +my articles; but I have compared the articles themselves with him, +and found the accounts run pretty straight. + +4340. You have some accounts relating to previous years with +you? Let me see one of them as a specimen?-[Produces small +note-book] + +4341. Is this account made up by yourself?-It is account kept for +my own satisfaction, to let me know whether there has been +anything marked against me which I have not had. + +4342. This is only a memorandum: was it taken at the time when +the goods were got, or was it written up from memory?-When I +came home from his shop to my own house, after I had received +the goods, I marked them down. I had not the book with me when +I received the goods from him; but I generally mark my account +after I come home, or a little time after I get to my own house. But +I do not receive any copy of an account from him of his own +handiwork. + +4343. Then that memorandum is merely a private note of your +own, made as you got the articles?-Yes. + +4344. It does not contain the prices?-No; I did not know the +prices when I made those entries. I put the prices against some of +them when I settled, and some of them by learning the prices from +neighbours when they settled, while for some articles they told me +the prices when I got them. + +4345. Did you find that the quantities marked in [Page 108] your +private memorandum were the same as those charged against you +at the shop?-Pretty nearly. There was no difference worth +mentioning. + +4346. What opportunity had you of comparing them? Was the +account at the shop read over to you, or did you read it yourself?- +I read over what I had marked down, and he saw if it was the same +as what he had. When I come in to settle, Mr. Irvine asks me, +'Have you an account, William?'-I say, 'Yes,' and he says, 'Will +you read it over?'-I have asked him to read the account which +was in his book, but he told me to read mine. When I read my +account, he says, 'Yes, yes, yes,' checking off the articles as I +mention them. The last time I read over my account in this way, +there was one peck of meal entered against me which was not in +my own. I said I would not swear I was right, and he said he +would not swear he was right. + +4347. In what way are you dissatisfied with the meal which you +get at Grutness?-It is 3s. a boll dearer than we can get it +elsewhere, because I have compared one year's account, which I +have in this memorandum-book, with the market price in Lerwick, +and I find that I am inside the limits of difference when I say that it +is 3s. a boll dearer at least. + +4348. I see that this memorandum-book of yours contains an +account for several years back?-Yes. + +4349. You get the prices for the goods at the time of settlement, +and mark them in your memorandum-book at the time?-Yes; or +from a neighbour who had settled before me, and who knew the +price of his meal. + +4350. Were the whole of these entries in your memorandum-book +made about the time of settlement when the thing was fresh in +your memory?-Yes, I could not have made them before because I +did not know the prices until then. + +4351. But it was done at the time or shortly thereafter, when you +remembered the prices which were charged against you at +settlement?-Yes. + +4352. For what year is this account [showing]?-I think for 1869. + +4353. The goods were supplied in 1868 and settled for in 1869?- +Yes; about February or March 1869. I cannot say to a month. + +4354. And you have compared the note of prices there with the +prices in the books of a merchant in Lerwick for the same time?- +Yes; at least he said his books were for the same time. I looked at +my book and he looked in his, and he told me what the difference +was. The merchant was Mr. John Leslie, Lerwick. + +4355. Was it only meal that you compared in that way?-Nothing +else. I am not sure of the barley meal; but I compared the oatmeal +with him. + +4356. I see from the book that during that year you got 61/2 lispunds +of oatmeal which are all charged at 7s. a lispund?-Yes. + +4357. When did you make your comparison with Mr. Leslie?- +Last night. + +4358. Is there any other article you get at the store which you think +could be got cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; but I could not prove these +things so distinctly, as I have not compared them. + +4359. What articles are there that you have that belief about?- +Mostly everything. + +4360. In the obligation which you understand you are under to +deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, are your sons and the other +members of your family included?-If they fish while living on his +property, they must fish to him. + +4361. Have you known any cases of tenants being challenged +because their sons sold their fish to other parties than Mr. +Bruce?-There are no cases of that kind which I can distinctly +bring before you. + +4362. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the +way in which matters are conducted in the fishing trade?-No; but +if I have liberty here to say anything in regard to Mr. Bruce +himself, I should like to be allowed to say a word. Mr. Bruce has +dealt with me and many other fishermen in a most honourable and +gentlemanly way. He has helped us when could not help +ourselves: whether he was in the knowledge that he would profit +by it or not, is not for me to say; but he has often helped us when +we required it. + +4363. Do you think that under the present system of dealing you +have the advantage in a bad season?-I believe we have in a very +bad season. + +4364. If you were not obliged to deliver your fish to the landlord, I +suppose he in turn would not be so ready to advance you supplies +from his store when you require them and are not able to pay for +them?-We believe so. + +4365. Is it common for fishermen in that district to be considerably +in debt at the store after a bad season?-Yes, after a bad season. + +4366. Do you generally get a balance in cash at settlement time, or +is it often the case that by that time you have got the whole value +of your fish paid to you in goods?-Some men have usually a good +bit of money to take, while others have not much, just as they have +had accounts at the shop, or have had money of their own with +which they could purchase goods elsewhere. Some of them may +have almost the whole value of their fishing to take in cash at +settlement, while others who have families to provide for, and +little land, and lean crops, have often very little to get, and are very +often in the landlord's debt. However, in an ordinary year, they +are not back much. At the present time, so far as I know, the bulk +of the men are clear, and most of them, I believe, would have +money to get. + +4367. Are your boys obliged to act as beach boys to Mr. Bruce's +curers?-Yes. + +4368. Is that part of the obligation under which you hold your +land?-I did not know that by experience until last year. + +4369. How did you know it then?-My boy had the offer of a +certain sum to work to another man; and when I told Mr. Irvine +and Mr. Bruce, they were very angry that I should have done such +a thing. Therefore, for fear I should be turned off, I did not allow +my boy to take the wages which he had been offered, but kept him +at home, and told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce that I would keep him. +I said I know I must be obedient, and my boy will work for you if +you want him. + +4370. Where did that conversation take place between you and Mr. +Bruce and Mr. Irvine?-In Mr. Bruce's office,-the month or the +day of the month I cannot state. + +4371. Were you sent for, or were you there to settle?-It was +before we settled,-perhaps in January. + +4372. Were you sent for about it?-No; I wished to know if my +boy should take the wages that he had been offered. + +4373. Why did you wish to know that?-Because I did not expect +they would give me the same amount of wages if he acted as a +beach boy. At the same time, they do not pay the boys ill; they pay +them tolerably well. + +4374. But why did you go to see them? Had you been told before +that your boy ought not to engage except to them?-I had known +that. + +4375. How did you know it?-It is publicly known that the +proprietor will want the boys of the tenantry to work for him. + +4376. Had your boy been engaged before then?-He had wrought +as a beach boy the previous year. + +4377. By whom had he been offered a higher wage in that month +of January?-By Messrs. Hay's man at Dunrossness. + +4378. What was he to work at?-He was to work among the fish at +the livers or oil, as a beach boy to Messrs. Hay. + +4379. What wages was he offered for that?-10s. for the season. + +4380. When you got that offer, did you go to Mr. Bruce's office to +see about it?-Not immediately; it was a while after. + +4381. Had you any communication from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine +which led you to go to them about it?-No; but I knew that I was +not safe to let him go to Messrs. Hay without telling them about it. +The reason why I knew that was, because there had been a boy +agreed by a man I was fishing with to go to the [Page 109] fishing, +but the boy was kept back from the fishing, and the man had to +look out for another boy. We had two boys and two of ourselves +to make up our boat's crew; and the boy that my fellow-fisherman +told me he had agreed with was kept back, and he had to go and +search the parish for another to fill his place. + +4382. Are cases of that kind common in the district?-Not very +common, but they do happen sometimes. + +4383. When you went to Mr. Bruce about that matter, did you tell +him your boy had received an offer from Messrs. Hay & Co?- +Yes. + +4384. What was said to you?-I am scarcely prepared to state in +public what was said to me. + +4385. You are bound to state the truth.-I don't mind stating the +truth; and if I have to go for the truth, let me go. Mr. Bruce said he +did not believe that my boy had got that offer, and he was +somewhat angry. I dreaded the consequences, because I might +have no shelter if I went contradictory to his will, and I did not +know where to go if I should be turned off. + +4386. But Mr. Bruce only said he did not believe you: that was all +he said?-Yes. + +4387. How did he show his anger?-I saw it in his face, and I +knew it by his voice and tone. + +4388. Did he say anything to you about the boy?-He just said in +an angry tone what I have stated. He said he did not believe he +had got any such offer, and that it was all a fiction to pull money +out of him. + +4389. Did he say that you should not allow your boy to go?-No, +he did not say that. + +4390. What else did he say?-I remember nothing more that I +could state. + +4391. What was the end of it?-I told him I would not allow my +boy to work to another man, but that while I was a tenant I had to +be obedient, and I was determined to be obedient. There was no +use for being troublesome and disobedient if I wished to remain a +tenant, and I did not allow my boy to go until I settled. I then +asked them calmly if they wanted my boy. Mr. Irvine said 'Have +you not agreed your boy to another party?' I said, 'No; I have kept +my word that he should not work for any other man if you required +him, seeing I am a tenant.' They then agreed my boy, and he +worked for Mr. Bruce that year. + +4392. What wages did he get?-He has not been settled with yet. I +said it was perhaps better for them to state a certain wage for him; +and Mr. Bruce said that he would not have less than £3, but he did +not say how much more. + +4393. When a boy acts as a beach boy in that way, how are his +wages paid?-Generally the boy's wages are fixed before he +begins to work, but Mr. Bruce does not fix their wages until they +have wrought for a season. Then the factor sees how they have +wrought, and what he thinks they are worth. That, I know, has +been done. + +4394. But how are they paid? Is it in goods or in money?-If they +don't take goods from the shop, they are paid in money at +settlement. + +4395. They can either take goods in their own names at the shop, +or they can be paid in money at the settling time?-Yes. + +4396. Is it usually the case that a separate account is opened in +name of a beach boy?-Yes. + +4397. What is the usual age of a beach boy?-From 12 to 14 or 15, +and so on. + +4398. Do you know whether, at the time of settlement, a boy has +usually any balance to receive in cash?-I should think that in +general they have something.4399. But is it not the practice that an +account is run, and the greater part of the wages is really settled +for in goods?-I could not state that exactly; because my own boy +wrought to them, and he had next to nothing from them. He +received his wages in money at the settlement without a grumble +and without a gloom. + +4400. Had he no account at all?-I think he had a pocket knife. + +4401. Are the wages of a beach boy generally handed over to his +parents?-So far as I know, that depends partly on the boy. +Generally his wages do very little more than purchase clothes for +him, and anything else he may require. + +4402. Then generally the balance against him will amount to +nearly the whole amount of his wages, and there will be little to +get out?-I should think so; but I cannot speak positively on that +point. + +4403. You do not know that from your own experience?-No. + +4404. Is it usual for beach boys to have got more goods supplied +to them during the season than the amount of their wages at +settlement?-I can say nothing about that. + +4405. Have you had anything to do with taking whales on the +coast?-Yes, with driving whales ashore. + +4406. Have the fishermen in your quarter anything to complain of +about that?-When we get the whales flinched, and the blubber +brought up above high water mark, it is sold, and the third part of +the money is taken by the proprietor. + +4407. Do you think the fishermen are entitled to get the whole?- +We think so. + +4408. Who sells the oil?-There is a note sent up to Lerwick to +publish the sale. An auctioneer comes down and it is generally +sold on the spot, and the third part of the money is deducted. + +4409. Who receives the money in the first instance? Is it the +auctioneer?-I don't know; but I should say it is the landlord. + +4410. He accounts to the fishermen who are interested for their +share of the proceeds?-Yes. + +4411. Is there any obligation to spend the money you get on these +occasions in the landlord's store?-No. + +4412. You can do as you like with it?-Yes. + +4413. Is there anything else you have got to say?-We all believe, +so far as I am aware, that liberty alone will never remedy our case. + Even suppose we had liberty, yet if we have no lease of our land, +the landlord can do with the land as he pleases, and render our +case worse than before. + +4414. Then it is a lease that you want?-Yes, a lease of a proper +kind; but if the land rent can be raised to any figure the landlord +thinks proper, what can a lease do for us, or what can liberty do for +us. It cannot remedy our case. + +4415. Then what you want is, that the landlord may be prevented +from raising his rent, and from turning you out of your farms?- +From raising it above measure, or above its real value. Another +thing is, that I can be turned out of my land at forty days warning, +after I have prepared it for winter. + +4416. If you make a bargain for a lease for a certain number of +years, as they do in Scotland, then you could not be turned out +until that lease expired?-That is what we need, and the land let at +a reasonable figure. + +4417. But that must depend upon the terms of your own +contract?-That may be; but the landlord sees plainly that he may +not have the power of the fishing; and if he has full power to rent +the land as he pleases, and can lay on the land what should come +from the fishing, then that would render our case more desperate +still. + +4418. Do you mean that you have to pay part of your land rent +from the fishing?-Our rents depend solely on the fishing. Some +men may have a cow or a horse to sell, to help them to pay their +rent; while there may be ten who would have nothing of the kind +to sell, except their fish. On Mr. Bruce's property, so far as I am +aware, the bulk of the tenants have to pay their rents from their +fishing. + +4419. Do you mean that your farm does not pay its own rent from +the crops which it yields?-Yes; we cannot afford to sell any crop +with which to pay our rent. If we were to sell the crop for that +purpose, we would be deprived of what we have to live upon. The +farms are very small, and we require the whole of the crops for our +own use. In some years they have not been sufficient to keep us +for half the year. + +4420. Then the state of matters is, that you live principally by your +fishing, and that your farm is an extra source of employment, or an +extra means of [Page 110] living for part of the year?-Yes; some +years, when there has been a good crop, it may serve us almost or +altogether for the whole of the year; then the fishing pays the rent, +and we may have some balance over to help us otherwise. In a +poor year I have had experience of it, when our crops could only +serve us for six months, and then we had to buy meal for the other +six months. In that case the fishing had to do the best it could to +pay both the land rent and the meal. + +4421. Then your difficulty is, that you are both fishermen and +farmers?-Yes; if the land was let at its real value, at what it was +actually worth, and we had a lease of it, and were allowed at the +same time to make the best of our fishing, we all believe that our +circumstances would be improved. + +4422. Suppose that were the case, there would then be no +obligation upon you to deal at any shop, but you could go where +you liked for your goods?-Yes; and we could make the best of +our fishing at the same time. + +4423. You could sell your fish to whom you pleased, making your +own price?-Yes. + +4424. Would it be any advantage to you to cure your own fish?- +We believe it would; and we know it, because there are some of +our neighbours who do it. There are people here who can speak to +that. + +4425. Don't you think the curing is better done when it is done +upon a large scale, than when a fisherman cures his own fish upon +the beach, with insufficient materials and apparatus, and perhaps +not with the same skill as people who are engaged in doing that +and nothing else?-With regard to the skill, none of them can +show us how to cure fish better than we could do ourselves. + +4426. None of whom?-None of those who now cure them, and +who have the large fishings. We know how to cure them as well +as they do. We see how they are curing them now, and many of us +have cured fish before, so that we know quite well about it. + +4427. Do you get as good a price for your fish when you cure them +yourselves as when they are cured by fish-curers?-We have not +had a chance to cure them ourselves. + +4428. But you say you know about it by experience?-Yes. There +are neighbours curing their own fish near where I live. Laurence +Shewan is one. + +4429. Is he a fisherman like yourself?-Yes. + +4430. Does he cure his own fish?-Yes. + +4431. How long has he done so?-I never remember him doing +anything else. There are others who cure them besides him. + +4432. Is he better off than his neighbours, in consequence +of having liberty to cure his own fish?-There are other +circumstances as well which doubtless render him better off, but +that must improve his circumstances too. + +4433. Where does he live?-At Gord. John Shewan, Scatness, +also cures his own fish himself. Laurence Shewan's fish were +purchased this year by Mr. Gilbert Irvine, and put into Mr. Bruce's +store; and I heard Mr. Irvine say that they were very good fish. + +4434. Have you ever compared with any of your neighbours their +profits by curing their own fish with you own takings by selling +your fish green?-I have not; but there are other witnesses present +who have done so. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, examined. + +4435. Are you a fisherman at Trosswick, and a tenant of land +under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes. + +4436. How far is Trosswick from Toab, where William Goudie +lives?-It is between two and three miles farther north. + +4437. Have you heard the evidence which Goudie has given?- +Yes. It is all correct, so far as I know. + +4438. You have heard his description of the way in which the fish +are delivered, and the way in which you hold your land, and the +way in which you purchase goods at the shop at Dunrossness, and +settle for them. Is that all correct?-It is. + +4439. You deal in the same way with Mr. Bruce and his +shopkeeper?-Yes. I have very little concern with the store at +Grutness, because Mr. Bruce has another store at the place where I +deliver my fish, which is called Voe. + +4440. What is the shopkeeper's name there?-Henry Isbister. + +4441. Is that shop near Boddam?-Yes, it is just at Boddam. + +4442. Is that store managed in much the same way Goudie has +described with regard to the store at Grutness?-No, not exactly in +the same way. Most of the things which are kept there are much +the same as in other places. + +4443. Do you mean that the quality of the goods is the same?- +Yes, it is much the same as elsewhere. + +4444. And you don't complain of the prices there?-No, not of the +things that I deal in myself. + +4445. What are these-meal and tea?-No; I deal very little in +these things there, because it has pleased God that I could mend +myself in another way. + +4446. In what way?-By going to another store. + +4447. Then you are not obliged to deal with that store at all?-No, +I am not obliged to go to that store unless I like. + +4448. Is that because you have ready money with which to buy at +another store?-Exactly. + +4449. You have always got some money in your hands?-Yes. + +4450. Do you sometimes buy in Lerwick?-Yes. + +4451. But you also buy at Mr. Bruce's store at Voe?-Yes; some +trifling things, such as rope or iron hoop, or the like of that; and +these are sold at much the same prices there as I can get them for +at other places. + +4452. Do you pay for them in ready money?-No. + +4453. They are put into your account and settled for at the end of +the year?-Yes. + +4454. Where do you get your provisions?-I get them sometimes +at Gavin Henderson's, and sometimes at Lerwick. + +4455. What do you pay for meal by the boll at Henderson's?-I +could not exactly say, because I don't have to run an account for +that. Generally I pay for it at once. + +4456. Then, at settling time with Mr Bruce, do you generally get a +large balance in cash?-Whether it is large or small, I get it in +cash at the beginning of the year, at the settling time. + +4457. Do you sometimes get advances in the course of the year +while the fishing is going on?-Sometimes I do, if I require them. + +4458. Have you often asked for advances of that kind?-I have. + +4459. Have they ever been refused?-Never. I always got them +when I had money coming to me. + +4460. Do you mean that you always got them when he was due +you money?-Yes. Sometimes, even if he had been due me a little +money, he might not perhaps have had money beside him to +supply me with; but when he had it I always got it, whether I had it +to get or not. + +4461. What has been the amount of money due to you for fish +during the last two or three years?-I have a few receipts here +which will show that. [Produces accounts.] + +4462. This account [showing] is for 1870; and it contains rent, £6; +roads, 4s. 6d.; poor-rate, 9s.: is that the tenant's half?-Yes. + +4463. Then there is a charge, 'To share of rent of hill:' is that the +scattald which you hold along with your neighbours?-Yes; and +which the neighbouring landlord is not taking a rent for at all. It +all runs scattald together. + +4464. Is the neighbouring landlord Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes. + +4465. On his land, does the rent of the scattald come [Page 111] +into the rent of the farms?-There is no rent paid for the scattald at +all on his land. It is used in the same way by all the tenants. + +4466. When was the additional payment charged against you first +for scattald?-Two years ago. + +4467. Then there is cash for kirk seats, 3s.: why do you pay your +kirk seats through your landlord?-I have paid them all along +through him. + +4468. Then there is-To account in Boddam shop, 18s. 61/2d.; to +account in Grutness shop, 1s. 9d.; and then on April 25, by cash, +£6, 14s. 7d.: that shows that you had not settled until April 25th?- +Yes. + +4469. Are you often as late as that in settling?-No; that was the +latest I ever knew. + +4470. Was it your fault that the settlement was so late?-No; I +should have liked to have settled sooner. + +4471. Do you know any reason why you could not have settled +sooner, even in November, when the fishing was over?-I don't +know any reason for that, except that they did not want to do it. +That is the only way in which I can account for it. + +4472. Have you asked for a settlement to be made with you at that +time?-I have not; because I thought there was no use doing it. + +4473. There are entries here-by saith, by ling, by cod: were these +for small fish caught during the winter?-There was a company of +men who were pursuing the herring fishing; one part of the +company were trying to prosecute the saith fishing for a time, until +the others saw whether there were any herring to be got, and my +proportion was one-twelfth share of the fish caught at the time. + +4474. That was an extra thing altogether?-Yes; and each man's +proportion was put in his account. + +4475. Is the amount of cash paid you, £6, 14s. 7d., a usual sort of +sum for you to get at settlement?-No; it is sometimes smaller. +Sometimes it is nothing at all, and I have been in debt. + +4476. Has that happened often?-Yes, it happened frequently for +some years before that. I have no accounts for these years. + +4477. I see that in 1865 there is marked a balance of £2, 1s. 5d. +Was that a balance which was due by you the year before?-Yes. + +4478. Then 1864 had been a bad year, and Mr. Bruce had +advanced you money above the price of your fish for that year?- +Yes. + +4479. Was that money advanced to you after settlement?-No; it +was a balance that had been carried over some years before. + +4480. When that balance was existing, did you consider yourself +obliged to deal in Mr. Bruce's shop rather than at another?-I was +obliged so far to deal at his shop, because I could not think of +going to another man and asking credit from him, when I saw no +way of making provision to pay him. I could not expect any man +to supply me in my necessity when I had no possible way of +repaying him. + +4481. But you were already in Mr. Bruce's debt?-Yes, at that +time I was. + +4482. Would you have been bound by that, supposing you had not +been bound by the terms on which you held your land, to deliver +your fish to Mr. Bruce, and to deal at his store?-No, I don't +believe I would, if I had been at liberty to deal elsewhere at any +other time. + +4483. Have you ever paid any fines or liberty money for yourself +or for any of your family?-None whatever. + +4484. Have you understood that you were liable to pay such +fines?-I understood that I was liable to pay a fine or to receive a +warning if I did not fish for my landlord. + +4485. But would you have been liable to pay anything besides +being afraid of being removed?-I don't know anything about that. + +4486. In 1865 you had got cash advances to the amount of £10, 7s. +2d., and your account at Mr. Bruce's store that year was only about +30s?-Yes. + +4487. I suppose in that state of matters, you are pretty well content +with the state of things as they are?-I might be well enough +content with the state of things as they are, only I am bound to fish +for him alone, and for no other man. + +4488. But you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't +believe he compels any man to be bound to his store entirely. + +4489. Is there really any compulsion, either direct or indirect, to +deal at his store?-No; not so far as I know. + +4490. Even although you are in his debt, you are not bound to deal +at his store?-No; I don't believe he would oblige me to do that. + +4491. But you have as much credit to deal at another man's store +as at his,-I mean you get an account opened as readily at another +man's store as at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes. + +4492. When you are in debt to Mr. Bruce, is it as easy for you to +open an account at Mr. Henderson's store, and to get goods on +credit there, as to get goods Mr. Bruce's shop?-I might find it as +easy, only I don't know whether Mr. Henderson would be inclined +to give it to me. + +4493. Do you think Mr. Henderson would not be as willing to give +it to you as Mr. Bruce's man at Voe?-I think he would not, if he +saw no way by which I was likely to pay him. + +4494. Mr. Henderson, I understand, does not buy fish?-He does. + +4495. But he knows that you would not be at liberty to sell your +fish to him?-Yes, he knows that. + +4496. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if +you were selling them to him?-I don't believe I would get any +worse. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined. + +4497. You are a fisherman at Dunrossness?-I am. + +4498. Have you a piece of ground of your own?-I am not a +landholder. I live with my sister and brother-in-law. + +4499. I have received a letter from Dunrossness, dated 30th +December and signed Henry Gilbertson: was that letter written by +you?-No. There is another person of that name living at +Dunrossness. + +4500. How do you distinguish yourself from him?-I am a +fisherman, and he is a tailor. + +4501. Is he a relation of yours?-He is my cousin. + +4502. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie to-day: do +you know from your own experience that it is in the main +correct?-So far as my experience goes, I could not say that he has +deviated a single word from the truth. + +4503. Were you, when young, employed as a beach boy?-No. I +would not go, because if they had bound me to that, I would have +left the island, as I did. + +4504. Did you leave in order to avoid being employed as a beach +boy?-It was not exactly for that; but I was past being a beach boy +before Mr. Bruce took the fishing. + +4505. You have now come back there, and employ yourself as a +fisherman in Mr. Bruce's boats?-Yes. + +4506. Are you settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; in the +same way as the landholders are settled with. + +4507. Do you run an account at the store in the same way, also?- +Yes, sometimes; but I am under no obligation to do so, because I +am a man who can get credit at any place. + +4508. Do you consider yourself at liberty to fish for any person you +please to engage with?-Not at all. Although I sit as a lodger in +my brother-in-law's house, I am under the same obligation to fish +for Mr. Bruce as one who is a landholder. + +4509. How is that?-Because if I did not do so, my brother-in-law +would be warned out for my offence. + +4510. How do you know that?-Because I have evidence to prove +it in the case of a brother of my brother-in-law's, who dried a few +hundredweight of fish for himself, and for that offence his father +was warned out, and had to pay a fine of 31s. 6d. before he got +liberty to sit. + +[Page 112] + +4511. What was his name?-James Harper, sen. + +4512. Was that long ago?-Six or seven years ago. I could not say +exactly to a season back or forward. + +4513. Did you know of that case at the time from Harper +himself?-Yes, I was acquainted with the circumstance, and the +day before I came here the man told me he had to pay the money. + +4514. So that has served you as a warning, since you came back to +live with your brother-in-law, that you must fish to Mr. Bruce?- +Yes. + +4515. Do you think you would be better off if you were at liberty +to deliver your fish to any merchant you liked?-I would. + +4516. In what way?-Because I could make more of them. + +4517. Would you get a larger price for your fish?-Yes. I would +perhaps get a larger price; but then I would have a great advantage +too by curing them for myself. + +4518. Do you think that would really be a great advantage?- +Decidedly; and I can prove it by the case of a man who has +prosecuted the fishing with me this very season, Laurence Leslie. I +was one of the crew with him. + +4519. Don't you think he was particularly fortunate last year, and +that very often your fish might be spoiled in curing, and would not +bring so good a price?-We have all cured our fish before, and we +never lost anything worth speaking of in that way. + +4520. Where have you cured your fish before?-In the same place +where I now live. + +4521. Was that before these restrictions were laid upon the +tenantry?-Yes; one year before and one year since the restrictions +were laid on. + +4522. Then you have done it since without being challenged?- +Yes; but it was by their own good-will that they allowed me to do +it. + +4523. You had some favour shown you?-Yes. + +4524. How did that happen?-They just told me they would not +disturb me, as I was a young man, and could either stop or go as I +thought fit. + +4525. If you had been a tenant, you think you would not have had +the same liberty?-No, I would not. + +4526. You say you can get the same credit at any other store that +you can get at Mr. Bruce's: do you mean that you can open an +account and get your things without paying for them until the end +of the season?-Yes. + +4527. Can you do so at Gavin Henderson's store, for instance?- +Yes; or in Lerwick. + +4528. But does the merchant with whom you would open an +account of that sort not know that you fish for Mr. Bruce, that you +are bound to deliver all your fish to him, and that you may at the +same time be running an account at his shop which would have a +preference at settlement over any account you might open in +Lerwick or at Henderson's?-I generally give them to understand +how I am circumstanced, and they advance me accordingly. + +4529. Do you generally have a large balance in cash to receive +when settling with Mr. Bruce?-I have only prosecuted the fishing +there for three years; I have settled for two of these years, and for +this one I have not settled yet. + +4530. Do you get an account when you settle with him?-Yes; I +have got a copy of it for one year. [Produces it.] + +4531. Do you get that as a matter of course when you are settling +with Mr. Bruce?-I asked for it, and he did not refuse to give it to +me. + +4532. This account is for the settlement which took place in April +last?-Yes. + +4533. It shows-June 27, 1870, to cash for self, £1; Sept. 16, to +cash for self, £1; Dec. 22, to amount to credit of Paul Smith: what +does that mean?-It was a small sum I advanced a brother-in-law +of mine to help him to pay his rent. It was entered from my +account into his, and was the same as cash. + +4534. Jan. 6, to cash for self, 10s.; to fine for swine, 2s. 6d.: what +was that fine for?-The landlord has a law that if you allow your +swine to go at large, and the officer for that purpose catches them +outside your house loose, he imposes a fine of 2s. 6d. upon you for +each offence. + +4535. Is that law in the regulations of lease, or is it just an +understood thing?-It is understood to be a law that he has made. + +4536. But you are not a landholder?-No; but the swine belonged +to me. + +4537. Then there is, to a ticket and medal for 1871, 3s.: that is for +the Fishermen's Society?-Yes. + +4538. March 15, to account per Henry Gilbertson, 3s. 4d.: what +was that?-That was a small balance that was advanced by him for +me to the other Henry Gilbertson. + +4539. To 11/2 bushels salt from Scatness, 1s. 6d., by amount from +boat's account, £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the amount of your +earnings?-Yes. + +4540. How many others were there in the boat?-There were six. + +4541. Then, to account in Grutness, £3, 8s. 21/2d., to cash, £10, 15s. +81/2d.; in all £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the whole of your account for +that year?-Yes. + +4542. Have you anything to say about the prices of the things you +get at Grutness store?-They are rather above the figure usually +paid for the same things in other parts of the country. + +4543. Have you compared the prices there with the prices at which +you can get the same articles elsewhere?-Yes; for instance of +meal. + +4544. Have you bought meal there?-Yes. + +4545. Was it entered in the account you have shown me?-Yes; +but all my account at the shop, whatever it was for, was entered in +that account in one slump sum, so that the price cannot be +distinguished from that. There are no details given there of the +shop account. + +4546. Were the details of that account read over to you?-Yes; or I +read it over. + +4547. Did you find it to be correct?-Yes, generally. + +4548. But you think the meal was charged higher than it could be +got for elsewhere?-I am sure of it. + +4549. Do you remember what price it was charged at?-Yes. + +4550. Did you take a note of it at the time?-I took a note of the +quantity at the time; but I did not know the price until settlement. + +4551. Have you a pass-book at the store?-[Produces pass-book.] +That is what I keep for myself. These [showing] are the entries for +1870, the year to which the account applies. When I knew the +price of an article when I received it from the store, I put it down +in ink; but I did not know the price of the meal, and I put it down +in pencil when I came to settle. + +4552. Here [showing] is half boll oatmeal, 11s?-Yes; and these +are the ranging prices in Lerwick for the same year: March 1870, +per boll oatmeal, 17s. 9d. May, 18s. 6d.; July, 20s.; August, 21s. + +4553. Where did you get these?-I got them from a merchant in +Lerwick this morning, Mr. John Robertson, sen. The note +containing them is in his own handwriting. + +4554. Did he refer to his books before telling you what the prices +were?-Yes, he turned up his accounts for that year. + +4555. And these are the prices at which he told you he sold meal +here?-Yes. + +4556. For cash or for credit?-I cannot say. + +4557. Have you ever been directed by Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine to +look after men who were supposed to be selling their fish to other +curers?-I have. + +4558. You shake your head in a very serious way at that: did you +not like the job?-I did not. + +4559. When was it that you were told to do that?-At last +settlement. + +4560. That would be in April 1870?-Yes. + +4561. Were there some men who were supposed to be inclined to +sell their fish to some others?-Yes. + +4562. Was any particular man named to you, or was it just a +general direction to look after them?-There was just a general +direction given to us to inform them of any men who did so. + +[Page 113] + +4563. Did you keep a lookout for that?-No; I have not gone to +look yet. + +4564. Have you seen any of the men endeavouring to sell their fish +to other people-to Messrs. Hay & Co. for instance, or to Mr. +Gavin Henderson?-I have seen them selling to Messrs. Hay & +Co. + +4565. Were these the small fish caught in the winter, or were they +part of the catch of the boats that went to the summer fishing and +the haaf fishing?-They were the small fish caught in the winter. I +never saw any of the summer fish sold by any of Mr. Bruce's +tenants to Messrs. Hay & Co. + +4566. I suppose there is a greater inclination to sell the small fish +caught in the winter for ready money than the summer fish?-Yes. + +4567. Why are the men readier to do that?-Because, when they +sell their fish to Messrs. Hay & Co., the merchant knows what he +intends to give for them; and daily and nightly, when the fish have +been delivered, they go to Hay & Co.'s store and get the value for +them, and there is no more about it. + +4568. They settle for them at once?-Yes, + +4569. In money or in goods?-Generally in goods; but Messrs. +Hay's man will give them a shilling or so; whereas, if they had to +go to Mr. Bruce's store with them, they would not know what they +were to get until the settlement, neither would they get the goods +at so low a figure. + +4570. They get the goods cheaper at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes, a little. + +4571. Is there any other article than meal the price of which you +have compared with what it could be got for at other stores?-Not +particularly, because I have not had much dealings at the store, as I +generally dealt with other merchants. + +4572. Is there anything else you wish to add to what you have said +or to what the other men have said?-Nothing particular. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN HARPER, examined. + +4573. Are you a fisherman at Lingord, Dunrossness?-I am. + +4574. Do you hold land there under Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?- +Yes. + +4575. Do you hold it subject to the condition of delivering your +fish to Mr. Bruce in the same way that the other men have spoken +to?-Yes. + +4576. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, Laurence +Smith, and Henry Gilbertson?-Yes. + +4577. Have they described correctly the way in which you deal at +Mr. Bruce's shop for goods?-Quite correctly, so far as my +experience goes. + +4578. Do you deal in the same way?-Yes; but I deal very little +there. + +4579. Where do you get your goods?-I get them at different +places, but my chief dealings are at Gavin Henderson's. I have +also some dealings at Mr. Bruce's store at Boddam, kept by Henry +Isbister, which is close beside where I live. + +4580. Do you generally receive a large balance at the end of the +year in cash?-Yes, I am always paid in cash. + +4581. How much of a balance in cash did you get last year?-I +cannot remember exactly; and I have no copy of my account. + +4582. Was it £5 or £6, or more?-I think it was £5 or £6, and the +rest of my earnings went to pay my land rent and shop accounts. + +4583. Have you made any comparison as to the prices of goods at +the Boddam shop and the prices at which you could get them +elsewhere?-I have not made a strict comparison, but the Boddam +shop and the other shops do not differ much in most things. + +4584. Have you anything to add to what has been said by the other +witnesses?-We would be very happy to have the liberty of curing +our fish ourselves. + +4585. Have you tried that?-Yes; I have tried it in former times +before I was taken under Mr. Bruce. + +4586. Where was that?-At the same place where I am fishing yet. + +4587. You had your liberty then?-Yes. + +4588. Do you think that in those days you made a larger profit on +your fish than you do now?-I did; but there would be a difficulty +in doing that now, unless we had the power of using the beaches to +dry our fish on. If we did not have that power, we could make +nothing of it at all + +4589. In those days the price of fish would be quite different from +what it is now? It would be much lower when you used to cure +your own fish?-In the former part of the time when I used to cure +them it was lower than it is now, and indeed it was rather lower all +through. I don't know exactly what those that cured their own fish +this year have got for dried fish, but I think I got 10s. 6d. per cwt. +of dried saith of my own curing during the last year when I cured +them. + +4590. What is the price now for cured fish?-I have heard that it is +12s. + +4591. I suppose there was not much difference in those days in the +price of cured fish?-No; but it did differ according to seasons. +Every season was not exactly alike. + +4592. Would that be twelve years ago?-Yes. + +4593. In what way have you calculated that you would make more +profit upon the fish of your own curing than is paid to you by Mr. +Bruce?-I have just made a calculation in my own mind according +to the quantity of fish I caught then and what I catch now. It is +merely a calculation of my own, and I do not say it is exactly +correct. + +4594. Did you make that calculation lately?-No; only I have +always been of that opinion since I was obliged to deliver my fish +to Mr. Bruce. + +4595. Have you not made a note of the value of your green fish, +the expense of materials for curing, and the value of the labour +that you would require to put upon them, in order to ascertain +whether you would get as much for your cured fish as you do for +your green, or more?-I have paid some attention to that matter; +but of course, in any case where a man dries his fish for himself, +he must expect to have a little more work than he has when +delivering them green. There would thus be extra expense for my +own labour. + +4596. There would also be the price for salt, and other things +required, in the curing?-Yes; we would have to calculate all +these things. + +4597. Would you not be at a disadvantage from not having vats +and other apparatus suitable for curing?-There would be rather +a disadvantage in that way now, but there was not such a +disadvantage formerly, because we had these things; and when we +were stopped from curing for ourselves, we had to dispose of them +as we had no use for them. + +4598. Did each fisherman commonly possess these things?-Yes, +at that time. + +4599. Or was it each boat's crew who owned these implements?- +Yes. + +4600. Each boat's crew had a supply of apparatus for curing their +fishing?-Yes, for their own use. They generally had a vat and +other instruments according to what they required. + +4601. Do you think they were as skilful in the use of these +instruments as the curers are now?-I don't think they were very +much behind, because the curer who cures the fish we catch now +was formerly a fisherman, as I am myself. Further than the +experience of years may have taught him, he knew nothing better +about it than I did, for I cured fish when I was a beach boy, and I +was also the head in it all through, until I was stopped from curing. + +4602. In forming that opinion with regard to the profit which you +would have by curing your own fish, have you taken into account +the risk of having your own fish spoiled in the curing?-Of course +we must run that risk. + +4603. Then you might gain something in one year, but in another +you might lose to some extent in the [Page 114] curing?-That is +quite possible; but still, in the experience I formerly had, the loss +was nothing to speak of. + +4604. For how many years did you cure your own fish?-For a +good many, perhaps five years. There is one thing I should like to +state which has not been mentioned already; but I don't exactly +know how far it will fall within your inquiry. That is about the +days' works which are required from us in addition to our land +rent. + +4605. What do you mean by days' works?-It is labour imposed +upon the tenants by the landlord. They must work three days' +work in summer. We don't exactly work these days' works in +summer where we live; but we are bound to carry a boat of peats +to those who live near Sumburgh, which stands in place of our +three days in summer. Then we have to work three days in +harvest, and three days in vore (<i.e.> spring). Thirty hours, if I +remember right, is what they exact; and we get nothing for it, not +even a supply of victuals. We have to carry our victuals with us +when we are to do our work there. + +4606. Is not that really part of the rent which you pay for your +land?-We don't suppose so, because our land is valued, and we +have to pay for it in cash, or it is taken off our account. + +4607. You mean that you have to pay your rent in cash, and to give +the days' works besides?-Yes; and we have to pay a poultry fowl +for each merk of land. + +4608. Is not that really just part of your bargain for the land?-It is +the way we have done hitherto. + +4609. If you were agreed, would not the landlord commute these +services and payments into a money payment. You might make a +bargain to give him so much money, and thus get rid of these +things?-I have never disputed these things; but I believe they +have been spoken of to him, and he does not appear willing to +relieve us of the burden, which we think is rather hard one. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE LESLIE, examined. + +4610. Are you a fisherman and tenant under Mr. Bruce at Mill of +Garth, Dunrossness?-I am a fisherman, but not exactly a tenant. + +4611. You don't hold land?-It is much the same. The land is +held in my father's name, and I live with him. + +4612. Are you bound to fish to Mr. Bruce, as being one of your +father's family?-Yes. + +4613. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and the +other witnesses from Dunrossness. Do you think it is generally +correct?-I think it is generally correct; but Laurence Smith did +not appear to know much about the shop at Boddam, except for +ropes and iron, and so on, which is much about the same price as +elsewhere. + +4614. Can you say anything more about that shop than he did?- +The tea, cotton, canvas, and moleskins are all much higher there +than at Henderson's. I have no note of the price at Henderson's; +but I have notes of the prices at Boddam in my pass-books. + +4615. What is the price of moleskins at the Boddam shop?-I +don't know if I have the price of any moleskins here. + +4616. Is this [showing] your pass-book at the Boddam store?- +Yes. + +4617. Is it kept by the shopkeeper there?-It is kept by Isbister. I +took it back and forward every time I got goods, and had them +entered there. That book is for 1868. + +4618. I see it is for Hans Leslie, and not for George Leslie. Is your +father's name Hans?-Yes. + +4619. This book only comes down to February 1869. Have you +not kept a pass-book since then?-Yes; but it is not settled yet. + +4620. Is that account from March 1867 to February 1869 +[showing] not settled?-Yes, it is settled; but the account for 1870 +is not settled yet. I have it in another pass-book, because this one +had fallen aside. + +4621. And you have now another one in the hands of the +shopkeeper?-Yes. + +4622. Do you know the prices which were charged against you for + goods in 1870?-No. I have seen them in the pass-book when I +had it at home; but don't remember what they were. + +4623. But the settlement for 1870 is past?-Yes; it was 1871 I was +thinking of. + +4624. But there is nothing in this book for 1870?-No. This +[producing another book] is the book for 1870 up till the +settlement of 1871. + +4625. Have you no pass-book in your possession later than that?- +No. + +4626. Show me some of the things in that book which are charged +higher to you than you could have got them elsewhere?-I say that +tea and cotton are generally charged higher. I have had very little +cotton from that shop, but I have asked the prices, and found them +much higher than at Henderson's, so that I took what cotton I +wanted from Henderson's shop, and not from the shop at Boddam. + +4627. Were you quite at liberty to deal at Henderson's shop if you +liked?-Yes; we were at liberty in the way that some of the other +men have described. If we did not have the prospect of paying +what we were due, then we did not want to run into debt to a +number of men. + +4628. Have you generally ready money that you can go to +Henderson's with?-No. + +4629. What is the reason of that? Is it on account of the long +settlement?-That is a thing which has something to do with it, +and sometimes I have not had money to get at settlement; but +when I asked for an advance from Mr. Bruce, I always got it. + +4630. I see from this book that cotton is 1s. a yard at the Boddam +shop: I suppose that was the price then?-It has sometimes been +1s., and it has sometimes been higher. + +4631. I see there is tea at 10d. a quarter: is that the best tea they +sell at that store?-They seldom have any but one sort. + +4632. Do you generally get all the articles you want at the Boddam +shop?-Yes. + +4633. Would you like to have a greater number of things to choose +from than there are there?-No. We do not take anything there +except what we cannot do without. We wish rather to take it at +another place. + +4634. Only you cannot always get credit at another place?-I +never was refused credit, only I did not like to run a heavy account +with another man who was having no profit but upon his goods. + +4635. Would you have been more ready to deal with Henderson if +you had been at liberty to sell your fish to him too?-Yes. + +4636. Is there a fair price charged for soap at the Boddam shop?- +There is not very much difference of price upon it. The soap +generally is pretty fair at Boddam. + +4637. I see here an entry of 11/2 lines, 3s. 5d.: are these lines for +your fishings?-Yes. + +4638. Is the price of lines there as moderate as at other places?- +The lines differ in quality. Sometimes we have them as good there +as in other places, and at other times not so good. + +4639. But what about the price of them? Are they as cheap there +as at other places?-If the quality is as good, they are. [Produces +another pass-book.] + +4640. Is this the book in which you enter the fish as they are +delivered?-Yes. + +4641. Who enters them there?-Myself. It is example of how we +mark down the fish. That book contained an account which I had +running with Gavin Henderson in 1867, and I afterwards used it as +a fish book with Mr. Bruce. + +4642. You enter the fish in this book, and Mr. Bruce's factor +enters them in a book of his own besides?-Yes. + +4643. Do all the boats' crews keep books in which they enter their +fish in the same way?-So far as I know they do. + +[Page 115] + +4644. Is that the only way you have of checking the amount of fish +you get?-Yes. + +4645. At the end of the year you see the quantity you have +delivered as it is entered in the landlord's book, and you see that +you get credit for it in your account with Mr. Bruce?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT HALCROW, examined. + +4646. You are a fisherman at Lasettar, in Dunrossness, and you +hold land from Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes. + +4647. You are bound to deliver your fish to his factor, and you +settle at the end of the year in the same way as William Goudie +and the other men have described?-Yes. + +4648. You have heard all their evidence?-Yes. + +4649. Is there anything you wish to add to it or correct in it?- +Nothing. + +4650. Do you know anything about the knitting which is done by +the women in Dunrossness?-There is a little knitting done in my +family. It might be more agreeable to some people to be paid in +cash than in goods; but others again say that if they did not get the +same price in cash for their hosiery as they get in truck, they would +not be gainers. + +4651. Do they want the goods they get for the hosiery?-Yes; and +they might not get the same price for their knitting in money as +they get for it in barter. + +4652. Do you know the price which they get in goods from the +merchants in Lerwick?-Yes. + +4653. Would they not get the same goods at a lower price in +money, at any of the shops in your neighbourhood?-I am not +aware of that. + +4654. You have never heard them say that?-No. With regard to +the evidence which has been given by the other men, I may be +allowed to say that perhaps I have had a little more experience +than some of them, but the statements which they have given have +just been what I would have made myself. + +4655. How long have you been on the property?-For eleven or +twelve years. + +4656. Did you receive a notice, when young Mr. Bruce became +tacksman, that you were expected to fish for him?-I did not +receive any notice; but I was missed; he passed over me. + +4657. Why was that?-I was taking in uncultivated ground to build +a house upon, and I did not pay rent then. + +4658. Were you aware that a notice of that kind was given to the +tenants?-Yes. + +4659. Is there any one here who received that notice?-I don't +think any one received the notice individually, but there was a +public notice that they were bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, and that +they would be removed if they did not do so. + +4660. How was that notice given?-By a bill placed in a public +place for the tenants at large to see. + +4661. Did you see it?-No, I did not see it. With regard to the +Boddam shop, I have had dealings there, and also with Gavin +Henderson; but there are things I require which are not kept in the +Boddam shop at all. + +4662. What articles do you want that you cannot get there?-I +want some kind of clothing which they do not keep, and several +other things; but the things they have, such as tea, tobacco, cotton +and canvas, I find to be somewhat dearer than at Mr. Henderson's +or in Lerwick. + +4663. How much dearer is the tobacco?-It will be a penny or +twopence a quarter lb. + +4664. Have you bought tobacco at both places?-Yes. + +4665. What have you to say with regard to the tea?-It is from 4d. +to 8d. dearer per pound. + +4666. Have you tried it at both places also?-Yes. + +4667. Do you think you get the same quality at both?-It is the +same quality. I have had to pay sometimes 9d. and sometimes +10d. per quarter for tea at the Boddam shop; and when I went to +Mr. Henderson's shop, I got the same tea for 8d. + +4668. So far as you could judge, was the tea at both places of the +same quality?-Yes, so far as I could judge, it was. Then for the +cotton I would pay 2d., and sometimes more than that, per yard +more in the Boddam shop than in Gavin Henderson's, or at other +places. + +4669. But if the prices are so much higher at the Boddam shop +than elsewhere, why do you go there when you say you are not +obliged in any way to take goods from the Boddam shop? Why do +you not go to Gavin Henderson's for them?-I am obliged to go to +the Boddam shop and take my goods there if I have no money in +my pocket to buy them elsewhere. + +4670. Does that often happen?-Perhaps not very often with me, +but it happens as a general thing among many of the men. I +believe there are as many men who have to go to Mr. Bruce's +store, and take their goods there, in consequence of the want of +money to pay for them at other places, as there are who can go and +open accounts with other merchants and pay them yearly. + +4671. Is there anything else you can say about that?-There is +nothing more concerning that; but I have one thing more to say +concerning our bondage, or our liberty, in fishing to Mr. Bruce. I +have never had any help in paying rent or purchasing meal for my +living, or such things as I required for clothing, except from what I +could earn myself. I have sometimes had little clear money to get, +and sometimes I have been from £2 to £6 behind in my accounts +with Mr. Bruce, but he never charged me anything for that. I was +fishing to him, and obedient to him, and he never interfered with +me until my earnings paid up my debt account; but he would give +me supplies although was in his debt, and if I got money from him, +even when I was in his debt, I was at perfect liberty to go where I +liked for the goods I wanted. If I ran up an account at any other +shop, he gave me money and I settled it; and then at settlement +time, if I had any money remaining to come to me, I got it in cash +after he had deducted the value of any goods I might have got from +his store. + +4672. But when you were in his debt at the end of the year, in the +way you have stated, were you obliged to go to his store for your +provisions, and your supplies of cotton and clothing?-I would be +obliged to do so, unless I could work at any other trade, or do any +other thing during the winter by which I could earn money to +purchase things at other stores. I may work outside, or do a little +mason work, in order to get some money; and he will not bind me +so much as if he were to see me earning nothing, but he would +allow me to keep that money, and go to other stores with it, and +purchase what I required. If I have a cow or a horse to sell, I can +sell it, and he will never inquire or push me for the balance. I can +get my money for it, and go to other stores for my meal and several +things. + +4673. If you sell a beast off your farm, while you are in debt to +him, he does not object to you applying the price as you like?-He +has made no objection; but when a man is in debt to him, he +expects to get the first offer of it. + +4674. He expects that a man who is in his debt will offer his cow +or his pony to him first?-Yes, he looks for that; he has always +expected it. + +4675. When that is done, who fixes the price?-He will state his +price; and if the owner is dissatisfied with it, he will give him a +chance of offering it at public sale. + +4676. And when it is offered at public sale, what is done then?- +The sale is generally in Mr. Bruce's own hand, and the purchaser +gives him the money; and then the owner who disposes of the +animal will go to him if he is in want of supplies, and he will +probably get them. + +4677. Are there sales in your district at certain times?-Yes. + +[Page 116] + +4678. Where do these take place?-At Dunrossness, near the +church; twice a year, in the spring, and in the fall. + +4679. Is it at these sales that you have a chance of selling your +beasts, if you do not agree with Mr. Bruce about the price?-Yes. + +4680. And at these sales is there perfect liberty to any person to +bid?-Yes. + +4681. You can sell them to any person who bids a higher price +than the laird offers?-Yes; but the conditions of sale are that the +purchaser has to pay the money to Mr. Bruce. + +4682. Is that one of the conditions and articles of roup which are +read over at the commencement of the sale?-Yes. + +4683. Does that condition apply to every lot that is sold, or only to +lots that belong to men that are in Mr. Bruce's debt?-It applies to +every lot that is sold. On all the properties there, on Simbister, and +Mr. Grierson's estate and Sumburgh estate the cattle are called in; +people who have cattle to sell are asked to bring them in to the +sale. + +4684. But nobody is obliged to expose their cattle at these sales +unless they please?-There have been cases where we were +obliged to dispose of them: for instance, if a man was very deeply +in debt, he would be so far forced to bring his cattle and sell them; +and the money went into Mr. Bruce's hands, and was put to the +man's credit. + +4685. You mean that it was credited to the man's account that was +settled at the end of the year?-Yes. When young Mr. Bruce first +began to take charge of the Sumburgh estate he wished to have all +the tenants clear; and for that purpose he published a sale, and +forced one of the tenants to bring his effects there, in order that his +debts might be paid off. At the sale, Mr. Bruce himself appeared +and gave a far higher price than the current price for the material +which was being sold, in order to bring the man out of debt. + +4686. Who was that man?-Malcolm Irvine, Lasettar. That is the +only case of that kind I am acquainted with; but I believe there are +more cases of the same kind throughout the parish, where Mr. +Bruce paid a higher price for the articles than the market value of +them, in order to bring the men out of debt. Of course, that was a +favour to the men. + +4687. Then, these sales are always fair transactions?-I think they +are fair, so far as we can discern, because they do not differ in any +way from other sales throughout the island. The terms and +conditions of roup are the same at them all. + +4688. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is only forty +days' warning given before Martinmas. No doubt that may be well +enough for tenants in a town like Lerwick, who hold nothing +except a room to live in, but it is very disagreeable for a tenant +holding a small piece of land as we do. As soon as our crop is +taken in, we must start work immediately, and prepare the land for +next season. We have to make provision for manure, and collect +our peats, and prepare stuff for thatching our houses, and perhaps +by Martinmas we have expended from £6 to £10 worth of labour +and expense on our little farms. In that case, it is a very hard thing +for us to be turned out of our holdings after receiving only forty +days' notice, and perhaps only getting £1, or £2, for all that labour. +Now, what I would suggest that instead of that short notice we +should be entitled to receive a longer notice, perhaps six or nine +months before the term, that we are to be turned out. + +4689. Do you think you would be more at liberty to dispose of +your fish, and to deal at any shop you pleased, if you were entitled +to that longer warning?-I don't think the warning would alter +anything with regard to that; but if I knew that I was to be turned +out at Martinmas, I would probably start fishing earlier, and I +might have a larger price to get for them instead of working upon +my land. + +4690. But you can be punished more easily by your landlord for +selling your fish to another man, when he can turn you out on forty +days' warning, than if he could only do it on six or eight months' +warning?-I think it would be much the same with regard to that. + +4691. You don't think that would make any difference as to the +fishing?-It might make a little difference, because if I received +my warning in March, and knew that I was to leave at Martinmas, +if I saw that I was to have a better price for my fish from another, I +would not fish to my landlord at all; but I would go to any man I +would get the best price from. + +4692. Do you think you would be better off if you had your fish +paid for as they are delivered?-I don't think that would serve +me any better. It would serve young men who are not landholders +better; but I don't think it would serve landholders better than to +allow the price to lie, and to settle once in a season, because +sometimes our crops are so scanty that we have only perhaps +two parts or three-fourths of a regular supply of meal for our +living; and if I got the price of my fish paid to me every time when +I came ashore, or on the Saturday night, we might perhaps live +comfortably for awhile, but then at Martinmas, when our rents +were due, and our fishing earnings were spent, we would be in a +hard case, because where would our rents come from? + +4693. Do you think you would be likely to spend your earnings as +you got them?-In some cases that would be so, because +occasionally we have to live on a very small allowance of +provisions, perhaps one-half or three-fourths, and we suffer from +that. I think it is better if the money for our fishing is preserved +for a time in our landlord's hands; because, in the first place, we +like to have our rents paid. + +4694. Would it be any advantage to you to have the price of your +fish fixed at the beginning of the season?-It might and it might +not, because here in Shetland we are paid for our fish according to +a currency. The principal curers in the country arrange what the +price is to be, and, so far as I know, they have it in their own +power to make the currency whatever they think fit. + +4695. Do you think the current price is fairly fixed?-I cannot +judge of that, nor can any one outside, because I don't know what +has been realized for the fish in the south. It is a matter which +rests upon their own conscience, whether the merchants fix a fair +current price or not. + +4696. But you think they have the fixing of it?-Yes, they do fix it. + +4697. Do you think it right that they should have the fixing of it, +and that you should have nothing to say to it, when it is according +to that price that you are paid?-We have no experience in the +matter, or else we should have a voice in it. + +4698. If you were at liberty to cure and sell your own fish, would +you not have something to say in fixing the market price at which +the fish were to be paid?-I think we would. + +4699. Supposing the price of your fish were settled at the +beginning of the season, and that you knew then what it was to be, +do you think you would manage your purchases during the season +better than you do now, according as you took a large or a small +quantity of fish?-I don't think so. + +4700. If you were only taking a small take of fish, you would see, +as the season went on, that you could not have a large balance at +the end of the year?-I don't think that would matter much for me. + It might do for a family in which there were two or three men but +for a man who held a certain tack of land, and had to support a +family, I don't think it would be any advantage. In my case, there +is only myself earning anything, and it takes the greater part of my +fishing, year by year, to pay for my meal and land rent. + +4701. I suppose what you mean is, that you are obliged to live at a +certain rate of expenditure, and that you cannot reduce that rate +any lower, however poor your fishing may be?-No, I cannot. + +4702. So that you must take the bad years and the good years, and +make up in a good year for what you have gone behind in a bad +one?-Yes, that is what I mean. + +[Page 117] + +4703. Therefore the present system suits you as well as any +other?-It does. + +4704. You could not economize more, although you knew what +you were to receive at the end of the year?-I don't see that I +could. + +4705. And you could not manage your money any better, although +you had it in your hands, and could spend it in Lerwick, or in any +other store, except that at Boddam?-I don't see that I could. I +have not taken any meal from Mr. Bruce now for three years, but I +have taken a good deal of things out of his stores. + +4706. Have you got your meal from your own ground?-No. +During the past season I had to buy very little; but since I came to +the place I am now in, I have sometimes had to buy seven, and +eight, and nine months' provisions, besides what my own labour +upon my farm could yield. + +4707. Where did you buy your meal then?-At that time I had +some from Mr. Bruce, and some from other places. + +4708. But I am talking of the last three years, when you did not +buy any of it from Mr. Bruce?-I have had it from Lerwick, and +also from a store at Sand Lodge. Lebidden is the name of the +place where the store is. + +4709. Whose store is that?-Thomas Tullochs's. + +4710. Why did you buy it from these stores rather than from the +store at Boddam?-Because I could get it cheaper; I would pay +some money for it at these other stores. + +4711. What did you get it for there?-I don't recollect the price. + +4712. I suppose the price varied?-Yes. + +4713. And you got it at that price by paying it at the time you got +it?-Yes; I got it at as low a price as it could be got anywhere. +Besides, I took weaker qualities of grain as being cheaper than +what Mr. Bruce had, such as second flour or third flour, and so on, +when Mr. Bruce, would have had nothing but barleymeal and +oatmeal. + +4714. Does he only keep one quality of meal at Boddam store?- +He keeps more than one quality, because he has had grain from his +own farm to supply his fishermen and tenants with; and he has also +had Orkney meal there, which was cheaper than Scotch meal. + +4715. But you say that you could get weaker qualities than what +Mr. Bruce kept. Do you mean that the qualities were inferior?- +Yes. + +4716. Were they inferior to any that Mr. Bruce had?-Not to what +grew on his own farm, but to any that he had at that time, or what +he generally kept. + +4717. But I am talking of the last three years during which you +have had none from Mr. Bruce. Were the qualities at the other +stores inferior to what Mr. Bruce kept?-When I was having none +from Mr. Bruce I did not know exactly what qualities he had. + +4718. But you knew that what you were getting was cheaper than +what you could get at his store?-Yes, I knew that. + +4719. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No; I think that is +all. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, recalled. + +4720. I believe you saw the bill, which was put up when Mr. Bruce +came, to which the witness Halcrow referred?-Yes, I saw it. +There was a man sent round among the tenants with a letter, and +he read it to them. + +4721. Who was the man?-He is dead: it was John Harper, Virkie. + +4722. To whom was the letter addressed?-To the tenants +generally. Sometimes when he came to a town, he called the +tenants together and read it to them; and when he met one of the +tenants by himself, he just read it over to him. + +4723. Were the tenants called together at Trosswick, where you +live?-Yes. + +4724. Was the letter read over to the whole of them at once?- +Yes. + +4725. Did you hear it?-Yes. + +4726. Do you remember its terms?-I do not; but the letter was +from old Mr. Bruce, and the substance of it was, that he had given +us over into the hands of his son. + +4727. As tacksman?-He did not say whether it was as tacksman +or not, but he said that the penalty of our not fishing to him would +be that we should get our warning. + +4728. Was it stated in the letter that young Mr. Bruce was setting +up as a fish-curer?-I could not exactly say, but it was known to +the tenants that he was going to do so. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, recalled. + +4729. I believe you were at Fair Isle three weeks ago?-Yes; three +or four weeks ago, with a smack belonging to Mr. Bruce. + +4730. Was that for the purpose of delivering supplies of provisions +to the people on the island?-It was for the purpose of landing two +men on the island, one of whom was to be a farmer, and the other +was a mason to build dykes. + +4731. Had you been there before?-Never. + +4732. Did you meet with any of the people while you were there, +and talk with them about the way in which their shop was +supplied?-Yes, I met almost all of them, and I got some +information about how they deal at the shop, because they inquired +at me at what prices the articles were sold in Shetland. + +4733. Are the people there supplied with provisions and goods +from the shop at Dunrossness?-No; there is a shop on the island +which is supplied from the shop at Dunrossness. + +4734. Do you know anything: about the prices of goods at the shop +on Fair Isle?-There was a man belonging to the island-I don't +know his name-who told me that he had paid 1s. 4d. per quarter +for tobacco. There was a general complaint that the prices were +above the currency charged in Shetland. + +4735. Did the people seem to think that there was a better way in +which they could be supplied?-Yes; they seemed to think that if +they had their liberty to sell their fish, to the best advantage, they +could supply themselves from Orkney or Shetland with goods at a +cheaper rate than they could get them for in Mr. Bruce's store in +Fair Isle. + +4736. Do you think anybody would be willing to go to Fair Isle to +buy fish and sell goods?-There were plenty would do so if they +had the chance. Mr. James Smith, of Hill Cottage, Sandwick +parish, used to go there, but he was stopped from doing so by Mr. +Bruce when he bought the island. + +4737. Did the people on the island speak as if they were worse +used than they had been formerly?-They spoke as if they got their +articles cheaper from Mr. Smith than they could get them now. + +4738. How long were you on the island?-I was there for eight +days, and I was in almost every house. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS SMITH, examined. + +4739. You are the master of a smack which sometimes visits Fair +Isle for Mr. Bruce?-Yes. + +4740. Do you take a quantity of goods to the shop there from the +shop at Dunrossness?-Yes, sometimes from the shop at +Dunrossness, and sometimes the [Page 118] goods are ordered +from the south; and we get them from the steamer at Lerwick, and +take them direct to the island. + +4741. Do you know anything about the prices at which these goods +are charged at the shop on the island?-No; I could not speak +positively about that. + +4742. Do you know whether the people on the island are satisfied +with the supplies which you take to them?-They are satisfied +with them so far; but they object to the price realized for their fish +as being lower than what is paid in Shetland. I think that is about +the only thing they object to. Of course they also think that the +prices for the goods are dear; but still they are not so much +dissatisfied with that. + +4743. I suppose it involves a little expense to get the goods carried +from the mainland to Fair Isle?-Of course it does. + +4744. There is a risk from the weather in taking them there?-Yes; +there is a risk of damage, and there is not a safe harbour there. + +4745. Does any one trade to Fair Isle except your smack?-No, not +regularly. There are some people who go in occasionally, but +there are no others who go very often from Shetland. There is one +boat belonging to James Rendall, of Westray, in Orkney, that goes +occasionally. + +4746. Is it within your knowledge that other traders are not +allowed to go to Fair Isle to sell their goods there?-Yes; I believe +the people are not allowed to buy from them. They do not exactly +stop them; but I think they tried to do it. + +4747. Have you known that being done at any time when you were +at the island?-I think I have been there twice when James +Rendall was there; and he chiefly sold in the night time when I +was asleep, and I did not know what was going on. + +4748. Why was that?-I don't know. I never asked him why he +did it. The people are scarcely allowed either to sell to him or buy +from him. + +4749. Was it not because the factor forbade him to sell to the +people at all that he dealt with them during the night?-Of course +the factor forbade him from dealing with them, and he would have +noticed if Rendall had dealt with them in the day time. I don't +think the people were so much stopped from buying from him as +they were stopped from selling to him. They were not allowed to +sell any cattle or horse, or anything they had, to him. + +4750. How do you know that?-Because I saw it myself. I have +heard the factor and the people talking about it, and I know they +were not allowed to sell. + +4751. Have you heard the factor forbidding them to sell their cattle +to Rendall?-Yes; they have told me themselves that it was £2 of a +fine if they sold anything to him. + +4752. Whom have you heard the factor forbidding to sell to +Rendall?-I have heard the factor talking to lots of them about it. +There was one, Thomas Wilson for instance; he was forbidden. + +4753. Do you know that he wished to sell cattle to Rendall?-Yes; +I know that he had a cow last year for which Rendall offered him +£5, 10s. on the island, and he was afraid to sell her to him. The +factor told him he had better not sell her. + +4754. Was it in your presence that he told him so?-Yes; and +Wilson came over to Shetland with us; I don't remember what he +got for the cow here, but I think it was £4, 1s. + +4755. You brought the cow over to Shetland yourself?-Yes. + +4756. Who was the factor?-Jerome Wilson. + +4757. Did he tell Thomas Wilson that he must not sell his cow +because he was in arrear of rent, or in debt?-No; he was not in +debt; he had some cash to get at the time of settlement. + +4758. How do you know that?-Because he told me himself. I +went home with him to his house, when he settled last summer,-I +think in June or July. + +4759. Do you know of your own knowledge that the cow +afterwards sold for £4, 1s. in Shetland?-I think that was what it +sold for. + +4760. Did you see it sold?-No; but Thomas Wilson told me about +it. I was at the sale that day. I was not present when the cow was +sold, but Wilson told me about it at night. + +4761. Do you buy hosiery from the Fair Isle people?-The factor, +Mr. Wilson, buys it for Mr. Bruce. + +4762. Do you sometimes bring it over here?-Yes. + +4763. You don't know anything about the way in which the people +are paid for it?-I don't know. + +4764. Is Jerome Wilson likely to be in Shetland soon?-I don't +know whether he is or not, but I don't think it. He just buys up the +hosiery, and then sends it over to Mr. Bruce. I think the people get +goods chiefly for it; but I am not sure. I have seen it sold, and seen +them getting goods for it. + +4765. Have you seen anybody else buying it on the island? Have +you ever bought any of it?-No; not much. + +4766. But you have bought a little?-I have bought a pair of +stockings; that was all. + +4767. Did you pay cash for them?-Yes. + +4768. What do the people do with their money in Fair Isle?-I am +sure I don't know; they have not much to do with it there. + +4769. They cannot purchase goods with it?-They can purchase +goods; because when we are going in with the smack, they are +always going out and in, and they are glad to get as much money +as possible. There are none of the people out of the island just +now that I know of. + +4770. When will you be going back to it?-Not until the month of +April, or the 1st of May. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT MALCOLMSON, examined. + +4771. You are a fisherman and tenant on Mr. Bruce's lands at +Northtown of Exnaboe?-I am. + +4772. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and +Laurence Smith?-Yes. + +4773. Does it give a fair account of the way in which you deal in +fish and purchase goods with Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes, it +gives an accurate account of it, so far as my experience goes. + +4774. Were you a beach boy when you were young?-Not to Mr. +Bruce. At that time the men had their liberty and cured their fish +for themselves. + +4775. Do you know anything about the way in which beach boys +are dealt with now?-No. + +4776. None of your family or friends are beach boys?-None. + +4777. Have you known of any case in which a man was turned out, +or threatened to be turned out of his ground for selling his fish to +another than the proprietor?-Yes; I know one case. That was the +case of Thomas Harper, James Harper's son, who was referred to +before. + +4778. That was a good many years ago?-Yes. + +4779. Is there anything you wish to add to what has been said by +the other men?-Nothing, so far as I remember. + +4780. Do you think you would make any more of your fish if you +were allowed to cure them for yourself?-We generally think so. + +4781. Have you ever made any calculation about that?-According +to hearsay from other quarters, and contrasting our case with +theirs, we have a rough idea that we would make more on the +whole. + +4782. Do you think there is any disadvantage to the men in having +such long settlements as you have at Dunrossness?-In some cases +there is. + +4783. Do you think it would be better for you to be paid for your +fish as they are delivered?-In some cases that would do very +well, but in other cases it would not. Some men and some families +would, so to speak, go beyond their income; and at the end of the +season, when their rent was due, they would have nothing to +[Page 119] give to their landlord. They would not have saved any +money for the rent. + +4784. But is it not the case that fishermen nowadays save a good +deal of money?-Some do, and some do not. + +4785. Have not a good many of your friends large deposits in the +bank?-No; that is not the case with many. + +4786. Are you sure of that?-I would not be positive; but so far as +I know, it is not the case. + +4787. I suppose a man does not speak very much about his bank +account down about Dunrossness, when he has one?-No; but I +don't think it is very common for them there to have one. + +4788. Do you know anything about the price of meal at the shop +where you deal?-I have an idea of it, but only at settling time. + +4789. At which shop do you deal?-At Grutness store. + +4790. Do you run up a large account in the course of the year?- +Generally I do. + +4791. Does your account take off most of the price of your fish?- +Yes, the most of it. + +4792. You only get a small balance at the end of the year?-Yes, if +I have it to get; but if not, Mr. Bruce is kind enough to make me a +small advance as I need it. + +4793. Of course that is on the footing that you are to fish to him +next year?-We understand so. + +4794. Do you think you would get your meal cheaper at another +store than at Grutness, if you had liberty to deal at another store?- +I think so, according to what other people say. + +4795. Have you inquired the price of meal at Messrs. Hay's shop +there?-I have not inquired about it myself. + +4796. What do you pay for your meal at Grutness store?-It varies +according to the quality and the current price of meal. + +4797. Do you pay the same price for it all the year round?-Yes. + +4798. Is that generally the price which prevails at the end of the +year at settling time, or is it an average of the prices that have +prevailed during the whole year?-When it all comes to be +summed up, it is generally a little in advance, on the whole, of +what we could buy meal for at another shop,-for instance, at Hay +and Co.'s. + +4799. Is the quality of it as good as you could get at Hay & +Co.'s?-The quality is good. + +4800. Is there anything else you want to add to the statements of +the other witnesses?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, THOMAS AITKEN, examined. + +4801. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, in Dunrossness?-Yes. + +4802. Are you a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce?-I am only +tenant of a room, not of any land. I hold a house there. + +4803. Are you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes; I +signed an agreement to fish for him when he took the fishing in his +own hand at Grutness, eleven or twelve years ago. + +4804. Were you a landholder at that time?-No; but I was living in +my father's house, and I was bound to fish for Mr. Bruce like the +rest. + +4805. What was the document you were asked to sign?-The +general tenor of his statement was, that he was to give the current +price, and I was bound to fish for him while I was living on his +estate. + +4806. Have you any objection to adhere to that bargain?-I am of +the opinion that, if I had had my freedom, I might have made a +little more from my fish than I have done. + +4807. But would you not have your freedom simply by removing +to another place?-Not in Dunrossness. + +4808. You mean not on his land?-No, nor on Mr. Grierson's +land. I would be bound to fish for Grierson under the same rules if +I were to remove to his property. + +4809. Do you live with your father still?-No; my father is an old +man, and he has ceased to hold land. + +4810. Do you consider yourself still bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, +even although your father does not hold any land from him?-Yes; +I consider I am bound while I am living on his estate. + +4811. Have you any copy of the agreement which you signed?- +No. + +4812. Where did you sign it?-In the shop at Grutness. + +4813. Who asked you to sign it?-Mr. Bruce's factor, or his +farmer who was in Sumburgh at that time who was sent round +among the tenants with a letter from old Mr. Bruce, intimating to +them that his son was to take the district into his own hands, that +they were to fish for him, and that any one refusing to fish was to +leave. + +4814. That is the letter which Laurence Smith has spoken of?- +Yes. + +4815. But did you sign anything?-Yes, I signed a paper, stating +that I would rather stay and fish for him than that I would flit. + +4816. Was that after the letter had been sent round among the +tenants?-Yes. + +4817. How long after?-A few days perhaps,-not more. + +4818. Were you asked to go to the shop and sign it?-Yes. + +4819. Were any others asked to sign it?-I believe there were. + +4820. Was it the factor who asked you to sign it?-Yes. Gilbert +Irvine was the factor; he asked me to sign it, and I signed to him. +The paper was there, ready for us to sign. + +4821. Was it read over to you?-Yes. + +4822. What was the substance of it?-The substance of it was just +what I have stated-that if we would fish to Mr. Bruce on these +terms, we could stay on the land; and if not, then we would have to +go. + +4823. Were there many people who signed it at the same time with +you?-No. + +4824. Was there anybody else who signed it at the same time?-I +could not exactly say. I don't think there was anybody in the +house when I signed it, but there were a great many names to it +before I went in. + +4825. Was it signed by landholders only, or by those who had +merely a room?-There were very few at that time who merely +held a room. There are not many yet who do so; but the document +was signed generally by the fishermen who fished there. + +4826. Was the thing you signed an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce +so long as you occupied a room or a house on his ground?-Yes; I +so understood it. + +4827. But if you ceased to occupy that house or room you would +be free?-Yes; and we could go to another place. + +4828. You settle every year in the spring?-Yes. + +4829. Do you generally have a balance in your favour?-Not very +often. I have no land, and therefore I have to rely upon my own +fishing, or what work I can do for him when I am called upon to +work. + +4830. Are you bound to work for Mr. Bruce as well as to fish for +him?-I am not bound to work for him; but if I am in debt to him, +of course he will call me out to work. + +4831. But he will pay you for it?-Yes; but I am not quite satisfied +with that pay. It is only a penny for one hour's work. + +4832. Does that go into your account?-Yes. + +4833. Have you got any pass-book at the shop?-No; I have no +pass-book there. I see the articles which I receive from him +entered into his book, and I told the price of most of the things +when they supplied to me; but the principal thing which I get from +the store is meal, and I never know the price of it until the day +when I come to settle, or until I hear it from any person who has +settled before me for the same year. + +[Page 120] + +4834. Do you know what price you paid for it at last settlement?- +I paid the same price for it as the other witnesses you have +examined-22s. for Scotch oatmeal, and 20s. for barley-meal. + +4835. Do you think you could have got your meal cheaper than +that elsewhere?-Yes, I am under that impression. + +4836. Have you asked the price of it elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Hay's +factor at Dunrossness had meal which was cheaper at that time., + +4837. That was in the spring of last year?-Yes. + +4838. How much cheaper was it?-I cannot remember exactly; but +if I had had money, I could have purchased it cheaper at many +places besides that. + +4839. Did you not get advances of money in the course of the year +from Mr. Bruce?-Yes. + +4840. Could you not have got as much as you asked?-I did not +want to ask more than I thought I could stand to. I did not want to +get far in debt to him. + +4841. Did you get a balance at last settlement paid to you in +money?-Yes; if I had a balance at the end of the year, it was paid +to me in money. + +4842. But did you get a balance last year?-I was about clear then. + +4843. You were not much more than clear?-No. + +4844. Do you remember how much you got at that time?-I asked +for £1 of advance from him at the settlement, and he gave it to me. + +4845. Do you mean £1 more than the balance due to you?-Yes. + +4846. Were you in debt at the previous settlement in 1870?-Yes. + +4847. Were you also in debt in 1869?-Yes. + +4848. Was the balance also on the wrong side for you in 1868?-I +don't think it. + +4849. Do you think you had something to get in 1868?-If I +remember right I had. + +4850. Do you remember how you stood in 1867?-I think that I +was clear. + +4851. But you had not much to get?-No. + +4852. You are a married man and have a family?-Yes. + +4853. Is there anything you wish to add to what you have heard the +previous witnesses say?-Nothing further than just that I am not +satisfied with my wages. + +4854. Have you not something to say yourself in fixing your +charges?-No. + +4855. How is that? You need not work unless you know what +wages you are to get beforehand?-No; but there is no general +work there to work at. Mr. Bruce is the only man who has work to +do and when a man is in necessity he must work. + +4856. Can you not get land of your own?-No; I am not able to +hold any land, because my family are sickly, and are not able to +work upon it. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS MAINLAND, examined. + +4857. You are a fisherman at Northtown of Exnaboe, on the land +of Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am. + +4858. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?- +Yes. + +4859. Has it generally been a correct description of your way of +dealing with the shop at Sumburgh, and with Mr. Bruce for your +fish?-So far as regards the store, I have never been obliged to +take anything from it. I always went and bought my goods for +ready money from any place where I could get them cheapest. + +4860. Why was that?-Because as a general rule, I heard the +people complaining that they were obliged to take their goods +from the store, and that they were dearer there than they could be +got elsewhere. + +4861. Had you any difficulty in getting the balance due to you at +the settlement at the end of the year in cash?-No. + +4862. You always got money?-Yes. + +4863. Was money also advanced to you in the course of the year +before settlement, if you wanted it?-Yes, if I asked for it. + +4864. What amount might you get advanced before settlement?- +If I had asked it, I would have got perhaps £10 or £20. Of course I +had a little money in Mr. Bruce's hands, so that I was not requiring +to draw any money from him that was not due to me. + +4865. Is there anything you wish to add to the evidence which has +been given already?-There is one thing I should like to say with +regard to the present law on the subject of leases. Mr. Bruce has +the power of turning out men who have made a great many +improvements on his estate, and perhaps, they may be turned out +without receiving any compensation whatever. I am one of those +who have done it great deal for it. I have expended upwards of +£100 worth of labour and material on his ground. + +4866. Before laying out that expense could you not have made an +arrangement with the landlord that he should repay you for it if +you were turned off?-So far as I am aware, he has never been +prepared to give any rules or regulations to that effect. + +4867. Has he not offered you a lease?-He has offered us a lease; +but I don't think there is any party in Shetland who would accept +of it. + +4868. Have you ever applied for a different lease?-I have never +applied for a lease at all. There was no use doing so, so far as +I knew. But I think that when a party lays out money in +improvements on master's estate he ought to be paid for it. + +4869. But a man who lays out money upon another man's, land +knows quite well before he begins that he will not be paid for it, +and he takes the risk of the landlord being kind enough and able to +repay him part of these expenses. It may very well be that the +landlord is a poor enough man as well as the tenant, and that he +cannot afford to put improvements upon his land; and yet the +tenant goes and spends a lot of money on it, expecting the landlord +to repay him for improvements which the landlord himself would +not have made, if he had had the land in his own hands?-That +may be quite true; but so far as I have understood, Mr. Bruce has +always taken a great interest in having improvements made upon +his land. + +4870. That, however, is hardly a question into which I can enter +here unless you think it has some bearing upon the system of +payments at the shop, or the system of payments for the fish?-It +has no bearing upon these questions at all, so far as I am aware, +except perhaps in this way, that for four months in the winter +season the fishermen are lying at home to a great extent, idle. The +fishing commences about 1st May, and it finishes in the end of +August. Then they have to gather in their summer crops; and +during the winter season, and the early part of the spring, they have +very little to do; while a person of an active turn of mind does not +like to remain idle for such a length of time. They want to be +doing something, and they will engage to any one who has work to +give them. + +4871. Have you anything more to say about that?-I have nothing +more to say except this, that when person is a tenant at will, and +liable to be removed after having made improvements on the +estate of any proprietor, he ought to receive compensation for +these improvements. + +4872. Would it be possible for fishermen in Shetland to carry on +the business of fishermen alone without being tenants?-Not so +far as my judgment goes. + +4873. Why?-Because the small earnings from the fishing could +not support him, neither could the land itself support him in the +way it is laid down present. + +4874. And I suppose, if the holdings of land were larger, a man +would have no time to attend to the fishing?-No, he would not. +If the holdings were larger, of course the men would have to +occupy the whole of their time with the ground. + +4875. Don't you think that, with an improved system of +agriculture, you would find enough occupation on [Page 121] +holdings of the present size for the whole year?-Not in my +opinion; they are too small for that. + +4876. Not even by following out the rules and regulations which +Mr. Bruce has offered you?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ADAM LESLIE, jun., examined. + +4877. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness?-I am. + +4878. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?- +Yes. + +4879. Does it fairly describe the system under which you hold your +land and fish for Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and the way in which +you deal at his shop?-Yes, I think it does. + +4880. Is there any addition you wish to make to the evidence +which has been given, or any correction upon it?-No. + +4881. Have you a pass-book at the shop?-No. + +4882. Do you deal at the shop at Grutness for the goods you want +for your family?-In part I do. + +4883. Do you find that, at the end of the year, you have generally a +balance in your favour, or is it against you?-I cannot say that it is +much against me. + +4884. Do you get payment of that balance in money?-Yes. + +4885. Do you also get advances in money, in the course of the year +before settlement, if you want them?-Yes; whenever I ask for +them. Our place is far away from the bank, and sometimes Mr. +Bruce may have run out of money by so many people having gone +and asked it from him; but if I go to him and ask him for money, +and he does not have it, he tells me when to come back and get it. + +4886. In that case, when you get the money, do you spend it +generally at Mr. Bruce's shop, or do you go and deal at some other +store with it?-I generally go to some other store. + +4887. Do you find that you get your goods cheaper at another store +than at his?-I am under that impression, but I never compared his +goods with those of other merchants. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON, examined + +4888. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, Dunrossness, and a tenant +on Mr Bruce's land?-I am. + +4889. You have been there for thirteen years?-Yes. + +4890. Do you remember a time when the fishermen got their +freedom there?-That was before I came to the place. + +4891. Were they understood formerly to be bound?-Yes, in old +times they were bound; but, just about time when I came there, old +Mr. Bruce gave them their liberty, and they were all free. + +4892. Was there an understanding previously, that they were +bound to fish only to him, or to his tacksmen?-Yes: but, two or +three years before I came they got their liberty. + +4893. Was there any payment made for that?-Each landholder +had to pay 15s. a year for his freedom. + +4894. Was that just an addition to their rent?-Yes. + +4895. The rents were raised, and the fishermen had liberty to do as +they liked about their fish?-Yes. + +4896. From whom did you learn that?-It was given out by Mr. +Bruce, and by all the tenants. + +4897. But you said you were not there at the time?-I was not. + +4898. Then you learned that when you came from common +report?-Yes, just from common report. + +4899. Was your father a landholder there?-No. I removed from +Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground to that place. + +4900. Have you held your ground at the same rent for the thirteen +years you have been there?-No. The rent has been raised a good +deal since I came, in addition to the 15s. + +4901. During all your time have you been free to deliver your fish +to any person you chose?-I was free to do so until twelve years +back, when I became bound to deliver my fish to Mr. John Bruce. + +4902. That was by the letter which has been spoken of already?- +Yes. + +4903. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, and the +other men who have been examined?-Yes. + +4904. Was it generally correct as to the way in which you deal +about your fish?-So far as I could judge, I have not heard a wrong +statement made to-day; and there has been nothing left for me to +add to it. + +4905. You agree with them that you can get money when you ask +for it?-Yes. + +4906. Is the bulk of the price of your fish paid to you in money or +in goods?-I take goods according as I require them. I have meal +and other things; and whatever is over, after paying my account at +the shop and my rent, is cheerfully paid to me, the same as I would +pay it to my son. There is not a freer man at paying money to his +tenants than Mr. Bruce is. I have been £6 in debt, and asked him +for advances, and he has given them to me. + +4907. Was that after settlement?-Yes. + +4908. And, of course, that was given to you on the understanding +that you were to be fishing for him next year?-Yes; I was fishing +for him by sea, and working for him by land. + +4909. If you had not been fishing for him, would you have got an +advance of that sort?-But I was fishing for him, so that I cannot +tell that. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES FLAWES, examined. + +4910. You are a fisherman, and tenant under Mr. Grierson at +Rennesta, near Quendale?-I am. + +4911. Are you under any obligation to deliver your fish to Mr +Grierson?-Yes. + +4912. Is he a fish-merchant and fish-curer?-He is a +fish-merchant, and he has men under him for curing his fish. + +4913. Is your obligation a written one, or is it part of a verbal lease +of your land?-When young Mr. Grierson got the fishing, he read +out a statement to his tenantry at large, in the schoolroom at +Quendale. + +4914. How long ago was that?-Twelve years ago. That statement +which he read gave the tenantry to understand that he was to +become their fish-merchant, or the man they were to deliver their +fish to; and that they were all bound to give him every tail of their +fish from end to end of the season, as long as they held their land +under him. If they did not do that, they knew the consequences: +they would be turned out. + +4915. Was that all stated to you in the schoolroom on that +occasion?-Yes; it was all read off by Mr. Grierson himself. + +4916. Were you present?-Yes. + +4917. Did he state that you would be paid for your fish according +to the current price at the time of settlement?-Yes; that was +stated also at that time. + +4918. Was it stated how that current price was to be +ascertained?-It was to be the currency of the country, particularly +the prices paid by three or four merchants who dealt in the same +kind of fish that he received from his tenants. + +4919. Did Mr. Grierson name the four merchants whose prices +were to rule?-The four merchants who generally agree together +are Mr. John Robertson, [Page 122] Messrs. Hay, Mr. Bruce of +Sumburgh, and Mr. Grierson. + +4920. How do you know that these merchants agree together as to +the prices?-Because the tenants of the whole of them generally +get the same price for their fish. + +4921. Do not all the tenants in Shetland generally get the same +price for their fish each season?-No; there is a difference. + +4922. Do you know that the tenants of these four parties always +get one price?-Yes; generally it is the same price that is given to +them all. + +4923. Do you know that the tenants on other estates get a different +price?-Yes, I know that. + +4924. Can you mention any case in which that has happened?- +Yes. There are a few merchants in Sandwick parish who get fish +from a few boats there-James Smith, James Mouat, and Thomas +Tulloch-and they always give a little higher. + +4925. Do these merchants keep shops as well?-Yes, they have +shops too. + +4926. Do the men who fish for them deal at their shops?-I +understand they do. + +4927. Can you tell me how much Tulloch and Smith have paid for +their fish?-In some years they give 6d. per cwt. more than Mr. +Grierson and the other merchants I have mentioned, and for some +kinds of fish 9d. more. + +4928. What price did you receive for your fish at last +settlement?-Last year, I think, we got 7s. for ling, or 7s. 3d., +I could not exactly say which; 5s. 6d. for cod, and 3s. 6d. for +saith. + +4929. Do you know how much the fishermen got from Tulloch and +Smith?-I could not exactly say, but they got a little more. + +4930. You knew that at the time?-Yes, I knew it at the time from +the fishermen who were giving their fish to them. + +4931. Do you know how much more they got?-I think it was 9d. +more on some fish, and 6d. more on others. It might be a little +more; but, I think, I am safe to say that. + +4932. Do you know anything about the prices of goods at the +stores of Tulloch and Smith?-No. I never bought anything from +them. + +4933. Young Mr. Grierson, whom you mentioned as having taken +the fishing in 1861, is now the proprietor of the estate?-Yes. + +4934. Does the obligation which was then imposed upon you +extend to the sons of his tenants, as well as to the tenants +themselves?-It extends to all. + +4935. Do you know of any case in which any man upon the land +has delivered his fish to another fishcurer than Mr. Grierson, and +has been challenged or turned out for that?-I know one. + +4936. Who was that?-Thomas Johnston, Garth, Quendale, son of +John Johnston. He was out of a chance of fishing for Mr. Grierson +at his station, but he got a chance to fish for Messrs. Hay, and +because he went and fished for them, he could not come back to +his father's house, but had to remain all winter and vore (<i.e.> +spring) with the man he fished for. Then he came back next spring +and fished for Mr. Grierson again. + +4937. Who prevented him from coming back to his father's house, +if he had chosen to do so?-He was told by Mr. Grierson, that if he +went and fished for another person, he would have to stop away, +and that if he came back, it would be his father's warning. + +4938. How long ago was that?-I don't recollect exactly; perhaps +two or three years ago. + +4939. How do you know that that warning would have been given +to John Johnston?-Because it was part of the arrangement with +Mr. Grierson from the very outset. + +4940. But how do you know that Thomas Johnston was told he +must leave the land and that his father would be turned out if he +came back?-Because he told me so himself, and he evidenced it +by staying away. + +4941. Was it not more convenient for him to live near the station +where he was fishing for Hay & Co., than to remain in his father's +house?-He had to leave his own house and go away down to the +west voe to fish. + +4942. But was it not more convenient for himself to go there?- +Yes, it was handier for him to live near the place where he was +fishing. + +4943. Are you sure that was not the reason why he left his father's +house?-But the man he fished for did not live at that station: his +house was away upon the west side. + +4944. Was he not upon Mr. Grierson's land?-No, not that man. + +4945. Do you know the case of any other man being challenged or +threatened because he sold his fish to another fish merchant than +Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I know of another case-James Shewan on +the ground of Brough, belonging to Mr. Grierson's estate. + +4946. How long is it since that case happened?-It was last year. + +4947. What do you know about it?-Shewan did not have a +chance of fishing at home for Mr. Grierson, and he also took a +chance at the ness with Messrs. Hay & Co. They fished from the +west voe then. + +4948. What was the consequence?-The consequence was that +Shewan had to pay £1 of liberty money. + +4949. When was that?-This year. + +4950. Was it before last settlement?-No; it was at this settlement. + +4951. Is the settlement over at Quendale for last season?-Almost. +There were a few boats not settled with when we came up. + +4952. How do you know that Shewan had to pay liberty money this +year? Did he tell you that he had had to pay it?-Yes. + +4953. Did you see him pay it?-I did not. + +4954. Was it added to his account when settling?-I cannot tell +you whether it was included in the settlement, or whether he had +paid it some months before. + +4955. When did he tell you about it?-He told me when he had +settled. + +4956. How long ago is that?-It is not very long; perhaps it week +or two since. + +4957. Is James Shewan a tenant of Mr. Grierson's?-Yes. + +4958. Was it not it part of his bargain, on taking his land, that he +should deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes. + +4959. And was not that £1 which he paid just a penalty for breach +of contract?-Yes; but then he did not have a chance of fishing for +Mr. Grierson. There were no men on Mr. Grierson's estate who +could fill up a boat with him, the men that he had previously been +going with having joined another crew; and therefore he had to go +to some other place where he could earn something. + +4960. Were Mr. Grierson's crews all filled up at that time?-Yes. + +4961. Could Shewan not have brought his share of his boat's fish +to Mr. Grierson and delivered them to him, although the rest of the +men were fishing for Hay and Co.?-He might have done that; but +I don't know very well about it. + +4962. That would have been very inconvenient I suppose?-Yes, +very. + +4963. Do you know of any other case of the same kind?- No. + +4964. Or of any case of a person being told that he must fish +entirely to Mr. Grierson without being threatened?-We knew +quite well from the statement which was made to us before, that if +any one transgressed the rule, the penalty would just be our forty +days warning. + +4965. Do you deal at the Quendale store?-Yes. + +4966. Who is the storekeeper there?-Ogilvy Jamieson. + +4967. Is the shop at a convenient place for your people and for +most of the fishermen round about?-Yes, it is very convenient. + +4968. Does Jamieson receive your fish as well as attend to the +shop?-Yes. There is a factor under [Page 123] him who receives +the fish, but Jamieson is over all, both over the shop and the fish. + +4969. What is the name of the factor who receives the fish?-It is +sometimes one man and sometimes another. + +4970. Do you run an account at the shop?-Yes. + +4971. Are you expected to deal there, or have you freedom to deal +where you like for what you want for your families?-We are +quite at liberty to deal anywhere we choose, if we had only the +means in our possession to do it. + +4972. How is that you have not the means?-Because we have not +got the money. + +4973. Does Mr. Grierson advance you money in the course of the +year before settlement when you ask for it?-He does. + +4974. Can you not take that money and deal with it at any other +store that suits you better than Mr. Grierson's?-We do that very +often. + +4975. Then, how is it that you say you have not the means of +dealing where you choose?-What I mean by that is, that we don't +have the chance to do it so often as we would like to do it; and we +don't like to be always running to him for money for the small +things we require. It is only in particular cases when we require a +pound or so to help us that we ask it from him. + +4976. What other shops are there convenient for you?-The only +shop that I can make better out of than Mr. Grierson's in our +district is Mr. Gavin Henderson's at Scousborough. + +4977. Is that near Dunrossness kirk?-It is to the north and west of +it. + +4978. Do you prefer to go to Henderson's store because the goods +are cheaper and better there?-Yes. + +4979. Are they both cheaper and better?-We generally think so. + +4980. Can you give me any particular case in which you have +found them to be so?-I have never made an exact comparison of +the things to find out the precise difference; but when we are to +buy a suit of clothes for instance, we think we can make as good +bargain at Henderson's shop as we can do at any shop in Shetland. + +4981. Have you bought a suit of clothes both at that shop and at +Mr. Grierson's?-I have never bought a full suit of clothes at Mr. +Grierson's, but I have done so at Gavin Henderson's. + +4982. What is the price of meal at Quendale store?-I could not +tell exactly, because I have not had any there during the last two +years, my little farm having supplied me with all I wanted. + +4983. What is the price of tea at the two stores?-The prices of tea +at both these stores are much the same. There are three different +prices of tea at the two stores, but we rather think that Henderson's +tea is generally better for the prices charged than Mr. Grierson's is. + +4984. Have you tried the moleskins also?-Yes; and if I were +buying with ready money out of Grierson's shop, I don't think the +difference between them would be worth mentioning. + +4985. But is there a difference according as you buy with ready +money or pay at the settlement?-Yes. If I buy a pair of trousers +for ready money, I get them down 1d. per yard. The cloth is +marked 3s. per yard, and I get 1d. off the yard. Then if I buy a +shirt of 3 yards, and if I pay ready money for it, I get reduction of +1d. per yard on 9d. or 10d. + +4986. Do you get your goods cheaper at Henderson's shop even +with that discount?-Yes. If I go to Henderson's shop without the +money, he will not take any more for the goods than he would do +even if I had the money with me. + +4987. Will he give you the goods as cheap as at Grierson's?-Yes; +as cheap as if I had bought them at Grierson's with ready money. + +4988. Is there any other reason why you would prefer not to deal at +Mr. Grierson's shop for your goods?-We would have no great +objection to deal at his shop if we were paid a little better for our +fish. It is our opinion that we are not paid for our fish altogether +as we might be. + +4989. But you get the currency of the country?-Yes; and we sign +for that. + +4990. Do you think you should get more than the currency of the +country?-We cannot exactly judge of the state of the market, but +from what we hear and from what we see in the papers, we think +the merchants take rather too much profit, and that we would be a +little better if we received the money for the sale of our fish +ourselves. + +4991. Do you think you would be better off if you had a price +fixed for your fish at so much per cwt. at the beginning of the +season?-That would depend upon circumstances. + +4992. Taking a number of years together, do you think you could +make a better bargain for yourselves in that way?-I think so. The +three men I mentioned in Sandwick parish generally give an +agreement to state something like what they will give, and they +seem to stand by it pretty well whatever the price may be. + +4993. Would the fishermen not object to that sort of +arrangement?-I don't know. I don't think the fishermen in +general would object to any agreement by which they might know +what they were working for during the season, although I really +cannot say that they could make any more decided efforts for +catching fish than they do under present circumstances. + +4994. But even although the price were fixed at the beginning of +the season, the fishermen would still have an inducement to exert +themselves as much as possible in order that they might have a +large catch?-They would; but I say that I don't know how they +could exert themselves to do more than they do already. + +4995. Still, they would have exactly the same reason for +exertion?-Yes. + +4996. Do you think if the price were fixed at the beginning of the +season, and it turned out that the current price of fish was much +higher than that fixed with the men at the commencement, they +would try to get out of their bargain, and demand the higher price +that was current?-There comes the difficulty. We who catch the +fish would always like to get as high a price for them as we can; +but if we make an agreement, we must stand by it. However, if the +merchants could afford to give 6d. or 1s. more according to the +state of the markets, and did not give it, we would rather look +down upon them for taking such a large price, and not giving us +part of the advantage of it. + +4997. But you ought to recollect that in another year you might +have made a bargain for the same price, and the price received by +the fish-curers might be less, so that there would be a loss to +them?-Yes; but, I think the men in general would be prepared to +run the risk of the rise and fall in the markets in that way, or, if +they made a bargain, they would stick to it. + +4998. Have you known any case in which men engaged to fish on +such terms, and finding the price higher than that which they had +bargained for, asked that higher price from the fish-curer?-I +cannot say that I have known any case. + +4999. You don't know whether that has ever occurred in +Shetland?-No, I don't know anything about that. + +5000. Do you know anything about the employment of beach +boys?-A little. I had a boy employed this year at the beach. + +5001. Is there considered to be an obligation upon the Quendale +tenants to allow their sons to be employed as beach boys?-Yes, +whenever called for. + +5002. Is that obligation enforced?-Yes, it is just the same as with +all the rest. The landlord says, 'If I call for your son to cure fish +for me, and you object to it, then I can lay whatever penalty I +choose upon you, and either remove you or impose a fine.' + +5003. Do you know of any case where that has occurred?-No; +because the tenants know exactly what the consequences would +be, and they are frightened to do anything in opposition to their +landlord's wishes. We are all poor people together, and not very +well able to bear fines or removals. + +[Page 124] + +5004. What are the wages for a beach boy?-An active beach boy +for his first year at Quendale will get 30s. for about five months in +the year. That is his whole wage. + +5005. Could he get more in any other employment in Shetland?- +In some cases Messrs. Hay's factor would give more for beach +boys than they would get beside us. + +5006. What is the age of a boy who would get that wage?-From +twelve to fourteen or sixteen years; and if a boy goes two or three +years to the beach, his wages are raised every year. + +5007. How are their wages paid?-If they take goods from the +shop, these are marked down against them. + +5008. Are they marked down in the father's account, or in a +separate account in the boy's own name?-In a separate account +in the boy's own name. + +5009. Has your son been long in that employment?-I have only +had one of my sons at it for one year. + +5010. Is he to be employed this year again in the same way?-Yes. + +5011. Had he a balance in his favour when he was settled with?- +He has not been settled with yet. He was employed for the year +which has just come to an end; but I don't think he will have very +much to get, as he had no clothes to speak of when he began, and +he was very glad of the chance of winning a little, so that he might +get a suit of clothes. + +5012. Has it been a common case within the last two or three years +for the fishermen who are employed in the way you have described +to have a balance in their favour at settlement, or have they usually +had balance against them?-During the last two or three years a +good many of Mr. Grierson's fishermen have had a very good +balance to come to them to account, but I and some others have +been behind and could not get clear. + +5013. Are there many of that sort?-There are few. + +5014. Is it worse for a man of that kind to leave and get free of his +obligation to fish than for a man that has cash to receive to do +so?-Under Mr. Grierson's arrangement there is no difference +between the two kinds of men as regards getting their liberty to +fish to any other man, because none of them have any such liberty. + +5015. The obligation to fish depends on the holding of land; it +does not depend on the amount of debt due to Mr. Grierson?-No, +it does not depend upon that. + +5016. Are there many men there who fish for Mr. Grierson and +who do not hold land?-Yes, there are a good few. + +5017. Are they under any obligation to fish for him?-They are all +under one obligation from head to foot. + +5018. How does that happen in the case of men who do not hold +land?-Because they are all on Mr. Grierson's ground. + +5019. Would the party they live with be warned if they were not to +fish for him?-That was in his first arrangement. + +5020. Is that arrangement still in force?-I never knew of any +alteration being made upon it. + +5021. Have you been told anything about that obligation since it +was read over to you in 1861?-No; there have been no cases in +which it has been broken except the two I have mentioned, and we +saw what happened. + +5022. But you have not been spoken to about it at all?-No. + +5023. Or reminded about it?-No, we have never been reminded +about it; but we signed then to fish for Mr. Grierson, and we have +heard of no other arrangement. + +5024. How do you supply yourselves with fishing materials?-We +generally take them from Mr. Grierson's shop. + +5025. Are you under any sort of obligation to take them from +there?-We are just under the same sort of obligation to take them +from his shop as we are to take anything, because we generally +cannot get them anywhere else. We never ask money to go and get +them anywhere else, although it is our opinion that if we could go +elsewhere, we would get them a little cheaper-that is, our fishing +lines. + +5026. Where would you go for them?-We could buy them in +some shops in Lerwick a little cheaper. + +5027. But you would have a long way to carry them if you were to +buy them here?-Yes; but we don't think much of our travel +sometimes when we can make good bargain. + +5028. Have you anything more to say about the state of matters in +your neighbourhood?-I have nothing more to say at present; only, +if I am at liberty to do so, I should like to say on Mr. Grierson's +behalf that, as a landlord, he has been very favourable to me and to +many of the tenants. He has supplied us with goods and helped us, +when we were not very well able to help ourselves; and he has +continued to do that in my case to the present time. If I am in debt +to him, he never charges me for that debt; but I am at liberty to sell +any animal off my farm if I choose, without him asking anything +about it. + +5029. Are you a little behind just now?-I am a good bit behind +just now. + +5030. But you could still get an advance of money if you needed +it?-Yes. The shopkeeper told me when I was settling, that if I +wanted from 1s. to £1, I could get it from him any time I asked for +it. + +5031. Do you get all your things at his shop?-Not altogether. +When I have a little money beside me, I can get them from any +quarter. The fact is that I sometimes go there with money, and get +the things cheaper than if I were getting them on credit. For +instance, if I ask for a quarter pound of stick tobacco, I will get it +for 1s. if I pay for it with money; while if it is marked down to me, +it will be 1s. 1d. Now, we do think that is very unreasonable, as +they have a profit both on our fish and on our goods, and we are +very much dissatisfied about it. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE GOUDIE, examined. + +5032. You are a fisherman and tenant on the estate of Mr. Grierson +of Quendale?-Yes; at Garth. + +5033. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes?-Yes. + +5034. Is it generally a correct statement of the obligation you are +under to fish to Mr. Grierson, and of the way in which you settle +for your fish?-So far as I know, it is. + +5035. Do you get money paid to you when you want it in the +course of the season?-Yes. + +5036. But is the greater part of the price of your fish got out in +goods from Mr. Grierson's shop?-Yes, the greater part. + +5037. What balance did you receive at last settlement?-I had no +balance to receive. It was against me. + +5038. Had most of the men a balance against them at last +settlement?-I suppose the greater part of them had. + +5039. Have you got a note of your settlement?-No. + +5040. Did you get any receipt or pass-book or account?-No. + +5041. Is your account read over to you at the settlement?-Yes, if +we want to have it read. The shop account, if we want it, will be +read over to us. + +5042. If it is not read over, how do you know whether it is +correctly charged or not?-The men who do not keep a note of +their accounts for themselves cannot know whether they are +correct or not even by hearing them read over. + +5043. Are you generally content to trust to the shopkeeper for the +accuracy of your account?-Yes. + +5044. Do you know anything about the quality of the meal that is +sold there, and the price of it?-Yes. + +5045. Have you been getting meal from the shop [Page 125] +during the last year or two?-Yes. Mr. Grierson's meal last year +was from 2s. to 3s. per boll above what Mr. Gavin Henderson +charged for his. + +5046. Was the quality of Henderson's meal as good?-Yes; quite +as good. + +5047. Have you tried them both in your own house?-Yes. + +5048. What was the price of the one and of the other?-Mr. +Grierson's bear-meal was 14s. per boll-that is Shetland grain; +and Gavin Henderson charged 12. for Shetland meal also. + +5049. Does Mr Grierson's shopkeeper charge the same price for +meal all through the year?-Yes; for the same kind of meal. + +5050. All the meal of the same kind in your account is charged at +the same rate throughout the year?-Yes. + +5051. But at Gavin Henderson's, it is charged to you according to +the price at the time you buy it: the price varying at different +periods of the same year?-Yes, it varies a little; but Mr. +Grierson's meal also varies when the price elsewhere varies. + +5052. Then you may have meal charged at different rates in the +same account?-Yes. + +5053. Is there any other article, the price of which you have +compared with what you could get it for elsewhere?-Yes, there is +tobacco. If we buy a single ounce we pay 31/2d., and 2 oz. 6d., at +Quendale store. In Gavin Henderson's we can get a single ounce +for 3d., and 2 oz. are charged 6d. also. + +5054. Is there anything else you can speak to?-No, I don't think +there is anything else. + +5055. Is there anything else you wish to say in addition to what +James Flawes has said?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, CHARLES EUNSON, examined. + +5056. You are a fisherman, and a tenant of Mr. Grierson's at +Waterbru?-I am. + +5057. Is that near Quendale?-It is about a mile and a half away. + +5058. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes and George +Goudie?-Yes. + +5059. Is it generally correct with regard to the system of dealing at +the shop and for your fish?-I think so. + +5060. Is there anything you wish to add to it?-Nothing with +respect to that; but I had a little experience once with regard to +liberty money. Before the time when Mr. Grierson and Mr. Bruce +took the fishings into their own hands-for they were both in +company when they started with that-we had enjoyed our liberty +all along, and had never been obliged to fish for our proprietors; +but at that time we were taken in hand along with the rest of Mr. +Grierson's tenants, and we had to fish for them. That lasted only +for three years, and then the contract was broken, and each started +on his own account. + +5061. Was that before or after the statement which was made by +Mr. Grierson at Quendale?-It was three years after it. When the +contract was broken, Mr. Grierson had no place handy for us to +land our fish at and deliver them to him, as we lived farther from +Quendale than the rest of his tenants; and therefore at that time +again we got our liberty and fished for whom we chose. He +exacted nothing for that, and things went on in that way, I think, +for three years; but at the end of that time Mr. Grierson took a +station at Voe, on the east side of the parish, where he had had no +place previously, and he told us that we would be obliged to +deliver our fish to him, like the rest of his tenants. During the +three years before we were put under that obligation, we had been +fishing at the Ness, and had been at considerable trouble and +expense in forcing a beach, and making other things right for +curing our own fish. We were unwilling to lose the whole of that, +and we applied to Mr. Grierson to allow us to continue to fish at +the Ness; and he told us that if we paid three guineas of liberty +money, he would allow us to fish there. We offered to pay that +liberty money for one season, but it was a bad season; there were +not many fish, and the price was low; and we went to Mr Grierson +and asked him if he would take our fish. He consented to take +them in a dry state; and he deducted 6d. per cwt. for the three +guineas for every cwt. we delivered to him; so the result was that +we had to pay him about £1 and upwards. + +5062. In what year was that?-It is four years ago; it must have +been in 1867. + +5063. Then these fish would be settled for at the annual +settlement?-Yes. + +5064. Did you get any account of that year's settlement?-No; I +would have got it if I had asked for it, but I never asked it. + +5065. Who did you settle with that year?-With Mr. Grierson +himself. + +5066. You did not settle with Mr. Jamieson?-No; he had not +come to the place at that time. There was another man there in the +place which Mr. Jamieson now has, but we did not settle with him. + +5067. Do you know anything about the price or quality of the meal +at Quendale store as compared with other places?-It is a great +deal better now than it used to be eleven or twelve years ago; it +was not very satisfactory then, but it is not so bad now. The +difference between the meal there and at other places is still +something, but not so much so as it was. + +5068. Do you get meal there?-Yes, frequently; and frequently at +other places. + +5069. I suppose you get it there, or at other places, according to the +state of your account at the time?-Yes; or rather according to my +interest. Mr. Grierson has never refused to give me anything +reasonable that I asked him. He has been very generous in that +way all along. + +5070. Have you any boys on the beach?-I have one boy who has +been engaged this year for the first time for Mr. Grierson. + +5071. Had you any desire to have him engaged elsewhere?-I +would not have minded much if he had never gone to the beach at +all; it is not a very good berth for a boy. In the previous year they +asked me if I would allow him to go to the beach, and I said I +would rather not, as I required his services myself; but this season +they asked me for him again. Perhaps they would not have taken +him against my will, but Mr Grierson might have thought I was +rather obstinate if I refused again, and so I let him go. I did not +like to refuse when Mr. Grierson asked me. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE LESLIE, examined. + +5072. You are a fisherman, and a tenant on Mr. Grierson's land at +Hillwill?-I am only a fisherman, but I pay a little rent along with +my father. + +5073. Are you any relation of the witness Laurence Leslie who was +previously examined?-No. + +5074. You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses from +Quendale?-Yes. + +5075. Is it generally correct?-I think it is. + +5076. Is there anything you could add to it?-I don't think so. + +5077. Although you are not a tenant, do you consider yourself +bound to fish to Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I am bound to do so. + +5078. You could be free from that obligation, however, by leaving +the ground?-Yes. + +5079. Do you run an account in your own name at Mr. Grierson's +shop?-No. I get a little from the shop sometimes, but I buy what +I want where I think most convenient. + +5080. Do you get payment in money from Mr. Grierson?-Yes. + +5081. Can you get all your payment in money from him if you +like?-Yes. + +[Page 126] + +5082. Do you get that money in the course of the year, or at the +end of the season?-Just when we settle once a year. + +5083. You don't get advances in the course of the year?-No; I +don't seek any before the end of the year. + +5084. Then you have always cash in hand?-Yes. + +5085. You are a little ahead of the world?-Yes. + +5086. Have you any beach boys in your family?-No; but I was a +beach boy myself about fifteen years ago. + +5087. That was before there was any obligation on the Quendale +people to fish for their landlord?-Yes. + +5088. At that time how was the arrangement made with beach +boys?-I wrought for five months, and I got 10s. + +5089. Was that paid to you in goods or in money at the +settlement?-I got it in money at the settlement. + +5090. Was that the usual way of settling at that time?-Yes. + +5091. Is it the usual way still that a beach boy gets payment of his +wages in money?-I believe so. + +5092. Does he not run an account at the store?-I don't know +anything about that myself. + +5093. Have you anything to add to what the other men have +said?-My wife sent up a shawl to a sister of mine in Lerwick to +have it sold, and she sold it to Laurenson & Co. I came up to +Lerwick some time afterwards, in the course of the spring, to take +down a boat, and I went to the shop to get payment of the shawl. I +was not requiring cottons or drapery goods, but I was requiring a +pair of trousers; and when I went to the shop, I was shown a piece +of tweed which I fixed upon to take, but the merchant refused to +give me the cloth for the shawl, because it was a money article, +and I had to take soft goods and other things which were of no use +to me. + +5094. Would he not have given you the cloth in exchange for the +shawl at a somewhat higher rate than he would have given it to +you for cash?-He would not give it to me at all, and I had to take +the cottons and stuff that were of very little use to me. + +5095. Did you take these home?-No. + +5096. Have you had any other dealings of that sort?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN BURGESS, examined. + +5097. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Mr. Grierson at +Hillwill?-Yes. + +5098. Have you heard the evidence that has been given by James +Flawes and the other witnesses from Quendale, with regard to Mr. +Grierson's fishing business, and their dealings at his shop?-Yes. +5099. Is that evidence correct, so far as you know?-Yes, + +5100. Have you anything to add to it?-Nothing. + +5101. Do you know anything about the engagement of beach +boys?-Yes. + +5102. Are there some of them in your family?-Yes; I have had a +son employed as a beach boy for two years. His wages for the first +year were 30s., and for the second year, 35s. + +5103. Was that wage fixed at the commencement of the year or at +settlement time?-It was not fixed until settlement. I did not +know what he was working for until then. + +5104. Was he running an account at the time in the shop books?- +A small one. It was very little he was requiring, and he got the +balance in money. + +5105. Was there any obligation on him to go as beach boy to Mr. +Grierson?-Yes. + +5106. Could you not have engaged him anywhere else?-No; I +wanted to keep him at home beside myself, because I was +requiring him, but Mr Jamieson told me he was requiring him at +the beach, and I must just let him go; and therefore I preferred to +put up with a little hardship to myself and my family, and allowed +him to go to the beach. + +5107. When did Mr. Jamieson tell you that?-When he came and +asked me to allow my boy to go. + +5108. Was that before the commencement of the first year which +he served?-Yes. + +5109. Did you make any objection when Mr. Jamieson asked you +for him?-Yes, I objected a little. I said I would be glad to keep +him at home; but Mr. Jamieson said I would better just let him go, +and I did so, without any more hesitation. + +5110. Do you know anything about the difference in the price of +meal at Mr. Grierson's store, and at others?-No; I have had very +little to do with the store. + +5111. Do you not deal there?-I deal for a few small things, but +very little. + +5112. Do you buy most of your provisions and other things from +other stores?-Yes, for the most part. + +5113. Where do you get them?-From Mr. Henderson's. + +5114. Are you quite at liberty to go there for them-Yes. + +5115. Can you get advances of money from Mr. Grierson in the +course of the year for the purpose of buying goods at Henderson's +and other stores?-Yes. If I was asking for advances, I would get +them; but I don't ask for any until settling time, and then I get the +balance, whatever it is, freely. + +5116. Have you an account against you at that time?-Yes. + +5117. Have you any pass-book?-No, I don't keep any pass-book. + +5118. Is your account read over to you at settlement time?-Yes. + +5119. And you see that it is correct?-Yes; so far as my judgment +leads me. + +5120. But you say you don't get many goods at the store: is that +because you can get them cheaper elsewhere?-Perhaps that is +sometimes the reason, and sometimes I don't require the things +which are there. I always take my fishing materials, lines and +hooks, and other things of that kind, from the store. + +5121. Are these things reasonably priced?-We suppose they are +much the same as in other places in the neighbourhood. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY LESLIE, examined. + +5122. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Grierson at +Gord?-I am. + +5123. You have heard the evidence of Flawes and the others?- +Yes. + +5124. Do you agree with it, so far as you know?-Yes. + +5125. You know the facts which have been stated by them to be +true?-Yes. + +5126. Have you been a long time a tenant on that estate?-Yes; for +fifty years at any rate. + +5127. At the commencement of that period, were you free to fish +to any one you liked?-No; there has always been a bond on that +estate to fish to Mr. Grierson, or to any one to whom the fish were +let. That has been the case all my time, and I have been more than +sixty years there. + +5128. Have you fished to anybody else during any part of that +time?-No; it was always to him. There were three years when +Mr. Bruce and Mr Grierson were in company together. + +5129. But before that you were not free?-No; I never knew a time +when we were free all the time I have been there. + +5130. Who did you fish to before that?-To Mr. Grierson and to +his father. I fished to the present Mr. Grierson's grandfather, and I +was at the beach to him. + +5131. Was he a fish-curer and fish-merchant also?-Yes. + +[Page 127] + +5132. Was that property ever set in tack to a +fish-merchant?-Yes; but that was before my day. + +5133. Has the obligation to fish always been a part of the condition +on which you held your land?-Yes. + +5134. Were you present at the time when young Mr. Grierson +intimated to the tenants that he was taking the fishing into his own +hands?-Yes; I and every man and boy on the estate were all +assembled in the same room, and we all heard the same agreement +read + +5135. Was not that the beginning of the present state of things +under which you are now bound to fish?-Yes. + +5136. Then you were free before that?-No, we were not free; but +we wrought upon a different scale. + +5137. Were you bound at that time to fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes. + +5138. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement which the +other men have made about the present state of things?-I have +nothing to add to what the other Quendale men have stated. + +5139. Have you been getting meal from Mr. Grierson's store?- +No; I have got none there for the last two years. I required none +during that time. + +5140. Have you had plenty to supply you from your own +ground?-Yes; or I had bought it at a roup when other people were +going out. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, PETER MOUAT SANDISON, examined. + +5141. You are inspector of poor in the parish of Fetlar and North +Yell?-I am. + +5142. You were formerly engaged in the fish-curing trade?-I was, +for a considerable time. + +5143. Have you heard the evidence of any of the witnesses who +have been examined here to-day?-I have. + +5144. Was the mode of paying for fish, and the way in which the +accounts of the fishermen were settled at the end of the year, much +the same in Yell when you were engaged in the business as you +have heard described?-Yes, the settlement was much the same. + +5145. Was it made about the same season of the year?-It was +generally made about 20th November on towards the end of the +year. + +5146. Does the fisherman who is employed there by a merchant +usually open an account in that merchant's books for provisions +and soft goods and other things which he wants for his family?- +Yes, he does, almost invariably. + +5147. In your experience, is that account pretty nearly even on the +two sides, or is there a balance due on the one side or on the other +at the end of the year?-That, of course, depends a great deal upon +the party who is running the account. There is a difference in men +as well as in merchants and fish-curers. Some have larger families +and require a great deal more supplies than others. Some have +smaller families, and the produce of their own farms can serve +them for a longer period in the year than others. From various +causes the amount of their supplies is very different; but for the +last three years I should say there have been only about 20 to 25 +per cent of them who have not had money to get at settlement. + +5148. It has been said that it is an important thing for the success +of a merchant to get his fishermen into debt to him, so that he may +secure their services for the succeeding year: would you consider +that a safe policy to pursue on the part of a merchant?-I was a +fish-curer and merchant for twelve years myself, and I am always +considered it to be the best policy to have clear men + +5149. Did you find that, as a rule, the best men were clear in your +books?-Decidedly. I never found that debt afforded me any hold +whatever upon a man. + +5150. Then you found the case to be rather the reverse of what I +have stated?-Yes; and the reason why I think it was the reverse +is, that no man was in debt who could help it, and generally a man +who was in debt was found to be an extravagant, careless man, or +there was something wrong with him. Whenever a man got a +certain depth into debt, he did not care how much deeper he went; +and if I refused him further supplies at the shop, then he just went +to another merchant. + +5151. Or he might go south?-Occasionally he did, but not often. +These kind of men don't go south. + +5152. But if he went to another man, you could charge him for +your debt?-Yes; my only recourse was to summon him; but what +was the use of doing that. I would only have lost the expense of +my summons, because he had nothing that I could take from him; +or if he had anything, his landlord generally came in with his right +of hypothec. + +5153. Could you not arrest the proceeds of his fishing in the hands +of the other merchant to whom he had gone?-No; I think that is +not legal. I have tried it, but I could not succeed. A considerable +number of the men who left me one year went to another fishcurer, +who happened to be their own proprietor. He had not been curing +fish previously. I summoned several of them; and with one of +them especially I had a case in court in Lerwick for a considerable +time. It was ultimately decided that the merchant, as proprietor, +should pay the expense to which I had been at; but as to the +account, I did not get one penny of it. I got my expenses and +nothing more. I give it up as hopeless case. + +5154. Had these fishermen been obliged to leave your service and +go to fish for their proprietor?-Yes; at that time they were +obliged to do so. + +5155. He had regarded it as part of the obligation under which they +held their land that they should fish for him?-He had not been +carrying on the fishing previously; and he allowed the men to fish +for me, or, least, for the firm which I was conducting; but when he +took the fishing into his own hands, he required his men to fish for +himself. + +5156. I suppose he agreed to pay the expenses of the case you +mentioned because he felt it was some hardship to you to deprive +you of the services of these men?-It was his lawyer and mine, I +think, who agreed together about the expenses. + +5157. Was the proprietor to whom you refer Mr. Henderson?-No. + +5158. Was it Mr M'Queen?-No. + +5159. Was he a proprietor in Yell?-Yes. + +5160. How many fishermen did you generally employ?-At one +time I employed 90. + +5161. Would the whole of these men have accounts in your shop +books?-Yes. + +5162. Can you give me some idea of what amount of the proceeds +of their fishing would be paid for by their account for goods?- +The lowest amount that I ever had in an account for goods, when I +settled with a man, was 21/2d. for a whole twelvemonth-the man +got the rest in cash; and the highest, if I remember right, was +somewhere about £10. 10s. + +5163. What balance would remain due to that man?-Some years, +of course, he would be in debt; but in other years he would have +something to get. + +5164. Was it a very good year in which the man had taken ten +guineas worth from your shop, or was that about the average +amount of their shop accounts?-I am talking about the average +accounts for the twelve years during which I was carrying on the +business. In the last year when I carried on the business on my +own account, the most money I paid to any man for fish was £22. + +5165. What would be the amount of that man's contra account for +goods?-I think about six guineas. + +5166. Would that be a fair specimen of the accounts?-No; that +was an extra year. There was an extra quantity of fish taken, and +an extra price paid for them; and that man's boat, I think, was the +highest fished boat an the whole station. + +5167. But would that be a fair specimen of the amount of goods +which a man took throughout the season?-No. + +[Page 128] + +5168. Do you think it would be more, or less, an average?-It +would be more than the average. I should say that about £3, 10s. +would be a pretty fair average in our quarter, taking young men, +tenants, and non-tenants all together. + +5169. Is it the practice in the trade in Yell to give the fisherman a +state of his account at the end of the year?-No; it is not the +practice. + +5170. Or a pass-book?-We always wanted them to keep a +pass-book, but they would very seldom do it. They could not be +troubled with it. Sometimes they would take a pass-book and +bring it for a few times, and then, perhaps, they would not bring it +again for month. + +5171. Does that arise from their own carelessness; or is it from a +notion that the shopkeeper cannot be troubled entering the goods +in a book as they are got, because he is too busy to do so?-I never +knew that to be the case; but I have heard many of the men say +they had confidence in their merchant, and that they would not be +bothered to keep a pass-book. + +5172. When that was the case, did you, at the settlement, read +over the accounts to the fishermen item by item?-Yes, in most +cases; but some men won't be at the bother of even hearing their +accounts read over. They just say, 'We know you won't cheat us,' +and they hear the sum-total. + +5173. Then it is their own fault if they do not know what their +account contains?-Of course it is. + +5174. Is it the men who make the settlement with you, or their +wives?-The men, generally. + +5175. Then they don't know what they have got out of the shop, if +it is their wives who have been dealing there?-Probably not; but +there is a whole day given to the settlement with these men, and +they have plenty of time to examine into their accounts if they +think there anything wrong. + +5176. Did you do anything in hosiery?-I did. + +5177. When you bought hosiery goods, did you usually send them +to the south?-Yes. + +5178. Did you send any to merchants in Lerwick?-I generally +sent knitted goods to the south; and the worsted I sent to Lerwick. + +5179. You bought worsted yourself?-Yes; yarn made by the +country people themselves with their own wool. + +5180. What is the usual price for Shetland worsted?-From 2d. to +7d. per cut. + +5181. That comes to how much per pound?-We never take it by +the pound; we always take it by the cut. 7d. a cut would, I +suppose, be about 2s. 6d. per ounce, or 40s. per pound. + +5182. Would not that be very fine?-Yes. + +5183. Would it be the finest Shetland worsted that is made?-I +think it is. I have never bought any finer than that, and I have not +been aware of any being bought finer. + +5184. Then you sold that to merchants in Lerwick at some per +centage of profit to yourself?-Not one cent. I never, in all my +experience, got a cent for worsted beyond what I paid for it, and I +never asked it. + +5185. Do you think the worsted you have mentioned is the finest +and dearest worsted that is sold out of the island to any +merchant?-I do. + +5186. Did you ever know of any worsted being sold out of Yell as +high as 80s. or 90s. per pound?-I may be making a mistake the +weight. I was guessing 4 cuts to the ounce; but perhaps I may be +below the mark. The 7d. worsted I know is very fine; but never +weighed it, and I may be making an unintentional mistake in that +respect. + +5187. The 7d. worsted might be lighter than you suppose, and +therefore a pound of it might be more expensive?-Yes. + +5188. Is it a common thing to have worsted so fine as that?-No; it +is the exception. + +5189. The average will be a good deal lower?-I should think 3d. +would be about the average. + +5190. In dealing with people in Yell, you keep an account with the +fisherman?-Yes. + +5191. Is there any separate account kept for supplies with the wife +and family?-Yes; there are separate accounts kept with them. I +don't suppose there are many families in the north in which each +member, after arriving at a certain age does not keep a separate +account. + +5192. Is that in consequence of their being employed in the fish +trade, or from their having hosiery of their own making to dispose +of?-I don't think it is; but the husband or father is generally at the +fishing, and he supplies the heavy goods that are required for the +family-meal and such like-so far as he is able. Then the wife +has wool, which she either spins into worsted, or perhaps may sell. +She comes to the merchant herself with it and makes her own +bargain. Perhaps she may be due a little when she comes with this +day's supplies for stuff that she has been buying, and anything she +is due may be put to her own account; the next day she may have a +little over, and that is credited to her account. Then the girls, as +soon as they are able to knit, go to the shop on their own account +too with their knitting and with their spinning, and the merchant +upon his responsibility opens an account with them, if he thinks +proper; and they go on with these accounts until perhaps they are +married. + +5193. Then hosiery is generally paid for in Yell with goods?- +There is seldom anything asked for except goods. + +5194. The account for goods is added up on the one side, and the +account for hosiery on the other, and it is squared up now and +then?-The value of the hosiery is generally given in goods at the +time when the hosiery is sold. + +5195. In Yell the hosiery is always sold; it is not made to order?- +No; there is no making to order in Yell. + +5196. Is there a separate book kept for those dealings with the +females from that in which you enter your dealings with the +fishermen?-I think in most cases there is a separate book. At any +rate I kept a separate book, but I cannot speak for others. + +5197. It has been said that that book is called the women's book: is +that so?-That was the name I gave to it. + +5198. But you don't know whether other merchants give it that +name?-No; but I gave it that name because I had no other entries +in it except the accounts had against women. + +5199. I understand it was only the home-fishing that you +engaged?-Yes. + +5200. You had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing?-No. + +5201. Do you think it would be any advantage for the merchants or +for the fishermen if the price to be given for the fish were fixed at +the commencement of the fishing season?-I think that would be +an advantage to the merchants, but not for the fishermen. + +5202. How would the merchants benefit by that?-Because they +would then have no bargain to make with the fishermen. + +5203. They would have to make a bargain at the commencement +of the year?-Yes; but suppose the bargain were to be, that the +fish were to be paid for at 8s. per cwt.; in that case the fishermen +would require to own his own boat and his own lines, and furnish +them himself, and the fish-curer or merchant would have no risk +and no loss, but would just pay exactly for what he got. But in the +case as it at present stands, the merchant has to furnish the boat +and lines, and salt, and everything connected with the fishing, and +he has the chance in North Yell, as is very often the case, of losing +£5 or £10 or £15 worth of lines in one day in the deep water. The +lines are often left there, and the men cannot get them. + +5204. In what why does the merchant furnish the boat to the +men?-He buys the boat, and hires it, as well as the lines, to six +men. + +5205. What is the amount of the hire?-£6 per season for boat and +lines. + +5206. And that sum is deducted from the credit side of the +fisherman's account?-Yes. The six men come forward to me as +a fish-curer, and they wish me to [Page 129] employ them for the +fishing. I do so, and I give them a boat which, if it is a new boat +ready for sea, will cost £20. I also give them new lines, which, +along with the boat, will cost altogether from £35 to £40. They +agree to pay me £6 of hire for that for the time they use it, and to +deliver the fish caught by them with these lines and in that boat +to me. No price is fixed for the fish, but it is the general +understanding that they are to be paid at the highest currency of +the country. Well, they go to the fishing, and perhaps the very first +day, as I have known to be the case, they may have lost £15 worth +of lines; and as soon as they come ashore, they come to me, and I +have to give them other £15 worth. + +5207. Do they not pay for the lines they have lost in that case?- +Not one penny; I take the risk. The sum which I charge covers all +risk, and that is all I get. + +5208. Then the fishermen have not much inducement to be careful +of the lines or of the boat?-Oh yes; because if they lose lines, +they lose fish; and if they lose the boat, they stand a chance of +losing their own lives. I have not been a fisherman myself, but I +should fancy that no fisherman would willingly lose lines if he +could help it. + +5209. Is it not the case that fishermen sometimes buy the boat +from the curer, and pay for it by instalments running over a certain +number of years?-Not in Yell. + +5210. You have had no experience of that system of dealing?-I +cannot say that I have. + +5211. Do you think it is of great importance to a fish-curer here to +have fishermen bound to fish for him? Does it tend greatly to +ensure his success in the fishing trade?-I don't know very well +how to answer that question. I had fishermen bound to me during +the period of my lease-about sixty of them I suppose. + +5212. Was that a lease which you held of an estate in Yell?-Yes; +Major Cameron's. + +5213. Did you lease the whole of Major Cameron's property in +North and Mid Yell?-Yes. + +5214. Were these men all bound to fish for you?-They were +leased over to my brother, and I wrought out the business for him, +but the men were never compelled in any way. About one-third of +them were south-going men, and I should think about one-sixth of +them fished to others. + +5915. You did not enforce the obligation which you understood +them to be under?-No; I never enforced it in any case but one. + +5216. Had you always enough men to man your boats with?-We +had men belonging to other proprietors, and other proprietors had +men belonging to us, and none of us ever enforced that obligation +except in one case, and that was merely in order that we might put +out a boat to sea. There were five men engaged for the boat, and +we could not get another free man, so we had to take one. + +5217. Was that long since?-Yes; it was in 1855. But I know of +men who have been offered this year and last year to get their +money every Saturday night, or every day when they landed fish, +and they would not accept it. These were men who were +thoroughly clear. + +5218. Was it wages they were offered, or a price for the fish they +delivered?-A price for the fish they delivered. Suppose they +delivered 20 cwt. of fish to me, I would pay them for these fish. + +5219. How was the price to be fixed in that case?-It would be +fixed at once. + +5220. Would it be fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes. + +5221. Is it long since you proposed that arrangement to any +man?-It was at the settlement of 1870. + +5222. Did you offer to pay certain men in that way at that time?-I +did not do it, because I was not in the fishing at that time, but I +was present when it was offered. It was the parties for whom I +was curing fish at that time who offered the money. + +5223. Was that Spence & Co.?-Yes. + +5224. The offer was made to men in Yell?-Yes. + +5225. And the men declined that offer?-Yes; they declined taking +it. They said if they had as much money as would carry them +through the year, they would rather not take any more, but that +they could trust to the merchants. + +5226. Was that offer made to many men?-To all their men in +Yell. There were 30 boats, with six men in each boat, and that +offer was made to the whole of them at Cullivoe. The same offer +was repeated this year, and they still would not accept of it. They +accept of not take their cash until the end of the year. + +5227. Was that because they wanted to have something at the end +of the year with which to pay their rent?-I suppose that would be +one of their reasons; but they were afraid that if they got their cash +every Saturday, or every fortnight, or every month, they would +spend it carelessly and thoughtlessly, whereas they did not have +the money, they could not spend it. + +5228. Are there any leases in Yell now?-Scarcely any. + +5229. Have there been leases introduced lately?-No; but there +have been some offered-on Major Cameron's estate, and on Mr. +Irvine's. + +5230. Do these leases contain any conditions as to fishing?-No. + +5231. Were the conditions such as would interfere with fishing, or +do you know anything about that?-Mr. Irvine's leases were not +such as to interfere with the fishing in any way, and I think there +were three persons who accepted them. With regard to the other +leases, I do not say they were such as would interfere with the +fishings. There was a certain amount of work required to be done +on the farms during the year, but I think all that was required could +have been done when there was no fishing being prosecuted. At +that season, what I would call the fishing was not going on. + +5232. But the tenants have not accepted that offer?-There are +two on Major Cameron's property who are under lease, I believe, +or who understand they are under leases. I am not aware if the +lease has ever been signed; I think not. + +5233. The poor-rates in your parish, I understand are not so high +as in some parts of Shetland?-I suppose not. They are 3s. for +1872-1s. 6d. on the proprietor and 1s. 6d. on the tenant. + +5234. Can you say, from your experience as an inspector of poor, +that pauperism is promoted in any degree by the system which +prevails of settling only once a year?-No; I should not say it was +increased in any way by that. + +5235. Does not that system of long settlements induce people to be +a little careless about their money, and improvident?-There are a +certain class who, if they had money, would spend it. That class +are pretty well looked after by the fish-curer; they are only allowed +advances in such small proportions as enable them to get through +the year, and to be as little in arrear as possible at the end. If these +same parties had the money in their hands, I am certain it would +not last them so long as it does in the fish-curer's hands. + +5236. That is to say, he will only allow them a certain amount of +supplies from the shop?-Yes; so much a week or a fortnight. + +5237. Or cash if they want it, but to a limited extent?-Yes; I +should think that cash would be given to a free man. + +5238. But not to a bound fisherman?-Not unless it was for a +necessary purpose-to purchase something, for instance, which +the merchant cannot supply. + +5239. If a man is bound to fish to a proprietor or tacksman in Yell, +is that man bound to deal at the shop of his employer?-By no +means. + +5240. By a free man, do you mean one who is not in debt?-Yes. +I don't mean to say that cash would be absolutely refused even to a +man who was in debt, but it would not be given to him unless it +was for a necessary purpose. + +5241. Can you explain how beach boys are generally employed in +Yell?-Yes, I ought to have a pretty good idea of it. + +[Page 130] + +5242. Is an account opened at the shop at the same time that the +engagement is made in the beach boy's name, from which he can +get supplies if he wishes them?-Yes, sometimes. + +5243. So that when he becomes a beach boy, he is virtually +independent of his father?-Not always. The fish-curer would +prefer not to open an account with him until the end of the season, +because generally, when a beach boy gets an account opened, he +will overrun it if he possibly can. Therefore we prefer not to open +an account with the boys themselves, but to deal with their fathers, +which we very often do. In the case, however, of an orphan boy, +or a boy who has got extravagant or helpless parents, we open an +account with himself. + +5244. Is there any difficulty in procuring the services of beach +boys?-I never knew of any difficulty. I have cured fish since +1859, and I never had power over one, and I never wanted to have +it. + +5245. You had not power over them even where you had the +fishermen bound to you?-No; they have not been bound for the +last seven years while I have been curing. + +5246. Is it seven years since those fishermen on Major Cameron's +estate were bound?-Yes. + +5247. At that time did the obligation apply to their families?-No. + +5248. Then the boys were not obliged to be engaged to you as +beach boys?-No; we took any boy who was most convenient for +ourselves, without taking into consideration whose tenant his +father was. + +5249. It has been said that there is an inclination on the part of the +fish merchant to get the beach boys into his debt, so as to secure +their services in the following year: is there any foundation for that +statement?-I have heard it said, but I never could believe it was +the case. + +5250. Are the boys always quite ready to engage for that work?- +They are always very anxious to engage for it, because always +before they enter on hard labour they are able to take a turn on the +beach, and they get something for that. + +5251. But what they get for it is generally settled for in goods at +the end of the year?-No, not generally. If a boy runs an account +himself, it is settled in goods; but if it is an account with his father, +it is settled in cash. + +5252. May the proportion of the boys who have an account of their +own be about one-half or about one-third of them?-I should say +that for the last three years three-fourths of them have got an +account of their own; but then they were not boys. Although they +get the name of boys, they were old men and women. + +5253. You mean that women are employed in that part of the +work?-Yes. + +5254. What are their wages?-In 1870 the parties under my +control had from £4, 10s. down to 35s. according to age and +ability; and in 1871 the people employed were all boys except one +man: the boys had from 25s. to 35s., and the man had £3. + +5255. Are you still in the fish-curing business?-Yes; I cure their +fish for Spence & Co. + +5256. Have you a shop now?-No. + +5257. Then you simply manage their curing business?-I merely +dry their fish for them. + +5258. And the persons you have spoken of just now are still +employed by you for the purpose of curing?-Yes. + +5259. How are their wages paid?-As I was curing Spence & +Co.'s fish, if they chose to go to Spence Co.'s at Uyea Sound +in Unst, they got supplies there in an account, but only about +one-fourth of them did so. The others got their supplies perhaps +in the neighbouring shops. I cannot say where they got them, +but they got cash from Spence & Co. at settling time. + +5260. Was that cash advanced during the season, or was it all paid +at settlement?-It was all paid settlement. If they asked for an +advance, they would get it, but I was not aware of any being +advanced. + +5261. But such advances as were made by Spence and Co. were +made by taking goods from their shop?-Yes, so far as I know. I +also bought kelp for Spence & Co. + +5262. Is there much done in kelp there?-Yes, good deal. + +5263. What is the nature of that trade? Do you employ a number +of people to gather the sea-weed?-It is women who do that. +They form themselves into companies of two or three or four; +they gather the seaweed and make the kelp, and then bring it to +a merchant to sell. I had a lease of Major Cameron's kelpshores, +but I transferred that lease to Spence & Co, and afterwards I +bought the kelp and delivered it over to them. + +5264. Did the women pay anything to the proprietor for leave to +collect the sea-weed?-No; but I paid 20s. a ton, or rather Spence +& Co. did. + +5265. You paid that money for the exclusive right of purchasing +from these women?-For the exclusive right of manufacturing +kelp., We can employ people to collect it if we choose, but we +think it better just to allow the women to do it themselves, without +being forced in any way; and then we paid them 4s. per cwt. in +cash for it, while we paid 20s. a ton to the proprietor and taxes. + +5266. What taxes are there on the kelp?-Poor-rates, both as +proprietor and tenant. + +5267. Then 4s. per cwt. is the whole payment which these women +receive for gathering the kelp and manufacturing it?-Yes. + +5268. They manufacture it and bring it to you?-Yes. + +5269. Are they paid entirely in cash?-They have been paid +almost entirely in cash this year, but not altogether. + +5270. They have the option of running an account for it at the +shop?-Yes, if they choose to do so; but if they ask cash, they get +it. + +5271. Are you aware of any restriction being imposed upon tenants +in Yell with regard to the disposing of their cattle or other stock on +their ground?-I have known an instance or two of that during my +experience in North Yell, but very seldom. + +5272. Has that been done when they have been in debt to the +merchant?-Yes; if they were in debt, almost beyond redemption. + +5273. Then the merchant has interfered as a creditor merely?-Not +the merchant, but the proprietor. + +5274. Was it for his rent that he interfered?-Yes. + +5275. In these cases was the proprietor a merchant as well?-Yes, +in some cases. + +5276. And he has interfered both for his rent, and for the account +due to him as a merchant?-I cannot say about him being a +merchant. I always understood it was done for rent. I have known +of cattle being taken according to law for a shop account. + +5277. You mean that they were poinded?-Yes, by a Sheriff's +warrant. + +5278. But is there any practice in Yell of a man marking his cattle +as belonging to a merchant to whom he is in debt?-No; I never +knew that done. + +5279. Or coming under an obligation not to sell them to any one +except that merchant?-I could quite believe that a tenant would +offer his cow or his pony, or whatever it might be, to the +proprietor; but I am not aware of any one being compelled to do so +in North Yell. I have myself marked a cow of a defaulting tenant +when I was acting as my brother's agent, and as lessee of Major +Cameron's property, but that was for the rent. + +5280. Did you mark it and allow it to remain on the ground?- +Yes; I allowed it to continue in the tenant's hands until I might +think fit to remove it. + +5281. Was that man in debt to you as well?-He was in debt as a +tenant only for rent. + +5282. Was he not also in debt for goods supplied?-No; because +he was not a fisherman; he was a sailor. + +5283. Would you give a higher price for kelp than 4s. a cwt. if the +women had taken payment of it in goods?-No; there was an +understanding at one time that parties would get 6d. less if they +took it in cash, [Page 131] but for the last two years, in my +experience with Spence & Co., and formerly with myself, the +women have been quite at liberty to take cash or goods, and 4s. +was the price. According to the terms of my lease, I was bound to +pay nothing less than 4s. to the parties who made it. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined. + +5284. You are a tenant under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh at Toab, +Dunrossness, and you fish for him?-Yes. + +5285. You have heard the evidence that was given by William +Goudie and the other fishermen to-day?-Yes. + +5286. Do you know it to be correct with regard to the system of +fishing there, and the obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce of +Sumburgh?-Yes; so far as I can remember, it is correct. + +5287. Did it happen some time ago that you had sold fish to +another than Mr. Bruce?-It was supposed so. + +5288. What was done in consequence?-My house was offered to +be let to another tenant. It was publicly advertised at Messrs. +Hay's shop at Dunrossness. + +5289. The you see the ticket put up?-No, I did not see it. + +5290. But you knew of it?-Yes. + +5291. And in consequence of what you heard about it, did you go +to Mr. Bruce?-Yes. + +5292. What did you say? Did you ask why your farm was to be +let?-Yes. He told me before I had time to speak that he was +forced to offer my house to another tenant. I said there was surely +a cause for that, and he said that the cause was that I was selling +fish to another man. + +5293. To whom did he say you were selling fish?-To Robert +Leslie. + +5294. Was that the case?-No; I proved it not to be the case. I +told him I would bring proof of that if he required it, but I was +never called upon to do so. + +5295. You satisfied Mr. Bruce that he was under a mistake, and +you still hold the same ground?-Yes. + +5296. Had you reason to believe that you would really have been +turned out of your ground for selling your fish to another than Mr. +Bruce if you had done so?-I had every cause to think so. + +5297. Why?-Because at the commencement, when he took the +fishing into his own lands, there was a letter read in my hearing, to +the effect that we were to deliver our fish to him. + +5298. Is that the letter which Laurence Smith spoke of to-day?- +Yes, the same letter. It was read by John Harper in my hearing. + +5299. Do you know whether the meal is dearer at Grutness store +than you can get it elsewhere?-Yes; I have got a little there. + +5300. Have you bought it cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; I have bought +it in Lerwick, and I found it cheaper there than at the store. It was +in 1869 that I bought a boll of meal at Lerwick, and I paid £1, 3s. +for it, while their meal that season was 24s. + +5301. Was there any difference in the weight of the boll at +Grutness?-I could not prove that. I had a running account there, +and I sometimes got a boll, sometimes half a boll, and sometimes a +peck; but when I came to settle, it was all run up into bolls, and I +paid 24s. a boll for it. + +5302. Had you any reason to suppose that you did not get the same +weight in a boll from the store that you got anywhere else?-I +made an objection to that, and I was told there was a little +deduction made when I got 32 lbs. for a quarter boll instead of 35 +lbs, but what that difference was I never knew. + +5303. Who told you that?-Gilbert Irvine, the factor. + +5304. Did he tell you that he only gave you 32 lbs. for a quarter +boll?-I saw the weight myself. What we call a quarter boll is 35 +lbs, and what is called a lispund is 32 lbs.; so that there should be a +difference between what we call boll weight, and 32 lbs. for the +quarter boll. + +5305. Then you suspect or believe that you only got a lispund +instead of a quarter boll?-Yes; I am under that impression, +whether I am correct or not. + +5306. Had you not the means of satisfying yourself about that?- +Perhaps I might if I had inquired, but I never made any strict +inquiry about it. + + +Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY SINCLAIR, examined. + +5307. You are a tenant on the Simbister estate at Levenwick?- +Yes; and I was formerly bound under a tacks-master. + +5308. That was Robert Mouat?-Yes. + +5309. You were bound to fish for him?-Yes. + +5310. Who told you that you were so bound?-He told me himself. + +5311. Did anybody else tell you that?-No. + +5312. Was it understood in the neighbourhood that you were +bound to give all your fish to him?-Yes; all my neighbours +understood the same. + +5313. Did you at any time deliver your fish to another?-Not one +tail. I delivered them all to him during his tack. + +5314. Was there one time when he gave you warning to leave?- +On one occasion, when we had a good fishing, he sent away 7 cwt. +of wet fish and kept it off us. My son was fishing with me at the +time, and he went to Mouat; and they rather cast out about it at +Mouat's house, and he told my son then that we should not be +allowed to sit. + +5315. Then it was because of a quarrel about the quantity of fish +entered in the fish-book that you got your warning?-Yes. + +5316. You were not warned out because you gave your fish to +another dealer?-No; that was not the cause of it. Then, Mouat +would not give me half of the land to sit in, in case my son sat +beside me. + +5317. Do you mean that he wanted your son to fish for him?-No; +he thought that because they had cast out, if I got any land at all, +my son would stay beside me; and that upset my son and made +him lose his senses, so that he is now in the Asylum. + +5318. How did that upset your son?-Because he was of a quick +spirit, and he was grieved that we should have been put out of the +land. + +5319. But you were not put out of the land?-We were. I went to +the sea, and Mouat took my wife to a piece of the hill-side and +showed her there where we should build our house on a piece of +the open hill. + +5320. Did you build your house there?-Yes. He said that if we +would not build our house there, we might lie at the back of a +dyke. + +5321. Did you fish for him after that?-Yes. + +5322. Were you bound to do so?-My son would not fish, but I +was still upon the land, and I just fished for him. + +5323. Did you get your provisions at Mouat's store at +Sandwick?-Yes; I could do nothing else than go to him, and he +has brought me to poverty. + +5324. Did you get your meal and other things there?-Yes; I had +to go there for them all. + +5325. Did you run an account with him, and settle it when you +settled for your fish at the end of the year?-Yes. + +5326. Had you ever a balance to get in money?-I had money in +his hands when I was put out of the land. + +5327. Up till the time when Mouat left the place, were you getting +money from him year by year?-I was just getting out of the shop +what I required, for I never got into debt to him. + +5328. If anything was over did you get it in money [Page 132] at +the settlement?-No; but the worst thing he did was he last time +when he was going about looking for cattle which he could pick +out and put away. + +5329. Did he pick out any from you?-Yes. He took the last one I +had, and he promised to give me a cow for it next week, but it has +never come yet. + +5330. Did you get any meal at Mouat's store?-The greater part of +it was fit for nothing but the pigs. + +5331. Could you have got it better at any other place near you?- +Yes; but we could not get money from him, and therefore we had +to take the meal from his store. + +5332. Would he never advance you money for your fish?-No. +5333. You are not under that obligation now, but you can fish for +anybody you like?-I am not fishing now; I am too old. + +5334. But the people thereabout can fish for anybody they like?- +Yes. + +<Adjourned.> + +Brae: Wednesday, January 10, 1872. +<Present>-Mr. Guthrie. + +JAMES HAY, examined + +5335. Are you a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am a fisherman, but I +have not been at Mossbank. I live at a place called Firth, about a +mile from Mossbank, to the south and east of it. + +5336. Have you a bit of land there?-Yes; a small farm. + +5337. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Thomas Adie. I go to the +ling-fishing in the summer time. + +5338. What bargain do you make with Mr. Adie +about selling your fish to him?-I have never had any bargain +made when I commenced to fish + +5339. You just make up a boat's crew, and you are paid for your +fish at the end of the season according to the current rate?-Yes + +5340. Is it the understanding with all the boats' crews that they are +to be paid at the current rate?-Yes. + +5341. When is the price of your fish paid to you? At Martinmas +when we settle. + +5342. Have you an account in Mr. Adie's books for supplies to + +yourself and your family in the meantime?-Yes. + +5343. Do you deal at his shop for all your provisions and your +purchases of cotton and other things?-I do, for the principal part +of what I need, but not altogether. + +5344. How far do you live from Mr. Adie's nearest shop?-About +71/2 miles; his shop is at Voe. + +5345. Do you always go there for what you want-Yes; generally I +do that, unless sometimes, when I am needing some small things, I +may go to another: but I am not bound to go to his shop unless I +choose to go. + +5346. Then why do you go so far?-Because I generally fish to +Mr. Adie, and I have the greatest part of my dealings with him. I +have not been accustomed to shift very much, unless it might be an +inconvenience to me, and sometimes I have gone to another shop. + +5347. How long have you fished for him?-For about fourteen or +fifteen years. + +5348. When you settle in November or December, have you +generally a balance of cash to receive?-Sometimes I have and +sometimes not. + +5349. Does that depend upon the season?-Yes. + +5350. When it has been a good season, you have generally +something to receive?-Yes. + +5351. How much did you get at last settlement in cash?-I think I +got about £19 in money. + +5352. What was the amount of your account for goods furnished at +the shop?-I had more things in Mr. Adie's hands then than my +summer's winnings; I had cattle in to sell. + +5353. Had you sold cattle to Mr. Adie as well as your fish?-Yes. +I had sold a young stot and a cow; I think they came to about £8. + +5354. Were they sold at a public auction?-Yes. + +5355. And bought by Mr. Adie there?-Mr. Adie. +became good to pay me for them. I could not say exactly who was +the purchaser. + +5356. The price of these animals was included in the £19 you got +in cash?-Yes; I paid my shop account, and then I got that money. + +5357. Then, deducting the price you got for your cattle, there is +£11 remaining as the price you got for your fish?-Yes; but I +owned the boat myself, and I had the other men's hires to get in. + +5358. Were these accounted for to you through Adie's books?- +Yes. There were five of these hires to be paid; there were six of us +in the boat altogether. + +5359. What would be their share of the hire?-I think the hire of a +boat is 50s. + +5360. Then each of them would pay about 8s. 6d.?-Yes. + +5361. So that would be 44s. off for boat-hire, leaving little less +than £9 as the price of your fish, after deducting your shop +account?-No; my share of the summer winning was more than that. + +5362. But I am asking you what you got in cash at settlement?-I +think it was about £19, or perhaps a little more. + +5363. And £8 was taken off for the cow and about 44s. for the +boat-hire?-The price of the cow and stot and my summer's +earnings were all summed up together, and came to a certain +amount; what I had got from Mr. Adie came to a certain amount +too, and when I paid that off I had about £19 to get in clear money. + +5364. But after taking the price of the cow and the value of the +boat-hire off the £19, there would be something like £9 remaining: +was that £9 due to you for anything besides your fish? Was +anything due to you by Mr. Adie, except the price of the cow and +the boat hire, and the price of your fish?-I don't remember +anything else. + +5365. Then £9 would be something like the price of your fish?-I +don't remember. + +5366. Have you a pass-book?-I have one but I have not brought it +with me. + +5367. How much was your shop account?-I think it was about +£17. + +5368. Then your fish would be worth about £26 altogether: was +that the value of your take of fish last year?-No; my fish did not +come to that. I think my sixth share came to about £18; but then, +as I owned boat of my own, and had the expense of her to pay I +was paid a little more than the others, so that I might have more +than £18 to get. + +5369. How do you square up your account at the shop and your +account for fish at the end of the year?-At the end of the year I +may have more things put into Mr. Adie's hands than my fishing. +For instance last year I had that cow and stot, and perhaps some +other things, and these and my fishing are all put together to my +credit. Then my out-takes and things I have been requiring from +Mr. Adie are put too, and the amount they come to is stated to me. + +5370. Is that read over to you, or have you got it [Page 133] +already in your pass-book?-Sometimes I have a passbook, and +sometimes I don't require one. Sometimes I don't fash with it; +that is the truth. + +5371. Why is that?-I thought there was very little need for it, +because Mr. Adie and I never disputed about these things, and +when I had a pass-book I was not very particular about keeping it. + +5372. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the +season if you want it?-I never was refused it when I asked for it. + +5373. Is there generally something due to you for fish at the end +of the season?-Sometimes I have been due Mr. Adie, and +sometimes I have had a little in his hand; but, taking one time with +another, we are generally square, and I am happy to say we are +square in the meantime. + +5374. Is there anything you think could be mended in that way of +settling your accounts?-I don't know, I am sure. + +5375. Was there anything particular you came here to-day to say +about it?-There is one thing I would say, that we fishermen never +know what we are to have when we commence our fishing. We +work away as if we were blind. We don't know what the price is +to be until the time of settlement, and then we must just take what +currency is given, and we can get no further, and can make no +more for ourselves. + +5376. Do you think you could make any better arrangement than +that?-I don't know, I am sure. + +5377. Do you think you would be better off if you made a bargain +for a fixed price to be paid to you at the delivery of your fish?-I +might be better off with that in one season, and I might be worse +off in others; but if I made my bargain for that, I could not +grumble, although the fish could be paid better. At settlement I +must stand by my bargain. Then, if the price of fish was less, the +merchant might lose; so that I don't know which way would be +best. + +5378. But in that way you would know what you were working +for?-Yes; and I would have no reason to grumble if I had made a +bargain, even although I could have made a better thing of it in +another way. + +5379. Have you ever been asked to make a bargain of that kind?- +No. + +5380. Have you ever proposed it yourself?-I have turned it over, +and said that it was a hard thing for a poor fisherman like me to +fish and not know what I was fishing for, when other seamen knew +what they were working for; but I never came to any conclusion +about it. + +5381. Do you think, if you were paid in that way in the course of +the season as the fishing went on, you could make a better use of +your money by purchasing your goods at other places than Mr. +Adie's shop?-I could not say much about that. + +5382. Could you buy your goods as well and as cheaply nearer +home?-I don't think it, because the merchants appear to be all +much about the same in our neighbourhood. They have all one +price for their articles. + +5353. Are the merchants about you all engaged in the fishing +business as well as in the shop business?-Not all of them; but +some of them are. Mr. Pole engaged in it; he is the principal +merchant near us. + +5384. Are there some of them who are not engaged the fishing +business at all?-There is Robert Murray at Swinister; he is not +much engaged in it. His shop about half a mile from where I live. + +5385. Would you be as well served there, and as cheaply, as you +are at Mr. Adie's and at Mr. Pole's?-I don't think would be any +better. + +5386. Would it be any advantage to you to have your money at +your own command?-I might think so. A man is always glad to +have some money to lay his hands upon. + +5387. In answering my question in that way, do you mean to say +that your money is not at your own disposal?-What I have to get +when I settle I get without a word, and it is at my own disposal; +but I would not like to take money from a man when I was due +him anything. I would like always to pay my debts; and what I had +over when I would know was my own, and I would make the best +of it that I could. + +5388. Does that mean that what money you get before settlement +is not your own, and is not at your own disposal?-When I was +standing in need of anything and wanted a little money, which I +did not have myself, I could go to Mr. Adie when I was fishing for +him, and ask him for £1 or £2, and he would give it to me, and +then when I settled I would pay it back to him. + +5389. That is to say, it would be charged against you at +settlement?-Yes. + +5390. But do you mean to say that if you get £1 or £2 in that way, +you would not be at liberty to spend it as you pleased, and to buy +goods with it at any shop you liked?-No. I could go where I +liked with it, if I got it from him, because, of course, I would pay it +back to him again, and he would not care what use I made of it. + +5391. Would you rather have more cash advanced to you during +the season than you have in an ordinary way at present, and not get +all your goods at Voe?-I could not exactly say about that; I +might. If I was paying down cash for the goods, I might get them a +little cheaper than by marking them down. + +5392. Would you get them cheaper for cash at Mr. Adie's own +shop at Voe?-Well, money is a thing that every person is always +glad to get hold of; and he might give me 1d. or 2d. down upon an +article for ready money, which I would not get if he were to mark +it down in his book. + +5393. Do you know that you get a discount of 5 per cent. there for +cash?-I have got it before. I have got 5 per cent. discount when I +settled. + +5394. Was that on goods that were entered in your account?-Yes; +I have got that. I am not perfectly sure if I will get it this year, but +I know that I have got it before. + +5395. If you get that when you settle at the end of the year, would +you get anything more if you were to pay in cash?-I am not able +to say. + +5396. You just think you would like to have your money in your +hand as you deliver your fish: is that the notion you have?-I don't +know whether it would be better to get it in my hand then, or to +wait until I got it all at once at the conclusion. + +5397. Are there some advantages in both ways of dealing?-I +believe there are. + +5398. Perhaps you would spend it too fast if you had it in your own +hands?-I don't know about that. I would not like to spend it if I +had it, unless it was for something that I really required to spend it +on. + +5399. Are you under any obligation to go to Mr. Adie's shop for +the goods you want in the course of the year?-None that I am +aware of. + +5400. You have never been told it of course; but is it a great deal +more convenient for you to go there than to deal at another +shop?-No; it is not more convenient. I could go to it shop +somewhat nearer; but still I don't think I would be any better; and +as it has always been my custom to go there, I just continue to go. + +5401. Is it only because it is your custom to go, or is it because you +are in the way of delivering your fish to Mr. Adie, that you go to +his store?-Mr. Adie has been very obliging to me many times by +helping me when I could not help myself, and therefore I always +felt a warm heart towards him, and went to his store. + +5402. But is it the way with fishermen here, that they got to the +shop of the man that they sell their fish to?-I am not able to +speak to that except for myself. + +5403. Do you not know what your neighbours do? It depends on +the circumstances that my neighbours are in. If they are indebted +to the man they are fishing to, of course they will go to that man, +and perhaps have very little to go to him with. + +5404. Are those neighbours of yours who are so indebted also +likely to engage to fish for the same merchant during the following +season?-Yes. When man is short of money, and has not enough +with [Page 134] which to pay his land rent, he may go to the man +he is fishing to, and he will help him with what he requires, but the +understanding in that case is that he will serve him at the fishing +for the rising year. That is generally the way it is done. + +5405. Do you mean that when a man gets advances at a merchant's +shop, it is understood that he must fish to him in the coming +year?-Yes; that is generally understood. + +5406. Have you had to do that yourself?-No; I have never been so +hard up as that in my time. + +5407. You have never been behind at the settlement?-Not very +often. Sometimes I have been, and I have got advances from Mr. +Adie without a word; but I was intending to fish for him in the +coming year before I asked them. + +5408. And you would make as good a bargain with him as with +any other fishmaster?-I have always thought so. + +5409. So that you did not fish to him because you were under any +compulsion?-No. + +5410. Were you under any obligation to do it because you were in +his debt?-No. I have never been so deep in his debt but what, if I +had it to do, I could have made some effort to get myself clear. + +5411. Therefore the answer you previously gave only meant that +there might be some men among your neighbours so far in debt +that they were obliged to fish to a particular merchant?-Yes; +when he supplied them with goods. + +5412. Do you think there are many of those men among your +neighbours?-I have no doubt there are more that way than there +are the other way. + +5413. Do you think that arises from the length of time that passes +before you can get your money, or is there anything else you can +think of that might mend that state of matters?-I cannot say. + +5414. Is there anything else you want to tell me about the way in +which dealings are carried on here?-No. + +5415. You know you are on your oath, and you bound to speak the +truth, and nobody can hurt you for anything you say to-day?-I +trust that I shall say nothing but the truth, so far as I know. + +5416. From whom do you hold your land and house?-From Mr. +Bell of Lunna. + +5417. Are you not bound by the terms of your lease to fish for any +particular person?-No; he did not bind me to do that. I got +liberty to serve myself and to fish for any one I pleased when I +took the land from him; only if I went to Skerries I would have had +to fish for John Robertson, who had a tack of Mr. Bell's land; but +if I fished in any other way, he did not stop me from fishing for +any person. + +5418. But if you went to Skerries, and fished there during the +summer, you would be bound by your bargain to fish for Mr. +Robertson?-Yes. + +5419. How do you know that that is an obligation upon you?-I +was told so by the proprietor when I took the land. + +5420. Was that told you by Mr. Bell himself?-Yes. + +5421. Did he tell you at the same time, that if you fished elsewhere +than at Skerries, you were at perfect liberty to fish for any one you +liked?-Yes. He told me I was not bound to fish for Mr Robertson +unless I fished at Skerries; but that if I fished at Skerries I must +fish for him. + +5422. Are there people in your neighbourhood who go to fish at +Skerries?-There is one boat which generally fishes there. + +5423. But they might go elsewhere if they chose?-I cannot say +for that. + +5424. Do you know of any person who has been threatened or +turned off his ground on the estate of Lunna in your +neighbourhood for refusing to fish to a particular person?-I do +not. + +5425. Are the fishermen there all free?-About us they are, so far +as I know: that is about Firth, a mile from Mossbank. There are +some of Mr. Bell's tenants who have fished along with me, and +there was nothing said to them any more than to me because they +did not fish at Skerries. + + +Brae, January 10, 1872, ANDREW TULLOCH, examined. + +5426. Where do you live?-In a town called Brough, near +Mossbank. + +5427. Whom do you fish for?-I have been fishing for myself for +two years, and my fish have been sold to Mr. Leask and delivered +at Lerwick. + +5428. Do you cure for yourself?-Yes; I get a man to cure my fish. + +5429. Do you engage a man to cure the whole fish of your boat's +crew?-Yes; it is a small boat. There are three men and two boys +in the crew. + +5430. Do you think you make more of your fish in that way than if +you delivered them green to a fishcurer?-I think so. + +5431. Does Mr. Leask buy them from you cured?-Yes. + +5432. He also cures fish himself?-Yes. + +5433. When is the price fixed for your fish?-I think it was on 1st +November last that we were paid. + +5434. You take all your fish to Lerwick at once, once a year, and +you get your money paid to you at the time?-Yes. + +5435. Is it paid to you in cash?-Yes. + +5436. Do you deal at any shop of Mr. Leask's?-No. I commonly +deal at Mossbank, at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop. + +5437. Do you deal for cash?-Yes. + +5438. You pay ready money for what you get?-Yes. Sometimes I +take things on credit too; but I am not compelled to do it. I need +not do it unless I choose. + +5439. Then you are perfectly free to fish for anybody you like, or +for yourself if you prefer it?-Yes; and I think it is the best way to +fish for myself. + +5440. Is that a common thing in your neighbourhood?-It is not. + +5441. Why don't the men in your neighbourhood adopt that system +if it is the best way?-I don't know. I think for myself, and I +suppose other people do the same. + +5442. On whose ground are you?-I am on ground belonging to +the estate of Busta. + +5443. Are the fishermen on the Busta estate all free?-Yes. + +5444. There is no tacksman over them, but the fishermen as a rule +fish to anybody they like?-I suppose they do; at least, so far as I +know, that is the case. + +5445. In what way do you think you make more of the fish by +curing them yourself than by selling them green?-When I cure +them or get them cured for myself, and sell them, I think I can get +the turn upon them; and I get cash, which enables me to buy my +goods where I can get them cheapest. + +5446. Do you get goods cheaper at the shop at Mossbank by +paying cash than if you were getting them on credit?-No. + +5447. Do you pay the same price for goods there in cash as if they +were to be settled for at the end of the year?-Yes. + +5448. Have you tried both ways?-Yes. + +5449. How long is it since you began to cure your own fish?-It is +only two years ago. + +5450. How much did you make during the last two years for each +man's share?-For the last year we had £8, 13s. each. + +5451. Do you think that was more than the average of men who +fished for other people?-Yes; taking the price of green fish, I +think it was. + +5452. Do you know what any of your neighbours got for their +green fish?-They got 8s. for ling, and 6s. 6d. for cod and tusk. +These were the prices I heard. + +5453. Were you fishing during the whole season?-Yes. + +5454. How many cwts. of cured fish did you take to Mr. Leask?-I +think we had thirty odd cwt. of cured fish; one part of that was +ling, and one part was tusk and cod. We had about nineteen cwt. +of ling and we sold them at £23. + +[Page 135] + +5455. When you say that the price for ling is 8s. a cwt., that is the +price for green ling?-Yes. + +5456. And 21/4 -cwt. of green ling make one cwt. dry?-Yes; that is +what the fish-curers calculate upon. + +5457. So that nineteen cwt. of cured fish would have been +something less than forty-three cwt. green, and you got £23 for +that?-Yes. + +5458. But from that price you must allow something for the +expense of curing?-Yes; it would be from £2 to £2, 10s. per ton +for curing. + +5459. So that you made some profit by selling your fish in that +way?-Yes. + +5460. Do you think that, when you cure for yourself, you have any +benefit by having the money in your hands to buy goods with +where you please?-I think so. + +5461. Do you buy cheaper when you have the money in your +hands?-Yes; we can buy cheaper in Lerwick than we can do +elsewhere. + +5462. Do you often buy things at Lerwick?-Some times I do. + +5463. I thought you said you bought generally at Mossbank?- +Some things I buy at Mossbank; but I buy at several places. + +5464. If you were fishing for a particular fish-merchant, would you +buy more at his shop than you do when you are fishing for +yourself?-That is the general way. + +5465. What is the reason for that?-Because a great many of the +men have not money to go anywhere else. + +5466. And therefore they are induced to go where they can get +credit?-Yes. + +5467. You think that is not such a good way of doing as curing +for yourself, and having the money in your own hands?-It is +not; but, at the same time, even when I was fishing to a particular +fish-curer, I endeavoured to keep my credit; and if I had asked +money from him to go on with, I would have got money as well as +goods. + +5468. It would not have been refused; but I suppose you would +have got more advanced to you in goods than in money?-I could +not say that. + +5469. Suppose that in July, about the middle of the season, when +about half of your fish had been caught, you wanted supplies: +would you generally be allowed in the fish-merchant's shop to get +any quantity of goods you liked on credit?-Yes. + +5470. And would you at that time be advanced any amount of +money that you chose to ask?-Yes; on a moderate scale. I could +get money as well as goods. + +5471. Suppose you were likely to get £20 as the amount of your +fish account at the end of the season and that one half of the +season was over, would they allow you to run up an account at the +fish-merchant's shop to the amount of £10 or £12 to the end of +July?-I don't know. I never tried the experiment. + +5472. But you know the practice among your neighbours and in +the shops where you deal: do you think there would be any +objection to allow an account to run up to £10 or £15 for shop +goods?-I don't think there would. . + +5473. Would there be any objection to advancing you £10 or £15 +in money?-I could not say that. + +5474. Was that ever tried by anybody you know?-No; I never +tried it myself, and I never heard of it being tried, and therefore I +cannot say whether it would be allowed or not. + +5475. But you have no doubt you would get £12 or £15 in +goods?-I have little doubt that I would,-that is, if I were fishing +for that particular fish-curer. + +5476. What fish-curer were you employed by last?-When I was +last employed by any one, it was Mr. Pole, Mossbank. + +5477. At that time did you deal at his shop for your supplies?- +Yes; for the most part. I dealt more with him then than I have +done since. + +5478. Your account was settled, at the end of the year?-Yes. + +5479. What kind of account had you generally at settling time for +supplies to your family?-I cannot recollect exactly how much it +was; but sometimes it may have been £3 or £4. + +5480. Then you will not be spending so much as that in the shop +now?-No; I have not had occasion to do it for the last two years. + +5481. Were you under any sort of obligation to deal at Mr. Pole's +shop more than at another shop when you were fishing for him?- +Not a bit. They did not prevent me from going anywhere I chose. +When I chose to ask anything in their shop, I took it at their own +price; but if I did not like it, they did not compel me to take it. + +5482. Is there anything else you want to say on the subject of this +inquiry?-For my part, I have little to say, because I am not so +much concerned in it as some men are. I have my freedom and my +liberty. + +5483. You think that some other men are more interested in these +matters than you?-Yes. + +5484. In what way are they interested?-Owing to their +circumstances; some of them have families, and they must go to +the fish-curer and be supplied by him. They get most of their +payment in goods, and they cannot get money. + +5485. How can they not get money? Is it because they run up an +account at the merchant's shop?-Yes. + +5486. But they will get money if they ask it?-Yes; they might get +money too. + +5487. Why is it that they do not get money?-I don't know. What +I mean is, that if they run up an account at the shop, they cannot +have money of their own with which to buy things cheaper +elsewhere. + +5488. What makes them run up an account for goods? Is it +because they cannot get money easily?-Very likely it is. + +5489. But you say they would get money if they asked it?-If they +were to ask for money, I don't see any reason why they should not +get it as well as goods. + +5490. And to the same amount?-I cannot say for that. + +5492. Do you mean that the money which they would get if they +were asking for it in the course of the fishing season would be +regarded as a loan, and not as a payment for their fishing?-No. + +5492. Suppose a man were to ask a fish-curer for an advance of +money in July, would not that advance of money in July, would +not that advance be looked upon as if he were asking for a loan of +money?-No; that is not generally the way they would do. If I +were fishing to a fish-curer, and giving him my fish, and if I were +to ask for some money, it would just go to my account in the same +way as if I was taking out goods until the fish were sold at the end +of the year when I settled, and my fish would pay for that money +as well as for the goods. + +5493. But would it not be considered a favour to give money in +that way?-I don't think so. + +5494. Do you think the fish-curer would be bound to give you +money if you asked for it in the beginning of the season?-Yes. + +5495. And would he be as ready to give it to you as he would be to +give you goods?-No; I don't think he could be expected to do +that. However, I cannot say much upon that subject, because I +never asked for much money, + +5496. Did you think it would be asking a favour to ask for +money?-I cannot say. + +5497. Did you think the merchant would rather give you goods?- +Of course he would expect us to take the goods, from the way of +dealing which prevails. + +5498. Do you mean that the practice is for the men to get goods +advances rather than cash advances during the season and before +the settlement?-That depends upon the circumstances of the men +who are fishing. Sometimes they require money to pay their rent +with, and that is generally advanced to them in money; but when +they require goods they usually take them from the fish-curer by +whom they are employed. + +5499. Do you mean that they don't get money unless it is required +by them for some particular purpose?-No; unless they have +money to get on their own earnings. If they have money over at +settlement time, they will get it in cash when the account is +balanced. + +[Page 136] + +5500. Of course they get it at settlement time; but before then can +they get money from the man who employs them, unless for some +particular purpose?-No. + +5501. Any advances that are made then are made in goods?-Yes; +unless they are required in money. + + +Brae, January 10, 1872, JOHN HENDERSON, examined. + +5502. You are a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am. + +5503. On whose land do you live?-On Sheriff Bell's. + +5504. Are you bound to fish to any particular merchant?-No; not +unless I go to the Skerries. + +5505. Who do you fish for just now?-For Mr. Pole. + +5506. Are you settled with at the end of the year like the other +men?-Yes. + +5507. Do you deal at Mr. Pole's shop?-Very little. + +5508. Where else do you go for your articles?-To any shop where +I think I can get them cheapest and best. + +5509. You are quite at liberty to go where you please?-I am. + +5510. You can deal at Lerwick or at Voe, without running any +chance of losing your engagement for the next season?-I can. + +5511. Have you generally a good lot of cash to get from Messrs. +Pole, Hoseason, & Co., at the end of the year?-I have generally +the principal part of my earning to get. + +5512. Why don't you deal more at Mr. Pole's store?-Because, +when I have money, and can go anywhere else, I can perhaps get +my goods a little cheaper. + +5513. Is it not handy for you to deal at the Mossbank shop?-It is +handy, but it is no great hardship for me to go anywhere else if I +think I can get my things a little cheaper. + +5514. Can you tell me any articles that are cheaper in the one place +than in the other?-Meal, for instance, is always higher in +Mossbank than it is in Lerwick. Taking the meal from Mossbank +at the retail price, there will be a difference of perhaps 8s. or 9s. +per sack on that, and on buying a sack in Lerwick for cash. The +sack is 280 lbs. weight, or 2 bolls, and that is a difference of 4s. or +4s. 6d. per boll. + +5515. When did you try that?-I have tried it now for a good few +years. + +5516. Is that the difference if you buy it wholesale,-a sack at a +time?-Yes. + +5517. If you were buying a sack at Mr. Pole's store, how much +would you pay for it?-I have never been under the necessity of +buying a sack there. What meal I have bought at their shop has +always been in small quantities: perhaps about a quarter boll +weekly. + +5518. What is the price of a quarter boll?-It is different prices: +sometimes higher and sometimes lower. + +5519. What did you pay for it last?-I have not had a quarter boll +of meal from Mossbank this year at all, because last year we +thought it too dear, and therefore we gave up taking it. + +5520. Tell me any particular time when you bought meal at +Mossbank, and found that at the same time, or within a short time +after it or before it, you could have got the same meal in Lerwick +for less money?-Not the past summer, but the summer before, I +had meal from Mossbank, taking it in small portions as it was +required, such as a quarter boll weekly; and at the same date, when +I was getting these small portions, I got meal from Lerwick to my +own house for about 10s. of difference on the sack,-only the +meal that I bought from Lerwick was a whole sack, and ready +money was given for it, while the meal bought from Mossbank +was in small portions, and it was got on credit until the time of +settlement. + +5521. Do you think that difference was not accounted for by the +difference between wholesale and retail prices?-For instance, +would you not have got the two bolls at Mossbank, if you had +bought that quantity there, as cheaply as you got them at +Lerwick?-No; there would have been 5s. of difference if I had +bought two bolls there. + +5522. But there would be the expense of carrying the meal from +Lerwick: that would be worth something?-That was 8d., and the +shipping of it 2d. + +5523. Is there any other article you think you have an advantage on +in the same way?-Yes; there are different articles. For instance, +lines are one principal thing we require, and for my sixth share, I +would have nineteen lines in my bundle. + +5524. Do you buy your own lines?-I do. + +5525. Is it the practice with men fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co. +to do so?-Some of them do, and some do not; some of them +have lines of their own; some buy them and pay for them by +instalments; and others hire them. Last year I went to Lerwick and +bought my own lines; and my nineteen lines, when they were +ready to go to sea, cost me £2, 1s. I heard some of the men who +were in the boat say that their portion of the lines, of the same +quantity, cost them 51s. or 52s.; that would be paid for at +settlement. + +5526. Could they have got them cheaper at Mossbank if they had +paid for them there in cash?-I could not say for that, because I +never inquired into it. + +5527. Is there anything else you can mention which you can buy +cheaper elsewhere than you can at Mossbank?-If a man has ready +money, he will always get little discount wherever he may +purchase his goods. + +5528. Then I suppose it is the fault of the men themselves that they +do not get their ready money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and use +it as they like?-Mr. Pole won't refuse money to any man who has +it to get; or if he knows he is an honest man, he will give him an +advance of money, although he does not have it earned. + +5529. But if a man could carry on to the end of the year, he would +get all the price of his fish in cash?-Every penny. + +5530. And then he could do with it as he pleased, and buy where +he chose?-Yes; he could go to any place that was cheapest. + +5531. Have you heard the evidence of James Hay and Andrew +Tulloch?-Yes. + +5532. Do you think that what they stated about the system of +things here was generally correct?-I cannot say that there was +much wrong in what they said; but I think there would not be a +better plan than ready money if it could be obtained. + +5533. Would not all the fishermen get ready money if they +contracted to have a fixed price for their fish, to be paid to them as +the fish were delivered?-They would. There is no fish-merchant +who would not pay them the value of their fish in money if they +have it to get; but how can they get it in money if they take it out +in goods? They cannot expect that. + +5534. But if the men made a bargain that they were to be paid in +money for their fish every time they were delivered, they would +not take it out in goods then?-No; they would have money. + +5535. Is that ever done? Is the bargain ever made for a fixed price +at the beginning of the season to be paid according to the weight of +fish when it is delivered and every time it is delivered?-No; I +never had that bargain, and I never heard of it. + +5536. Have you ever heard of any different bargain from the +common one of settling at the end of the year?-Yes; there is +sometimes a difference in the bargains with regard to the lines, +when men have lines of their own, and do not require to hire them. + +5537. But in all those cases the settlement is at the end of the year + +5538. Have you heard of any bargain for settling at another time +than at the end of the year, and in a different way?-No. + +5539. Did you ever know of men agreeing to fish for wages?-Not +in the ling-fishing. + +[Page 137] + +5540. Do you think free men would agree to that?-I don't know: +some of them might. + +5541. Would you agree to it?-I would just as soon run my own +chance. + + +Brae, January 10, 1872, GILBERT BLANCE, examined. + +5542. You are a fisherman at Mid Garth?-Yes; in the immediate +neighbourhood of Mossbank. + +5543. Do you hold land under Mr. Bell?-No; the landlord under +whom I held is dead, and the property is now under trustees. Mr. +Sievwright, writer, Lerwick, is the factor for it. + +5544. Are you under any obligation to fish to a particular +fish-curer?-No. + +5545. You can fish for anybody you please?-Yes. + +5546. For whom do you fish?-For Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & +Co., + +5547. Do you deal at their shop for all your goods?-Yes. + +5548. Do you find that you have generally a balance to receive in +cash at the settlement?-No; I have generally had a balance +against me. I have never had a balance in cash to receive except in +two special years. One of these was one year when they were +paying 8s. per cwt. for the green fish; and the other was the past +year, when they were also paying 8s. + +5549. Do you think you are as well served at Messrs. Pole, +Hoseason, & Co.'s shop as you would be if you took your money +and spent it where you pleased?-I don't know much about the +difference in that respect. + +5550. Have you ever made any comparison between the prices +which you pay for your goods at their shop, and what you would +pay for them elsewhere?-No, I have never tried that. + +5551. What is generally the amount of the balance against you at +the end of the year?-It may range from £17 to £5. + +5552. Do you get any payments in cash in the course of the +year?-No; very seldom. When men are in debt there are no +payments in cash; but if I need a little money, I can call upon +them for that assistance. + +5553. Do you mean when you want money for rent, or anything of +that sort?-Yes, for rent. + +5554. Do you consider that you are under any obligation to engage +to fish for them in consequence of being in debt in that way?-I +consider myself obliged to fish to them so long as I am indebted to +them. + +5555. Have you ever thought of engaging to fish for another +company, or attempted to do so?-I have thought of it, but I did +not think it was giving them fair play to offer my services to fish +for another when I was indebted to them. + +5556. Do you know many men, who are fishing to them, and who +are indebted to them in the same way?-Yes; there are different +men I know who are indebted to them, perhaps not to so large an +extent, but still to some extent. + +5557. Do they consider it fair to continue to fish to the merchants +to whom they are in debt rather than to engage with another?-We +hear them say very little about that. + +5558. They don't complain?-No; we don't hear them complain +much. + +5559. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if +you were to engage with any one else?-We might make better +bargains with other men, but we cannot attempt to do that in our +present way of fishing. + +5560. Is that because in the present way of fishing no price is +fixed?-Yes; no price is fixed until the end of the year. + +5561. Do you think the price fixed at the end of the year ought +sometimes to be higher than it is?-We sometimes do think that, +because, as has been already stated by the witnesses, although we +are fishing for the whole season, we don't know what we are to +obtain for our fish. That depends upon the market which the +merchant has to make for the fish before he can pay the value of +them. The price will range from 8s. to 4s. 6d., according to the +markets they make. + +5562. The fishermen, I understand, have nothing to do with fixing +the price?-Nothing whatever. + +5563. Have you ever cured your own fish?-No. + +5564. Nor sold them?-No. + +5565. Have you any reason to believe that the current price as +fixed by the fish-merchants is not the fair value of the fish +throughout the season?-Some of the fishermen think they don't +get so much for their fish as they ought to get, but perhaps that +may be a mistake on the part of the men. + +5566. We are all apt to be a little discontented; but do you think +there is any reason for that belief more than the natural tendency +of the men to discontent?-I cannot say whether there is any real +ground for that belief or not. + +5567. You cannot tell any case in which you thought you got less +for your fish than you ought to have got?-I could not mention any +particular instance of that, because we never see the account of +sales which the merchants make of the fish. + +5568. Do you know when the fish sales take place?-I think it is +some time about the month of November. + +5569. How soon after that are you told what you are to get for your +take?-When we come to settle, either on the last of November or +the first of December.. + +5570. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses: do you +think it was generally correct?-I think it was very correct, so far +as I know. + +5571. Has your experience with regard to the system of dealing +been the same as was described by them?-It has been the same as +the last witness described. + +5572. But you don't know whether you got goods dearer at Pole, +Hoseason, & Co.'s shop than you could get them elsewhere?-No, +I don't know anything about that, because all we require, such as +meal, lines, calico, and other things, comes from their shop. + +5573. What price do you pay for meal?-We don't usually buy +meal in wholesale, as the last witness did, but probably in pecks or +two pecks or lispunds. + +5574. Do you keep a pass-book?-No. + +5575. Why not?-Because we trust to the honesty of the +merchants. + +5576. Do they not want you to take a pass-book?-They would +have no objection to us having one, but many of us are not good +arithmeticians, and we could not make much of them although we +had them. + +5577. When you were out fishing, have you sometimes sold your +fish to others than Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I have not been in the +habit of doing that. + +5578. Is it sometimes done?-Perhaps it is by some individuals. + +5579. What is their reason for doing that?-I cannot say what their +reason may be, unless it is to have immediate supplies. + +5580. Or money?-Yes, or money; but it is commonly for +something such as refreshments which they wish to take on their +way to or coming from the fishing-ground. + +5581. Where do you usually meet the people who buy your fish +from you in that way?-Sometimes they are met in the course of +our fishing operations at the land's end. + +5582. On the land?-No; on the sea in a little boat. They will take +any small portion of fish we may give them, and hand us +refreshments in return. + +5583. Do you get a larger sum for your fish in that way?-No; I +never knew of any larger sum that was given in that way than the +country currency. + +5584. Is that practice what you call smuggling the fish?-I suppose +so. + +5585. Do you think it is much done?-It is not much done now. +Formerly it was done to some extent, but not to any great extent. + +5586. I suppose there were some factors or merchants in the +country who did it good deal in buying fish on the sly in that way +at one time?-I believe there was at one time, but not so much +now. + +[Page 138] + +5587. Did they give a higher price for the fish than the fish-curers +give?-Yes. + +5588. Was it a higher price than the currency?-Yes. + +5589. Are there it few of these men still?-Yes. + +5590. They do come from Lerwick?-No; they are just people +living in the country. + +5591. Do they buy the fish either green or cured?-They will take +them more readily green than cured, because they cure them for +themselves. The factor who buys generally cures for himself. + +5592. Is the man who buys fish in that way generally a merchant +who keeps a shop himself somewhere?-Generally he has a small +bit of a shop. + + +Brae, January 10, 1872, THOMAS MOUNTFORD ADIE, examined. + +5593. You are a fish-merchant, and the principal partner of the +firm of T.M. Adie & Co. Voe?-Yes, the business is conducted in +my own name, but my sons have an interest in it. + +5594. Do you employ a great number of fishermen?-Yes, a large +number. + +5595. Are the contracts which you enter into with them different in +some of their details?-As a rule they are much the same. + +5596. Although there may be some difference, the general rule is, +that in the home fishing the fisherman delivers his fish to you at a +price that is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes. + +5597. Have you tried to arrange with your fishermen for dealings +upon any different system from that?-I have not. + +5598. Have you not on one or two occasions made different +arrangements?-On one or two occasions I have made contracts +with some of them for a fixed price. + +5599. That price being fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes. + +5600. Has that generally turned out well?-It did not turn out well +in these cases. The price advanced in the course of the season, and +I had to pay the men the advanced price in order to satisfy them. + +5601. Would the men have been discontented otherwise?-Yes. + +5602. Is it long since that happened?-It is several years now; +perhaps 12 or 14 years ago. + +5603. Do you think it would be any advantage for the curer or the +fishermen if that system were generally adopted?-My impression +is, that the fishermen would suffer, for this reason, that fish in the +summer season are always sold at a less price, and any one buying +green fish must calculate what he can give for them according to +the value of the article then. By delaying the settlement till the +end of the season, the fishermen take the chance of the price either +rising or falling, but the probability is that it will rise, because salt +fish usually sell better in the winter season than in summer. + +5604. So that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the year, +you think it would generally be fixed too low?-Yes. + +5605. But both the fishermen and the master would take into +account at the beginning of the season the probability of the price +rising in winter, and the fact that it generally does rise then, would +they not?-It is scarcely likely that that would be much taken into +account; because when a man buys an article he buys it at the price +of the day, and not at what the price of it may become. There is no +doubt that would be a more satisfactory way of dealing if it could +be done but I don't see how it could be adopted, because no curer +could offer to buy fish offhand at a price that would satisfy the +fishermen. + +5606. Is the probability that the fishermen would be discontented +your principal reason for objecting to that system?-Yes. + +5607. If it could be carried out, would it simplify your own +business?-Yes, it would simplify my business very much. If the +men had boats, and lines of their own, and did not need any +advance, but had all their money to take, and I could pay it at the +end of the week, it would simplify matters very much indeed. + +5608. Under that system, however there would be difficulty in +advancing the men?-We could not give advances to them at all; +and if we did not make advances, they could not go to the fishing. + +5609. Is the system generally followed in your establishment, that +of advancing boats and lines to the fishermen?-Yes, whenever it +is needed. There are solitary cases where men buy their own +boats, having money laid past; but that is very rare. + +5610. When they do so, do they pay the price by instalments, or do +they pay down the money?-They pay for them by instalments on +a particular principle of payment which has been adopted for the +purpose. That principle is this: The boat is built by any carpenter +the men choose to employ; the price is paid for it, and that is +charged to their account. There is generally a hire of £2, 10s. paid +every year for a six-oared boat; that is placed to the credit of the +boat yearly, to enable the men to pay up for their boat, so that they +may really have it of their own, because I consider it would be +better for me if they had them. When the men buy their boats, I +give them 3d. per, cwt. additional for each cwt. of fish caught to +go to the credit of their boat until it is paid; and when once the +boat is their own, they get that additional price into their own +private accounts, and it is paid to them in cash whenever the price +of the boat is paid up. + +5611. Do you mean that you give 3d. per cwt. higher to these men +than you give to men who hire a boat?-Yes. + +5612. And you give that to a man who has a boat of his own to +begin with?-If he has a boat of his own, he gets the 3d. + +5613. Then, when you charge for boat-hire, you charge 3d. per +cwt. in addition on the price of the fish?-No, we don't charge +that, but they get 3d. per cwt. less. For instance, the price this year +for ling was 8s. The crew gets settled for that; and if they had +been buying the boat, we put 3d. per cwt. to the credit of the +account for the boat, in order to enable them to acquire it for +themselves. + +5614. And you would give the same advantage to man who +possessed his own boat originally?-Yes; if he possessed his own +boat, he would be better entitled to it, because then I would be +running no risk. In the other case, the men might lose the boat, +and then I would have nothing to get for it. + +5615. But when you charge the boat-hire, the men are obliged to +take a smaller price for their fish in addition to having the hire to +pay for it?-Yes, and even in that case we are worse off, because +the boats cost much more than the amount of the hire will cover. +We are better off giving them the 3d. to enable them to get a boat +of their own. + +5616. I suppose when the boat is their own the men take better +care of it, and it will last longer?-Yes, very commonly. + +5617. And I suppose they take better care of it even before it +becomes their own?-Generally they do, although I have some +men who take very great care of their materials even when they are +hiring them. There are great differences in men in that way. + +5618. Is that a system you have adopted yourself, in order to +induce the men to become the owners of their own boats?-Yes, I +don't know any other curer who uses it. + +5619. That shows that you have no interest in having the men +hiring out a boat from you?-No; very far from it. + +5620. How long does it generally take for a man to pay off a boat +when he buys it in that way?-Buying it in that way, if their +fishing was anything good, the boat's crew would clear it in about +five fishing seasons. + +5621. It would then become their joint property?-Yes. + +5622. How long does a boat generally last?-The [Page 139] +greatest length of time they are used for is 12 years; but very often +they give them up when they are 6 or 7 years old. Perhaps the boat +is not good, and they won't risk it any longer. + +5623. In that case, do they generally begin a new arrangement for +the purchase of another boat?-Yes, for the purchase of a boat, if +it is their own. If it is a hired boat, then it is thrown on the curer's +hands to provide them with another. + +5624. What is the usual rate for a boat-hire throughout Shetland? +-I think £2, 10s. is a pretty general hire over all for such boats. + +5625. I understand you settle with your own men yearly about +December?-We commence settling about 12th November, and it +takes us a considerable time to get over the whole of our men. + +5626. Has each man dealing with you a pass-book?-No, not all, +but the greater part of them have. + +5627. But you wish them to have pass-books?-Yes; I should be +very glad for them all to have passbooks, if they would only keep +them regularly. When it is a careful man, his book is kept +regularly, and there is very little trouble with him in taking down +his account. + +5628. I understand each fisherman employed by you has an +account in your ledger, in which each year is balanced at the +settling time?-Yes. + +5629. That account on the one side contains the debt which he has +incurred for furnishings to the boat, boat-hire, and the amount of +his shop account, if he has one?-Yes; the boat-hires are generally +kept under the head of a company account in name of the master +of the boat, as for instance, Thomas Robertson & Co. + +5630. Then you have two ledger accounts for your men-one for +the boat's crew, and one for the account of each individual?-Yes; +we very frequently have these accounts entered in the same ledger; +but where the men are fishing at one of our stations, such as Papa, +the company account is settled in the station ledger, which can +always be referred to. + +5631. But in that case the individual man has an account in +another ledger?-He has his account in our general ledger at Voe. + +5632. The boat-hire is generally charged in the company account; +that is to say, all the members of the company are liable for the +boat-hire?-Yes. + +5633. Do a large proportion of the men whom you employ in +fishing have shop accounts at your store?-Yes, a large number of +them; in fact, the most of them have accounts with us more or less. + +5634. That is, apart from the mere outfit which they require for +going to the fishing, they are supplied with goods for their +families, both soft goods and provisions?-Yes. + +5635. Are these transactions generally carried on upon a system of +credit?-Yes, it is credit for the most part; but some men who +have money just pay down the money for what they want, and it is +not entered in our books. + +5636. Are you in the habit of giving a discount when they pay +down money?-Yes, if the amount is worth discounting. + +5637. Can you say what is the average amount of fisherman's +share for the take of fish in any one year?-I was making a +calculation of it this morning, and I think that, taking all the +fishermen we have employed just now, their takes of fish for the +whole year would average about £12, 5s. + +5638. Are you able to say what deductions would fall to be made +from that sum in the case of an ordinary fisherman?-There would +be deducted from it specially his proportion of the boat-hire, and +the yearly payment or hire for his lines. Some of them pay a +yearly payment on their lines, while others hire them. There will +be about 22s. deducted for that, and that is the only special charge +that has to be deducted, except what he has got for his living. + +5639. Are these special charges due by the individual fishermen or +by the boat's crew?-For the lines in all my boats they are due by +each individual, but the boat hire is due by them as a company. + +5640. You spoke of the lines being got by the men either on hire or +by making a yearly payment?-Yes, a yearly payment equal to the +hire which they would pay if they were hiring the lines. For +instance, the pay for the hire of one of these fishing lines is 8d. a +year; but instead of taking that as hire, we credit it yearly to the +men, and so soon as it has liquidated the value of the lines they +become the fisherman's own property; whereas, if a man gets his +outfit and goes to the fishing this season, and does not feel inclined +to go another year, then he has only paid the hire, and the lines +must be returned to me. + +5641. But if a man begins to make a yearly payment by way of +purchasing the lines, he is obliged to go on?-He is not obliged to +go on if he chooses to give up the fishing altogether; but even in +that case it is an advantage to them to have the lines, because they +can always make use of the old ones in some way or other. + +5642. In the case of hired lines and of that sort of purchase by +instalments, where does the risk lie?-The risk lies with the +fisherman in both cases. + +5643. If the hired lines are lost, he pays for them?-Yes. + +5644. And if they are lost while he is buying them, he pays for +them also?-Of course; but if he is hiring a boat, and it is lost at +sea, he is not liable for that boat. + +5645. But he would be liable for the lines in that case?-Yes. + +5646. I don't quite see the distinction between the two cases of +hiring lines and buying them by instalments in the way you have +described. Does it not come to be the same thing to the fisherman +in the end in both cases?-No; if he continues to hire them, then, +when the lines are unfit for prosecuting the fishing any longer, he +must return them to me, and I can make something out of these old +lines-perhaps 6d. a line; whereas, if he has been buying them by +instalments, they belong to the man himself; and if the lines are of +good quality, and he has taken care of them, he may be able to use +them for a season or two after the whole payments have been +made for them. I have some fishermen who have used their lines +at the deep-sea fishing in that way for two seasons after the usual +yearly payment has completed the value of them. + +5647. The deductions you have now mentioned apply to every +case, but at settlement there may be other deductions for the +amount of furnishings supplied to the men during the season?- +Yes. + +5648. Is that the only other deduction which falls to be made in the +ordinary case?-Yes. If the man has been running an account, of +course that must be deducted. + +5649. Are you in a position to say what the ordinary amount of a +fisherman's account at your shop will be in the course of a +season?-Perhaps the ordinary amount will be from £4 to £5. +Some of them will be a great deal more than that; whereas there +are some men fishing to me who won't have 3s. worth out of my +shop in the course of a season. + +5650. The amount differs according to the individual?-Yes, and +according to his needs. + +5651. Is there a large proportion of your fishermen who close the +year somewhat in your debt?-Yes, a considerable number, but +not nearly so many as there were some years ago. + +5652. Has that been in consequence of a succession of good +years?-I think so, but there has been a great change in the habits +of the people. I think they are generally more careful now than +they were. + +5653. Are you able to say from your own observation whether men +who are so much in your debt deal more at your shop than +others?-With some of the men who fish for me, the greatest +difficulty I have is to prevent them from dealing,-not to get them +to buy goods, but to get them not to buy them. Of course there are +black sheep in every flock, and I have men who, after receiving +considerable supplies from my shop, and when I have found it +quite unreasonable to allow them to go further, turned round upon +me and said, 'Well, if you won't give me what I want I will go to +[Page 140] some other body and fish for them.' Of course these +are exceptions. + +5654. They say that to you when they are considerably in your +debt?-Yes; and when they think there is no chance of getting any +more. + +5655. Then it is not an advantage to a fish merchant or to any +merchant, as has been alleged, to have a number of people in his +debt?-Certainly not. The best fishermen are those who are not in +debt. It is a very sad thing to have to settle with a man who has no +money coming to him. + +5656. Can you get as many fishermen to engage with you as you +want, although they should not be in your debt?-Yes; I can get a +man to fish for me more readily who is not in my debt than one +who is in my debt. A man who is in my debt will, make all the +excuses and trouble in the world, but with a man who is not in +debt there is no trouble at all. He sees his way clearly, and it is for +the purpose of saving something for his family that he goes to the +fishing. + +5657. Is it a common subject of complaint with your fishermen, +that the price of the fish is not settled till the end of the year?- +They do speak of that sometimes; and yet, since the question was +mooted in consequence of reports being circulated through the +country with regard to the investigation, which you are now +prosecuting, they are all up in arms for fear any change should be +made. + +5658. Have they come to you objecting to any change being +made?-Yes, a great number of them have done so. + +5659. On what grounds?-Because they think that a change could +not be made for the better. For instance, if an arrangement was +made to pay them for their fish every week, three-fourths of them +could not go to the fishing at all, because they have neither boats +nor lines, nor could they get the necessary supplies to enable them +to go. Then the price which they would receive for the fish would +necessarily be smaller. They have had experience of that at the +fishing stations where there was competition, this one trying to +barter or smuggle a few fish, and the other smuggling a few fish. +They get the very highest price for them which is given at that +time; but then at settlement, even with some of my men who have +sold a few fish, I have had to pay up the difference between the +price they received at the station and the current price which was +being paid at the end of the season. + +5660. That was only in the case where a higher current price was +given at the end of the season than was paid for the fish while the +season was running on?-Yes. + +5661. Have you been often asked to pay a difference of that +sort?-I do it voluntarily. + +5662. Was that for fish which you did not get at all?-No, not for +what I did not get; that I had nothing to do with. + +5663. But you did not get smuggled fish?-Yes, there are +smuggled fish sold to me. My boats sell smuggled fish to another +curer, and boats belonging to another curer sell fish to my factor. + +5664. But why should you pay the difference to your own men +upon any fish which they have smuggled to other curers?-It is not +upon fish they have smuggled that I pay the difference, but there is +a system among my fishermen of having what is called a bucht +line. That is a line of his own, the fish caught by which are sold by +him in order to supply himself with any small article he requires +during the fishing. They settle for these fish at the fishing station; +and if the price which is given at the settlement is larger than what +they have got at the station, I pay them up the difference. + +5665. Is that bucht a device for having a little cash in hand?-A +bucht is the term which they give to one of these fishing lines. + +5666. But is it a device for having some special wants supplied +during the course of the season, and before the settlement comes +round?-It is just a fancy they have; because if all their fish went +one way, and they asked the money, they would get it. It is merely +a thing that has been practised among them for many years, and +the practice has been allowed to continue. + +5667. Is that a practice in your business only, or is it generally +done in Shetland?-It is only done by some. There are many of +our men who do not do it, but some of them do it. + +5668. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash paid in +advances to the fishermen in the course of the year and before +settlement? Do you pay a large sum in that way at your +stations?-I should fancy that over the whole of my fishings £200 +would cover the whole amount that is paid in advances during the +season. + +5669. Your fishings are at Voe, Papa Stour, Stenness, and the +Skerries?-Yes. + +5670. At each of these places you have a factor and a shop for +supplying goods?-Yes; we must have a store. + +5671. Are these stores kept open all the year round?-At Papa and +the Skerries they are: at Stenness the store is only kept during the +summer fishing season. + +5672. And the shop there only supplies the fishermen with what +they need for their own personal use, and not with what they +require for their families?-Just so; but sometimes those men who +have their families in the neighbourhood get a little for them +also,-a little tea, and such as that. + +5673. You say the amount of the shop account will be from £4 or +£5 on an average; so that, after making other deductions, that will +leave something like £4 or £5 payable in cash to an ordinary man +at the end of an ordinary season?-Yes; but there are a great many +of them who have a great deal more than that to get. + +5674. Of course the amount differs according to the seasons, and +according to the individual; but do you think that would be a fair +average?-I should say that about £6 might be taken as an average +of the amount paid in cash. + +5675. Does that apply to all your stations?-Yes, to them all. + +5676. What is the number of fishermen upon your books +altogether?-I should fancy about 400. + +5677. Are these all employed in the summer fishing?-Yes. + +5678. Is there any reason why the whole price of a man's fish +should not be paid to him in money?-The only reason is that he +has already got part of it in goods. Of course we cannot pay for it +in goods and in cash also. + +5679. But is there any reason why he should take it in goods +unless he likes?-None whatever, unless he likes. There is no +compulsion put upon any of the men. + +5680. Don't you think he would be better off if he got the money, +and paid for the goods in cash as he wanted them?-It is quite +possible that he might fancy so; but I cannot see that it would +make much difference. We always deduct the 5 per cent. from the +goods the men have got, the same as if they were purchasing them +for cash. + +5681. So that you make no difference between cash payments, and +paying for them in account in that way?-None in that respect. + +5682. Why is it that you give that amount back in the form of a +discount, instead of charging your goods originally at the same +price?-Of course if a man buys a quarter of a pound of tea, or +half a pound of tobacco we cannot take a discount off that; but we +put the whole of the transactions together at the end of the season, +and a discount is then allowed. If he bought the whole over the +counter, he would pay the price down at once; but he has an +advantage by these small items being added together, and the +discount taken off, which he would not have if he paid for the +articles separately. + +5683. So that you really give a larger discount upon your credit +dealings than, upon your cash dealings?-Yes; the fisherman has a +greater advantage by having a discount upon these small purchases +when they are all taken together, than he would have if he were +paying for them separately. The discount upon two ounces of +tobacco or a quarter pound of tea would be a mere bagatelle; but +when the whole of his purchases [Page 141] in the course of the +year are added together and the 5 per cent. taken off the whole, it +comes to something. With our fishermen, as a rule, I consider that +these accounts are perfectly good, and the same as if a man were +purchasing for cash. + +5684. What do you mean by saying that they are perfectly good?- +I believe we are safe in making these advances to the men. + +5685. That is because you have a security?-We have no security. + +5686. Have you not the security of the fish?-Yes, we have that +security, if he catches the fish. + +5687. Is it upon that principle that you fix the prices at which you +sell your shop goods?-Yes, generally. Of course, if we calculated +upon it being really a bad account, we would require to charge +larger percentage in order to cover the risk; but we would rather +get clear of a man of that kind. + +5688. Do you mean that, when a man is an unsafe customer, you +put a different price on the goods which he buys?-I don't put a +different price on them; but I try to give him as little as I can, +although there are some of these men whom it is very troublesome +to put off without giving them something., + +5689. Is there a competition for employment among the men to be +taken on as fishermen for the summer season?-Yes, considerable. + +5690. Are there men sufficient to man any number of boats you +wish?-Well, I might be too greedy, wish more than I could +manage; but I have found no difficulty hitherto in manning as +many boats as we could reasonably manage. + +5691. You supply your men with groceries as well as soft +goods?-Yes; groceries, soft goods, and meal. + +5692. In fixing the prices of these goods, both the groceries and +soft goods, do you allow it margin for profit, just the same as any +merchant would do in Lerwick, or Wick, or any other town?-I +should fancy it is much the same. Of course, groceries being an +article of daily use, we charge a less percentage on them than we +do on soft goods. Very often soft goods lie on our shelves for a +considerable time, and get damaged, and become unsaleable. + +5693. But I suppose that would be the principle on which the retail +price would be fixed if you deal in only one kind of these articles, +or if you were selling them in any other place than Shetland?-Of +course; that is the principle on which business is conducted +anywhere. I think that goods, for instance soft goods, are sold by +us in retail fully as low as they are in the shops in the south; even +as cheap as they are retailed in Edinburgh. That is easily +accounted for; because they have much larger rents to pay in +Edinburgh than we have here. + +5694. Do you say the same with regard to provisions?-I think +there is not much difference on provisions; only the difference for +freight and insurance. Of course, at a place like Voe, the transport +of bulky goods comes to be very expensive. For instance, at this +season of the year, we cannot get a sack of meal from Aberdeen to +my house under 5s. + +5695. The meal generally is imported about the end the season?- +Yes, generally. + +5696. Did you hear the evidence that was given today by some of +the witnesses about the price of meal?-Yes. + +5697. Are you in a position to say whether the price of meal at Voe +is higher than at Lerwick, or about the same?-It is higher than at +Lerwick as a matter of course, because we have considerable more +expense in bringing it here. We have to bring it up to Brae by +water, then cart it across the isthmus, and bring it to my house in +boats. When the weather is bad, we have to cart it all the way. + +5698. Therefore the price of meal with you is considerably +higher?-Yes; and of any bulky article which requires a +considerable deal of handling and expense of transport. + +5699. What do you suppose the difference is between the price of +meal at Voe and the price at Lerwick?-I should fancy about 2s. +per boll + +5700. Will the difference be that throughout the year?-I think so; +but sometimes in the spring we manage to get a vessel to bring it +in direct; and then we can sell it as cheap as they do at Lerwick. + +5701. Have your men ever made any complaint to you about the +price being higher than it ought to be?-No. + +5702. Is the price stated to them at the time when they get the +meal, or is it generally fixed at settling time?-They know the +price of every article when they buy it + +5703. Do you calculate that the profit upon your provisions and +soft goods, or the profit upon your fish sales, is the greater?-I +cannot say. + +5704. Have you the same percentage of profit upon both?-No; on +the fish sales it is only 5 per cent. + +5705. Is that just a commission?-Yes. + +5706. That is to say, the payment to the men for the fish, the +cost of fitting them out when you do so, and of your curing +establishments, will come up to within 5 per cent. of what you sell +them for to your buyers in the south?-Yes; and then we have to +run the risk of the payments. The fish are all sold on three months +bill. Our fishermen are all settled with this year, and I have not +touched a sixpence for any of our fish yet. + +5707. Does the 5 per cent. cover that risk?-Yes. Of course, if we +discounted these bills, that would run off with 11/4 per cent. of it, +but we just wait until the bills are due. + +5708. Then, if you were under the necessity of paying your +fishermen entirely in cash, and did not carry on your shop +business, would you be obliged to charge a higher profit upon your +fish, or to pay the fishermen less for the fish?-If I had no shop at +all, and merely traded in fish, I would require to deal more in them +than I do, in order to make a living out of it. + +5709. But you can afford to take a smaller commission on your +fish than you would otherwise do, by reason of the fact that you +are carrying on another business at the same time?-Yes. + +5710. You are making two profits, although one of them may be a +very small one?-The one profit is entirely at the option of the +fisherman. He is not obliged to buy the goods unless he chooses. + +5711. Perhaps not, but he would likely require to pay that profit to +another merchant, or certainly to pay some profit, and you would +expect some of that to come to you?-Yes; every one expects +some profit. I employ a good many hands about Voe curing fish. +These are invariably settled with in cash, if they are able to do +without any supplies during the week, but they are always settled +with at the end of the week. + +5712. Theirs is a weekly payment?-Yes. + +5713. But they get supplies during the week?-Sometimes we are +obliged to give them something, otherwise they could not work. + +5714. And that is deducted from their weekly pay?-Yes. At the +stations the curers are generally engaged at a sum for the season. + +5715. In what form are the supplies given at your shop deducted +from the weekly payments at Voe?-For instance, if the girls +working at the fish have earned 5s. a week, and if they have got 2s. +worth of goods, they have only 3s. to get., + +5716. But in what way is it noted that they have got that advance +in goods?-We keep an account of it in our book. + +5717. Is there a ledger account for each worker?-We have what +we term a jot ledger for these weekly accounts. We do not carry +them into our regular working books. + +5718. How many people are employed in that way?-I have +known as high as sixty; they will run from thirty to sixty. + +5719. Do those people ever ask you for cash in the course of the +week?-Sometimes they do but not very often. The length of time +between the pays is so very short that they don't require it, but if +they are in need of cash they get it. + +5720. Do they prefer to take their advances in goods?-They +prefer to take their payment at the end of the week. + +[Page 142] + +5721. But when they require goods in the course the week, do you +give them to them?-Yes; goods and cash are much the same +thing to them; for if we gave them money, they would just turn +round and buy the goods. If they went anywhere else, they must +lose a day's work in going to it. + +5722. I suppose that is one reason why the system of fish-curers +having stores for shop goods exists, because their shops are at such +inconvenient distances from each other?-Yes; the people would +lose so much time in travelling to other places in order to get their +goods, that we require to keep shops for them. If their time is of +any value to them at all, the fact that they have a shop on the spot +far more than compensates them for any difference they may pay +in price. + +5723. But if there were no such shops as yours, would there not be +a class of dealers throughout the island who would provide the +goods that the people want?-I don't know; perhaps there might +be such. + +5724. Does a fisherman not incline rather to deal with the +employer to whom he delivers his fish, than with another?-I think +so. The fishermen and their employers are generally on a friendly +footing, and the man is satisfied that the curer he is fishing to will +do as fairly to him as possible if he is a deserving man. I consider +he gets every advantage that he could naturally expect, and it is an +object with the fish-curers in every way to encourage steady +careful men. + +5725. Will you give me a note of the number of men employed by +you, of the total amount of cash paid to them, and of the total +amount of their shop accounts for 1870, and also for 1867?-Yes. +I found, on looking over my books last night, that the total amount +of cash paid at the present settlement was £2015. That includes +the Faroe fishing too. With regard to the employment of curers at +the stations for a specific sum, I may mention that it would not do +to pay them weekly, because for several weeks, and perhaps +longer, if it is bad weather, these curers will have nothing to do at +all. At the home fishing stations they are paid by a fixed sum +yearly; and the reason for that is, that if we were to pay them +weekly, they would be quite pleased for two or three weeks if they +had nothing to do; but if it came a fine week, and there was a great +quantity of work, they would throw everything up and go home, +and our fishing might be left to perish. + +5726. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing to a great extent?-Not +to a great extent; but I have five vessels. + +5727. In that case, the arrangement with the men is somewhat +different?-Yes, quite different; the men get half the fish, and they +are paid the current price for the dry fish. + +5728. You cure all the fish, and they get half the price of the dried +fish?-Yes. + +5729. So that the calculation is somewhat similar?-Yes. There is +5 per cent. taken off for selling and risk before the division takes +place. + +5730. When is the Faroe fishing at an end?-As rule, it is at an end +in August. + +5731. When are the fish completely cured?-It is sometimes +nearly the end of September before they are cured. + +5732. Is the division made then?-No; the owner of the vessel +sells all the fish, and the division is not made until the settlement. + +5733. In the case of a man who engages with you for the Faroe +fishing, is it usual for an account to be opened in his name in the +same way as with the others?-Yes; we are obliged to supply him +with an outfit. The principle of that agreement is, that the men get +one-half the value of the fish after deducting curing, and the +expenses of converting the fish into cash. They are also allowed 8 +lbs. of biscuit per week; the other provisions they have to furnish +for themselves. + +5734. These supplies are all entered to the man's debit in your +book?-Yes. + +5735. Is it usual for you to supply his family during his absence +with goods on credit in the same way?-Yes; we are very often +obliged to do that in order to keep them from starving. + +5736. Is that done on a larger scale than in home fishing?-No; I +don't think it is done on such a large scale, for the greater number +of the hands going to the Faroe fishing are young men without +families. + +5737. In the Faroe fishing you have not only the 5 per cent. for +selling, but you have the profit on one-half of the fish?-That is +sometimes a very small profit, for the vessels will sometimes be +£100 in debt in the course of a year. + +5738. But that depends on the luck of the voyage?-Yes; we have +one-half of the fish for the vessel. + +5739. You supply the vessel entirely, and the men have nothing to +supply except their fishing lines?-Yes; nothing except their +fishing lines-2 lines, or 21/2, for hauling the fish with. + +5740. Are these lines supplied by you as part of the outfit?-We +have to put them on board the vessel, and then any of the men who +require them can get them. Sometimes the men have lines of their +own, and don't require to take them from us. + +5741. I understand you were engaged at one time in the hosiery +trade?-Yes. + +5742. You used to buy the hosiery in the same way in which it is +now bought in Lerwick?-Yes; always paid in goods, I gave that +business up in 1870. + +5743. Was there any profit made upon that trade?-No; the only +profit I ever made by the hosiery was if we had any profit on the +goods that we bartered for them. We never could realize the price, +as a whole, which I had paid for the hosiery, and consequently we +were obliged to give it up. We had very great difficulty in selling +it. + +5744. Did you sell your hosiery goods south?-I sent them south, +and I had really to take anything they would give us for them. + +5745. You do something in that way still, do you not?-Yes, +occasionally. The principal thing we do is in purchasing goods +from other merchants for sending them south when we get an +order. Then we purchase what kinds of goods suit us. + +5746. Do you buy them in Lerwick?-Yes, and in the country too. + +5747. But you don't buy from the knitters yourself?-I don't buy +from them. Sometimes they will make us buy them whether we +will or not. We cannot get clear of them sometimes, but we don't +want to buy them. + +5748. Are the knitters anxious to get paid in money for their +hosiery?-I don't know. Very likely they have been so long +accustomed to getting goods for them, that they never think of +asking such a thing as money. + +5749. Do you think they would take a less price for hosiery if they +were paid in money?-I don't think it. + +5750. I suppose they want the goods in the country, and they think +they get a profit by taking them?-Yes; for instance, if they have a +pair of socks to sell, they won't sell them under 8d., and if you +offer them 6d. in cash it is no object for them to take it. They +would rather have 8d. worth of goods. In that way they are better +off by getting the goods, because if they got 6d. in cash they would +just lay it out in buying 6d. worth of goods. + +5751. Do you employ beach boys extensively?-Yes, a good +many; not at Voe, but at Papa Stour, Stenness, and Skerries. + +5752. What is the usual wage for a beach boy?-The usual wage +now is from £2 to £3, 10s. for boys. + +5753. What is it for women?-Women don't usually work there. +If we require to employ women on an emergency, then they are +employed at the station at so much per day. There is no regular +wage for them. + +5754. Do the beach boys get accounts opened in their names at +your shop?-We are obliged to do that in order to supply them +with food. Sometimes we have to give them shoes and clothing to +cover them. + +5755. Do they generally get a balance of cash at the [Page 143] +end of the year?-Yes; where they are careful, they have a +considerable balance to get. Some of them will even have more +than half their wages to get in cash. + +5756. Are you tacksman of any estate or an owner of land in +Shetland?-I am not tacksman of anything but the Skerries +Islands. Mr. Bruce of Simbister is the proprietor. + +5757. Are there any people living on these islands permanently all +the year round?-Yes. + +5758. Are they bound to fish for you?-Yes; and they have no +wish to change. + +5759. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce, and you take the risk of their +payments?-Yes. + +5760. In that case their rent enters your account as deduction +against the men?-Yes. I manage Lady Nicholson's property in +Papa, more as a factor for her than as a tacksman. + +5761. Are the fishermen there free to fish to anybody they +please?-Yes. + +5762. But in point of fact they fish to you?-They all fish to me, +for the very simple reason that there is no other one there for them +to fish to. + +5763. Do any of them cure their own fish, or try to do it?-There +is only one native crew who cure their own fish at Papa. + +5764. They prefer to do so, and you make no objection?-None +whatever; and when their fish are cured, they just deliver them to +my man there, and we buy them cured at the current price for +cured fish. + +5765. Do you think these men make as much of their fish as the +other men do?-They do; but they have a great deal of labour with +it. When the season is bad, it requires a great deal of attention +from the whole of these men to attend to a few fish, and to get +them dried, and perhaps it will be well on in September before +they get over with it. They also run a risk their fish being spoiled. + +5766. I suppose some fish are necessarily damaged in the course of +curing?-Yes; it is a very important thing to be particular about +that. They get damaged with rain, and they get damaged with sand +and with the sea-breeze, and they require a great deal of attention. + +5767. Is the rent which you pay for Skerries calculated so as to +allow you a profit upon the rents of the sub-tenants?-No; I pay +£110 of tack duty, and the gross rental from the tenants is only +£68, I virtually pay the difference just for the station-that is, +station rent for the store and premises which are put up there. + +5768. Is it not also for the privilege of having these fishermen to +fish for you?-I believe I could make more of these lands if I had +them as grazing ground, without any fishermen there at all. There +is only one of the Skerries I hold now; one of them has been sold +to the Lighthouse Commissioners. + +5769. If you could make more of the island as grazing ground, why +don't you turn it into that?-If I were to do so, what could I make +of the men? There are fourteen families, and if I turned them +adrift it would be a fearful thing. + +5770. Is it difficult for men to get land in Shetland?-It is very +difficult now; there are so many requiring it, that almost every +place is taken up. I have boats that go from the mainland to fish at +the Skerries with the natives. + +5771. Then it is useful as a station for them?-Yes. + +5772. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the +system of carrying on business, or with reference to the evidence +that has been laid before the Commission previously?-Not so far +as I am aware. + + +Brae, January 10, 1872, CHARLES YOUNG, examined + +5773. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness. + +5774. How long have you been there?-For twenty years. + +5775. Do you hold land there?-No. + +5776. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. John Anderson, Hillswick. + +5777. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes. + +5778. How far is Stenness from Hillswick?-About three miles. I +do not live at Stenness. I live in the south part of North Mavine, at +Manaster, about twelve miles from Stenness. + +5779. Do you go to Stenness merely for the fishing?-Yes. + +5780. Has Mr. Anderson a station there?-Yes; only in summer +and harvest. + +5781. Has Mr. Adie also a station at Stenness?-Yes. + +5782. How long have you fished for Mr. Anderson?-I have fished +for about seventeen years for Anderson Brothers. I fished for two +years at Ollaberry, and I fished for the time I have mentioned for +Anderson & Co. + +5783. How are you paid for your fish? Do you get most of your +payment in goods or in cash at settling time?-I have got most in +cash. + +5784. What is the time for settling?-The settling time +commences about 12th November, but for some years we have +generally settled from 26th to 27th November. + +5785. Do you generally get your supplies during the fishing season +from Mr Anderson at Stenness?-Yes. + +5786. Where is your family supplied? -I do not require much +supplies for my family, I can buy them at any shop in the +neighbourhood. + +5787. Is there any shop at Manaster from which your family are +supplied?-No. The most part of my dealing has been with Mr. +Anderson, but I sometimes deal with Mr. Inkster at Brae, or any +shop I may have occasion to go to. + +5788. Are your family generally supplied by Mr. Anderson at +Hillswick?-No; not as a general rule. + +5789. Do you run an account with Mr. Anderson?-Yes. + +5790. The two sides are balanced at the end of the year in +November, and you generally get a good part of your payment in +cash?-Yes. + +5791. Do you get advances in money during the fishing season?- +Not unless I require them; but if require them, I can get them. + +5792. Do you ask for them as a favour?-No. + +5793. Do you want the money for some particular purpose when +you ask for it?-Yes. + +5794. Do you always get it when you ask it?-Yes. I asked for £5 +this year, about the beginning of the fishing, and I got it without +any difficulty. + +5795. Do you also get any reasonable quantity of goods you +want?-Yes. + +5796. Are the goods supplied to you at Stenness or at Hillswick?- +To a certain extent at Stenness, and for the greater part at +Hillswick. + +5797. Do you go there for them?-Yes. + +5798. Do you get both meal and clothing there?-Yes; I generally +get them there in the summer season for the fishing. + +5799. Is the meal there of good quality and reasonable price?- +Yes; it is about the same as in other parts of the country. + +5800. Would you have any advantage if you were going to another +dealer for your meal and clothing?-I don't think I could have any. + +5801. You think you get your goods as good and as cheap as you +could desire?-Yes; they are as good and as cheap, there as at any +other part of the island. + +5802. Or at Stenness?-Yes; it is not much clothing they have at +that place. It is only a temporary place, where they keep supplies +for the men during the fishing season. + +5803. Then the way in which you deal is very much the same as +has been described by the witnesses from [Page 144] +Mossbank?-Yes; I cannot say there is much difference. + +5804. You are not obliged to fish for any person in particular?- +No. + +5805. You are a free man?-Yes. + +5806. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the +year?-Yes. + +5807. Would you rather be paid all at once in cash?-Yes. + +5808. Why don't you manage to get that done?-I can hardly say; +circumstances won't allow it. Sometimes the reason for it arises +from the way in which we are placed as a crew of men. The curers +will sometimes object to give it to one man in a boat's crew, +unless all the men were alike. + +5809. And all the men would not wish it in cash?-There are not +many who would not wish for it in cash. + +5810. Why could not the whole of the boat's crew get it in cash?- +Because some of the men have got behind, and they cannot +manage to go on throughout the rest of the season unless they get +supplies from the curer. + +5811. They are in the curer's debt at the commencement?-Yes, +or perhaps they might be free men; but they have no opportunity of +supplying themselves with anything until the end of the fishing. + +5812. Therefore, when there are one or two men in boat's crew +who are in that position, the curer objects to give cash payments to +the others?-I cannot say that, because I have not seen it asked by +the rest; but we have been conforming to the old practice that has +been going on of fishing to the curers, and being paid by them at +the end of the season. + +5813. Do you want any change in the system?-The only change I +would want in the system would be to know what I was working +for. I should like to see a change in that respect. + +5814. Would you like to have a price fixed at the beginning of the +year?-Yes; before I commenced to fish, because according to the +system we are proceeding on now we might go to the fishing, and +at the end of the fishing season or at the end of the year when they +settle with us, the merchants could pay us if they liked with 2s. a +cwt. + +5815. Do they not come under an obligation to pay you what is the +current price at the end of the season?-It is not very often that we +enter into engagements of any kind. The men who are free men +generally fish for them, and they just fish upon an understanding +that they are to be paid the country currency. + +5816. But it is understood that they are to be paid the country +currency?-Yes. + +5817. And you would be entitled to get the country currency in any +case?-Yes; but if the fish were going down as low as they might +do, we would still only get the currency. + +5818. Do you mean that the fish are sometimes higher earlier in +the season than they are at the end?-No; what I mean is that the +price varies very much. I have seen the price 4s. 6d. a cwt. in +some years, and 8s. in other years; and if the price were to go +below 4s. 6d., we would still only be paid according to that. But if +we had a fixed price before we went to sea at all, I think that +would be better. If there had been an average price fixed at the +commencement of the season while I have been fishing, I would +have been better satisfied in my own mind, because I would have +known what I was working for. In that way the curer would have +the advantage in some years, and in other years we might have the +advantage. + +5819. Do you think there would be any difficulty in getting the +fishermen to stick to their bargain, if there was an arrangement of +that kind made at the beginning of the season?-I fear there might +be some difficulty with some of them. + +5820. Some of them might think that if the price were to rise, they +ought to get the full value of that rise?-I don't think any +reasonable man could expect that, if he had made a fixed bargain +to be paid so much. + +5821. But you say that some of the men would make a difficulty +about an arrangement of that kind; what do you mean by that?- +The only difficulty I see would be a want of means to supply what +they require in order to fit them for the fishing; but I think the +difficulty might be got over. + +5822. Do you mean that the men would get under weigh even if +there was a fixed price?-I think so. + +5823. When would you have that fixed price paid?-For my own +part I would not care although we were not paid until the same +time when we are paid at present. If it were paid weekly, I don't +know how that system might work. + +5824. Do you think that all the fishermen would like to have a +price fixed in the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that the +whole would like to have it, but for my own part I should like it +and I know there are others besides me. + +5825. Do you think there would be no difficulty in getting credit +from the fish-curer in the same way as at present, if there was a +fixed price?-No; the time for fixing the price might be the only +thing that would be altered, and the settlement would still remain +in November. We would then have a fixed price, and would know +what we were working for. + +5826. You have no objection to the system of advances?-I cannot +say that I have. + +5827. Are you quite at liberty to engage with any fish-curer you +please, and to engage to fish for him through the season?-Yes. + +5828. Has every fisherman the same liberty?-Every one, so far as +I know, in this place. + +5829. Even although he is in debt to the fish-curer?-No; in that +case the fish-curer expects him to fish for him until his debt is +paid. That is generally looked for, and in some instances I know +that they had to agree to do it. + +5830. Do you know that they wished to fish for another curer, +but that they were obliged to fish to the man to whom they were +in debt?-They did not wish to fish to another curer, but that +fish-curer wished them to sign an agreement to fish to him for +the rising season. + +5831. Did they agree to do that?-Yes. They did not say anything +about leaving the fish-curer, but only he wished them to agree. + +5832. At what time of the year was that?-I have seen it done in +the month of November, and also in December. + +5833. Did the fish-curer ask them to do that at a time when they +were wanting further advances of goods or money?-Yes, +advances of money. + +5834. And it was in order that he might have some security for +these advances that he asked them to sign the agreement?-Yes. + +5835. Is that a common thing?-I cannot say it is a common thing +in my experience, but I have known it done in two or three +different cases. + +5836. Where was that?-At Hillswick. + +5837. Have you known it done anywhere else?-No. + +5838. Who were the men with whom it was done?-One man who +told me twice over about it was Hugh Phillip; it happened with +him in two different years. + +5839. Has it happened with anybody else to your knowledge?- +No. + +5840. Was it not quite fair that a man should be expected to work +for the curer until his debt was paid?-Yes. + +5841. How does a man get into such an amount of debt as that? +Is it from dealing with the shop?-I cannot say that the shop +accounts are the cause of it, but it may arise from the +circumstances of his family. The fishing here is the only thing a +man has to depend upon, and sometimes, when it turns out bad +year, he perhaps has taken a greater amount of supply from the +shop for his family than usual. + +5842. Was Phillip's account for shop goods?-It was for an +advance of rent. + +5843. That was what he was taking the money for but was he in +debt before for shop goods?-Yes. + +[Page 145] + +Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM GREEN, examined. + +5844. You live at Sullem?-Yes. + +5845. Are you a boat-skipper?-Yes. + +5846. Where do you fish?-At Stenness. + +5847. To whom do you deliver your fish?-To Mr. Adie. + +5848. Have you done that long?-For six years. + +5849. Do you settle with him at the end of the season?-Yes. + +5850. Did you hear Mr Adie's evidence to-day?-I did. + +5851. Did it give a fair account of the way in which the settlement +is made?-Yes. + +5852. Are you one of the men who generally have a balance in +your favour at the end of the year?-Yes. + +5853. Would it be an advantage to you to have a shorter +settlement?-I don't think so. + +5854. Why?-Because we fish during the year and at the year's +end we settle with him. + +5855. Are you quite content with the settlement as it is?-For my +part I am. + +5856. Do you deal with Mr. Adie's store at Voe to any great +extent?-Yes. + +5857. Do you take your goods from Voe to Sullem?-Yes. + +5858. Is not that a long way to carry them?-It is. + +5859. Could you not get them as good nearer home?-We could +get them much the same but not better. If I want goods, Mr. Adie +will either send them to me, or I may sometimes get the chance of +a boat coming my way. + +5860. How far is it from Sullem to Voe?-Perhaps from eight to +nine miles. + +5861. Are there shops nearer to you than that?-Yes; there is a +shop at Brae, and there is also a shop to the northward. + +5862. Can you get goods as cheap at these shops as at Mr. +Adie's?-Much the same. + +5863. Do you deal as much at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-No; I +deal more with Mr. Adie than with them. + +5864. Is that because you have an account with Mr. Adie?-Yes. + +5865. Do you know whether there is any difference between the +prices in the shop at Voe and at other places?-I see no great +difference. I have tried other places; and if there was any +difference at all, it would be that I could get an article at Mr. +Adie's perhaps a little cheaper than at other places. + +5866. Then the only disadvantage you have in dealing at Voe is the +distance?-Yes. + +5867. And the only advantage you have is that you have an open +account there?-Yes. + +5868. Is that the only reason why you deal there-The boat we fish +in belongs to Mr. Adie; we hire it from him. + +5869. Is that any reason for dealing at Voe?-No but we fish to +Mr. Adie, and we get goods from him as we require them, and at +the year's end we make a settlement. + +5870. There is a convenience in making a settlement at the end +of the time, because you have not to pay for the goods in the +meantime?-Yes. + +5871. But if you got your cash every month or every six weeks, as +you wanted it, would that not save you the trouble of going to Voe +for your goods?-It might. + +5872. Would you not consider that a great advantage?-No, not a +great advantage. + +5873. Do you think it is handier to make a settlement once a year +and go to Voe for your goods?-Yes. + +5874. Are you obliged in any way to go there unless you please to +do so?-No, we are not obliged. + +5875. How much do you generally get in cash at the year's end?- +That varies according to the fishing. I have seen us get £8 or £9 +after deducting our accounts. + +5876. Do you require that money to pay your rent and other things +that you want to buy?-Yes. + + +Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM POLE, examined. + +5877. You are managing partner at Mossbank of the firm of Pole, +Hoseason & Co, merchants and fish-curers?-Yes. + +5878. You have other places in Shetland?-Yes. We have one in +North Yell, at Greenbank; we have also two fishing stations-one +at Feideland, and the other at Gloup. Feideland is at the extreme +end of Northmavine, and Gloup is at the farthest north part of Yell. + +5879. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Adie?-Yes. + +5880. Is the way in which you carry on your business at Mossbank +substantially the same?-Yes, substantially the same. One +difference is that we don't give discount on the fishermen's +accounts in the way Mr. Adie seems to do. + +5881. Is there any other difference that occurs to you?-The +fishermen pay for their lines in some cases by three yearly +instalments, and in the event of fisherman leaving us we are not +bound to take back the lines from him, as Mr. Adie said. But that +is quite a trifling difference. + +5882. What proportion of dried fish do you estimate to be +produced from the green fish, in settling with your men?-It takes +21/4 cwt. of green fish to make 1 cwt. of dry in the case of ling; and +in the case of tusk it takes more. + +5883. Is that a universal calculation in Shetland?-In some years it +is a little less, and in some years a little more. + +5884. Is that not a fixed standard? Is there a fresh calculation +made every year as to the quantity of dried fish produced out of so +much green?-There can be if it is wished. + +5885. Do you not always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green +fish make 1 cwt. of dry?-No; we can make a calculation in order +to get at the quantity of green fish which it takes to make 1 cwt. of +dry. + +5886. On what principle do you act in settling with the +fishermen?-In settling with them we pay them the current price +paid in the country. + +5887. But you calculate that current price on a certain principle +with regard to the quantity of dry fish produced out of green?- +Yes. + +5888. In settling with them, do you always go upon the footing that +21/4 cwt. of green make 1 cwt. of dry, or does that enter into the +settlement with the fishermen at all?-Of course that enters into +the calculation; but then we can know exactly what quantity of +green fish it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry. It is generally about 21/4 +cwt. It may be a few pounds less some years, but it is very seldom +more than 21/4 cwt. We always reckon upon it taking 21/4 cwt. +green of ling to make 1 cwt. of dry; but then the price which we +pay to the fishermen depends altogether upon the price which we +get from the fish dry, and we pay them the current price paid in the +country. + +5889. How is that current price ascertained? Is it by the sales +of each fish-curer, or by the sales of all the firms in Shetland?- +Fish-curers have generally to pay the same price, whether they get +the same price or not; but there is not often any great difference +between the price got by one curer and that got by another. For +instance, we reckon, one 21/4 cwt. green fish to 1 cwt. dry: that, at +8s. a cwt., comes to 18s., and we pay the fishermen for the cwt. +of dry fish. Then the actual cost of curing is reckoned at about +2s. 6d. per cwt. dry. That does not include waste of curing utensils +and management; so that the actual cost of curing the fish would +be nearly £3 a ton, or 3s. a cwt. + +5890. You may sell these fish for about 23s.?-Yes; but there is +more to be taken into the calculation than that. We get £6 from +each boat for the hire of the boat and the lines; but that sum cannot +cover the cost to us, and therefore we have a loss upon the boat +and lines, which has to come off the fish also. + +5891. Is that loss universal?-I think it is, because there is no more +paid for the boats now than was paid twenty years ago, when a +boat wore half as long again [Page 146] as it does now, and when +lines that run for two or three seasons would run for five or six +seasons. + +5892. Is that difference caused by deterioration in the quality of +the articles?-No; it is caused by the boats going further out to the +fishing. They require larger boats and larger sails, and then the +lines are getting more used and more worn. + +5893. I was asking you how the current price is ascertained at the +end of the year?-It is just ascertained in the same way as the +current price of any other commodity in any other place would be +ascertained. + +5894. Do you correspond with other fish-curers in order to find out +the price?-Yes. + +5895. Is there any meeting of fish-curers held at Lerwick or +elsewhere for the purpose of fixing the price?-Not that I am +aware of; not in the case of the haaf fishing. + +5896. Is there any in the case of the Faroe fishing?-I am not sure +about that; but I never attended one. + +5897. Have you been asked to attend one?-No. + +5898. Is there any rule with regard to the fixing of price current in +the Faroe fishing? Do not the fishermen there get one-half the +proceeds of the fishing, whatever the price may be, without +reference to a price current?-It is always expected that the crew +of one vessel will get the same as the crew of another. + +5899. Do you mean the same as the crew of another employed by +the same merchant?-No; by different merchants. That is always +expected, and there is seldom any difference, although it does +happen occasionally. + +5900. Therefore you have heard of a meeting for the purpose of +fixing a price current for the Faroe fishing?-I heard of such a +thing taking place once, but not oftener; and I think it was only +attended by three or four individuals. I think that was a year or +two ago, but I am not certain about the time. Indeed, I am not +certain about the thing; it only occurs to me that I heard about it. + +5901. But the current price for the ordinary ling fishing can be +easily enough ascertained, because you meet one another, and in +your correspondence you may mention it incidentally?-Yes. + +5902. Does it sometimes happen that the fishermen to one +firm complain that they have not got so large price as their +neighbours?-That has happened in my experience once or twice. + +5903. Does that account in any degree for the desire which some +fishermen seem to have for a price to be fixed before the season +begins?-I don't think so. + +5904. Do you think fishermen would be better off if a price were +so fixed?-I do not. + +5905. Why?-Because I think, under the present system, they are +getting the very utmost the fish are worth to any merchant. + +5906. But would it not be better for the fishermen? Would they +not work as well, or better, if they knew the price they were to +get?-I am not very sure about that; I cannot see in what respect +they could possibly be better than they are. + +5907. In your curing establishment do you employ beach boys at a +fixed rate per annum?-Yes. + +5908. Do they open an account in your shop-books in the same +way as a fisherman who is engaged to fish to you for the season?- +Yes, in much the same way. We engage them about this time of +the year, and they require a few trifles about this time. Then, +before they commence work on the beach, they require some +clothing-perhaps some oilskins and boots or shoes. Then they +require meal to keep them going through the season, and they are +settled with at the end. + +5909. What is the amount of the balance generally paid to a beach +boy at settlement time in cash?-From 10s. to 30s. + +5910. Out of wages amounting to from £2 to £3, 10s.?-Yes; we +very seldom pay a boy more than £3. + +5911. Have you any difficulty in getting beach boys?-We do find +a considerable difficulty sometimes. + +5912. Is the supply not equal to the demand?-Not in our case. For +the past year for instance, it has not. + +5913. How does that happen? Are their wages too low, or have +they any other employment nowadays?-Nowadays the boys are +being employed at the fishing sooner than they used to be. + +5914. Are there many people employed in your curing +establishment as day workers?-Yes; they are chiefly women, +but there are a few boys and a few old people. + +5915. How are they paid?-By the day. + +5916. When are they paid?-Whenever they wish + +5917. Is there a weekly pay-day with them?-There may be, if +they wish; but sometimes, for their convenience, we do not settle +weekly. The settlement may run for three, four, five, or six weeks, +or perhaps whole season. + +5918. How many days will these women be employed in the +course of the season? Is it anything like constant employment?- +Yes; at least during the summer. From the end of May till the end +of September we will employ on an average about twenty women +daily at Mossbank, and about ten at Greenbank. + +5919. Do these women run an account at your shop for goods?- +Yes. + +5920. Is a considerable amount of their wages paid to them in +goods?-Yes, a considerable part. + +5921. Is there any understanding or rule that they shall take part of +their wages in goods?-There is no such understanding. + +5922. They are quite at liberty with regard to that-Yes. + +5923. Will they get cash if they ask for it?-Yes, if they have it to +get; but it is a convenience for them to get their goods from our +shop. It saves them the trouble of going a greater distance for +them. + +5924. Is there no other shop there?-Not close by. The nearest +shop is about a mile off, I think. + +5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these +women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their +wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No, +there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that +they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise. + +5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft +goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too. + +5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to +those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there. + +5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with +you?-Yes. + +5929. Have they generally pass-books, or do they prefer to do +without them?-They can get a passbook if they like, but they +seldom do it. + +5930. Are you a landed proprietor?-I am to small extent. + +5931. Are any members of your firm owners of land?-No; not +owners. + +5932. Or tacksmen?-I am a tacksman of some; and we, as a firm, +are factors for one or two small properties. + +5933. Are any other members of the firm tacksmen or proprietors +of land?-Not tacksmen. + +5934. Or proprietors?-No. Mr. Hoseason, I think, is proprietor of +one-fifth part of a rental of £3. + +5935. On the land which you hold as owner or tacksman, are there +many of the tenants who are fishermen and are employed by your +firm?-Yes, there are a great many fishermen. + +5936. Are they under any obligation to fish for you, and not for +another?-Yes; we expect them fish for us in preference. + +5937. That is part of the contract which they enter into for their +ground?-Yes; but it is also understood that we are to give them +the current price of the country. + +5938. What are the properties of which you are tacksman?- +Aywick, in East Yell. + +5939. What is the number of fishermen on that property?-There +are only four or five of them who fish to us. There are a good +many others, but they do not [Page 147] fish to us. Some of these +men go to the whale fishing, and we are not interested in it. + +5940. They are not bound to fish for you if they go to the whale +fishing or to the Faroe fishing?-No; not unless we require them. +If we require them, they will give us the preference willingly. + +5941. Is it part of the arrangement or understanding, that you are +entitled to prevent them from going to the whale fishing or to the +Faroe fishing if you please?-No; they are at perfect liberty to go +to the whale fishing if they prefer it. + +5942. But if they engage in the home fishing they are bound to fish +to you?-Yes, if we wish it. + +5943. What other properties are held in tack by you?-Sandwick, +in North Yell. + +5944. How many men are upon it?-There are seven or eight +families, the heads of which are all fishermen, and they fish to us. +There is another small property called Sellafirth, in North Yell, on +which I think there are four or five men. We are also factors for +George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell. + +5945. Are the men there bound to fish to you?-They all fish to us. +They are not bound to do so; only, it is understood that they are to +fish to us. + +5946. How many of them may there be?-I think six or seven. + These are all the properties of which we are tacksmen. + +5947. Of what properties are you proprietor?-I am proprietor of +small place in Delting, at Mossbank. + +5948. Are there many fishermen on it?-No; only three or four. + +5949. Are they also expected to fish for you?-No; there is only +one of them, I think, who fishes for us. + +5950. Are those fishermen in North Yell who fish for you, and +who live on the land you have mentioned, in the habit of dealing at +your shop at Gloup?-Yes; to a small extent. + +5951. Are your books kept there?-No; Greenbank is the principal +place where they are kept. Gloup is fishing station in connection +with Greenbank. + +5952. The shop accounts at Greenbank are balanced in the same +way against the price of the fish?-Yes. + +5953. Perhaps you will make up a similar statement to that which +Mr. Adie has promised with regard to the amount of the shop +accounts and the indebtedness of the men?-Yes. The systems +pursued at Mossbank and Greenbank are a little different. At +Greenbank we hire both boat and lines to the men; while at +Mossbank the men almost all buy their lines, and hire the boat +only. + +5954. How many accounts do you keep at both places?-I think +about 120 or 130 altogether, for the ling fishing. + +5955. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, to a small +extent. + +5956. Your dealing with regard to it is similar to what Mr. Adie +has described?-Yes, quite the same. + +5957. The men who go to that fishing deal at your shop in the +same way as those who go to the home fishing?-Yes. + +5958. Do they generally incur as large a shop account as the men +who engage in the home fishing?-Not generally. + +5959. Is that because they are young men?-Yes. + +5960. But those who have families are in pretty much the same +condition as the home fishers?-Yes; there is not any material +difference as to the amount of their shop accounts. + +5961. Is there anything you would like to add to what Mr. Adie has +said?-No; I think everything I have to say has been stated +already. + +5962. You are not engaged in the hosiery business?-Only to a +very small extent; we do not turn over £100 of hosiery in a year. +There is one thing I should like to say about the difference in the +price of our meal and the price of meal at Lerwick. I have heard it +said that we average 8s. or 10s. higher than the price there. I may +explain, in the first place, that there was a mistake with regard to +the actual amount of difference; but at that very time the witness +spoke of there was a considerable difference caused by a sudden +rise in the price of meal in the market. At that time the meal rose +several shillings on the sack. Parties who had their meal in before +the rise could sell it without any increase of the price, if they +thought fit; but we happened to bring in meal the very week the +rise came on, so that we had to sell it at an advanced price. + +5963. What was it?-I don't recollect exactly, but recollect that it +was pretty considerable. The usual difference between the price of +our meal and the price of meal in Lerwick is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per +boll + +5964. Was the difference as much as 5s.?-No, it was not so much +as that; but, from the cause I have mentioned, it may have been +considerable. I made an arrangement with a party in Lerwick this +year to send us weekly a price current of the meal in Lerwick, +because sometimes our people do complain that they are charged +more than they could get it for at Lerwick, and I wish to know how +we really act in that way. I should be glad to send that price +current for your inspection. + +5965. Do you wish the prices in it to be compared with the prices +at your own shop?-Yes. + +5966. How are the prices at your shop to be ascertained?-Our +books can show them. + +5967. Are all the sales of meal entered in your books at the time +they take place?-Not all; but when meal is given on credit, the +price is entered in the ledger account opposite the name of the +party. + +5968. You have not got your books here?-No. I was not cited to +attend to-day; but I wished to be examined, and I came forward. + +5969. In what way do you arrange your ledger? Have you an +account in it for each boat's crew?-Yes. + +5970. Is there also a ledger account for each individual?-Yes. + +5971. In that ledger account do you enter on the one side all his +outfit and all the goods supplied to his family or to himself out of +your shop, while on the other side are entered the proceeds of his +fishing, and everything else that may be due to him?-Yes. + +5972. In the case of the properties of which you are tacksman or +proprietor, the rent, I presume, goes into the debit side of the +man's account?-Yes. + +5973. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No. + + +Brae, January 10, 1872, Rev. DUNCAN MILLER, examined. + +5974. You are a clergyman of the United Presbyterian Church at +Mossbank?-I am. + +5975. You have been there for a number of years?-Yes; this is +my fourteenth year. + +5976. You are well acquainted with many of the fishermen and +with their families?-Yes. + +5977. You are aware of the system which exists, of the payments +for the fishermen's catch being settled at long intervals, and of +accounts being run for shop goods with the merchants who buy +their fish?-Yes. I think it is necessary to make a distinction with +regard to the long accounts, because what I suppose is called the +winter fishing is paid for immediately on the fish being landed. + +5978. These are the small fish taken in the winter time?-Yes. + +5979. But for the summer fishing there are these long settlements I +refer to?-Yes. + +5980. Have you formed any opinion as to the effects of that system +upon the habits and character of the people?-I have. + +5981. What conclusion have you arrived at on that matter?-I have +arrived at the conclusion that these effects are very injurious. I +think the men are brought to depend too much upon the shop and +too much upon [Page 148] the merchant, and that in consequence +they rely too little upon themselves. One result of the system +therefore is, that there is a want of prudence amongst the men +generally. I think the pass-book system affords a fatal facility for +men getting into debt, and that many rush into it in that way who +think very little of the debt they incur. Besides, I think the present +system fosters, and has a natural tendency to produce a deceitful +character in the people. For example, they are bound by their +agreement to deliver their fish to the factor of the merchant for +whom they fish, and the result is pretty much as has been stated in +the examinations to-day, that a good many smuggle away their +fish. They think the men who purchase them-I believe they are +called yaggers-give them, a higher price, in many cases, than +they would get from their employers, and therefore they dispose of +fish which really belong to the proprietor of their boats; and all +that is done in an underhand way. + +5982. Have you any knowledge about these yaggers or factors who +come about the country purchasing fish?-I have no knowledge of +them except from the fishermen's own statements. + +5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the +country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at +least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single +boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that +station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the +men belonging to other boats and other proprietors. + +5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure +for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by +purchasing from other boats. + +5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes. + +5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are +called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a +large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better +than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make +purchases. + +5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits +of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result +of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of +general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of +individual cases that have come under my notice. + +5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into +contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the +shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them +do. + +5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt +to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his +fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is +probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to +that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a +general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority +of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can +hope to pay in one year. + +5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering +from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a +considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at +settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I +have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in +debt. + +5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of +years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home +fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a +boat were realizing upwards of £2 in a night. At that time a great +many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about +£20, or from £20 to £30, involved, and I presume they have not +been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that +was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years. + +5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the +fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what +way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of +ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they +never think of making any provision for the future. They know +when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they +can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount +as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of +maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark +that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they +were accused of running too far into debt. + +5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want +of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop. + +5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the +shopkeeper?-They are under his control. + +5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course +under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way +does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become +dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes +their energies. + +5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is +induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on +disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his +dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for +himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an +engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting +his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he +were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at +the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be +able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your +question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a +man being in debt paralyzes his energies. + +5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt +operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to +induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do, +or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his +payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready +money?-The way in which I would understand the system +operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a +merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more +to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without +the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You +will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably +without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new +man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large +family, cannot afford to do that. + +5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any +way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual +obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?- +There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I +believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion +of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again +affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have +spoken of. + +5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they +otherwise would do?-I think so. + +6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The +remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as +possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state +how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the +fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is +requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure +them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures +his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his +own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where +there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of +defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the +merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men +have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on +his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his +losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the +public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit. +Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable +for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing +in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year, +and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if +my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must +have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the +other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a +little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once. +That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the +merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the +fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three +times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could +afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods +cheaper. + +6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from +your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these +merchants are higher than they are at others where that system +does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have +bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were +charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's +provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal +experience as to the difference in that respect. + +6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get +their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general. + +6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a +common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies +from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my +own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above +any difference in price. There are many articles I require which +are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get +such articles as are suitable for me. + +6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued +in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with +that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with. +In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the +hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they +are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is +just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put +themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article. + +6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to +get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would +be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in +everything else. + +6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making +hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although +they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they +prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress. +Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery +goods because they would get money from her for them. They +often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and +in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour +to get her to buy them. + +6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would +rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take +them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for +which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his +child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods +would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery +is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood. + +<Adjourned> + +Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872. +<Present>-Mr. Guthrie. + +WILLIAM BLANCE, examined. + +6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am. + +6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes. + +6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick. + +6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for +him in the summer season for the last six years. + +6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I +have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry. + +6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south. +It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing. + +6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person +they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question. + +6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own +experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might +tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement. + +6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have +been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe +fishing. During that time I have had my freedom + +6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had +your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing. + +6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily +ability was one. + +6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than +to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose. + +6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in +the Faroe fishing?-Yes. + +6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at +liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They +are supposed to fish for their landlord. + +6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under +which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is, +from hearsay. + +6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My +landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give +them to him. + +6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes. + +6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you +would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered +you a good wage?-[No answer.] + +6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must +have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty +until I inquired at my land-master. + +6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too: +have they told you that that is the obligation under which they +lie?-They might have told me, but I forget. + +6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they +lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the +reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is +the understanding that they must fish to the master. + +6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th +January. + +6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes. + +6031. To whom?-I could not read the writing, and I asked a man +to read it for me. + +6032. Who was that man?-Mr. William Irvine. + +6033. Is he Mr. Anderson's shopkeeper at Ollaberry?-Yes. + +6034. Did you go to the shop for the purpose of asking him to read +it to you?-I had other errands besides that. + +6035. But you were at the shop, and you asked him?-Yes. + +6036. Did he read it to you?-Yes. + +6037. Did you say anything to him about it?-I told him I did not +understand it, and I would like if he would explain it. + +6038. Did he explain it?-Yes. + +6039. What did he tell you about it?-He said I need not be afraid +to go, and that I should tell the truth. + +6040. Was that all that passed?-I don't remember anything else. + +6041. Had you much conversation on the subject?-Oh no. + +6042. Did he tell you what you would be asked about?-The +special thing he told me I would be asked about would be what +had taken place between me and himself. + +6043. What did he tell you about that?-He told me to take +any books with me, as I was requested to take pass-books or +documents. + +6044. Did he tell you that the principal thing you would be asked +about would be your dealings with the man you were fishing to?- +Yes. + +6045. That is Mr Adie?-Yes. + +6046. Did he tell you you would be asked anything about your +dealings with your landlord?-No; he told me nothing about that. +I asked him if there was any use taking my land receipt, and he +said he did not think there was. That was all that passed about it. + +6047. Was that all that passed between you about anything?-All +that I remember. + +6048. I am asking you these questions, only because you hesitated +so much in some of your answers. You said the people at +Ollaberry were under an obligation to fish for their landlord?- +As I supposed. + +6049. In point of fact, do all the men there who go to the home +fishing fish for Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say whether all of them +do it. + +6050. Do you know whether most of them do it?-I cannot tell. + +6051. Are you acquainted with all the people in Ollaberry?-No; I +have only been four years there. I am a stranger on that side, so +that I don't know many of the people. + +6052. Do you know most of the people within a mile or two of +you?-I don't think I do. I could not mention them by name. + +6053. But you have spoken to most of them?-I think I have. + +6054. Do they all fish for Mr. Anderson in the home fishing?-[No +answer.] + +6055. Do you know, or do you not? If you do not know, say so?- +I believe they do; but I don't know. + +6056. Have you ever known any man who wished to engage to +another fish-curer, or to cure his own fish, or sell his fish as he +pleased, during the season in Ollaberry?-No; there are none of +the men who do that. + +6057. Do you keep a shop account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-My +dealings are there, for the most part. + +6058. Is there any shop of Mr. Adie's nearer to your house than +Voe?-I cannot say. + +6059. How far is it to Voe from your house?-I have heard it +called thirteen miles; but I don't know. + +6060. Are you married?-Yes. + +6061. Have you a family?-Yes. + +6062. Where do you buy your provisions?-I buy provisions in +Voe, or in any other shop, just as suits my convenience. + +6063. Do you sometimes buy them at the Ollaberry shop?- +Sometimes. + +6064. Anywhere else besides Voe?-Yes, I buy sometimes at +other places. I have bought something at Mr. Anderson's shop at +Hillswick. + +6065. Anywhere else?-Yes, I have had some things elsewhere +too. + +6066. Where?-At Usiness, at Mr. Gilbert Nicholson's. + +6067. Has he a shop of his own there?-Yes; shop is his own, so +far as I know. + +6068. But you get most of your provisions at Voe, and you keep an +account in Mr. Adie's books all the year round, which is settled +about the end of the year?-Yes. + +6069. Is the settlement always before the New Year, or is it +sometimes later?-Sometimes it is later, but it is generally +before. + +6070. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.] + +6071. Have you generally a balance of cash to get at the end of the +year from Mr. Adie?-No. + +6072. Are you generally in his debt to some extent at the end of the +year?-Yes. + +6073. How much were you in debt last settlement?-It was for +something over £7. + +6074. Have you always been in his debt?-Not always. + +6075. How long is it since you had a balance to get?-I am not +sure, but I think it is four years ago. + +6076. I see from your pass-book that you have got a number of +sums of cash paid to you. There are 16s., 8s., 2s. 6d. twice, 9d., +1s. 2d., and 3s. in cash, between December 23, 1870, and +November 27, 1871: did you always get these advances of cash to +account of the fishing that was going on during this season?-I +always got the cash when I asked it. + +6077. Did you get these advances to account of the fishing that +was going on last season?-I was at the fishing last year. + +6078. And you were delivering fish to Mr. Adie at the time you got +that cash?-Yes. + +6079. You were also to some extent in his debt?-Yes. + +6080. Did he give you cash when you asked for it?-Yes. + +6081. Did you get cash from him with which to pay your rent?-A +little: £2. + +6082. That is not marked in your pass-book?-No. + +6083. Did you get it since the last entry was made in your book?- +I got it before January. That is not all my account. + +6084. Have you another book?-No. + +6085. But there are some things which you have got which are not +put in here?-Yes; I have gone to the shop when I did not have my +book, and I have got what I asked. + +6086. What goods you got in that way when you did not have +your pass-book were all put down in Mr. Adie's book, and you +remembered about them when you came to settle?-Sometimes, +and sometimes not. + +6087. If you did not remember them, did you trust to the honesty +of the shopkeeper?-Yes. + +6088. Is your account read over to you at settling time?-Yes, if I +ask it to be done. + +6089. Do you generally ask it?-Sometimes I do not, if I am in a +hurry to get home. + +6090. Then you have perfect confidence in their honesty?-I +always think it would do more harm to them than to me if they +were not honest. + +6091. Does Mr. Anderson send any smacks to the Faroe fishing?- + +Not to my knowledge. + +6092. Do you consider yourself under any obligation to ship in Mr. +Adie's smacks for Faroe?-I do. + +6093. Is that because you are in his debt?-Yes. + +6094. Are there many other men who go in smacks for the same +reason?-I cannot answer that. + +6095. Have you ever heard any of your shipmates say they were in +Mr. Adie's debt, and that they could not ship with anybody else?- +Not so far as I remember. + +[Page 151] + +6096. Do you know whether, in point of fact, many of them are in +debt to Mr. Adie?-I don't know. + +6097. Have you ever heard that they were?-I don't remember. + +6098. When are you told the price you are to get for your fish at +the Faroe fishing? Is it at the settling time?-We are told some +time before, but not long. + +6099. You leave the selling of the fish in the hands of the +merchant entirely?-Yes. + +6100. Is it the bargain that you are to be paid according to the +current price at the end of the year for your half of the fish?-Yes. + +6101. Before bringing out your half, there is a deduction of 5 per +cent. for commission?-I don't know about that. I have heard of +it, but I cannot say anything about it. I forget about these matters. + +6102. Do you understand the bargain you make, and the way in +which the settlement is made for your fish?-We get one half of +the fish, and have to pay for salt and for the drying of the fish. + +6103. Do you know of any other deductions that are made from +your earnings?-Yes; there is a deduction made for part of the bait +with which the fish are caught. + +6104. Is there not something for lines?-We generally buy our +own lines. + +6105. Are these set down as part of your account in the shop?- +Yes. + +6106. But not in the pass-book?-Perhaps not. + +6107. The book you have produced is for your own family +requirements?-I generally take the book with me; and when I +have it, I mark into it what I get out of the shop. + +6108. Is it the boat's crew, or is it you individually, who are liable +for the lines?-Every man takes lines for himself, if he chooses. + +6109. Do you fish any when you come home from the Faroe +fishing?-I fish a little, but nothing that can do me any good +towards selling. I get no selling fish. + +6110. You only fish for your own use, then?-Yes. + +6111. In a small boat of your own?-Yes; or sometimes on the +stones. + +6112. Do you never sell any of the fish that you catch when you +come home from Faroe?-No; I have not sold any for the last four +years, so far as I remember. + +6113. Would it not be easier for you to get your shop goods at +Ollaberry, rather than to bring them fourteen miles from Voe?-If +I want it, I can get anything sent down to Ollaberry. + +6114. How far is it from your house to the shop at Ollaberry?- +About half a mile. + +6115. Do you get things there as good as at Voe?-Yes. + +6116. And as cheap?-Yes, so far as I can judge. + +6117. Would you get them always at Ollaberry if you were not +fishing for Mr. Adie?-I cannot answer that. + +6118. If you were not fishing for Mr. Adie, would you take +the trouble of going to Voe every week or every month, as you +wanted, to bring meal or tea or anything you wanted to buy?- +No, I would not. + +6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use +comes from there. + +6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the +meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book +about with me. + +6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen to +Ollaberry direct. + +6122. How much was there of it at a time?-I don't remember. + +6123. Was there a quantity sent at the same time to other people +besides you?-No; it was only for myself and my family. I got a +boll, or a sack, or whatever I wished Mr. Adie to send for. + +6124. Mr. Adie got it sent from Aberdeen to you?-Yes, because I +could get it cheaper from Aberdeen than from his own store. The +money, of course, was his. + +6125. Are there any other men fishing for Mr. Adie at +Ollaberry?-I don't think there are. + +6126. How did the meal come to Ollaberry from Aberdeen?-It +came by the steamboat to Lerwick; and there are two vessels that +come north, either of which it might have come by,-either the +little steamboat or a packet which ran there. + +6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say. + +6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up. + +6129. Was it this year you got it?-Yes; but I have got it in +previous years in the same way. + +6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't +remember. + +6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago. + +6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?-No, I had it +with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr. +Adie to look over the pass-book. + +6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes. + +6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No. + +6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No. + +6136. Are there any people in your house who knit?-Yes; my +wife knits. + +6137. Where does she sell her hosiery?-She sells it at Ollaberry, +or Lochend, or at Hillswick, whichever place is most convenient. +She buys the wool, and spins it herself. The articles which she +knits are not very fine, and she sells them to any person who will +buy them. + +6138. Is she paid in goods or in money?-Generally in goods. + +6139. Does she sometimes get money?-No; she seldom asks for +it. + +6140. Why does she not ask for it? Does she not want it?-No, +not so far as I know. + +6141. Has she an account in these shops?-She has an account in +some of them. She has an account with Mr. Laurenson at +Lochend. + +6142. Anywhere else?-I don't know. + +6143. Is that an account in your own name, or in hers?-It is an +account of her own, so far as I know. + +6144. Is it quite a separate dealing from anything you have to do +with?-Yes. + +6145. Have you ever had to pay your wife's account at Mr. +Laurenson's?-No. + +6146. Has she ever got money from that account for her hosiery to +pay for your rent or for anything you wanted to buy?-No. + +6147. Is it the practice not to sell hosiery for money in your +neighbourhood?-I cannot say. I know that the general thing is +goods. + +6148. When is your wife's account with Mr. Laurenson settled?- +It is settled when she is able to pay it. + +6149. Has she generally something to pay for what she gets, or has +she a balance in her favour?-It is seldom she has a balance in her +favour. + +6150. If she has such a balance, is it settled in goods?-I cannot +answer that. If she wanted money she might get it, for anything +that I know. + +6151. Do you pay a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' +Society?-Yes; 8s. a year. + +6152. Have you ever lost any lines or a boat?-No. + +6153. Have you ever had anything to receive from the Society?- +Yes; I was once sent home when I was shipwrecked. + +6154. Was that all you have had to get from it?-Yes. + +6155. Do you know of any people who have been turned out of +their land in Shetland?-Not in our district. + +6156. Do you know of any who have been turned out +elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Walker turned out some Delting, on +Major Cameron's estate. + +6157. What was that for?-Because he wanted the land. Some of +them were very anxious to sit if they could have done so, but I +suppose they could not comply with his terms. + +6158. Were these men fishermen?-Yes. + +[Page 152] + +6159. He did not want their service as fishermen?-Not to my +knowledge. + +6160. Do you know of any man who has been turned out of his +ground for refusing to fish, or for selling his fish away from his +landlord or tacksmaster?-Not that I remember of. + +6161. Does your wife sell any eggs?-Yes. + +6162. Anything else off your farm?-She has nothing else to sell. + +6163. Where are your eggs sold?-We generally sell them in +Ollaberry to Mr. Irvine. + +6164. Have you an account there?-Yes. + +6165. Is it settled at the end of the year?-If I am able to settle it; +but if I am not able to settle, then it just stands. + +6166. Are your eggs put down to your account?-No. + +6167. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if I want it. + +6168. How do you pay your account there, if you never get money +from Mr. Adie at Voe?-Generally in this part of the world we are +not confined to one thing. People in this country have sometimes +different ways of getting money. + +6169. Do you follow some other trade?-Yes; I sometimes sew as +a tailor. + +6170. And you make a little money in that way?-Yes. + +6171. Are you paid in money for your tailoring work?-Generally. + +6172. Is that done for your neighbours?-Yes; but I generally work +for Mr. Adie and I am paid in money for that. + +6173. Do you go to Voe to work, or do you go there for it and take +it home?-I take it home. + +6174. Does the payment for that work go into your account with +Mr. Adie?-If I don't want it paid to me, it goes into the account; +but if I want money, I get it. + +6175. When you want money to settle your account with Mr. +Irvine at Ollaberry, is that where you get it?-Not always. + +6176. You get it from a party for whom you have made a coat or +trousers?-Yes. + +6177. You say that your eggs don't go into the account with Mr. +Irvine: are you always paid for them in cash?-Not always. We +sometimes take goods for them; but if we wanted them to go in to +our credit, they would go. + +6178. Do you always take goods for them?-Generally. + +6179. What is the price of your eggs?-For the last year or two +they have generally been 6d. + +6180. Can you sell them anywhere you like?-Yes. + +6181. Could you sell them at Mossbank or at Brae if you could get +a better price there?-So far as I know, we could. + +6182. Nobody would make any objection to that?-Not so far as I +know. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, THOMAS THOMASON, +examined. + +6183. You are a fisherman at Eshaness?-Yes; and I fish at the +fishing station at Stenness. + +6184. Have you a boat of your own?-I have a share of a boat. + +6185. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a +while, but I might fish to any one I choose. I have fished for Mr. +Anderson for a number of years. + +6186. Have you a bit of land?-Yes, on Tangwick estate-Mrs. +Cheyne's. + +6187. Who is the factor there?-Mr. Gifford of Busta. + +6188. Are you quite at liberty to engage to fish with any merchant +you please?-Yes, any one. I am at perfect freedom to fish to any +man, and I have always been so. + +6189. Do you keep an account with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?- +Yes; I always keep my own account myself. + +6190. Have you a pass-book?-No. + +6191. You have an account in his books?-I generally have. + +6192. Do you generally get your supplies and provisions from +him?-I do; but I buy my provisions where I think I can get them +cheapest. I am not bound to get my provisions from him. + +6193. Do you find they are as good at Hillswick as you can get +them anywhere else in the country?-I find that I cannot get much +profit or advantage by going even to Lerwick to buy my goods, +more than by buying them at Hillswick. I could not get so much +profit as would pay me for my trouble. + +6194. Have you bought meal at both places?-I generally buy very +little meal. + +6195. Do you get enough meal off your own ground to serve +you?-Generally I do. I have a pretty good farm-just as much as +will hold us in meal. + +6196. How far do you live from Hillswick?-About four English +miles. + +6197. When you go to Stenness, do you get your supplies there?- +Yes; the supplies that are required for the fishing. + +6198. You keep an account for these with Mr. Anderson at +Hillswick?-Yes. + +6199. And that is balanced every year?-Yes; I settle once a +year-perhaps in November. + +6200. Have you generally a balance to get in cash?-Generally I +have. + +6201. How much did you get last year?-I don't know; the amount +differs yearly. + +6202. But how much had you to get last year?-I don't know. +Perhaps I had £20 to get from him. + +6203. Was that the balance which was due to you?-Yes; I +suppose I got £20 of cash from him last year. + +6204. Was that the whole price of your fish, or was it the balance +which you got in cash?-It was the balance I got in cash. + +6205. Do you think many of your neighbours got much?-I don't +know, for I don't interfere with any man's accounts. + +6206. Are you a skipper?-Yes. + +6207. Have you any idea whether any of your men are as well off +at the end of the year as you are?-I think so. + +6208. Are most of them as well off?-I think so. + +6209. You don't hear them talking about having balance against +them?-No, I don't hear much about that. It does not lie in my +way to interfere with it. + +6210. Do you think the fishermen are better off now than they used +to be long ago?-I think they are a great deal better off. I know I +am much better off than ever my father was. + +6211. How does that happen?-Because my father was a bound +man, and had to fish at a very low price before he could be a +tenant; but being a free man, I pay my rent on a day, and I serve +any man I choose, and make the best bargain for myself that I can. + +6212. Would you be better off if you knew before settling time +what you were to get for your fish at the end of the year?-I know +the price of the fish about settling time. + +6213. But you don't know it until settling time?-No. I might be +worse off if I knew it sooner, because I might get a lower figure, as +the merchant could not be sure then what he would get for his fish. +The price of fish in the south varies yearly. + +6214. Who fixes the price at the end of the season?-I am not able +to answer that exactly. + +6215. What is your bargain about it?-I have had no particular +bargains with the fish-curer; but there is an understanding that I +have to get the highest currency of the country. + +6216. Do you know how that is settled?-I don't; or if I have +heard it, I did not understand. + +6217. You don't know how it is found out what the highest +currency is?-No; I cannot answer that exactly. + +[Page 153] + +6218. Who tells you what it is?-It is publicly known at settlement +what is to be paid for the fish. We know what every man pays, +and what the dry fish can realize. + +6219. Is Hillswick the nearest shop you can go to for your +goods?-It is the nearest shop that I can go to to get good goods. +There are small articles sold nearer, but Hillswick is the only +shop. + +6220. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day to give +evidence?-Nobody told me; but I heard that this was the day +on which the evidence was to be given. + +6221. Who told you that?-I don't remember now who told me. I +think there was a lad from Hillswick who told me about it two +days back. + +6222. What was his name?-Arthur Sandison. + +6223. What does he do?-He is the shopkeeper here for Mr. +Anderson. + +6224. And he told you to come here?-He told me this was the day +when the evidence was to be taken, and that it was to be a public +meeting. I understood something concerning it, and I came here +voluntarily. There was no man who instigated me to come. + +6225. Did Sandison not tell you that you had better come?-I +don't remember him saying that I had better come or not; but, +however, no man instigated me to come. I did not require to be +cross-questioned to come; I just came freely of my own consent. + +6226. You said the fishermen are better off now than they used to +be: can you tell me any difference there is upon their condition?-I +told you already that they were bound men before, but they are not +so now with me. + +6227. Is there anything else in which they are better off?-Yes; I +think a free man is better in every point of view than a bound man. + +6228. Do you think the men get a better price for their fish now?- +I think they are getting double now for their fish what they were +getting about fifty years back, or perhaps forty years. + +6229. Do you know that from your father?-No; I know it from +my uncle's accounts. He was a factor at Stenness; and I see from +his accounts what the price at Stenness was then, and I know what +it is now, and can see the improvement. + +6230. Have you got his accounts?-I have. I have looked into +them at home. + +6231. What kind of accounts are they?-Factor's accounts. + +6232. Do they show the price of the fish, or just the quantities +delivered?-They show the price paid to the fishermen, and also +the price of meal and other articles. + +6233. What was the price of fish in those accounts?-It was as low +as 4s. per cwt. for green fish. + +6234. And it is now about double?-Yes. + +6235. Do you remember the price of meal then?-Meal was +sometimes very high. I remember seeing meal charged at 12s. per +lispund of 32 lbs. This season it has been 5s. 4d. + +6236. But sometimes it is higher?-Yes; the price of meal varies +continually, just as it does in the south market. I don't think there +is much advantage on that score. + +6237. You don't think there is much difference on the price of +meal, but on the price of fish there is a great difference?-Yes. + +6238. Is there anything else you are able to tell me about the +subject of this inquiry?-I don't think so. + +6239. Have you any boys engaged at fish-curing work?-I had one +boy engaged at it during the past season. He was in Mr. Adie's +service at Stenness. + +6240. Mr. Adie keeps a shop there during the fishing season?- +Yes; to supply the fishermen with any necessaries during the time +of the fishing. + +6241. Does your boy keep an account at that shop?-He has only +been employed for one season, and I kept his account and settled +for him myself. He is quite a young boy-only thirteen years of +age. + +6242. Do you think it is better for you to do that than to allow him +to have an account of his own?-He is not capable of keeping +accounts yet. He has had no education for that. + +6243. Had he no separate account in Mr. Adie's shop?-It was a +mere trifle. + +6244. Was he paid his balance?-Yes; it was paid at once in cash. +Mr. Adie paid it to me. + +6245. Is that a usual way of doing with the beach boys?-I think +every one who had cash to get got it at once, and the man who was +careful would get his cash at once. If I had £50 to get from the +fish-curer, I would get it handed to me at once. I say that from my +own personal experience; and that is always so with careful men. + +6246. Then you are a successful man, and I daresay you have a +large balance at your bank account?-I have too large a family to +have a large balance there. I require a great deal of money for my +family. + +6247. Have you ever gone to the Faroe fishing?-I have only been +a ling fisher. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, HENRY WILLIAMSON, +examined. + +6248. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness. + +6249. Do you hold some land on Mrs. Cheyne's estate?-Stenness +is the station where we fish; and the farms we hold under crop, and +where we live, are near it, at Tangwick. + +6250. Your land is on the Busta estate, and you pay your rent to +Mr. Gifford?-Yes. + +6251. Are you free to fish to anybody you like?-Yes. + +6252. For whom do you generally fish?-I have fished for Mr. +Anderson for twenty-three years back. + +6253. Do you get your goods at Mr. Anderson's shop at +Hillswick?-Yes, for the most part, or anywhere else I choose. + +6254. Is there any other shop in the neighbourhood where you get +goods?-Yes, occasionally. There is a shop at Ollaberry; and +there is a store of Mr. Adie's at Stenness, kept by a factor during +the fishing season. + +6255. Are there also some small shops in the country?-Yes. + +6256. Do you sometimes get goods from them?-Yes; if I require +them, and if it is convenient for me. + +6257. But most of your dealings are at Hillswick?-Yes, because it +is near hand. + +6258. Is it as handy a place for you as any?-Yes. + +6259. Do you keep an account there?-Yes. + +6260. Is it settled at the end of the year, when you settle for your +fish?-Yes. + +6261. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year in +cash?-Yes, for the most part I have. + +6262. How much?-It varies very much, according to the fishing. +We had a good season this year, and consequently we had a good +return. + +6263. But sometimes you have a balance against you?-I have not +had that for some time back. When the fishing is good, of course a +careful man will be able to save money. + +6264. Is it five or six years since the balance was on the wrong +side for you?-It is between twelve and twenty years since I was +due anything; but I found no difference in the man I was serving, +when I required money in advance then, than I do now when I +have money of my own to get. + +6265. Do you get cash in the fishing season when you ask for it?- +Yes; whenever I asked for it, even when I had to ask for it in +advance, I got it. + +6266. Are you quite satisfied with the goods you get at the shop?- +I am quite satisfied both with the qualities I receive, and with what +is charged for the goods I require. + +6267. Would it do you any good to have the price of your fish +fixed at the beginning of the year, so that you would know what +you were to get for them?-I am convinced that it would be a great +disadvantage to the fishermen at large in Shetland; and that was +partly [Page 154] what brought me here, when I heard there was +to be a meeting. I knew little about it until I came here, but I +thought I was called upon to come and give you my views upon +it truly. I think the present system in Shetland has done better for +the fishermen than any new system would do which could be +brought in; and I think I know about it, because I have been at +the ling-fishing for fifty-four years. + +6268. Have you always had your price fixed according to the +currency at the end of the year?-Yes. We only know our price +some time before settling time, and I suppose we are paid +according to the current price which rules in the south market. + +6269. Do you think the price is always fairly enough fixed +according to the sales which the fish-merchants have made?-I +think so. + +6270. Do other people not think so?-I don't know. I hear very +little said about that; and as to that, I would not regard much what +others said. I would have more regard to my own views. + +6271. But have you heard complaints made about that?-I have no +doubt I have heard them. It is a very common thing for us to hear +people complaining. + +6272. Is it the men who are bound to fish that are more apt to +complain?-No doubt it is; but I am quite convinced, as I have +already said, that any change in the system will not benefit the +labouring men. + +6273. Why?-Because I think they are fully as well served now as +they could be. Those who are not able to pay at the time for what +goods they require are dealt fairly with, and are never brought to a +stand. + +6274. Then you think it is an advantage for the fishermen, in a bad +season, to be able to get an advance in order to carry them through +until the following year?-I know it is, because, although I have +never been one farthing in debt, yet there are many men with +families who I know, if it had not been for the kindness of the +merchant or his factor in giving them advances, would never have +been able to carry through, because they had no means of their +own, and their families did not support them. + +6275. Are there many men you have known of that kind who +have been carried through the season by the advances of the +fish-merchant?-A great many in some seasons, but not at +present. These have been fine years for Shetland. + +6276. But some seasons ago, when the fishings and the crops were +not so good, were there many such men?-About twenty years ago +there were plenty of them. + +6277. Were there many of them five years ago?-I don't know that +there were so many of them then. There was a bad season a short +time ago; but it is turned twenty years now since there were such +bad times in Shetland, and the people were carried through then +chiefly by the kindness of the merchants for whom they worked. + +6278. They got advances on their accounts just in the same way as +you would get your cash paid to you, if the merchant were due it to +you?-Yes; and not only that, but I know that the curers often paid +their rents for them in cash in advance, although I did not have +much experience of that myself. + +6279. Were these advances generally made in money, or in articles +which the men wanted out of the shop?-Generally in goods. + +6280. When a man wanted food or provisions, I suppose he would +generally get them advanced to him out of the fish-merchant's +shop?-Yes; or any place where it would be most convenient. + +6281. But you say that in these bad years, when a man was behind, +it was the fish-merchant who carried him through?-It was. They +were carried through merely by the agency of the fish-curer. + +6282. Did the fish-curer carry them through by giving them money +with which to pay their rent?-No; the curers brought in sufficient +meal to serve their purposes. + +6283. And that meal was sold at the merchants' shops, and put to +the account of the men?-Yes. + +6284. Was that done with clothing too?-Yes, clothing, and +whatever they required to get. + +6285. But all that was done by these merchants in the confidence +that the men would pay them, if they were able, by the next year's +fishing?-No doubt they were repaid in some cases, but in some +cases the repayment was very slow. That depended altogether +upon whether the times turned out favourable. + +6286. Do you know any of the men who were helped through in +that way?-I have no doubt I know them, but I have no interest to +say much about them. I don't want to enter into that matter at all. +I am getting well advanced in life, and I don't want to speak about +my neighbours' affairs. + +6287. Were there many of your neighbours who were carried +through in that sort of way?-There were a great many of them +who required supplies. + +6288. Did it take a great many years to carry some of them +through, and to enable them to pay up what had been advanced to +them?-I cannot tell how their accounts may be standing at +present. + +6289. Then you only suppose that some of them may have been +able to pay up their debt in the course of the following year?-I +know they did so; and I might take myself as a specimen of that. + +6290. But you said that you have not required any advance for +many years back?-Certainly. + +6291. Do you think that within the last ten or fifteen years there +have been many men who have required to be carried through in +that way?-I don't know. Probably there may have been, but I +have not been requiring that for myself. + +6292. But you have been speaking about your neighbours, and you +say it is an altered time with them?-It is, even within the time +you have mentioned. + +6293. Do you think some of them, within that time, may not have +been able to pay their arrears in the course of next season?-I +cannot exactly say. + +6294. But you have said so?-Well, it would rather appear so. + +6295. You think they may have been so much in debt, that it +required more than one year for them to pay it up?-It is very +probable that may have been the case. + +6296. Have you any boys engaged on the beach?-No. + +6297. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; they are always working +away at it. + +6298. Where do they sell their hosiery?-At different shops. + +6299. Do they go to Lerwick with it?-Sometimes. + +6300. Are they paid for it in goods?-I don't know. I don't inquire +much about it. + +6301. Have they got accounts of their own?-Yes; they keep their +own accounts. + +6302. Do they help you to keep the family?-I am not requiring it. +I can keep my wife and myself; and my two daughters knit to +provide themselves with what they want. I never inquire whether +they get part cash for what they sell or knit. + +6303. Do they clothe themselves by their own knitting?-Yes. + +6304. Do they never help you to buy provisions for the family at +all?-They work very hard at it, but I do not require them to bring +any food into the house. I can buy it myself. + +6305. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day?-No; I came to +Hillswick on an errand to Mr. Anderson's shop, and I heard that +the meeting was to take place to-day. Mr. Sutherland also told me +about it. + +6306. When did you hear about it first?-I can't exactly say. I +heard about it some time in the course of yesterday, but I cannot +say who told me. I told then that there was to be a meeting on +Thursday at the school-house. + +6307. Do you not remember who told you?-No. + +6308. Were you told about it at Stenness?-Yes; I was told about +it in the place where I live. + +6309. But you don't remember who first mentioned it?-I do not. + +6310. Are you sure you don't remember?-Yes; [Page 155] I can't +remember exactly who told me, for I just heard the story among +the public. + +6311. Was that among the public at Stenness?-Yes. + +6312. Was there not some one from Hillswick who brought the +news to you?-There may have been, for anything I know. + +6313. Was it some of your own family who told you-No. I heard +it down at the station, where the boats come in from the sea. + +6314. Was Mr. Sandison there?-Arthur Sandison was at Stenness +on Tuesday. + +6315. Did you see him then?-I did. There were some affairs that +he and I had to manage, because he is Mr. Anderson's factor in +summer, and I have to do with curing fish for Mr. Anderson in +winter. + +6316. Did Sandison tell you about the meeting?-No. + +6317. Are you sure of that?-Yes. + +6318. Did you not speak to him about it on Tuesday?-I don't +remember whether we said much about that, or anything about that +at all. There are various things that I may have exchanged words +about with him which I don't remember. + +6319. Then you may have been speaking to him about it on +Tuesday?-No; I had not heard any word about it on Tuesday. + +6320. Are you able to say that Sandison did not speak to you about +it on Tuesday?-I don't recollect him speaking about it at all. + +6321. Do you swear that you did not speak to Sandison on Tuesday +about this meeting?-I would not be safe to answer, because my +memory might not hold good. Recollection gets short when age +comes on, and I would not care for swearing to that. + +6322. You say it was only yesterday that you heard about the +meeting?-Yes. + +6323. Can you swear you did not hear of it before yesterday?-I +swear that I don't recollect of hearing about it before yesterday. + +6324. Is it possible you may have been speaking to Sandison about +it?-I may have done so; but if I did, I have completely forgotten +about it. + +6325. Do any of your family work at kelp?-Yes; my daughters +work at it. + +6326. What do they get for that?-I suppose the price varies. + +6327. Do they gather the sea-weed and make the kelp themselves, +and sell it?-Yes. + +6328. What do they get for it per cwt.?-I cannot tell. I think the +price is £4 or £4, 10s. per ton; but I am not very sure. + +6329. Do you know how that is paid to them?-They are paid in +cash if they ask for it. + +6330. But they have accounts of their own?-Yes. + +6331. Who do they sell it to?-I think they sell it to Mr. Anderson. + +6332. And it will be settled for when they settle their accounts?-I +believe so. + +6333. Do you know if there is any difference in the price of kelp, +according as it is paid in goods or in cash?-I don't know, for I +have never inquired about that. + +6334. You said that a number of your neighbours had been carried +through by the fish-merchant when they were in arrear from the +badness of the season, and you also said that you knew a great +number who had been so carried through?-Yes, a good many. + +6335. Have you any objection to tell me their names?-I don't +know whether I could call their names to recollection. + +6336. I asked you to tell me their names in private, and you +objected to do so; but I now ask you upon your oath whether you +remember the names of any such men?-I don't think I could tell +any of their names now. I would know their names quite well at +the time when they were getting what they were requiring, but I +cannot name any of them now. + +6337. Is that because you don't remember them?-Yes. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, Mrs. MARY HUGHSON, +examined. + +6338. Are you the wife of Andrew Hughson, a fisherman and +tenant here?-Yes; he is a tenant to Mr. Gifford on the Busta +estate. + +6339. Where do you live?-At Hillswick. + +6340. Is your husband a fisherman?-He is a day labourer for the +most part, and does land-work. He has been at the fishing, but not +lately. + +6341. Is he too old to go to the fishing now?-No; but he has been +used to work on the land. + +6342. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Very little. + +6343. Do you knit any at all?-I knit for the family. + +6344. Don't you sell your hosiery?-I have not sold much here. It +is not very long since we came from Lerwick. + +6345. Did you use to sell it there?-Sometimes. + +6346. Were you always paid for it in goods?-Yes. + +6347. Did you want to get cash for it?-No, I never asked cash. + +6348. Do any of your daughters knit hosiery here?-Yes; and they +sell it in Lerwick, as they were born there. + +6349. Do they always go to Lerwick with it?-No; they sometimes +sell it to Mr. Anderson at Hillswick. + +6350. Do they always get goods for it?-Yes. + +6351. Do they want cash?-They don't ask for it; it is not the +custom. + +6352. Are they quite content to take the price in the goods they +want?-I suppose so. + +6353. Do they also work at kelp?-Yes, in some way, we all work +at kelp. + +6354. How do you sell it?-We get 4s. 6d. per cwt. for it from Mr. +Anderson. + +6355. How are you paid for it?-We are paid in whatever we may +ask for, in meal or tea, or goods of any kind. + +6356. The way in which the kelp trade is carried on is, that you +gather the kelp yourselves, and burn it and sell it?-Yes. + +6357. Have you to pay for the privilege of gathering it?-We pay +nothing. + +6358. Can you sell it to any person you like?-There is no person +buying it here except Mr. Anderson. + +6359. How do you settle about your kelp? Have you an account in +Mr. Anderson's books?-We get what we want, and pay for these +goods with the kelp, and then anything we take out additional goes +into the account for another year. + +6360. Do you only settle once a year?-Yes. + +6361. Do you always get 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it?-Yes; I got 5s. per +cwt. some years ago, but the price is lower now. + +6362. How long, in the course of the year, do you work at the +kelp?-We work at it while the season is dry-from Whitsunday +till the 1st August. + +6363. During that time how many cwts. will you and your +daughters gather?-Some years less, and some years more. +We will sometimes have about £2 worth. + +6364. That will be about half a ton?-Yes. + +6365. Did you take the price of that in goods?-We took some part +of it in clothes, and some part in meal or tea, or just what we +required of money articles. + +6366. What do you mean by money articles?-Groceries, or meal +or bread, or anything of that kind. + +6367. Why do you call them money articles?-Because it is not +often that they are got for hosiery or anything of that sort. + +6368. Is it a common way of speaking here, to call groceries +money articles because they are not given for hosiery?-Tea is +sometimes given for hosiery, and bread and meal. They will +give a certain quantity of these money articles for hosiery if they +are asked for. + +6369. Is there a less price given for the hosiery if it is paid in +money, or in money articles?-I don't know; I never asked or +received money, for hosiery either here or elsewhere. + +[Page 156] + +6370. Is there a different price for kelp according as it is paid in +money or in goods?-I have heard it said that it is 4s. in money, or +4s. 6d. in goods. + +6371. Have you always got the price of it in goods?-Yes. + +6372. Did you never get money for your kelp at all?-No; I never +asked money, and I never got it. + +6373. When is the kelp settled for?-We settle for it when we sell +it. + +6374. Do you sell it all in a lump at the end, or at different times +during the season?-Perhaps we sell it every time we burn it, and +we settle for it then. + +6375. Do you go to the shop and say how much you have?-Yes. +We tell the merchant how much we have, and he takes us in and +pays us for it then. + +6376. Is there anything marked into a book about it?-Nothing. +We get payment for it when we sell it. If we are due anything to +the merchant, he takes it off the price, and then we get the balance +in whatever way we want. + +6377. Do you take the whole value of it at the same time?- +Sometimes, and sometimes not. + +6378. How do you know whether you are due anything at the +time?-We ascertain that from the books. + +6379. Is there an account in your name in Mr. Anderson's +books?-Yes; and if there is anything over at the end of the +season, we get it. + +6380. Is it paid to you in cash at the end of the season?-Yes; if +there is anything due at the end of the season, we get it in cash. + +6381. Have you ever got any cash from him at the end of the +season?-I never asked it, because I just cleared off with him; +and perhaps there was nothing due to me. + +6382. Do you think you would be any better if you were paid in +cash?-I don't know. I am getting so far on in years, that it is not +much cash I would have to get now. + +6383. Do you and your daughters agree to keep the same +account?-Yes; the account is generally in my name. + +6384. Who does your husband work for?-He has been at the +fishing, and he has been doing land-work for different people. He +was working last summer to an Orkney man, who was over here +at the building of the church. + +6385. Does he work at farm-work, or how?-He just works at +day-work, or lime-work, or anything he can get. + +6386. Is he a stone-mason?-He is just a day labourer; he is not a +mason. + +6387. Do you keep an account at the shop at Hillswick for all your +provisions and all the soft goods you want?-I have no account +there just now. + +6388. But you say that you are paid for your kelp by being settled +with in an account?-Yes; we are paid off then for what is due to +us, and there is no other account kept until the following year. + +6389. You say you have never asked to be paid in money: is it all +the same to you whether you are paid in money or in goods?-It is +all the same. + +6390. Do you swear that it is all the same to you?-It has been the +custom to pay in goods, and there is no other place we could go to +where we could get the money, besides if we got the money, we +would just give it back into the shop that was handiest. + +6391. Did you tell any person that you were afraid to come here +today?-No, I was not afraid to come. + +6392. Did you get any advice from any person about speaking the +truth when you came here?-No. + +6393. Are you sure about that?-I came to speak the truth when I +swore to do it. + +6394. But before you came, did you say anything to any one about +being afraid to come, and were you advised to speak the truth?-I +know to speak the truth. + +6395. But did you say anything to any person about being afraid to +come here?-I cannot recollect. I said to Mr. Sutherland that I +wondered there were no other women asked to come besides me +because there are plenty in the place. Mr. Sutherland asked me if I +got money for anything; and I said I never did, and that I never +asked it either for knitting or for kelp. I told him that if I had +asked it I did not know what might have been done; but I never +did ask it, and Mr. Anderson knows himself that I never asked +money for knitting. But when I was asked to come here, I was +nowise afraid to come and tell the truth. + +6396. Did you say to any one that you did not like to come, for fear +of the merchant?-No, I did not say I was afraid for the merchant. + +6397. What did you say about the merchant?-I said I did not +know why other people should not come as well as me, and that I +wondered why no other women were summoned but myself. + +6398. Did Mr. Sutherland advise you to speak the truth when you +come, and not be afraid?-I spoke to Mr. Sutherland, and told him +I did not know where I had to come. + +6399. Did Mr. Anderson speak to you about coming here this +morning? Did you see him to-day?-Yes, I saw him, and I spoke +to him here. + +6400. What did he say to you?-Mr. Anderson told me to bring +my pass-book, whatever state it was in; but it has not been used for +some years. + +6401. Was that it pass-book for the kelp?-Yes, it was it +pass-book for the goods that were used for the family. + +6402. Had you a pass-book some years ago?-Yes; it is in the +house. + +6403. But you don't enter your purchases in that pass-book +now?-No. + +6404. Do you generally buy what you want at Mr. Anderson's +shop?-Yes. + +6405. What do you buy there?-Meal or tea, or whatever I am +needing. + +6406. How do you pay for that? Do you pay in money?- +Sometimes in money and sometimes in knitted things or in work +which my husband does. + +6407. Does your husband work for Mr. Anderson?-Sometimes. + +6408. When he works a day's work to him, does he get his money +for it, or is it put down in the account?-It is put down in the +account. + +6409. But you said you had no account?-Well, I have no account. + +6410. Has your husband an account?-Yes; when I said I had no +account, I meant that I had no account for kelp and hosiery, but +there is an account in my husband's name. + +6411. And when he works for Mr. Anderson, his day's work is put +down in the account?-Yes. + +6412. What does he work at?-Stone-work, or any other kind of +house-building. + +6413. Is that account settled in money or goods?-In goods. I +don't believe he has ready money to get; he is due something. + +6414. Is he generally due something?-Yes; he has been due +something for a while. + +6415. Is it generally for Mr. Anderson that he works?-Only +sometimes. + +6416. When he works for other people, is he paid in money?- +Yes; when he works for Mr. Sutherland, or any man who has no +shop, he gets ready money. + +6417. But if he works for any one who has a shop, is he paid in +goods?-He does not work for any one who has a shop, except Mr. +Anderson. + +6418. And he is not paid in money for that because he is due Mr. +Anderson an account?-His work is put into the account, and he +gets what he needs for the house. + +6419. How many years has he been in that position?-I cannot say; +I have not been settling for him. + +6420. Has he been working in this neighbourhood for a number of +years?-Yes; we came here from Lerwick about 1858. + +6421. When did you begin to get into debt?-I cannot say, because +my husband was at the fishing then. + +6422 Is it long since he got into debt?-It is some years; but I +cannot say how many, because I have not been settling his +account. + +[Page 157] + +6423. Is his account settled every year?-Yes. + +6424. At what time?-About Martinmas or the 1st November, just +at the time when the fishermen are settled with. + +6425. Do you know that there is generally a balance against your +husband at the end of the year?-Yes. + +6426. How much will that balance be?-I cannot say. + +6427. Although there is that balance, you can still get what you +want from the shop in the way of provisions or clothing?-Yes; +when he is working for Mr. Anderson. + +6428. Is he at liberty to work for any person here who will give +him the highest wage?-Yes. + +6429. There is no interference with him in respect to that?-No. + +6430. Then it was your husband's pass-book that Mr. Anderson +referred to when you came here today?-Yes; I told him I did not +have it, but he said I should have brought it. + +6431. But it is a good many years since anything was put into that +pass-book?-It is. + +6432. Is it your fault that the things were not entered?-He was +not working for Mr. Anderson for some time about the time when +the book was stopped. We were buying our meal and other things +at some other place and we were not keeping regular accounts +then. + +6433. Why did you not put your things into the pass-book +when you began again to deal at Hillswick? Could you not be +bothered?-I don't know. + +6434. Did you ask for a pass-book then?-No. + +6435. Is your husband here?-No; he is off fishing at the long lines +to-day. + +6436. Is he one of a boat's crew there?-Yes. + +6437. How many are there in that boat's crew?-I think there are +four. + +6438. Have they gone to fish on their own account?-Yes; they are +just trying to get some fish for the house. + +6439. He is not going to sell them?-No; he has not been in the +habit of doing that. + +6440. Are all the fish he catches in winter used for your own +house?-Yes. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, EUPHEMIA PETERSON, +examined. + +6441. Do you live at Hillswick with your father and mother?- +Yes. + +6442. Is your father a fisherman?-Yes. + +6443. Has he a bit of land?-Yes. + +6444. Do you sometimes knit?-Yes; it is not very much I knit; +the most of it is for my father and brother. + +6445. Do you sometimes sell your knitting?-Sometimes. + +6446. Where do you sell it?-At a place called Hillyard, on the +other side of Roeness Hill, to Laurence Smith. + +6447. How are you paid for it?-I get perhaps 16d. or 18d. for a +spencer. + +6448. Do you get that in money?-No; in goods. + +6449. What kind of goods?-Cotton. + +6450. How many spencers will you take to Mr. Smith at a time?- +Sometimes I only take one. I had three spencers with me the last +time I went, at 16d. apiece. + +6451. That was 4s. What did you get for that?-I bought 41/2 yards +of white cotton; nothing else. + +6452. Was that all you were to get for the 4s., or are you to go +back again?-No; I just got it all in cotton. + +6453. You had not an account there?-No. + +6454. Was it common white cotton you got?-Yes. + +6455. Do you remember what was the price of it per yard?-I +don't remember. + +6456. How long is that ago?-It is about three weeks ago, or +perhaps more. + +6457. Was the cotton a thing which you wanted at the time?-Yes. + +6458. What did you do with it?-I made petticoats and other +things with it. + +6459. Was it fine cotton?-It was sheeting cotton. + +6460. Do you never get money for your knitting at any time?-No; +I never asked money for it. + +6461. Do you knit with your own worsted?-Yes. + +6462. Do you make the worsted yourself out of the wool of your +own sheep?-Yes. + +6463. Do you work at kelp?-I have been at it three times, but I +am not working at it now. + +6464. Did you sell the kelp yourself?-No. I wrought last with +Maria Sandison, and we got 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it from Mr. +Anderson. + +6465. Were you paid by Mr. Anderson for the kelp you had made, +or did Maria Sandison get the money for you?-She got it. + +6466. Then you don't know how the price was settled?-No. + +6467. Did you get money for your share of it?-Yes. I got 2s. 6d. +one time; at another time I got 3s.; and I don't recollect what I got +the other time. + +6468. Did you get that money from Maria?-I got a line for it. I +did not get any money, but I got goods for the line. + +6469. I thought you said you got money?-They will give money if +we ask for it, but I did not ask for the money. + +6470. What did you ask for?-I took goods for it-cotton. + +6471. Did you want the cotton?-Yes. + +6472. Did you get the money from Maria Sandison?-No. She +gave me a note, and I took it to the merchant. + +6473. What was the note?-Just a bit of paper with some writing +put down upon it. + +6474. Was it signed by anybody?-It would be signed by the +shopkeeper. + +6475. And you took that to the shop and got what you wanted?- +Yes. + +6476. How much did you get?-I don't remember. + +6477. How long ago is that?-I don't remember. + +6478. Did you ever get any money for your kelp at all?-I never +got any money; I never asked it. + +6479. Why do you say that you never asked it?-Because I was +just needing the cotton, and I took it. + +6480. But why do you say that you never asked for it? Do you +mean that you would have got it if you had asked?-Yes; I might +have got it. + +6481. How do you know?-There are some who have got it when +they asked for it, but I never did. + +6482. Do most of the women get money for their kelp?-I cannot +say. + +6483. What does your father do with his eggs?-He sells them. + +6484. Have you a great quantity of eggs to sell?-Yes; in summer +we have a good many. + +6485. How many will you have in a week?-I cannot say. + +6486. Do you generally take them to sell?-Sometimes. + +6487. How many will you take at a time?-Perhaps a dozen or half +a dozen. + +6488. What do you get for them?-We sometimes get 6d. a dozen, +but we have got 7d. We got that in the past summer. + +6489. Do you get money for that?-We never take it in money; we +just take in goods. + +6490. Is that the way all the people hereabout do with their +eggs?-I think it is the way that most of them do with them. + +6491. Where do you take them to?-Sometimes to Mr. +Anderson's, and sometimes to Laurence Smith's. + +6492. Is Smith's farther away than Anderson's?-Yes; it is about +two miles from us., + +6493. Do you get the same price from both places?-I got a +halfpenny more from Laurence Smith. + +6494. But the price was paid to you at both places in goods?-Yes. + +6495. What kind of goods do you get for your eggs?-I cannot say; +sometimes we take tea. + +[Page 158] + +6496. Do you just get the goods when you go, or is there an +account kept?-We just get them when we go. We have no +account at all. + +6497. Is your father here to-day?-Yes. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON, +examined. + +6498. You are a merchant and fish-curer in Hillswick?-I am. + +6499. And you are the proprietor of the estate of Ollaberry?-No; I +am only tacksman. + +6500. Is Ollaberry in Northmavine parish?-Yes. + +6501. Your brother, I understand, is proprietor of that estate?- +Yes. + +6502. Do you carry on business at Hillswick under a firm or in +your own name?-In my own name. + +6503. I presume the way in which you arrange for the payment of +your fishermen is similar to that which prevails in other parts of +Shetland-viz. that the fisherman engages to fish for you for the +season at the summer fishing, and to receive payment for his fish +in winter at the price then current after the sales have been made? +-Yes. + +6504. Is it the case also that the way in which you keep accounts +with your fishermen is that a ledger account is opened in name of +each man, in which the entries on one side consist of advances +made to him for the purpose of outfit and lines, boat-hire when the +boat is not his own, or for the price of the boat if he is buying it by +instalments?-Yes. + +6505. And on the other side is entered the price of his fish, and +anything else that may be due to him by you?-Yes. + +6506. Is there any further explanation you desire to make about the +way in which these arrangements entered into and carried out +between you and your fishermen?-I think that is all, except the +inducement I have held out to fishermen to buy their own boats +and lines. My practice for several years past has been that when +they bought their own boats and lines, and were free of debt, I +allowed them 6d. a cwt. extra on their fish. + +6507. That is to say, that a fisherman who hires his boat, or one +who is paying up the price of his boat by instalments, or who is in +debt, is paid for his fish 6d. a cwt. less than one who is not in your +books for boat-hire or for the price of his boat?-Yes. + +6508. Is that intended as an inducement to a man to get clear of his +boat-hire or of debts of that sort?-Yes, it was so intended by me. + +6509. How long has that system been in operation?-I think since +1864. + +6510. Have many of the fishermen got clear of their debts in +consequence of that inducement, so far as you can judge by your +experience?-I think so. + +6511. You think that system has had a beneficial effect?-I think +so, judging from the diminution of the debts. I have taken the last +four years, and struck an average with regard to that. + +6512. You have made a calculation applying to the last four years, +showing what?-Showing the degree in which the fishermen have +reduced their debts. I don't have that calculation with me here. + +6513. Was it made for your own private use?-Yes. I wanted to +see whether I was correct in giving the fishermen that advantage, +and I found that the average amount to which the fishermen were +in debt was £13 each year. + +6514. Was that an average only of those who were in debt?-Yes. + +6515. And your calculation showed that the average debt of each +fisherman was £13 this year?-Not this year, but taking the +average for four years. + +6516. I understood it was entered into for the purpose of +comparison with the period before the system you have now +mentioned was introduced?-No. The calculation I made was +for the purpose of satisfying myself whether I was correct in +giving that 6d. per cwt. in advance extra. + +6517. Then do you find that the fishermen who are in your debt +now were indebted to you to the amount of £13 on an average?- +Yes. + +6518. Are you of opinion that that is a less amount of debt per man +than existed before that system introduced?-I am. + +6519. Did you enter into any calculation over period of years +before the introduction of the system, in order to compare it with +the state of matters during the last four years, or have you made +that comparison just from your general knowledge?-Just from my +general knowledge. I did not make the calculation so accurately +for the previous period as for the last four years. + +6520. But you are clearly of opinion that the amount of debt before +that system was introduced was greater than it is now?-I am +clearly of that opinion. + +6521. How many of the men do you calculate are now in your debt +to that average extent?-I am not able to answer that question +exactly. + +6522. Can you not give an approximation to the number?-I am +afraid not. + +6523. How many men do you employ altogether in the ling and +cod fishing in summer?-I have no cod fishing,-only ling fishing, +in which I think I employ about 120 or 130 men. + +6524. Is that at Hillswick, or at all your stations?-At Hillswick. + +6525. But you have stations at other places?-Hillswick is the +business place, but we have fishing stations at different places-at +Roeness Voe, Hillyard, Hamnavoe, and Stenness. + +6526. Have you none at Ollaberry?-Only in winter time. We get +some fish there in winter-principally small fish, cod, and some +ling. + +6527. You said that you don't send men to the cod fishing?-No. + +6528. How do you distinguish between the cod fishing proper and +the cod which you get in winter?-There are different names for +the different kinds of fishing. The Faroe fishing is a different thing +from the home fishing. + +6529. But some people subdivide the summer fishing into more +than one kind?-There is cod fished for in the voes near the coast +during the winter, but they are generally a smaller size than the +Faroe cod. + +6530. Is that what you call the winter fishing?-Yes. + +6531. Was that what you spoke of just now when you said you did +not send men to the cod fishing?-I meant I did not send men to +the Faroe fishing. + +6532. Then by the ling fishing you mean the summer fishing?- +Yes. + +6533. And in that the men catch cod and tusk?-Very few; and +what they get are thin and of an inferior quality. + +6534. But ling is the staple fish that is caught at that time?-Yes. + +6535. Your accounts with your men are settled annually in +November or December?-Yes. + +6536. Do you find that the majority of your men have then a cash +balance to receive, or are they in arrear?-I am afraid I must +acknowledge that the majority of them are in arrear. + +6537. Do you think the system of paying at such a long interval of +time has any effect in causing the men to be so deeply in your +debt?-I don't think so. + +6538. Do you think it is their own choice or their own habits that is +the occasion of it?-I daresay there are various causes that +contribute to it. There may be some improvidence among them; +there may be afflictions among them of various kinds. There may +be men getting married, and getting families; and it is a sore time +with them when their children are small. + +6539. Have you ever considered whether a system of shorter +payments could be introduced in your business which might +encourage habits of economy and foresight, and lead the men to +keep out of debt?-I have given that point some careful +consideration. + +6540. You have already said that you introduced a [Page 159] +system of giving a premium to your men who were free of debt?- +Yes. + +6541. But has any other plan for bringing about the end occurred +to you?-I don't think there is any other. + +6542. Are you aware that the men sometimes express a wish that +they should know the price of fish earlier in the season than is the +case at present?-Yes. That has been expressed to me sometimes +by the men themselves. + +6543. Do you think that would have any beneficial effect?-I +don't think it. In the winter fishing we have paid for the fish as +soon as the men came on shore with them, but I was not aware that +they saved any of that cash in consequence of receiving it at once, +any more than they would have done if it had been put to account. + +6544. Is the winter fishing generally paid in cash?-Yes if the men +require it. + +6545. Is it more commonly paid for in cash at the time of delivery +than is the case in the other fisheries?-The men have the choice +of getting cash or goods, just as they like, for their winter fish. + +6546. I rather understand they have the choice of getting cash or +goods in the other fishings as well at any time if they like: is not +that so?-I think not. I think they would not get cash unless they +were clear men, or unless we had good cause to know that they +were really in necessity for something. + +6547. But during the course of the summer fishing are they +allowed advances in goods as they require them?-Yes. + +6548. Even though they should be to some extent in your debt?- +Yes. + +6549. If a man is clear at the end of a season, and is fishing for you +during the following season, is it usual to give him advances in +cash to account of his fishing as often as they are asked?-Yes. + +6550. Is it ever the case that a man who is in that position gets +some payents in cash throughout the season, and is paid the whole +balance in cash at the end, and has no account at your shop at +all?-I think not. I have never been aware of any case of that +kind. + +6551. Is that because the man necessarily has to apply to you for +an outfit for the fishing at the beginning of the year, such as lines +or boats; or is it because he may have an account for necessaries to +his family?-He is not obliged to get his outfit or his necessaries +from me unless he likes. There is no obligation upon him. + +6552. But, in point of fact, he generally does get an outfit from +you?-Yes; we are always glad to get them to buy an outfit from +us. + +6553. Whether he gets a boat or not, I suppose the general rule is +that he takes his outfit from you?-Yes; that is the general +practice. + +6554. Is a man expected to do that when he is engaged to fish for +you?-I certainly would expect it but he is under no obligation +whatever. + +6555. If a man were engaging with you to fish for the summer, and +getting his outfit elsewhere, say at Lerwick, would that make any +difference in the way in which you would deal with him +afterwards?-None whatever. + +6556. Would he be just as likely to get an engagement from you in +the following year, and as good a price for his fish?-Yes. + +6557. I understand you have the largest shop in this parish?-I am +scarcely able to answer that, but I suppose it is the largest in this +district. Messrs. Hay & Co., at North Roe have an extensive +business also. + +6558. Is North Roe as populous a district as Hillswick?-Yes. + +6559. Then there is the shop of Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes; that is a +larger business than mine. + +6560. And Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at Mossbank?-Yes. + +6561. Do these shops rank in size along with yours?-Yes; and +Hay & Co.'s shop at North Roe. + +6562. But there are smaller shops throughout the country not kept +by fish-curers?-Yes. Mr. Peter Robertson, Sullem, and Mr. +Gilbert Nicholson, Ollaberry, are not fish-curers. Mr. Nicholson +has been engaged in that business to, but not on his own account. + +6563. Do these shopkeepers sometimes buy fish?-I think so. I +think Mr. Nicholson buys cured fish in the winter, near the sea. + +6564. Is it a common opinion that there is a good deal of +smuggling of fish by fishermen during the fishing season?-I +believe it is. + +6565. Is that done for the purpose of getting payment in ready +money; or is the inducement for it, that they get a larger price by +disposing of their fish, in that way?-I don't think the payment of +ready money is the inducement, because for many years past it has +been my practice to send out money to the factor, with which to +pay the men for whatever fish they wanted to sell,-that is to say, +to clear any little bits of debt they had to pay at the station. + +6566. But the men that you spoke of are bound by their +engagement at the beginning of the year to deliver all their fish +to you?-That is an understood thing, I believe; but I don't think +it has ever been acted upon. + +6567. Are they at liberty to sell their fish to others?-They +generally take that liberty. + +6568. So that only those fish go into the account which are +weighed by your factor?-Yes. + +6569. Do your factors at these fishing stations pay ready money for +any large quantity of fish that is delivered to them?-I don't think +there are any large quantities paid for in ready money. I believe +the men generally give fish in that way to procure supplies. +Perhaps they might think my goods were not equal to Mr. Adie's +or those of other merchants, and they might give a few fish in that +way to these merchants in order to get money with which to clear +off their little bits of accounts there. + +6570. That is to say, a man fishing for Mr. Adie might sell a few +fish to your factor in that way, or one of your men might sell to +Mr. Adie just in the same way, in order to get a little money for his +present needs?-Yes. + +6571. Can you give me any idea from your books to what extent +that sort of ready-money payment goes on during the summer +season?-I could scarcely say. I should think that perhaps £5 or +£6 would cover the whole of that for the entire season, because +there are some of the men fishing to me who will ask the factor to +give them a pound in cash or so just at the end of the season. + +6572. Therefore they don't require to smuggle the fish so much as +one might suppose?-No. + +6573. Do you consider that the tenants on the Ollaberry estate are +obliged by the terms of their leases to fish to you only?-I do not; +although I think I have it in my power to compel them to fish if I +wished to do so. + +6574. Do you think you have that in your power by the terms of +their leases?-I think there is only man who has a lease at present. + +6575. Or by the terms of the contract under which they sit on the +land?-I think that is understood. + +6576. That is a part of their bargain?-It is not part of their +bargain, but I think it is understood. + +6577. When a man is in your debt in the way you have spoken of, +do you think he has a stronger inducement to deal at your shop +for the goods he requires, and to agree to fish for you during the +following season, than another man who is not in debt?-I am not +very sure about that. + +6578. I suppose you would consider it fair that man who is in your +debt should deliver his fish to you rather than to another, in order +that he might pay off your debt?-Certainly. + +6579. And also that he should take his supplies from your shop, so +far as necessary?-Yes, I would expect that. + +6580. Is it also the feeling among the men generally, that they are +inclined to deal with a person who has advanced them money or +goods in a bad season? [Page 160]-I think they would have no +objection to deal in that way. + +6581. You I would probably have rather to keep them within limits +in their dealing, for fear they should get too much?-Yes, I think +that is quite right. + +6582. Perhaps they have no credit elsewhere?-I daresay they +might have credit elsewhere too. Probably they might have other +things, such as produce of different kinds from their farms with +which to clear off their small accounts in other quarters, and which +might not come my way. + +6583. Do you not deal considerably in farm produce yourself?- +Yes; in cattle and other things. + +6584. Do you send them south?-Yes. + +6585. Do you purchase these generally for cash, or do your +purchases in that way enter the accounts of the men who fish +for you?-That just depends on the way the men want them. I +make a practice of purchasing all stock for cash; but if they +wanted it entered in their accounts, I do so. + +6586. Are these purchases generally made at periodical sales?- +Yes, we have two sales in the year at Ollaberry; but I purchase a +good many cattle and horses just at any place where I can get them +through the parish. + +6587. Suppose you made purchases of that kind from a man who +owed you a certain amount in your books, would these purchases +enter your books to his credit, or would they be paid in cash?- +That will depend upon our bargain. If a man said to me, I have a +cow to sell, and one part of the price I want to go to pay my rent, +and the other part I want put into my account, I would do that for +him. I have done that frequently, although the man was in my +debt. + +6588. You said there were 120 fishermen in your books at +Hillswick?-That was a mere random guess; I could not speak +to it positively. + +6589. Have you a number of men in your books at other places?- +Yes, at Ollaberry; but that shop is under a different firm Anderson +& Co. + +6590. Is that shop kept by Mr. Irvine?-Yes. + +6591. Do you take the principal oversight of the business there?-I +do. + +6592. Then, when you spoke of the fishermen on the Ollaberry +estate being obliged to fish to you, I suppose you meant that they +were bound to fish for that firm?-Yes. + +6593. Is there any other station besides Ollaberry where you have a +shop and fishermen upon your books?-No other station, except +the fishing stations I have already mentioned. + +6594. These are not permanent establishments, but are only kept +up for the summer season?-There is a man who takes winter fish +at Stenness and at Hamnavoe. + +6595. But there are not so many men residing there?-No. + +6596. And it is only from those who reside on the spot there that +you receive fish in winter?-Yes. + +6597. How many men may be engaged in the fishing at the +Ollaberry station, and who are entered in your books as employed +by you?-Probably between 50 and 60. + +6598. Then you may have about 300 fishermen the summer +fishing, including the other stations you have mentioned?-I +think scarcely so many. + +6599. One of the books which you have produced here is a +woman's book?-Yes. + +6600. That has relation to hosiery and kelp?-Yes. + +6601. You have not brought any books relating to the fishing +business, but I suppose you will be ready to show them if you +are asked?-Certainly. + +6602. In what way do you engage your beach boys?-Some of +them are engaged about December, but perhaps it is the spring +before we get them all. We engage them for an annual fee,-that +is to say, a fee for three months in summer, or for summer and +harvest. The rates we pay them vary from about 45s. to £10 for +time summer and harvest. + +6603. Do those to whom you pay £10 have charge of the curing?- +Yes; I have given the whole range. + +6604. There are two classes of them-the beach-boys proper, and +the men who are skilled at the work?-Yes; and the man who has +charge of the curing. + +6605. Are both those classes settled with at the end of the year?- +Yes. + +6606. Do the men employed in the curing get payment before the +end of the year?-No. + +6607. I believe at some establishments the men employed are paid +by weekly wages?-I am not aware of that. + +6608. Do you open an account with them in the same way as with +the other people employed by you?-Yes. + +6609. And if they want supplies they get them at your shop?-Yes. + +6610. Do you find that the amount of debt upon these accounts +is greater or less than in the case of ordinary fishermen?-We +generally strive not to allow them to get into debt. + +6611. I don't mean the amount of debt above their salary, but the +amount of debt they incur for furnishings in the course of the year: +is that greater or less than the amount due to them for their fee?-I +think it is generally less, taking the whole cases together. There +may be some cases where they fall behind little, but there are +others again who have money to get. + +6612. Have they generally a considerable balance to receive in +money at the end of the year?-No; when boy has paid for his +clothes and provisions, he will not have very much to receive. + +6613. Does a beach boy generally require an outfit of clothing at +the beginning?-Yes. + +6614. Is it the sons of your fishermen whom you generally employ +as beach boys?-Very often, but not necessarily; I just engage any +one I can get. + +6615. Is there a sufficient supply of them?-There has always +been hitherto. + +6616. When a boy who is engaged for the first year gets more +goods than the amount of his fee, does he usually engage to work +for you in the same employment next year?-No. + +6617. You are aware, I suppose that that has been alleged as the +commencement of the system of debt which is said to prevail in +Shetland?-I am perfectly aware of that. + +6618. Is it not consistent with your experience that a boy who +overdraws his account in that way continues to serve you as a +beach boy?-I am sorry to say it is not, because sometimes he +goes elsewhere and leaves a balance standing. + +6619. Is that a frequent thing?-I cannot say it is a very frequent +thing. I am glad to say that a great amount of honesty prevails +among the people generally. + +6620. But is it not quite possible that he might go elsewhere and +pay his account to you from the wages he receives elsewhere?-It +is quite possible. + +6621. Does that ever happen?-I think it has happened with me. + +6622. Is a boy free to do that if he chooses?-Perfectly free. + +6623. But, in point of fact, do the majority of boys who are so +engaged, and who overdraw their accounts during the first year, +remain in your service and work on until their account is paid +up?-I could scarcely say that that is so with the majority. + +6624. But many of them do?-Many of them do, I think. + +6625. Do they generally get further into your books, or do they +very often clear off their debt as they grow older and get larger +wages?-I think they often clear off their debt. + +6626. Is it boy at the commencement likely, from his +circumstances, to incur a larger debt in the first year than +after a year or two, in proportion to his earnings?-I think not. +It depends, however, a great deal upon the parents. If a boy has +poor parents, who cannot afford to give him much clothing the +first year, to keep him warm, he must get these things from me +and perhaps he may fall behind, and yet be a very honest boy. + +[Page 161] + +6627. But what I was pointing at is this, that a boy may require +some outfit at the beginning of his career, and that he would +probably incur some debt?-That is true in some cases, but not in +all. A boy has been at the beach, and then he goes to the haaf; +perhaps the first year or two he will require to fall a little behind; +but if he is an honest, provident lad, he will soon clear off that. + +6628. I understand you are a purchaser of kelp to some extent?- +Yes. + +6629. Have you heard the evidence that has been given to-day on +that subject?-Yes. + +6630. Was that evidence correct with regard to the manner in +which the kelp is paid for; or do you wish to make any correction +or addition to it?-It was perfectly correct, so far as the prices go. +4s. is the cash price, and 4s. 6d. is the goods price which we pay +for it. + +6631. You pay for it either in cash or goods?-Yes. + +6632. In which way do you make the greater part of your payments +for kelp?-I should think the greater part would be in goods + +6633. Is that because you allow a higher price in goods, and the +people prefer taking that higher price?-Certainly. I have no +doubt they prefer it; otherwise they would not take it in that way + +6634 I suppose if they got it in cash, they could not spend it very +easily anywhere else than in your own store?-There are various +shops round about where they could go to. + +6635. Has that difference in the price of kelp been of long +continuance?-I think there has not been very much difference +on it for several years. + +6636 But has it been long the practice to give an advanced price if +payment is taken in goods?-Yes; that has always been the case +during my experience. There have always been two prices, at least +at Hillswick. + +6637. Have you any lease of the kelp shores?-Yes; all round from +Roeness Voe to Mavisgrind, on the Busta estate. + +6638 Do you generally employ women, or allow any women to +gather kelp and burn it?-Yes; sometimes men do it also. + +6639. But they are not at liberty to gather it for any one except +yourself?-No; that is quite understood. + +6640. Have you to pay a lordship to the landlord for the kelp?- +Yes; 15s. per ton. + +6641. You do something in the hosiery business also, and you have +brought your women's book to show how that business is +conducted?-Yes. + +6642. Is the hosiery always paid in goods?-Not always. + +6643. Have you any idea what amount is usually paid in cash?- +There is very little cash paid. Our general practice is, not to pay +cash for hosiery, but to give goods only. + +6644. Is that because you consider you have a very small profit on +the hosiery?-Yes. + +6645. What percentage do you calculate you have upon it?-I am +afraid my experience has been, that I have never had any profit +upon it. I have a profit on the goods, but not on the hosiery. + +6646. Do you sell your hosiery generally to firms in Edinburgh or +Glasgow?-In London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or any place where +we can get it sold. + +6647. But you sell it direct to retail houses in these places, and not +through Lerwick merchants?-Yes. + +6648. Do you employ women to knit for you, and give out wool to +them?-No. + +6649. Yours is exclusively a purchase business?-Yes. + +6650. Do you make a bargain for the article, whatever it may be, +on the understanding that the woman is to take goods for it?-Yes, +that is the understanding; but still I have paid cash in a good many +cases. + +6651. If you want a very fine article for any particular purpose, do +you then sometimes agree to pay in cash?-Yes; if they wanted +cash for that, we would give it. + +6652. Would you give a lower rate in cash than in goods?-Yes. + +6653. What difference might there be?-I cannot tell. + +6654. Will it be 2s. or 3s. in the pound?-I should think so. + +6655. Are you often asked to give cash for hosiery?-No. + +6656. Do the people who bring it generally want goods?-Yes, +they want goods; but the practice may arise too from their knowing +that the understanding is, that they only get goods for the hosiery. + +6657. In the case of a woman not wanting the goods at the time, is +the article she brings entered to her account, or how is it dealt +with?-It is entered to her account. + +6658. She has a ledger account of her own in your books?-Yes. + +6659. Or a pass-book?-Yes; many of them have pass-books. + +6660. When a young woman begins to knit in that way, and to deal +with you, does her account generally run on for a succession of +years?-Yes, very often. + +6661. Is it in what you call the women's book that these accounts +are entered?-Yes. + +6662. The goods supplied to them, I presume, are mostly soft +goods?-Yes; soft goods and groceries. + +6663. Do you give the same value in groceries hosiery as in soft +goods?-No; not the same value. + +6664. Is it part of the bargain at the beginning, whether the +payment is to be taken in groceries or in soft goods?-There is +no agreement of that sort. + +6665. If a woman asks for groceries, what do you do?-We just +give them to her. + +6666. But you say you don't give the same value in groceries as in +soft goods?-Not exactly the same value. + +6667. Do you mean that when she gets groceries, you give them to +her at a higher price?-Yes. + +6668. You add something to the price for which you would sell +them to a cash customer?-Yes. + +6669. Or to a fisherman who keeps an account?-Yes. + +6670. A fisherman keeping an account would get his groceries at a +different price from a seller of hosiery?-Yes. + +6671. Do you not think that a cash system for all these matters +would be simpler and more convenient for all parties +concerned?-I don't see that there would be any gain to the +purchaser. Suppose a woman came in with hosiery of the value +of 5s. and got cash for it, she would require to go either to my +shop or to some other shop with it for her goods. + +6672. But if she had cash, she might purchase her goods in +Lerwick or in Edinburgh, or possibly, if the trade were not in so +few hands, there might be a greater competition?-There might. + +6673. And she could lay out her cash in the way that was most to +her own advantage?-That might be so; but then I would not give +her so much in cash for her hosiery, so that I don't see where her +gain would be. + +6674. Is it mostly in provisions or in goods that the hosiery is +paid?-I should say that it is mostly in goods. + +6675. Is the account which a woman, knitting in that way, runs up +entirely distinct from the account kept by her parents?-Quite +distinct. + +6676. If she is living in family with her father, is he considered +responsible for her debt if the balance is against her?-No. + +6677. Have you known any case of such a debt being enforced +against the father?-I am not aware of any, and I don't think it +could be enforced against him. + +6678. Or demanded from him?-I don't think it could be +demanded either, legally. But the necessity does not exist for +girls buying groceries. These are generally bought by the father +or brothers; and the girl is left free to have her knitting to clothe +herself with. It is all the wages she gets. + +6679. Show me the way in which the women's book is kept?- +[Produces women's book] + +[Page 162] + +6680. Each woman has her name entered there, and on one side of +the account are entered the articles which she gets?-Yes. + +6681. I see that some women make home-spun tweed?-Yes + +6682. Do you purchase a quantity of that also?-Yes. + +6683. Is it also paid for in goods?-No; it is paid for in cash if +required. + +6684. But at a cash price?-Yes. + +6685. In this case [showing] it was entered in the book?-Yes. + +6686. Was that because the party wanted goods, or was there any +particular reason for it?-She was not sure when she gave the +tweed, whether she might require the whole of it in goods. She +wanted meal, I think, and some other goods. + +6687. Are your dealings in cloth with the people the country very +extensive?-I buy a good deal of it occasionally, when the trade is +brisk. + +6688. Is it paid for regularly in cash?-Yes. + +6689. Do your purchases of it not appear in this book?-There +may be some of them there. + +6690. But are the majority of your purchases of that sort of cloth +entered here?-Possibly they may appear in the men's ledger more +frequently, unless when the cloth is bought over the counter. + +6691. If it is paid for in cash, why does it appear in any ledger?- +What is paid for cash does not appear in any ledger. + +6692. Does it not appear in your day-book?-No, it does not enter +our day-book. We just buy it the same as we buy any hosiery. For +instance, if a girl brings it in, she may require the value of it in +goods; that is a separate transaction, finished at once, and there is +no more trace of it. + +6693. Is the cloth almost all of the same quality?-It is all very +much the same. + +6694. Do you ticket each web at the time when you take it in?- +Yes. + +6695. Then I understand you to say, that the great bulk of your +dealings in cloth are cash transactions?-Yes, I think the bulk of +them, or they are settled for at the time in goods. + +6696. Is tea a very usual article for the knitters to take out their +payments in?-I think it is. They often take tea. + +6697. Have you known any cases in which the goods or tea so +obtained for hosiery were sold or disposed of for cash?-I think I +have not. + +6698. It is probably not so necessary for them to do so when they +can get provisions for their hosiery, as when they are only paid in +soft goods?-Perhaps not; but it is not very likely I would learn +that that was done, even if it was the case. + +6699. When a woman has sold you some hosiery goods or cloth, +and does not want goods in exchange to the full value at the time, +is it the practice in your shop to issue any line or acknowledgment +for the balance?-I believe that is done occasionally. + +6700. Is the line in the form of an order to credit the bearer with so +much in goods?-Yes. + +6701. Are these lines or vouchers generally brought back by the +party to whom they were given?-I think so. + +6702. Are they ever brought back by another?-I think not; +because we know all the people, and they could not impose on +us in that way. + +6703. But if the party to whom the line was issued had handed +it over for a consideration to another party, that would be no +imposition upon you?-No; but still we would know whether it +was done or not, that is to say, we would suspect something amiss. +If it was presented by another person than one of the woman's own +family, we would naturally suppose there was something +suspicious about it. + +6704. Do these lines bear to be payable to any particular person?- +Yes; we always mention in them the name of the person who has +sold us the goods. However, it is perhaps right to state that that is +not very much practised in our shop. + +6705. I think you said there were not many little shops in this +district?-There are a few. Arthur Harrison has a shop within two +miles of me; Laurence Smith has a shop within three miles; and +Jack Anderson has a shop within five miles to the westward. + +6706. Are all these on the Busta estate?-Yes. Jack Anderson +rents a booth belonging to Ollaberry. + +6707. Is there any difficulty or any obstruction placed in the way +of small shopkeepers getting premises and carrying on their +business in this district?-There seems not to have been any lately. +When I took a lease of Hillswick, I thought I had an understanding +that Mr. Cheyne was not to put up other places of business in the +district, but there was no sort of agreement about it and that +understanding has not been acted upon. + +6708. Do you refer to shops or fish-curing establishments?-Not +fish-curing establishments; there is no restriction upon them. + +6709. Any person may set up a business of that sort?-I think so. + +6710. You have been present and heard the whole of the evidence +that has been given to-day: is there any part of it with regard to +which you wish to make any statement or contradiction?-There is +nothing that I am aware of. + +6711. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-I +am. + +6712. Do most of your fishermen subscribe to that society?-A +good many of them do. + +6713. Is their annual subscription debited to them in their +account?-Yes, very frequently. + +6714. When they have anything to get from the society, how is that +payment settled with them?-That I daresay depends very much +upon their own wishes. + +6715. Does it depend to any extent on the fact, whether or not they +are indebted to you at the time?-I don't think it does generally. + +6716. But it may sometimes?-It may sometimes. + +6717. That is to say, supposing a man who loses his boat has a sum +to receive in cash from the society, which passes through your +hands, it may be written down to square off your account?-No. It +may be entered to his credit in the account; but I think, if the +matter was searched into, it would be found that in that case it was +to square off for some boat he had got before, and which he had +not paid for. + +6718. And not his ordinary shop account?-No. + +6719. Therefore, you say that you would retain the money if he +was in debt to you for a boat?-Yes. + +6720. But you would not retain it if he was only in debt to you for +shop goods?-I think not. + +6721. What is your reason for making that distinction?-I think it +is nothing but simple justice to myself. It would certainly be very +unreasonable for a man to get remuneration for a boat from the +Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society while the same boat was +standing unpaid for in my books. + +6722. Would the same principle not apply to the case of an +account which a man owed to you?-No doubt the man would be +entitled to pay me that account; but I would certainly consider it a +great hardship if I had to pay that money over to a man who had an +account standing due in my books for the very boat for the loss of +which the money was given. + +6723. Have you ever had any dispute with the fishermen about the +payment of that money, or any complaints that it was not settled +for in cash?-I don't think I have, within my recollection. I think +there was one man who said something about it at one time; but +after I had showed to him what I considered to be the justice of the +matter, I fancied he was satisfied, and never heard any more about +it. + +6724. What is the other book you have brought with you?-It is a +boat-book, merely for entries relating to the boats. + +6725. How are the boat-builders paid? Do they run accounts with +you in the same way as the fishermen?-I think so. + +6726. Are they paid by weekly wages?-No; they are paid so +much for building a boat. + +6727. What does their contract generally amount to?-We furnish +the wood, and merely pay them for [Page 163] their work. I think +we generally pay £3 for the work on a six-oared boat. + +6728. When you enter into a contract for the building of a boat, +does the man open an account, or is it generally the case that he +has an account already running?-The builder I employ generally +has an account running. + +6729. Are his family and himself supplied with goods from your +shop from time to time?-Only occasionally. I think the boats are +paid for mostly in cash. Probably he would get a few pounds from +me if he was requiring them, and then he would come and build +boats for me afterwards. + +6730. Are the boat-builders a class of men by themselves, who +work at nothing else?-Yes. + +6731. Do they travel about the country?-Yes. + +6732. Are they not employed by you all the year round?-No. + +6733. Then, they generally get an advance of money from you +before they begin work for you?-I don't say generally, but I say +the particular builder I employ has done that sometimes. + +6734. So that, when his boat is finished, he has generally nothing +to get?-No; he has something to get still, because he is building +more than one at a time. + +6735. But during the time he is building them, he has an account at +your shop for necessaries to his family?-Yes. + +6736. What is the other book you have there?-It is a ledger for +the purpose of entering anything into-goods supplied to a family. + +6737. Are these the families of your fishermen?-Yes; or it may +be others that we intend to have short accounts. + +6738. But these accounts are only for goods supplied: there is +nothing entered that is due to them?-No. + +6739. The other side of the account is not in this book at all?-No. + +6740. And the fishermen's ledger is quite different?-Yes. + +6741. It is a large book?-Yes. + +6742. Is there a separate ledger for beach boys and men employed +in fish-curing?-Yes. + +6743. Is there also a separate ledger for the kelp women?-No; +their accounts are entered in the women's book unless they are +paid right off. + +6744. Show me the account of one of these kelp women in the +women's book: take Mrs. Hughson?-I don't think she ever had +anything to get, and therefore we would not enter her name in the +book. + +6745. Take Maria Sandison, who was spoken of today?-I think +her account was kept on a slip of paper or in a small book, until +they got it squared off, and then it was entered. + +6746. I see there is nothing about kelp in her account?-No, I +fancy it was just paid off at the time. + +6747. Is there anything else you wish to say?-It has been asserted +that the fish-curers paid no cash, and that scarcely a coin passed +between the curer and the fisherman. That was said before the +Truck Commissioners in Edinburgh. Now, I would wish to show +what amount of cash I have paid since I began to settle this year. I +think the cash I paid during the settling time in November and +December last amounted to £1006. + +6748. What was it in previous years?-I cannot tell for every year; +but I know that for the whole year, in 1866, I paid £1811 in cash, +and in 1870 I paid £2040. I think the highest I paid to one man +this season was £24, 7s. 9d. in cash at settlement. + +6749. Was that much higher than the average?-It must have been +higher. Perhaps I may be allowed to say also, that I think the great +bar to improvement in Shetland is the want of leases. In my +opinion, a Land Bill for Shetland-an Act somewhat resembling +the Irish Land Bill-would be very useful, by which all +improvements could be held to belong to the tenant instead of to +the proprietor; because as soon as a tenant here begins to improve +his farm, he is very likely to have his rent raised upon him. + +6750. Have you known cases in which the rent has been raised +upon an improving tenant?-Yes. I am not prepared just now to +give names, but I think I have met with several cases of that kind. + +6751. What is the bar to the introduction of a system of leases in +Shetland, which, you say, would greatly improve the country?- +There seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the proprietors +to give lease. I have known several parties who have asked for +leases and have not got them. + +6752. Has the unwillingness of the proprietors to give leases +anything to do with the fishing?-I don't think it. + +6753. On some properties are not yearly tenants under an +obligation to fish, which might be interfered with, or which might +not be so easily enforceable, there were leases?-That shows the +necessity granting leases. + +6754. But is not the objection of proprietors to grant leases due to +some extent to the fact, that it would be less easy to enforce the +obligation to fish if leases existed?-Perhaps it is, but even on +those estates where there is no such obligation leases are not +granted. + +6755. Is there a general desire on the part of fishermen-farmers in +Shetland to have leases?-I cannot say that exactly. I think there +is such desire in many cases, but then they fear that their rent +would be raised if a lease were granted. + +6756. Have there been any cases of leases being granted or offered +in which ground has been given for that apprehension?-I think +so, although I could not name them just now. + +6757. Have there been any attempts made recently in Shetland to +introduce leases on a larger scale than they at present exist?- +Not within my knowledge. With regard to the Ollaberry property, +I find there are only 33 out of 71 tenants who fish either to +Anderson & Co. or to me. + +6758. Are you aware whether the other 38 tenants fish at all?- +There are some of them who do not fish, but there are others of +them who do, and who are ling fishers. The man Blance who was +examined goes to Faroe and I think another man too. + +6759. Do many of them go to Faroe?-No; not many. + +6760. They are not obliged to engage with any particular person at +the Faroe fishing?-No. + +6761. In the evidence to which you have referred as having been +given in Edinburgh, there is a statement that leases were offered +on a large estate in Delting or in Yell, but that the bulk of the +tenants would not accept of them: do you know the reason of +that?-Because, I suspect, they were suspicious of the factor. + +6762. The statement was, 'Ten years was mentioned as the +minimum length of the lease, because the people were frightened +to take leases; but when any one came and asked for a longer +lease, I gave it to him. No one would take a longer lease than +fourteen years, and I have given none longer than fourteen.' Can +you suggest any other reason than that you have named for the +tenants declining leases on these estates?-I think it must have +been because under the leases, all improvements were to be held +to belong to the landlord. + +6763. But they belong to the landlord at present?-True; but what +I mean is, that that is the great bar to improvements in Shetland. + +6764. Do you think it is possible for a man to improve his land +much who is employed for four or five months in the year +fishing?-I think it is. His time in winter is almost thrown away +at present; but if he had the security of getting the value of his +labour at the end of his lease or on removing, I think he would +work actively and improve his land. There are many, I know, who +have regretted that they could not spend their time in that way. + +6765. Is it not possible for a tenant who wants to improve his land +to make some contract with his landlord on the subject?-I have +never been aware of any case where that has been done. + +6766. Have you the management of the Ollaberry estate in your +own hands?-Yes. + +6767. Have you made any effort to induce the people [Page +164] there to take leases, or offered them compensation for +improvements?-I have not offered them compensation. I could +not do that; but I have told them that the understanding on which +they held their lands was this-that if they made improvements, +either in cultivating the land, keeping up their fences, or repairing +their houses, their rents would not be raised during my lease. + +6768. You have only a lease of Ollaberry?-Yes, for nineteen +years. + +6769. Has your intimation to the tenants, that their rents would not +be raised if they improved their holdings, had a beneficial +effect?-I think it has in some cases; that is to say, they have kept +up their fences very well, and I know some parties who have added +to their cultivated ground. + +6770. Do you think that has been done to a greater extent than +would have been the case if you had held out no such inducement +to them?-I would fancy so. + +6771. Is there any other suggestion or statement you wish to +make?-I think not. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, PETER PETERSON, +examined. + +6772. Are you a fisherman at Hillswick?-Not present. I am at +Hillyar now. I live at Hillswick, but I am not fishing there. + +6773. Have you got any land?-Yes; a small piece in Hillswick +from Mr. Gifford. + +6774. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Laurence Smith at Hillyar +at present. + +6775. Is he a large curer?-No; he has only two boats fishing for +him. I have been fishing for him two years now. + +6776. For whom did you fish before?-For Mr. Anderson. + +6777. Why did you leave off fishing for him?-I got into debt, and +was refused supplies from him; and, as I could not do without +supplies for my family, I went to another man. + +6778. Why would you not pay your debt to Mr. Anderson?-I did +not make a sufficient fishing to pay it, and I had no great means to +work on either: I had no boat. + +6779. What was the amount of your debt?-£17, 9s. 5d. + +6780. And when it came to that amount, he refused you +supplies?-Yes. + +6781. At what time of the year was that?-In the summer time, +during the fishing season. + +6782. Did you settle with him at the end of that season?-Yes. + +6783. Did you clear off what was due by you at that settlement, or +was there still something due to Mr. Anderson?-£17, 9s. 5d. was +the debt I left when I went away from him. I continued to fish the +season out, and left him when the season was done. + +6784. But you made a settlement at the end of the season?-Yes. + +6785. What was the result of that settlement?-He made out that I +was due him £17, 9s. 5d, and he summoned me for it. + +6786. Did you ask him how much was due at the time when he +stopped the supplies?-No. + +6787. Then, the sum you have mentioned was due after he had +allowed you credit for all the fish of that season?-Yes. + +6788. So that, at the time when he stopped the supplies, there +would be a larger sum than that due by you?-There may have +been. + +6789. Were you asked to engage to fish to him after that?-No. + +6790. What was his reason for summoning you?-I don't know. I +was not asked to fish to him again, so that I had to look out for +myself some other way, and I went to Smith and got supplies from +him. + +6791. Was there a decree against you in the action in which Mr +Anderson summoned you?-No, I have not got any yet. + +6792. Was the case not decided against you?-I don't think it. At +least I left it unsettled in the hands of Mr. Spence, the lawyer, +when I left the town. + +6793. Is the case not at an end yet?-I don't know. Mr. Spence +was to give me notice but I have got none yet. + +6794. What was the nature of your defence in that case?-I was +not able to pay, and therefore I was forced to appear in Lerwick +before the court. Very likely, if I had been in a good boat the last +season I fished for him, I would have done somewhat better. + +6795. But was the debt really due for which you were +summoned?-I did not have any pass-book, and got no copy +of my account, so that I could not say whether it was due or not. + +6796. Did you ever ask for a pass-book?-I have asked for copies +of my account. + +6797. Did you get them?-At one time I got a copy of my account +for nine years. + +6798. Had your debt been running on increasing for nine years?- +It was always increasing. + +6799. Have you got these accounts here, or are they in your +lawyer's hands?-They are in Mr. Spence's hands in Lerwick. + +6800. How often did you ask for them before you got the accounts +for the nine years?-I asked for them when I was summoned. + +6801. Had you ever asked for them before?-Yes; I had asked for +them sometimes, but not every year. + +6802. Did you always get them when you asked for them?-No; I +got none until I got the whole at one time. + +6803. Why did you not get them when you asked for them?-I +don't know; I never was refused them, but I did not get them. + +6804. Were you just put off?-Yes. + +6805. Did you fish for Mr. Anderson all the time these accounts +were running up?-Yes. The commencement of the debt was +when I lost a fleet of lines by bad weather. There might have been +a little due before that, but it was very little. + +6806. How much do you call a fleet of lines?-Just what the boat +carries. A boat takes 108 lines, and we lost them all except +eighteen. The weather prevented us from taking any more in. + +6807. Were these lines hired from Mr. Anderson?-Yes. + +6808. Are the fishermen always liable for hired lines which they +lose?-Yes. If they lose lines which they have hired, they have to +pay for them. + +6809. What is the value of these lines?-The price is about 2s. 8d. +per line for new lines when they are ready for sea. + +6810. Then a fleet of 108 lines would cost about £8 or £10?-I +never give any consideration to what the cost of them might be. +There were some of them old and some of them new; but I think +2s. 8d. was about the price for new lines about that time. The +price varies at different times. + +6811. Is not each man of the boat's crew liable for his share of the +lines?-Yes. If there are five men in a boat, then the lines belong +to these men, and they have each to pay their share of the hire for +the season. + +6812. In that way, you would be liable only for one-fifth of the +value of the lines?-Yes; only for one-fifth that year. + +6813. And that was the beginning of your debt?-Yes; but it was +always going on, as I had a small family, and they were needing +bread. Then interest was charged, and such as that. + +6814. Was there any interest charged upon that account?-Yes. + +6815. Are you sure of that?-Yes. It is marked down in the copies +that I got. + +6816. Did you ever know any man who got the whole of his +accounts for nine years at once except yourself?-No. + +6817. Did you ever know a man who asked for them?-No. + +[Page 165] + +6818. Did you ever know a man who was nine years in debt to a +fish-merchant, with the debt always increasing, except yourself?- +I could not positively say. I could not pick out any particular man; +but very likely there are some who have been in the same position. + +6819. During the time your debt was increasing, did you continue +to fish every year for Mr. Anderson?-I was fishing for him the +whole time. + +6820. Did you, during that time, sell any of your fish to other +merchants?-I did. The last year I was fishing for him I sold +some fish to others, in order to keep my family alive. + +6821. Who did you sell them to that year?-To Mr. Adie's factor. + +6822. Was that what you call smuggling fish?-Yes. It was +necessity that made me do it, in order to save my family. + +6823. Was any objection made to your selling them?-No. I +told that in court the same as I am telling it to you, and there was +nothing said to me for doing it. I was obliged to do it. + +6824. Was it not quite a fair thing for Mr. Anderson to do to +summon you for the debt you were due him?-He did summon +me for it; and when I asked him how it was to be paid, he wanted +me either to pay it down at once or get cautioners for it, but I +could not do either of these things. I perhaps I might have got a +cautioner, but the money I did not have. + +6825. Is it usual for a fisherman to get a cautioner when he is a +little in debt?-I don't know; some of them have got one. + +6826. But if the man continues to fish for the merchant to whom +the debt is due, is he required to get a cautioner?-No. It is only +when he goes away from the merchant that he is asked for a +cautioner. + +6827. Were you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Anderson, or for +any one else, during these nine years?-I suppose I was, from the +way I was in debt to him; but, instead of getting out of debt, the +debt always increased. + +6828. Whose fault was that?-I don't know. It was not my fault. +As I have said, the last season I fished for Mr. Anderson I did not +have a boat fit to go to sea with; but very likely, if I had had a good +boat that season, as it was a good year's fishing, I might have got +the debt somewhat reduced. Therefore it was not my fault. I got a +boat from him, but ought to have got one that was fit to go to sea. + +6829. Had you not your choice of boat?-I had no choice of a boat +for that season. + +6830. Where do you get the supplies for your family now?-From +Laurence Smith, the man I fish to. + +6831. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes; I have settled with +him two years now. + +6832. Had you something to get in cash last year?-Yes. The first +year I fished for Laurence Smith I had 28s. to get, after paying for +the things I had got from him during the season. This year, when I +settled with him, I was clear. I had nothing to get, or very little. + +6833. Were these two good fishing years?-They were very good; +but the fishing is not the same with all the boats. They are not +always equal in the same year. + +6834. What was the price of meal at these two stores you have +been dealing with?-It is just up and down, according to the +market-less in one year than another. I think that last year it was +about 21s. per boll in Mr. Smith's store. + +6835. Are you told the price at the time you buy the meal?-Yes. + +6836. Is the quality of the meal you get there as good as at Mr. +Anderson's?-Yes, it is equally good. Meal and flour are just the +same at the one place as at the other. + +6837. Could you get better meal or flour anywhere else?-I don't +know. We would, no doubt, get a different quality in Lerwick, if +we were dealing there. + +6838. Have you tried it there?-No. + +6839. Are you obliged to take your provisions from the shop of the +merchant you fish for?-I don't know about that. I have asked Mr. +Smith at different times for a few shillings until the end of the +twelvemonth. + +6840. Have you got it?-Yes; I got it, but I never asked for any +money to buy meal with, because he brought up stores there to +supply his customers. + +6842. But is it understood among the fishermen here that they +ought to take their stores, or part of them, both provisions and +clothing, from the merchant to whom they sell their fish?-That is +generally the way in which they take there. + +6842. Are they generally obliged to do that?-No; I don't think +they are obliged to do it. + +6843. Can they get cash from the merchants with which to buy +their goods in other places?-I don't know. If the merchant has +meal and other things which they are requiring, and can sell them +as cheap and as good as they can get them at any other place then, +of course, they don't need to ask money from him. + +6844. But they generally do get their provisions from the +merchant's shop, and nowhere else?-Yes. + +6845. Did you ever ask for cash with which to go and buy your +provisions from another store?-No; but I got an allowance from +Mr. Smith with which to go to Mr. Anderson's factor if he (Mr. +Smith) did not have the things I wanted. + +6846. When was that?-I got it in both years when was fishing for +Mr. Smith. + +6847. Was that a general allowance or was it given to you on some +particular occasion, when you wanted something?-If there was +anything I required for the fishing, which Mr. Smith did not have, +then I got leave from him to sell fish to another merchant, so that I +might buy it, or I got cash from him with which to buy it from +another. + +6848. That, I suppose, was when you wanted any kind of clothing +which he did not keep?-Yes; or a bit of meat, or butter or meal, if +he did not have it. Then he gave us money to buy it with from Mr. +Anderson's, or allowed us to go and sell fish to Mr. Anderson and +to purchase it. + +6849. Did you often do that?-Not often. + +6850. Your daughter was examined to-day?-Yes. + +6851. She works at the kelp?-Yes, a little. She is young yet, and +has not done much to it. + +6852. She also knits a little?-Yes. The most she has knitted has +been for people belonging to the family, stockings and other things +that we were requiring for ourselves. + +6853. She also sells your eggs?-Yes. + +6854. When she sells these things, are they paid for in money or in +goods?-We are generally requiring some stores for the house: +soap or soda, or a little tea or sugar; and they are got in that way. + +6855. Does she always sell her hosiery for goods?-Yes; I suppose +she never asked anything else for it. + +6856. Do you sell the eggs yourself, or are they usually sold by +your daughter?-They are generally sold by her. + +6857. Has she a book of her own in which they are entered?-She +has no book. They are generally paid for at once. + +6858. How are you paid for your winter fishing?-We were +generally paid for every haul as we brought it ashore, but we +cannot do that now. We have to salt our fish ourselves in the +winter fishing; and when we have got as many as two or three +cwt. we send them over to Mr. Laurenson, and sell them to him. + +6859. Then you are paid for them on account now?-Yes; we +cannot settle for them now every time we come ashore. We salt +so much, and sell it off, and then we begin to salt again; but +before, when we sold our fish green, we settled for every haul of +fish as they came ashore. + +6860. Did you do that with Mr. Anderson too?-Yes, as long as I +fished to him. + +6861. Did you get cash for that?-No; I cannot say that I ever got +cash. + +6862. Did you ask for it?-Yes; we asked for cash [Page 166] +several times, but we only got a small line, saying we had +delivered so many fish. + +6863. Have you got any of these lines this year?-No. + +6864. What did you do with these lines?-When we came back +with the line, we got anything we required for it. + +6865. Did the line name any particular sum of money?-Yes. +The haul was divided between four men, and every man got his +haul marked down on a separate line, with his name on it. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ANDREW ANDERSON, +examined. + +6866. Are you a fisherman at Hillyar?-I am. + +6867. Do you live there?-Yes. + +6868. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for +the last two years. + +6869. Who did you fish for before?-I fished for different men, for +Mr. Inkster, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Williamson, and now for Mr. +Smith. + +6870. Who did you fish for last before Mr. Smith?-For Gideon +Williamson, or James Williamson, his uncle. + +6871. Is your fishing paid for every year in the winter?-Yes. + +6872. Do you generally get a payment in cash at settlement?-I +have been a poor man, and very unfortunate, and I never had much +cash to get; but sometimes I did get some, and sometimes not. + +6873. What was the reason why you did not get it?-A poor man +sometimes did not have it to get. + +6874. Were you generally in debt to the merchants?-Sometimes I +was a good deal in their debt and sometimes not, just as the season +turned out. In some years I cleared off all my debt, and in other +years I was a good bit behind. + +6875. How long have you been in debt?-I have been in debt now +for a good while, I cannot tell for how many years; and when I +could not pay my debt, then I could not get my supplies, and that +was what made me shift from man to man. + +6876. Have you shifted often for that reason?-I have shifted +twice because I was in debt. + +6877. When did you shift first because you were in debt?-I +cannot tell how long it is ago. + +6878. Who did you shift from then?-From Mr. Anderson to Mr. +Williamson. + +6879. You were in debt to Mr. Anderson at that time?-Yes. + +6880. And you could get no more supplies?-I could not get the +supply that I asked for, and for that cause I left. + +6881. When your supplies were stopped, did you go on fishing for +Mr. Anderson until the end of the season?-I had not commenced +then, and my family required meat, and I had no money to buy it +with. + +6882. Why were your supplies stopped? Was it because you were +in debt?-Mr. Anderson never said anything about that; but when I +asked for bread, he said they would not give it until fishing time. + +6883. How much were you in debt at that time?-I don't recollect. + +6884. Had your debt been running on for a number of years?- +Not for a great many years; but I was a good bit in debt to him, +although I don't recollect how much, as I had no pass-book, and +no copy of my account. + +6885. Was it ten years ago since that happened?-I cannot say +rightly, because I was away from him for a while, and then I had +to go back again, and afterwards I left him again. + +6886. How much were you due him? Was it as much as £10?-I +don't think it was so much as that, but I don't remember. + +6887. Was it not quite reasonable that he should ask you for +payment of your debt?-Certainly; but I had no money, and I +could not give it. He had a right to ask for his debt, as everybody +has; and I had a right to pay it, if I had been able. + +6888. Did you leave Williamson because you were in his debt +too?-No; the old man died, and then this man broke. I was +serving him after that, but he was not able to give me my supplies, +either clothes or meal, and therefore I left him. + +6889. Were you in his debt?-I was due him a little. + +6890. But you did not leave him because you were in his debt?- +No; it was only because he could not give me supplies. + +6891. And you get your supplies now from Mr. Smith?-Yes; I +have got them from him for the last two years, when I have been +fishing for him. + +6892. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the +year?-No; I have not settled with him this year, and I don't know +yet what I am to get. + +6893. Had you a balance to get last year?-No; I was nearly clear +with him. + +6894. But there was a balance against you?-Yes; but it was not +much-a mere trifle. + +6895. Do you get cash from him during the season if you want +it?-No; I will get anything he has in his shop to supply me with, +either meat or anything else; but cash is seldom to be got. + +6896. Why is that?-I don't know. I suppose it is because the man +has not got much himself. Cash is not often very plentiful with +him. + +6897. Have you often asked for cash?-Not often. I may have +asked for a shilling or two at a time. I could get anything else he +had in his shop, but money was a thing that was seldom or never +got. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE PETERSON, +examined. + +6898. You are a fisherman, and the son of a previous witness?-I +am. + +6899. Whom do you fish for?-I fished first for Mr. Anderson for +two years. + +6900. Whom do you fish for now?-For Mr. Joseph Leask, +Lerwick, at the Faroe fishing. + +6901. When did you give over going to the home-fishing?-In +1868. + +6902. You fished for Mr. Anderson then?-Yes. + +6903. Had you an account in his shop?-Yes. + +6904. When you settled up at the end of the year, had you a +balance to receive in cash?-Yes; in both years when I fished +for him. + +6905. Did you get money in the course of the season if you wanted +it?-No. + +6906. Did you ask for it?-Yes. + +6907. Was it refused to you?-Yes. + +6908. Why?-I don't know. + +6909. But you got as much goods as you wanted?-Yes. + +6910. What was the balance you received in cash at the end of +these years?-I don't remember how much it was the first year; +but in the second year I had 10s. to get. + +6911. In the Faroe fishing you are paid at the end of the year +too?-Yes. + +6912. Are you paid in cash?-Yes; if we want it, we are paid in +cash. + +6913. Have you an account in Mr. Leask's shop?-Yes. I have an +account the whole time, from the time I go out until I come back +and go again. + +6914. Is that account closed when you come back from the +fishing?-Yes; I have no account after that. + +6915. Is that because you live at a distance from Lerwick during +the winter?-I suppose that is the reason. + +6916. What is your account for?-For tea, coffee, butter, pork, and +such things as that. + +6917. Have you got a pass-book?-No, I asked for [Page 167] one +in 1870, but they refused to mark anything into a pass-book, and I +never asked for it again. + +6918. Who refused it?-The people in the shop; and they did not +give a pass-book to any one more than to me. + +6919. Was it refused to you in Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?- +Yes. + +6920. Did they give you any reason for refusing?-They thought it +too much bother, I suppose. I knew of no other reason. + +6921. Were the things you got for your own use at the fishing?- +Yes. + +6922. Did you take them all to the fishing with you?-Yes; we buy +cloth and all other things for ourselves. We are only supplied with +bread. + +6923. What you got from the shop was what you call small +stores?-Yes. + +6924. Did you get anything from Mr. Leask's shop except your +small stores and your outfit?-Yes; I bought some meal and took +it home. + +6925. Did you do that more than once?-I bought some for myself, +and I bought some when I went out first in spring, and sent it +home. + +6926. Were these the things that you wanted to have entered in the +pass-book?-Yes; these things of my own small stores and clothes, +and anything I required. + +6927. Did you get these articles at many different times in the +course of the year, or did you just get them once or twice when +you came home?-I got them twice. + +6928. How often does your boat generally come home from the +Faroe fishing in the course of the season?-We generally make +two voyages; last year we made three. + +6929. And you would be getting something additional each time +you came home?-Yes. All we require is small stores for every +voyage. + +6930. What amount of the price of your fish did you get at settling +time in these two years when you were at the Faroe fishing?-Last +year I got an account for £17, and this year it was £22. + +6931. That was the whole price of your fish?-Yes. + +6932. But how much had you to get in money at the end of the +year on the whole of your account?-I had £16 odds to get last +year, and this year I had £10. + +6933. Was that all paid to you in money at the settlement?-If I +had liked to take it all in money I could have got it, but I did not +take it all. I left some money in the book in Mr. Leask's shop. + +6934. Then your account is still standing in his book?-Yes. + +6935. What was your reason for sending meal home to your people +from Lerwick?-I suppose the reason was, because they could not +get a supply at home from Mr. Anderson, whom they were serving. + +6936. Was that about the time when your father left off fishing for +him?-Yes, that was about the time. + +6937. Did you ever work as a beach boy here?-No; I was always +at school before I went to the fishing. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN SANDISON, +examined. + +6938. Are you a fisherman?-I am. + +6939. Have you got some land?-Yes; I live on a farm in +Hillswick along with my father. The land we have belongs to +the Busta estate. + +6940. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes. + +6941. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Anderson. I have fished +for him and his brother for upwards of twenty years. I went to the +fishing when I was a little boy. I never was at the beach. + +6942. Do you settle every year for your fishing?-Yes; about the +middle of November. + +6943. You have an account of your own in Mr. Anderson's +ledger?-Yes. + +6944. Do you get supplies of goods from his shop?-Yes. + +6945. Do you get your goods anywhere else?-Yes, occasionally. + +6946. Where?-Perhaps from Laurence Smith or from Arthur +Harrison, just as may suit my convenience. + +6947. What quantity do you get at these different shops? Do you +get more at one than at another?-Yes; I get most from Mr. +Anderson's. + +6948. Do you get the same kind of goods there as at Smith's and +Harrison's?-Yes, much the same. + +6949. Then what is your reason for going to them?-I have had +little employment from Smith for the last two years, which led me +to take a few supplies from him. + +6950. Did you fish for him?-No; I was employed by him at other +kinds of work-principally boat-building during the winter and +spring. + +6951. Have you an account with Mr. Smith for boat-building?- +Yes. + +6952. Do you take goods in settlement of that account?-Yes; but +it is just because I think it right myself. I am in no way compelled +to do so. + +6953. But you keep an account with Smith, and the goods you +get are put on one side of it, and the amount of your payment +for boat-building is put on the other?-Yes; until the time of +settlement. + +6954. What is the time of settlement for boat-building?-Much +about the same time as for the other-some time in November or +December. + +6955. Do you get money whenever you ask it for your +boat-building?-Yes; if I was to ask for money, I would get it. + +6956. Do you get money during the season from Mr. Anderson for +your fishing when you ask for it?-Yes; I never was refused +money at any time. + +6957. Did you ever ask for it except at settling time?-Yes. + +6958. How much did you ask for?-Small sums. + +6959. You said the reason why you went to Laurence Smith for +some of your goods was, because you were employed by him: is it +a general sort of understanding that when a man is employed by a +merchant, he deals with him for his goods?-To a certain extent it +is. + +6960. He is not altogether bound to do it?-No, not in my +experience. + +6961. But is it thought fair and proper that he should take a certain +quantity of his goods from that merchant?-If a merchant gives a +man employment, and he has the goods as good and as cheap as +they can be got elsewhere, it is generally thought that the man +should take his goods from him. + +6962. Would it not be better to get your payments in cash at +shorter periods, rather than to have the whole of your money paid +to you at the end of the year?-I don't know. + +6963. Do you not forget what quantity of goods you have got from +the merchant in the course of the year?-Oh no. We can easily +remember what goods we have had; and besides, we generally +keep accounts of our own; at least I do so. + +6964. Have you got a pass-book in which are entered all the goods +you receive from Mr. Anderson?-Yes [produces pass-book]. + +6965. How long have you kept that passbook?-I think it is from +1865 or 1866 to the present time. + +6966. Is that just a copy of the account that is entered in Mr. +Anderson's book?-Yes. + +6967. I see here an entry of a payment to Mr. Inkster: what was +that for?-I asked Mr. Anderson to make it. + +6968. Were you in Mr. Anderson's debt at the time?-I don't think +I was. + +6969. Is there any entry here showing how you are settled with at +the end of the year?-Yes [showing]; the balance in 1870 was £14, +8s. 7d. + +6970. You live with your father?-Yes. + +6971. And you take meal from Mr. Anderson for the supply of +your father's family?-Yes, at times, when they require it. + +6972. Is the meal which you get there of good [Page 168] +quality?-Yes; it is the same as we can get anywhere else in the +country. + +6973. Have you compared the price of the meal which you get +there with the prices at which you can get it elsewhere?-Yes. + +6974. Have you got meal from Lerwick?-Yes; and when the cost +of carriage came to be added to it, it was much the same price as at +Mr. Anderson's. + +6975. Have you tried that more than once?-Yes. + +6976. Is the flour of good quality?-Yes; the flour is not bad, and +the price is just about the same as at Lerwick after adding +something for carriage. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE ANDERSON, +examined. + +6977. Are you a fisherman?-Yes; I have been a fisherman for +some time. + +6978. Have you got any land, or do you live with your father?-I +am living with my father. + +6979. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for +three years. + +6980. Do you settle with him every year in winter?-Yes. + +6981. Have you an account with him for the articles which you get +from his shop?-Yes. + +6982. Have you generally a balance to get in cash at the end of the +year?-Yes. If there is anything coming to me then, I get it. + +6983. When did you settle with him last?-I settled for last year +about two months ago. + +6984. How much was due to you then?-I was due him a little; but +it was not much. + +6985. Were you due him anything when you settled for the year +before?-I was. + +6986. And the year before that?-No; the year before that I was +clear. I had something to get the year before. + +6987. When you have anything to get at the end of the year, is it +paid to you in money?-No; I have not got any money. + +6988. When there was a balance due to you three years ago, did +you not get it in money?-No, I did not ask it. + +6989. It was left standing, and was carried into the next +account?-Yes. + +6990. And you got goods for it as you required them?-Yes. + +6991. Is it a usual thing for the men here to get their balances in +money?-No; they don't get them in money. + +6992. How do they get them?-They get supplies, and perhaps +they may get a little money. + +6993. Given after settlement?-Yes. + +6994. Have you a pass-book?-Yes [produces it]. + +6995. That book commences in 1870. Had you no pass-book +before?-No. + +6996. Would you not be better to be paid in cash for the whole of +what was due to you?-Yes; but I have never got the cash. + +6997. But could you not have got it in cash, instead of taking all +these goods, if you had liked?-No. I have been a poor man now +for the time that is past, and I have never had the money, and I +could not get it. + +6998. You required to get supplies and you could not pay for them +in money?-Yes. I always got what wanted from this man; he did +not keep anything back, but the money I did not have to get. I did +not have money, and I could not get it. + +6999. Did you begin to work as a beach boy?-Yes. I was two +years at Hillyar fishing station first, and then at Ollaberry. + +7000. Was that for Mr. Anderson?-No; it was for Mr. George +Henry. + +7001. What did you get as a beach boy?-I got 20s. the first year; +and I was there three months. + +7002. Was that as long ago as ten years?-Yes, it will be ten years +since I first went to it. + +7003. How was that 20s. paid to you?-I just got what I required +from him at the time. + +7004. Had you any money to get at the end of the first year?-No, +not at the end of the first year; but the second year I had 10s. to +get, and I got it. + +7005. How many years were you a beach boy?-Five years. + +7006. During that time you always had an account with your +employer?-Yes. + +7007. Were you always with the same employer?-No; I was two +years with Mr. Henry, and three years with Mr. Anderson. + +7008. Had you always a little balance of money to get at the end of +the year from Mr. Anderson?-No. The first year I was clear; the +second year I was due very little, but the third year I was due +something. Then, the first year I was at the haaf, I fished for Mr. +Anderson. + +7009. Could you have gone to fish for anybody else that year if you +had liked?-Yes; but I made a bargain that year to fish for him. + +7010. Was it because you were in his debt that you made a bargain +to fish for him?-Yes. I had nothing for supplies, and I got my +supplies the first year from him. + +7011. Would you have got your supplies from Mr. Anderson and +still have been at liberty to engage with anybody else for the +haaf?-No. + +7012. Why?-I did not engage with any other body that year. + +7013. But would you have been at liberty to have done that if you +had liked?-I don't know. If I had been clear with Mr. Anderson, +I might have had my liberty. + +7014. You thought you were not at liberty because, you were not +clear?-Yes. + +7015. Were you told you were not at liberty to engage with +anybody after you had got your supplies from Mr. Anderson?-No. + +7016. You just wanted the supplies, and you went and engaged +yourself to him?-Yes. Of course, I had to get my supplies, and I +just got them from the man that I was to engage with. + +7017. But nobody asked you to engage for the haaf?-Yes. + +7018. Is it usual for men to be engaged for the haaf fishing so early +as November?-Yes; most of them are engaged then. + +7019. Although the haaf fishing does not begin until six months +afterwards?-Yes. + +7020. What is their reason for engaging so early in the season?- +Most of time, when they are settling up, engage for a new year. +They make up their crews then. + +7021 Is it more convenient for the men to make up their crews +then?-Yes. + +7022. Why?-Because they know then who are to go together in +the rising year. + +7023 Do they get supplies more readily from the merchants if +they make up their crews at that time and engage to fish for the +following year?-Yes, when they are in debt. + +7024. Is that one reason why the men sometimes make up their +crews and make their engagements so soon?-I don't know, but I +believe there is something in that. + +7025. Was that the reason why you engaged so early that first year +when you went to the fishing?-It was because I was in debt that +year when I left the beach. + +7026. Have you been in debt in other years?-Yes. I was in debt +to Mr. Anderson at settling time for the first year I fished for him. +I left him because I was in debt, and could not get supplies. + +7027. In what year was that?-I think it is about six years ago + +7028. What was the amount of your debt?-I believe it was about +£5 odds. + +7029. Is it a usual thing for a man to leave the service of a +merchant because he is in his debt?-I don't know; but I could +not get supplies from him, [Page 169] and as I had to get them +somewhere, I went to another merchant for them. + +7030. Have you paid up that £5?-I have not. + +7031. Have you been asked to do so?-I was summoned once. + +7032. Did you go to court about it?-I did not. + +7033. Did you hear nothing more about it?-Of course, I paid a +little of it after I got the summons. + +7034. How much did you pay then?-About 12s. + +7035. How long ago is that?-It will be three years ago now. + +7036. Are you going to pay the rest of it?-I don't know. I would +never have refused to pay it if I had been able to pay. + +7037. Do you live with your father?-Yes; but my father is a poor +man, and I am the same, and I have not made much money. + +7038. Is it a common thing for a man to leave the employment +of a merchant when he is a little bit in his debt, and cannot get +supplies?-Of course I had to leave Mr. Anderson. + +7039. But is that a common thing?-I don't know. + +7040. Have you known many men who have done it?-No; there +are not many that I know of. I could not live, and for that reason I +had to leave Mr. Anderson. I gave myself up to fish for him next +season if he wanted it, but he told me as much as that he would not +have me, and that I must look out for myself, and I did so. + +7041. When was that?-Three years ago. + +7042. Did you offer to go back to him then?-I offered to stay +with him, and I went and asked for a little supply, but he would not +grant it, and for that reason I had to leave him. + +7043. Was the reason why he would not accept you, because you +could not work without supply, or was there any other reason?-I +cannot say exactly what the reason was. + +7044. What did he say about it?-He told me that I was to make +the best of myself that I could, and did so. I left him and fished for +the merchant I am now with. + +7045. You were a little above £5 in debt then?-Yes; between £5 +and £6. + +7046. Had you been as much in debt for years before?-No. I had +never been in debt before I went to Mr. Anderson. I was three +years with him at the fish-curing; and I was a little behind the first +year I went to the haaf, but it was not a great deal. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ALEXANDER +SANDISON, examined. + +7047. You are the father of a previous witness?-I am. + +7048. Did you hear the evidence which your son gave?-Yes. + +7049. Do you settle for your fishing at the end of the year in the +same way that he does?-When I was going to the fishing I did. + +7050. You don't go to the fishing now?-No; I have not gone for +the last three years. I am too old. + +7051. For whom did you fish when you were at it?-The last time +I was at the fishing it was for Mr. Anderson. + +7052. Had you generally a balance in cash to get at the end of the +year?-Occasionally. + +7053. Was there oftener a balance to get, or a balance against +you?-There was oftener a balance to get if the seasons turned +out good, or if anything occurred to make them good; but when +anything took place to render the season a bad one then there was +something due and it was put against me. + +7054. When you were in debt to Mr. Anderson, was there any +necessity for you to engage to him for the following year?-No. + +7055. Might you have engaged to anybody you liked?-Yes. I had +my freedom; there was no compulsion. + +7056. Did you generally engage to him?-Yes. + +7057. Was there any other person to whom you could have sold +your fish?-Yes; provided it had been necessary for me to have +done so; but I saw no occasion for it. + +7058. You never wished to do that?-No; not in the least. + +7059. Do you think it would be any advantage to the fishermen to +have a price fixed for their fish at the beginning of the season, so +that they might know what they were to get?-In some seasons it +might be, but with the fall and rise in the markets it is so uncertain. +It might be a gain or it might be a loss; they could not tell until the +time came for settlement. + +7060. I suppose the fishermen have nothing to do with fixing the +price of the fish?-No; it has not been customary for them to have +anything to do with that. + +7061. It has been the practice to leave it altogether to the fish +merchant?-Yes; so far as ever I knew. + +7062. Are there any complaints about the way in which the price is +fixed?-There certainly are some men who make it grievance of +it; but they are men who would not be satisfied if the thing were +done in any other way. + +7063. What do you think about it yourself?-I cannot say. + +7064. Have you no opinion about it at all?-Very little. It does +not concern me much. I have got too old now to be able to do +anything in the way of changing it. + +7065. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; but that is it thing I don't +interfere with. + +7066. Is it usual for the father of a family not to interfere with his +wife and daughters' account for hosiery?-They manage their own +affairs and their accounts themselves and we never interfere with +them in any way. + +7067. Do they sometimes help to keep the house?-Yes; in every +way they can. + +7068. But do they sometimes help with their hosiery to provide +for the house?-Yes; occasionally, when it falls in their way. + +7069. In this part of the country I understand they get provisions +for their hosiery?-Yes; to a certain extent, when required. + +7070. But you have nothing to do with their accounts or their +books?-No; I have no concern with them. They see their own +books and are satisfied with them. + +7071. Does a man's wife keep her own book for hosiery and settle +it herself?-Yes. + +7072. Is it the same with the eggs?-Yes. + +7073. The wife takes the eggs and sells them, and puts them into +her own account?-Yes. She takes them away and brings back +any stuff she wishes to get for them. That is the usual practice, +and it has been so all my days. + +7074. How are the people paid for their eggs? Are they paid in +goods?-If they choose they get bread, tea, sugar, or anything else +they want; or if they are not pleased to take that, they can get the +price. + +7075. Would it not be better to get the money for them?-It might +be, if there was any need for it; but if they are requiring the goods, +I don't see any use for taking the price and going to another shop +with it. + +7076. Then, with regard to the fishing, you say that the man who +has money to get will get it, but the man who does not have it to +get will not get it?-I fished last for Mr. Anderson, that is three +years ago, and I have seen me have a good deal to get; but a man +who had no cash due to him could not get it. I have been a little in +debt sometimes, it was not much, but I could not get any cash until +I paid off my debt. I could have got anything I wanted out of the +shop, provided it was in small quantities; and I should have been +sorry to look for anything more until the book was clear. When +that was done, then I could get it to my satisfaction. + +7077. When your book was not clear, would you have considered +yourself bound to go to fish for Mr. Anderson until it was clear?- +Yes. + +7078. You thought it was fair that you should fish for him until +your debt was paid?-Yes. + +[Page 170] + +7079. Did it often happen, in the course of your +experience, that you were a little behind in that way?-Yes. + +7080. And at such times you always thought it right to go to fish +for him?-Yes; so that I might clear it off by my fishing. + +7081. Were you ever objected to for selling your fish away from +Mr. Anderson?-No. + +7082. Did you not require to do that sometimes, in order to get a +little cash?-No. + +7083. Do you think the fishermen are as well off now as they used +to be long ago, or are they better off?-They are much better off +now than they were in my young days, because at that time +married men who had families only got from 4s. to 6s. for their +fish; while young men who were not married, and did not require +it so much, got 7s. or 6s. 6d. or 6s. Now they get an equal price, +and I think 6s. or 7s. is a good price. When the fishing turns out to +be successful, it pays them very well. + +7084. Have you always been satisfied with the quality of the things +which you got from your fish-merchant's store?-Yes. + +7085. Did you get anything at all at any other store when you were +fishing?-No; but I was only a short time at the fishing. I was at +sea for fifty years, sailing to Davis Straits and all round the globe, +and I only gave that up when I could not go any longer. + +7086. How many years were you fishing at the haaf?-Only four +years. + +7087. You were a sailor in the merchant service before that?- +Yes. + +7088. Did you go to Greenland too?-Yes; I went twenty-seven +voyages to Davis Straits. + +7089. Where did you ship for that?-From Lerwick. + +7090. Who engaged you there?-There were various agents. I +generally engaged with Mr. Hay. I think I went ten or twelve +voyages for him. + +7091. When did you last go to the whale fishing?-I think it was +about 1850 or 1851. + +7092. How were the men's wages paid then?-It was by so much +per month and an allowance of oil-money besides. + +7093. Did you get an advance when you shipped?-Yes. + +7094. And did you get an outfit from the agent who engaged +you?-If you required it, it was there for you; and if not, you got +your advance, and could take it where you pleased. + +7095. Did you generally get your outfit from the agent in Lerwick +who engaged you?-Yes. + +7096. When you came back from your Greenland voyage, in what +way did you settle?-Those who lived at a distance would get £2 +or £3 if the voyage had been good, and they had money to get; and +then they would go home and come back at Martinmas to settle +with the agent. There was an account kept against them in the +book which they had to settle at that time. + +7097. What quantity of goods did you generally have in your +account with the agent at Lerwick?-The greatest part of them +were sea-going clothes. + +7098. You did not generally get supplies from him for your +families?-No; not very often. + +7099. In those times did you ever get your outfit from any person +except the agent who engaged you?-No; we always got it from +the agent who engaged us. We could change the agent if we +thought we could make any better of it, but they were nearly all +about the same. + +<Adjourned>. + + +Hillswick, Northmaven: Friday, January 12, 1872. +<Present>-Mr. Guthrie. + +DAVID GREIG, examined. + +7100. You have been for a long time in the employment of Messrs. +Hay & Co.?-I have been with them for nearly twenty-three +years-first in their Lerwick house, and I have been manager for +them at North Roe for ten years. + +7101. North Roe is part of the Gossaburgh estate?-Yes. + +7102. Do you manage the fishings on that estate in Northmaven +parish, as well as those in Yell?-There is a separate management +in Yell, so far as the rents are concerned. In Yell there is part of +the estate on the west side of the island, and part on the east side. I +have nothing to do with the fishermen on the east side, only with +those on the west side. + +7103. The fishermen on the west side deliver their fish where?- +At Feideland. + +7104. That is one of your stations?-Yes. + +7105. You have prepared a note of the tenants or holdings upon +the estate, in which the number is stated to be 56: is that in this +parish only, or in Yell also?-These are the farms or holdings in +this parish. + +7106. Are they entirely under your management?-Yes. + +7107. The note also states that the gross rental last year was +£193, 7s. 6d., of which £17 is for Hay & Co., and the gross rental +charged to tenants is £176, 7s. 6d.?-Yes. + +7108. The £17 is allowed for land held by Hay & Co. +themselves?-Yes; land and islands belonging to the estate +on which they graze. + +7109. Do you know the amount of the tack duty payable by Hay & +Co. for that estate?-Not exactly. I think it is somewhere about +£130 or £140; but then they have to pay all public burdens, and +they have no claim against the proprietor for repairs on the +property. They do all the repairs at their own expense, and keep +up the property. + +7110. So that it is not calculated that upon the rents payable by the +fishermen, Hay & Co. have any surplus?-I don't think it. When +the expense of management is taken off, I don't think they will +have anything. + +7111. I understand the fishermen hold their land subject to the +condition of fishing during summer for Hay & Co.?-It is usually +understood so. + +7112. And I presume that is the advantage which Hay & Co. +chiefly derive from their tack?-It was with a view to that that +they entered into it. + +7113. What is the average rent payable by each fisherman?-The +average rental charged to fishermen is 3 guineas for each holding. +The highest is £6, and the lowest is £2, 7s. I may say that the rents +on that estate have not been altered for over 50 years, while other +estates have been raised very considerably. The land there is, I +think, much cheaper than it is throughout Shetland generally. + +7114. Do you think the rents would bear an increase?-In +comparison with other places, a very considerable increase. + +7115. How many of the tenants fished last year in the summer +fishing at North Roe?-Thirty-three. + +7116. Of the rest, how many were unfit for fishing, and how many +were engaged in other fishings?-I think there were three tenants +fishing to other curers. + +7117. In the summer fishing?-Yes; there were two at Faroe and +two or three, two at least, sailing south. Others were employed as +fish-curers and tradesmen, and in other capacities. + +[Page 171] + +7118. There were three fishing for other curers: was that by +permission or sufferance?-By sufferance, not by permission. + +7119. No objection was taken to them doing so?-No; and no +consequences have followed. + +7120. Was that about an average number of men fishing for other +curers, or was it greater or less than usual?-I think there have +been fewer in some years; and in some years I think there have +been none at all. + +7121. You employed nine deep-sea boats at North Roe?-Yes, in +this parish. + +7122. And you had also some crews from Yell?-Yes; there were +four deep-sea boats from Yell. + +7123. There were also some small boats?-Yes. + +7124. What distinction is there between the small boats and the +large ones?-There is no difference in the fishings to which they +go. They fish for the same sort of fish; but the small boats do not +carry so large a crew, and the boats themselves are not so large. +Generally these small boats belong to the men themselves; the +large boats are hired from Messrs. Hay & Co. + +7125. Is the boat hire the same with you as in other places?-No; +it is less. In some places they charge 50s. and as high as £3; but in +our case it has never been above 48s. + +7126. That includes the lease of the boat for the season?-Yes. + +7127. What else?-Nothing but the material belonging to the boat: +she is made seaworthy, and everything belonging to the boat is +supplied,-sails, oars, cordage, compass, and everything else. + +7128. How are the lines provided?-The lines are given to the +men, on their own account, at the usual selling price, and they are +allowed to pay for them in three years. + +7129. Are there any other articles which are furnished to the men +as part of their outfit for the summer fishing?-I don't think there +is anything else. Of course they have their sea clothing, and +provisions and things of that kind, to get when they engage for the +fishing. + +7130. Are all these usually or invariably supplied by Hay & Co. +from their shop?-No; not invariably. I have known one or two +cases where the parties have sent to Lerwick and bought their +goods there; but those parties who have done so have found it was +not a profitable thing, and have come back to me again. + +7131. I suppose the carriage was expensive?-There was the +carriage and the inconvenience of sending for them, and they had +no profit by doing it. + +7132. Do you mean that the price at Lerwick was as high as at +North Roe?-Yes; we generally endeavour to charge about the +Lerwick prices, only adding something for the carriage. + +7133. How many fishermen were employed by you last year +altogether?-There were 98 altogether; 28 from Yell and 70 +from Northmaven, in 16 boats. + +7134. Have you made any note from your books of the total +amount of the earnings of these men?-I think that last year it +was approximately about £1220. + +7135. Is that the total amount of their earnings from fishing, or +does it include sums due to the men from any other source?-That +is their earnings from the fishing alone. + +7136. It does not include any stock that may have been purchased +from them, or their payment for any other sort of work which they +may have done for you?-No. It is taken from the book in which I +keep the private accounts against Hay & Co. I have to charge +them with that sum for the fish bought and paid for, in the ordinary +course of business. + +7137. Have you got your books here?-Yes. I was not called upon +by my citation to bring them, but I have brought them. + +7138. You were not called upon by your citation to bring them, +because it was thought that, in consequence of the distance you +had to come, it might cause you an unreasonable amount of +inconvenience. Is it from these books that you have made up this +statement?-Not from this book [showing]. It has been made up +from the statement kept in a private ledger with Hay & Co. It +could, however, be got from the books I have brought by going +over the accounts. + +7139. You have also made a note of the average earnings of the +men?-Yes. It will be a little over £12. + +7140. Does that apply only to the 98 men you have mentioned?- +Yes. + +7141. Or does it also include the earnings of the boys and men +employed in curing?-No; it does not include that. It is merely the +fishermen. + +7142. You say in your note that it includes men and boys?-Yes; +there is a fee'd boy in each boat, and he is included in the general +average. The fees are paid to the boys by the fishermen off their +earnings. + +7143. Of the 98, how many will be boys so fee'd?-There were 8 +in North Roe, and 3 in Yell; that is 11 fee'd boys out of the 98. + +7144. What is the amount of the fee of each boy?-I think from £2 +to 50s.; and then they have an allowance to carry two lines or +buchts, and they get the fish caught by them. They take their +chance of the fishing of these two lines. + +7145. Do they sell these fish to you?-Yes. + +7146. Will the takes from these lines be anything like equal to the +fees paid to the boys?-I think in or two cases this year, the lads' +fishing was more than their fee. + +7147. Have the men themselves private lines of that kind?-I don't +think so. + +7148. I was told elsewhere that such a practice sometimes +existed?-Perhaps it may, but I don't think it exists in this part +of the country. + +7149. Then, from £1220 as the earnings of the fishing, I suppose +you would deduct £18 or £20 for the nine boys?-Yes, or about +£20 or £25; I think that would be enough. That would leave the +average for the men much higher than I have put it there. + +7150. It would leave about £13, 8s. 6d. as the average earnings of +the men?-Yes. + +7151. How much was the cash paid at settlement?-£553 and +£170 additional approximately for rent. + +7152. That was entered in account to the credit of the men?-Yes; +that is taken off their fishings. + +7153. So that the average amount paid in cash would be about +£8?-Yes; and if you deduct about £2 for each man for boat hire +and provisions through the year, then the difference between the +£8 and what is paid at the stations would give what is supplied to +their families during the season. + +7154. Adding about £2 for the amount of boat hire, lines, and the +supplies at the fishing station, that makes the £10, and the balance +of £3, 8s. 6d. consists of supplies to the families during the +year?-Yes. + +7155. Are most of these men's families resident near your shop at +North Roe?-I think the farthest distant is about three miles; and +these are very few, only about half-a-dozen families. The rest are +all quite near. + +7156. Do the families have many cash transactions at your shop in +addition to those that enter the account?-I think so. + +7157. Have you any idea what becomes of the remainder of the +money that is paid in cash at the end of the year?-I have often to +transmit cash to Hay & Co. which has been received at the shop +through the year, being returned to it for purchases. + +7158. That shows that there is a considerable amount of the cash +spent in your shop after being paid to the men at settlement?- +Yes. + +7159. Have you any notion of what that might amount to in a +single year?-It varies very much. + +7160. Would it be £100 or £200?-No; I don't think it is so much +as that. + +7161. Are there other shops in your neighbourhood where the men +and their families are in the habit of dealing for their groceries?- +They deal at several other shops. There is one small shop, Mr. +John Inkster's, quite near ours. The next is Mr. Laurenson's, about +three miles off; and the people sometimes go to Ollaberry and +Hillswick. + +[Page 172] + +7162. You have reason to believe that some of their cash receipts +go to these shops?-I think that is sometimes the case, and some +of their payments again come back to me-I mean that some of +those who are receiving cash from Mr. Laurenson and others come +back to me in turn. + +7163. Can you say how many of the 98 men whom you employ are +in debt to Hay & Co. at the end of the season?-I don't think there +are six overdrawn accounts. + +7164. But that has been after a favourable year?-Yes; it has been +a very favourable year, and that is a smaller number than usual. + +7165. Do you find that men who are in your debt are generally +inclined to fish for you in the following year?-I have never had +any difficulty in that way. + +7166. Do they generally come to you as a matter of course and +engage for the following season?-As a rule, I have endeavoured +to keep the men out of debt as much as possible and I have always +found it to be the best principle. + +7167. But do the men who are in your debt generally come to you +to fish for the following year, in order to wipe off their debt?-I +don't think that in my ten years experience a single man has left +the employment in consequence of being in debt. + +7168. Have you in some years had a much larger number than six +men in your debt at settlement?-Yes. I could not give the exact +numbers; but there have been much larger numbers than that. + +7169. Perhaps three or four times as many?-I should think so. + +7170. The greater number of the men at the station?-No; but +perhaps one-half of them may have been in debt in an +unfavourable year. + +7171. Was that long ago?-We had a turn of unfavourable years I +think four or five years ago. + +7172. Did their indebtedness sometimes run over a series of +years?-In two or three cases it has done so. + +7173. But not in many cases?-No. I can only think of three cases +just now. + +7174. Did these men continue to fish for you until their debt was +cleared off?-Yes. + +7175. Do you remember the amount of the largest debt of that kind +you have ever had in your books?-No; I have never had occasion +to take that out. My inventory is taken in the month of May, when +half the year is gone, and when half the debts are incurred, and +then they have got considerable supplies for the rising season. + +7176. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes. + +7177. Are there two prices paid to the women for it?-Yes. For +the past two or three years the price has been 4s. 6d. in goods or +4s. in cash, with a royalty course to the proprietor. + +7178. You have to pay a royalty to the proprietor besides what you +pay to the women?-Messrs. Hay & Co. are the lessees of the +shores, and they reserve that right to themselves, the same as if +they were the proprietors. + +7179. Is there a royalty paid by the gatherers to Hay & Co.?-It is +taken off the price; because if the shores belonged to anybody else +they would have to pay it. + +7180. Who would have to pay it?-Hay & Co. I think it is +generally understood that the buyer of the kelp shall pay the +royalty to the proprietor. + +7181. But Hay & Co. are not both proprietors and lessees?-They +are in the same position as the proprietor, and they buy the kelp +too. + +7182. How does the royalty enter your accounts?-It does not +appear in the accounts at all. The price paid to the makers is just +4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash. + +7183. Do you mean that an ordinary lessee would have to pay a +royalty to the proprietor in addition to the cost of the purchase of +the kelp?-I mean that if Hay & Co. were not buying the kelp +themselves, but were letting the shores to some other party, that +party would be accountable to Hay & Co. for the royalty. + +7184. Therefore you don't allow for any royalty as forming part of +the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. to the proprietor?-No. I +think it is understood or expressed in their lease that they should +have the kelp shores. + +7185. Then the profit made on sales of kelp by Hay & Co. is larger +than that of other lessees by the amount of the royalty usually paid +by them?-Yes. + +7186. Why do you fix a different price in goods and in cash for +kelp?-Because I think the utmost value is given for the kelp +which they are warranted in giving, when it is paid for in goods, +and they have a profit on the goods; but when it is paid for in cash +they cannot be expected to receive the kelp and give the full value +for it without having any profit on it. + +7187. Is there no profit on the kelp which you buy at 4s. per cwt. in +cash?-Yes; there is a profit upon that; but if we paid 4s. 6d. in +cash for it, then there would be no profit. + +7188. But you give them 4s. 6d. worth of goods for because you +have a profit on the goods?-Yes. + +7189. Is there no profit on the kelp when it is bought at 4s. 6d.?- +There would not be any, taking the royalty into consideration. + +7190. How many tons of kelp do you sell?-I only took a note of it +for last year, when there were twelve tons. + +7191. At what rate was it sold?-I did not get the account sales, +but I understood the price paid in Shetland, free on board, was £5, +10s. per ton. + +7192. That is 5s. 6d. per cwt. Will it take 1s. per cwt. to put it on +board ship?-No. + +7193. Where is it shipped?-The kelp I take is shipped in one +of Hay & Co.'s vessels, carried to Simbister, landed there, and +re-shipped again. + +7194. By free on board, do you mean free on board at +Simbister?-Yes. + +7195. You think that shipment and re-shipment would not cost 1s. +per cwt.?-I don't think it would. + +7196. Therefore there would be some margin of profit upon the +kelp bought at 4s. 6d. and sold at 5s. 6d.?-If you buy the kelp at +4s. 6d. and pay 1s. of royalty, then it is actually costing you 5s. 6d., +and there is no margin left for the expense of receiving and +shipping and transhipping again. + +7197. But I understood you to say that there was no royalty +actually paid by Hay & Co.?-Neither there is; but they have the +same right to receive that royalty, or to calculate upon that royalty +as if it were paid, they being in the position of proprietors of the +property. + +7198. You have said that the amount of cash paid to the fishermen +at settlement was about £553, and that the average amount due by +each man for goods to his family would be £3, 8s. 6d.: would there +be no cash advances to them during the season?-Yes. + +7199. These would be included in that sum?-Yes. + +7200. Would the amount of these advances be material?-I am not +prepared to say how much they would be. It would depend upon +the necessities of the man. I think in one case they amounted to +£12, 9s. 6d. + +7201. Was that sum paid in cash before settlement?-Yes. + +7202. That would be nearly the amount of his total earnings?-It +would be nearly the amount of the average earnings; but that man +had very high earnings. + +7203. I believe you have made some calculation as to the total +amount of summer fish bought: what is it?-During the ten years I +have been manager at North Roe, there have been summer fish +bought to the value of about £7000; and during the same time the +cash paid at settlement has been about £4420. That includes the +rents of tenants who have fished; but it does not include the cash +advanced to them through the year, which in some years has been +pretty considerable. The following is a statement for the last four +years, of the value of the fishings, and the amount paid in cash at +settlement: + Cash Paid at + Value of Fishings. Settlement. + 1868 About £400 £290 + 1869 704 335 + 1870 1003 540 + 1871 1220 723 + +[Page 173] + +7204. Is there any winter fishing at North Roe?-There is what we +call home fishing for nine months of the year in small boats. + +7205. But the proper home fishing terminates about August or +September?-The haaf fishing terminates about 12th August. +After that the men immediately resume fishing in their small +boats, and continue it until the middle of May next year. + +7206. Are these the small boats you mentioned before as belonging +to the men themselves?-Yes. + +7207. I think you said that of these there were only two at North +Roe?-That was in the summer time; but almost every man on the +property has a share of a small boat for the winter fishing. + +7208. Are these boats generally purchased from Hay & Co.?-I +think since I came there they have generally been purchased from +them, but not altogether. + +7209. Are they paid for by instalments?-Our bargain for them is, +that they are to be paid in three years, and during these three years +they stand in separate account in my books. + +7210. Is there a separate boat book?-They are entered in the +general ledger, but kept in a separate account; and at the expiry +of the three years, if it is not paid off, it ought properly to be put to +the man's private account, and to become part of his shop account. +That is the rule, although, in some cases, I have not carried it out +to the extent of carrying it to the man's private account at the close +of three years. + +7211. Do you generally find that that boat account is paid off +within the three years?-No; it is frequently continued longer. + +7212. In what way are the fish disposed of that are taken in that +small-boat fishing in winter?-They are sold when the men come +ashore. I tell the men what price will be paid; and if they agree to +take that price, receive the fish and pay for them every time they +are delivered. + +7213. Is that paid to them in cash?-They are at liberty to take +cash, or to buy goods, or do anything they like; but we never leave +these transactions unsettled. + +7214. In point of fact, is it generally cash that passes, or do the +men take what goods they want at the shop?-In many cases, I +think in most cases, if the fishing is small, perhaps they want as +much, or pretty near the value, when they come ashore, out of the +shop in goods for their houses; but if they have been having a few +days' successful fishing, then they take the cash when they don't +require the goods. They are not asked to take the goods; and they +are not required to do it in any way. + +7215. Are they bound to sell these fish to you in the same way as +their summer fish?-I think that is understood; but there have been +many exceptions that I have known. + +7216. Are there more exceptions in the case of this small-boat +fishing than of the summer fishing?-I think so. + +7217. Have you any note or book here, showing the amount of the +transactions with regard to this small-boat fishing?-No. I have +offered the men, when they came ashore, to pay them for their +haul, and then they could go where they liked with the money; but +they said, 'What is the use of doing that?-We want so-and-so +from the shop, and we would just have to give the money back +again.' + +7218. How is it ascertained at the shop what amount the men have +to get in goods for their fish? Do you take a note of it at the +time?-Yes; and I enter it in the fish book. + +7219. And from that note you know how much the man has to +receive in goods?-Yes; or how much he has to receive in cash. + +7220. But he takes the goods if he chooses to go to the shop at the +time?-Yes. + +7221. What amount of transactions of that kind may there be in the +course of a year?-Last year I think it was only about £56. + +7222. Was that the whole value of the fish so purchased?-Yes; +but I think in some years since I came there it has been over £100. + +7223. It is only the North Roe men you are speaking of now?- +Yes. + +7224. The Yell men don't deliver their fish to you in that way?- +No; not generally. + +7225. Then that sum would be paid to about 33 men?-I think +there are more than that who engage in the winter fishing. Some +of the men who go to the Faroe fishing, and some also who go +south, employ their time in winter in that way. + +7226. That would make it a very small sum that is paid to the men +for their winter fishing?-Yes; it is very small. + +7227. So that it rather seems the winter fishing is hardly worth +taking into account in your general transactions?-It is not. + +7228. Do Messrs. Hay & Co. purchase cattle to any extent for the +purpose of selling them?-They have an island, the island of Uyea, +where they graze for their own purposes. + +7229. Is that in Unst?-No; it is in this parish. I buy the cattle for +that island yearly. + +7230. Is it simply for grazing purposes there that you buy the +cattle?-For no other purpose. + +7231. Are they bought at public sales?-Generally they are. + +7232. Do these cattle enter the accounts of the fishermen?-Yes, +mostly. They pass through their accounts; but I could show cases +where they received the cash again immediately. + +7233. Are they not settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes; or +they get cash for them at any time they want. + +7234. Are these cattle often taken from men who are in arrear with +their accounts?-No; they are never taken from the people who +are in arrears. If a man was in arrears, he might be asked to bring +his cow to the public sale if he was to dispose of her; and then we +might buy her or not. + +7235. There is said to be a system in Shetland of marking the +horns of cattle when the merchant or landlord has a debt against a +fisherman tenant: can you explain what the practice is with regard +to that?-I believe such a practice does exist; but in my own +experience I have never set any value upon it at all, and never +practised it at North Roe. + +7236. What do you understand the practice to be?-I understand +that if any one has a claim against a tenant, either proprietor or +merchant or any other party, they consider that if their mark or +initials or brand is put upon the horns of the animal, it then +becomes their property, even in cases where the animal has not +been removed from the possession of the original owner. That is +how I understand it has been done in my neighbourhood. + +7237. Do you understand that it is usual for the creditor to remove +the cattle so marked from the premises of the debtor, and to keep +them in his byre or yard for some time, and afterwards to return +them upon loan, that removal being understood to be the badge of +possession or the sign of the transference of the property?-Yes. I +did that myself in one case, but it was not a direct case of that +kind. The debtor was the owner of the cow, but another party had +the cow in his possession; there was an intermediate party in the +matter. I bought it from the man, putting a value upon it, and +removed it. + +7238. Charging the price to his credit in his account with you?- +Yes. I removed it to my own byre and kept it there for some time, +and then, as I was not wanting it very much, I gave it back to the +poor man who had it originally; but the man I gave it back to was +not the debtor at all. + +7239. In what way was that third party in possession of it?-I +don't know. I think he had reared the animal. There is such a +system as giving a calf, if you have too many and don't want it, +to another man, and he brings it up; and when the calf comes to +be sold, one-half of the proceeds belongs to the original owner. + +7240. Then you think this beast may have been in the possession +of the party on some such footing as [Page 174] that?-I think it is +possible it may have been in that way. + +7241. If that was so, your debtor would only be the proprietor of +one-half of it in reality?-No; there was something peculiar in this +case, because the debtor was the sole owner of the beast. + +7242. Then that was not such a case as you have mentioned?-No. + +7243. May the possessor of the animal have been another creditor +of your debtor who had it?-No; he was not. + +7244. Is it possible that he may have hired it from your debtor?-I +don't think it. + +7245. You think he had it simply in loan?-Yes. + +7246. When cattle are taken to market in that way by a creditor, do +you know, from the general understanding of the country, how the +price is fixed?-In many cases I think there is no price fixed at all. + +7247. The animal is just taken generally for security of the +debt?-Yes, in the meantime, until it is sold, and then the +proceeds go to the party who put on the mark. + +7248. These sales, I understand, take place at fixed places in each +district, and at certain times in the year?-Yes, in May and +October. + +7249. They are conducted by public auction?-Yes. + +7250. At these auctions does the creditor generally appear and bid +for the marked cattle?-I don't think it. It would not avail for him +to do so. + +7251. Why?-Because any other party at the auction could buy +them. + +7252. But is the bidding perfectly fair?-Perfectly fair on all +occasions. + +7253. You do not know that any suspicion exists that any one of +the public may not bid, or runs any risk of the displeasure of some +powerful neighbour by bidding for cattle that are so marked?-No. +I would bid in such at case myself, and I have explained to the +country people that if the auctioneer refused a bid from anybody, +they could have an action against him for refusing it. + +7254. You are now speaking of your own practice, but do you not +know that such fear of bidding against a merchant-creditor exists +in other parts of the country?-I never heard of such thing, and I +do not think it does exist. + +7255. Have you known merchants buying in cattle so marked at +sales?-There is nothing of the kind practised in our quarter, and I +have never observed anything of the kind at sales elsewhere. + +7256. Are you aware whether many of the fishermen at your +station keep accounts at any of the banks?-I know that some of +the men in our neighbourhood do have accounts in the banks for I +have transacted such business for some of them. + +7257. Is it the case that when a man who has a bank account wants +a little money, he prefers to apply to the merchant for an advance +to account of his next year's fishing, or of the present year's +fishing, if it is during the fishing season, rather than to take it from +the bank with which he has the account?-I believe it is. This year +I sent £11 for a tenant to be lodged in one of the banks in Lerwick, +and when I handed him the deposit receipt, he said, 'Perhaps it +will not be long before I want some of this again.' I said to him, 'I +think you had better not take any of it out, but let it stand in the +bank; and if you want to keep you going until next year, you can +get it from me rather than disturb your bank account.' + +7258. That was a case in which you were on such terms with the +fisherman, and had such confidence in him, that you were ready to +make him the advance?-Yes. + +7259. But do you know whether it is the practice for fishermen +who have funds in the bank privately, to exert themselves +somewhat in order to get advances from an unwilling merchant, +rather than disturb their own bank account?-I have heard of such +a case in our own neighbourhood. + +7260. But don't you know of any such cases in your own +experience?-No. + +7261. Do you know whether it is the practice at all?-I don't know +that it is the practice. + +7262. Do merchants or shopkeepers who are in the fish trade act +as bankers to their men to any extent in this part of the country?- +I cannot speak to anything of that kind being done of my own +knowledge. + +7263. Do none of the fishermen keep money lying in your hands: +do they not leave it with you at the settlement?-Very seldom. + +7264. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?- +No; Hay & Co. are agents in Lerwick for that society, and I send to +them for any tickets want. + +7265. Do the annual subscriptions enter the accounts of your +fishermen at North Roe?-Yes. + +7266. When payments are to be made to the men on account of the +society, how are these made?-I have never had a case of the kind. +There has been only one case where a fisherman had to get money, +and he went down to Hay & Co. at Lerwick, and got it himself +direct. + +7267. Would there be any difficulty, in consequence of the want of +banks in the district, in introducing a cash system of payments in a +parish like this: I mean the system of paying in cash for fish at +more frequent periods, and paying in cash for shop purchases, and +also paying in cash for hosiery?-There would certainly a great +disadvantage in doing so, in consequence of the want of a bank in +our neighbourhood, because there was a cash system of payments, +we would have to get larger sums of money from the bank; and to +fetch money from the bank, in order to make those payments, +would be rather a risky thing, seeing that we must either convey it +by special messenger from Lerwick, or by the steamer. + +7268. I suppose, however, that if a cash system were common in +the country, a branch bank would probably be established at some +convenient place?-I don't know about that; I think that, having +three banks already in Lerwick, they would hardly be likely to send +a bank farther north this way. I don't think the business would pay +them to do so. + +7269. Are you a member of the parochial board the parish?-I am. + +7270. Are you aware whether many persons who are members of +the families of fishermen-tenants or crofter-fishermen are +supported by the board?-I know several cases of that kind. + +7271. Are these persons members of the families of fishermen who +have considerable incomes from fishing and from land?-I don't +think so. I think that in cases where their children are able to +support them they are bound to do so. + +7272. But is there an inclination among the people here to get +support from the poor's roll to a greater extent than existed some +years ago?-I think that feeling is on the increase in the parish, +and I think the present poor law tends to increase the feeling. + +7273. Do you know what is the usual allowance given to paupers +in this parish?-As far as I can recollect, I think it ranges from 1s. +6d. to 15s. a month. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, MORGAN LAURENSON, +examined. + +7274. You are a merchant at Lochend?-I am. + +7275. Do you deal both in drapery goods and provisions?-Yes; +but principally in drapery. + +7276. Do you employ any fishermen?-A few; but I only engage +in that trade to a small extent. + +7277. How many boats do you send out to summer fishing?-I had +three boats last year, two large and one small. + +7278. Are you a landholder or tacksman?-No. + +7279. You engage any fishermen in the neighbourhood who are +willing to make a contract with you?-Yes. + +[Page 175] + +7280. You have no men who are bound to fish for you?-None. + +7281. Do you run accounts with the men in the way which has +been described by the previous witness and settle with them +yearly?-Yes. + +7282. Do you find that the balances are generally in the +fishermen's favour, or against them?-For the last two years +they have generally been in their favour. In former years they +were not generally so; they were often against them. + +7283. Do fishermen continue for any length of time to fish for you +without changing, or do you find that you have different fishermen +in your employment in different years?-I have not been very long +in the business, only since 1865. I am a new tenant comparatively; +but for the past five years, ever since I commenced to have a boat, +I have not had many changes. + +7284. You must have had fifteen or sixteen fishermen in your +employment during that time?-Yes. + +7285. Have they generally been the same men throughout?-Yes. +Perhaps a man in each boat has gone away to another fish-curer; +but generally they have been the same. + +7286. Do you think the fact of a man having an account in your +books is generally an inducement to him to continue in your +employment for the next year?-I could not say that it is so in all +cases. + +7287. But in some cases it may have that effect?-Yes; in a few +cases. + +7288. Does a fisherman get accommodation from you, in the shape +of supplies of goods more readily if he fishes for you, and agrees +to continue to fish, than if he were not in your employment?-Yes. + +7289. Are the fishermen generally in a condition to require that +accommodation?-Most of them are. + +7290. A man may not require it every year, but in the course of +half-a-dozen years he is pretty likely, as a general rule, to be in +want of some accommodation of that sort?-Yes; that is the case +with most of them. + +7291. Do you deal in hosiery to a considerable extent?-Yes. + +7292. Do you buy it, or do you give out wool to knitters?-I buy it +chiefly. We give out wool to those who have not got wool of their +own; but many of our knitters, I may say the greater number of +them, have their own wool. + +7293. The knitting in this district, I understand, is more of the +coarser kinds of worsted?-Yes; the finer underclothing is made +here, not fancy goods. At least, fancy goods are made only to a +very small extent. + +7294. But both in the case of knitters employed by you and of +people who sell you their goods manufactured with their own +wool, is the payment made at your counter in goods or in cash?- +Invariably in goods. + +7295. Are you often asked to give a portion of the price in cash?- +No; very seldom. + +7296. Do the knitters run accounts with you?-Yes. + +7297. And these are squared up every now and then in your books? +-Yes. As a rule, we never run long accounts. The accounts are +squared up at short intervals, and the women get a bill at the +counter if there is a balance in their favour. They get a note of +their purchases in their hands; and my usual mode is, to enter the +balance in a bill, which they hold until they return with some other +stuff and pay it. I find it is the best plan to keep the accounts +short. + +7298. At settlement do they get a note?-They get a receipt for the +amount paid, and if they have a balance to receive, that is paid in +goods over the counter. + +7299. If they don't want the goods at the time, how is that +arranged?-It is very rarely that they don't take the full value; +but if they do not, what remains over is left as a balance, and it is +usually carried into a new account. Sometimes they want it on a +line, stating that the balance amounts to so much, and that I shall +pay it. + +7300. Is that line given in the form of an I O U, or of a bill?-I +have given it in the form of an I O U, but very rarely. I generally +put the name of the party on the line, because in some cases they +have lost the lines, and then come back to me, when it was not +entered in the book, and asked the value of them. I did not wish to +allow them to suffer for that; but as I was afraid that another party +might get the line and bring it in, I always put the name on it. +7301. You put the name on it in order to prevent the value of it +from being demanded by any person except the one to whom it +was granted at first?-Yes. I generally enter the lines in a book +now, so that I may be kept safe. + +7302. Have you a list of the lines which you issue?-For some +time past, I have entered them in a book when they were given out. + +7303. But you have no separate register for such lines?-No. + +7304. Is there any reason why cash is not asked in these +transactions for hosiery?-It is understood that we are not +prepared generally to give any cash; but in the case of a regular +knitter who wanted some part of her payment in cash, I have never +refused, so far as I recollect, to give her what she asked. However, +it was usually a comparatively small sum that was asked in that +way. + +7305. Do you sometimes buy articles all for cash, making special +bargains for them?-Occasionally, if it is anything special. + +7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have +been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I +have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that the +women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one +occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to +another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their +hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but +they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's +undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have +offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in +cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it, +and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash, +and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the +highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a +rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in +selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in +exchange. + +7307. Do you sell your goods south?-Yes. + +7308. Are you prepared to show that just now?-Yes. [Produces +book.] This [showing] is the sales book, containing copies of the +invoices. + +7309. The women in their accounts are charged with the wool as +got by them?-Yes. + +7310. Are they credited again with the knitted goods as got by +you?-Yes. + +7311. Therefore, in that way the wool is really given out by you to +them, to be knitted as by persons in your employment?-No, they +are not employed by me, but I expect the women to bring back the +goods to me, as we don't sell wool, because it is rather difficult to +get. With regard to the prices, I show here an entry in a copy +invoice, under date Sept. 14, 1871 of half a dozen girls' polkas at +15s., 7s. 6d., and I also show an entry in my women's ledger of 'by +one doz. girls' polkas, 14s. 4d.,' on January 27, 1870. + +7312. Was there any material difference in the price of polkas +within that period of 18 months?-No. I also show an entry under +date February 18, 1870, of 1/3 doz. girls' polkas at 15s., 5s. In +addition to the price entered in the women's ledger, there is the +price of re-dressing, which is about 6d. a dozen, and there are +boxes required in which to send them away, for which we do not +get any return. + +7313. Do you swear that these girls' polkas are a fair sample of the +other articles in which you deal, with regard to the expense of +production to you and the invoice price to your customer in the +south?-Yes. I may state that we have a very strong desire to give +encouragement to good knitters, by giving them the highest prices. + +7314. Can you mention any case in which you have [Page 176] +sold hosiery at a profit?-No, except in small orders, or retail +orders from private parties. In such cases, I consider it fair to +charge a small profit on the goods, in order to protect my other +customers who buy largely from me. That is the only case in +which there is any profit. + +7315. Do you purchase worsted to any great extent?-Not worsted, +but wool,-the raw material from the farmers in the district. + +7316. Is that spun and made up by persons employed by you?- +Yes. I do that for the purpose of finding employment for women +who have no way of their own to earn a livelihood. + +7317. Do you use that wool for your own trade, or do you sell it as +worsted to merchants elsewhere?-We cannot get enough of it. It +is entirely for our own trade that it is made up, with very rare +exceptions. + +7318. Do you make up all qualities of it, or is it simply the coarser +kind of wool required for the underclothing department?-The +softest wool is made up for underclothing, and the coarser is made +into tweeds. + +7319. But you do not make any of the finer kinds of worsted for +fancy work?-Nothing, except to a very trifling extent. Our +knitters don't knit that kind of work. + +7320. What is the rate of payment for spinning?-The girls to +whom I sell it, card, spin, and knit it usually. + +7321. Then the entry you showed me was an entry of wools?- +Yes. They would be to sell the worsted once they had spun it, but +they can turn it to more account by knitting. + +7322. There is nobody in your employment merely for spinning?- +I cannot say there is. Occasionally we get a woman to spin for us; +but they don't like to do that, as it is not profitable. + +7323. The way in which you deal with these spinners and knitters +is, that you generally sell the wool to them?-Yes. + +7324. And they bring it, and sell it back to you when made into +articles of hosiery?-Yes. + +7325. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes; some of them have +offered to take the wool, and make it 'halvers.' The practice +among the people themselves is, that a party who has wool gives it +to a neighbour who has none; she knits two pieces of goods, one of +which belongs to the owner of the wool, and the other is kept by +the knitter for her trouble. I objected to that system, because I did +not think it encouraged them to make the most of their material, +and they did not, perhaps, give fair attention to the improvement +the knitting. If they buy 4s. worth of wool, and if girl knits well, +she may turn 10s. or 12s. out of that; in some cases more; so that +there is more encouragement to them by knitting the wool +themselves, than by selling it. + +7326. I suppose you sometimes buy articles which have been made +by knitters with their own wool, spun by themselves, and which +has not originally been purchased from you?-Yes; a great many +of the articles of hosiery are purchased by us in that way. + +7327. On whose property is your shop?-On the Busta estate. + +7328. How long have you held your shop there?-Since 1864,- +seven years. + +7329. Was there a shop in existence at Lochend before you opened +yours?-There had been a shop there for a long time. + +7330. In the same premises?-Yes; but it has been considerably +enlarged. + +7331. Where were you before?-At Ollaberry. I had the business +place there now occupied by Mr. Anderson's firm. + +7332. You left that when they took it into their own hands?-Yes. + +7333. Had you any difficulty in getting a shop in which to carry on +your business in this district cannot say that I had. I was offered +this place by the Busta trustees. It was in a state of dilapidation +when I took it, and they offered it to me on condition that I would +make the necessary repairs on it for myself. + +7334. Was any difficulty stated about giving you the shop on +account of interfering with the business of the other merchants +in the district?-No. + +7335. Do you sometimes buy fish from the fishermen who are +employed by Messrs. Anderson & Co. or by Messrs. Hay & Co.; I +mean odd hauls now and then?-I cannot say that I buy any from +Messrs. Hay Co.'s fishermen, because they would hardly sell to me +on account of the inconvenience. + +7336. But are you aware whether the practice exists of the +fishermen employed by you selling occasionally to the factors of +other merchants, and the fishermen of other merchants selling +occasionally to you or your factors?-I think that practice exists +only to it very small extent. + +7337. But you have detected that practice to certain extent?-I +cannot say that I have; there have been very few fish bought from +such men. + +7338. Was that done because the men did not get cash advances +from the parties for when they fished regularly?-I don't think it +was. I think it was merely done from a notion on the part of the +men. + +7339. Did they get merely the same price which they would have +got from their own employer?-I think they got the same price in +all cases. + +7340. Then why should they not deliver their fish as usual in the +ordinary way?-I cannot say. They perhaps think it is a privilege +to sell to any one who will buy from them-although that is not +the rule. It is understood that they are not at liberty, as a rule, to +do so, but yet they do it, although it has been very rarely in my +experience. + +7341. When they sell their fish in that way, are these transactions +for ready money?-Not always. They may sell them in order to +pay some goods which they have got before. If they were selling +them to me, they might bring them in order to pay some account +which they had at my shop. + +7342. Are there many fishermen dealing at your shop on credit +who fish to other merchants?-Occasionally there are a few. + +7343. You have accounts with them?-Yes; with a few. + +7344. Are these accounts settled annually, at the ordinary settling +time, as a rule; or is there any rule, about the period for +settlement?-There is a rule that they shall settle annually after +the settlement with their own curers, and at that time they usually +bring part of the cash which has been paid to them. + +7345. Do you sometimes find that these accounts are not settled at +that time?-Sometimes I do. + +7346. Are you a loser to any extent by the failure of the fishermen +to settle accounts of that kind?-I consider that I am, in some +cases. + +7347. But these debts sometimes run over a period of years?-In +cases where the parties are poor they do. + +7348. Have there been offers made to you by fishermen who are in +these circumstances, and who are in your debt, to settle their +accounts by engaging to fish for you during the fishing season?- +No; I cannot say that there have been any offers made to me of that +sort. + +7349. You have not taken on a fisherman who was in your debt in +that way?-No. + +7350. Do you not know of any case in which you have taken on a +man who was in your debt, simply with the view of allowing him +to pay it off?-With the fishermen on the Busta estate I have done +so. + +7351. Were these men who had incurred a debt to you while they +were fishing for another merchant?-In one instance that was the +case; but I find, as a rule, that a party who is in debt is not one who +is likely to be ready to offer his services. The fact that he is in +debt is no inducement to make him fish for you, but rather the +contrary. + +7352. Do you think that, as a rule, he will continue to fish for his +former employer?-Yes. + +7353. But the fact probably is, that if he is in debt to you in that +way, he is also in debt to [Page 177] his own employer?-I +believe that is generally the case. + +7354. Have you known any case of a fisherman changing his +employer because he was so deeply in debt to him, that that +employer would not advance him any more goods?-I have in my +own transactions had to refuse advances to a fisherman, because I +knew he was getting into debt deeper than he could pay. I refused +to advance him any longer, and left him at liberty to do the best he +could for himself. + +7355. Did he leave you at the end of the season?-Yes. + +7356. And at the beginning of it new season, did he go to another +employer?-Yes. + +7357. In that case how have you secured your debt?-I gave him +perhaps a year, and then I had to press him for the amount. + +7358. Did you take him to court?-Yes; I took him to court, +because he refused to pay what I believed he was able to pay. + +7359. Have you ever in such a case succeeded in getting any part +of your debt settled by his new employer?-Yes. + +7360. How was that done? Did you, at the beginning of the fishing +season, get the new employer to make an advance to the fisherman +to account of your debt?-In the case I am referring to, the +employer at the end of the fishing season made a payment to me, +as an instalment on the debt. + +7361. Was that done by arrangement with the fisherman?-Yes; +the fisherman went to his new employer and got his line or +security for a part, indeed for the whole amount, to be paid in three +instalments, in three years, because I thought it better to part with +the man when he was getting too deeply into debt, and perhaps the +change in going to another employer would lead him to better +himself. + +7362. Was he likely to better himself in such circumstances?-It +chanced that he got into a good fishing boat, and he did better +himself. + +7363. But that was just a chance, was it not?-Yes, I should think +so. + +7364. Was it the man who wished to go to another employer when +his supplies were stopped by you, or was it you who wished him to +change?-He could not do without advances, and he would not +give me security to cover my risk in giving him any. + +7365. But the new employer, in employing the fisherman, took +exactly the same risk which you refused, and I suppose gave him +supplies?-Not to the same extent. It was only after the man had +been at sea at one season at the fishing for his new employer, and +had earned a fair earning, that he paid me one-third of his account, +and became good for the balance to be paid at the end of the next +two seasons. + +7366. Did that merchant become good for the whole balance of +your account?-I don't know whether it was legally or formally +gone into, but it was understood he would see that the man paid +me. + +7367. Was that a single case, or has it occurred oftener with +you?-That has been the only case in my experience. + +7368. Who was the merchant?-Mr. Greig, the manager for +Messrs. Hay & Co. + +7369. Are you aware whether that case is of ordinary occurrence +in transactions between fish-curers, when fisherman leaves the +employment of one and goes to that of another?-I think it has +been an understood thing among them; at least some time ago, +when I was more in connection with the larger concerns of +Hillswick and Ollaberry, it was understood that when a fisherman +ran away from his responsibility, after getting into debt, his new +employer, if he was taken up by another curer in the district, +would be morally liable to pay the balance for the man, if it was +reasonable. I don't know whether that is the practice now or +not. + +7870. Was there just a general understanding that the new +employer should make some kind of arrangement about it, the +particulars being settled in each case, or was there a rule that he +should become responsible for the whole debt, or for a specific +proportion of the debt?-I think it was understood that it would be +fair for the new employer to become accountable for the whole +debt, if it was reasonable, or for such a proportion of it as he +would undertake to pay for the man. + +7871. Were you in the employment of Mr. Anderson at +Hillswick?-I was a partner in the business at Ollaberry. I was +in the employment of Mr. Gideon Anderson for years before, +and then I was manager at Ollaberry, until I went to Lochend. + +7372. Before you left Ollaberry you had not been in business for +yourself, but you were merely manager for Anderson or Anderson +& Co.?-The firm was Anderson Brothers & Laurenson, and I was +a member of that firm. + +7373. Before you left the firm, did that understanding which +you have described exist among the fishing curers in this +neighbourhood?-Yes. + +7374. In your experience, was it generally acted upon?-I think it +was. I may mention that I did not have to do with the fishermen in +the summer season, while I managed the business at Ollaberry for +seven years. I had only to do with the winter fishing. In the +summer they fished for Hillswick, and I had nothing further than +ordinary transactions with the fishermen then. It was chiefly the +hosiery trade and the winter fishing that I knew about. + +7375. But you were, to some extent, acquainted with the +transactions which took place in the summer fishing?-Yes. + +7376. And in describing this understanding, you are speaking from +your general knowledge of the system pursued?-Yes. + +7377. With what merchants, in this part of Shetland, did that +understanding exist, and was acted upon? Did it extend to Messrs. +Hay at North Roe; you have mentioned an instance in which it was +acted upon with them?-That was in my own experience since. + +7378. But did the understanding extend to them at that time?- +Messrs. Hay & Co. had not a station there then: it was another +firm. + +7379. To whom did that understanding extend?-To Messrs. Adie, +Mr. Inkster at Brae and to the firm of Anderson at Hillswick. + +7380. Did it extend to the Mossbank people?-I cannot say. The +fishermen were not very likely to remove from here to Mossbank, +or from Mossbank to here. + +7381. Did it extend to fishing stations in Yell?-I don't think so. + +7382. Or further south to Reawick?-Not to my knowledge. + +7383. The fishermen, you think, do not move about so far as +that?-No. Perhaps I may be allowed to say with regard to the +special case of a fisherman that I mentioned, that there was no +previous arrangement between Mr. Greig and me about a general +collection of debts from the men. I was merely pressing the debtor +for payment, and Mr. Greig came forward as a friend. + +7384. Do you mean that the understanding or practice which you +have referred to does not exist so far as the Messrs. Hay are +concerned?-There is no such understanding betwixt me and +Messrs. Hay. + +7385. And you have said that you did not refer to them when you +spoke of the practice existing at a former time, when you were in a +different firm?-No; I do not include them. With regard to +another previous statement I wish also to say, that so far from +wishing my customers to get into debt, I have had a notice signed +to the effect that I would not give credit to knitters beyond four +months, and then I reduced it to two months. That shows that it is +against our interest, instead of being for our interest, to let them +get into debt. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ANDREW RATTER, +examined. + +7386. You are a fisherman at North Roe?-I am. + +7387. Are you a tenant of Messrs. Hay there?-Yes. + +[Page 178] + +7388. What balance was paid to you last year at settlement?-£5, +15s. + +7389. Is that about the ordinary sum you have to get in a fair +season?-Yes. + +7390. How much was your account for furnishings for your +family?-Between £3 and £4. + +7391. Is that about an ordinary thing too?-I think some of the +men take more than that. + +7392. Do you generally deal at Messrs. Hay's shop at North Roe +for all the things you want in the way of provisions and +clothing?-Yes. + +7393. Do you deal anywhere else?-Very little. + +7394. Where else: at Lochend?-No; I don't deal at Lochend. + +7395. Do you deal any at Lerwick?-No; I don't deal anywhere to +any great extent except at North Roe. + +7396. Is it usual for the men there to deal chiefly with Messrs. +Hay?-Yes; so far as I know. + +7397. Is there no other shop convenient for them?-Not very +convenient. + +7398. Are the articles you get very satisfactory in quality?-Yes; I +have always found them so. + +7399. What do you pay for your tea?-From 8d. to 10d. a quarter. + +7400. What do you pay for your meal just now?-It varies in price, +according to the seasons. I could not exactly say what the meal is +just now, because I am not buying any at present. The last I +bought was in the summer, when I went to the fishing, and I think +paid 5s. 4d. per lispund of 32 lbs. for it. + +7401. Is it by lispund weight you generally buy it?-It is +sometimes by lispund weight, and sometimes by boll weight. + +7402. What is the price of a boll?-22s. + +7403. Have you ever fished for other fish-curers than Messrs. Hay +& Co.?-Yes; I fished for the late James Peterson at North Roe. +That was before Messrs. Hay got the shop there. + +7404. Since Messrs. Hay have had a place there, have you ever +fished for any other merchants?-No. + +7405. Have you ever sold your fish to other curers?-No. + +7406. Not your small fish?-No. + +7407. Have you never sold a single fish to anybody except Messrs. +Hay & Co.?-I recollect selling perhaps a cwt. or two through the +winter to Mr. Inkster at North Roe. + +7408. Were you paid in cash for them?-Yes. + +7409. Did Mr. Greig find any fault with you for doing so?-No. + +7410. Did he know of it?-Yes; I made no secret of it. I did it +openly. + +7411. Is it understood that you are at liberty to sell your fish in +winter to anybody you like?-No. + +7412. But you sometimes take the liberty of doing it?-Yes. + +7413. Why did you prefer to sell your fish at that time to Mr. +Inkster rather than to Mr. Greig?-I had perhaps a small account +with Inkster at the time and he preferred the fish rather than cash. + +7414. Does he cure fish himself?-Yes; a little. + +7415. Do you go to the Faroe fishing?-No. + +7416. Do you pay your rent to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes. + +7417. Is it settled along with your account with them?-Yes. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JANE HALCROW, +examined. + +7418. You live with your mother near Hillswick?-I do. + +7419. Is she a widow?-Yes. + +7420. Has your mother a piece of land?-Yes. + +7421. How do you work it: do you manage it for her?-No. + +7422. Do you get a man to work it for you?-No, we work it +ourselves. + +7423. Do you live with your mother alone, or is there anybody else +in the house?-There is a servant. + +7424. Is your land on the Busta estate?-Yes. + +7425. Do you do a good deal in knitting?-Not a great deal, but I +do some. + +7426. Where do you sell it?-At different shops; generally at +Hillswick, and sometimes I sell it in Lerwick, and sometimes at +Ollaberry. + +7427. What makes you go to Lerwick and Ollaberry with your +work?-I cannot say. + +7428. Do you just go there when you want to go?-Yes. + +7429. Do you get a better price there for your knitting than you do +at Hillswick?-No; it is just about the same. + +7430. How are you paid for it?-Generally in goods. + +7431. Do you sometimes get a little money?-It is not much +money that I get, but I get stamps when I ask them. + +7432. What do you knit?-Principally ladies' slips or spencers. + +7433. What is the price of them?-From 1s. 6d. to 1s. 8d.: perhaps +we may get as much as 2s. when they are good. + +7434. That is the price of them in goods?-Yes. + +7435. Did you ever sell any of them for all money?-No. + +7436. Why?-I never asked it. + +7437. Would you rather have had money?-Yes; sometimes. + +7438. Then why did you not ask it?-Because I was generally +needing the goods. + +7439. But you said you would sometimes rather have had the +money: why did you not ask it then? Was it because the practice +is not to give money for hosiery?-I suppose it was. + +7440. Did you not ask it because you would not get it?-I knew +that if I had asked it I might have got a little. + +7441. Would you prefer to get some money for your hosiery +whenever you take it to sell?-Yes. + +7442. Do you think you would get less money for it than you get in +goods?-I don't know. + +7443. Who do you sell it to in Lerwick?-Mr. Sinclair. + +7444. Do you keep an account with him?-No. + +7445. Do you keep an account at any of the shops?-Yes; I +sometimes keep an account at Hillswick with Mr. Anderson. + +7446. How often do you settle it?-Sometimes at the end of the +year, and sometimes oftener. + +7447. Is there anything entered in that account as having been sold +by you except hosiery?-No. + +7448. Are there no eggs?-No; we sell eggs, but they are never put +into our account; they are just paid for at the time. + +7449. Do you get money for them?-Yes; if it is asked. + +7450. Do you often ask for money?-Not very often. + +7451. Why do you not ask for it?-Because we are commonly +taking tea. + +7452. Do you want the tea?-Yes. + +7453. How many eggs would you sell in a month in summer? +Three or four dozen?-We might. + +7454. What do you get for the dozen?-6d. + +7455. Do you always take the price of it in tea?-Not always, but +generally. + +7456. Do you ever sell them anywhere else except Hillswick?- +No. + +7457. Are the goods which you get in payment for your hosiery put +on the other side of your account, in order to settle it?-Yes; when +the hosiery is not paid up. + +7458. Do you sometimes get your hosiery paid up at the time?- +Yes, generally. + +7459. But you said you had an account: is that account for goods +supplied to your family?-No; it is sometimes for cotton. + +7460. Is that for your own dress?-Yes. + +[Page 179] + +7461. Is your hosiery always paid for in dresses and clothing for +yourself?-Generally. + +7462. Do you pay your account altogether in hosiery?-Yes. + +7463. You never pay money for what you want?-No. + +7464. Do you deal for cotton and dresses anywhere else than at +Hillswick?-No. + +7465. Do you got these things as good and as cheap there as you +could get them elsewhere?-I suppose I do. + +7466. Have you never tried them elsewhere?-Yes; I have got +them in Lerwick from Mr Sinclair. + +7467. Were the goods you got there of the same quality, or were +they better or worse than at Mr. Anderson's?-They were just +about the same, I suppose. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, Rev. JAMES R. +SUTHERLAND, examined. + +7468. You are the minister of the parish of Northmaven?-I am. + +7469. How long have you been so?-Since November 1848. + +7470. You are, I presume, intimately acquainted with the condition +of the people in your parish?-Perfectly so-as much as any +minister can be. + +7471. And you know the system which prevails, and which has +been described in the evidence yesterday and to-day, with regard +to the payment for fish in account with the fish-curer, and also +with regard to hosiery?-Yes; I am acquainted with that generally. + +7472. You have not been cited to attend here to-day?-No. + +7473. But I understand you are willing and desirous to make some +statement with regard to the effects of that system upon the habits +of the people?-I am perfectly willing. + +7474. Do you think the system of long payments which exists here +is a wholesome one as regards the habits of the fishermen?-I +think it is most ruinous. I think I have had very good opportunities +of judging of the effect of the system upon the people, being +intimately acquainted with them, and having received the +statements in private of a great many of them; and I cannot +conceive any system which could be more ruinous in a moral +point of view, apart altogether from its effect upon them in a +pecuniary way. In my opinion, the independence of the people is +wholly destroyed. There is scarcely a man I know, with very few +exceptions, who is not in terror, and terror that I could scarcely +describe, of the merchant to whom he is indebted, and I believe +that three-fourths of the whole of my parishioners are in debt to +some merchant or other, and thoroughly under their control. + +7475. What is your ground for saying that so many your own +parishioners are in debt?-I know it from their own lips. + +7476. Do you speak of the present time?-Yes, of the present +time. There are a few exceptions to that, some of which I could +point out, but not many. + +7477. Do you consider that the state of indebtedness is greater at +the present time, or less, than it has been generally throughout your +experience in the parish?-I don't see any improvement in that +respect, taking the whole population. There might be one here and +one there who have got free of debt this year, because it has been +an exceptionally good year in cattle; but, taking them as the same +state of serfdom as they were twenty-three years ago, when I came +here. + +7478. Your ground for that statement, I understand, is the +information you have received from the people themselves?-Yes. + +7479. Do you think the people generally who make these +statements to you are to be relied upon?-Generally, I think so, +because I am exceedingly well acquainted with many of their +circumstances, and I know those who are comparatively +independent. I speak only of that independence which we might +expect from such it population. There are many of them who are +in a position which we would call pretty comfortable. I know that +from having the management of their affairs privately; but I don't +believe that, for the last fifteen or twenty years, the people who are +in such circumstances have increased in number, or have increased +the amount of the savings which are at their credit in places that I +know. + +7480. That statement you have now made refers to the better-off +class among them?-Yes; to the better-off class, but they are very +few compared with the rest. + +7481. You think those who are not so well off may be two-thirds +or three-fourths of your parishioners?-I may say that there are +three-fourths of them who are not in these comfortable +circumstances. + +7482. With regard to the larger portion of your parishioners who +are indebted, your information is derived from their own +statements, and you say that you think generally these statements +are reliable?-Perfectly so; at least as much so as such statements +can be expected to be; but I have my information from other +sources than the people themselves. I have it from those who are +above them in station, and who know their circumstances as well +as I know them myself. + +7483. I suppose a man comes to you as a clergyman, and as one +who is likely to sympathize with him when he is in difficulty about +his affairs?-Yes. + +7484. Has that often happened in your experience?-Yes; and in +such cases this is what I do-Generally there are two or three +elders in the parish, who are very respectable and very +independent, and I privately consult these men as to whether the +statements which have been made to me by the people are true. I +have found that I have been oftener deceived in thinking that a +man had something saved, when he had nothing, than the other +way. + +7485. It was stated, I think, in the evidence previously given, that +many Shetland people are pretty well off, and have accounts in the +bank, although they don't look as if they were worth anything, and +pretend that they have nothing, being afraid to let it be known that +they have money; and a story has been told of a man begging hard +to borrow money with which to buy a cow, and going to his +minister for the money: are you acquainted with that story?-I am +acquainted with the story. I believe it has been attributed to me; it +did not happen with me, but the minister with whom it happened +told me about it in his own house. I was there when the thing took +place. + +7486. Does that story not lead to a suspicion that the complaints +which are often made to you, and which you say are the grounds +upon which you have arrived at the conclusion you have stated as +to the circumstances of a large proportion of your parishioners, +may be somewhat exaggerated by the parties?-No. That case +occurred in a parish containing between 900 and 1000 people, and +it was only a single case out of that population. It was the only +case which the parish minister, who is still alive, was able to tell +me had ever happened to him. One case out of nearly 1000 people +is not many, but I do know cases something like that. I know +people who have some pounds laid by in certain places, and they +come to me by stealth to get me to transact business on their +account with regard to these small sums. And why do they do that +by stealth? It is for fear of the merchant and for fear of the laird. + +7487. Why is a man who has a little money by him afraid of the +merchant and of the laird?-That is just one of the evils of this +truck system, and this system of not dealing in ready money on all +occasions. I don't speak in favour of the population generally, +more than I would do in favour of the merchant, or of the heritor, +were it not for the truth. That is one of the consequences of the +system, and to that extent I think it is very demoralizing. + +7488. You think it is demoralizing that the system [Page 180] +should lead a man to conceal the amount of his means in the way +you have related?-Yes; and it leads to more than that. + +7489. Do you think that arises from the system of payment in +goods, and the system of running accounts?-Exactly. + +7490. How is it the result of that system?-My opinion is, that +with the merchant and such men, it is a case of diamond cut +diamond. The fisherman who has an account with the merchant +imagines that the merchant is taking an undue profit, and that it is +from him, and therefore he sets himself to do everything he can +against the merchant. I don't approve of the way in which the men +act in order to counteract the merchant; but that is an effect of the +system, because the man believes that the merchant is taking too +large profit from him, and using him otherwise not in proper way. + +7491. Is it a general impression among the people with whom you +come in contact, that the merchant has too large profits?-I will +give you an illustration, and that will serve for the whole. There +was a gentleman examined to-day to whose evidence I listened +with great pleasure, Mr. Morgan Laurenson. I do not mean that +what I am now to state should tell against him, but it is rather in +his favour; at least so far as I am to use it. At the time he left +Ollaberry, there were very considerable sums of money due +to him, certainly much more than I would have entrusted to a +population such as the general Shetland population. He had to +leave rather more suddenly than he expected, and he had not time +to collect his debts. A man from Ollaberry came over to me, and +I said, 'Are you sorry that Mr. Laurenson is going away from +you?'-He said no. I asked if it was true that the people about +Ollaberry were due him several hundreds of pounds?-He said, +'No; not we. He has had plenty out of us, he has had his profits +which might make up for all that.' I said, ' Then you are not +sorry?' and he said, 'I am not sorry for it at all.' That is just a +consequence of that sort of dealing. + +7492. Was that man a type of the ordinary Shetlander?-Yes. +What he said to me was an instance of what results from this mode +of proceeding, and I give it as an illustration. + +7493. Was he not an unusual kind of man who said that?-No; his +opinions are those which are privately held by nine-tenths of the +whole population of Shetland. + +7494. Do they tell you so?-Yes, they tell me so, and I know their +sentiments quite well upon the subject. + +7495. But Mr. Laurenson was only a partner of the firm, and the +whole of these debts would not be due to him individually?-I +understood he had certain debts that were due to himself, such as +for hosiery; at any rate it was in his name that the thing was stated. + +7496. You think therefore that the system leads to species of +suspicion and a tendency to deceive?-Yes, and if you will allow +me, I will give you another illustration. There was a poor sailor +lad who died it few years ago, and a sum of about £5 or £6 was +sent through by the Board of Trade as having belonged to him. +The Board of Trade, for reasons which they are not ashamed to +own, take very good care about the payments that they shall be +made generally through the minister of the parish. This poor lad +had left a widowed father at home in this parish with a number of +children exceedingly helpless. I am not sure but that the father +was on the Parochial Board; if he was not, I think he ought to have +been, but I think he was. When the news came that his boy had +been drowned, the man came to me a distance of eight miles to +consult me, and he was very anxious about the way in which he +was to get the money through the Board of Trade. His great care +was that the merchant should not know anything about it, and +for that purpose he came to me in the dark. He had a little boy, +perhaps ten or twelve years old, whom he sent over after the +arrival of every post, but always in the dark. The boy had come so +far, that I asked him where he had come from. He told me where +he lived, so many miles distant, but he said he had been told not to +come until it was dark. I asked him why. He said, 'Because they +would know of it in the shop.' At last the man came over himself +in order to sign the documents, and he told me that the merchant +had already been at him to give him the money. Now a system +which produces such a mode of cheating one another must be +immoral. + +7497. But I suppose the merchant was entitled to be paid for his +debt?-I'm only giving that as an illustration showing how +destructive the system is to the morality of the common people, +and I have only brought in the merchant because I could not give +the illustration without mentioning him. + +7498. But you are speaking rather against the people at present +than against the merchant?-I am to tell the truth whatever will be +its effects. + +7499. Did you advise the man not to pay the merchant?-I had +nothing to do with advising him. I gave him no advice whatever; it +was not part of my duty. I was merely employed by the Board of +Trade to hand over the money to him, and I did no more in the way +of advising him what to do with it than the Board of Trade would +have done. If he had asked me whether he should pay his debts, I +would have told him that every man should pay his debts. + +7500. But did you advise him not to pay the merchant?-I did no +such thing. + +7501. You left him to do as he liked with regard to that?- +Distinctly. + +7502. Did you know anything about the nature of the account +which the merchant had against him?-Nothing whatever. + +7503. Did you know that the account was due by him to the +merchant?-He told me he was afraid of the merchant which led +me to conclude at once that he had an account with him, but I +knew nothing more about it than that. + +7504. You only inferred that he might have an account, and you +did not inquire further?-Quite so. + +7505. Are you quite sure about that?-Perfectly sure. I knew +nothing about the nature of the account, or the amount of the +account, or what it was for, or anything about it. + +7506. How long is it since that case happened?-It may have been +three or four years ago, I cannot be sure of the time. + +7507. Do you say that in that case the account was paid?-I don't +know anything about that. The man only told me afterwards that +the merchant made him give it up. I knew nothing further about it +than that. + +7508. You heard the evidence or the witnesses who were +examined yesterday?-I did. + +7509. Do you think that, generally speaking, they gave a correct +description of their circumstances, and of the system on which +they carry on their dealings?-My opinion is that generally they +did not. From their private statements to me, it was my opinion-I +only hold it as an opinion-that they, under terror and under +influence, did not give the statements here which they ought to +have given, and which they had given to me in private. + +7510. That is only an opinion which you have formed from your +experience of the statements of the people generally?-Yes; and +from conversations which I have had with these witnesses. + +7511. One of the witnesses, Mrs. Hughson, was examined with +regard to statements made by her on a different occasion, and +which were rather different from the statements she made here: did +she make any different statement to you at any time from what she +made here yesterday?-Unless compelled, I would decline to say +anything that would criminate myself or her; but give it as my +opinion generally that the witnesses, without naming any of them, +gave a statement which I won't call untruthful, but which I say was +not at statement in accordance with what my convictions are that +they should have given, and I know the reason why. + +7512. We don't in courts of law take a general [Page 181] +statement of that kind in contradiction of the veracity of witnesses. +It is only a matter of opinion; and although in this inquiry the legal +rules of evidence have not been so very strictly observed as in +courts of law, yet I think it is right to ask you whether on any +occasion Mrs. Hughson made a different statement to you than that +she made here?-With all respect to you and the office you hold, I +must decline to answer that question, because I consider it is a +question that might lead to consequences that I am not at all +disposed for the general good to be subjected to. You asked me +the question whether I approved generally of the evidence, and I +said no, I did not, but I declined to particularise any individual +person. But I will give you an illustration of the terror that is over +the people, and I won't say that that woman is not included among +those that are under that influence. I put a question to one man +concerning a very important matter in relation to what I am to +state to-day, and when I asked him to answer that question, the +woman of the house, a married woman, seized me by the arms and +exclaimed, 'Will that give offence to the merchant?-If it gives +offence to the merchant, then we won't open our mouths.' That +occurred only within the last ten days, and the same dread and +terror are over the whole community around Hillswick with very +few exceptions. + +7513. What induces you to think that?-It is because they are all in +debt to the shop, less or more. + +7514. If you were told that these men were not in debt, or that the +majority of them were not in debt, which may perhaps be proved +in this inquiry before it is finished, to what would you attribute +that terror then?-I cannot be told that; it cannot be proved against +the facts that I know with regard to the people. + +7515. I am not saying anything about the facts, but I am merely +supposing the case that it is proved that the majority of the people +are not so much in debt as you say: how then would you account +for that terror?-I would say that if they were not very much in +debt, then that feeling would not exist. There would then be a very +different feeling among the people. + +7516. May it be the case that that feeling arises from the certainty +in the minds of these people that in the future they may yet +require to run into debt to the merchant as they have done in the +past?-There is no doubt that to a certain extent that feeling +would operate, and they know, or at least they fear, and they have +stated so to me that the moment they said anything that would give +offence to the merchant, their credit would be stopped at once. + +7517. Has the number of shops which exist in the district anything +to do with that feeling?-How many shops are there, may I ask? + +7518. That is what I want you to tell me. Do you think that if the +shops were multiplied, and credit to be obtained at a greater +number of shops that feeling would not exist to the same extent?- +I would not be in favour of a multiplication of shops for the +purpose of getting them the means of credit. I would be in favour +of having free trade and giving no credit at all. If the number of +shops were multiplied in the way of free trade, then a wholesome +competition would be introduced, which I think would be an +advantage. But you asked me a question about how many shops +there are. Beginning at this part of the district, there is one at +Hillswick, and then there is one at Brae, and another at Olnafirth. + +7519. Is there a shop at Brae?-Yes; a very considerable place of +business, one of the best in the country. Any other shops that may +exist in the district are commonly called peerie (<i.e.> small) +shops. They are very poor lads who have them, and what is more, +they are generally selling to one or other of these three big shops. + +7520. What do they sell to the large shops?-If I were one of the +large shopkeepers, I would get a lad to open up a shop here and +take fish for me or to sell to me, and I would send him down +goods. The lad is apparently the merchant himself, but in reality +he is selling for another. + +7521. Do you know any case of that sort?-Yes; I have known it +all my life. + +7522. Do you know the individuals who are so connected with the +larger shops?-Yes. If I go west to Stenness I find a man selling +there, and if I ask him who he is selling for, he says, 'I am not the +merchant, I am selling for so and so.' I go to another one who is +apparently selling for himself, whereas it is well known that in +reality he is not selling for himself, but for another party. It is no +benefit for the population to have shops of that kind among them, +because there is no competition at all. + +7523. Do they all sell for the larger merchants?-Yes; they are just +their menials or servants. I saw one of them examined yesterday. + +7524. Do you know whether, in consequence of the cash payments +here, tea or other goods pass from hand to hand among the people +instead of money?-I am not aware of that. I only know about the +purchases from the shops. I do not know what the people do with +the articles after they get them. + +7525. Is there any other way in which you think the present system +is injurious, or any other point on which you desire to make any +statement?-Besides being injurious in a moral point of view, the +system is also injurious by leading the husband and wife to have +separate accounts and separate transactions, and the children too. +The house, instead of being united, is in reality divided against +itself. Every member of the family has a separate interest; in that +way mutual dependence is destroyed, and that affection which +ought to subsist between children and parents has in a great +measure disappeared from Shetland. A boy gets an account of his +own when he is a mere child, or at least in boyhood, and as he +grows up he thinks he has only himself to provide for. He has not +that dependence or respect or affection for his parents which will +lead him, when old age comes to them, to provide for them. I +don't know any more prejudicial effect that any system can have +upon the community than to see the rising generation growing up +and their fathers neglected and despised, as they are in many cases +here. That feeling is produced very much among the young people +by the nature of their early training. + +7526. Do you find that the parents are generally neglected by their +children, and that there is a difficulty in enforcing their obligation +to aliment their parents?-Yes; I find that very much, and any one +who is connected with the country must see it as well. + +7527. Have you found that in the course of your ordinary +ministerial experience, or as a member of the Parochial Board?- +I have not been at the Parochial Board for years, but I am well +acquainted with the state of the poor who are on the roll. I will +give a case which occurred in this neighbourhood as an illustration +of what I mean. There was a woman who was on the Parochial +Board; she belonged originally to a very decent and respectable +family; her father was a small proprietor, but in the course of her +life she became very poor, and I am not sure that she was not +sometimes half demented. She had, I believe, three daughters in +this parish, they are still in the parish, grown up, and two of them I +think are mothers of families. None of them attended to their +mother, and she had to be taken by the Parochial Board and +boarded with the mother of the girl who was examined before me. +She was kept there, and she died there, and not one of her three +daughters who lived in the same parish ever came to the house +where she was lying to ask how their mother was. She died and +was buried, and not one of them came to look upon her face in the +coffin or at her grave. + +7528. How far were the houses of those daughters from the place +where their mother lived?-I cannot tell exactly where they lived. +I think one of them lived about half-way between this and +Lochend, about six or seven miles from the place; another lived +near North Roe. I cannot be sure where the third one lived; but the +fact I have stated is one which is well known in the district. + +7529. To what do you attribute that heartlessness [Page 182] on +the part of the daughters?-I consider it arose from their early +training produced by the system of credit. + +7530. Is it not usually the case among the labouring classes, that +the children of a family, the daughters and the sons as well, are +virtually independent as soon as they begin to work for +themselves?-Where? + +7531. In the agricultural districts of Scotland for instance?-No; +they are different altogether. I know about the agricultural +districts very well, and the children there, when they grow up and +go to service, the boys to herd cattle and the girls to be servants, +are away for half a year, and then they come home to school But +in this country, if a boy came home and went to school, he would +have to pay for himself. I was once a schoolmaster in one of the +agricultural districts for about four years, and, so far as I know, the +children there when they came home were not made to pay for +their own schooling or for their maintenance, but they just entered +into the family again the same as they were before they went out. +They would be away for perhaps half a year, and then they came +back again, not to lounge about idle, but to be with their parents +and to cherish and nourish them. That was the result of my four +years' experience of teaching in a large parochial establishment. + +7532. What becomes of the earnings of the children in these +agricultural districts? Are they not at liberty to do with their +earnings as they please?-Certainly; and there is no doubt they +expend them upon clothing and things of that kind, just as they +require them. + +7533. And just as they do here?-No; it is very different here. +They have all got accounts here, and these boys are all in debt. I +have seldom met with a boy at the beach who was not in debt at +the end of the service When I asked a boy what was the state of +matters with him, he generally told me that he was due something +to the merchant, but no such thing can take place with the children +in the south. They get no credit, no books, no accounts. + +7534. We had at specimen of that yesterday where a man told us +he had been a boy at the beach, and that he had incurred debt +while he was very young?-Yes; and it is impossible that it could +be otherwise. Look at the little fee they get. They have to +maintain themselves, and I would like to know how they can do +that without being in debt. + +7535. Do you think that sufficiently accounts for instances of +heartlessness such as you have mentioned just now? Might such +things not happen in any district with particular individuals?-It +might happen to a certain extent, but not so generally as it does +here. + +7536. Do you say that the instance you have mentioned is only one +of many instances of similar conduct?-It is only one of many that +could be produced. + +7537. Is there any other point to which you wish to speak?-Yes. +I may say that I have read over carefully the evidence that was +taken in Edinburgh, and that I concur entirely with the evidence +given there by Mr. George Smith, Mr. John Walker, and Mr. +Edmonstone of Buness. If there is any part of that evidence with +which I don't agree, it is very trifling indeed. In Mr. Walker's +evidence, this question was put to him:-' 44,368. But the greater +portion of that is not paid in coin?' I want to qualify the answer +which he made to that question. I think there has been a mistake +of the printer there, and perhaps the next sentence qualifies it. If +the next sentence is a qualification, then I agree with the whole of +the answer, so far as my knowledge goes of the country. The +question and the answer read thus:-'But the greater portion of +that is not paid in coin?-Not a fraction of it.' I would not go so +far as to say that not a fraction of it is paid in coin; but the next +sentence is, 'If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it +is an extraordinary thing;' and if that is taken as a qualification of +the first part of the answer, then I agree with it entirely, as well as +with the rest of Mr. Walker's evidence. + +7538. Do you agree with this statement in answer to question +44,364: 'The eggs are the woman's part, she looks after the eggs +and butter, and considers them her peculiar share'?-I concur with +that entirely. + +7539. Do you know whether it is the practice of the district that the +woman generally has a separate account for the butter and eggs?- +That is the case, so far as I know. + +7540. Does she take the proceeds of the eggs and butter?-Yes. I +sometimes met a little girl going along to the shop with some eggs, +and she would tell me that she was going to the shop with them. I +would meet her again coming back, and among other things she +would have a little bag with her in which there would be some +hard biscuits and tea. That would be what she was carrying back +in exchange for the eggs. + +7541. But these goods would go into the common stock for the +maintenance of the family?-Yes; but I am told by the people that +these articles do not form part of the husband's account. + +7542. Still it does not make any separation between the interests of +the husband and wife if the proceeds of the butter and eggs go for +the maintenance of the family, just as the husband's earnings +do?-But there is a separation, and I will give an illustration of it. +Suppose a husband had to go to church with a dirty shirt, and he +would say to his wife, 'You might have had a clean shirt for me +to-day, my dear, to go to church with;' and she would reply, 'My +butter and my eggs were not sufficient to get soap and soda; and +therefore you must go to church with the shirt you have on,' that +shows a separate interest between them. I give that, not as an +actual case, but as a supposition which, sufficiently answers your +question, and I think it goes to show a separate interest. + +7543. Is there any other point to which you refer?-Yes. Mr. +Smith says, in his evidence, that barter is hurtful to the +independence of the people very much; with that I entirely +agree. He says again, 'It destroys the independence of the +people very much; they get careless.' I entirely agree with that +else and can give illustrations of it. The next question is 'Does it +encourage extravagance?-I should think it does, very much; they +don't know the value of money.' There never was greater truth +written than that, and Mr. Smith deserves great credit for stating it. + +7544. Can you give me any illustration of that?-I know a case +where a poor man and his family came in and took possession of +from £70 to £90-I don't know the exact sum by the death of a +brother. They got a book in the shop; the money never came into +their hands at all, but so long as it lasted the book ran on, and I +don't believe it was twelve months when the whole was exhausted, +and they were in misery. That showed that they did not know the +value of money. I will give another illustration which is worse +than that. Another man came into possession of £230 or by the +death of a relative in England. He got the money into his hands, +and came to consult me as to what he should do with it. I said, +'When you have got so much money, you should lay it out and get +5 per cent. for it; and if you get that, then the interest will pay the +rent of your land, and with your own labour and that of your wife +and daughters, you may keep the amount all the days of your life, +and you can hand down the £230 to your children.' He said, 'I am +determined to do everything you have advised, and that money +shall go down to my children, so far as I am concerned.' Twelve +months had not passed over when that man had to be rouped out, +and left the neighbourhood without any means; which proves what +Mr. Smith said, that they don't know the value of money. + +7545. How did that man spend it?-I don't know, but it was all +gone. + +7546. Do you find that the women dress more expensively here +than they do in other places?-I think very much more so. + +7547. Do you think that a woman who knits, and who has a +separate account of her own in the women's book, is induced to +spend more of her earnings on dress than she would otherwise +do?-Yes; arising from the fact that, to a great extent at least, +they can only get clothing for their knitting. + +7548. It is quite true that in Lerwick only soft [Page 183] goods +are given for knitting; but in this district there is a difference, and +provisions are also given in exchange for it?-There may be a +little provisions given but I can assure you, from my knowledge of +the people, that that is not a general thing. It is in cottons and soft +goods generally that the hosiery is paid for. + +7549. But do the women dress more expensively than they need to +do?-I think so; and they are influenced to do that by the way in +which the system is carried on. There are things kept in the shops +to catch their fancy, and when they take their knitting in they are +shown some dresses, and they fix upon one. They have already +told you that they get no money; and they have told me that they +can get no money although they were to ask for it. Now, a girl in +the south may dress very well, and servants there do dress very +respectably; but I know servants in the south who don't make +more money in the course of a year than a woman makes here by +knitting, and yet they have considerable sums the bank, while that +is not the case here. + +7550. You say the women go into the shops, and are induced to +buy by having goods exposed to them in that way: how do you +know that?-I know it by them telling me how they get them, both +here and at Lerwick. + +7551. Have you asked them how they happened to have so many +fine dresses?-I asked a man, who had a very industrious family of +daughters, where they got this fine thing and the next fine thing, +and he told me. + +7552. You are now speaking of a particular case?-Yes. He said +they are very industrious, and when they have got a certain +quantity of work done they go to Lerwick with it; and they go +into this shop and see this fine thing, and go into the next shop +and see the next fine thing. I said, 'Do they get any money?' and +he said, 'Not one single farthing.' When I asked him why, he said: +'I don't know; but they want it, and I have to give them money to +take them into Lerwick.' + +7553. You were speaking of a system of terrorism which prevails, +or is alleged to prevail, here: if that terrorism exists, how do you +account for witnesses coming forward and speaking at all?-But +what have they said? + +7554. We had two or three men who were not cited?-I saw one +man here who was not by any means a representative of the +ordinary tenants. He was not a representative of the class among +whom he lives. + +7555. Have you seen many fishermen here during the last day or +two?-Not very many. + +7556. I have been a little at it loss myself to know why fewer +people have appeared here than at other places with even less +population. Can you give me any explanation of it?-They told +me beforehand that they dursn't come, and that they would not +come; and I will give you an illustration. I went into the house of +a man who had been complaining to me about his debts at the +shops, and about the misery he was in; and when I got the notice to +see what witnesses would come forward and give evidence, I said +to myself, 'This man who has complained so much to me will +surely come forward.' I went to him, and in presence of his family +I asked whether he would give evidence before you. I did not tell +him to do so, but said, 'If you are willing now to state your +grievances, you have an opportunity of doing so.' The man stood +up and trembled, and said, ''Mr. Sutherland, it is the truth that you +have said! It is the truth that we are crushed; but I am in such a +position with the merchant that I dare not do it.' I went to another +man, and said, 'You have been crying about your miseries: will +you come forward and state them now?' He said, 'Yes, I will +come forward and state them.' I said, 'You are not in debt, are +you?'-'Yes, I am in debt.' 'How much are you in debt?' 'I am in +debt £13 down at the shop;' and this man had not thirteen placks. +Then, to show that what Mr. Smith said about the system +destroying their idea of the value of money was true, I turned to +the wife and said, 'Have you £13 of debt?-and she said, 'Is that +all?-that's nothing.' I mention that to show the woman's +appreciation of the value of debt. + +7557. Is that the way in which you account for the small +attendance on this occasion on the part of the fishermen, and +their apparent want of interest in it?-Yes; I attribute it to that +wholly and to nothing else. + +7558. I must say that although the meeting here has been intimated +throughout the parish, yet I believe it has been somewhat less +extensively intimated, in consequence of the distance of the place +from Lerwick, than it would otherwise have been. Is not that +sufficient to account for the absence of the men?-No; there have +been people here from North Roe, and from Stenness, and from +Ollaberry. + +7559. But these were cited?-They may have been, but all the +people knew about it quite well. Again, I sent for three or four +parties who lived not two miles from the schoolhouse, and had +them over with me, and said, 'You have complained bitterly about +your condition before: will you come now and give information +about it?' They said, 'We will do it;' but two or three days +afterwards one of them came back and said he would not do it, +as it would just make their case worse. + +7560. I believe you have taken a great interest in this matter +yourself?-I have only taken an interest in it for the welfare of the +poor people of this country. + +7561. But you have long held strong opinions as to the distress +prevailing in Shetland?-I have; and when an opportunity was +given to me, I have always condemned the system which existed. + +7562. When you received the circular from me, which was sent to +all the merchants and clergymen throughout the country, you +replied that you were willing to come forward as a witness, and +you sent me a list of witnesses?-I did. + +7563. Since then you have been taking some trouble in the matter, +and have been speaking to people about coming forward and +giving evidence?-Yes; and I did everything I could to get them to +come forward. All I wanted was to get them to come here and tell +the truth, whatever it might be. If you will allow me will give +another illustration of the terrorism which exists. If I buy corn or +straw from any person in this neighbourhood for my horse or my +cows, I would only get it delivered to me in the dark, because the +people are afraid the merchants would know about it. I always get +it in the dark, and I pay down the money for it at once. + +7564. Do you swear that you never got corn delivered to you +except in the dark which you have purchased for your horse and +cows?-I have sworn already to the fact. There is no person in +Hillswick who will sell corn and bring it to me except in the dark. +If the people live at a distance, then it is different. There is a man +who lives outside the dyke at Hillswick, Harry Gilbertson, who has +a little straw, and he will sometimes bring some of it to me, but he +is not one of the persons to whom I am referring. It is those living +within the dyke of Hillswick who would not bring corn to me +except in the dark. + +7565. Are your dealings in corn numerous?-Not very numerous; +but some years there is a good deal of it. + +7566. Have you to buy the corn you require in small quantities?-I +cannot get it except in small quantities; just what the people can +spare to me. + +7567. You have given me in private the name of one party who +sold corn to you and delivered it in the dark?-Yes; and there are +many others. + +7568. Do you deal, or have you dealt, with any of the shops in this +neighbourhood?-For many years I have not dealt with any of +them, except when I happened to be out of goods. I get my goods +twice a-year from the south, but when I am out of any particular +article I purchase it here. + +7569. Is it a common practice with the families of clergymen and +others in the same position in Shetland to get their supplies from +the south?-So far as I know, it is. + +[Page 184] + +7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; they +are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for them. + +7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of your +fellow-clergymen?-I don't know, but they have often spoken +about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might be +expected, inferior in quality, to the goods I would like. I don't +blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality, +because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying +them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here in +consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge +upon their goods. + +7572. In speaking of the apprehension which exists in the district, I +understand you to refer merely to the state of mind of the people +with whom you have come in contact. You don't know of +anything on the part of the merchants which justifies that +apprehension?-I don't want to go into that. I only say that +that feeling is produced among the people by the state of their +accounts, and by the fact that they are in debt to the merchant. I +don't know that the merchant does anything to produce it. I am +not accusing him at all. + +7573. You are not accusing him of actively bringing about that +state of terror?-No; I only say it is the system which brings it +about. I don't refer to any one merchant more than another; it is +the system I object to. + +7574. Are you aware whether legal proceedings are frequent in +cases where people are in debt to the merchants?-I have known +several cases of that kind. + +7575. Are they frequent in proportion to the indebtedness of the +people?-I don't think that, taking the whole accounts that are due +they are so frequent or half so frequent as they would require to be, +in order to correct this evil. + +7576. You think that, if decree was taken oftener against people +who are in debt, the thing would be little mended?-I think it +would tend that way; at least it would be the beginning of the end +of it. + +7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their +customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are +explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I +condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it +on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than +what I find around me, but the system would make them what they +are on both sides. + +7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the +merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small +accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I +was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I +was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything +to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were +conducted in this part of the country. + +7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants, +we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a +debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising +him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He +was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I +heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to +give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to +defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their +circumstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask +him what they should do, but I refused to interfere. + +7580. Have you had any dealings with men with regard to +payments from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, or any +society of that kind?-I know something about that. In one +case, I remember, there was a considerable loss at sea; more +than one boat was wrecked, and a great many men perished, +and there was a great deal of sympathy excited in the south. + +7581. When was that?-It was a good many years ago-about the +time I came here, or a little after. A great deal of sympathy was +excited in the south, as is generally the case, and a considerable +amount of money was collected for the widows and orphans, and +handed over to the merchant who was principally concerned in the +fishery. One of the widows lived beside a minister to whom she +came and complained about the way in which the money was dealt +with. The people knew the amount which had been collected, and +her share was £6 odds. The minister wrote to the merchant whose +boats had been lost, saying that the widow was dying for want, and +asking whether he would send her her share of the money that had +been collected I believe the answer he got back from the merchant +was, 'The first time you come near this, come in and I shall show +you the £6 odds marked to her late husband's credit.' Is it for that +purpose that charity is given in the south? + +7582. Do you think that was a misappropriation the money, or +was it not a legal right of the merchant that he should have his +debt paid?-That, I suppose would depend upon the purpose for +which the subscription was made. The money was collected by +the benevolent in the south for the purpose of aiding the widows +and children of the men who had been lost, and not to be paid in +liquidation of the merchant's account due by the dead husband. + +7583. That might raise a nice legal question?-It might; but I want +this to go out to the world, so that the eyes of the people in the +south may be opened to how their charity is applied: I can give +more cases the same kind. + +7584. That was not a case where the money came from the +Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-No; it was a private +subscription. I knew another case where several boats were +lost, and where very great sympathy, as in the first case, was +excited, and a considerable sum of money was collected. As it +happens, the money fell into the hands of the merchant who had +owned the boats. It was distributed according to the judgment of +the merchant and of the clergyman, but the clergyman was never +consulted about the distribution or allocation of a single penny, +and, so far as he was ever able to find out., it was kept in the shop. +That is case which I know about, because I was the clergyman. + +7585. How long ago was that?-I have noted it being in 1849. My +own contribution to the fund was one guinea; and I ask, is it for +this that the benevolent are to give their contributions for +Shetland? + +7586. Perhaps the benevolent might be of opinion that the fairest +way of doing would be to pay the debts of the deceased, if the +widows and children were liable for them?-I am not speaking of +the legality of the thing, or how the case might stand in law, but I +am speaking of the purpose for which I gave my contribution of +one guinea; and I know that I would not have given one farthing +for such a purpose as that money was applied to. + +7587. A subscription of that kind might be regarded as an +alimentary debt, not attachable by creditors?-That is my +opinion. Another case happened, in which a contribution was +made in favour of a very old man, to whose house an accident had +happened. £3, 10s. was contributed for that man, to which I gave +10s.; and I was always hearing that that sum had not been applied +in the way in which I at least had intended that it should be; but in +case they might have been telling me what was not true, I went to +the man in order to be sure that anything I might state here was +quite correct. + +7588. How long was that after the subscription had been +collected?-It is perhaps two or three years since it was collected, +but it is only a week ago since I went to the man. + +7589. Did you go to him with a view to this inquiry?-It was after +I got the notice that the meetings were to be held that I went to +him. I went in to the man and said, 'John, did you ever get any of +that money?'-He stood up and said, 'I went and said that I was +starving and had nothing to eat, and I got one lispund of meal and +two ounces of tea, and that is all the reckoning I ever got for it.' + +7590. Who collected the money in that case?-My money was +paid to the merchant at Hillswick. + +[Page 185] + +7591. Do you mean Mr. Anderson?-It was given over to that +establishment, I know. I said, 'Is that all you have got, John?' +'Yes.' 'And where did the money go?' 'The money went to the +credit of my son-in-law, Andrew Thomason.' + +7592. Was Andrew Thomason supporting the old man at that +time?-The old man is on the Parochial Board now; but +Thomason himself had been in the utmost misery for at least a +couple of years. + +7593. Did you say anything to the son-in-law about that?-He was +the first person I met when I went to see the old man; and when I +met him, I said, 'What was done with the £3, 10s.?' or whatever +was the amount. He said he could not say. I said, 'Did John get +the money?' He replied, 'Oh, yes; surely he did.' I said, 'Will you +swear that?' and he said, 'Oh, swearing is a different thing.' I then +told him I must see John; but he said, 'You cannot see him; he is +in such a state without clothes that he is not fit to be seen,' and he +ran off to John; but I was as able to run as he was, and I was in and +had a hold of John's hand before the son-in-law could get a hold of +him. It was the wife of that man Thomason who, as I mentioned, +seized me by the arm, and said, 'Oh, sir, will that give offence to +the merchant.' + +7594. Where do these persons live?-At Hillswick. + +7595. Is the old man able to come here to be examined?-He is 85 +years of age, and I don't believe he would be able. + +7596. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I have noted a case +in connection with the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society which I +may be allowed to give. A man here had a boat which was either +wrecked or broken, or so destroyed as to be useless. He had paid +into the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society for three years, and he +applied to the agent here to get his proportion of what was to be +given for the boat. The man's statement to me was, that for a +while he asked whether he had anything to get from the Society, +either to procure a new boat or to repair the old one. He was told +that he had 30s. to get; but the merchant, who was also the agent, +said to him, 'I have put it to the credit of your account.' I want to +make that statement in order that it may go forth to the world +whether the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society choose to allow their +payments to go in liquidation of such debts. That may be the case, +but I hold a strong opinion that the Society meant to do no such +thing. + +7597. It has been explained that such a payment of the +Shipwrecked Mariners' Society has been put to the man's +account, but that it was only done in a case where the account +was due for the boat which had been lost. Is it not quite a natural +thing that the merchant, in the case that is supposed, might very +fairly put the money to the account of the boat which had been +lost, and then supply it new boat upon credit in the same way as he +had supplied the old one?-But the man has no boat. What I mean +by giving this evidence is, in order that the Shipwrecked Mariners' +Society may understand how the money which they pay is applied +by their agents here. If they think it is it right appropriation of the +money, then, of course, I have no fault to find with it. + +7598. Do you know whether there is any rule of the Society +prohibiting such a use of the money?-I don't know; but if it was +a right transaction, then it is quite right that it should be known. + +7599. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Greig this +morning?-I did. + +7600. He said something about marking the horns of cattle for a +debt: are you acquainted with the existence of such it practice?-I +am. I have seen the cattle driven down to a place in my own +neighbourhood, and kept there for a night and marked. + +7601. Do you think there is any objection to that practice? Is +there any reason why a man should not secure his debt by taking +possession of the cattle of his debtor?-I hold that there ought to +be no such seizure, and no such clandestine way of securing a +man's debt. There are processes of law open to a man for securing +his debt, if he chooses to avail himself of them. + +7602. But the thing is done with the consent of the debtor?-That +may be said, but my opinion is, that the debtor is not in a position +to refuse; and in cases where it is done, it is done not only for the +purpose of securing the man himself, but to keep the cattle from +falling into the hands of another man to whom a debt is due. + +7603. Are you speaking of cases which you know?-Yes. +Suppose I have cattle, and I am due you an account, and you +give me provisions at your shop, perhaps another man, to whom +I am also in debt, won't be so liberal, and I will tell you to come +and mark my cattle and let the other man whistle. That is the way +in which it is done. Now, such a practice is most immoral in its +effects. + +7604. In what way?-Because this man cheats the other one. I +should have made a fair failure, and then both men would have got +a share of the balance I could pay. + +7605. Do you know whether the price credited to the debtor in +such a case is generally a fair price?-I have no means of knowing +that. + +7606. Is the price ascertained by a public sale?-It may be in some +cases, but I know in many cases it is not. + +7607. Do you think that, for the introduction of ready-money +system, a multiplication of banks would be necessary?-I don't +think it. + +7608. Does not the fact that banks only exist in Lerwick act as a +bar to the introduction of such a system?-No; I think that +difficulty could easily be met. For instance, the Union Bank at +Lerwick had their principal institution at the top of the town; but +when opposition came, they opened small shop in the principal +street in Lerwick, and they have now two offices there, a small one +and a large one. Now, if the credit system were put an end to, for +the sake of both parties, both merchants and people, there would +soon be a small bank opened at Hillswick, if it should be nowhere +else. + +7609. How do people do with regard to banking just now?-The +banking is very easily conducted, so far as I know, because the +people have little money in their hands. + +7610. Don't you know that many fishermen have large accounts in +the bank in Lerwick already?-I know that some of the fishermen +have a little there; but I know that the large accounts are not in the +banks. I know from their statements where they get 5 per cent. for +their money, and that is not from the bank. + +7611. Where do they get that?-I won't mention any particular +place, but they get it from the merchants in Shetland. + +7612. Are there many men who are in a position have accounts of +that kind with the merchants?-Several of them of the better class +have told me about that themselves. + +7613. Are these the one-fourth or one-third of the whole whom +you mentioned, or a part of them?-They don't make one-fourth +of the whole. The parties who could have such accounts would +not perhaps come to one-sixth of the whole. Of course, I am +speaking generally when I give that proportion. + +7614. Do you mean that it is only one-sixth of the one-third who +are well-doing, that have such accounts?-I should say it would +not be more than one-sixth of the one-third who had them. + +7615. Are there many public-houses in your parish?-No; properly +speaking, there are no public-houses at all. There are shops where +spirits are sold, but there is no public-house. At Hillswick, for +instance, there is a shop with a back-shop to which the men go +round and get whisky. + +7616. But not to be consumed on the premises?-I never was +there; but I understand the men do drink in that back place. I +know that from their own statements to me. + +7617. Does each merchant who keeps a shop and cures fish, have a +grocer's licence?-No; I think there are licences in North Roe and +Ollaberry as well as here. I may give a statement with regard to +whisky [Page 186] since it has been mentioned. I hold in my hand +the account of a fisherman for goods supplied to him at the shop; +and I find that, during the six months over which it extends, the +value of the whisky supplied was 14s. 10d. The way in which it +came into my hands was this: A gentleman in the south was +responsible for the account, and when it was sent to him, he was +so horrified about it that he sent it from Edinburgh to me to inquire +into, and I saw the people. + +7618. How long was that since?-I think it is about three years +ago. I sent the account to a merchant in the south to analyze it, so +that I might report to the gentleman. I got back an analysis of it, +with this written upon it: 'This account cannot be made payable in +any court of law;' and the grounds for that opinion were stated to +be, that there had been nothing weighed and nothing measured in +the account, and they held that no account could be made payable +in law that was neither measured nor weighed. + +7619. Have you a copy of that account?-No; but I can give the +name of the party in Edinburgh who got it. What I mention it for, +is to show that there was 14s. 10d. charged for <aqua> in six +months in various small sums. There was also a large sum paid +in cash; and I was so struck with that, as the man was not married, +that I went to another person who was acquainted with the manner +in which business was carried on in Shetland, and asked him what +was meant by so much cash being paid. He said, 'Oh, that is +money which is borrowed in the one shop and drunk in the other.' +That is the explanation I got, whether it was true or not. + +7620. But that was the explanation of a third party who had no +concern with the account?-Yes. When I sent the document to the +gentleman in Edinburgh, he said he would pay that amount, but he +would pay no more; and after that he sent me £5 a-year, from +which I make payments to the man every month. + +7621. In this account there is £1, 14s. 10d. and £1, 14s. 2d. in +cash which you say was also spent in whisky?-I was only told +about that by a party who said he knew about the same thing +having been done. In this account there is 2s. 6d. entered for +sweeties, verifying what was said in some of the evidence, that +sweeties were given to make up the balance. With regard to +whisky, I may explain that I had some whisky tested by a qualified +party, which I believe was sold in the shops at 9d. per gill. The +profit upon that, on being tested, was found to be 55 per cent. I +also had tea sent and tested, for which the people had paid 3s. per +pound, and the proper judge, to whom I sent it, sent me word that +it was exactly 2s. tea, there being 50 per cent. of profit charged +upon it. + +7622. Who tested the tea?-A tea merchant in Aberdeen. + +7623. Who tested the whisky?-A spirit-dealer also in Aberdeen. +I sent these articles to be tested in order to show the enormous +prices which are charged by these merchants. I have no interest in +the matter myself, except that my poor parishioners should not pay +more than they ought to pay, and also that an end might be put to a +system which is injurious both to merchants and people. + +7624. What remedy would you propose for the existing state of +matters, and for the evils which are alleged to exist?-My remedy +would be to declare the present truck system to be penal. + +7625. What would you desire to be penal?-The truck system. + +7626. But the truck system, properly so called, is penal; and the +question in this inquiry is, whether other things are to be included +within the operation of the Acts which apply to the truck +system?-Well, I mean that this system of carrying on business +in Shetland should be declared to be penal. + +7627. Do you mean that you would make it penal to give long +credit for shop goods?-I would make it penal to give any credit at +all, and I would admit either party to give evidence against the +other party for infringement of that statute, and would be to make +all debts so incurred irrecoverable by any process of law. These +three things are what I think would form a remedy for the present +state of matters. At the same time, I am just as convinced that +the merchant ought to live, and must live, and have a reasonable +profit, as I am that the people should not pay more for their articles +than they are worth. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JAMES BRUCE, +examined. + + +7628. You are the schoolmaster of this parish, and inspector +of poor?-I am. + +7629. How long have you been inspector of poor?-For +twenty-two years. + +7630. I understand the number of paupers in this parish is +fifty-three?-Yes; exclusive of dependants. I now exhibit an +abstract of the accounts for all the time I have been in the +office of inspector, which I keep for any own satisfaction and +the satisfaction the Board. + +7631. Do you think the amount of pauperism in the parish has +diminished or increased in your experience?-I think it has kept +very much about the same some years back. + +7632. Do you think that pauperism is increased or affected in any +way by habits arising from the system of protracted credit which +exists in the parish, or have you formed any opinion at all upon the +subject?-I have formed no opinion upon that, but I know that the +Poor-Law has acted very injuriously upon the parish by increasing +the expenses. + +7633. That is to say, it has acted injuriously as regards those who +pay the assessment, whatever it may have done with regard to the +condition of the paupers themselves?-Yes. For a long time after +the passing of the Act, we kept on the old system of quartering and +paying the paupers through the session fund, and so on, and the +heritors generally contributed a certain amount yearly to meet any +balance due. + +7634. I presume the payments made to the paupers are made in +money?-Yes; all in money, except clothing, which is taken round +to them. + +7635. How long has that system prevailed?-Since the Poor-Law +came into operation in the parish. + +7636. Since 1845?-Not since 1845; nor for several years +afterward. The legal assessment, I think, came on in 1861. + +7637. You say that all clothing to the paupers is furnished by the +inspector?-Yes; furnished by myself. + +7638. Where is it purchased?-At any of the shops in the district, +generally where the paupers live. Anything that is required for +paupers in North Roe I generally purchase from Mr. Greig. + +7639. In this district where is it purchased?-Generally at +Hillswick, from Mr. Anderson. + +7640. Is there any other place except these two shops where it is +purchased?-Yes; at Ollaberry and Lochend from Mr. Laurenson. + +7641. You purchase it yourself and deliver it to the paupers?- +Yes. + +7642. When their allowances are due in money, are they paid in +money?-Yes; they call up for it-all those who are round me. At +North Roe I send a cheque to Mr. Greig previous to the time for +the amount to be distributed. + +7643. If a pauper is unable to come here, how is his allowance +conveyed to him?-They generally send their tickets, and I send +the money by any person who can convey it. It is paid on tickets. + +7644. What kind of ticket?-It is just an account of the allowances +given to the paupers, and it is authorized by the Board of +Supervision. It is the receipt for the money. The pauper keeps +the ticket in his own possession, and whenever I get the ticket I +pay the money, and mark it on the back. The pauper comes +himself, if able and if not he sends the ticket. + +7645. Was the allowance never paid by means of orders for meal? +-Previous to the legal assessment [Page 187] coming into +operation in the parish in 1861, it was sometimes paid in that +way, and sometimes in cash. + +7646. Has it ever been paid by an order for meal or food since +then?-Not to my recollection, except it may be in the case of the +applicants for casual relief, or applicants coming to me seeking +relief before the meeting of the Board. In that case, sometimes, +but not often, I would give an order for a little meal. I generally do +that when I have not sufficient confidence in the economy of the +party, and when I think the allowance may be put to some other +use than the purchase of meal or necessaries. + +7647. Has it never been paid to paupers regularly on the roll by +means of an order upon the shop?-No; not since the Act came +into operation in the parish. + +7648. Are you quite sure of that?-I think I am perfectly sure, so +far as my recollection goes. + +7649. Have any of the paupers on the roll ever asked you to +give them a line or an order on the shop for meal or other +requirements?-No; not to my recollection. They always get +their cash. + +7650. Have you ever had occasion to transact business with +paupers, or to make payment of their allowances at the shop at +Hillswick, or at any of the shops in the neighbourhood?-No; I +don't practise that at all. + +7651. Has it ever been done?- Very seldom, I think. + +7652. But it may have been done?-At the last month's pay there +were two poor women living about five miles from this, who, I +knew, could not come themselves, and I was doubtful that they +might not get a person to come for them; therefore I sent word to +them to send their ticket to Mr. Anderson and get the money. That +was only done on one occasion. + +7653. That is the only occasion within your recollection?-Yes. +Mr. Anderson generally draws the money for me from the bank; +and when I run out of change, I send down the pauper to him with +a note for money; but that does not often happen. It is simply +when I am out of change. + +7654. Mr. Anderson merely acts as your banker?-Yes. + +7655. He draws the money as the chairman of the Board?-Yes; +and it is handy for me, because I get the small change from him +that I require. + +7656. How often does it happen in the course of a year that you +give an order of that sort?-I could not say how often it happens. I +only remember one other instance of it just now, besides the one I +have referred to. The person called here, and I did not have the +change; and as the person was going to Hillswick, I gave a note on +Mr. Anderson to give the money. But it is not at all a common +practice. + +[The sitting was here adjourned till the evening.] + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR HARRISON, +examined. + +7657. You are a merchant at Hillswick?-Yes, at Urrafirth. + +7658. You were for some years in the employment of Mr. +Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes. + +7659. And you are now in business on your own account at +Urrafirth?-Yes. + +7660. Do you employ any fishermen?-No. + +7661. Are you in business in the drapery and provision line?-No; +I only deal in groceries. + +7662. Do you not keep any soft goods at all?-Yes; I have a few +pieces of cotton. + +7663. You are just beginning business?-Yes. + +7664. Had you any difficulty in getting shop accommodation?- +Yes, a little. + +7665. In what way? Was it not easy to find a shop in this +parish?-No; it was not easy. + +7666. How so?-The heritor did not wish to give it to me; and I +had a lease saying that I was not to commence business. + +7667. You had a lease of what?-Of a bit of ground which I held. + +7668. Was it a lease of the premises you now possess?-Yes. + +7669. When did you take that lease?-Fourteen years ago. + +7670. You have lived there for fourteen years, and had a piece of +ground?-Yes. + +7671. And the lease prohibited you from carrying on any shop +business?-Yes; but the heritor allowed me to cure fish, and to +keep a little to supply the people whom I employed. + +7672. In what way did you employ them?-I employed them, and +paid them every Saturday night. + +7673. In what business?-In curing fish-drying Faroe cod. I +don't buy the cod; I cure it for Mr. Adie. + +7674. Is that your principal occupation?-Yes. + +7675. And the landlord agreed to allow you to keep small shop for +supplying provisions to these men?-Yes. + +7676. Is that all you are doing now?-Yes. + +7677. Did you receive a letter from the Busta trustees, forbidding +you to carry on a shop business there, or stating that you could not +be allowed to hold the premises for the purpose of doing so?-No, +I received no letter; but in my lease it is stated that I am not to +carry on anything but the curing business. + +7678. But you had that fourteen years ago?-Yes. + +7679. Have you had any communication with the Busta trustees, or +with any one of them, on the subject since you took your lease?- +Yes. + +7680. With whom?-With Mr. Gifford and Mr. Hay. + +7681. Was that communication in writing?-No; it was personally +with them at Busta. + +7682. Did you apply to them for leave to carry on a more extensive +business in the way of a shop?-No; I did not apply for anything +more than what I got. + +7683. What was it you went to see them about?-I went to ask for +liberty to cure fish, and keep a small store. + +7684. When did you do so?-About November 1869. + +7685. Was that shortly after you left Mr. Anderson's +employment?-No; it was before. + +7686. Did they grant you that permission?-Yes; latterly it was +granted. + +7687. But it was not granted to you at first?-No. + +7688. For what reason?-I don't know for what reason. + +7689. Did they not assign a reason for not granting you that +permission?-Yes. I think they said it was too near Hillswick. + +7690. What was the meaning of that?-That the starting of another +business there might reduce the value of Hillswick, and therefore it +would not pay such a rent. + +7691. Did you understand from that, that in granting Mr. Anderson +a lease of the premises at Hillswick, they had become bound not to +allow any other shops to be opened in the district?-No; they did +not say anything like that. + +7692. Was it with Mr. Gifford this conversation took place?-Yes. + +7693. Was it implied that they had some reason for not interfering +with Mr. Anderson's business?-Yes; at least the reason he gave +was not so much that it would interfere with Mr. Anderson's +business, as that it would bring down the rent of Hillswick, and +would not advance the property anything. + +7694. Do you mean that if you were to open a shop there, the +necessary result would be that Mr. Anderson would require to have +his rent reduced?-Yes; that is likely to have been what was +meant. + +7695. How long after that was it when you got permission to open +your present shop?-I don't know exactly how long it was. +Perhaps it may have been a month or two after it was spoken of +first. I then got [Page 188] liberty to cure the fish and keep +provisions for the men I employed; that was all. + +7696. But only for the men you employed?-That was all the +liberty I got. + +7697. Are you not allowed to sell to anybody except the people +you employ?-I never asked any more liberty than that. + +7698. When you first went to ask for that permission, had you +made arrangements to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-No. + +7699. Had you made the arrangement by the second time you +went?-Yes. + +7700. Did you say to Mr. Gifford, when you went the second time, +that you had made such an arrangement?-Yes; I told him I had +got the offer of fish to cure. + +7701. Was he more ready to grant your application on that +occasion?-Yes. He said I could take the work. + +7702. Had you spoken to Mr. Anderson about the matter in the +interval?-I don't remember; perhaps I might. + +7703. You were trying to set up your business at that time?-Yes. + +7704. Don't you remember whether you applied to Mr. Anderson +with regard to that matter at all?-Yes. I believe I told him then +what had passed between me and Mr. Gifford at first. + +7705. Did Mr. Anderson then agree to withdraw any objection he +might have to it?-He did not say anything about that. + +7706. In what way did you come to make an arrangement with Mr. +Adie?-He had been told that I intended to commence curing fish, +and he offered me some to cure. + +7707. Was it through Mr. Anderson that that was done?-I don't +know. + +7708. Did the offer from Mr. Adie come to you through Mr. +Anderson?-No. He wrote me directly and I replied accepting his +offer, and then I went and saw him at Voe. + +7709. Do you buy the fish from Mr. Adie's boatmen?-No; I buy +no fish. + +7710. They are delivered to you by Mr. Adie's boatmen on his +account, and you cure them for Mr. Adie, employing your own +people and receiving a contract price for the curing?-Yes. + +7711. How long had you been in Mr. Anderson's service before +that time?-Upwards of twenty years. + +7712. All the time as a shopman?-Not all the time, but perhaps +for eighteen years as a shopman. + +7713. Why did you leave his employment?-There was some +difference between us, and we thought it best to part. + +7714. Was there a quarrel about money matters, or anything of that +kind?-No; there was no great quarrel. + +7715. After you were refused that permission in the first instance +by the Busta trustees, did Mr. Anderson agree in any way not to +object to you having the shop, provided your sales were limited to +the men whom you employed yourself?-No; Mr. Anderson never +objected to me, nor in my presence; I did not hear him objecting. + +7716. Did you know of him objecting?-I could not say that I +knew of it. + +7717. Did you think he was objecting?-Yes. + +7718. What made you think that: was it what Mr. Gifford said?-I +think it was. + +7719. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have less objection to it +when he knew it was Mr. Adie who was concerned in the +business?-I took no thought of that. + +7720. Do you know that Mr. Adie had interfered on your behalf +with Mr. Gifford?-Not to my knowledge. + +7721. Did you ask him to do so?-No. + +7722. Have you any reason to suppose that he interfered on your +behalf with Mr. Anderson?-Yes. He wrote to Mr. Anderson +about me, inquiring why had left, and asking for testimonials. + +7723. Was that before he wrote to you making the offer?-It was +when I was asking goods from him. I don't remember exactly +whether it was before or after. + +7724. Do you sell the goods for Mr. Adie, or do you sell them on +your own account?-I sell them on my own account. + +7725. Do you get them from Mr. Adie at wholesale prices?-Yes. + +7726. At least you get them from him at a lower rate than that at +which you sell them?-Yes. + +7727. Was it before or after you got leave from the Busta people to +open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say +exactly when it was, but it was before I got the goods from Mr. +Adie. + +7728. Was it before you had got permission to open the shop that +you applied to Mr. Adie for the goods?-No; I had got permission +before I applied for the goods. + +7729. Then it was after you had got permission open the shop that +Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-Very likely it was but I don't +know. I did not know about him having written until some time +afterwards, when he told me. + +7730. When you arranged with Mr. Adie about the fish-curing, was +anything said about you having a shop from which to supply the +people with goods?-No. + +7731. Are you sure of that?-Yes. I wrote to him, and I never said +anything about that. + +7732. But you went to see him after that?-Yes; it was only then I +spoke about the goods. + +7733. Was it on your way home from Voe that you called at Busta +and saw Mr. Gifford about the shop the second time?-No; it was +before I went to Voe. + +7734. Was it on your way to Voe?-I don't remember. Perhaps it +may have been on a different day altogether. + +7735. But it was before you went to Voe, and after you had got the +letter from Mr. Adie?-Yes. + +7736. You don't know from Mr. Adie or Mr. Anderson whether +there had been any letters between them about you until after you +were at Voe that time?-I don't know. + +7737. Do you think there was any such letter?-I don't know of +any, but there may have been. + +7738. How did you know of the other letter first: did you see it?- +No. + +7739. Who told you of it?-Mr, Adie. + +7740. Was that at another time when you called upon him?-No; +it was the first time-the time when I went to him and asked for +goods. He told me then that he had written to Mr. Anderson and +got his reply. + +7741. That is not what you told me before: did you not say before, +that you thought it was after you had asked for the goods that Mr. +Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-It was after I had agreed for the +fish. + +7742. Then the first time you saw Mr. Adie was at Voe before you +opened the shop, and when you went to ask for goods?-Yes. + +7743. And when you were at Voe at that time Mr. Adie told you he +had written to Mr. Anderson, and had received a reply from him +containing a certificate?-Yes. + +7744. Did Mr. Adie tell you at the same time that he had seen Mr. +Gifford?-I cannot say. + +7745. What department did you manage in Mr. Anderson's +shop?-I was fish-curer and factor for the summer time at +Stenness. + +7746. Do you know William Inkster?-Yes. + +7747. Do you remember three or four years ago when he left Mr. +Adie and came to fish to Mr Anderson?-Yes. + +7748. Did you know that he did that because Mr. Adie had refused +him supplies on account of a debt?-No; I did not know that. + +7749. Did you know that he was in Mr. Adie's debt at that time?- +Yes. + +7750. Do you know that Mr. Anderson took over the debt?-Yes. + +7751. Is it a common thing here for a fish-merchant to take over +the debt of a fisherman who leaves another employer and comes to +him?-Yes. + +[Page 189] + +7752. Have you heard of that frequently among the fishermen?- +Yes. It has been the practice so long as I can remember, except +some time after Mr. Anderson came here, when it was not done. +Then, a fisherman who had got an advance from one merchant, +would go to another and leave his balance unpaid, and therefore +the old system was renewed again. + +7753. Do you know the nature of the arrangement which was made +when the system was renewed?-I do not. + +7754. Do you know what the arrangement is?-I never saw the +arrangement. + +7755. I don't suppose it was in writing?-I could not say. + +7756. Do you know what the practice generally is now in such +cases?-Yes. The merchant generally pays the man's balance +before giving him anything. + +7757. That is to say, the new employer pays the man's balance +before agreeing with him to fish for him for the season?-Yes. + +7758. Is the whole balance paid, or only a part of it?-That is just +as they can arrange. + +7759. Is there a rule that a man is not to be taken by new employer +without his balance being paid to the old one?-I think that is +generally understood now. + +7760. Do you know over what district that arrangement prevails? +Do you know what fish-merchants do that?-I think it extends no +further than to the men fishing at Stenness, and from Voe to +Hillswick. + +7761. Does that include Messrs. Adie, Mr. Anderson, and Mr. +Inkster?-Yes. + +7762. Were you aware that that was always done when you were in +Mr. Anderson's employment?-No, it was not always done, but it +was practised before I came into Mr. Anderson's employment at +all. + +7763. But when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment, was it +not always done?-No, not always. + +7764. You mean that the arrangement ceased for a while, and was +renewed?-Yes. + +7765. How long is it since it was renewed?-I cannot tell. + +7766. Was it before William Inkster came to Mr. Anderson?- +Yes, some time before that. + +7767. Did you know that it was done in other cases besides +Inkster's?-Yes. + +7768. Was it done in many cases?-I don't remember of many. + +7769. Was it commonly known among the fishermen that there +was such a rule?-Yes, latterly, I believe, it was generally known. + + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON +(recalled). + +7770. You showed me some of your books yesterday, in which I +saw the name of William Inkster, Stenness and you explained to +me that a large sum of money, upwards of £40, which stood +against him in your books when he began to fish at the beginning +of last year, was the continuation of a balance that had been +against him for some years previously: is that so?-Yes. I would +rather not mention names, unless you think it necessary, because I +make it a rule with my shopmen that they are never to mention any +man's balance, whether it is due by him or not, on pain of being +turned off. + +7771. You told me that this large balance consisted partly of an +account which Inkster had incurred to Mr. Adie at Voe, and which +you had taken over when the man began to fish for you?-Yes. + +7772. What was the amount of the original debt which you took +over from Mr. Adie?-I think it came to about £20. + +7773. Inkster left Mr. Adie, I understand, in consequence of his +supplies being stopped?-I don't know the reason exactly. + +7774. But he came to fish for you?-Yes. + +7775. How did it happen that you undertook his debt at the end of +the first season he fished for you?-It was in consequence of an +agreement that exists between Mr. Adie, Mr. Inkster of Brae, and +me, with reference to each other's fishermen. + +7776. What is the nature of that agreement?-It was entered into +just to protect ourselves from those men who want to escape from +paying their debts. I think we're bound to each other not to take +the men without making some arrangement to see that their debts +shall be paid. + +7777. Do you undertake to pay the whole debt, or only a part of it, +according to circumstances?-It is the whole debt. + +7778. Was this a verbal arrangement?-No. + +7779. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes. + +7780. Have you got it?-I have not. I rather think I got a copy sent +to me at one time but I think Mr. Adie has the extended +agreement. + +7781. Have you got a copy of it now?-I have not. + +7782. Have you lost it?-No. It is very likely among my papers, +but I cannot say. It is a long time since I came across it. + +7783. Has this arrangement been of long standing? Do you +remember the date of it?-I cannot exactly say the date. I think it +must be from five to nine years since it was entered into, but I +cannot speak accurately as to the date. + +7784. Has the arrangement been acted upon?-Yes. + +7785. When a fisherman leaves one master, and goes to another of +those three, the debt due to the former master is generally paid by +the new one?-Yes. + +7786. You showed me in your invoice book an entry of the last +purchase of oatmeal you had made from Messrs. Glenny, +Aberdeen, for the purposes of your business, as follows:-'1871 +June 19. 50 sacks oatmeal, sacks 50s., £100'?-Yes. The 50s. is +the price of the sacks, to be returned or kept. + +7787. A sack of oatmeal consists of 280 lbs.?-Yes. + +7788. What is the selling price of a lispund?-5s. 4d. + +7789. Has that been the price for some time?-It has been the +price during the last season. + +7790. You also showed me an invoice of flour from Messrs. J. & J. +Tod, Dalkeith:-'1871. October 2. 2 sacks extra superfine flour, at +44s., £4, 8s.;' and another invoice, containing these entries:- +'October 19. 2 sacks No. 2 flour, at 45s., £4, 10s., 1 sack oatmeal, +£2'?-Yes. The sacks in these invoices are charged separately. + +7791. What is the selling price of the flour?-6s. 6d. per lispund. +Flour is also sold by the lispund here. + +7792. Both the flour and the oatmeal in the invoice of October 19 +were intended for the purposes of your business?-Yes. Besides +the invoice price, there are freight and charges to be taken into +account. The freight and landing would be 2s. per sack for the +oatmeal. That is the steamer's freight to Lerwick, and then it is +brought by a small packet which comes round by Roenesshill +when she has anything like a cargo. The small packet charges 1s. +6d. per sack; it is double freight coming round the hill; so that +probably the freight and landing charges will be 3s. 6d. per sack. + +7793. Are these all the charges?-I think so. There would also be +insurance charged against me; it is at my risk when shipped. It +was not insured in this case, but still that ought to be reckoned, +because I ran the risk. I don't know the rate of insurance. I have +paid as high as 35s. per cent. of insurance from Leith, but I have +got it much cheaper insured in Glasgow-I think 7s. 6d. per cent. + +7794. Is that for goods in general, or for any particular kind of +goods?-Just for general goods. + +7795. You heard the evidence that was given this morning?-Yes. + +7796. Is there any statement you have heard from any of the +witnesses which you wish to correct, or anything you wish to say +in addition to what you said yesterday?-Yes. I think I would be +inclined to differ from [Page 190] the description which Mr. +Sutherland gave of the people. My experience of them has been +very different. + +7797. You would be disposed to give the Shetland people a better +character than he gave them?-I think so. I think they can bear +favourable comparison with any people of the same class that I +have come across in other parts of the world. + +7798. In respect of frugality?-Yes. + +7799. And foresight?-Yes; and activity in business. + +7800. And for their moral virtues?-Yes. + +7801. Is it not the case that a considerable part of the year is spent +in comparative idleness by the Shetland fishermen?-I believe it +is, but that perhaps does not arise from any unwillingness on their +part to work. + +7802. From what does it arise?-From want of employment. + +7803. Have they not their land?-They have their land, but, as I +observed before, there is a bar to improvement there. + +7804. Would it not be possible to introduce a more extensive +system of winter fishing than that which exists now?-I don't +think it. + +7805. It seems a little peculiar, does it not, that the summer fishing +should be prosecuted in the big boats, and that only the small boats +should be sent out in winter?-They prosecute the fishing in the +big boats in winter too, when the weather permits. + +7806. But they don't go so far to sea in winter as in summer?-No; +they don't go so far. + +7807. I understood it was principally the small boats that went out +in winter?-That is true, but on several occasions they employ the +big boats too. But the smaller boats, when the weather permits, +are much handier and lighter to manage. + +7808. Are they safer?-They are equally safe when the weather +permits. + +7809. But would they not be able to go greater distances to sea +with the big boats?-It would not matter much what size of boat +they had if they were caught at sea by a gale. + +7810. Is it not the case that on the east coast of Scotland the +fishing is prosecuted for nine or ten months in the year; and that +the fishermen there, who are a very comfortable class, have no +occupation except that of fishermen? I am not asking you at +present about any separation between fishing and agriculture, but +don't you think it would be possible to prosecute the fishing in +Shetland to the same extent, and for the same length of time, as it +is prosecuted on the east coast of Scotland?-I don't think it. + +7811. Is that owing to the weather?-It is owing to the weather, +and the great exposure to the Atlantic, and the great swell that +comes in from it. A very light puff of wind raises a tremendous +sea in winter, that scarcely any boat could live in. + +7812. In some parts of Shetland, where there is not so much +exposure, is not the winter fishing prosecuted to some extent?- +Yes. + +7813. And to a greater extent than it is here?-Yes; that is done +about Yell Sound, for instance. They are protected there on +almost all sides. + +7814. Here you are exposed to westerly gales which do not affect +the fishermen on the east coast?-That is so. + +7815. Is that the principal reason why the fishing is not prosecuted +here so much in winter?-That is partly the reason. + +7816. Is there any other reason why the winter fishing does not +succeed here?-Yes. Every experienced fisherman knows that +it is only at certain seasons of the year that the ling come over +the ground in any quantities; and that is, I think, from, say the +month of April or May to September. That has been the case for +generations. + +7817. Ling is your staple fish here, upon which the success of the +fishing depends?-Yes; altogether. + +7818. Would it not be worth while to prosecute the fishing in +winter for the purpose of taking cod and haddock and other +fish?-I don't think it. + +7819. Would it not pay without the ling?-No; the other fish +would not be got in sufficient quantities. + +7820. Would they not be got in the same quantities, as on the east +coast of Scotland?-No. The ground here for one thing is not so +extensive. On the east coast of Scotland, you can have a range of +perhaps, ten or twenty or thirty miles from every port, which you +have not got here. + +7821. How have you not got that range here?-The island is not +so big altogether; and there are only certain tracks of ground that +the men can fish on. + +7822. It is on certain banks only that the fish caught?-Yes. + +7823. And the banks here are not so extensive as on the east +coast?-They are not. + +7824. Has any attempt ever been made to introduce a more +extensive winter fishing?-I don't think there is a more active +class of men anywhere than there is to the westward here. They +have small holdings, but they are constantly prepared to go off to +sea when the weather offers, and they do prosecute the fishing +often. + +7825. Have you anything further to state?-With regard to the +debts of the men, I may say that in 1864 I gave them to understand +that unless those who were in debt reduced their balances in the +former year, I could not help them again with their rent; and, +except in exceptional cases, I have invariably acted upon that rule +since. + +7826. You mean that when they came to you at rent time for a cash +payment in order to help them to pay their rents, you could not +help them with that unless their former balance was reduced?- +Quite so. + +7827. You mentioned in a former part of your examination that a +certain amount of cash had been paid at last settlement?-Yes. + +7828. That would be in November?-Yes; in November and +December. + +7829. Did the whole of that pass to the fishermen, or was any rent +included in it?-That was what I paid to the people when I was +settling. There might be others besides fishermen, but I did not +distinguish between them. + +7830. Do any of the rents of the Busta estate pass through your +hands?-No. + +7831. But the rents to be paid to the factor would probably, where +due by fishermen, be paid out of these payments by you?-I think +so; but not necessarily in every case. + +7832. Have you any arrangement with the factor about the rents of +your fishermen?-None at all. + +7833. That is quite an independent concern?-Quite. + +7834. I think you have prepared some statement with regard to the +amount of debts due by your fishermen during the last four or five +years?-Yes. I have prepared the following statement, showing +the number of men in debt, the total amount of their debts, and the +average amount due by each, taking it as a whole:- + No. of Men Total + Year. in debt. amount of Average. + debt. + 1868 74 £1044 £14, 2s. + 1869 79 1017 13 + 1870 72 942 13 + 1871 64 782 12, 4s. + +7835. That shows that eight men had wiped off their debt +altogether between 1870 and 1871?-Yes. That will prove, I +think, that they are not quite so black as they have been painted. +They are improving a little. The largest balance was £49, 14s. +21/2d. in 1868, which was reduced to £41, 9s. 9d. in 1871. + +7836. The amount of indebtedness at Ollaberry is not included in +these figures?-No. The figures I have now given apply only to +the Hillswick men, who number about 125.* Four of the indebted +men have left since, and are not clear of debt. That would reduce +the amount by about £50 in all of the years except the first. + +* In a note subsequently received from Mr. Anderson, he says: 'I +find, in going over my books, that instead of 125 men, as I +believed fished for me last year, I have actually 147. These I find +are made up by fee'd men, and several crews who cured and dried +their own fish, and from whom I purchased their fish so dried at +the end of the season. + + +[Page 191] + +Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR +SANDISON, examined. + + +7837. You are a shopman and bookkeeper in Mr. Anderson's +establishment at Hillswick?-I am. + +7838. You are in the course of making up, at my request, a return +from ledger D and ledger V, which are books containing the ledger +accounts of the individual fishermen employed at Hillswick?- +Yes. + +7839. Do both these books contain the accounts of the individual +men?-Yes. Ledger D contains the accounts both of the crews +and private accounts of the men; and ledger V contains some +private accounts. + +7840. In proceeding to make up the list, you are taking the names +of the last fifty fishermen as they appear in the ledger, and you are +inserting in the return the various particulars which have been +furnished to you?-Yes. + +7841. The return which you are preparing, and which you are to +send me, will be correctly taken from Mr. Anderson's books?- +Yes, so far as I am able to do it. + +7842. Is there any other person here who wishes to be examined? +(No answer.) Then I adjourn the sittings at this place until further +notice. + +<Adjourned>. + + +Brae: Saturday, January 13, 1872. +<Present>-Mr. Guthrie + +MAGNUS JOHNSTON, examined. + +7843. You keep a shop at Tofts, about a mile from Mossbank?- +Yes; I think it is rather more than a mile from Mossbank. + +7844. What do you deal in?-Tea, tobacco, sugar and I buy fish +too. + +7845. Do you cure them yourself?-Yes. + +7846. How many boats have you fishing for you?-I have no boats +of my own; I just buy a little fish in the winter time, and I cure the +men's fish in Feideland in summer. I cure at the fishing-station for +Andrew Tulloch, who was examined the other day. + +7847. From what fishermen do you buy your fish?-I buy them +from any man who comes along, and wants to sell fish to me. + +7848. Is that in the winter time only, or in the summer as well?- +In the winter only. I am a seaman myself, and I have followed the +sea since I was a child, but I stayed at home this year; and in the +summer season I cured Tulloch's fish, while the wife and the +bairns and I have commenced to sell a little tea and sugar and +tobacco, and to buy fish from the small fishing boats in winter. + +7849. Is that the way which people hereabout usually take to start +a shop business?-I think it is. + +7850. Do you keep accounts with the men that you buy the fish +from?-No. + +7851. Do you pay for them in cash?-Yes; always in cash. + +7852. And then they buy some provisions from you?-Yes; if they +like. + +7853. Are these paid for in cash too?-Yes. + +7854. I suppose you find it very uphill work competing with the +big shops?-I don't know. I am a kind of rough and ready sailor +man, and I don't take much thought about that; it does not give me +much concern. + +7855. Do the men prefer to deal with the big shops in it general +way?-I cannot say as to that. + +7856. Do you drive a good business with any of the men besides +those who sell their fish to you?-No; some of the neighbours may +buy a few provisions from us, but not many. A woman may sell +her eggs to us, and get provisions for them. + +7857. Where do you get your tea?-From Bremner & Grant, +Aberdeen. + +7858. Do they send their traveller round the country soliciting +orders?-Sometimes. He has not been round this winter, and I +get my tea when I write for it. + +7859. Do you keep pass-books for the business which you do with +your customers?-Sometimes, but not many. I think my girl keeps +a pass-book sometimes, but I am no scribe myself, and I cannot +keep books. + +7860. You never were a fisherman?-Not in the home fishing, but +I have been at the Faroe fishing as master. + +7861. When was that?-About four or five years ago. + +7862. Whose vessel were you in?-The late Mr. Hoseason's. I +have not been at Faroe since then. + +7863. You went from Mossbank then?-Yes; I was one year in a +schooner for Mr. Adie too. + +7864. Had you the same arrangement then about the fish which +exists now, that the men get one-half of the fish, for which they are +paid the current price at the end of the season?-Yes. + +7865. Did you at that time live where you are now?-Yes; and +when I went to the Faroe fishing. Some time after I got married I +lived in Northmaven, but now for nine years past at Martinmas I +have lived at Tofts. + +7866. When you went to the Faroe fishing, did you get your +supplies from Pole, Hoseason, & Company, when you were +employed by them?-No; I generally took my supplies in tea +and sugar and other things from Braidwood & Fowler, Sandport +Street, Leith. We are friendly yet, and they always send me some +present at Christmas. + +7867. Then you are rather better off than most of the men?-Yes; +in some ways I am. + +7868. At least you had sense to get your provisions where you +pleased?-Yes; and I had something left by my friends, besides +what I earned myself. When I was at the Faroe fishing, I did not +think they got fair-play. + +7869. Who did not get fair-play?-Not even myself, or any of the +men. I knew the fish had been selling at a higher rate than the men +got the benefit of; at least I was told so. + +7870. Do you think the men were not to blame for that, by making +a bargain which left them entirely at the discretion of the +merchant? The merchant could fix any price he liked, could he +not?-He could. But if I get the loan of a man's boat with which +to go to the fishing, and if I engage for one-half of the fish, then, I +think, it would only be fair-play to divide the fish in halves, and +for the merchant to take one-half, and give me the other. + +7871. But you said the men sometimes felt that the price which +they got for their fish at the end of the season was lower than it +ought to have been, and I was asking you whether you did not +think the men had themselves to blame for that. They did not +reserve any power to themselves about fixing the price, but left it +entirely to the merchants?-Yes. + +7872. Then your idea is, that they would have been wiser to have +kept some power about that in their own hands?-Yes. + +7873. How could they manage that?-They engaged for one-half +at the Faroe fishing, and the owners of the vessels ought to have +sold the fish conscientiously, and to have given the men the benefit +of their half, after taking off curing and other expenses. + +7874. But you say the men thought the owners did not always fix +the price conscientiously?-I thought so myself. + +7875. How would you manage it so that the men could make sure +of getting a fair price at the end of the season?-I would let the +men stand the chance of the markets so far as the fixing of the +price is concerned. + +[Page 192] + +7876. But is not that the bargain that is made now, that they get the +market price at the end of the season?-I believe it is, but it was +not so then. + +7877. What was the difference in the arrangement then?-I cannot +say. They engaged for one-half of the fish at that time, but I know +that sometimes they did not get the benefit of the market price. + +7878. Do you think they get the benefit of the market price +now?-I cannot say, for I have not been at Faroe for five years. + +7879. At that time did most of the men who were sailing with you +run accounts with the merchant for their outfit and supplies?- +Yes. + +7880. Had they generally a balance to get in cash settling time?- +Yes. + +7881. Did you know any men who were behind, and had a balance +against them at the end of the year?-I cannot say whether there +were any in that position. + +7882. You were not in that position yourself?-Never. + +7883. What was the reason why the men generally dealt with the +merchants who employed them at the fishing?-Perhaps the men +did not have money at the time with which to go and buy the +articles from any other party, and the man who owned the vessel +ready to supply them. That was the way in which it was done, so +far as I know. + +7884. I suppose some of them had been supplied with goods +before they went away to the fishing?-I think so. + +7885. And it was a common enough thing for an account to be +standing against them when they settled?-I believe it was. + +7886. Do you think any of them would have engaged with another +merchant in preference for the fishing if they had not had that +account?-I cannot say as to that. + +7887. Was there any obligation on them to engage with the +merchant who supplied them with their goods?-Not so far as I +know. + +7888. Except that they thought it fair to go and fish for him in +order that he might have some security for his advances?-Of +course. + +7889. How long is it since you opened your shop?-About +twenty-one or twenty-two months. + +7890. On whose land is it?-The proprietor, Mr. Robert Hoseason, +is in New Zealand. + +7891. Is it under the management of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-No. +Mr. Sievwright, writer in Lerwick, is the agent. Mr. John White +and Mr. Cheyne, Edinburgh, are the agents, and they have Mr. +Sievwright under them. + +7892. Had you any difficulty in getting a place in which to open +your business?-No; I had been living there before. + +7893. But was any objection made to your opening the shop?-No; +there could be none, because I have a lease of the place. + +7894. For what length of time is your lease?-For ten years. + +7895. Do you know whether there is a difficulty in getting +premises for shops in other parts of the district?-I cannot say, +because I never tried. + +7896. What is the price of your meal just now?-The fact is, we +have none. + +7897. Do you not sell meal?-Yes, I sell it. My meal is 16d. a +peck all through the year. + +7898. Is that higher or lower than the price at the Mossbank +shop?-I think it is 1d. below it. + +7899. Is your meal of the same quality as the meal there?-I think +so. I get my meal from Aberdeen. + +7900. Is it better than the meal sold at Mossbank?-I could not say +that. + +7901. Do you get it from Bremner & Grant?-Yes, and sometimes +I get it from Tulloch. I generally get it by the sack or boll; and if +any person takes a sack or boll from me, I give it at what it cost +me, adding something for freight. + +7902. You sell it at 16d. per peck; how much is that per boll?- +There are about 17 pecks to the boll, but you will not get a boll to +weigh out 17 pecks. There should be 171/2 in it, but weighing out +pecks and half pecks the boll will not weigh out so much as 17. + +7903. Are most of the people about Mossbank employed by Pole, +Hoseason, & Co. at the fishing?-Yes most of them. + +7904. Is there anybody there who fishes for one else?-James Hay +fishes for Mr. Adie, Voe. That is all I know. + +7905. Does he go to Voe to fish?-No; he fishes at Feideland +Station. + +7906. With that exception, will all the people within two or three +miles of Mossbank be fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; I +think most of them. + +7907. Or within five miles?-I could not say for five miles; but I +think most of them will. + +7908. Do most of them deal at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop?-I +believe they do. + +7909. Very few of them come to you?-Occasionally they do, but +not to any great extent. + +7910. Do you think you would have a greater number of +customers if you were employing boats yourself for the fishing?- +I cannot say; perhaps I might. + +7911. Have you not thought of turning your attention that way?- +Not as yet. + +7912. How is it that the men are at liberty to sell fish to you if they +are engaged to Pole, Hoseason & Co.?-They are engaged in the +summer time with the large boats, because the large boats belong +to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; but the small boats which they use in +the winter time belong to the men themselves, and it is more +convenient for the men living in the neighbourhood of my house to +sell their fish to me than to Pole, Hoseason, & Co. It would be +better for them to sell their fish to me 6d. per cwt. cheaper than to +go to Mossbank with them. The boats are their own, and the men +are not in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and therefore they can do +with these fish as they please. + +7913. Do you also buy fish from men who are in debt to Pole, +Hoseason, & Co.?-I don't know whether they are in debt to them +or not. I take fish from every one who brings them to me. + +7914. Do you buy many fish during the winter season in that +way?-Not a large quantity. Perhaps. I might have about 11/2 or 2 +tons of dry fish in the spring; that would be about the amount of it. + +7915. Are these worth about £20 a ton?-No; I got £17, 10s. last +year for them. + +7916. Then these fish don't sell so well as the summer cured +fish?-No; some of them are very small. + +7917. Do the men about you not think it would be more profitable +for themselves to cure their own fish?-They could not manage it, +because they have no cellars or stores in which to keep salt, or +convenient beaches on which to dry the fish. + +7918. Did not the men formerly cure their own fish in Shetland to +some extent?-I don't know. + +7919. Don't they try to do it still?-Some of them do it still in +Shetland; but in the winter time they must have a booth for the +purpose of salting their fish and keeping them. + +7920. Do you sell soft goods in your shop as well as provisions?- +No. We sometimes had a bit of white cotton last year for making +oil cloths, or the like of that, but we have none now. + +7921. Do you think the men about you are not able to purchase +from you so much as they would otherwise do from want of having +money in their pockets?-That is a thing I cannot say anything +about, because I never know what any man has in his pocket. We +never talk about that. I might have my ideas on the subject, but I +could not speak positively about it. + +7922. It is your ideas I want to know, and what, you feel in your +own experience. What is your opinion on the subject?-I believe +it might be better, for the men if they were allowed to buy or not as +they thought proper. + +7923. But do you think the extent of your dealings, is less than it +would be if the men had ready money payments?-I could not say +for that. + +[Page 193] + +7924. Supposing you provided as good an article as Pole, +Hoseason, & Co., would the men come to you in greater numbers +if they were paid in cash shorter periods?-I could not say. They +just come to as their own minds lead them, but I believe they +would still go to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, even although they +had money. + +7925. But don't you think they are prevented from coming to you +by their want of money?-They may be in some cases. + +7926. You say you have your own ideas about that: what are +they?-I believe it might be the idea of man that he might get a +better article if he could come to me for it, or go to Pole Hoseason, +& Co.'s shop, just as he liked. + +7927. But suppose a man does want to come to you, and I suppose +some of your friends would be very glad to deal with you, do you +know that they are sometimes in want of money, and thus +prevented from coming?-I don't know. + +7928. Do the men not prefer to go to a place where they can get +what they want on credit?-I don't know about that either. + +7929. Have you never been told that?-No. + +7930. Have you never suspected it?-No. I think they just go +where they please themselves. Perhaps they might get a better +bargain from another man than from me, and yet they might come +to me or go past me. + +7931. Are you quite content with the system of long settlements +which goes on at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s, and that the men should +run accounts there?-No, I am not satisfied with that. I think it +would be better for the people to have no accounts at all. + +7932. Do you mean that it would be better for their own sakes?- +Yes. + +7933. What would be the advantage to them?-For my own part, if +I had no money, but if I might go to a shop and take out more +goods than perhaps I ought to do, without regard to whether I +would be able to pay them or not; whereas if a man did not have +that liberty, but went into a shop with few pence in his pocket, he +might make it spin out better, or more to his own advantage. + +7934. Do you think he might get his meal cheaper by going to +another shop and paying for it in cash?-He might, or he might +take better care of his money, and manage to spin it out more. + +7935. I suppose a merchant like yourself, if you were giving +long credit in that way, would require little more profit on your +goods?-Of course. + +7936. But you can afford to sell cheaper because you are paid in +cash?-Yes; and I think it would be better for the public in general +if all payments were made in cash. + +7937. Do you employ some men in your curing business?-No; I +just do it with my own family. Sometimes I get a little boy to help +me for a while, but that is all. + +7938. When you were employed in the Faroe fishing, did you +get cash from the merchant in the course of season, when you +happened to come home, whenever you wanted it?-Yes. + +7939. Could your wife get cash?-She did not require it, and she +did not ask it. + +7940. Is there any sort of feeling that people don't like to ask for +cash before the settlement?-That might have been the case with +some, but it was not with me, because I did not need the cash until +it was due. + +7941. Then generally you did not ask for it until it was due?-No. + +7942. Do you think there is much money among the people in your +neighbourhood during the summer time?-I don't think there is +much. + +7943. Is it generally spent soon after settling time?-Yes. + +7944. Do you find that your cash transactions are greater at one +season of the year than at another?-I cannot say that. I have only +been one year in business, and I have not made any calculation +about that. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, ARTHUR THOMAS JAMIESON, examined. + +7945. You are the son of Jacob Jamieson, residing at Brae?-Yes. + +7946. You were employed by me on Wednesday last to go to +Mossbank, and to purchase some articles from the shop of Messrs. +Pole, Hoseason, & Co., there?-Yes. + +7947. You went there and purchased these articles without saying +who they were for?-Yes: + +7948. You have brought to me half a pound of sugar, for which +you paid 3d.?-Yes. + +7949. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes. + +7950. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 7d.?-Yes. + +7951. And 4 lbs. of oatmeal for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes. + +7952. You have now delivered these articles over to the clerk?-I +have. + +7953. Were these all the articles you purchased?-Yes. + +7954. Are they exactly in the same state now as when you bought +them?-Yes. + +7955. They are contained in the same parcels as when they were +put up in the shop?-Yes. + +7956. Have you any reason to believe that the prices which you +paid for the articles are different from those which are charged for +the same qualities of articles at other times in that shop?-There is +no difference, so far as I know. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined. + +7957. Have you a shop?-Yes; a small one. + +7958. Where?-At Brough, in North Delting, about two miles +from Mossbank. + +7959. What do you deal in?-Groceries; nothing else. + +7960. On whose land is your shop?-Mr. Gifford's of Busta. + +7961. How long have you had it?-The shop has been going on for +about ten years. + +7962. Were you at any time forbidden, either verbally or by your +lease, to have a shop on that ground?-No; I was told to go on. + +7963. Was there a shop there before you went?-Yes; they always +used to keep some small articles there for sale. + +7964. Do your customers generally pay you in ready money?- +Yes; I deal all in ready money; and I buy fish for cash. I am a +fisherman myself, and I buy few fish from others as I have a +chance, paying money for them, and my family cure them. + +7965. Is it the summer fishing you go to?-I am at home all the +year round at the sea-side, and I fish there, but they are generally +small fish I take. + +7966. You don't go to the haaf?-No. + +7967. Have you a boat's crew?-No. My father and a boy go +along with me. + +7968. Are you able to cure both your own fish and the fish which +you buy from other men?-Yes. + +7969. What quantity do you buy from other men?-It varies in +different years. When there are plenty of small cod in the Sound, I +may have 11/2 ton during the season, while in other seasons I may +have only the half of that. + +7970. Is it only the small fish you buy?-If bigger fish were +offered to me I would buy them, but there are no bigger fish +caught along the shores. + +7971. Do you not buy fish in the summer time?-Yes. + +7972. Do you buy fish brought in by the large boats at that time?- +No; the men take them to the stations. + +7973. Do they not bring any of the big fish to Mossbank in the +summer?-No; they are sold at the stations. + +[Page 194] + +7974. Do you never go there to buy fish?-No; I am content with +the home fishing. + +7975. Are the men bound to sell the small fish they get in the +winter to any particular merchant?-They sell these fish to any +one they like. There is no restriction upon them for that. Messrs. +Pole, Hoseason, & Co. never say anything about it. + +7976. Do you run any accounts in your shop?-Scarcely any. +There may be 1s. or an ounce of tobacco or any small thing of that +kind, marked down. + +7977. Are you often asked to give credit for a short time?-Very +often. + +7978. The men are not always in possession of ready money?- +No; they are very often out of money. + +7979. At what period of the year are they best off for money?- +About our place in the winter time if it is good, and if they are +catching a few cod, that is just about as good a time for them as +any. + +7980. Do they not also have a good deal of cash after settling +time?-After settling time they have always a little. + +7981. Is your trade better at that time than at other periods of the +year?-When it is good weather, and anything doing at the fishing, +or when the men have come from Feideland with the money which +they had got at settlement, they trade more at my shop, as a rule, +than at other times. + +7982. Is June and July a good time for your shop?-Not very good; +because most of the men are away at the fishing. There may be +two or three boats manned by old men at home; but, with the +exception of what they bring in from the Sound, I have nothing +else to depend upon. + +7983. Are not the men's wives and families at home, and requiring +provisions?-Yes; and I may have the chance of a few dozen eggs, +or any produce of that sort. + +7984. That is for buying, but I mean for selling: is June and July a +good season for the selling of your goods?-No; it is the worst +time of the year for me. + +7985. Why is that?-Because the men are all away at the fishing. + +7986. But their wives are left, and they require something to keep +them alive?-They are always working in what is called the kelp, +and they go to Mr. Pole with that, so that I have no chance of +buying it. I might have a chance of it, but I don't think it would +pay me, as I don't know anything about it. + +7987. Don't you think that if you had the chance of buying as +much kelp as you liked in the summer time you might drive a +better trade at your shop?-I might do a little better; but Messrs. +Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have the shores contracted for, so that they +must get the kelp. They pay so much to Mr. Gifford for the shores, +and in return for that they are entitled to the kelp, and they must +have it. + +7988. Do they pay in ready money for the kelp?-They make no +scruple to give ready money for it, if a somewhat lower price is +taken. + +7989. But the people generally take goods for it?-Yes; they +generally take the price in goods, or if they ask money, they will +receive 6d. less per cwt., which I think is not unfair. + +7990. If it was paid in ready money, I suppose you would have a +chance of getting some of the custom of these kelp-gatherers?- +Yes; if every man had his freedom to go where he liked, I would +have a chance. + +7991. Then I suppose the reason why sales are larger in winter and +less in summer is, that the people have not ready money to go to +your shop for the goods they want?-No; the men are all at the +ling fishing in the summer time and all the chance I have is in the +winter time, when they are at home fishing in the small boats. + +7992. But even although they were at home in summer, they would +not have ready money with which to come to you?-No. A man +might not have ready money continually, unless he was paid every +day for his catch. + +7993. Would it not be better for your business if the men were paid +every day or every week for their fish?-I don't think it would be +any better for me unless I was out at the fishing station. + +7994. But their families would have the money, and they might +come to you with it?-They might. + +7995. The men don't take their wives and children to the fishing +station?-No. + +7996. But I suppose the wives and children have very little money +when the men are away at the stations?-Very little. + +7997. Is that the reason why they get their supplies from the +merchant's shop?-Yes. + +7998. Only if they had the money they might go with it to another +dealer, from whom they might get their articles cheaper?-They +might. + +7999. Do you sell your meal any cheaper than it is sold at the +Mossbank shop?-No. I don't see that I can sell it any cheaper +than Mr. Pole can. + +8000. What is the price of your meal just now?-I deal very little +in that. I only sell a few groceries-such as tea, tobacco, sugar, +soap, soda, spice, pepper, and things of that kind. I might also +have a sack or two of meal about the beginning of August, when it +is most required. + +8001. Where do you buy your meal?-For the most part in +Lerwick, but I send south for a little of it. + +8002. Do you think it would be better for the people in the +country if a ready money system were introduced?-I think so. +I think it would be better for the big merchants also to pay in +money. I have had that idea all along, that it would be better +both for the merchants and the people to pay in cash. + +8003. Why would it be better for the people?-Because they +would have the cash to please themselves with, and to go +where they liked. + +8004. If they could please themselves, do you think they might be +able to buy cheaper?-Yes. + +8005. If you were getting a large ready-money business, do you +think you could sell cheaper than you do now?-I cannot say. + +8006. But if a ready-money system were introduced you would try +to do that?-Yes, I would and I think I would be able to do so, +because the money is in hands and out of hands and there are no +bad debts. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, Rev. JAMES FRASER, examined. + +8007. You have been a clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four +years?-I have. + +8008. You have an intimate acquaintance with the people who +live about you, and, among others, with the fishermen?-Yes. + +8009. You also know the system of payment and of credit +purchases which exists in the district?-I do. + +8010. Are you prepared to give any opinion as to the effect of +that system upon the circumstances and character of the people?- +Yes, I think the effect of it, to some extent, is not very good. +It is rather an extensive subject to embrace within one answer, +because there are a considerable number of people who are free +and independent; they can make their own terms; but there are a +great number of people who act on the credit system. That system +has gone on, I daresay, from time immemorial, and it has become +a great evil in the community, fraught with consequences of +different descriptions that are evil. + +8011. Are there many of the people whom you would describe as +not being free to make their own bargains?-Of course there is +hardly any person free to make his own bargain who has no ready +money, and who is always in debt; and however well they may be +dealt with by the fish-curers,-and I don't know of any case of +wrong dealing in that respect-still the people are placed at a +disadvantage. I believe the whole community are placed at a +disadvantage in consequence of that, because, from the great +amount of bad debts, the merchant must charge a higher +percentage of profit upon his goods. + +[Page 195] + +8012. In saying that there is a great amount of bad debts, do you +mean that there is a large proportion of debts in the merchants +books which are never paid?-That is what I mean. + +8013. Do you not mean that some of them are only very long +delayed, and are liquidated only when a good fishing season +comes?-Both statements are true. There are some of them +which are very long delayed, and others which are delayed for +ever, and never paid at all. + +8014. You think that both these causes oblige the merchants to +charge a higher price for goods than they otherwise would do?- +Decidedly; but there is a greater evil than that still. Sometime in +the course of Providence, an accident occurs, and families are left +destitute, and the merchant has the disagreeable alternative of +either losing his own debt, or putting the law in force and driving +the families to extremity. That, however, is never done; but in +such a case there might be an appeal to public benevolence in +order to save human life, and that appeal is always responded to. + +8015. What is the peculiarity in that case which you wish to point +out?-The peculiarity in that case is, that I should wish the people +to be placed in such circumstances that an appeal of that kind +would not need to be made. + +8016. Do you think such an appeal would be unnecessary if the +credit system did not exist?-It would be unnecessary to a certain +extent; but, at the same time, I can hardly see how to get rid of the +credit system. I believe the merchants themselves feel it to be a +much more trying thing, or at least fully as trying a thing, as I do. +I look at it from one point of view, and they suffer from it from +another. + +8017. Is it within your own knowledge that a large portion of +the people here are in a state of permanent indebtedness to the +merchants?-I don't know to what extent they may be in a state of +permanent indebtedness. I believe that a great number of them are +very seldom clear, but of course there is a large proportion of the +community who are clear from year to year. + +8018. Do you mean that there is a large proportion of the men who +are clear once in a year?-There are a great number who are +always clear. There are number of the people who have never +been in debt, and I believe never will be. + +8019. But you are speaking of those who are in debt: what may be +the proportion who are in that position?-I could not give an +accurate answer as to the extent to which a state of permanent +indebtedness prevails; but I know that it prevails to a much larger +extent than is good for the community. + +8020. Do you think it prevails to a larger extent here than in other +districts of the country?-I don't think so. + +8021. I meant than in other parts of Scotland, not of Shetland?-I +am not very well acquainted with the extent to which a credit +system prevails in Scotland. + +8022. But you think it prevails to such an extent here as to be +injurious to the independence of the people?-I think so; at least +to the independence of some of the people. + +8023. Do you think it tends to injure their truthfulness?-I don't +know to what extent it will do that; but I think that, to some extent, +when a man gets into arrears beyond what he is able to meet, he is +apt to lose heart, and to come short of what he might otherwise do +to clear himself. + +8024. Have you known cases of that description?-I don't know to +what extent cases of that description may prevail, but I know that +there are a good many people who are living this year on their next +year's earnings, and perhaps on the earnings of a year or two in +advance of that. + +8025. These are cases within your own knowledge, in which you +have derived your information from the parties you speak of?- +Yes. + +8026. They have admitted it to you?-Yes, in one way or another. +I have gained some of my knowledge from the merchants +themselves, and some from the people. + +8027. I suppose that sometimes, in the course of your +ministrations, you have occasion to inquire a little into the +circumstances of the men?-Yes, sometimes. + +8028. In a letter which you wrote in reply to circular received +from me, you gave an opinion about some proposed method of +improvement which had for its object a separation between fishing +and farming?-I have heard such a thing proposed. It has been +discussed in the public press. + +8029. Do you think the fishing could be carried on here apart from +farming?-I do not. I think the fishermen could not live without +their farms. + +8030. Are they in a different position from the fishermen on the +east coast of Scotland, in Aberdeenshire or Banffshire, who have +no farms, and who live very comfortably, as I understand, by +fishing alone?-I think they are in a very different position from +these fishermen. One reason for that is, that there are frequent +seasons occurring when there are no fish on the Shetland coast. +Another reason is, that Shetland is very far from the market; and +even although fish could be got, they could not be brought to +market at a season when an adequate return could be got for them. + +8031. But the curing might proceed in winter as it does in +summer?-It might, but the fishermen would not be able, as a +rule to keep themselves alive in winter by fishing alone. + +8032. Do you mean that they would be much more interrupted by +the weather in winter than in summer?-They would be much +more interrupted by the weather, and they would have less chance +of fish. + +8033. Are you aware whether winter fishing has been tried in +Shetland on a large scale?-Yes; not on a large scale, but it +has been tried pretty extensively. I know that from my own +experience. I tried it myself from the time when I could handle a +boat oar, until I was twenty-seven years of age. During that time I +was at the fishing every day, summer and winter, when it was +fishing weather, and living in the midst of the ocean; and I have no +hesitation in saying that if fishermen had been dependent on +fishing alone, they would have died from sheer want, leaving their +families out of the question altogether. + +8034. But at that time were there any appliances for sending out +large boats such as are now sent out in summer, and for curing the +fish when brought home?-Yes, there were appliances for curing +the fish when brought home; and little boats are much more handy +about the Shetland coast than large boats at that season of the year. + +8035. Do you think, as regards the hosiery trade, that it would be +expedient for cash to be paid instead of goods as at present?- +Sometimes it would be a convenience to the people to get cash, +but generally speaking, I believe it would make very little +difference. For instance, if a woman goes into a merchant's +shop with so much hosiery, and she wants so much goods which +the merchant can supply, she may just as well get them from him +as from anybody else. + +8036. But supposing the woman did not want goods?-Supposing +she wants money, it would certainly be more convenient for her to +get the money. + +8037. Is it the case, so far as you know, that the people are often in +want of money, and cannot get it?-I have not been aware of any +particular case in which a little money was wanted and could not +be got; but, as a general rule, money has never been paid for +hosiery in Shetland. + +8038. Are you of opinion that cases of hardship are not likely to +occur in consequence of the want of money?-I could not give +a positive answer to that question. I have heard the women +complain more of there being two prices than of any difficulty +in getting money. + +8039. The two prices you refer to are the cash price and the price +in goods?-Yes. + +8040. What is their complaint with regard to that?-They think +hosiery is sold at a disadvantage, when goods are so much dearer +because bought with hosiery. That is the principal cause of +complaint that I have heard of. + +8041. Is it understood that the goods are dearer, because they are +bought with hosiery?-That is generally [Page 196] understood; at +least in some places. There are some merchants who make it all +one price together; the same when hosiery is paid for the goods as +when they are paid for in cash. + +8042. Is that not the case with all?-It is not universally the case, + +8043. Therefore there are not only two prices for hosiery, but there +are two prices for goods bought with hosiery?-Yes; in some +places there are. + +8044. Are you aware of that from your, own knowledge, or is it +merely from a complaint among the women?-It is a complaint +among the women, and I think there is justice in it. + +8045. That is, if it exists?-Yes; and I think it does exist in some +places. + +8046. Are you aware from your own knowledge that it does +exist?-I think I am pretty certain of it. + +8047. Do you think a system of credit payments and of paying for +hosiery by goods has the effect of raising the prices of goods upon +the whole community?-I don't think the hosiery has any effect +of that description at all, so far as I know, but I think the credit +system must have that effect in a greater or less degree. Under that +system I think the credit which is most hopelessly given is in meal. +The fish-curer often finds himself in the greatest difficulty with a +family who are perhaps in want, and have no means to purchase +meal. In that case he is frequently obliged, out of compassion, to +give out meal for which he hardly expects to receive anything; or +if he does, it is a long time before it comes. + +8048. In such a case is the fisherman not under a sort of obligation +to fish for that merchant during the next year, and until his debt is +liquidated?-I think he is under such an obligation, but in some +cases it takes a long fishing before the debt is liquidated. + +8049. Do you think it is wholesome for a man to be under such a +permanent obligation to fish for the same party?-I don't think it +is wholesome for either party. But there is no help for it. + +8050. Does that produce a spirit of submission and dependence on +the part of the fishermen towards the merchant?-I don't know, +but to some extent it must. + +8051. Have you known any case in which that became very +evident?-I cannot say. I could not name any particular case. + +8052. You have not been struck by that in the course of your +experience?-No. I have a considerable amount of acquaintance +both here and in the north part of the islands of Shetland, and +I cannot say that I have been struck with any such spirit of +dependence. In the nature of things, however, it must exist more +or less. But, in my opinion, the better way to get rid of it would be +for the people to grow their own meal, and require less of it to be +supplied to them. + +8053. Do you mean that it would be an advantage if they required +to purchase less meal than they do now?-Yes. I cannot see how +the system can be got rid of, unless the people are able to cultivate +their land, and grow their own meal. + +8054. Therefore you are inclined to recommend a system of +agricultural improvement as the best thing for Shetland?-Yes. + +8055. Could that be effected without a separation between the +fishing and the farming?-I think so. I think if people were placed +in such security that they knew they were working for themselves, +so that they could spend every day or every hour that they had +leisure in improving their small crofts of land, they might grow +half as much again as they do at present. + +8056. Even upon their small holdings?-Yes; upon the greater +number of their small holdings. + +8057. And with spade labour?-Yes, with the spade, and the pick +and shovel, such as the men can manage for themselves. + +8058. Is not that a very antiquated way of cultivating the +ground?-It may be antiquated, but I don't think there is any +better way coming into operation. + +8059. Is there not ploughing?-Ploughing won't because, if the +ground of which these small crofts is composed is not broken up +with the pick, it is of very little consequence to plough it. I could +show examples of that in different parts of Shetland. Land +ploughed is not half the value of land trenched, and the fisherman +might trench a bit of land during winter for himself, and in the +course of a few years grow all that he required, or the next thing to +it, without costing the proprietor or anybody else anything. + +8060. Would he grow a much heavier crop on land cultivated in +that way with the spade, than a large farmer would if he ploughed +his fields?-Yes, a much larger crop than a large farmer would if +he ploughed that same field. I have not the slightest doubt of that. + +8061. Are you speaking now from your own observation of both +systems in Shetland?-I am. + +8062. Do you know cases where an intelligent and active small +crofter, cultivating in the way you have described with the spade, +has grown heavier crops than a farmer, equally active and equally +intelligent, has grown with plough cultivation?-Yes, upon the +same kind of ground. + +8063. Was that in this neighbourhood?-Yes. + +8064. And the circumstances in both cases being exactly the same, +except the difference between spade and plough cultivation?-I +think the difference in that case would certainly be in favour of +the larger cultivator; because I think the agricultural intelligence +should be in favour of a man who works with the plough. + +8065. You think the intelligence was perhaps superior in that +case?-I think it was superior, and the crop inferior. + +8066. Is that a thing which you have frequently +observed?-Not very frequently, because land is not very +frequently cultivated in the way I have mentioned, as the +parties cultivating it, or who should cultivate it, don't have +any security. They don't know who they are working for. +There is a man pretty near me (Mr Gifford knows him), +who has been cultivating in the way I have mentioned, and +there is another man pretty near here who is cultivating in +the way that you speak of, and there is no comparison +whatever between the crops. + +8067. Then is the remedy you suggest, a system of +lease-holding?-Yes. + +8068. Is there any reason why that does not exist in +Shetland already?-I don't know any particular reason for +it. + +8069. Have the tenants in many places not been offered +leases?-In some cases they have been offered leases, and I +believe they have refused them, but I don't know for what +reason. + +8070. Have you any observation to make upon the subject +of fixing the price of the fishermen's catch at the end of the +season?-I have no observation to make on that subject, for +I am not able to see how far it would be to the advantage +of the fisherman to fix the price beforehand. I don't think +it would be an advantage to him; indeed, I think the +fisherman would be greater loser by a fixed price than he +is just now. + +8071. Is that because he would still have to obtain his +supplies on credit?-Not so much that; but for one thing, +the merchant's or fish-curer's knowledge of what the +market is likely to be, is ahead of that of the fisherman; and +I think it holds good more or less, by common sense, that +the merchant should try to secure safety for himself in the +bargain which he makes. The probability therefore is, that +the fisherman would suffer more in that case than he does +at present. + +8072. You think the merchant has better means of +foreseeing the course of the markets than the fishermen?-I +think so; and although I believe the merchants hereabouts +would generally give the men all the advantage they could, +I cannot see how it would be possible that by fixing the +price beforehand the fisherman would be the gainer. + +8073. Is there any reason to suppose that the fishermen +have not a sufficient voice in fixing what the current price +is to be at the end of the season?-I don't think the +fishermen have any voice in that at all, and I don't know +how far the merchant or fish-curer [Page 197] has either. + It must be regulated by the south-country markets. + +8074. Would it be any advantage to the fishermen in your +neighbourhood to have periodical payments up to a certain +amount of their catch, leaving the balance to be fixed, and +the price also, or a portion of it to be fixed at the end of the +season?-I don't think that would be any advantage, and +there is one disadvantage which would certainly follow +such a system. There are some men who will take care of +their money, pay it to them when you like; but those who +take least care of it would spend it as they got it, and the +merchants having paid ready money to them, there would +be nobody who would advance anything to them when they +wished to pay their land-rent or other debts. + +8075. Are these careless men not equally apt, under the +present system, to take too much in goods, and to exhaust +their earnings too early?-Perhaps they are, but there is +some check upon them under the present system, whereas if +they got the money in their own hands there would be none. + +8076. What is the check upon them?-The merchant himself will +be a check, if a man is running an account which he is not likely to +meet. I am not able to say how far the system you have suggested +would be an advantage to the people. It might be an advantage, +but I cannot see it.* + +* The following letter was afterwards addressed to the +Commissioner by Mr. Fraser:- + SULLAM, 18<th January> 1872. + W. GUTHRIE, Esq. + SIR,-You will perhaps allow me to supplement the evidence +gave at Brae the other day by a few notes. I did not bring out all I +wished to say on the credit system. It would require more time +than could than be allowed to one witness, and more writing than I +would like to trouble you with now, to explain it fully. + +Credit has become almost a necessity in Shetland in the +present condition of the islands and it has gone on so long that +the moral ton of society has suffered in consequence of it. The +present fish-curers and merchants have not created the system; it +existed before them, and they have taken it up as a necessary evil. + +Shetland fisherman may be divided into three classes. The +first class are free men. They have never been in debt, and hope +never to be. The second class, under the present circumstances, +come in debt, but they don't like it, and get out of it as soon as +they can. The third class do not seem to have any particular +dislike to it. When the Commissioner asked me at Brae if I +had known men lose their independence by coming in debt, or +something like that, I had this class in my mind, and I was puzzled +what to say. I think the loss must have been sustained long, long +ago, for they have always appeared to me as a party who never had +anything of the sort to lose. + +The moral evils of the system to this class need not be +mentioned. I will name one or two of its physical effects. + +1. It largely increases pauperism, by raising a false standard +by which to regulate one's expenditure. When one of this class +falls from earning, he is fit only for the Parochial Board. + +2. In case of a boat accident, or in a season like 1869, the +prospect is most appalling. In that year the crop was very largely a +failure; many of the people had gone as deep in debt as they could +go; and but for the aid sent by the Society of Friends, some of the +people would assuredly have died, and a still larger number could +not have sown their ground. The timely aid sent by the Friends +and those whom they enlisted with them in their benevolent work, +prevented both these consequences. + +There are not a few families in Shetland-bereaved families, I +mean-supported by funds supplied by the benevolence of south +country ladies and gentlemen, who otherwise must have starved, or +fall with a crushing weight upon the Parochial Boards. + +Now, for all this, so far as I know, there is only one remedy- +the improvement of the soil. The people are cultivating just the +same ground their <great-grandfathers> did, and most of the ground +now cultivated has never rested in the memory of living man, or +perhaps as long before. New earth is made to supply the yearly +waste, and thus the ground in the neighbourhood of a few small +farms is so robbed as to be rendered useless for generations, +unless it happens to have earth enough to allow of laying down the +surface, and a proprietor or factor who binds the people to do it. + +There is, in general, plenty of unreclaimed land lying close by +these small farms which might be broken up and brought under +crop, and some of the old allowed to rest. In some places there are +plenty of stones to hedge in a small croft of land where grass might +be sown, but nothing is done. That unreclaimed land is made to +do duty by keeping life in a few cows-two, or more. During the +summer season, the merchant supplies the meal as long as he can, +and so things continue its they are. No man who may receive a +forty days', or even a six months', warning, is likely to exert +himself to bring more ground under crop. The thing wanted is +leasehold of the property by the tenant. But I am told the tenants +will not take a lease. It may be so; but before the statement be +admitted as true, the sort of lease offered them would require to be +seen. There are leases offered which no man of common sense +would take. There is property in Shetland, and plenty of it, that in +a 19 years lease could be made 50 per cent. better than it is, and be +a better bargain then, than now. And all this might be done +without costing the proprietor one shilling. Let him give it lease +on reasonable terms. + +There is just one thing more I would like to state. I am referring +to the evidence given last year before the Commissioner in +Edinburgh, it was then stated by Mr. Walker, that the hills were +doing the people no good, and therefore he had taken them from +them. The latter part of this statement is true, but on the former +part of it I would beg to say, the native sheep reared on these hills +supply material for knitting, and the female part of the population +are clad almost entirely from that source alone. Then the female +members of the house generally provide during the winter months +warm underclothing for the fisherman, without which he could not +pursue his hazardous occupation. Bedclothes are also largely +supplied from the same source. Leave all these to be supplied by +the fisherman from his scanty earnings, and it requires no prophet +to foretell the result. + +To say that the hills were doing the people no good, either +manifests great ignorance of the subject, or something worse.-I +am, Sir, your most obedient servant, + James Fraser. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS GIFFORD, examined, + +8077. You are the factor on the estate of Busta?-I am. + +8078. I believe that is the largest estate in Shetland?-I believe it +is. + +8079. What is the rental?-£2700. + +8080. Are there any leases on the estate?-Yes, there are a good +many. + +8081. Are these of the small holdings or of the large holdings +only?-There are leases of both. + +8082. Do the majority of the fishermen tenants have leases?-Not +the majority. + +8083. Or a considerable number?-I could hardly say there are a +considerable number; only a small number, I think. + +8084. I understand that the tenants on the Busta estate are entirely +free to fish for any person with whom they may choose to +engage?-Yes; and a great many of them go south and follow +different employments, + +8085. How many large mercantile establishments or shops are +there on the Busta property which are held by fish-curers?-Four. +There is one at Voe, one at Brae, one at Hillswick, and one at +Lochend (Mr. Laurenson's). + +8086. I presume these are all the large establishments of that kind +in the district of Delting and Northmaven, except the shop at +Mossbank?-No; Messrs. Hay & Company have one at North Roe, +at the very farthest extremity of Northmaven, and then there are +fishing stations at Stenness and Feideland. + +8087. But at these stations the fishermen are all employed by one +or other of the merchants whose places of business you have +enumerated?-Yes. + +8088. And all these merchants hold their shops under the Busta +trustees?-Yes. + +8089. Have they all leases?-Yes. + +8090. Can you tell me from recollection what the rents of these +shops are?-The shops are not separately rented; they are let along +with farms in every case. + +8091. The merchants are not tacksmen of any tenants, but they +have farms?-Yes; merely their own farms. + +8092. Is there any prohibition to sub-let on these farms?-Yes; in +every case. + +8093. What are the rents of these four parties?-£327 for the four. + +8094. In the district from Busta extending to the march of the +Gossaburgh property at North Roe, is the greater part of the land +under your management?-Yes. + +8095. The greater part of it belongs to the Busta estate?-Yes; +three-fourths of it perhaps. + +8096. Is there any understanding with the four merchants you have +mentioned, that no other shops than theirs shall be opened upon +your property?-No, a shop can be opened at any place. + +8097. Have you objected in any case to the opening of shops, lest +it should interfere with the business of these lessees?-I have not. +There are several shops that have been opened lately. + +8098. Were these small shops?-Yes; there was one you passed at +the head of the voe going to Hillswick. + +[Page 198] + +8099. Is that Arthur Harrison's?-Yes; and there is one opposite it +again, on the Roenessvoe side. + +8100. Is there any apprehension on the part of the Busta trustees +lest the rent paid by the larger establishments should be reduced by +the opening of smaller shops?-None. + +8101. Is it not the case that some difficulty was put in the way of +Harrison opening his shop?-I believe something was said about +it, but there was no reality in it. + +8102. There was an objection made to it at first, was there not?- +Yes; I believe there was some objection made, but there is nothing +in the lease that could prevent it in any way. + +8103. Nothing in what lease?-Nothing in Mr. Anderson's lease +binding us to refuse, and nothing in any lease on the Busta +property. + +8104. Is there not an obligation in some of the leases of the tenants +that no shops are to be opened on their holdings?-They are not +allowed to open shops unless they ask permission. That is only to +be done with the consent of the trustees. + +8105. You say that Harrison was refused permission at first, but +that shortly afterwards he was granted permission to open his +shop?-I did not refuse him permission at first. Some other +parties objected to him getting it, and said that no shops could be +opened within a certain distance of Hillswick. + +8106. Was it Mr. Anderson who objected?-Yes, I believe he did +object. + +8107. Was that by letter, or personally?-I don't think he objected +to me by letter. He may have mentioned it to the trustees, or their +agent, but his lease had been got some considerable time before +Harrison thought of opening the shop, so that he knew he could not +stop it. + +8108. But he did object notwithstanding?-Yes; I think he +objected at first when he was taking his lease. I think he wished +it to be put in that way. + +8109. The hesitation which existed about giving Harrison the +lease, or the delay in agreeing to give him his lease, was due, I +suppose, to Mr. Anderson's objection?-Harrison has got a lease. + +8110. He has got it now, but it was refused, or at least delayed, +when he first applied for it, was it not?-No; Harrison was only +permitted to sell lately, but he had his lease before. + +8111. But was not the permission to sell refused at first in +consequence of Mr. Anderson objecting to it?-There was +something said about it, but it was not practically refused. + +8112. Had you had any communication with Mr. Adie before +finally giving Harrison permission to sell?-None whatever. + +8113. Neither verbally nor by letter?-Neither verbally nor by +letter. + +8114. Did you understand that Harrison was going to cure fish +for Mr. Adie?-Yes; I understood he was going to cure fish for +Mr. Adie, or any other body he could get them to cure for. + +8115. And he informed you that he had made a contract with +Mr. Adie for curing fish at the time when you granted the +permission?-I think he went from Busta to Lerwick, and spoke +to Mr. Harrison and some other fish-curers, and I believe he +expected to get some from Mr. Harrison, and some from Mr. +Adie; but so far as I am aware, he has only got them from Mr. +Adie. But he was quite open to take them from any party he +could make the best bargain with. + +8116. Had you any letter from Mr. Anderson objecting to Harrison +opening a shop?-No, so far as I am aware. + +8117. You think he only wrote to some of the other trustees?-I +am not aware that he has written a letter about it since he got his +lease. I think he objected to it about the time he took his lease. + +8118. But not at the time when Harrison was wanting to sell?- +No; I think at the time when Mr. Anderson took his lease he +wished it mentioned that no other party should be allowed to sell +within four miles of him, but that was not entered in the lease. + +8119. Then do you mean that no objection was made by Mr. +Anderson to Harrison being allowed to sell goods at the time +when he (Harrison) was applying for that permission?-There is +no doubt Mr. Anderson may have objected to him, or to any other +party, doing so, but he could not do it in any way so as to affect +Harrison. + +8120. Was that because the power of granting or refusing +permission lay entirely with you?-I suppose so. + +8121. But, in point of fact, did Mr. Anderson make no objection to +you or to any of the Busta trustees, so far as you know, to Harrison +being allowed to sell?-I am not aware whether he made any +application to the trustees, or their agent. I know that he +mentioned the matter more than once but that is all I know. + +8122. He said that he thought Harrison should not get +permission?-Yes; that is all he did. I am not aware that he +wrote to the trustees on the subject after he got his lease. + +8123. But he mentioned it to you when you met him personally?- +Yes; he mentioned it more than once. + +8124. And that was about the time when Harrison was applying for +leave to open his shop?-Yes. + +8125. I presume there is no understanding between the Busta +trustees and any of the merchants whose establishments are upon +the estate that these merchants are responsible for the rents of +the men?-There is no understanding of the kind. There is not a +single tenant on the Busta estate, out of the whole 480 on it, or out +of the 530 with whom I have to do that any of the merchants is +liable for, even as a cautioner. That used to be the case some time +before but it has not been so for a long time. + +8126. Do you know, in the course of your dealings with the +tenants, whether there is any arrangement between the merchants +you have named, or any of them, to the effect that when a man +ceases to fish for one and has a debt due to him, the merchant who +engages him must undertake that debt?-There is no such +arrangement that I am aware of. Some years ago, I believe, that +was done by some parties, but I don't think it is done by any of +them now. I refer to the practice of a merchant when he engages +men taking over the debt or part of the debt which they are due to +their old employer. + +8127. You don't know about that?-Yes, I know about it. I know +that there was such an arrangement some years ago. + +8128. I suppose if Mr. Anderson told you it not given up, you +would be quite prepared to believe that that arrangement still +exists?-I believe it was given up, because in most of the cases +when a merchant took over a debt in that way, very little of the old +debt was paid. I have known parties take over with debts of £15 +and £20 standing against them, and these debts never were +reduced. + +8129. Had you any concern with that arrangement yourself?- +None whatever. I merely heard of it. + +8130. I believe most of the merchants or fish-curers are also +dealers in cattle?-I believe they are, to some extent. + +8131. They purchase them both privately and at the periodical +sales which are held for each estate?-Yes. + +8132. Would you describe shortly the nature of the sales that are +held? They are held twice a-year, are they not?-Yes, twice a-year +for the Busta and Ollaberry tenants, and they are sometimes held at +North Roe for the Gossaburgh tenants. But there are always sales +at Ollaberry and Mavisgrind, generally at the end of October, for +the tenants cattle. + +8133. What is the reason for having sales for these particular +estates?-Merely to give the tenants the advantage of having their +cattle sold. I am not aware any other reason than that. At the +Busta sale cattle belonging to other parties are taken in, as well as +cattle belonging to the tenants, although it is only for the benefit of +the tenants on the estate that the sales are held. + +8134. At these sales, are many of the cattle purchased [Page 199] +by the merchants?-A good many. With reference to my former +statement, that £327 is the rent of the four shops, I wish to explain +that that is much short of what it should be. It is nearly £450 for +the four; and my explanation of that is, that Mr. Adie has got a +large park in connection with his premises, and Mr. Inkster and +Mr. Anderson have the same at Brae and Hillswick, and they all +require to buy extensively for their parks. + +8135. Are you acquainted with the practice in this country of a +creditor marking cattle, and holding them as a kind of security for +debt?-Yes. + +8136. Is that a common thing here?-I don't know if it is +common; but I have known several cases where it has been +done. + +8137. I suppose that where a merchant does that it is not held to +interfere with the landlord's hypothec or his rent?-No. The rents +are generally paid before the merchants interfere in any way with +the cattle. + +8138. But when a merchant interferes with cattle in that way, or +purchases them in at a sale, he buys them of course subject to the +landlord's right?-If he buys them at a sale, he buys them direct +off, and pays the money for them; but if he secures the animal +privately, it generally remains with the party until it is taken away. +In a transaction of that kind, the animal is priced, and it is removed +at a convenient time for both parties. It does not come to a public +sale at all. + +8139. The animal, in that case, is retained by the tenant?-It is +marked and priced and retained by the tenant, and taken over by +the purchaser when he wants it. + +8140. The cattle are priced the time they are pledged, or marked as +it were?-I believe they are. + +8141. Is that an arrangement between the merchant and the +tenant?-Entirely. + +8142. And they arrange the price between themselves, or does +the merchant put the price on the cattle?-I think it is a mutual +arrangement, because there is much competition for cattle, that the +merchant must do that. + +8143. Do you think there is any understanding between the +merchants, that when a marked beast is exposed at any one of +these periodical sales, the other merchants shall not bid against +the merchant for whom the animal has been marked, but that it +shall be knocked down to him?-I believe that very few of the +marked animals are ever exposed at the sales, but I have known +them exposed in some cases. I have known cattle being marked in +that way, or pledged to Mr. Inkster at Brae; and if brought to the +sale, they would have been entered in his name or in the name of +the party who brought them, and the sellers would have got the full +price. + +8144. But more commonly, cattle that are so marked are taken +over by the merchant himself privately?-Yes. I have known no +other cases of parties bringing them to the sale, except Mr. Inkster. + +8145. If a merchant does take over a beast in that way privately, I +suppose you would still hold him responsible for the rent, if still +unpaid, to the extent of the value of that beast, and if the period of +your hypothec had not expired?-Certainly. + +8146. Do you often have occasion to arrange with merchants in +that sort of way?-No, very seldom. The rents are very generally +paid up. + +8147. Do you think the introduction of a system of short +settlements, if it could be effected, would improve the character +of the people on the Busta estate?-I believe it would. + +8148. You would be in favour of such a system?-Certainly I +would. + +8149. From what you know of the country and of the people, do +you think such a system would be practicable?-I don't know if it +would be practicable in some cases. With regard to the fishermen, +I don't think a short-settlement system would be practicable. + +8150. Is that because the men are so much in need of advances at +the beginning of the season?-Yes; they cannot get on until they +receive advances. There would be no fishing at all if there were +no advances. + +8151. But under another system would advances be +impracticable?-I don't know what that other system might be. + +8152. Suppose the agreement was that the fishermen were to +receive a bounty at the beginning of the season, which would +enable them to equip themselves, and that the price for the fish +was fixed at the end, so that the men would have the advantage of +any rise that might take place, would that system be a better one +than the present, in your opinion?-They would not have the +advantage of the rise if the price were fixed. + +8153. I am not supposing the price to be fixed. I am supposing the +man to get a bounty which would be calculated very considerably +within the probable value of his catch of fish for the season, and +that the settlement was made at the end according to the market +price when the fisherman would get anything additional that might +be due?-I am not aware how that system might work. + +8154. Have you any knowledge of the system adopted at Wick +with regard to the herring fishery?-Yes. I know something about +it. + +8155. Is there not some system of that kind followed there?-I +could not say just now. + +8156. Do you think the system of paying for hosiery in goods is a +good one?-No; I think it is a very bad system. I think the hosiery +should be paid for in money, and the goods sold at the same price. + +8157. Do you think the system has a bad effect in the separation of +interests it creates between the different members of the same +family?-I think it has a bad effect in this way, that some parties +would be more careful if they had their money, whereas at the +present time they don't have the chance of that. + +8158. Does the same objection apply to the long settlements with +the fishermen which you make with regard to the system of paying +for the hosiery?-Yes. There is often a long settlement in the +payment for the hosiery too. There is an account run for the +payment of hosiery with many of the women. That would not +signify so much if they were paid in cash when the settlement +comes; but I am not aware that that is done, except perhaps in a +few cases. + +8159. Do you think women are induced under the present system +to take more articles of dress than they require?-Not of dress. + +8160. But they take anything they require unless money?-Some +of them take provisions, and meal, and tea. + +8161. In your part of the country, are provisions given for hosiery +as well as goods?-Yes, and I know that hereabout a little cash is +given too, but in very exceptional cases.* + + +*Mr. Gifford handed in the following statement, showing the +number of holdings on the Busta and other estates under his charge +and the amount of rent- + +<No. of holdings on Busta. No. of holdings on other properties.> + + Under £1 29 Under £1 2 + " 2 38 " 2 2 + " 3 53 " 3 5 + " 4 83 " 4 4 + " 5 101 " 5 8 + " 6 92 " 6 9 + " 7 86 " 7 8 + " 8 19 " 8 4 + " 9 11 " 9 4 + " 10 2 " 12 2 + " 12 7 " 14 1 + " 14 4 Larger holdings 1 +Larger holdings 5 50 + 480 +Total rental, £2701 13 8 Total rental, £344 2 0 + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, Mrs. CHRISTIAN JOHNSTON, examined. + +8162. Are you the wife of a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-My +husband was a fisherman once, but he does not fish now. + +8163. Do you knit or weave?-I both knit and make gray cloth. + +[Page 200] + +8164. Do you sell both these articles at Brae or in Lerwick?-I sell +them to any person that I get the wool from. I don't have wool of +my own. + +8165. By whom are you generally employed?-I have made some +gray cloth for Mr. Anderson and some for Mr. Adie. + +8166. Is it mostly gray cloth that you make?-Yes. + +8167. Do you go to the shops and get the wool when you are out of +it?-Yes. + +8168. Do you buy it, or is it given to you?-We buy it. + +8169. When you go back with it, are you paid for the work which +you have put upon it?-We buy the wool, and then they buy the +cloth from us again. + +8170. What do you pay for the wool?-I bought 28 lbs. of it, and it +was 1s. a lb. + +8171. Do you spin it yourself?-Yes. + +8172. How do you make the cloth?-There are men on the islands +called wabsters who weave it. + +8173. Then you spin the wool and take it to the wabsters to +weave?-Yes. + +8174. Do you pay for the wool when you get it at first?-We +cannot pay for the wool until we get the cloth. + +8175. Is it put down in your account?-Yes. + +8176. And you are charged 1s. for it?-Yes. + +8177. Do you take your web back to the merchant, or does the +wabster take it to him?-I take the web and dress it, and go to the +merchant with it. + +8178. Who pays the wabster?-The merchant of course; it comes +off what I have to get. + +8179. Is the wabster paid at the time when he does the work, or +when you come back from the merchant?-I pay him when I come +back from the merchant after I have sold the cloth. + +8180. How much cloth would you make out of 28 lbs. of wool?-I +made 27 yards out of it. + +8181. You make about a yard of cloth out of a pound of wool?- +Yes; that is generally the way of it when it is ordinary wool. + +8182. What is the price put upon the cloth when you take it back to +the merchant?-That is just as the price stands; sometimes the +price is up and sometimes not. + +8183. But you spoke of a particular time when you got 28 lbs. of +wool: was that long ago?-I got it in Christmas week, and I went +back with it in the month of April. + +8184. What did you get for it?-I got 2s. a yard. + +8185. That would be 1s. a yard, for your work and the wabster?- +Yes. + +8186. Is that about an ordinary price?-It was the price that was +given then. + +8187. Do you sometimes get more than that?-Yes; if the price is +up. I have got as high as 3s. 5d. for it. + +8188. Was that long ago?-It is a few years since; I cannot +recollect exactly. + +8189. How are you paid for the cloth: do you get money for it?- +Some pay in money and some not. + +8190. Where do you get money?-I have got money in Mr. Adie's. + +8191. Did you get money at that time when you went in April?- +No. + +8192. Why?-I don't know. + +8193. What did you get?-I had just to take anything that was in +the shop + +8194. Were you told that you would not get money?-Yes. + +8195. Did you want money?-Of course, I wanted a little. + +8196. How much did you ask for?-I asked for the wabster's +money. It was rather more than 6s. + +8197. Did you get it?-Yes. + +8198. Did you say you had to pay the wabster?-Yes; he was an +old man, and I had to pay him. + +8199. Why did you not get the rest in money?-The merchant +made an objection that he would not. + +8200. Why?-I don't know why. + +8201. Did he say the bargain was that was to be paid in goods?- +No, he could not say that. + +8202. Why? Had you agreed upon a price before?-No. + +8203. You were just to take the price that was the market price +when you brought the cloth back?-Yes. + +8204. Did you offer to take a less price if he gave the money?-He +would give no money at all. + +8205. Are you ever paid in money for your cloth?-Yes. I have +been paid in money for some cloth. + +8206. Is it a general thing in the country to pay in money, or to pay +in goods?-When people have wool of their own, they make a +difference. + +8207. How would they make a difference?-Because if the wool +had belonged to me I could have gone to any other merchant and +sold it, but the wool was his. + +8208. Was not the wool your own in this case?-If I had been able +to pay for the wool when I took out, then it would have been my +own. + +8209. You mean that you got the wool on credit?-Yes. + +8210. You had bought the wool, but you had not paid for it?-Yes. + +8211. It was entered against you at 1s. a pound?-Yes. + +8212. Then the wool was your own, although you might be owing +Mr. Adie money for the price?-It was not Mr. Adie that that wool +belonged to: it was Mr. Anderson that I got it from. + +8213. And he would not give you the money at all?-He would +not. + +8214. Why did you not take it to somebody else and sell it for, +money? If you had done that, you could then have sent the 28s. to +Mr. Anderson, which you were due to him for the wool: did you +not think of doing that?-No; I did not think of doing it. + +8215. Could you have done that?-I might; I don't know; I never +asked. + +8216. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have objected, or would +he have allowed you to take the cloth away again after you had +brought it?-I cannot say because I never asked about that. + +8217. Did you ever ask money before with which to pay the +wabster?-Yes. + +8218. Did you get it?-I have got money before from Mr. +Anderson himself,-money to pay the wabster. + +8219. Did you get as much as you wanted for that purpose?-Yes; +just for the wabster. + +8220. But not for your own work?-No. + +8221. You had to take what was due you for your own work in +goods?-Yes. + +8222. I suppose you always wanted these goods for your own +use?-We are always needing goods. + +8223. But were you quite content to take the goods in place of +money?-Yes, sometimes. + +8224. You would rather have had the money sometimes?-Yes. + +8225. But was it not the rule in the trade, and was it not the +bargain made with you, that you were to take goods, and not to +seek money?-No; there was no bargain made about it. + +8226. Is it not the understanding in the trade that the cloth is to be +paid for in goods and not in money?-I don't know. + +8227. Have you made any cloth since that?-Yes. I made a piece +for Mr Adie, but I got the money for it. + +8228. Did you get money for the whole value?-Yes. + +8229. Or was it just what you required for the wabster?-No; I got +money for all that I had to get. + +8230. Did you get the wool on that occasion from Mr. Adie?- +Yes. + +8231. He just charged you for the wool and gave you the whole +balance for your work in money?-Yes. + +8232. What quantity was there of that?-I don't recollect; we are +always getting something out of the shop. + +8233. Then you did not get the whole price of your work at that +time in money?-No; I had got something out of the shop before +that I was needing. + +8234. You were due an account at the shop?-Yes. + +[Page 201] + +8235. Was that account as much as the value of the cloth?-No. + +8236. You had something over to get?-Yes. + +8237. Did you get what was over in money?-Yes, I got £1. + +8238. Was that lately?-It was before Christmas. + +8239. Do you keep an account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-No, I keep +no account. + +8240. But you had an account at the time when you settled for that +cloth?-Yes. + +8241. How long had that account been running?-For about two +years. + +8242. Did you go and get the wool and make the cloth in order to +settle up that account?-Yes. + +8243. Was your husband fishing at the time when you were due +that account?-No; it was my own account. + +8244. Is it a usual thing for a woman, when she is making cloth in +that way, to have an account of her own with the merchant?-Yes. + +8245. She gets the goods she wants and then settles for them when +she brings the cloth?-Yes. + +8246. How often do you settle when you have an account running +in that way?-It is not often that I make the cloth, for I have very +little time in which to make it. + +8247. Do you ever knit?-I knit very little except what is required +for my own family. + +8248. Do any of your daughters help you in making the cloth or in +knitting?-Yes. + +8249. You all work at it?-Yes. + +8250. Have you separate accounts, or do you all keep the same +account with the merchant for your cloth?-We all keep the same +account. We have no separate accounts. + +8251. Do you think you would be better off if you got the whole +payment of your cloth in money?-We might be better, but we are +always needing something from the merchant. + +8252. You don't think you could buy your goods any cheaper if +you had money?-I don't know. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, MRS GRACE WILLIAMSON, examined. + +8253. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes. + +8254. Do you knit and also make cloth?-Yes. + +8255. Have you heard what Mrs. Johnston said just now?-Yes. + +8256. Have you the same way of dealing about your cloth which +she has described?-No. I do not make any cloth except with +what little wool I have of my own, and I sell it. I am paid for it +just at the price which is going. + +8257. Are you paid for it in money or in goods?-I get the price +either in goods or in money, either way I choose to ask it. + +8258. Do you generally get the same price for your cloth if you +take it in money?-Yes. I sold a piece this winter to Mr. Adie, and +I got the same in money for it as I would have got in goods. + +8259. How much did you sell?-I sold about 30 yards. + +8260. What was the price of it?-3s. 1d. + +8261. Was the price higher then than it was in April?-Yes. + +8262. Was your cloth better than Mrs. Johnston's?-I do not +know. + +8263. Was that paid to you altogether in money?-No; I took some +goods. + +8264. Had you an account at the shop at that time?-No. I never +had any kind of credit in the shop before. I did not mark anything. + +8265. Had you got anything before from the shop at all?-No. + +8266. You just took some goods at the time when you took in the +cloth?-Yes. + +8267. What was the price of the goods you bought?-I can +scarcely recollect. + +8268. Was it £2 or £3?-No; I think it was something more than +£1, but I cannot recollect. + +8269. And you got the rest in money?-Yes. + +8270. That would be £3 or £4 you would get in money?-I don't +recollect what it was. My husband was along with me, and I did +not keep an account for myself. + +8271. Was it your husband that took in the cloth?-He and I were +together. + +8272. Have you always continued dealing in the same manner, +getting what you wanted in goods, and as much as you required in +money?-Yes, of course. Mr. Inkster is the only merchant we +have any credit with. + +8273. Have you an account with Mr. Inkster?-Yes. + +8274. Does your husband fish for him?-Yes. + +8275. And do you sell cloth to him too?-Yes; I sold some last +year to him. + +8276. Have you a book with him?-No; we don't keep any +account ourselves. The things are entered in the book which +he keeps himself. + +8277. Have you an account with him in your own name as well +as your husband?-I don't have any account in my name. One +account serves for us both. + +8278. Is it customary in these parts for one account to do for both +husband and wife?-I don't know about any one except myself. + +8279. Do you knit any?-A little but the cloth is the most that I do. + +8280. Do you get money for your cloth at Mr. Inkster's place if +you want it?-Yes, we get money if we ask for it. + +8281. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year +when you settle?-Yes. + +8282. That balance is for your husband's fish and for your +cloth?-Yes. + +8283. That is to say, what you have to get for your fish and your +cloth is a good deal more than you have to pay for things you have +got out of the shop?-Of course it is. + +8284. And you have to pay your rent out of that balance?-Yes. + +8285. Have you always been in the habit of getting money for your +wabster?-Yes; when we require money and ask for it we get it. + +8286. Would you have got as much money two or three years ago +as you got the last time you went with cloth?-No; cloth was not +so high last year as it was then. + +8287. But suppose you had, two or three years ago, taken a web +that was worth £4, would you have got £2 or £3 in money on the +price of it?-Yes, if I had asked for it I would have got it. + +8288. Would you have got that five years ago if you had been +selling it at that time?-I don't know about five years ago. I don't +recollect. + +8289. Did you ever get as much money before as you got on that +last occasion?-Yes; but we took goods when we required them. +There were some years ago when we were getting a bigger price. +Mr. Anderson gave 3s. 8d. out-takes (<i.e.> in goods), and 3s. 5d. +in money; but I don't recollect how long ago that was. + +8290. Then there were two prices for your cloth?-Yes. + +8291. Did you ever sell £4 worth of cloth four or five years ago?- +I don't think it. + +8292. Did you ever sell £2 worth?-I think so. + +8293. Did you ever get one-half or three-fourths of that in +money?-I cannot recollect; it was always my husband who +went with it, and he would recollect better. + +8294. Did you ever get above 5s. in money for your wabster before +this time?-Yes; we have got more than that, if we asked for it. + +8295. How much more?-I cannot say exactly. We just got what +we asked, unless the price was all the lower. + +8296. Did you ever get 10s. in cash before?-Yes. + +8297. Did you ever get 15s. in cash?-Yes. + +[Page 202] + +8298. Or £1?-Yes: I have got that too, if I had to get, and if I was +not taking out goods. + +8299. If you got £1, how much would be the price of the web +which you took in?-I could not say unless I recollected exactly +what number of yards there were. + +8300. But you said you never sold as much as £4 worth before?-I +don't mind about that. I may have done it, but I don't recollect. + +8301. Do you ever mind of selling £3 worth?-Yes. + +8302. Did you ever get £1 in cash out of that?-Yes; I would have +got £1 out of that. + +8303. But did you get it?-Well, we have got it, but I cannot mind +the time exactly. + +8304. Do you think it has been easier to get cash for your webs +during the last year than it was before?-It may have been; but we +were always needing goods, and it is just as well for us to take +goods when we are needing them, as to get money and go +anywhere else farther off. Of course, if we did not get goods +here at a reasonable price, we might get them farther off. + +8305. I suppose you know that you want the goods yourself?- +Yes. + +8306. And you know that the merchant would rather sell you the +goods than give you money?-I cannot say that I ever saw any +case with any merchant I ever dealt with where he would not give +us the money if we had asked for it. I never was much in debt to +any merchant. + +8307. But it was mostly your husband that took the goods in?- +Yes. I never was much in with any merchant, and therefore I +could go to any place where thought I could get most for my work. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, MARGARET WILLIAMSON, examined. + +8308. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes. + +8309. Do you knit or make cloth?-I knit mostly, but I make some +cloth too. I knit men's shirts and women's sleeves. + +8310. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have to buy some but I +have some of my own too. + +8311. The wool was not given out to you to knit?-No. + +8312. Where do you sell what you knit?-For the last three years I +have sold it in Lerwick. + +8313. Do you always go to Lerwick with it?-Yes, with all that I +knit. + +8314. Do you always get goods for your knitting?-Yes; I get +goods, because I can get nothing else. + +8315. Do you want to get money?-I hardly ever ask for money. I +asked for a penny the last time out of 35s., and they refused to give +it to me. I bought all that I could buy out of the work I had taken +in and when it came to the last penny I asked for it, but they would +not give it. That was at Mr. Linklater's. + +8316. What did he say he would give it in: sweeties?-No; they +would not keep any sweeties for fear of having to give them. + +8317. What did they give you?-They gave me the penny at +length, but they said we must take goods. + +8318. Did you need all these goods for your own use?-I needed +them all at that time, but I don't need them all now. If I knit any, I +need hardly any goods now. + +8319. If you were knitting now, you would rather have the +money?-Yes; because I am needing hardly anything else. + +8320. Do you live with your parents?-Yes. + +8321. I suppose you would like to help them a little in keeping the +house if you could get money for your knitting?-Yes; because my +father is an old man, and is very sickly, and he is not able to keep +the house as he used to do. + +8322. Is it the case that you cannot help him because you cannot +get money for your knitting?-Yes; I cannot help him in that way. + +8323. Have you ever given away any of the goods you have got to +your neighbours for money or for provisions?-No; I kept them all +to myself. + +8324. Do you sell the cloth you make in the same way that Mrs. +Johnston and Mrs. Williamson have stated?-Yes. + +8325. You get some wool from the merchant?-Yes. + +8326. And that is set down against your name in an account?- +Yes; until the cloth is brought back to the shop. + +8327. When the cloth is brought back, the price the wool is +deducted?-Yes. + +8328. Do you get the balance in money?-Yes always in money, if +I like to take it in money. + +8329. Do you sometimes take it in goods?-I generally take it in +money, because I am not needing goods. + +8330. Do you think you would get a bigger price if you took it in +goods?-Sometimes it is all the same. This year it is all the same +whether you take money or goods. + +8331. But some years it is different?-Yes, a little. + +8332. Does the merchant tell you generally that he would rather +you were to take the price out in goods?-No. The most of the +cloth which I have made has been for Mr. Adie, and he gives me +the money just soon as the goods. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, GIDEON WILLIAMSON, examined. + +8333. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am. + +8334. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes. + +8335. Whom do you fish for generally?-For Inkster. I have +fished for him for five years. + +8336. Do you settle every year in the spring?-We settle at +Hallowmas for the twelve months. + +8337. Do you always deal in Mr. Inkster's shop-Yes; I deal +oftenest there. + +8338. What do you go for elsewhere?-It is very trifling. My +dealings are mostly with him. + +8339. Is that because you fish for him?-Yes. + +8340. Have you an account?-Yes. + +8341. Are you obliged to deal on credit?-Yes, sometimes I am, +because I must have supplies. + +8342. Is that the reason why you go to his shop?-No. I would +just as soon deal with him, if I had money, as I would go +elsewhere. + +8343. Is there any other place hereabout where you could deal?- +Yes; but I would just as soon deal with Mr. Inkster as with any +other man. + +8344. Are you generally behind at the settlement?-Sometimes I +am a little. + +8345. But sometimes you have a balance to get in cash?- +Sometimes; but sometimes the seasons are so bad that I have +to go to him for a little supplies. + +8346. I suppose that is the reason why you continue to fish for +him? If you owe him a little money, you don't like to go and fish +for another man?-I don't see what I could get by fishing for +another; I pay him the same for his goods, and he pays me the +same for my fish as another would do. + +8347. Are his goods of as good a quality as in other shops?-Yes. + +8348. Have you known any fishermen who have left one employer +and gone to fish for another?-No; not that I could point out. + +8349. A man generally continues to fish for the same merchant?- +Yes; unless it may be a man who changes and goes south. + +8350. But if he remains in the same place, does he generally go on +fishing for the same merchant for years?-Yes; but I have heard of +some of them shifting. + +8351. What do they shift for generally?-They may shift to get +chances in boats belonging to other curers. + +8352. They think they may be better off perhaps by getting into +another crew?-Yes. + +[Page 203] + +8353. Do men sometimes want to shift to another crew or another +master, and are prevented from doing so because they are in +debt?-I have never tried that. + +8354. Do you know whether that is ever the case?-I could not +answer that question, because I would not like to say anything I +was not sure about. + +8355. I suppose you would not think of leaving Mr. Inkster so long +as you were in his debt?-Even if I was clear with him, I see no +good I could do to myself by leaving him. If I ask him for money, +I get it, just the same as out-takes; and I get out-takes from him, +just the same as if I was paying down ready money for them. + +8356. Do you think you would be any better off if you had not to +run such a long account?-I don't know. A poor man generally +can have very little until it comes perhaps to the twelvemonth's +end; and if it were not that we have sometimes a beast to sell, +or something like that, we would have very little to live on +throughout the year, because the fishing time is only for about +three months in the summer. + +8357. You think if you were settled with at shorter periods, you +would not have enough to carry you through the year?-Yes. + +8358. And you could not settle with the merchant at the end, +because the account you have to pay is bigger than what you have +to get?-Yes. + +8359. Is that sometimes the case?-Yes; because for some years +there has been a good deal of bread to get in consequence of lean +crops, and that brings the poor fishermen very much down. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN WOOD, examined. + +8360. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am. + +8361. Do you fish for Mr. Inkster?-Yes. + +8362. Have you heard what Gideon Williamson said?-Yes. + +8363. Is your way of dealing the same as he has described?-Yes; +the very same. + +8364. Have you anything different to say?-No. + +8365. How long have you fished for Mr. Inkster?-Nine years. + +8366. Have you ever wished to change?-No. + +8367. Do you always get your supplies from him?-Yes. + +8368. Are you generally somewhat behind at the end of the +year?-Sometimes. + +8369. Who did you fish for before?-Mr. Anderson. + +8370. Why did you leave him?-Because it was more convenient +for us where we lived to fish for Mr. Inkster. + +8371. Were you clear with Mr. Anderson when you left him?- +Very nearly. I think I was due him £1 or so. + +8372. When did you pay that up?-Mr. Inkster paid it up for me. +He sent it to Mr. Anderson at the end of the season. + +8373. Is that a usual thing to do when a man has shifted?-Yes, + +8374. His new employer pays up the whole of his debt?-Yes. + +8375. Have you heard of that being done often?-Yes; I have +heard of it being done. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, examined. + +8376. You are a tenant on the Busta estate?-Yes. + +8377. Do you fish any?-No. + +8378. I understand you have come here to say something about +your line of life and its bearing upon this inquiry: what is it?-My +principal means of living is that I get an annuity for keeping some +pauper lunatics belonging to several parishes, Delting and +Tingwall, and so forth. + +8379. What have you got to say about that?-At the time when I +commenced to do that, I unfortunately was not clear with the man +who now supplies me. + +8380. Who is that?-Mr. Thomas Adie. + +8381. Had you been a fisherman before?-No; I had been a sawyer +for many years. + +8382. Had you kept an account at Voe?-Yes. + +8383. Were you behind with it?-Yes, a little. + +8384. How much?-I could not exactly say, but it was a good deal. + +8385. Was it £20?-Perhaps more at times, and sometimes less; +but we will say it was that. + +8386. What have you to say about it?-I want to speak about the +way of supply, and the prices of provisions and other things; I +never had my money at command. + +8387. How long ago is it since you had that debt?-It is perhaps +ten years ago since I commenced with one pauper, and then I got +another one. I gave Mr. Adie leave to draw my money with which +to settle my accounts, and I got supplies from him. + +8388. Where do you draw your money from?-From the parishes +that I had got the lunatics from. + +8389. Was it because you were due Mr. Adie money when you left +that you gave him leave to draw your money?-It was not that +altogether. It was quite right, when I was due him an account, that +he should be paid for it, but he drew my money from the parishes +and supplied me with meal. Perhaps I required ten or twelve sacks +a year. I do not get it all from him now. If I had had the use of my +money, I might have tried to settle the old account with Mr. Adie +and have got my meal where I liked, but I could not do that. With +the money I could have got my articles at cost price. I asked my +money from Mr. Adie, but he refused to give it me some years ago. + +8390. He refused to give it you because you had made an +arrangement with him that he was to draw the money?-Yes; +not to lay it out, but only to draw it for me. + +8391. Was it not the arrangement that he was to draw it for you +in order that he might pay his own debt?-We never had any +arrangement of that kind, but that was perhaps considered to be +the arrangement both by him and me. I would have done that +willingly. + +8392. Have you squared up your accounts with Mr. Adie at any +time?-It is a good while since I was able to do that without +injuring me otherwise; but Adie having the use of my money, I +got my things from him. + +8393. What was the account for which was due to Mr. Adie?-For +meal principally, and clothing. + +8394. Have you got an account?-Yes; it is in Mr. Adie's book at +Voe. + +8395. Have you gone over every year at settling time and squared +up your account, and seen how much you were due to him, or how +much he was due to you, at the end of the year?-Sometimes I +did and sometimes not. I knew that I was not able to meet that +account, because I did not have the use of my money. If I wanted +a dozen sacks of meal, I was always told that there was 2s. a sack +as commission for the risk of getting it, and ultimately I wrote +to the meal dealers in the south, and I found that there was a +difference of 10s. on the sack of meal; that, upon 12 sacks, would +have been a saving of £6 alone. + +8396. Did you give Mr. Adie an order to the inspector to pay the +money to him which was due to you?-Yes, I told Mr. Adie to +draw it for me, and I signed an order that he was to draw it. + +8397. And he has drawn it ever since?-Yes. + +8398. Was that for the money which you were to get from Delting +parish?-Yes. + +8399. Is Mr. Adie a member of the Parochial Board of that +parish?-Yes. + +8400. Is he the chairman?-I don't know. + +8401. Who is the inspector of that parish?-Mr. Louttit. + +8402. What do you think can be done for you?-I made my +complaint to Mr. Adie lately about the state of these things; but +it is not my wish to mention the names of any parties. It is only +the practice that I object to. + +[Page 204] + +8403. What practice do you refer to?-This truck system, and the +enormous prices that are charged. + +8404. What have you to say about the prices? You have told me +that you can save £6 on 12 sacks of meal by dealing south?-Yes, +by dealing with Tod Brothers. I wrote to them about it, and they +answered me. + +8405. Have you got their answer?-No, I have not got it, but I +remember it quite well. + +8406. How long ago was that?-Just two or three years since. + +8407. What was the price of Mr. Adie's meal at that time?-It was +34s. per sack for Indian corn meal. + +8408. What was the price of Messrs. Tod Brothers'?-22s. + +8409. That was it difference of 12s. per sack?-Yes, but it left me +to pay the freight, which would be about 2s. 6d. + +8410. Could you have got the meal brought up here for 2s. 6d.?- +Yes, or whatever the 'Queen of the Isles' charged. + +8411. How many sacks of Indian corn meal would you require in it +year?-Perhaps about a dozen sacks. + +8412. Do you feed the lunatics on that meal?-No, not the +lunatics, but my own family, and sometimes the lunatics too. + +8413. Have you made any comparison between the prices charged +at Mr. Adie's shop and elsewhere?-Yes. I could buy it at Mr. +Robertson's store, at Vidlin, for 27s.; that, upon 12 sacks, would +make it difference 4s. between the two places. + +8414. Could you not have got your meal from Mr. Robertson's +store?-I got some of it, because I kept a party from Lunnasting, +and I got part of my supplies there. + +8415. Did you get your supplies for that lunatic from +Lunnasting?-Occasionally, when I asked them. + +8416. Had you an account there?-Yes; I could either get money +or anything that I wanted which was due. I could not have done +that with Mr. Adie; and therefore I have never been able to get +clear of my debt to him. + +8417. Did you bring your supplies all the way from Mr. +Robertson's store to where you lived?-Yes. + +8418. Was that because you kept a lunatic pauper from that +parish?-Yes. I took advantage of that, because I could get my +goods cheaper there but I could have got money as well, and have +gone to any other place with it. If I had had money to get from Mr. +Adie, I would have got it from him too with good will, but I never +had it to get, and it is that which has kept me deeper and deeper in +spite of all I could do. + +8419. Could you not have gone to the Parochial Board of Delting, +and got your money whenever you pleased, instead of letting Mr. +Adie draw it?-I might have got it, but Mr. Adie at one settlement +made up a line, and I was compelled to sign it, that he was to draw +all the money which I had to get for the lunatic from that parish. I +signed it because he wrote me a letter saying I was to come down +and pay my account, and then to transfer my custom, which I was +not able to do without leaving me destitute. + +8420. Have you got that letter?-No. + +8421. What did you do with it?-I just destroyed it carelessly. + +8422. How long ago was that?-I could not exactly say. If I state +it incorrectly, it is not done willingly, but it may have been three +years since. At the same time I asked Mr. Adie to give me the use +of my money, and to keep some of it in order to pay the old +account, but he did not do it, and that is the main cause why I am +so far behind. I could have had my account with him paid by the +profits I could have saved from dealing in the south; I am perfectly +sure of that. + +8423. But if you wanted your money, why could you not have gone +to the Parochial Board and told them to pay you, and not to regard +Mr. Adie's orders about it?-What would have become of what I +was due to Mr. Adie if I had got the money from the Parochial +Board? It was my duty, and I had to pay it to him. At that very +time Mr. Adie told his shopman not to supply me unless I came to +his shop with cash. + +8424. But you wanted to stop going to him because you thought +you could get your supplies cheaper elsewhere?-If I had got my +supplies in the south, I could have paid him something yearly and +lived better. I was making my complaint to Mr. Adie lately, and +he promised (and no man was ever deceived in anything that Mr. +Adie ever promised, neither was I) that for the future I should get +my things at cash price. So far as I am concerned, I have no cause +of complaint now; but that has been the cause why I am in debt. + +8425. How long ago was that arrangement made about getting +your things at cash price?-It may be two or three months ago, and +I have got a part of the debt realized since. I have no reason to +doubt Mr. Adie's word, or that of any of his sons. + +8426. You have one lunatic from Delting, and you have another +from Lunnasting?-Yes. I have not got a lunatic from Lunnasting, +but a pauper that I keep at a separate house. + +8427. But in consequence of having that pauper you get some +supplies at Vidlin?-Yes. + +8428. Who pays you for the keep of that pauper?-The inspector, +Mr. John Anderson, of Lunnasting. + +8429. Was there any arrangement made when you got that pauper, +that you were to take supplies at Vidlin?-None whatever; it is by +my own will that I go there. I can get money, or anything I like; +but when I find it convenient, and that the goods are cheaper there +than elsewhere, I go and take them. + +8430. Are Vidlin and Voe the only places where you get +supplies?-Yes; I have dealt with Mr. Adie for thirty years; +and I have no cause of complaint against him, except the +enormous price which he generally charges for his goods. + +8431. Is there any other article which you could name besides +meal which is charged at an enormous price?-This place is +farther north, and the goods here should be charged a shade +dearer, because there is more expense in bringing them. + +8432. But can you mention any one article, such as cotton or +cloth, which is dearer here than at Lerwick?-You can make a +better bargain in Lerwick than in the north. + +8433. Have you done that frequently?-Yes. + +8434. You only keep three paupers?-Yes. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES ROBERTSON, examined. + +8435. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I was a fisherman at +one time, but I am not fishing now; I am too old to go to sea. + +8436. Has it always been the practice of the fishermen there to +deal with the merchants they sell their fish to?-Yes; for forty +years back. I have been about thirty years in the fishing. + +8437. Have you been at the Faroe fishing?-No; I always went to +the ling fishing. + +8438. Did you always keep an account with the merchant who +employed you?-Yes. + +8439. Did you always fish for the same merchant?-Yes, for John +Anderson & Co. and for Mr. Leisk, who was there before them. + +8440. You always had an account at Hillswick?-Yes. + +8441. Did you always go to Hillswick for your supplies?-No; +only twice a year. I went for my fishing gear before the season +began, and then at the end of the season I went again to settle. + +8442. Did you get supplies then?-Yes, if I needed them. + +8443. Did you always get the balance in cash when it was due?- +Very often it was not due, and I could not expect a thing which +was not due. + +8444. Why was it not due?-Because of the bad [Page 205] +fishings, and of the meal being very dear then; much more so +than it is now. + +8445. Did you always get more supplies than the value of your +fish?-No, I did not do that always. + +8446. But generally?-No, not at any time; I always tried to deal +so as not to be in debt. + +8447. But you said there was seldom anything to get at settling?- +There was very seldom any cash that I had to take, because they +were lean fishings. + +8448. And because you had got supplies up to the value of your +fish?-No; but I did not ask for any supplies beyond what I +required for the fishing, and perhaps a little meal for my family, +which they could not do without. + +8449. But the price of that was generally as much you had to get at +settlement?-It was. + +8450. Was it ever more?-Not very often. + +8451. Did you ever think of changing from one employer to +another?-No, I did not think of that, because I did not see any +good it could do me. + +8452. Do you think you would not have got a better price?-No. + +8453. And you would not have got better supplies from another +merchant?-The only merchant I ever dealt with was Mr. Inkster, +because his shop is nearest to me, and I always found his goods as +cheap as any other man's. + +8454. Would it not have been far more convenient for you to have +got all your goods from Mr. Inkster's, instead of carrying them +from Hillswick?-Yes; but with regard to lines and hooks, and +such things as we require for the fishing, we could not get them +from Mr. Inkster, because we were bound to go for them to the +man that we fished for. + +8455. How long is it since you gave up fishing?-About eight +years ago. + +8456. You continued to go to the merchant for whom you fished +until that time?-Yes. + +8457. Did you never think of fishing for Mr. Inkster?-No, +because the men I fished with in the boat wanted to go to Mr. +Anderson, and I did not want to make discord in the boat's crew. + +8458. Have you heard the evidence of the other witnesses from +Muckle Roe, Gideon Williamson and John Wood?-Yes. + +8459. Is there anything additional that you want to say?-No. + +8460. Do you think the fishermen are generally quite free to +engage to fish to any employer they like?-They are quite right +to engage to any man that would give the best bargain and the +best agreement, and that is the thing they should do. + +8461. But they would just get as good a bargain from one +merchant as from another?-Yes, equally the same because it +appears that one fish merchant won't pay more for his fish +than another does. + +8462. So that the fishermen would have no advantage in +changing?-No. + +8463. They cannot better themselves by shifting?-They cannot. + +8464. Has that been your experience since you have been a +fisherman?-It has been my experience all my life, and many +besides me have found the same thing. + +8465. They would like to better to themselves, but they could +not?-That is the very thing. + +8466. Do you think they would be better by curing their own +fish?-They have no chance of curing their own fish, because +those who do so have to find booths for them until the crafts come +to take away the cured fish. Besides, poor men like fishermen +cannot do that. + +8467. They have to buy salt for the curing, and that costs a lot of +money?-Yes. + +8468. So that they are obliged to give their fish green to the +merchant?-Yes. + +8469. Have you ever known men to make any attempt to cure fish +for themselves?-I have. + +8470. Have they not been any better off in that way?-If the +fish-curers had been agreeable to them doing that, they would have +made a little off it. They would have saved, perhaps, a few pounds +on the ton, but they could not find booths in which to put their fish +at the season when they require to be housed. They had to pay +cellar rent to the parties to whom the booths belonged. + +8471. Could they sell their fish at as good a price as the curers +could?-No. They could not seek out for purchasers in the south +country as the curers can do, and they were obliged to sell their +fish to the Shetland merchants and at the price which was current +here. + +8472. Don't you think the men would be better off if they could +get payment for their fish earlier in the season, and could go and +deal at any store they liked for their goods?-I don't know that +that would be any advantage to them, because they know by +experience that their earnings are very small, and they could not +afford to take them in that way. They must try to save their +earnings for their rents, and for the maintenance of their families. + +8473. But if they got their money in their hand, instead of running +an account, would they not make a better use of it?-I don't know. +Some of them might be inclined to do so and some not. + +8474. Might they not buy their goods cheaper if they had the +money to pay for them?-Some of them might, but some of them +might spend their money very carelessly. + +8475. Did you hear what Gilbert Scollay said about getting meal +cheaper in the south than it can be got here?-We all know that +that is the case. + +8476. Have any of you tried to get it in that way?-No. + +8477. Why?-From want of knowledge. We don't know where to +go in order to find the cheapest market for meal. + +8478. But Gilbert Scollay found out where to go and he would +have told you?-Gilbert Scollay might have done that, but we +never like to deal in the kind of meal which he bought. + +8479. You could have got any sort of meal if you had asked it?- +Yes, he would have got any sort. + +8480. And so would you if you had gone to the right quarter. +Don't you think if a lot of you now were to agree to buy meal from +a man in the south, and were getting the price of your fish in cash, +so that you could pay for the meal in cash, you would be able to +make a better thing of it?-There is no mistake about that. + +8481. What is to hinder a boat's crew or two from agreeing to +bring their own meal from the south?-The fish-curer must +supply them with money before they could do that. + +8482. Will not the curer advance money to the men if they want +it?-It would just be at his own option. + +8483. Do you think the fish-curer would not give you the money +before the end of the season?-I don't know, I never asked it, and +what a man has not asked he cannot speak to at all. + +8484. Do you think he would be likely to do it?-The merchants +might do it to some, and to some they would not. They could not +be expected to do it to a man who was indebted to them; but if a +man was clear with them, they might have no objections to +advance the money. + +8485. I suppose it would not be easy to find a boat's crew where +some of the men were not in debt?-I think there are a good few +boats' crews of that kind. + +8486. Could not a boat's crew, where none of the men were in +debt, get their money in that way?-Certainly they could if they +wished it. + +8487. And they could import their meal from the south if they +found it any cheaper?-Perhaps they could. + +8488. Do any of your people knit or weave?-They do. + +8489. Are they paid for their work in the way which Mrs. +Williamson and Mrs. Johnston have described?-Yes. + +8490. They are paid mostly in goods?-They can take either goods +or money, because they are not in debt to any man. + +8491. Do you keep an account with any merchant?-No; I keep +the family accounts. + +[Page 206] + +8492. Do you keep them all in one?-Yes. + +8493. Is that a common way at Muckle Roe?-I think it is, and I +think it is the best way. + +8494. Have you sometimes taken their webs to sell to the +merchants?-Yes, I have sometimes done so. + +8495. Have you ever got money for a web?-Yes, if I wanted it. + +8496. But did you ever get it?-I have. I have got £4 at a time, +when the web was worth it. + +8497. Was that long ago?-It was this very year. + +8498. Did you get it all in money?-Yes. + +8499. Was that at Voe?-No, it was at Brae from Mr. Inkster. + +8500. Did you ever get as much money before for any web?-No, +I don't think so. + +8501. Were you paid mostly in goods before?-No, not altogether +in goods. If I did not require the goods, I could have it in money, +because if I was not in debt to them they were obliged to pay me +the money. + +8502. Were they always obliged to pay money for webs?-Yes, to +men who were clear with them, and who would not take their wool +from them. + +8503. But a man who was not clear would not get all money?- +No, he could not expect it. + +8504. The price of his cloth would be put to his account?-Yes. + +8505. And he might get a little money if he wanted it?-Yes. I +never knew a merchant to refuse a man a little money if he was in +need of it. + +8506. But the man had to tell the merchant that he was in need of +it?-Yes, if he was in need, he had to explain that to him. + +8507. If a man was in debt to a merchant, and wanted to get money +for his web, could he not take it to another merchant?-Yes; but it +would not be very fair to do so. A man who is in debt to another +ought always to pay his debt when he can. + +8508. But he might pay it at another time and he might be wanting +the money for his own immediate needs?-Such cases as that +might occur, but not very often. + +8509. You think the people round about you don't often do that?- +I don't think they do. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, examined. + +8510. Are you a fisherman and farmer near Brae?-Yes, about a +mile or a mile and a half north from this. + +8511. Have you a good bit of land?-Yes, just about as big as most +of the people have hereabouts-a small allotment. + +8512. Have you got a brother in Ollaberry?-I have a brother-in- +law there, and a cousin, William Blanch. + +8513. Have you been present to-day?-Not all the time. I have +been here for about an hour. + +8514. Have you heard the description which has been given of +how the fishermen are settled with for their accounts?-Yes. I +was present at the first meeting which was held at Brae. + +8515. Do you settle in the same way as you have heard +described?-Yes, much in the same way; but I am a Faroe +fisherman, and I have been so for the last twelve years. + +8516. Are you a skipper?-Yes. + +8517. Who do you ship with?-I have been employed by Mr. +Adie's firm for the last five years. Before that I went out from +Lerwick. I went for Mr. Sutherland, and then for Mr. George Reid +Tait. + +8518. You settle every year in the winter?-Yes, or sometimes +twice in one year, but not often. + +8519. You get supplies, as a rule, from the merchant in whose +smack you go to the fishing?-Yes, we get that if we require them. + +8520. But, as a rule, do you get your supplies from that +merchant?-As a rule we do, but there are exceptions. For my +own part, I have never been under the necessity of taking out +supplies unless I chose; but, generally speaking, I have taken +them out, especially stores required for our own use in the vessel. + +8521. And when anything is required for the man's family at home +during the season, is it generally got from the same merchant?-It +may be. In most cases,, I think, that would be the case; but, for +my own part, was not bound to do that, because at the time of +settlement I had always something to take, and I could deal where +I chose. + +8522. You say you were not bound to do it: is it common for men +to feel that they are bound to do that?-Of course. If I was +employed by a curer or a merchant, and had been in the habit of +dealing with another before I was employed by him, I would +consider it something like a duty, in a moral point of view, to put +my money into his shop, and I have done so, although I have never +been obligated to do it. + +8523. Are some of the men obligated to do that?-I think they are +obligated, for this reason, that they could scarcely help themselves. +Perhaps they had not the money to purchase their goods elsewhere, +and they were bound for that reason from a selfish motive. + +8524. You think they could not get credit elsewhere?-Yes. Some +of them I know could not get it elsewhere. Perhaps some of them +could. + +8525. But the merchant who employs men at the Faroe fishing +is generally ready to give credit to a man who is in these +circumstances, and who does not have money?-Of course he +does. He understands he has that to do. They make advances, +perhaps before, but as soon as the men engage to go to the fishing. +It may be about this time, or it may be a month previous to this, +when they make the engagement to go. + +8526. And they made an advance then either in cash or in +out-takes?-I don't think they will likely give much cash. They +may give 8s. or 10s. in cash, but unless they know the man is to be +depended upon I don't think they will give much more. They may +give man until he has made some earning by his fishing; but unless +it is a case where they know it can be paid back again by the man +otherwise, they will not give it. He may pay it out of his stock for +instance, he may have some other means. For my own part, of +course, I was always so far able to pay my account, and I never had +need to ask for money. I can only speak to that from personal +experience; but I have known men who sailed with me for eight or +nine years, and I know they have got a little money, perhaps 10s. +or £1, at a time when they required it. + +8527. Although they were bound?-I did not know about their +being bound. I would not say much about that. I daresay some of +them would be bound, and some of them were not. + +8528. Have you ever known men being bound when, they engaged +to a merchant?-No. I may have heard about it, but I could not +show it by proof. + +8529. Have you heard of men who are obligated, as you said, to +engage with it particular merchant for the fishing because they +were in his debt?-No; I could not say definitely as to that. + +8530. Have you had an idea or it notion that a man might have +engaged for that reason?-Yes; I have had that idea, and I have +been told so by men themselves, but these men are not here, and I +could not say that it was actually the case. For my own part, I have +never been in these circumstances. + +8531. Have you ever considered whether you would be better +under any other arrangement than making settlement at the end +of the year for the Faroe fishing?-I have considered that matter, +and I have often thought that we might have been better than we +are under the present state of matters. That may have been partly +our own blame, in consequence of the want of information +among the fishermen; but I have often thought, and I think so +still, that we don't have that fair play which we ought to have. I +think the present system is almost, if not altogether, a one-sided +arrangement for the merchant. That is my opinion with regard to +the Faroe fishing, and the ling fishers say the [Page 207] same. +We don't know what we are to get until the end of the season. We +go and toil away and catch fish if we can, but we don't know what +we are to get for them until the time of settlement. There is an +arrangement made between the fish-curers or merchants, and by +that time they have made up their minds, and have fixed upon +certain price, while we under our agreement have just to take +what they please to give us. Our understanding is that the crew get +one-half of the nett, and the fish-merchant or curer gets the other +half for his vessel. Of course, the salt and the expenses of curing +deducted, and the master's and mate's extra, and the score money. + +8532. There are some deductions before you come to the nett?- +Yes; we don't get one half of the gross; we only get one-half of the +nett. There is allowance for salt and curing, which is generally £2, +10s., and I think it could be done cheaper, but that may be our own +blame. Then there is the master's extra and the mate's extra, +which is a fee of so much per ton to each, according as the +agreement is made. + +8533. What other deduction is there?-There is score-money, and +there may be the expense of bringing the fish to market. + +8534. Is that a deduction, or does it not come off the merchant's +half of the nett?-I don't know exactly how that is done. We +never see the account sales of the fish, although we ought to see +them, but that may be our own blame too. + +8535. You don't know whether the merchant gets commission of +5 per cent?-I have been told so by one merchant that I was +employed by, Mr. Grierson. I never was told that by any other +merchant for whom I was employed, but Mr. Grierson told me that +was actually so in his case. + +8536. You are a skipper, and you actually don't know how the +deductions are made which come off before the nett produce is +halved?-Of course I have asked about these things, and I have +been told that there were no other deductions taken off beyond +what have mentioned. + +8537. Do you have nothing to do with the making of these +deductions yourself?-No. + +8538. You have nothing to do with the weighing of the fish, nor +with the selling of them?-No; nor with making a market for +them. + +8539. But you think you might be more fairly dealt with than +you are?-I think we might. I don't know whether that is +altogether the merchant's blame, but think we could have a fairer +understanding, for two reasons: In the first place, we ought to have +an understanding when we start or engage that we are to have a +certain fixed price for our fish, the same as the Englishmen have. +They know what they are to get before their fish are caught. + +8540. Where do these Englishmen fish?-They are in smacks that +come from London and Grimsby and Hull and Berwick, and they +fish for curers in Shetland, and land their fish here. + +8541. Have these men all an agreement for a fixed price?-So +far as I understand, they have. At least I have been told so by +themselves. + +8542. These men have a fixed agreement with the curers here to +whom they sell?-Yes. Of course, their men are not paid in the +same way as we are. The men on board these vessels, except the +masters, are paid by weekly wages. + +8543. And the master makes a bargain with the merchant here +about the fish?-I rather think it is the owner who makes the +bargain. + +8544. Do you know the nature of the bargain they make?-I +cannot say that I know definitely. I know the merchant here agrees +to pay them a fixed price when the fish are landed in a dry state. +They are salted on board the vessels, and they get £10, £11, or +£12 a ton for salted fish when landed. They know they are to get +that before the fish are caught, and they cannot expect anything +more. Now; I say we ought to have something like that, and then +we would know what we were actually working for. It might be +that in that way we would get less than we do present, but we +would have a fair understanding. If we lost in one year, we might +gain in another. + +8545. Do you think the men in Shetland, generally speaking, +would be inclined to consent to a bargain of that sort? Would they +not grumble very much if the price rose considerably before the +end of the season?-It would only be parties who were dull of +apprehension that would be likely to grumble. It would not be the +intelligent men. For my part, and so far as my experience goes, I +don't think a man of intelligence and experience would have a +right to grumble in that case and I don't think he would do so. +There are a great many I have spoken to, and reasoned the matter +with, who, I don't think, would grumble. + +8546. Do you think the fishermen, under such a system, would +have the same advantage at the beginning of the season in making +a bargain as the masters would have? Would the masters not be +likely to know better what the market price was likely to be +towards the end of the season, and thus be able to make a +calculation as to the price more in their own favour?-The +merchants ought, from their position, to have more information +as to the probable state of the market, and, a rule, they do have +more information; but I believe there are not a few masters of +Faroe fishing vessels who could make as good a market, or nearly +as good a market, as the curers could. + +8547. You think they have all the information necessary to guide +them in making a good bargain in the beginning of the season, or +just as much as the curers have?-Yes. A curer would just be as +likely to make a mistake in his arrangements as I would be. The +market is so fluctuating that it is possible a curer may go and make +a loss. He might possibly make an arrangement with another +merchant to sell his fish at a certain fixed price, and there is a +possibility of the fish rising after that, and of course I would stand +the same chance. + +8548. Do you say that in the English vessels the fish is salted +before it is put on shore?-Yes. + +8549. Is that the case in your smacks also?-Yes; we are always +bound to do that. We could not keep the fish otherwise. When +fishing on the coast of Faroe or Iceland, or elsewhere, we cannot +help ourselves; we must salt them in order to save them. + +8550. Is the salt put on board the vessel, and supplied by the +fish-curer at starting?-Yes. + +8551. You said you thought 50s. a ton was rather too high a charge +for salting and curing: is that your opinion?-I am inclined to +think so. I know the price of salt as well as the curers do. I have +been in the habit of buying salt at Liverpool more than two or three +times, and I know what I have paid for it, buying it with ready +money. The last cargo of salt which I brought here cost 7s. per +ton, when ready to leave Liverpool, and the freight here would be +10s. Then there would be 1s. per ton for landing, at least. Then +there would be 2s. for wastage and they might take off 1s. or 2s. +more for cellar rent. That would be 22s. + +8552. Would that be the total cost of the salt delivered in +Shetland?-It might vary; but that is what I paid for it the last +time I bought a cargo. + +8553. Do you think 22s. is a liberal calculation for it?-I think so. +Then the people have to be paid for curing, that is, washing and +drying the fish, and I think they generally pay at least 12s. per ton, +or in some cases more, for that. I have never cured fish myself, +but I have been told by curers that that is about the expense. + +8554. That would be 12s. for the workpeople employed at the +curing; but you would also require some allowance for implements +and sheds and booths?-No doubt an allowance would require to +be made for that too. In some cases a man may be curing fish +where he has to provide a booth for himself, and he has to get +covering from the fish-curer or merchant. That, however, would +only be a trifle., + +8555. Would 3s. a ton be too much for that?-As rule, I think it +would not. + +8556. Would it be too little?-I think it would not be too little; I +think it would fully meet it. + +[Page 208] + +8557. Would there be any other expense for the curing of the +fish?-Not so far as the curing is concerned. + +8558. You say the charge for curing is 50s.?-Yes. I have paid my +share of it at that rate, and I have sometimes paid for it at the rate +of 52s. 6d., but it has been less than 50s. in my experience. At one +time it was 45s., but of late years it has never been less than 50s. + +8559. The calculation which you have made comes so that you +think the fish-curer makes a profit of 13s. per ton upon the curing: +is that your opinion?-My opinion is just exactly as I have stated +it. It is possible I may be wrong in some of the items, because in +some cases the merchant may have to give the curer more. It may +be a late season, or a wet season, and in order to get the fish dried +and ready for market it is possible they might encourage the curer, +by giving him 1s. or 2s. more. + +8560. The expense might be more than 37s. a ton in some +cases?-It might be. + +8561. But you think that 37s. a ton is a fair enough calculation, +so far as you can make it, for the usual expenses of salting and +curing?-I think so. + +8562. Do you think fishermen could cure for themselves upon a +small scale?-It might not be easy to get a crew together which +could do that, but I think it could be done. I do not see why the +master of a Faroe fishing vessel could not get a man to cure his +fish as well as another man. There are often beaches that he could +get the use of for the time being, and I think it is quite possible +they could get their fish cured, but there may be some difficulty +about it. It might be that every person would not be able to do it. + +8563. You do not know whether that has been tried?-I do not. +For my own part, I never attempted it. + +8564. Do you think the system of running accounts among the +Faroe fishermen you have met with has led them to incur too large +amounts of debt?-I am inclined to think so. + +8565. Is that one of your reasons for wishing to have a price fixed +at the beginning of the year?-That would be one of the special +reasons, but it is not the whole reason. I have another reason for +that, which is, that as the system exists now, if the merchant makes +a good bargain or a good market for his fish, and the man he sells +them to does not fail before the price is payable, the merchant +never loses, because he never pays the price to us before then +which he can afford to pay. He is always secure; but if he had a +fixed price to pay for the fish; he might lose as quick as I would. +That is my main reason for objecting to this system. I would like +to have the thing altered so that there might be something like fair +play, and that if I lose, I lose, and that if I gain, I gain. I am not +saying that the merchant is not paying me a fair price now. He +may be paying me all he can afford to pay, but I don't know that. + +8566. But by the system you propose, the price might be lower +than is sufficient for your labour?-I would have to take my +chance of that. In my experience I have had to contend with three +all but total failures at the fishing, and of course our labour and +time went for almost nothing. But that was not the owner's blame; +we could not help it, and no more could he. + +8567. Is there any other plan for the payment of fish that has +occurred to you? How would it do, for instance, if a certain part +of the price per cwt. were arranged to be paid on delivery of the +green fish, and that the rest, whatever it might be, should be paid +at settlement according to the current price?-I could scarcely +speak with regard to green fish, because my experience has been in +salted fish, and I would only like to speak about that with which I +have been myself more immediately connected. But speaking with +regard to salted fish only, what you have suggested would be a far +better way, because I would then have a chance of seeing my fish +weighed out. I don't think the merchant has cheated me out of a +ton or half a ton of fish, but I have not had the chance of seeing my +fish weighed when I was there. Each vessel's catch is kept and +cured separately; but when we come to deliver the fish, if we had +a chance of seeing it weighed then, and got a certain figure for it, +that would be exactly the way in which these Englishmen deal. +They see their fish weighed, and they know what they are getting +for each ton or each cwt. of it, and they have nothing more to +expect. But we don't do that; we get the dried fish price. + +8568. Do you know how much green fish makes a cwt. of dry?-I +know that about 21/4 cwt. is the general rate allowed in the ling +fishing for green fish, but if it is good fish it will not require so +much as that I have helped to cure myself, but it may be as much +as that with bad fish. As to salted fish, I could not say definitely +what is the proportion. + +8569. There is no such calculation required in the Faroe fishing?- +No; it does not come so immediately under my notice. I never saw +my fish weighed dry; I have seen them occasionally weighed wet, +but not often. + +8570. Are they occasionally weighed wet in the Faroe fishing?- +Sometimes, not often. It is done perhaps on shore or on board, as +it happens. Suppose we land them at a different station from what +we intended, they are counted out and weighed when sold, and +then the owner or fish-curer will know what they can turn out +when dry. That is the reason why they are weighed. + +8571. Then there must be a calculation made in that case?-There +is, but I do not know exactly what it is. + +8572. To go back to your calculation about the expense of curing +fish, can you tell me how much salt is required to cure a ton of +fish?-We generally reckon upon a ton of salt to a ton of dry fish. +If the salt is well cared for it will do a little more but we generally +reckon upon that as an average. + +8573. Is the salt which the fish get all put on them before they +are put on shore?-Yes; it is all put on. There is none put on +afterwards, except it may be in the case of a few fish which are +likely to give way, or when we get fish and have not enough salt, +but that is a case of emergency and an exception-not the rule. As +a rule, we cure our fish and put all the salt on them they require. + +8574. Have you any knowledge of the system of payment in the +ling fishing?-Only from what I have heard about it. I have been +at it only once when I was a lad; and I cannot say much about it +from experience. + +8575. Do you think your neighbours are generally quite at liberty +to deal with any merchant they please in the ling fishing?-I +believe they are at perfect liberty so far as any man is concerned +who could stand in a position like me, and be able to pay his way +at any time; but I think a man who could not pay his way, and who +was always in debt, would not be at liberty to go where he chose. I +am not sure that even he would not be at liberty to use his own +judgment, and deal where he liked; but I don't know that he would +be looked well upon if he went to another. That is to say, if he +was in debt £10 or £20 to a merchant, I don't think the merchant +would look well upon it if the man went to another merchant to +whom he owed nothing, and fished for him. At least that is what +they have told me, and what I have known; but, of course, a man +who can pay his way, and who is not bound to fish for a certain +individual, can do as he likes. There are fishermen in other parts +of the country who are bound to fish for their landowner or their +factor, but that does not exist here. + +8576. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I don't think +there is anything about any matter with which I am immediately +connected. We used to make a little Shetland cloth, but I could +only corroborate the evidence that has been already given about +that. I have never been under the necessity of selling it to a +particular party, and I have got the money for it when I asked it. I +don't know that the same price is always given in money as when +it is taken in goods; but if I needed money, and asked for it, I +always got it. + +[Page 209] + +8577. Then you have no objection to the practice which exists with +regard to the hosiery trade?-No; I would not say anything about +that. + +8578. Have you any objection to what is done in the cloth trade?- +It is the cloth trade I mean. Of course the knitting is a thing that I +am not immediately connected with; there is not much done in that +way with me. I know, however, that in some cases, although +perhaps not in all, where women have been knitting hosiery, and +they have got a certain price for an article, yet by buying tea or +groceries, which are reckoned as money articles, they would have +to pay more for them. They would have to pay 2d. or 11/2d. more +upon a 1/4 lb. of tea, because it was being paid for by hosiery; but I +think I would have preferred a different way of dealing with them. +I think, if I had been in a position like that, I would have given +them less for their hosiery, and sold the articles to them at a fixed +price. It would just have come to the very same thing with the +merchants. + +8579. You think that would have been a wiser course for the +merchants to take?-Yes. I remember on one occasion when I +brought two or three articles of hosiery to a merchant, I got a +certain sum put upon them; but when I got a little tea from him, he +said he had to make the tea 2d. more per quarter, because it was +paid for in hosiery. I said to him I would not deal in that way if I +were him, but that I would give a little less for the hosiery, and I +would charge a fixed price for my tea, or whatever other articles I +was selling; but he said, 'We must all do that, because if I were to +say that I would not give a woman so much for her hosiery, she +would go to another merchant with it, and they would give her a +higher price, and lay it on their goods;' which I have no doubt they +do. + +8580. Therefore you did not convince the hosiery merchant?-I +convinced him so far, that I got my price. I would not pay the +price he charged, and would have taken my article of hosiery back +rather than pay it. + +8581. Did that take place some years ago?-Yes; it is not less than +six years ago. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS ROBERTSON, examined. + +8582. Have you been a fisherman here all your life?-Not all my +life; but I have been for a number of years. + +8583. You hold a bit of ground at Weathersta?-Yes. + +8584. Who do you fish for?-For Mr Adie, Voe. + +8585. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes. + +8586. Do you generally get some of your balance in cash?-Yes. +If I have a balance to get I get it, but I always got money when I +asked it, whether I had it to get or not. + +8587. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the +year?-Yes; whenever I ask it. + +8588. Did you get that ten years ago if you asked for it?-I did. + +8589. Was that the practice then?-Yes; but I never asked for +money unless I required it. + +8590. You wanted goods oftener?-Yes. + +8591. How far is it from Voe to your place?-About three miles. + +8592. Is Mr. Adie's the nearest shop to you?-No. Brae is nearer +than Voe. + +8593. But you dealt at Voe, because you were fishing for Mr. +Adie?-I dealt some at Brae too; but mostly at Voe. + +8594. Was that because you had an account there?-Yes. + +8595. And it was more convenient for you sometimes to deal upon +credit?-Yes. + +8596. I suppose you would get a larger advance in goods at that +shop than you would have got if you were to ask money?-I don't +know; I only asked for goods when I was needing them. + +8597. But if you had asked money with which to go and buy your +goods elsewhere, would you have got it?-I cannot say, for I never +asked it. + +8598. Have you heard the evidence of Robertson and Wood, and +the other fishermen who have been examined to-day?-Yes. + +8599. Have you anything different to say from what they said +about the system of dealing among the fishermen here?-No. + +8600. Have you known fishermen changing from one employment +to another?-I have. + +8601. Have you done that yourself?-No. + +8602. You have always fished for Mr. Adie?-Yes. + +8603. What is the general reason for the men shifting?-I don't +know. I suppose it is because they think they will be better. + +8604. How are they better, when the same price is always paid at +the end of the year by all the curers?-I cannot see where they can +be better by shifting from one man to another; I never felt that I +would be any better to do so. + +8605. I understand all the merchants hereabout pay the same +current price for fish?-Yes. Mr. Adie proposed a stated +agreement to me for fishing herring. The herrings in Shetland +then were 7s. a cran, and he agreed that he would give us 8s. a +cran; but we have only got 8s. a cran for two years. The price +varies with the agreement in each year; sometimes we get 13s. a +cran, sometimes 10s., and sometimes 12s.-just up and down. + +8606. Do you generally go to the herring fishing every year?-Yes. + +8607. At what season of the year do you go?-August and +September; after we are done with the ling fishing. + +8608. And the bargain for the herring fishing is that you are to get +so much a cran?-Yes; that was the agreement we had with Mr. +Adie when we took our nets. + +8609. Do you hire nets from him for that fishing?-No, we buy +them, and they are put into our accounts. + +8610. Have you paid off the price of these nets now?-Yes. + +8611. How long did it take you to pay them?-I could not say +exactly, but I think it took us between 8 and 9 years to pay for +them all, because we had lean fishings. + +8612. You mean that the herring fishing was poor?-Yes. + +8613. Did you get them paid off at last?-Yes. + +8614. Is the price for the herrings paid down whenever you deliver +them?-No. + +8615. Do you keep an account for the herring fishing separate +from the account for the ling fishing?-Yes. + +8616. Do you get goods to the other side of that account too?-No; +they are all in the same account. + +8617. Your goods are kept in an account at Voe?-Yes. + +8618. And the price of the herrings is entered to your credit when +you settle?-Yes. + +8619. Do you keep a pass-book?-Yes. + +8620. Have you got it now?-No; I don't have it, because we think +there is no use keeping it after the end of the season. Once we find +the pass-book to be correct, we think it is of no farther use, and +when I brought it home I suppose the bairns tore it up. + +8621. When you square up your account at the end of the year, do +you go and look at all the items in Mr. Adie's book?-Yes. + +8622. Are they read over to you?-Yes; I compare them with the +items in my book, and I see that they are all correct. + +8623. Is it mostly goods or cash that you get in the course of the +year?-It is goods for the most part but I get a good part of cash +too. + +[Page 210] + +Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN RATTER, examined. + +8624. You are a fisherman at Weathersta?-Yes. + +8625. Do you fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes. + +8626. Have you heard what Thomas Robertson has said?-Yes. + +8627. Does it all apply to your case as well as his?-Exactly. + +8628. How long have you fished for Mr. Adie?-Six years. + +8629. Where did you fish before?-I did not fish for any one +before, except going for a fee to the ling fishing. + +8630. Do you go to the herring fishing also?-Yes. + +8631. And you are paid for it in the same way as Robertson?- +Yes. + +8632. You get a fixed price for the herring?-Yes. + +8633. Have you anything to add to what he has said?-No. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled. + +8634. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I forgot that I +had my pass-book with Mr. Adie for this year with me. It shows +the goods I am getting now. [Produces book.] + +8635. I thought you were getting your goods at cash price now?- +Yes; I had a promise of them at cash price. + +8636. I see there is tea, 5d.?-That is for 2 oz. of tea. + +8637. Then you are not getting them for cash price yet?-I have no +doubt that when I settle with Mr. Adie he will square that up. I +have his promise for it, and I have no doubt that he will do it. I +wish further to say, that this truck system or compulsory barter is +a great cause of pauperism, as it makes the poor careless and the +rich fearless; because, should the head of the family die, the +creditor will probably take the effects left, and consequently leave +the widow and fatherless children, if any, on the parish. Another +thing is, that when the merchants have it in their power to price +both their goods and mine, they clearly see that I must sell, and off +it must go at whatever they say is the value, and I must take their +goods at the value they are pleased to put upon them, and I-if I +am in debt-dare not grumble. + +8638. What goods have you had to sell upon which they have put +their own price?-For one thing, I have been a carrier of hosiery to +different places. + +8639. Who have you carried hosiery for?-Perhaps for my wife or +others, and the value of the stockings was made to be 10d., or 8d., +or 7d. If I took tea, and the value of the stockings was 10d., I +could only get 9d. worth. If I took cotton goods I would get the +full value, but not if I took tea. Then, if under this system a man +gets into debt, it is more in appearance than in reality; and should +that man ask money from the apparent creditor, the old account +will be shaken at him as a scarecrow, and he is generally told to +pay his credit and transfer his custom, and that consequently nails +him to the old plan. As to the difference in the price of meal, what +deceived me in that line was, that I and others were often told that +they only charged 2s. per sack as a commission, which would have +been £10 per 100 sacks; but at last, when I wrote to some of the +meal dealers in the south, I found it was more like £50 per 100 +sacks-that is 10s. per sack instead of 2s. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE, examined. + +8640. You are a son of Mr. T.M. Adie, who has been already +examined?-I am. I am a partner of the business carried on at +Voe, although it is carried on in my father's name. I have been +a partner for seven or eight years. + +8641. Are you aware of any arrangement existing between Messrs. +Adie, Anderson, and Inkster, to this effect, that when a fisherman +who is in debt to one of these curers goes to another, the new +employer undertakes the debt incurred to the former employer?- +There was an arrangement of that sort entered into. + +8642. Has it been acted upon to a certain extent?-Yes; I think it +has been pretty well carried out. + +8643. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes; I think the original +document is in our possession. I will send it to you.* A principal +object or inducement for having that document drawn up was, that +a great many of our fishermen were in the habit of settling at the +end of the season, and getting advances for rent, or of goods, on +the understanding that they were to fish, or go in a boat of ours to +the fishing, in the following season; and then they left and went to +Mr. Anderson, and took similar advances from him. + +8644. Did you find that a man who got into arrears in your books, +and to whom you were obliged to refuse supplies on account of his +debt being too large, was apt to go to another merchant and engage +with him for the following season?-In some cases perhaps they +did so, but not as a rule. + +8645. But did you not find that when a man's debt got so large that +you had to refuse him supplies, and he was not likely to pay it, he +went away to another merchant instead of continuing to fish for +you?-Sometimes; but most of the men, when they are in debt in +that way, save as much as possible, and keep under expenses, in +order to assist in getting the debt cleared off. + +8646. You see when a man is trying to keep down expenses, and +you help him as far as possible?-Yes. + +8647. Do you remember of one William Inkster leaving you in that +way a good many years ago?-Yes. + +8648. And Mr. Anderson paid the whole of his debt to you under +that agreement?-Yes; Mr. Anderson paid his debt. + +8649. Have other cases occurred of a similar kind?-Yes; I think +we have paid Mr. Anderson some accounts for some of his men, +and he has paid us. + +8650. Is it the full debt that is paid in these cases, or only a +proportion of it, or do you make a compromise?-Sometimes +we make a compromise. + +8651. Was there any understanding when you took the lease of +your premises at Voe, that no shop should be permitted on the +Busta estate near you?-I cannot speak positively on that matter. +I don't know the terms of the lease exactly. I think there was a +stipulation in the last lease, with regard to the pasture ground, that +no business should be carried on upon it. + +8652. Do you mean no fish-curing business?-No shop. There +was a talk at one time of having a [Page 211] public-house put up +there; and I think it was with reference to that that the stipulation +was put in. That was in the lease of the park or enclosed property. + +8653. Has your firm a grocer's licence?-Yes. + +8654. I understand there is no public-house in the +neighbourhood?-No; we have a spirit licence. + +8655. Have you a public-house licence as well?-Yes. + +8656. That business is carried on, of course, in different premises +from your other business?-No; they are carried on in the same +premises. + +8657. Is there not a different door to the place where you sell the +spirits?-No; we are quite at liberty to sell spirits there, but not to +consume them on the premises. + +8658. Then you have no licence at all to consume on the +premises?-No. + +8659. And the licence you have is not a public house licence?- +No. + +8660. You have been present to-day and heard the evidence: is +there any observation you wish to make upon it?-I don't know +that there is. I think most of the things which have been referred +to were explained by my father. There is something, however, +with reference to the curing of the fish which I may refer to. That +matter has scarcely been gone into as it should have been. For +instance, it has been stated that a ton of salt will cure a ton of fish +in one of the Faroe vessels, but it never does so. At one time, I +believe, it would have cured a ton of fish, but there is a fearful +extravagance and waste of salt going on in these vessels now. +There are tons of salt which are wasted among ballast, and in other +ways, so that we never turn out a ton of dry fish for a ton of salt. + +8661. You heard the calculation made by Blanch on that +subject?-Yes. Salt costs us a great deal more than he mentioned; +we don't have salt in our cellars under 27s. or 27s. 6d., and there is +the cost of shipping again into the vessels and wastage. + +8662. He allowed 2s. a ton for waste?-Yes, in landing, but not in +shipping; 2s. a ton will not cover the waste both in landing and +shipping; and then the cost of labour is very much higher than it +used to be. + +8663. Is 12s. a ton an insufficient allowance for labour?-It is. + +8664. Have you made a calculation of that at any time for the +purposes of your business?-We can scarcely get an accurate +calculation made, but I am certain it is more than he stated. +There are different parcels of fish landed from different vessels +to be cured, and we cannot keep an accurate account of the time +expended on each parcel. + +8665. But take a single ton of fish: is 12s. more than the ordinary +cost of curing it?-No; it is considerably less than the cost. I am +perfectly certain of that. + +8666. Is 50s. per ton, the ordinary deduction charged off fishermen +for the Faroe fishing, very much above the actual cost?-I don't +think it is 6d. over the actual cost. + +8667. Does that include anything for superintendence?-Of +course, it includes the allowance for our utensils, and the cost of +beaches and superintendence. Then Blanch said there was a +deduction of 5 per cent, but it is not 5 per cent. that is deducted. +There is generally £1 per ton deducted for expenses in realizing +the fish and storage, and so on. + +8668. Is that £1 per ton on the cured fish?-Yes; that is known all +over the country to be the ordinary rate of charge. + +8669. That comes to nearly 5 per cent.?-Yes; sometimes it is a +little more than 5 per cent, and sometimes it is not so much. + +8670. Are these all the deductions that are made before the +division of the proceeds of the cured fish?-Yes; there is the +curing, and the master and the mate's extra, and the score-money. + +8671. What is score-money?-The men are paid so much for each +score of fish they individually draw. + +8672. That is to say, each man counts the fish which he gets with +his own lines?-Yes, and he gets 6d. a score for them. + +8673. That is a sort of premium upon industry?-Yes; that is +deducted from the gross, and paid to the individual fisherman. + +8674. Is there any other deduction in favour of either the merchant +or the men?-I am not aware of any. There are some payments for +bait which are deducted too. That is charged against the vessel's +fishing, and deducted from the gross. + +8675. Is there any expense for lines, or do the men furnish their +own lines?-The men furnish their lines in the Faroe fishing. + +8676. Is the price of these lines charged against the fishing, or +against the men individually?-Against the men individually. +Each man gets his own lines, and they are charged in his +individual account. There is a stock of lines generally kept by +the master on board the vessel, and they are supplied by him to +the men on board. + +8677. These stores on board the vessel go to the individual account +of the men?-Yes, stores of all kinds. We supply them with 8 lbs. +of bread per man per week, and they find their own small stores. + +8678. These they generally purchase in your shop?-Yes. + +8679. And they are put to their account?-Yes. + +* The agreement referred to was afterwards sent in, and was in the +following terms:-'We, Gideon Anderson, of Ollaberry; John +Anderson, Hillswick; James Inkster, Brae; and Thomas M. Adie, +Voe; considering the very disastrous consequences likely to ensue +to ourselves, and ultimately to our fishermen, from the reckless +system of giving them advances which has been for some time +practised, and knowing that such system is farther followed from +the fact that if any of us refused their demands, however absurd, +they turned to another, who gave them what they wanted; we have +resolved to do away with such in future, so that each of us may be +able to exercise his own judgment as to the propriety of what +advances he may make to his fishermen;' and the parties agreed +and bound themselves, so long as they continued as fishcurers in +the same localities, 'not to tamper with or engage each other's +fishermen, or allow our boat-skippers or men to do so, or to make +advances of rents to them on their cattle, sheep, or ponies, or under +any circumstances whatever, unless they produce a certificate from +any of us whom they last fished for, to the effect that he is clear of +debt and all other obligations existing therefrom, or in connection +with the fishing,' under a penalty of £5, to be paid to the poor of +the parish. + +In a letter with reference to this agreement Mr. T. M. Adie says:- +'The only way in which it has ever had to be acted on is, that +occasionally some man would like to be in a boat more convenient +for him, when any of us whom he had fished for gave him a note +stating that he was under no obligation, or if he was due a balance, +the curer he went to paid it for him. On some occasions we had +found that a worthless fellow would get what he actually needed +advanced to him, and then, if any fancied want was not supplied, +he would leave the boat, and the rest of the crew lost their fishing +for want of a man in his stead, and it tended to keep down +advances in goods so that men had, more money to get.' + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined. + +8680. Where do you live?-In North Delting. + +8681. Are you a fisherman?-I am. + +8682. Who do you fish for?-Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. + +8683. How far do you live from Mossbank?-About a mile. + +8684. How long have you fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Five +years. + +8685. Do you keep an account at the Mossbank shop?-Yes. + +8686. Do you make a settlement at the end of the year?-Yes. + +8687. Do you get any money at settlement?-Yes, I get my rent. + +8688. Who do you pay your rent to?-Mr. John Robertson. I live +on the Lunna estate; Sheriff Bell is the proprietor. + +8689. Do you get any more money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., +besides your rent?-No more money, as I don't have it to get. + +8690. Is that because you are in debt?-Yes. + +8691. How far are you behind?-I was behind £3 at the last +settlement, but I have been as much behind as £13. + +8692. Are you always behind in your accounts?-Yes. + +8693. And you always go to fish for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., in the +hope of paying them off?-Yes. + +8694. Are you at liberty to fish for any other merchant?-No. + +8695. Why?-Because I am in debt, and I cannot pay my debt, +therefore I am obliged to fish for Mr. Pole. + +8696. If you were to go to fish for another merchant and get paid +by him in money, could you not pay off your debt to Pole, +Hoseason, & Co.?-I might, but I don't see what good that would +do. I get the same price for my fish from Mr. Pole as I would get +from any other body. + +8697. But don't you think you run up a bigger account when you +are dealing with Pole, Hoseason, & Co., than you would do if you +were getting your cash in hand?-Yes; if I had cash to purchase +my meal, which is the principal thing I require, I would get it +cheaper elsewhere. + +8698. What is the price of meal at Mossbank just now?-I cannot +say rightly. + +[Page 212] + +8699. When did you know last? Have you made your settlement +this year?-Yes. + +8700. Don't you know what you were charged for meal then?- +No. + +8701. Do you ask the price of your meal as you buy it?- +Sometimes; but we must take it, whatever it is, because we +have no money to purchase it with elsewhere. + +8702. Whose fault is that?-I don't know. + +8703. Is it the merchant's fault?-I cannot say that is. + +8704. Do you think Messrs. Pole Hoseason, & Co. charge too +high for their goods?-Yes; if we had money we could get them +cheaper in Lerwick. + +8705. But I suppose you would have money if you could save as +much as would keep you for one year?-Yes. + +8706. If you could manage that, you would not run into the +merchant's debt at all, but you would have all your cash to get at +settlement?-Yes, if we had as much as would once clear us off. + +8707. Can you not manage to do that?-No. I have a small family, +and there is a great quantity of bread to buy, and clothes and +everything. I have nothing but what I can earn by the fishing. + +8708. What kind of bread do you buy?-Oatmeal and flour. + +8709. Are there many men who are in debt at Mossbank in the +same way as you?-I believe there are a few, but I cannot say. + +8710. Do you want to go to fish for any other merchant?-No; I +don't see any good that that would do to me. + +8711. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing. + +8712. Was there anything else you wanted to say when you came +here?-No. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, recalled. + +8713. Do you wish to add anything to your former evidence?- +About the cost of fish-curing, I said I was not speaking exactly +from my own experience with regard to the sum paid, but I know +that we have never used more than a ton of salt to a ton of fish on +the average. I wish also to say that I have been told more than +once by parties who have cured fish for Mr. Adie and others, that +they only paid 12s. per ton of fish for the labour of curing. I also +say that I have paid 1s. for landing salt at Lerwick, and nothing +more, and I allow 2s. for wastage. These are things which Mr. +William Adie thought I had no doubt exaggerated, but I am +conscious of the fact that I told nothing but the truth. + +8714. Was 12s. per ton a price which was paid under contract?- +Yes. + +8715. Who are the parties who told you about that?-Arthur +Harrison was the last one I spoke to. I landed fish to be cured by +him, and he told me so. There was another man who told me the +same thing about five years ago, John Henry, Sandsting, in Walls. +With regard to the price paid for lines, I wish also to say that we +have to furnish our own lines in the Faroe fishing. You were +asking me if I thought there was a possibility of our bettering +ourselves. I thought there was, and that was one of the ways in +which I thought we might do so. I have always thought that the +owner, when he provided a vessel, ought also to provide the +material for the catching of the fish; but instead of that we have to +provide our own lines, and supply other lines if we happen to lose +them, at a very dear price. We 21/2 lines for each man, and we pay +2s. 6d. for what I know the merchants buy at 2s. or 1s. 6d. + +8716. Could you not buy your lines at another shop if you +chose?-Yes; we could do that. + +8717. Is it part of the arrangement that you are to take these lines +from the owner of the vessel?-I don't know that it is part of the +arrangement, but I don't think they would like it very well if we +went to another; still I don't know that we would be prevented. + +8718. Do not the men sometimes hire the lines?-No; never in my +experience in the Faroe fishing. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN NICHOLSON, examined. + +8719. Where do you come from?-North Delting. + +8720. Who do you fish for?-Messrs Pole, Hoseason, & Co. + +8721. Have you heard the evidence of Charles Nicholson?-Yes; +and I would like to say about the price of our fish, that I don't +think it is very right that the men should have to go to the fishing +at the beginning of the season, and don't know what they are to get +until they come to settle. + +8722. Do you think you ought to have your price fixed at the +beginning of the season?-Yes. + +8723. Have you ever asked for that?-No; we have never asked for +it. + +8724. Why?-Because some of the crew are for it and others are +against it, and we could not get the thing rightly settled up amongst +ourselves. + +8725. How long have you fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co?-I +have fished there for about fourteen years, both before and after +Mr. Pole came to Mossbank. + +8726. Where do you buy your goods?-From Mr. Pole. + +8727. Anywhere else?-No. + +8728. Do you never go to any other shop in the neighbourhood?- +Not very often. + +8729. Why is that?-Because sometimes I don't have ready money +to go with. + +8730. If you had ready money would you go anywhere else?-Yes. + +8731. Why?-Because I could get my goods cheaper and better. + +8732. Are you not satisfied with the quality of the goods at the +Mossbank shop?-No. There are some of the articles there which +are inferior to other people's, and dearer too. + +8733. What articles are inferior?-Tea and sugar and meal. + +8734. Where could you get them better?-In Lerwick. + +8735. That is a long way to go for them?-Yes; but a man must +take some trouble upon himself when he gets them cheaper and +better. + +8736. What are you paying at Mossbank store for these things just +now?-Tea is 3s. per lb., sugar is 5d., and meal is 50s. + +8737. When did you buy any of these three articles in Lerwick?- +About a month ago. + +8738. What did you get them for?-I got tea for 2s. 4d., sugar for +4d., and meal for 32s. + +8739. What is the price of meal now?- About 48s. but it was 50s. +in summer, and I bought a sack, or two bolls, at 32s. in Lerwick. + +8740. What quantity of meal did you buy at Mossbank last, for +which you paid 48s.?-I got it out in lesser quantities. They don't +like to give very much at one time, and I had to take it in less +quantities than I could get it in Lerwick. + +8741. Were you in debt to the shop at the time?-A little; not very +much. + +8742. And they would not give it to you because you were in +debt?-No. + +8743. Was it by the lispund you bought it at Mossbank?-Yes; I +paid 5s. 8d. per lispund for it, but about the end of July it was 6s. +We generally take it by the quarter boll there. + +8744. There are 32 lbs. to the lispund, and 280 lbs. in the sack?- +Yes. + +8745. Was the quality of the articles you bought in Lerwick, at the +price you have mentioned, as good as what you got at Mossbank at +the prices which [Page 213] say are charged there?-If there was +any difference, they were better. + +8746. But you had to carry them to Mossbank?-I had. The meal +came by the steamer, and I had to pay 8d. for that. + +8747. Can you not get cash from Pole, Hoseason, Co. when you +require it, and go and buy your supplies in Lerwick?-Yes; what I +require for the fishing, but not otherwise. + +8748. You cannot get what you require for your family?-No. + +8749. How did you happen to have money when you went and +bought the meal in Lerwick?-I had it from my small boat fishing +in the winter, and I saved the money. + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE (recalled), examined. + +8750. Is there anything further in what Blanch has said to which +you wish to refer?-Yes; he said that 12s. was the contract price +for curing our fish: that is false. We paid 13s. for curing fish at +Urrafirth, by Arthur Harrison. + +8751. Was that your contract price for the fish cured by him this +year?-He has cured none for us this year. He only cured a few +fish for us in the fall, and he got more than that for them. + +8752. Then that was the contract price in 1870?-Yes, for curing +alone. Then we had to pay 3s. a ton for landing and shipping these +fish from Voe to Urrafirth, and 3s. to Voe again; so that the curing +of the fish would cost us about £1. + +8753. Why do you pay so heavy freights? Can you not have the +fish landed at Urrafirth in the first place?-No. We send them +there as a convenience for ourselves, but the men are bound to +land them at Voe, and we have to remove them at our own +expense. We have no storage at Urrafirth for them, and they have +to be removed to our own stores again. + +8754. Why do you carry your fish to Urrafirth to be cured?- +Because we have not sufficient accommodation for them all at +Voe when we have a large take of fish. + +8755. Then you have to send your surplus fish all that way to be +cured?-Yes. + +8756. Does it not arise in that way that you have a loss upon these +fish?-Yes, we have a loss upon the fish when we cure them by +contract. + +8757. These fish will cost you more than 50s. for curing?-Yes, +they cost us considerably more. + +8758. But that will be recouped by your other profit?-Yes; but of +course we must pay that extra out of our own pockets. + +8759. But it does not follow that you have a loss upon the total +proceeds of the fish?-No, we would not need to have that. + +8760. The profit you calculate upon obtaining from the sale of +your fish is sufficient to cover an occasional loss of that sort, and +is calculated accordingly?- Yes. Of course, the extra charge on +the curing at Urrafirth won't come to nearly the £1 per ton which +we have for storage and commission on the fish. + +8761. Is there any one else who wishes to be examined?- [No +answer.] Then I adjourn the inquiry here until further notice. + +[<Adjourned.>] + + +Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES GARRIOCH, examined. + +8762. You are shopkeeper to Messrs. Hay & Co. at their shop in +the island of Fetlar?-I am. + +8763. How long have you been there?-Three years past on 1st +December. Before that I was a store-keeper with them in Lerwick. + +8764. Was that establishment in Lerwick the one from which both +Faroe fishers and home fishers got their supplies for the season, +and their outfit for the fishing?-Yes; and Messrs. Hay's country +shops were also supplied from that shop for the most part. + +8765. I understand the supplies for the country shops are sent +down to you with invoices of the prices at which you are to sell +them?-That is done with some shops belonging to Messrs. Hay, +but with others it is not. To some of them the goods are sent down +at cost price, and the shopkeeper fixes what prices he thinks right. +That is what is done at Fetlar. + +8766. I see from the books you have produced, that on September +25 oatmeal was 5s. 3d.: is that per lispund?-That is for a +quarter-boll. + +8767. Do you not sell by the lispund?-Sometimes we do, just as +the parties want it. + +8768. A quarter-boll would be 3 lbs. more than a lispund?-Yes. + +8769. And 5s. 3d. per quarter-boll would be for 35 lbs.?-Yes. + +8770. Have you the invoice showing at what price that was +invoiced to you from Lerwick?-I have not. + +8771. Do you remember how much it was invoiced at?-No. It +was not a fixed thing for the whole season; it varies. + +8772. When did you get your supplies of meal last summer?-It +comes from Aberdeen almost weekly or fortnightly during the time +the fishing continues. + +8773. You do not sell much meal in Fetlar after the fishing is +over?-No; the people then have their crops to depend upon. + +8774. When do you begin to sell the greatest quantity of goods at +your store?-About April; we begin to be much busier then. From +September until April the people are depending for the most part +upon their own crop, but sometimes they do take a little meal from +us. + +8775. Was 5s. 3d. per quarter-boll the selling price for meal during +the whole season?-No; it differs greatly. Sometimes you will see +it is more, and sometimes less. + +8776. I see that it is 5s. 3d. in September, and 5s. 9d. in July?- +Yes; I expect that would be about the dearest time. + +8777. I see an entry of oatmeal, 22s. 8d., in August?-That would +be for a boll. + +8778. Do you sell a boll at the same price, proportionally, as a +quarter-boll?-Just the same. + +8779. You do not make a difference for the retail?-None +whatever. + +8780. Do Messrs. Hay hold Fetlar, or any part of it, under tack?- +Not so far as I am aware. + +8781. Are the fishermen there bound to fish for them in any +way?-I don't think they are; at least not to my knowledge. +They have tenants there; at least they are not tenants exactly, but +Messrs. Hay are factors for the Earl of Zetland. I don't know how +Lord Zetland's tenants do, but I don't think they are bound. + +8782. At any rate they are not bound by their tacks in any way?- +Not so far as I am aware, + +[Page 214] + +8783. Is it mostly Lord Zetland's tenants who fish for Messrs. Hay +in Fetlar?-I think not. + +8784. Do some of Lady Nicholson's tenants fish for them also?- +Yes; I should think about half-and-half. + +8785. Are there any other proprietors in Fetlar than Lord Zetland +and Lady Nicholson?-Not for the fishermen. There are other +proprietors in the island, but none of their tenants fish. + +8786. I see here, under date June 1, 1871, an entry against George +Gaunson, 'Cash for penalty per current account, £4, 2s. 2d.:' what +does that mean?-He was summoned to court for some wrecked +timber that he was in possession of, and that was his penalty, +which was paid by me for him. + +8787. You entered that to his debit?-Yes. What meant by +'current account' is, that I paid the money at Lerwick, and it +was charged to me at current account, and I gave Hay & Co. +credit for it in my book at Fetlar. + +8788. How many tons of dry fish did you sell from Fetlar last +year?-We sold the following quantities for 1871: + + Tons. Cwt. Qrs. Lbs. + Ling, 32 2 3 11 + Tusk, 5 2 1 22 + Cod, 3 16 3 17 + Saith, 0 18 2 15 + +8789. Had you only ten boats' crews fishing for you last season?- +There were eleven boats. + +8790. Did they contain sixty-six men, or were some of them +smaller boats?-Some of them were smaller boats, with only five +men. For instance, in Laurence Donaldson's boat, although there +were only six men, there were five shares, because two boys count +for a share. + +8791. How many women and boys had you employed in curing at +Fetlar?-We had eight men and boys-no women. + +8792. Have the beach boys got accounts in the ledger also?-Yes. +They are all in one place. [Shows.] + +8793. The first is Laurence Brown. His fee was 10s., and, after +debiting his out-takes, he received 7s. 31/2d. in cash in full?-Yes. + +8794. The next is John Sinclair, jun.; after debiting his out-takes, +he received 8s. 4d. in cash?-Yes. + +8795. The next is John Coutts, who received 9s. 6d.?-Yes. + +8796. The next is James Laurenson; his fee was only 5s., and he +received 14s. 11/2d. in cash?-Yes. + +8797. The next is Arthur James Tulloch; his fee was 16s., and he +received 6s. 21/2d.?-Yes; he was only employed during part of the +season. I think I had eight besides him. + +8798. The next is Peter Sinclair; he had a fee of 10s., and, after +deducting his out-takes, he received 6d. in cash in full, but he had +received 19s. 6d. in cash during the season?-Yes. + +8799. The next is George Laurenson; his fee was £4 and he +received £1, 14s. 6d. in cash at settlement, and sundry small +sums in cash have been paid to him in the course of the year?- +Yes. He was a young lad, about sixteen years of age, I think. + +8800. The next is Robert Johnston; his fee was 15s., and he +received 7s. 1d. in cash at settlement, having received 5s. 4d. +in cash during the season?-Yes. + +8801. The next is George Donaldson; his fee was 10s. and he +received 9s. 1d. in cash at settlement?-Yes. + +8802. He seems to have got a number of loaves and biscuit?-Yes. +His supplies were almost entirely for food. + +8803. There are also the accounts of two men here; one of them is +Magnus Brown. Is he one of your principal curers?-Yes. + +8804. His fee, called beach-fee was £8, 5s., and he received +17s. 41/2d. in cash at settlement?-Yes. He received £1 at the +commencement, and the next entry is 6s. 9d. paid for purchase +at sale. That was purchase at a sale of wreck, which was paid +for him by me, and was the same as cash. Including that purchase +at the sale, he received about 30s. in cash in the course of the +season. + +8805. The next is Arthur N. Henderson: was the other +beach-man?-Yes. + +8806. His fee was £5; he received £1, 6s. 3d. in cash at settlement, +and 4s. 6d. was paid to him during the season?-Yes. + +8807. Were these all your beach people?-Yes. + +8808. Why are they not paid weekly wages?-They could have it +in that way if they wanted it. It would be all the same to us; I +don't see any difference. + +8809. Why do they not want it?-I don't think there is any +particular reason, except that they don't wish it in that way. + +8810. Do you think they would rather have it settled for at the end +of the year?-I think so. + +8811. Are not the people that Messrs. Hay employ in the curing at +Lerwick paid weekly wages?-Yes. + +8812. But at all the stations, I suppose, they are paid by beach +fees?-Yes; and these are paid at the end of the year. + +8813. The books which you keep at Fetlar are, first, the wet fish +book, in which each boat's crew has the amount of each delivery +of fish entered?-Yes. + +8814. Then you have another fish book showing the amount of dry +fish shipped by your different vessels?-Yes; that book [showing] +is for the season of 1871. + +8815. Do you begin to ship so early as June?-Yes. The men +generally catch a few fish in winter now, and these are shipped +first. The wet fish that are caught in winter are not in the book I +have brought. + +8816. Have you a separate book for your winter fish?-Yes. + +8817. What quantity of winter fish do you generally sell?-I +cannot say exactly; but for about two years I have had only about +2 or 21/2 tons of dry fish. They are cured along with the first fish +caught in the spring, and sent down. + +8818. Then the shipment on June 6th of 4 tons 7 cwt. of ling will +include some summer fish as well?-Yes, spring fish. + +8819. The only other book you keep is the ledger?-Yes, and the +goods account book-a book for the goods and the expenses on +the fish-curing. + +8820. How do you keep your goods account book?-I enter every +invoice as it comes from Lerwick, and against them I enter my +returns. + +8821. All your sales of goods are entered under the names of the +parties to whom they are sold?-Yes. + +8822. And that is the only entry of sales you make?-Yes. We +don't enter what we get ready money for. + +8823. You do not keep a waste day-book?-No. + +8824. How do you balance the accounts with your fishermen?- +The ledger will show. + +8825. Is that done by you, or by some one from, Lerwick?- +Always by some one from Lerwick. + +8826. How long does it generally take to get all your fishermen +settled with?-Not long; I think about three days. + +8827. Some one comes from Lerwick, and the fishermen come to +the office and are settled with in his presence and in yours?-Yes. + +8828. Are the accounts read over to the men, or do they generally +have a pass-book?-They are generally read over. Some carry a +pass-book, and some do not. + +8829. Are they always read over?-I don't think they are always +read over. Generally I read them, over before the men come up to +settle, so as to have them added up and ready. + +8830. The ledger is written up from day to day as the goods are +taken out?-Yes, perhaps twice or thrice, in a day. + +8831. And the fisherman signs at settlement?-Yes. + +8832. He signs also when there is a balance against him, which +sometimes happens?-Yes. + +8833. Have Messrs. Hay & Co. a spirit licence for the sale of +whisky?-No. + +8834. Do you not sell whisky at till?-No, not unless a man asks +me to order it for him; and that [Page 215] goes into the current +account at Lerwick, and is a separate thing altogether from the +ordinary dealings. + +8835. Is there no public-house in the island?-None. + +8836. Do you buy hosiery at the store in Fetlar?-None. + +8837. Are there any entries in this book [showing] relating to the +purchase of kelp?-The parties who work the kelp have accounts +in the book, and the kelp is credited to them there. + +8838. How many people are employed gathering kelp in Fetlar?- +There is no one regularly employed, only those who are ready to +make it. + +8839. Have Messrs. Hay & Co. a tack of the kelp shores?-No; it +is done by any one who wishes to make it. + +8840. And the entries are made to the credit of the women who +gather it and burn it?-Yes. + +8841. From how many of them have you made purchases during +last year?-Only from about half a dozen. I have only purchased +about 28 cwt. of it. + +8842. What is the price paid for it?-4s. 6d. a cwt. + +8843. Is that generally taken out in goods?-No. + +8844. Do you pay 4s. 6d. when it is paid in cash?-Just the same; I +make no difference. + +8845. Do you not have two prices for it as they have in some +places?-No; it is all the same to me whether they take money or +goods. I should like them to take the goods, no doubt, but I don't +compel them. + +8846. In Robina Fraser's account I see that she has got more +money than she has given kelp for: why was that?-She made a +promise to work more, but she has not done it yet. + +8847. Have you ever tried to send out a number of men to the +winter fishing in large boats from Fetlar?-No. + +8848. Do you consider that would be impracticable?-I think so. +The coast is rather tempestuous, with heavy tides, and I don't think +they would make anything of it. + +8849. Do you purchase cattle and other farm stock for Messrs. +Hay?-I purchase fat cattle at Martinmas, but only from the people +privately. I bought eleven last Martinmas. + +8850. Are these generally credited to the sellers in the ledger, or +are they paid for in cash?-They are paid for in cash at the time +when the cattle are taken away. + +8851. Do any of these purchases appear in the ledger?-No. + +8852. Are the rents on Lord Zetland's property in Fetlar collected +by you?-No, they are generally collected by the man who comes +up to settle with the fishermen. + +8853. Are separate receipts given for them?-Yes. + +8854. Does he also settle for the cattle?-No, I generally settle for +the cattle myself. + +8855. So that the cattle do not enter the rent account?-Sometimes +they do. Sometimes they wish me to send on the amount to Hay & +Co, to be credited in the next account. + +8856. Of the eleven cattle which you purchased last year, would +some be settled for in that way?-Yes. I cannot say how many, +but I think four. + +8857. You have no books showing that?-None here. + +8858. They will be in the possession of Messrs. Hay; or have you a +cattle-book?-No; I don't have one. + +8859. Do the purchases of cattle pass through your current account +with Hay & Co.?-Yes. + +8860. Have you a private account of your own?-My account is +in the ledger, but we have a current account besides that. That +current account contains whatever comes from Lerwick, charged +at the Lerwick retail prices, and then all my returns of money or +anything are put to the current account. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE GAUNSON, examined. + +8861. You are a fisherman in Fetlar, and a tenant on Lord +Zetland's property?-I am. + +8862. Are you at liberty to fish for any one you please?-I don't +know; we get as good a price from Messrs. Hay as we would get +from any one else, and we fish for them. + +8863. Is there any one else on the island who would buy your +fish?-There is only one man on the east side, Jerome Brown, +who takes a little besides Messrs. Hay's people. + +8864. But you don't know whether you are at liberty to fish for +Brown or not?-I don't know. + +8865. Did you make any arrangement about fishing when you took +your land?-I did not. + +8866. How long have you held it?-I think I have been 28 or 30 +years in the island. + +8867. Have you fished every year during that period?-Sometimes +I fished, and sometimes I was at sea. + +8868. But when you have been at home you have always fished, +and sold your fish to Messrs. Hay at the current price at the end of +the season?-Yes. + +8869. Have you generally found that you had balance in your +favour at the end of the season?-Yes, very often; but it did not +matter, because when I wanted anything, whether money or goods +or meal, I always got it. Very often we had no money for the +house, but we always got supplies from them. + +8870. Where do you sell your cattle and your eggs, and other farm +stock?-We sell them just wherever we can get any person to buy +them. There are cattle dealers and other persons who come about +buying them. + +8871. Do you sell oftener to them or to Messrs. Hay?-It makes +very little difference; when we have any cattle to sell, whenever +any one comes round he gets them. + +8872. Did you ever sell a beast to anybody but Messrs. Hay?- +Yes; many a time. I have sold some horses to lots of people who +were going about. I have sold some to Mr. Thomas Williamson, in +Yell. I think he got the last one I sold; it was in February. It was a +little horse. + +8873. Who have you sold your cattle to?-Sometimes to Messrs. +Hay's people, and sometimes to any other people who came round +asking for them. + +8874. Did you ever sell them to anybody except Messrs. Hay?-I +have. + +8875. When?-Some time before this. + +8876. How long ago?-Last year I had none but the horse. + +8877. Do you sell one or two beasts every year?-No; some years I +sell none at all, and some years only one. + +8878. Where do you sell your eggs?-Just anywhere that we can +get the best price for them. + +8879. Do you sell them generally to Messrs. Hay?-No; +sometimes not. + +8880. Is there anybody else in Fetlar who buys eggs?-Yes; Mr. +William Tulloch buys some. + +8881. Has he a small shop?-It is not a great deal of a shop that he +has. He deals in cottons and such as that, and he buys eggs. I get +6d. a dozen for them sometimes, and sometimes perhaps 7d. + +8882. Did you sell most of your eggs last year to Mr. Tulloch or to +Mr. Garrioch?-I could not say. I don't deal much in that way +myself. + +8883. You leave that to your wife?-Yes. + +8884. Do you always get your supplies from Hay Co.?-Yes. I +never deal with Tulloch or Brown, and there is no other shop in +the island that is worth going into. + +8885. But are there any other shops at all except Tulloch's and +Brown's?-I daresay some woman would sell some things +sometimes, but they would not be of any account. + +8886. Do you know where Tulloch and Brown, and that woman +you speak of, get the goods they sell don't know. + +[Page 216] + +8887. Do you generally get a good quality of stuff from Hay & +Co., at a fair price?-Yes; they are very fair prices. + +8888. Have you ever got goods at Lerwick?-Yes. + +8889. Do you find the goods supplied at Hay & Co.'s shop in +Fetlar to be as good and as cheap its those you get in Lerwick?- +Yes; I have no reason to complain about that. + +8890. What was the price of meal that you have been buying +lately?-It is much the same as we get it at in Lerwick; sometimes +it little higher and sometimes a little cheaper. I think last season +it was generally about 20s. per boll for oatmeal; but I don't +remember about that particularly. + +8891. Do you have to keep up your own houses and your own +fences?-Yes; the house I am living in was built when I came to +it, and it is the same yet; we have to keep it in good order. + +8892. The landlord does not do that for you?-I don't know; but +the last time something was done to the house it was put down to +Lord Zetland's account. + +8893. Are most of the tenants on Lord Zetland's property in Fetlar +fishing for Messrs. Hay?-I suppose most of them do. + +8894. Do they generally understand that they are under any +obligation to fish for them?-I don't think so; but it would make +very little difference fishing for any other body, when we would +get the same price from them. + +8895. You don't think of curing your own fish, then?-No. + +8896. Where do the Fetlar people sell their hosiery?-Generally in +Lerwick; they go down there with it. My family do not knit much, +because they have no wool, unless they get some to buy. + +8897. What is paid for wool?-Sometimes it is 2s. per lb. for fine +wool, sometimes 1s. 6d., and so on. + +8898. Do you get that from your neighbours?-There are not many +neighbours near us who have any sheep. + +8899. Where do you buy it, then?-Sometimes we go to Lerwick +and buy it, and sometimes in Yell. + +8900. Is there no shop in Fetlar where you can buy it?-No. + +8901. Where do you buy it in Lerwick?-I don't know; I do not +buy it myself. They buy it just at any place where they can get it +best. + +8902. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Hay & Co. + +8903. Is it deducted from your account when you settle?-Yes. + +8904. Have you ever tried the winter fishing?-No; they don't do +much in that with us. They might catch some in winter, but not +many. They have generally a long way to go to seek them, and it +requires particularly good weather to go out with the little boats. + +8905. Have you not large enough boats for the winter fishing?- +No. + +8906. Do you think you could do anything if you had large decked +boats?-I don't know; they have never tried them there. They +might do something with them, but I don't think they would pay +very well. + +8907. Have your rents been raised lately?-No; they were raised a +little about eight or nine years ago. + +8908. Was there any different arrangement made at that time about +the fishing?-No. + +8909. Have you ever known any man in Fetlar who had to pay +liberty money for freedom to sell his fish to another than the +tacksman or factor?-No. + +8910. And no man in your time has been put out of his ground for +fishing to another?-No; I never heard of anything of the kind in +Fetlar, either on Lord Zetland's or Lady Nicholson's ground. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, WILLIAM STEWART, examined. + +8911. You are a tenant and fisherman at Seafield, Mid Yell?- +Yes. Kirkabister is the town I live in. + +8912. Who is your landlord?-Mrs. Budge. + +8913. To whom do you sell your fish now?-I have sold them this +year to Mr. Thomas Williamson. + +8914. Who did you sell them to last year?-To Mr. Laurence +Williamson, Linkshouse. + +8915. Why did you leave him?-Because Mr. Sievwright, Mrs. +Budge's factor, wished us to do it. + +8916. Did you get a letter from him about the fishing?-Yes. + +8917. Have you got it?-Yes. [Produces the following letter]: + +'<Lerwick>, 22<d Nov>. 1870. +'WILLIAM, I now write, as I promised, to explain what I +expect the Seafield tenants to do in regard to fishing, that you may +communicate the same to them. + +'The business premises at Seafield cannot be allowed to +remain vacant, and consequently unprofitable while it is clear +they must do so unless the tenants fish to the tenant of these +premises. The Seafield tenants, therefore, must fish to Mr. +Thomas Williamson upon fair and reasonable terms, and I +understand he is quite prepared to meet them on such terms. +I believe he will, in every respect, do you justice; and so long +as he does so, you have no reason to complain. But should it +happen that he fails to treat you fairly and honourably (of which +I have no fear), you can let me know, and matters will soon be put +right. You and the tenants, however, must not act towards Mr. +Williamson in a selfish or hard way either, for it is quite as +possible for you to do so to him as it is for him to do so to you. +Both he and you all must work together, heartily and agreeably; +and if you do so, I have no fear, humanly speaking, that the result +will be success to both.-I am, yours faithfully, W. SIEVWRIGHT. + 'William Stewart, Kirkabister, Seafield, Mid Yell.' + +8918. Is that the only letter you have got on the subject?-The +only one. + +8919. Have you a written tack?-No. + +8920. You hold your land from year to year?-Yes. + +8921. Have you, since you received that letter, fished for Mr. +Thomas Williamson?-Yes, in the spring and summer. + +8922. And in winter?-In winter there was not a great deal doing. + +8923. But what fish you did catch, what did you do with them?-I +believe we sometimes went to Mr. Laurence Williamson and +sometimes to Mr. Thomas Williamson with them, just as it suited. + +8924. When you received that letter, had you made any +arrangement to fish for the following year?-No. + +8925. Had you not arranged to fish for Mr Laurence +Williamson?-No, not for myself. + +8926. Nor for any one else?-No. There were none of our boat's +crew who had made any arrangement with Laurence Williamson, +so far as I know; but the other boat's crew I think had made some +sort of arrangement. There are only two boats' crews that belong +to Mrs. Budge's property. + +8927. How many tenants are there on her property?-I think there +were formerly 23, but now there are only either 21 or 22. + +8928. Mr. Sievwright speaks in his letter about the business +premises at Seafield: what do you understand by that?-The shop +and the station. + +8929. Are there a merchant's shop and a curing station at +Seafield?-Yes. + +8930. Were they not let previously to the time when that letter was +written?-No. + +8931. Do you get the same price from Mr. Thomas Williamson +that Mr. Laurence Williamson used to give you?-Yes. + +8932. That was the current price at the end of the year?-Yes. + +8933. But you have got your goods from him instead of buying +them from Laurence Williamson?-For myself I did; but I think +some of the men bought their goods from Lerwick. + +8934. Were these men paid in cash?-Yes. + +8935. Was Mr. Thomas Williamson's shop [Page 217]the nearest +place to your house where you could get goods?-Yes. + +8936. Did you take your goods from him before you fished for +him?-Sometimes. I had a sort of running account at his shop. I +was doing bits of jobs for him, and sometimes I got money, and +sometimes I took some of his goods. + +8937. But you did not do so much with him before as after you got +that letter?-No; the principal part of my dealing was for the +fishing. + +8938. But you did not buy so many goods from him before last +winter?-Certainly not. + +8939. Did you buy from Mr. Laurence Williamson then?-I did, +because I was keeping a running account with him then. + +8940. Do you keep a running account with him now?-I was +forced to do that, because I was not clear with him when I went to +fish for Mr. Thomas Williamson. + +8941. Were you therefore forced to keep a running account with +him?-I was not in any way forced, but the account was not +cleared up, because I did not have the means. + +8942. Have you added to it since then?-Not much. + +8943. But it is not paid up?-It is not; I have never been able to do +it. + +8944. Do you ever sell any beasts off your ground?-I sold one at +1st May last year, at the sale. + +8945. Who was the purchaser?-Mr. Thomas Williamson. + +8946. Was that at a sale at Mid Yell for the whole country?-The +sale to which I went was at Cullivoe for North Yell. + +8947. Had you promised Mr. Thomas Williamson the beast before +you went?-No. When I went I was at liberty to sell it to any one I +liked, but he bought the beast at the roup. + +8948. Did anybody else bid for it?-No. + +8949. Was it marked?-No. It never was entered into the bill of +sale at the roup. + +8950. But were the horns of the beast marked at any time?-I +don't know. + +8951. Why was it not entered in the bill of sale?-I made an +agreement with Williamson just to take it away at the price I fixed. +He said he would give what I asked for it. I asked £5, and I sent +the beast home, and he gave me that for it. + +8952. That took place in the first season you fished for Mr. +Thomas Williamson?-Yes. + +8953. By that time, I suppose, he had a little account against +you?-I don't think it would be much. About that time the spring +fishing was finished, and I don't think there was very much either +way between us. I don't think I had much to give him, or that he +had much to give me. + +8954. Have you a pass-book?-No. + +8955. How was the price of that beast paid?-It was remitted to +Mr. Sievwright for my previous year's rent. + +8956. Why had you not paid it before?-Because I had not the +means. + +8957. Had Mr. Sievwright been asking you for your rent before?- +Yes. When he was here at Hallowmas I offered him the beast, and +he told me to keep her until any time when I was aware that cattle +would be at the best price. + +8958. Did he say anything to you about selling it?-No. I just sold +it to Mr. Williamson, and he remitted the money to Mr. +Sievwright. + +8959. Was that arranged between you and Mr. Sievwright, or +between you and Mr. Williamson?-It was arranged between Mr. +Williamson and me that he was to send on the money. + +8960. Did Williamson ask you to agree to that arrangement?-No; +I asked him to do it for me, because he was in the habit of writing +to Mr. Sievwright oftener than me. + +8961. Had you paid your rent through Mr. Williamson before, or +have you done it since?-No. + +8962. Have you paid your rent that was due at November?-I have +not paid it yet. I intended to be in Lerwick before this time, but I +have not been able to get. + +8963. Have you settled with Mr. Williamson for the last year's +fishing?-Yes. I think I had £6, 14s. to get, and I got it in cash. + +8964. Did none of that go to pay your rent?-It is lying yet to go. I +have it in my possession, because I have not seen Mr. Sievwright +since. + +8965. What price do you pay for meal at Seafield?-I think the +first I got was 22s. 6d. I think the last was much about the same, +but there might be a difference of 6d. or so. + +8966. Was it of good quality?-It was very good. + +8967. Where does your wife sell her eggs?-Anywhere that she +can get the best tea, from Lerwick north to Seafield. + +8968. Does she always sell them for tea?-For tea, or any small +thing she can get. + +8969. Are these sales settled for at the time?-Yes; they are settled +right away. + +8970. How much tea will she get for a dozen eggs?-I cannot tell, +because I leave all these matters to her. + +8971. Where does she sell her knitting?-She does not do much of +that. + +8972. Has she an account of her own?-No; she never had. + +8973. Is there any kelp gathered here?-Very little. + +8974. Who buys it?-Mr Thomas Williamson has bought some for +a year or two back but I don't think he bought any last year. My +eldest daughter was employed for two years in working at it in the +summer time, and I think she had an account for it; but I don't +know much about that. + +8975. Were you at one time a tenant in Whalsay?-Yes. + +8976. When did you leave it?-In 1862. + +8977. Up till that time you were a tenant under Mr. Bruce of +Simbister?-Yes. + +8978. What rent did you pay there?-The rent I always paid for +my ground was 26s. + +8979. Did you fish for Mr. Bruce at that time?-Yes, for the late +Mr. William Bruce. + +8980. And you had an account with him at the shop in Whalsay?- +Yes. + +8981. How did you pay your rent?-Generally by fishing. + +8982. Was it put into your account?-Yes. The thing was carried +on on a very strange system. Our land was put in to us at a low +rent, and our fish were taken from us at as low a value. The prices +for the fish never varied, either for the spring or summer. + +8983. Do you mean that they were the same every year?-They +were. Whatever they might be in the markets, they were all the +same to us. + +8984. Had you never the benefit of a rise in the market at all?- +Never. + +8985. Did you not object to that?-We just had to content +ourselves with it, or leave the place. + +8986. It was part of your bargain for your land, that you were to +give your fish at a certain rate?-Yes; there were so much of the +fish taken off for the land. That was the first of the fishing. We +got 3s. 4d. cwt. for ling, 2s. 6d. for tusk, and 20d. for cod, and so +much of each kind of fish was taken off until the land was paid +for; and then the prices were raised to 4s., I think, for ling, 3s. 2d. +for tusk, and 2s. 6d. for cod, for all the rest of the summer fishing. + +8987. Did you get these prices for a number of years?-I think for +the thirteen years that I was on the station they never varied one +halfpenny for the summer fishing. The prices for the winter +fishing varied little. Sometimes we would sell the small cod as +low as 2s. 6d., and at other times at 3s. + +8988. Did you sell the winter fishing for payment at the time, or +did it go into the account too?-It was never put into the account +at all; we just got what we required for it. It was ready payment; +but it was very rarely that we got money for the winter fishing. + +8989. Did you know at the time that the prices you [Page 218] +were paid at the latter part of the season were lower than the +market price of the fish?-We knew that but it was just the +bargain. + +8990. Was that the system with all the tenants in that time?-With +every one. + +8991. When did that system cease?-I think it ceased about a year +after I came here about 1863. + +8992. Why did you leave Whalsay?-There was new division of +the land, and I did not consider that I was getting a good farm. I +was personally acquainted with Mr. Budge, who was leaving the +island then and coming to this property, and I came along with +him. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, LAURENCE WILLIAMSON, examined. + +8993. You are a merchant in this neighbourhood?-Yes; at +Linkshouse, Mid Yell. + +8994. Have you been long in business there?-Nearly eight years. + +8995. On whose property are your premises?-The late Robert +Nevin Spence's property. + +8996. Are there many tenants on it?-There are a few, but I could +not tell the number exactly. + +8997. Are they engaged in fishing?-Some of them are. + +8998. Are they at liberty to fish to any one they please?-Yes. + +8999. You were engaged in the fish-curing business to a certain +extent?-Yes. I do very little in it now. + +9000. Your business has been considerably reduced?-Yes. + +9001. Has that been since Mr. Sievwright wrote the letter which +was produced by the last witness?-Yes. Mrs. Budge's tenants +were the men that I had fishing to me and when they went away I +could not fill up my boats. + +9002. Had you made arrangements with any men for the fishing of +last season when they were taken away?-Yes. It was rather too +late when they let me know they were going. + +9003. How do you mean that they were too late?-They +commonly make up their boats' crews about Hallowmas or +Martinmas, at the time of settlement, and one of the crews had +agreed to fish for me for the rising season, not knowing then that +they were to be taken away. Of course they had to leave me, +because they knew, or at least they believed, they would be +differently dealt with if they did not leave. + +9004. Did you make any objection to them leaving after having +struck a bargain with you?-Yes, I slightly objected to it; but, of +course, I could not help it. + +9005. In what way did you object?-The men who formed that +boat's crew had signed a sort of written agreement that they were +to fish for me in the rising year, on the same terms as they had +agreed with me before. Sometimes they don't have a written +agreement, only a verbal one, but on this occasion there was +written agreement entered into. + +9006. I suppose a verbal agreement is the usual way of arranging +for the season's fishing?-Yes, generally. + +9007. Did these men happen to have a written agreement?-Yes; +we had a little bit form drawn up and agreed to. + +9008. Had you any reason for having a written agreement at that +time?-I was rather doubtful in my own mind that they would be +leaving me, or rather that they would be forced to leave. + +9009. Was that because there had been some talk about Mr. +Thomas Williamson getting these fishermen?-The talk was not +about Mr. Thomas Williamson at that time, but about Mr. Magnus +Mouat. I think his name was mentioned when the talk commenced +about the men leaving. + +9010. But you did not insist in your objection to your agreement +with the men being departed from?-No. + +9011. Was that for fear of injuring the men?-Yes. Of course I +saw that I could not legally hold them. + +9012. Why? If they had agreed to fish for you, were they not +bound to fulfil their bargain?-I thought I could not legally hold +them, and I just let them go. + +9013. Were you not afraid of them suffering for it if they fulfilled +their bargain with you?-They must have suffered for it too. + +9014. Did you make any representation on the subject to Mr. +Sievwright?-No. The only communication I had was with the +men themselves. + +9015. How many men did you lose in that way?-Twelve. + +9016. Were some of these men in your debt at the time?-Some of +them were. They had a sort of running account. + +9017. Have you any men fishing for you this year at all?-For the +rising year I believe we will have two or three boats' crews. + +9018. Had you any last year?-We had two. I and another man are +in a sort of company, and we had two boats last year-one each. + +9019. Did you find that the fact of Mrs. Budge's tenants leaving +you and going across the water materially affected your business in +the shop?-I cannot say that it injured it very much. + +9020. But it would make some difference?-I don't think it made +a great deal. + +9021. Were not their accounts taken away from you?-There are a +good many of them who deal with me still, but not to the same +extent. + +9022. From what quarter did you get your fishermen who engaged +with you for the rising season?-From the parish of North Yell. +That is the next parish to this. + +9023. How far do they live from you?-Some of them are 10 miles +from here. + +9024. What estates are they on?-I could hardly tell, except about +some of them. + +9025. Have any of these men accounts for supplies in your +shop?-Yes; perhaps 4 or 5 of them. + +9026. For whom were they fishing last year?-Some of them +fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co, and some for Spence & Co. + +9027. Do you know why they are leaving these merchants?-I +cannot say. + +9028. Have you offered them better terms?-I don't think so. +They hardly ever say what they have been getting before. We +just make them an offer, and if they accept it we come to an +understanding. + +9029. Do you know whether any of them were indebted, at last +settlement, to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., or Spence & Co.?-I cannot +say. + +9030. Are these men nearer to Greenbank than to you?-Yes, a +great deal. + +9031. Are your accounts with fishermen kept in a ledger?-I keep +them in a sort of shop ledger. Each boat's crew has a company +account, and each man has private account. [Produces ledger.] + +9032. Your fish-book is a separate book?-Yes; with columns +showing the weight of the fish delivered. + +9033. What are these pages which you have turned down in your +ledger?-They contain the account of William Stewart, who has +just been examined. + +9034. I see that for 1869 the balance of his account carried +forward was £10, 0s. 41/2d., the total of his out-takes at the end +of 1869, including that balance was £17, 8s. 11d. The balance +due by him then was £6, 19s., after allowing £10, 9s. 11d. for +his fish, which was reduced by half of skipper's fee £1, being a +balance of £5, 19s. carried to the year 1870?-Yes. + +9035. Then in 1870 there is an entry of 13s. 11/2d. account at North +Yell: what does that mean?-That is for some small things he got +there. We cure our fish there. + +9036. The amount of his account at the settlement of 1870 was +£17, 6s. 01/2d., and the amount of his fishing was £14, 18s. 41/2d., +leaving a balance of £2, 7s. 8d. There is it deduction of 17s. 6d.: +what was that for?-It was for a man who went off for Stewart. + +[Page 219] + +9037. Then there is it check for 19s.?-That was a check he gave +me for that sum. + +9038. The balance which is left is £2, 6s. 2d.?-Yes. + +9039. On January 4, 1871, there are-spirits 2s. 21/2d., and on +November 18 and November 29 there are additional supplies to +the amount of 11s. 6d., making the balance now due £2, 19s. +101/2d?-Yes. + +9040. Are these all the supplies that you have given him since he +ceased to fish for you?-Yes. These are all that have been entered +in the book. + +9041. But he may have got others and paid for them in cash?- +Yes. + +9042. And he would get goods in payment for his winter +fishing?-He has not been at the winter fishing this year. + +9043. Or at the spring fishing last year?-He was at the spring +fishing for Mr. Thomas Williamson. + +9044. What men have you engaged for the rising year?-The +engagement has been made partly with my partner in North Yell, +and I don't know the names of them yet. + +9045. But you know which men have opened accounts with you +from North Yell?-Yes. There is Charles More, Gutcher, North +Yell; he has got supplies to the amount of 19s. 8d.; and Thomas +Brown, who has got supplies to the amount of 17s. + +9046. Are these men bound to you now by written engagement?- +No, it is merely verbal. Their boat's crew is made up. + +9047. Who is your partner in North Yell?-Arthur Nicholson; he +has a shop of his own at Gutcher. + +9048. Has he boats of his own besides those he has in company +with you?-No; but we have never been rightly in company. He +has been doing my work in North Yell, and getting a fee for it, and +our fish have been thrown together, and sold together. + +9049. Is this [showing] the only book you keep?-It is the only +book I keep for accounts. I keep an invoice-book and it fish-book +also. + +9050. Do you keep a day-book?-I keep a book for scrawling +things into, until they are posted up in the ledger. + +9051. Do you buy kelp?-No. + +9052. Do you buy hosiery?-A little sometimes. + +9053. Do you pay for it in the way that is usual in the country, by +goods across the counter?-Yes, mostly. + +9054. Do you give out wool to knit?-I sometimes give out +worsted, and I pay for the knitting of it in the same way. + +9055. Have you a knitters' book, or are the knitters' accounts kept +in the ledger?-I keep a book for women's accounts. + +9056. Is that book used entirely for sales of hosiery?-No. We +don't do a great deal in hosiery. We buy few haps and small +shawls, but the principal thing we buy is worsted. I buy a good +deal in the course year from the spinners, and I sell it chiefly in +Lerwick to the merchants there. I sell most of it to Mr. Robert +Linklater. I invoice it to the merchants, and I take a note of the +quantities when I send them away. + +9057. When did you send away the last?-I suppose it would be +about a couple of months ago. + +9058. At what price did you send it out?-We get 3d. per cut for +very fine, and 21/2d. and 2d. for the coarsest. + +9059. You sell to the merchants as a sort of wholesale dealer?- +Yes. + +9060. The price per pound of that worsted varies according to the +quality?-Yes. + +9061. It does not correspond with the price per cut in any way?- +No. Of course the finer the worsted the finer the thread is. + +9062. You do not calculate the price of that worsted, by the pound +at all?-No. We just judge of the fineness or the thickness of it. + +9063. The names of the men who were fishing for you in 1871 are +entered in the ledger?-Yes. + +9064. Had you generally more than two boats previous to last +year?-Yes. We sometimes had four, but that was the most I ever +had. This [showing] is the company account for one of the boats, +Basil Ramsay & Co., and then there are the private accounts of the +men. + +9065. In Basil Ramsay's private account, the entry 'to cash to rent' +on November 17, 1869, referred to cash advanced to him for the +purpose of paying his rent?-Yes. He was at that time £2, 11s. +61/2d. in my debt upon the settlement of the previous year. After a +bad year I have to advance money to the fishermen in that way, in +order to prevent them from being turned out. + +9066. Here [showing] is an account of Janet Sinclair, Herra: who is +she?-She keeps a small shop of her own, and sells things for me +at Herra and buys worsted for me. + +9067. Have you many women employed in that way selling goods +for you?-Only that one. + +9068. In another account there is meal 3s.-that would be half a +lispund-in August 1871: was that the selling price at the time?- +Very likely it was. + +9069. There is also flour 1s. 2d. on the same date: how much was +that?-8 lbs., or a peck. + +9070. Where do you get your supplies of meal and flour?-Chiefly +from Lerwick, from R. & C. Robertson. + +9071. Would you consider yourself likely to drive a much larger +business if you had a number of fishermen in your employment?- +I don't know. Of course there would be more men and more stir +and more traffic, and I would likely turn over more goods, because +if the men could buy as cheaply from me they would not go +anywhere else. + +9072. Have you ever had any difficulty in getting the men from +another merchant to fish for you in consequence of them being in +debt to that other merchant-I never tried that. + +9073. But have you found that men had difficulty in engaging with +you on that account?-No. + +9074. Have you ever been asked by any merchant to undertake the +debt due to him by any man whom you employed?-I have never +been asked by the merchant, but I have been asked by the men for +a little money to clear off their account with another merchant +when I engaged them. + +9075. Have you been asked to be a security for them?-No. I have +only given them cash. + +9076. When did you do that last?-It is five years ago. There +was a boat's crew who left Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at that time and +came over to me. That was Basil Ramsay's boat. + +9077. And you advanced them money with which to pay their debt +to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; there was a little advance +required. + +9078. Do you suppose you will have that to do with the boats' +crews you have engaged this year?-I don't think so. + +9079. Do you know whether they are clear?-I don't know. + +9080. How do you ascertain the current price at the end of the year +for settling with your men?-We know what the fish cost, and we +know what they sell for. We know what the wet fish turn out dry. +We can make a calculation of that from the quantity of green fish +delivered to us and from the quantity of dry fish which we have to +sell. + +9081. How much was the proportion in your settlement last +year?-I cannot tell exactly what it was last year, but on an +average it is 2 cwt. 14 lbs. to 2 cwt. 20 lbs. of wet fish to 1 cwt. +of dry fish. + +9082. Do you make the allowance according to the proportion you +ascertain in each year to exist between your total weight of dry fish +and your total weight of green fish?-Yes; there are calculations +of that kind made. I don't do it personally, but I believe some of +the big curers do it, and then we pay after them. + +9083. Do all the large curers agree upon a certain average for +each year?-No; they don't make each other acquainted with that. +They just pay according to what they sell the fish for, and they give +the fishermen the benefit of the rise or fall in the market. + +[Page 220] + +9084. I am not talking of the average of the current price; I am +talking of the average weight of the dry fish as against the green. +Does each merchant make his own calculation with regard to +that?-I suppose so. I have made calculations in some years, and +in others I have not. + +9085. How do you take it when you do not make it calculation?-I +wait until I see what is current, and then I pay the same. + +9086. That is for the money price, but the current price depends on +the proportion of dry fish to green?-Yes. + +9087. You find out what the large curers have been selling for or +have been allowing their men, and you give the same?-Yes. + +9088. Are you aware whether all the large curers give the same +current price or does it vary with the different houses?-In North +Yell, Spence & Co. have some fishermen, and Pole, Hoseason, & +Co. have some. We hear what their men are paid, and then our +men are paid the same. + +9089. Do Pole Hoseason, & Co, and Spence & Co., so far as you +know, always pay the same rate?-Yes. + +9090. Do you know how their current rate is fixed, or how it is +ascertained what the men are to get?-I suppose they just make +a calculation in the way I have mentioned. + +9091. But you don't know anything about it except that you +hear what they pay?-No. I make a calculation for myself to see +whether it is over or under, but we tell our men that we will give +the current price stated for these parties if they will come and fish +for us. + +9092. Is your bargain with regard to boat hire the price of lines, +and so on, the same with your men as Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have +with their men?-Sometimes it varies a little; it is not always +fixed. Sometimes we give the men half-a-year's hire off, as an +encouragement. They are what are called freemen, and we have to +give them some inducement before they will come to us. + +9093. What is the usual hire in Yell?-The hire is divided into +two. It is £6: £2, 8s. for the boat, and £3, 12s. for the lines. + +9094. Is that charged against the boat in the company account?- +It is just made up in the balance with the men, and settled for by +them. They always carry pass-books. + +9095. Then that does not enter the company account?-No. + +9096. What is entered in the company account?-It is just the +goods got for the supply of the men during the fishing season at +the fishing station. [Shows one account.] The North Yell account +is an account kept at the station in a pass-book. The boat's hire is +estimated before the earnings are divided into six; we make a +balance sheet of it, which is added up, and then we place each +man's balance to his account. + +9097. When you make a deduction from the boat hire as an +inducement for the men to fish for you, do you mean that instead +of £2, 8s. you charge them only £1, 4s.?-Sometimes we take +more off than that. Perhaps on a £6 hire we will take off £3. + +9098. Is not that a very liberal deduction?-Yes. + +9099. You cannot have much profit on your boats when you do +that?-There is no profit on the boats whatever. + +9100. What profit do you get on hiring out boats at all?-We get +no benefit from that. We only get little benefit from the fish and +from the goods sold. + +9101. Is it usual to allow so large a deduction from the boat +hire?-I cannot say what is done by any one but myself. We +have not been in the habit of doing it much. We sometimes take +a little off the hire of the boat, in order to make it as moderate for +the men as possible. + +9102. Are you doing that just now in order to induce fishermen to +come to you?-Yes. They come and say they will fish for us if we +will give them the currency, and perhaps half the hire down, or the +whole hire down. + +9103. So that the deduction on the boat hire is really a premium +for them coming to fish for you?-Exactly. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ROBERT SMITH, examined. + +9104. You are now a fisherman and tenant at Burravoe, on the +land of Mr. Henderson?-I am. + +9105. Were you formerly resident on the island of Samphray?- +Yes. I was there for 35 years. + +9106. For whom did you fish when you were there?-For Mr. +Robert Hoseason, and his son-in-law James Hoseason, all that +time. + +9107. Did the island belong to them?-Half of it did, and the other +half belonged to Lord Zetland. I lived on Mr. Hoseason's half. + +9108. Were you bound to fish for them at that time?-Yes. + +9109. Did you ever sell your fish to any one else?-No; we had no +occasion to do so, because we got the same payment from him as +from another. + +9110. Did you never sell your winter fish to another?-No. + +9111. Where did you get your supplies at that time?-From Mr. +Hoseason at Mossbank. + +9112. You kept an account with him, and settled at the end of the +year?-Yes, every year. + +9113. Had you generally anything to get at the settlement?- +Sometimes we had a few pounds to get, and sometimes we +could not afford to pay the balance. + +9114. You never dealt anywhere else at all?-No; there was no +one else near hand that we could have gone to. + +9115. Did you never think of going to Lerwick?-No; we went +very often to Lerwick, but not in the way of dealing. It was always +from Mr. Hoseason that we got what we wanted when he was +employing + +9116. When you left Samphray you came to Burravoe?-Yes. + +9117. Why did you leave?-Because Samphray was thrown waste +and made into a park for sheep and cattle. + +9118. You have since lived at Burravoe and fished for Mr. +Henderson?-Yes. + +9119. You have been a skipper of his?-Yes. + +9120. Are you to fish for him next year?-I don't know if I will be +able to go; I am getting too old. I have been at the fishing every +year since 1820. + +9121. Is it the bargain with you at Burravoe that you are to fish for +your landlord?-Yes. + +9122. But you will not be put out of your land if you give up +fishing altogether?-No, not that I know of. I have no thought of +that at the present time; at least I have no knowledge of it. + +9123. Have you spoken to Mr. Henderson about not fishing for +him next year?-I have not. I have not made a settlement yet. + +9124. Did he not tell you that he would not remove you this +year?-No, he has not told me that; but I expect that he will not +remove me if I can pay my rent. He has been very kind to me. + +9125. Are you sure that he did not tell you that you might remain +this year?-I am sure he did not, but he told me that he would not +throw me off while I was able to do anything. That is all the +security I have. + +9126. What do you mean by doing anything?-Any employment +that he may put me to, or anything in the way of fishing if I am +able to go to it. + +9127. Does not the payment of your rent depend upon your +fishing?-Sometimes it does; but if I have a cow to dispose of +and he requires it, he takes it. If he does not require it, I am at +liberty to dispose of it to any one that I can sell it to. + +9128. When he takes it, how do you settle about the price?-It +generally goes into my account. + +[Page 221] + +9129. But who fixes the price that is put upon it?-I do. I ask +him if he will give me so much for it, and if I can get a better price +elsewhere I can sell it there. + +9130. Did you ever sell a cow to anybody else than Mr. +Henderson?-Yes. I have not sold cows, but I have sold +young stots. About three years ago I sold three young stots- +one to Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, and another to a man who +came round; I don't know his name. + +9131. Did not Mr. Henderson want these?-No. He engaged for +one, and then when the man came about asking if he could get +beasts to buy, Mr. Henderson told him to call upon us for them. + +9132. Did Mr. Leask and the other man pay the money down to +you for the beasts they bought?-Yes; it was sent from Lerwick to +me. + +9133. Were you due rent to Mr. Henderson at that time, or any +account for goods?-Perhaps I was; it was very seldom that I was +not due him an account. + +9134. Why was that?-Because the fishing often did not turn out +well. + +9135. Did you ever go to any one except Mr. Henderson for your +goods since you went to live at Burravoe?-If Mr. Henderson did +not have what we wanted, then we would go to another for it. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ANDREW BLANCE, examined. + +9136. Are you a fisherman, living at Burravoe?-Yes. I am a +fisherman, but part of my time has been employed in the seal and +whale fishing. + +9137. Have you any land at Burravoe?-Yes, I occupy some land +there under Mr. M'Queen. + +9138. Have you ever been at the summer fishing?-Yes; I was +at the ling fishing for two years, one year for Mr. William +Williamson, who has lately left Ulsta, and the other year for +Mr. Henderson. + +9139. When you were at Ulsta did you run an account for what you +wanted from Mr. Williamson?-Yes, a small account. If he had +any small things that I wanted, and if I saw that I could get them a +bargain, I took them from him. + +9140. That account was settled at the end of the year?-Yes. + +9141. And you got the other things you wanted at Burravoe or +Lerwick, or wherever you liked?-Yes. + +9142. Where did you get most of your goods?-At Lerwick. + +9143. Did you find it more profitable to get them there?-I don't +know that it was more profitable; but for a long time the most of +my accounts have been in Lerwick. + +9144. How often have you been at the seal and whale fishing?-I +have been there every year for, I think, the last fifteen or fourteen +years. + +9145. Is that the reason why most of your accounts are in +Lerwick?-I suppose it is. + +9146. It is handier for you to have them there when you go to the +whale fishing?-Yes. + +9147. What agent do you generally engage with for that fishing?- +Messrs. Hay & Co. I have always engaged through them, except +one season when I was engaged for six weeks by Mr. Leask. That +was for the sealing voyage in 1867. + +9148. When do you generally go to Lerwick to engage for the +whaling?-About the end of February or beginning of March. + +9149. Do you go straight to Messrs. Hay's office and tell them you +want an engagement?-No, I don't go straight there; but I have +always found them very favourable towards me, and therefore I +have always been inclined to go out from them. + +9150. Do you get your outfit supplied there?-Yes, if I require it. + +9151. Do you require a new outfit for the whaling every year?- +We always require something new. + +9152. Do you also require supplies for your family while you are +away at the fishing, such as meal, tea, flour, and things of that sort, +and clothing?-Yes. + +9153. Where do you keep your account for these things?-With +Messrs. Hay & Co. + +9154. You always get an advance paid down to you when you are +first engaged?-Yes; we get our first month's advance, and then +we get a half-pay ticket. + +9155. Do you always get a half-pay ticket?-Yes, those who +require it. + +9156. But do you always get it?-Yes; I have got it ever since it +came up. I think it is only four or five years since it came to be +used in Shetland. + +9157. Were there no allotment tickets in use before four or five +years ago?-No, not in Shetland. I never saw them before that +time. + +9158. Do you leave your allotment ticket with your wife?-We +can leave it with any one we choose. I have generally left it with +Messrs. Hay. + +9159. Did you write anything upon it when you left it with +them?-No. + +9160. Is the allotment ticket an order to pay to you?-Yes, or to +any name which is signed on it. + +9161. Was it generally taken in your own name?-I had to +mention the name of some person to be filled into the note, and +the name of any person that I wanted to draw the money was +signed there. + +9162. What name did you generally give to be entered in the +note?-I forget; but I think the name of Mr. William Robertson, +in Messrs. Hay's shop, has been upon it. + +9163. Was that done last year?-Yes. + +9164. Was his name on it in 1870 also?-I cannot exactly say. + +9165. But last year you know that it was?-Yes. + +9166. And he was to draw the money on your half-pay allotment +ticket?-Yes; he has the ticket, and while he keeps it he knows +that no person can be drawing the money. They know that the +money is lying, but I don't think Mr. Robertson has drawn the +halfpay for me ever since the system commenced. + +9167. Was the purpose of giving the allotment ticket to Mr. +Robertson, that Messrs. Hay might give your family credit for +goods in your absence; or was it a sort of security?-It was a +sort of security; but I had no fear about them providing for my +family, even although they had not got the ticket. + +9168. You think they would have made the advances at any +rate?-Yes. They never refused either goods or money. + +9169. But still the allotment ticket was a sort of security to +them?-Yes. + +9170. When you return from your voyage do you generally go +straight home or do you take your wages at Lerwick?-I take +my wages at Lerwick. + +9171. Before you come home?-Yes, if possible. + +9172. Do you go up and settle before the shipping-master or +superintendent?-Yes, I must do that. + +9173. That did not use to be done at Lerwick?-It did not. + +9174. Why has it been done lately?-I don't know. + +9175. Was it not because it was not easy to get the Shetland men +to wait for a settlement-they were so anxious to get home?- +Perhaps it was. I and several others have to go to the North Isles +and it is not every day we can get there. Staying one day in +Lerwick might make us stay half a dozen, or perhaps a dozen, +days; and therefore if we see a chance to get home whenever we +land we are glad to take it. + +9176. Then you go back when you find it convenient?-Yes. + +9177. And you go before Mr. Gatherer the superintendent, and +receive your wages in cash?-Yes; but many a time we have the +chance of getting our money before we leave Lerwick if we could +only wait another day. + +9178. When you have an account standing in Messrs. Hay's books, +how do you settle it?-We go back to the shop from the shipping +office and pay the money. + +[Page 222] + +9179. How long has that been done?-I suppose for the last four or +five years. + +9180. Before that, you had a settlement at the office, and only got +the balance in cash?-Yes. + +9181. Is there any deduction made now from the cash you receive +at the superintendent's office?-Nothing except the advance of +our first month's wages, and the amount drawn under allotment +tickets. + +9182. But when you give an allotment ticket in the way you have +mentioned, how do you do: do you get your half-pay handed over +to you in cash?-Yes, if it is not drawn. + +9183. Is it sometimes drawn?-No; my half-pay has not been +drawn, so far as I recollect. [Produces four accounts of wages.] + +9184. Who is William Manson, agent for master?-He is Messrs. +Hay's clerk. + +9185. The only deduction here is for stores in the ship, and your +advance, and the fees?-That is all. + +9186. Then in that year, 1870, you got the balance of £16, 3s. 6d. +paid to you?-Yes. + +9187. What was the amount of your account at Hay & Co.'s?-I +don't remember in that year. + +9188. Here [showing] is your account for 1871 when you had a +balance of £19, 2s. to receive: do you remember the amount of +your account, that year?-I do not. + +9189. How much ready cash did you bring home with you when +you had settled on 25th July?-I am not quite sure, but I think it +was about £16. + +9190. Then your account for the season would only be about £3?- +That was all. + +9191. Would that be the whole of the supplies you got for your +family that year?-Yes; it was short voyage. + +9192. Had you also a short and a very successful voyage last +year?-Yes. + +9193. You have not got your final payment of oil-money for +1871?-No. + +9194. Have you got it for 1870?-Yes. + +9195. Was that settled for before the superintendent, Mr. +Gatherer?-Yes, it was paid at the custom-house. I think I got +an account of wages for that too, but I could not say exactly. +The oil on which the money was paid was 42 tons. The first +payment of oil-money was upon 150 tons, making 192 altogether. + +9196. Was the whole of that paid at the custom house?-Yes. + +9197. Are you quite sure about that?-I am sure enough. + +9198. And are you sure you got an account of the second payment +of oil-money, although you have not got it now?-I am not sure +about that. I think I got an account of wages for that too but I +cannot say. + +9199. How did you manage to keep the accounts of wages you +have produced, when you did not keep the account for the last +payment of oil-money?-Because I got these accounts of wages +when I was going home, but at the time when I got the account for +the last payment I was going away. + +9200. Is your last payment of oil-money generally made to you +when you are shipping in the following year?-I never get it until +I am going away next year, and therefore it is easy to see how I +may have lost the papers which I got then. + +9201. Have you any accounts running with Messrs. Hay between +the end of one whaling voyage and the beginning of another?- +Very often I have. If I require anything I send to Messrs. Hay for +it, or to any other man in Lerwick. + +9202. Do you also get advances of cash from them when you want +them?-Yes. + +9203. Do you generally settle with Messrs. Hay at the time when +you are engaged for the next year's voyage?-No. I settle with +them at the time when I get paid. + +9204. But you don't get your second payment of oil-money until +you are going away for a new voyage?-I get it whenever it +comes; but I told you that last year I did not get it until I was +going away. + +9205. Did that never happen before?-It has happened before. + +9206. You have produced a receipt granted by you to Mr. Leask +for £1, 5s. 3d. in 1867: how does that receipt happen to be in your +possession?-That was a short voyage, only six weeks, in the +'Polynia' of Dundee and there were no half-pay tickets. I got an +advance from him, and when I paid the money again at the end of +the voyage the receipt was handed back to me. + +9207. Was that advance given to you in cash?-No, I got my first +month's advance in cash, and then I got that advance in goods. + +9208. Was that for your own outfit, or for your family?-I think it +was for my own outfit. + +9209. Have you got payments of that kind frequently from the +agents who have engaged you?-No; that was the only one. + +9210. Did you get your first month's advance in addition to this?- +Yes. + +9211. Did you get it in cash or in goods?-I got it in a line to be +cashed a day or two after we sailed. I gave the line to Mr. Leask's +man, and got the principal part of it in money. Then they drew the +money from the shipowner after I left. + +9212. You took your first month's advance partly in money and +partly in goods?-Yes, I think that was the way of it. + +9213. And you got £1, 5s. 3d. in goods in addition to that?-Yes. + +9214. Why did you want that amount of goods?-I have wanted +three times that amount, according to circumstances. For one +voyage I would require that amount, if I had not a good stock. + +9215. Why did you not get the whole of your first month's advance +in goods when you say you were requiring them?-Perhaps I was +requiring money for some other purpose. I had perhaps to send +part of it home. + +9216. Why did you not take the whole of your month's advance in +goods, and then get that advance in cash?-Perhaps I got more +than that in cash. That advance was only 25s., and I had £2, 10s. +per month. + +9217. Did you get the whole payment of your wages for that +voyage before you left?-Yes, except the second payment of +oil-money. That second payment is made after the oil is boiled. +There is a calculation made when we come home with regard to +the whole amount of oil that is in the ship, and when we arrive +we are paid a proportion of that. Then, when the oil is boiled; +they see what it actually amounts to and we are paid the balance +of our oil-money. + +9218. Then on this voyage in 1867, which you made for Mr. +Leask, you were advanced at sailing the whole amount of your +wages and the first payment your oil-money?-Yes. + +9219. And all that you had to get afterwards was your last payment +of oil-money?-Yes. + +9220. You got the whole of the amount in cash or goods?-Yes. + +9221. But mostly in goods?-I could not say that it was mostly in +goods, because, except the £1, 5s. 3d. and perhaps 10s. of my first +month's advance I do not think I got more goods from them. I am +not sure; about that; but I cannot say that I got more. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined. + +9222. You hold some land now from Mr. M'Queen at Burravoe?- +Yes. + +9223. Do you fish for Mr. Henderson?-No; I fish for Mr. Adie at +the Out Skerries. + +9224. Were you formerly a tenant on the Lunna estate?-Yes. I +left it seven years ago because Sheriff Bell's tenantry there were +handed over to Mr. Robertson, and were bound to fish for him. He +and I had disputed at one time, and I was not very well satisfied +about fishing for him. I was paying my land rent to the Sheriff, +and I thought that when a man was [Page 223] paying his land rent +he ought to have freedom to fish to the best advantage for himself +that he could. + +9225. Where did you engage to fish that season?-At the Skerries, +to Mr. Adie. + +9226. You thought you could make a better thing of it by fishing +for Mr. Adie, and you went to him?-Yes. + +9227. What happened in consequence of that?-Nothing +happened, except that I must either be bound to fish for Mr. +Robertson or leave the property. + +9228. Were you told that you must leave the property?-Yes; the +Sheriff himself told me that. + +9229. Was Mr. Robertson his factor or his tacksman?-His +tacksman. + +9230. To whom did you pay your rent at Lunna?-To Mr. +Robertson when he came to be tacksman, but the Sheriff +before that. + +9231. Who first told you that you were to leave your ground at +Lunna?-The Sheriff himself. + +9232. When was that?-The year before I left. That was nine +years ago. + +9233. Was that when you had first engaged with Mr. Adie?-No. +I fished for two years for Mr. Robertson after that, after I removed +to Yell. + +9234. Then why did you leave Lunna? I thought you told me it +was because you engaged with Mr. Adie that you were turned out +of your ground there?-No; it was not because I engaged with Mr. +Adie. It was because I would not fish for Mr. Robertson. + +9235. Why did you fish for Mr. Robertson for two years after that, +although you were not bound?-We were fishing then at our own +freedom. + +9236. Were you asked to sign any obligation to fish for Mr. +Robertson?-No. + +9237. How did you intimate that you were not going to be bound +to fish for him? Had you a conversation with Mr. Bell on the +subject?-Yes. At the time when Mr. Bell's tenants were handed +over to Mr. Robertson, I was in the merchant service; but they +made a statement then that the tenants were to be bound to fish for +him. + +9238. Who made the statement?-Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson +made it after I came home. For the last ten years I have been at +the ling fishing. The first winter I came home I caught some cod, +small and big, and I salted them, and went down to Lerwick and +sold them to Messrs. Hay. Mr. Robertson got word of that, and +got an account from Messrs. Hay of the cod that I had sold. He +handed that to the Sheriff, who came to Lunnasting; and I was +called up and found fault with for not selling the fish to Mr. +Robertson as tacksman. He asked me my reason for that; and I + said that I had signed no agreement to fish for him; that I was due +him nothing; and that I did not see why I could not sell my fish to +any man I liked. Bell said very little to that; but he gave me to +understand that after that I was either to leave the property, or to +pay £1 of a fine if I sold my fish to any other person. + +9239. Was that a written notice?-Yes. + +9240. Have you got it now?-No, I have lost it. + +9241. Did you pay the fine?-Yes. + +9242. Did you not try to get off with it?-No. + +9243. Did you think you were legally bound to pay it?-No; and +that was the reason why I would not stay upon his property. If I +could have got a 'downsitting' handy that suited me at the time, I +would not have paid it, because I did not think it right. + +9244. Did you fish for Mr. Robertson after that?-Yes, for two +years. + +9245. How did you happen to fish for him?-We just made a kind +of agreement with him, first for two years; but still we were not +satisfied, and as we did not wish to be bound to fish for him, we +stopped. + +9246. Did anything more pass between you and Mr. Robertson or +Mr. Bell, about leaving the ground or about being bound to fish?- +No. + +9247. Then how did you come at last to leave Lunna? Did you +give them notice that you were going, or did they give you notice +to quit?-I was on the look-out after that for some other place, +because I was determined, after paying that £1, which I was not +due to shift to a convenient place at the first opportunity. + +9248. You got a place at Burravoe; and since then have you been +at liberty to fish for any person you pleased?-Yes. + +9249. Do you get your supplies at Mr. Adie's store at Skerries?- +Yes; our sea stock, and all that we require during the fishing +season + +9250. When you are at home, where do you get your supplies?- +Sometimes from Lerwick, and sometimes we get something from +Mr. Adie when we settle. + +9251. Do you bring home supplies with you from Skerries?-No, +we never settle at Skerries; we settle at Voe in Mr. Adie's office. + +9252. Have you an account at Voe as well as at Skerries?-Yes. +Our Skerries account for the fishing season is always handed over +to Voe, and it is all settled there. + +9253. Do you sometimes bring a large supply of provisions home +from Voe?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. When we think we +can make a better of it, we will send to Lerwick for them. + +9254. Have you not to bring them a good bit by land when you get +them from Voe?-Yes. + +9255. Why do you take the trouble to carry your supplies so far as +that?-We have no particular reason for it, only we are there at +any rate, and we can get them there as good a bargain as we can +get them in Lerwick and nearer us, and it saves us the freight. + +9256. How often do you go to Voe in the course the year?-Once +a year. + +9257. When you go there to settle, are you asked to take some +goods home with you?-Not at all, unless we require them +ourselves. + +9258. Of course you are not obliged to do it unless you like; but +don't they ask you whether you want any goods?-Yes, they will +do that. Sometimes Mr. Adie's shop people will ask if we are +requiring anything. + +9259. Is that before you settle or afterwards?-It is generally after +we have settled. + +9260. Does that supply go into the next year's account?-If we are +requiring the cash we have got, either for paying the land-master +or any other purpose, they will let the goods stand until next +account. + +9261. But sometimes you got goods before settlement, and they +went into the past year's account if you did not want the cash?- +No. Since we fished for Mr. Adie, there were no goods we got at +that time which went into the past year's account. They always +went into the rising year's account, unless they were paid for in +cash. + +9262. Sometimes you paid them in cash?-Yes. + +9263. And in that case they would not enter any account?-No. I +generally pay all my goods with cash, so far as I can. + +9264. Do you find them cheaper when they are paid for in that +way?-Yes. + +9265. And that is what you do generally when you go to +Lerwick?-Yes. + +9266. Have you generally had a balance to get from Mr. Adie at +the end of the year since you fished for him?-Yes, always. + +9267. Could you get the same goods that you get at Voe as cheap +nearer home, and as good?-I cannot say. + +9268. Is there any difference in quality between Mr. Adie's goods +and those you get at Burravoe or at Lerwick?-I cannot say that +there is. There is often a great difference in the quality of goods, +even although they are sold at one price, and as being the same +quality. + +9269. Where have you found that?-I have bought tea on different +occasions at one place, and at the same price, and have found +differences in the quality. I don't think that was due so much to +the people selling it, as to the chest decaying. I have sometimes +found it good and sometimes bad in every place I have had it from. + +9270. Do you take goods from Mr. Henderson's shop at +Burravoe?-I have had very few goods from him. I never had +any meal or tea from him. All I have got has been a few nails or +anything I required for my boats. + +[Page 224] + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ARTHUR ANDERSON, examined. + +9271. You are a fisherman at Burravoe, on Mr. M'Queen's +property?-I am. + +9272. Were you formerly a tenant and fisherman at Lunna?-Yes. +I was not very long a tenant, but I was a fisherman. I left it 7 years +ago at Martinmas, at the same time as Johnston. + +9273. Had you been bound there to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I did +fish for him; but while I was a young man, and unmarried, they +could not compel me. + +9274. Had you some land there afterwards?-Yes. I had some for +two years before I left. + +9275. Were you told then that you were bound to fish for Mr. +Robertson?-Yes. The Sheriff told me that at the same time that +he told Johnston. + +9276. Were you both together at the time?-No. + +9277. Had you both been sent for at the same time?-There was +a meeting in a place near Lunna, and the whole tenantry were +told that they were to be under one control, and to fish for Mr. +Robertson. I think that meeting was held in the schoolroom. I +think both Sheriff Bell and Mr. Robertson were present. + +9278. Did Mr. Bell tell you that he expected you all to fish for Mr. +Robertson?-Yes. + +9279. What else did he say?-I was not very old then, and I don't +remember. + +9280. Why did you leave Lunna?-I was in a double family, and +I thought the place I was in was too small for the whole of us; +therefore I thought I would try to look out for some place in which +to live. + +9281. You did not leave it because you wanted your freedom?- +Not altogether. + +9282. Had you been fined for selling your fish anywhere else?- +No. + +9283. Do you know any other man in Lunna who was fined for that +except Johnston?-I don't remember of any. + +9284. Who do you fish for now?-For Mr. Adie, the same as +Johnston does. + +9285. Do you deal in the same way as he described?-Yes. + +9286. How do you get your supplies, for your family?-Sometimes +Mr. Adie will send us meal for our families from Aberdeen or +from Leith, and we will pay the freight. It is not easy for him to +send it to us from his place at Voe, but he will send it from these +other places if we ask him. + +9287. Do these supplies go to your account?-Yes. + +9288. Do you ever get supplies anywhere else?-Sometimes in +Skerries, where we fish. + +9289. These go into the same account, and are settled for at +Voe?-Yes. + +9290. Do you bring goods from Voe at settling time when you +want them?-We always bring something. + +9291. Are you asked if you want goods when you go there to +settle?-Yes; they will ask us if we desire anything. + +9292. But you need not take them unless you like?-No. + +9293. Do you get any goods at Burravoe?-Not very much. We +don't run very large accounts there. + +9294. Mr. Henderson's shop is not very far from where you +live?-It is not very far. + +9295. Would it not be handier for you to get your goods there?- +We don't run very large accounts with him. I might get my goods +from him if I was fishing for him, but when I am not putting any +fish or any produce his way I don't ask anything. + +9296. Could you not get the money for your fish, and buy your +goods where it was most convenient for you?-We might. + +9297. Did you never think of doing that?-No. + +9298. Why?-I don't know. + +9299. Do you think Mr. Henderson will charge higher prices from +those who do not fish for him?-I cannot say. + +9300. You never were afraid of that?-No. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT ROBERTSON, examined. + +9301. You are a fisherman and tenant at Hamnavoe on Mr. +M'Queen's property?-I am. + +9302. You are an elder of the Established Church in South Yell +parish?-Yes. + +9303. How long have you been at Hamnavoe?-All my life. I am +56 years of age, and I was born on the property. + +9304. Were you formerly bound to fish to the tacksman on the +property?-No; I have had liberty all my time to fish for any one +I liked, except for three years, when my landlord, the late Mr. +Robert Bruce, required us to fish for him. He succeeded to the +property about 1853, and it was in 1857 or 1858 that he required +our services. + +9305. You have been a skipper for a number of years?-For two +years, but not for the last two years. I was two years at the whale +fishing in 1868 and 1869. In 1868 I engaged with Messrs. Hay, +and in 1869 I engaged with Mr. George Reid Tait. I got my first +month's advance laid down at the custom-house, and when I came +back I got the rest at the custom-house. If I was due a small thing +to the agent I went to him and paid it. + +9306. Did you get an outfit?-Only a small thing. I had some +things myself, and it was only a few things that I required from +the agents. Anything that I required for my family I got from +Robertson & Co. I have had an account with them for a long +time. I have had as much as £7, 3s. from them in a year. + +9307. Why did you deal with them?-I found them to be good +men. They always try to advance people as far as they can, and +especially people who strive to pay them back again. + +9308. Have you ever fished in the ling fishing?-Yes; I have been +there for the last two years. The year before last I fished for Mr. +Henderson, Burravoe, and last year I fished for William Jack +Williamson at Ulsta. + +9309. Did you run accounts with them?-Very little. + +9310. Was that because you dealt with R. & C. Robertson?-Yes. + +9311. Do most of the men deal with the merchants they fish for?- +They do, because they have no money of their own, and they +require their fishing to pay for what they get. + +9312. Do they get their out-takes on credit?-Yes, until the fishing +is done, and then they clear it off. I had no dealings with these two +merchants except for my living in the summer time-meal and tea +and sugar. + +9313. Were these for your company account?-Yes. + +9314. Do you think you get your supplies cheaper from R. & C. +Robertson than you would get them from the merchants you fish +for?-I think so. + +9315. And better, or at least as good?-Yes. If I send to Messrs. +Robertson for a sack of meal, I get it at the Lerwick price, with the +addition of the freight, but when the meal comes to a merchant in +the North Isles, he has to take a little profit on it besides. + +9316. Are any of the merchants here supplied with their meal from +R. & C. Robertson?-I cannot say. + +9317. Because if they are not they might possibly get their +supplies from the south, and land them here cheap as Messrs. +Robertson can land them at Lerwick?-They might. I believe +Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, fetches his meal from the south +occasionally. + +9318. And as easily as the Robertsons can fetch it to Lerwick?- +Yes; he has just the freight between Lerwick and Burravoe to pay. + +9319. But he might bring it by a sailing vessel from Aberdeen?- +He might, but it always comes by the steamer. + +9320. Do you know as a fact that the price at Lerwick is less than +the price you would be charged meal at Burravoe?-It is a little +less. + +9321. Do you also find that the quality of the meal better there?- +It is sometimes as good in Lerwick at a price of 2s., or 2s. 6d., or +3s. cheaper at Burravoe than it is in the North Isles. I have bought +flour lately from [Page 225] Messrs. Robertson at 16s. or 18s. a +boll, and have bought it as low as 14s. 6d. + +9322. Have you bought any meal during the last year?-No; I did +not require it. + +9323. But before that you found a difference of 2s. on the flour, +and 3s. or 4s. on the sack of meal?-Yes. + +9324. Have you bought provisions or supplies from Mr. +Henderson, Burravoe, lately?-Not for a long time. Perhaps +I might buy a 1/4 lb. of tea or something like that, if I was at his +door; but I paid for it then, and there was no account. + +9325. You say you have been quite free to fish for any one you +pleased except during three years: did Mr. M'Queen ever forbid +you to fish for Mr. Henderson?-Once. I think that was about +three years ago; but he (Mr. M'Queen) came to see that that would +not do and it was never more spoken of. + +9326. Did you fish that year for Mr. Henderson?-No. I went to +Greenland; but in the following year I fished for him. + +9327. Did you go to Greenland because Mr. M'Queen asked you to +do so?-It was almost because of him telling me not to fish for +Mr. Henderson. + +9328. But you did not like to be interfered with?-No. If I paid +my rent to my landlord at the end of the season, I liked to be at +liberty to go where I pleased. With regard to the winter fishing, +it does not matter much, because they will pay ready money for it +whenever we bring in the fish. + +9329. Don't you think it would be better if the people here were +paid ready money for everything, instead of running such long +accounts, and settling only once year?-It might, but I don't know +how things would go then. If we were to pay ready money for +everything that we got from the merchants, it might not come to +answer very well. + +9330. Why is that?-Because if I were taking anything to a +merchant to sell, such as hosiery, and asking ready money for it, +I would not get so much as if I were to let the price lie in his +hands for some time. + +9331. But don't you think the merchant would sell his goods +cheaper to you if you were paying him in ready money?-I +believe he would do that. + +9332. Don't you think the people would manage their affairs better +if they had the money in their own hands?-I think so; because if a +man does a day's work, and is not paid for it until the end of five +or six months, he is not likely to do so well with it as if the money +was paid down to him at once and he could go where he liked with +it, to make the best bargain for himself in buying things. + +9333. Is it not a great trouble to keep in mind all the things that +you have got to your credit-a day's work now, and your fish +again, and a beast, perhaps which you have sold, and then to +recollect all the outtakes you have had besides?-Yes. I have +sold few beasts now for several years, but I always got the money +paid down to me on the day when I sold them. + +9334. You think that is handier than getting them put down into an +account?-Yes. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK POLE, examined. + +9335. Are you a partner of the firm of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I +am not a partner. + +9336. Are you the manager at Greenbank?-Yes. + +9337. You were cited to bring some books?-I was and I have +brought the only book which can give any information as to our +intromissions with fishermen. Our principal books are kept at +Mossbank, because that is the head-quarters of the firm. + +9338. What books do you keep at Greenbank?-We only keep a +ledger into which the account of each fisherman who has one is +entered. + +9339. Are there some fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank +who do not open accounts?-I don't know if there are any; there +may be one or two. + +9340. In that account at Greenbank do you enter on the one side all +the out-takes of the fishermen, and on the other the sums which +are due to them for fish or any other matters?-No. The ledger I +have with me shows merely the shop accounts of the fishermen. +The ledger you refer to is kept at Mossbank. + +9341. Are all the balances made at Mossbank?-Yes. + +9342. Do the men go there for settlement?-No, they settle at +Greenbank; but my brother settles with them, and he brings the +book over with him and takes it back with him when he goes to +Mossbank again. + +9343. What quantity of fish did you sell from Greenbank last +year?-About 54 tons of dry fish. + +9344. What number of boats had you engaged to produce that +quantity?-We had 14 boats altogether. One boat had three men +fishing in it, another had four, and the rest had six apiece. + +9345. Then the only book you have at Greenbank the ledger +containing the accounts for shop goods furnished to your men?- +That is the only book we keep there. + +9346. Is there a woman's book besides?-No; we don't keep a +woman's book at Greenbank. + +9347. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes, we do; and we enter it in the +kelp-book by itself. + +9348. Is not that a sort of woman's book?-No. + +9349. Is it not women mostly whom you employ at that?-It is +women mostly, indeed altogether, who are employed in making +the kelp at Greenbank. + +9350. What quantity of kelp did you sell last year?-I think only +about nine tons. + +9351. What price do you allow to women for kelp?-We have two +prices for kelp: 4s. in goods, and 3s. 6d. in cash. + +9352. Is that a lower price than on the mainland?-I am not aware +that it is, but I cannot speak as to that. + +9353. Then, of course, you have a fish-book?-It is kept at +Mossbank. + +9354. How do your factors mark down the fish at landing?-There +is a book kept at Gloup, which is the station in summer, and the +factor marks the fish there. Then, as soon as the season is over, +the amount is added up and sent to Mossbank to be entered in the +fish-book. + +9355. It is merely the amount of fish that is added up in the book +at Gloup?-Yes. + +9356. And the balance is made in a separate book at Mossbank?- +Yes; in a ledger by itself, which is kept there. + +9357. In that book the total goods supplied at Greenbank are +entered in a slump sum?-Yes. The fishermen keep their shop +account in one part of our business premises, and their slump +account, as it were, in another part. + +9358. That is to say, that at Greenbank they check their shop +account?-Yes. + +9359. Do they come to check it generally themselves, or do they +have pass-books?-Some of them get pass-books, and others do +not. + +9360. If they have no pass-book, how do they check it?-I suppose +they check it from their own memory. + +9361. Do they come for that purpose before settling time?-No; +they generally come about settling time. + +9362. Do they not settle at Mossbank?-No; we settle with all our +Greenbank fishermen at Greenbank. + +9363. Are your books brought from Mossbank for that purpose?- +Yes. As I said before, the principal of our business brings them +along with him when he comes to settle with the men, and he takes +them back with him when he goes back. + +9364. Is it at that time that the totals of the shop accounts at +Greenbank are entered into the principal ledger?-Yes; and the +fisherman gets a note of the amount of his account from me. He +settles with me for that, and takes the note in to my brother, who +settles the whole account. + +9365. Have you also a day-book at Greenbank?-Yes. + +[Page 226] + +9366. Is that for cash transactions, or do the whole of your +transactions first pass into it before being carried into the +ledger?-Almost all our transactions pass through it. + +9367. What transactions do not pass through it?-If I happened to +be posting my ledger at the time when a person was getting +anything to be marked down, I might mark it straight into the +ledger without putting it through the day-book, in order to save +the trouble of posting. + +9368. Do most of the fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank +and Gloup reside within a short distance of these places?-No; +they are scattered over the parish of North Yell, and a few of them +are in this parish. + +9369. Your brother, when examined at Brae, mentioned the +properties which belonged to the members of the firm, and of +which he was tacksman, but I forget whether he mentioned if +there were any properties of which members of the firm are +tacksmen: are there any such?-My brother is tacksman of Mr. +Walker's property in North Yell, and Pole, Hoseason, Co. are +factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell, also. I think +the number of tenants on Mr. Walker's estate might be fourteen, +and the number on George Hoseason's may be nine or ten. + +9370. Are these men bound to fish to you by the terms on which +they hold their land?-They are not bound by any written or +special engagement, but it is understood that they will fish to us, +and most of them do so. + +9371. Are they bound to fish for you in the Faroe fishing?-No; +we have no Faroe fishing in connection with Greenbank at all. + +9372. But you have at Mossbank?-Yes. + +9373. If one of these men were to go to the Faroe fishing, would +you consider yourself entitled to the first offer of his services in +one of your smacks?-We would. + +9374. Then there is an understanding to that effect?-It is +understood that these men will fish to us if we require them. + +9375. In point of fact, do any men on these properties in North +Yell engage for the Faroe fishing with any other merchants?- +There are very few, if who go from North Yell to the Faroe fishing +now. It is principally young men who go there. I cannot at this +moment recollect any one who goes to Faroe from the north +district. + +9376. The day-book and ledger and fish-book are, I understand, +the only books which are used at Greenbank and Gloup?-At +Gloup we have a sort of wastebook, in which any goods are +entered which are bought by anybody during the season when +we have goods there. + +9377. But that is merely for the purpose of being carried into the +permanent ledger at Greenbank or at Mossbank?-At Greenbank. +These accounts, of course, are settled for at Gloup before the men +leave there. + +9378. Are these company accounts?-Some are company accounts +and some are private accounts. + +9379. Can a man have his private supplies at Gloup while he is +residing there as well as his company supplies?-Yes. + +9380. Have you a publican's licence for the premises at +Greenbank?-No; we have a certificate for getting a licence if +we wish to take it out, but we have not taken it out for years. I +don't care for selling liquor, and therefore I do not take it out. + +9381. How do the men get supplies of that kind: is there a +public-house in the district?-No. + +9382. Therefore they must buy in a stock of spirits when they want +them?-I suppose so; but they very temperate class altogether. I +don't think they use much liquor. + +9383. Do they not require it at the station and when they are going +to fish?-At the station we allowed to keep a small quantity of +liquor, with which to supply our fishermen during the season. + +9384. Is that under the Excise regulations?-I understand it is. It +is my brother who takes charge of these matters; but I understand +the Excise permit us to have a small quantity, for the purpose of +supplying our fishermen only. + +9385. Are your supplies of provisions and soft goods at Greenbank +furnished from Mossbank, or do you get them direct from the +wholesale merchants?-Generally we get them direct from the +wholesale merchants. + +9386. Are they landed in Yell?-Yes. + +9387. But I suppose they are invoiced to the firm at Mossbank?- +Yes. + +9388. From whom do you get your principal supplies of meal and +flour?-I should prefer to give the names privately. [Writes the +names of two firms.] + +9389. I see in your ledger the account of Lawrence Danielson, +Houlland: is that a fisherman?-Yes. + +9390. I observe that cash is sometimes entered in his account: does +he come to you when he wants a small advance of cash for any +immediate need?-Yes. + +9391. Are applications of that kind common, or does a man +generally get on without cash until settlement?-Occasionally a +man may require a little advance in cash, but, as a general rule, +any cash which we give out is at the time when the fishermen +settle. After man has settled his account, he perhaps does not +have as much money as he requires, and he may wish small +advance, and it is generally given to him. He may also get a trifle +occasionally at other times in the season, but it is generally about +that time that the bulk of advances in cash are made. + +9392. Do you square off your accounts in the ledger after +settlement?-No; before the settlement. + +9393. Then the entry here on November 27th, 'By Mossbank +ledger, so much,' means what?-It means that the account there +was transferred to the Mossbank ledger. + +9394. And that indicates the amount which the man was entitled to +receive in cash, unless there was something standing against him +in the Mossbank ledger as well?-Certainly; there might be a +balance against him there. + +9395. 'By amount of Gloup account, £1, 13s: 11d.:' was that +entirely for his supplies at Gloup during the fishing season?-That +was for the amount of his private account at Gloup; and that +account, as I have said, is settled between him and our factor at +Gloup, and is entered here. + +9396. I see entries of meal, 1s. 5d. and 5s. 8d.: what quantity of +meal would that be which is charged 5s. 8d.?-It would be a +lispund, or four pecks. + +9397. What is the quantity charged 1s. 5d.?-One peck, or eight +lbs. + +9398. Was that the selling price of your meal last summer?-Yes, +by the peck. + +9399. Do you charge less when a larger quantity is taken?-Yes; +we charge sometimes 1s. or 1s. 3d. and sometimes as much as 2s. +less per boll. The price per boll would be somewhere about 25s. +or 26s. when the lispund was at 5s. 8d. + +9400. What did you sell meal at per boll last summer?-It is very +rarely that I sell bolls at Greenbank. Generally when a quantity of +that kind is required, we order it direct from the south, and it is +charged to the men at Mossbank. + +9401. Do you purchase hosiery at Greenbank?-We do very little +in that way. + +9402. I see one woman credited in the ledger with shawl: is that an +exceptional transaction?-Yes, most exceptional transaction. We +used to do a good deal in hosiery, but we found it was a very bad +speculation, and so we gave it up. We were losing money by it +every year: we would have been in the debtors' prison, I suppose, +if we had continued to go on with that trade. + +9403. Are the women's accounts for kelp kept in the same +book?-Yes; if a woman is to be credited with kelp it is entered +there. + +9404. Do you purchase wool?-No; but we have some sheep: at +least I had the management of some sheep this season, and I sold +the wool for behoof of the party who owned the sheep. + +[Page 227] + +9405. When you employ people to work for you, are they paid at +the time, or at the settlement?-We sometimes pay them at the +time, and sometimes at settlement. + +9406. Are people employed in curing fish always paid at +settlement?-Not wholly. We have a class of hands who are +paid by beach fees, and another class whom we employ as day +labourers, and we pay these either daily, weekly, or monthly, or +whenever they like. + +9407. Or at settlement, if they have an account?-Not necessarily. +Some of them may have an account, and yet be paid daily. + +9408. I see in the ledger that one woman is credited on July 1st, +'By work in full, 7s. 7d.,' and the account is made up: that work, I +suppose, only went into the account. What kind of work would it +be?-It was dressing worsted. + +9409. Then, on January 14, there is, 'By work, 3s. 2d.:' was that +dressing worsted also?-So far as I recollect, it was. + +9410. I see here a special entry, 'By dressing, 3s. 9d?'-That is the +same thing only differently expressed. That woman dresses any +little worsted we may buy. + +9411. Was that hosiery goods?-No; it was the worsted itself, the +yarn. + +9412. Do you buy the yarn ready made, or do you give the wool +out to be spun?-We buy it ready spun and dress it, and send it +south. + +9413. You don't get it made up?-We do not. + +9414. But the dressing here is paid for on the same principle +of accounting which you adopt in your transactions with the +fishermen?-Just in the same way. + +9415. And you just settle for it at the end of the year?-Not at +the end of the year; just whenever the woman likes. + +9416. I see that this balance has been made at March 31, and +another balance is made in April, and another in July?-Yes. + +9417. Are the sales of fish transacted by you at Greenbank, or +through the firm at Mossbank?-Through the firm at Mossbank +entirely. + +9418. Are you generally acquainted with the transactions in that +department?-No. I may happen to know occasionally about +some things; but I don't know particularly, as a general rule. + +9419. Do you know the price at which the fish were sold last +year?-I have an idea about what it was, but I could not say the +exact figure. + +9420. Do you know to whom they were sold? Were any of them +sent to Spain?-I am not aware that any were sent to Spain. I +don't think there were any sent abroad at all. I think they were all +sold in Scotland and Shetland. + +9421. Who buys from you in Shetland?-Mr. Joseph Leask at +Lerwick; he is a very large fishbuyer. + +9422. Why do you not sell your fish direct to the south?-I +suppose we find it to be an advantage to sell to him. The +Greenbank fish were all sold to him last year, and I believe +some were sold from Mossbank too, but I could not say the +exact amount. + +9423. Can you explain how the current price of the season is +ascertained, according to which you settle with your fishermen?- +I cannot explain it exactly; but I believe some of the curers may +correspond with one another about what they consider to be a fair +price. + +9424. Did you sell last year at the same price as your neighbours, +Spence & Co.?-I don't know. + +9425. If there is a difference in the price obtained by two or three +neighbouring firms for their fish, do you strike an average in order +to deal with your fishermen, or how is it that the fishermen are +settled with?-I am not aware that there is any average struck. I +think, as a general rule, the fishermen are paid to the full extent of +the highest price realized by the large curers. + +9426. Suppose you were selling 10s. or £1 a ton cheaper than your +nearest neighbours, in consequence perhaps of having to sell +earlier, or when the market was in a depressed state?-Such it +thing occurs sometimes. + +9427. Would you in that case settle with your fishermen according +to the price obtained by the other party?-Certainly. + +9428. Is that an invariable rule?-In my experience it has been the +rule. + +9429. Is that because the fishermen are sure to find out who got +the highest price and would be dissatisfied, or is it part of the +understanding that it is the highest current price according to +which they are to be paid?-I believe the fishermen generally +understand that they are to be paid according to the highest price. + +9430. Then if a merchant is specially fortunate and gets a price +much higher than the ordinary prices of the year, does that regulate +the whole prices throughout Shetland so far as the fishermen are +concerned?-I should say not; but I think that is a thing that very +rarely happens. I think the principal curers, so far as I know, get +much about the same price for their fish. There may be a slight +variation here and there, but it small. + +9431. They will get pretty much the same, I fancy, if they sell in +Shetland to one gentleman or two?-Yes; but I am not aware that +they all do that. + +9432. Do you ever sell any fish for exportation to Spain?-I +cannot say that we have ever sold any for that purpose. No +doubt some of the fish we have sold may have gone to Spain +indirectly. + +9433. But you have not sent them there on your own account?- +No. + +9434. I presume the bulk of the transactions at Greenbank are +credit transactions, and enter the ledger?-No. We do a great +deal in cash payments. + +9435. Is that with fishermen?-In some cases with our own +fishermen, and in other cases with other people. We do a +considerable business across the counter for ready money. I +should say that in our shop business we sell as much goods for +cash and butter and eggs, and so forth, as we do for fish. + +9436. Are these cash transactions, as they may be called, speaking +generally, with the same parties, or with different parties from +those whose names appear in the book as having got goods which +are set against their fish?-In some cases they would be with the +same parties, and in other cases with others. For example, it is +generally women that we buy yarn from, and it is very often +women who bring us eggs and butter. + +9437. Do you settle the whole of these transactions at the time?- +Yes, as a general rule. + +9438. But these women may have an account which enters the +women's book?-We keep no women's book. + +9439. Then when a woman does deal with you that way, she settles +her transactions at once?-Generally at once. + +9440. When you sell a quarter lb. of tea, or a lispund of meal, or a +bit of cotton over the counter in a ready money transaction, is the +same price charged as if it were entering the book?-Exactly the +same, in all cases. + +9441. Does it not follow from that that your profit upon the +transactions which enter the book and are settled for at the end +of the year is much less than what you make upon the cash +transactions?-If we were to make no bad debts, it would not +be much less. It would be much the same. + +9442. Would it not be less in this way, that you might turn your +money over twice before these accounts were settled, and you +would either have the interest for the year or you might make +another profit?-True; but the rate of interest is so exceedingly +small at present, that the money is worth scarcely anything at all. + +9443. I suppose it is a consideration in that matter that if you lose +the interest upon the money that is invested in goods, you gain by +the interest upon the money that is not paid to the men until the +end of the season?-There is not much gain there, because we +have often to pay the fishermen their money some months before +we receive it. + +9444. When are your fish sales made?-Towards the end of +September or beginning of October, and they are generally made +on a three months bill. + +9445. That is on a bill payable in January, and the [Page 228] +men are settled with in December?-In the end of November or +1st of December. + +9446. So that the men are paid a month before you receive the +proceeds of your fish sales?-Yes, a month or two. + +9447. In that way, therefore you do not stand upon an equality with +the men in the matter of interest, but on all these credit sales of +goods you are losing interest?-Looking at it in that way, that +would be so. + +9448. I should have thought it not unreasonable that you should +have a discount for these cash payments: why have you not?-I +believe the reason is, that there is a great difficulty in having two +prices for your goods-I mean honestly. + +9449. You think the people would complain?-Not only would the +people complain, but I am afraid your own conscience would cry +out sometimes. + +9450. Why should your conscience cry out if you are really +equalizing the two classes of buyers?-The buyer who does not +pay until November has the advantage of having his money in +hand, and of getting an advance made to him on credit; whereas +the buyer who pays you in March or in April for the same goods +which the other man does not pay for until November, gives you +his money six or eight or ten months sooner, and you have the +advantage of having the money in your pocket, and you could +make of it, as the case may be: is not that so?-Yes. A discount +might be taken off if we could decide upon a certain percentage +to take off for cash; but I believe the reason we have never done +anything in that way is, that if you once begin to make an +alteration, there is a great difficulty in fixing your prices, and a +difficulty in sticking to an exact rate. Perhaps you will allow me +to illustrate what I mean. Suppose I go into a shop and ask for a +cloth jacket, and the jacket is brought down. I am well acquainted +with the price of these goods, but I have plenty of impudence, and +I beat down the price until the seller consents to give me the jacket +at 3s. less than he asked at first. Then my brother, who is a quiet +man, goes in and asks for jacket exactly the same. Perhaps he gets +five per cent. taken off, which would be 1s. 6d., and he pays cash +for it. That would be 1s. 6d. of an advantage to me, and I consider +that it would be unfair and dishonest to him. + +9451. But you get out of that difficulty by raising the price a little +to everybody?-We do not. We just price our goods at what we +consider to be a living profit, and we do not sell them at less than +that to anybody. + +9452. Are not your prices fixed, in the first instance, at such a +figure as you calculate would cover the risk of bad debts upon +your credit transactions, and also the loss of interest upon the +money?-I cannot say that they are. We try to make as few bad +debts as possible, and I cannot say that the prices are fixed with a +view to that at all. + +9453. Are the goods invoiced to you at Greenbank from +Mossbank?-They are all invoiced from Mossbank. + +9454. At the cost price, or at the price at which you are to sell +them?-At the retail price. + +9455. Have you known many cases of fishermen leaving your +employment and going to other merchants?-No; as a general +rule, fishermen continue in our employment for a very long time. +No doubt there exceptions. + +9456. I suppose there is a difficulty sometimes in man changing +because of its disarranging the boat's crew?-In some cases there +is. + +9457. Do you know of any cases in which single men have come +to you from other employers within the last half-dozen years?-I +cannot speak for the last half-dozen years. I can only speak +particularly for two years. + +9458. Within that time have you got many men coming to you +from other merchants?-There have been a few. + +9459. Have these men generally been clear of debt to their former +employers when they came to you?-So far as I know, they have. + +9460. They have not asked you to undertake, their debts, or to +advance them money with which to pay their debts to their former +employers?-No. I have no case of that kind in my mind at +present. + +9461. Does any arrangement exist between you and any other +fish-merchant, to the effect that a man leaving the one merchant +and seeking employment with the other shall have his debt cleared +off by the new employer?-There is no such arrangement between +us and any other employer. + +9462. Do you know of any case in which that has been done?-I +cannot say that I do. Such a thing might have occurred, but there +is no case of that sort which has come within my own knowledge. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, THOMAS WILLIAMSON, examined. + +9463. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Seafield?-I am. I +have been there for a short time. I commenced with the fishing in +1871, and I commenced for myself there as a merchant on 20th +May 1870. + +9464. Where had you been before?-I was shopman for one year +before to the man who had the place previously-Magnus Mouat. + +9465. Before that where had you been?-In 1867 and 1868 I was +in Robert Mouat's shop at Coningsburgh as his shopman, but he +took charge of the shop chiefly himself. I was not quite two years +there. + +9466. I understand the men in that neighbourhood were under +an obligation to fish to Mouat, who was the tacksman of the +property?-I cannot say about that. I did not know anything about +their private matters. + +9467. Do you mean to say that you were shopman to Mouat for +two years and did not know that?-I did not know their private +affairs, whether they were bound or not. I saw the men fishing, +but I could not say whether they were under an obligation to fish +for him more than for any other one. + +9468. Did you not know of any cases in which men were +threatened or ejected for not fishing for him, or for selling their +fish to other merchants?-I was not aware of that at the time I +was there. + +9469. Were the men's accounts with Mouat settled annually in the +same way as they are in other places in Shetland?-Yes, during +the time I was there. + +9470. Had you anything to do with settling these accounts?-No; +he settled with the men himself. + +9471. Did you keep the books in which the goods taken from the +shop were entered?-Yes; the daybook. + +9472. Do you remember anything about the prices charged +there?-They varied, just as they did at other places. + +9473. Were you aware at the time that the prices charged in +Mouat's shop were much higher than those at other places?- +I cannot say that they were higher for a country shop. + +9474. Were they dearer than are charged in this neighbourhood +now?-I cannot say that they were for the groceries; but indeed +they would require to have been dearer, because he had to take his +goods overland at a heavy expense from Lerwick. It was pretty +expensive keeping a horse and cart for that purpose, and taking his +goods down on a winter day. When he did not do that, he had +either to employ a sloop for himself, or a big six-oared boat. + +9475. But you have to do that in many places in Shetland?-They +do that throughout the mainland, in Quendale and other places. + +9476. Did the men about Coningsburgh ever complain to you of +the quality of the goods sold in Mouat's store?-Of course I might +have heard a man complain, just as parties will do when buying +goods. Some customers will always complain. They may perhaps +despise the thing, and yet at the same time they like very well to +take it, but they pretend not to want it in [Page 229] order to get it +a little reduced in price. I don't think the goods were any dearer or +any worse than in most country shops in Shetland, because they +came from the south country, and from the same men from whom +most country merchants in Shetland purchase. + +9477. Did Mouat buy from a merchant in Aberdeen?-He got +most of his soft goods from Mr. D. L. Shirras there. + +9478. Where did he get his meal and flour?-Sometimes from +Macduff in Banffshire, and sometimes from Tod Brothers, +Stockbridge. + +9479. Who was his merchant at Macduff?-I forget; I think it was +Messrs. Laing. He had one cargo from them during the time I was +there. I think Mr. Adie, Voe, had some in the vessel at the same +time. + +9480. Was the cargo landed at Coningsburgh?-Some of it, and +some at other places, just as the party got orders for it. + +9481. Did the cargo belong to Mouat, or was it a joint concern?-I +cannot say. + +9482. Where did he get his flour?-He did not get very much flour +during the time I was there, except for house use. + +9483. Where did he get his tea and groceries?-From Mackintosh +& Co. Glasgow, and from Bremner & Grant, Aberdeen. + +9484. Did you ever know of any of Mouat's men getting money at +the settlement?-Yes; those who had it to get got it, the year I was +there. + +9485. Were they sometimes paid by receipts or lines?-I cannot +say how they were paid. The men, as they came out of the place +where they had been settling, spoke about being paid. + +9486. But you don't know whether they got cash?-No; they might +have got a cheque on the bank. I only saw the entry in the ledger, +of cash being paid in full. + +9487. Your department was merely to sell in the shop?-Yes; and +I was oftener travelling. I travelled a good deal buying up stock +for him. + +9488. Where were your principal purchases of stock made?-In +winter they were chiefly at the Walls Martinmas sale. + +9489. Was that in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh?-No, it +was in the west side of Shetland; but Mouat would perhaps buy a +beast or two in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh as he had +orders for them. + +9490. How were these cattle settled for?-Those that I bought +were paid in money at the time. I cannot tell how he paid for those +he bought himself. + +9491. Were these cattle sent out of the country?-Some of them +were, and others were re-sold in the country. + +9492. Do you really think that upon the whole the stock of goods +in Mouat's shop was as fair in quality as is usual in Shetland?-I +could not say any other. The goods might have been lying for +some time, and I could not tell what strength was in them, but they +looked very well. They just looked like any goods that you would +see brought into a country shop. + +9493. I understand you have taken Mrs. Budge's premises at +Seafield for curing and salting your fish?-Yes. Of course we +had an understanding when we took them, that we were to have +the men on equal terms with what they would get from another, +but there was no more agreement about it. There is scarcely any +man who could keep the premises there and carry on business in +them without the privilege of having the men to fish for him. It +would hardly have been fair to have made them fish for me unless +they were as well served as by fishing for another; but I told them +that I did not want any of them to fish for me unless they came +voluntarily. + +9494. Do you mean that the premises are inconveniently situated +for such a business?-Of course. They lie so far inland that we +require to have a push like that. + +9495. And in order to get men to deliver their fish there, it is +necessary that they should be under some sort of obligation?- +We thought that unless the men had something to do at the place, +it would not be worth keeping it. Of course you cannot very easily +force a business there, without a few men that you can depend +upon. + +9496. Do you mean to force a business in the way of fish-curing, +or in the way of selling goods or provisions?-Of course it would +require a man with more capital than I have to force a business so +far inland. + +9497. But which do you mean; the fish-curing business, or the +general business?-I mean the general business. + +9498. I suppose the drapery and provision business depends very +much on the success of the fish-curing business?-Yes. There is +nothing else to depend upon. There are no works or anything like +that in the neighbourhood. + +9499. Do the men who are employed by you in the fishing live +near your shop?-Yes. + +9500. But you say that for fish-curing this is not a very convenient +place, because it is too far inland?-I say it is not convenient for +driving a business, unless you have some means to depend upon in +the fishing or such like. There are not many people round about +who could purchase goods over the counter, so that the business +cannot be carried on in that way. + +9501. But do you suppose that in any part of Shetland a good +business over the counter could be carried on unless there were +fishermen employed by the merchants?-Yes. I know places in +Shetland where they do carry on a good business over the counter +without having fishermen. For instance, they could do so in Unst. + +9502. Don't merchants who try to establish a business find it +exceedingly difficult to get on in the neighbourhood of a large +merchant who has a number of fishermen employed, unless they +have fishermen of their own?-No doubt but then there are some +places a good distance from these large fish-curers where they +could drive a very good business over the counter. Of course they +could not make a large business of it, because there is not a large +business to be done in Shetland. + +9503. But they could make something if they were far enough +away from the large fish-curers?-Yes. + +9504. Still at any place I suppose it is an advantage for a merchant +to be a fish-curer?-I don't know as to that. I cannot say much for +it this year. Last year was my first year at it, and I had two boats. + +9505. Did you not make a good thing of your fishing last year?- +They did very well in the way of fishing, but I lost a good few +lines and I had to pay most in cash. I paid the men cash down, and +when they do not take their goods in return we make very little by +the fish. + +9506. Did the men not run accounts with you as they would do +with another fish-curer?-No doubt some of them did, but some +of them did not. + +9507. Had they all cash to receive at the end of the year?-Yes. + +9508. Was there not one of them who was in debt to you at the +settlement?-Not one. The lowest had about £6 to get. + +9509. Then you would not make so much of them as some +merchants do?-I don't know as to that. I don't expect that I +would make anything. + +9510. Did you not expect to drive a fair business at Seafield?- +Hardly, upon that footing. + +9511. Are you not satisfied with your first year's trial here?- +Sometimes we must be doing, although we are not satisfied with +everything that comes across us. Sometimes we must just endure +it, and hope for better success in another year. + +9512. How do you account for your shop business not being larger +last year?-The men were in pretty good circumstances, and +perhaps they found that they could get their things a little cheaper +in Lerwick, and they ran accounts there. Of course I could not sell +so cheap as they do in Lerwick, because I was buying most of my +goods there. I got part of my goods from the south, and part from +Mr. Leask. + +9513. Did you hear Mr. Laurence Williamson's evidence?-Yes. + +9514. Do you make the same bargain with your fishermen about +boats and lines and other things as he described?-The captain of +the boat got something extra from me. + +[Page 230] + +9515. But did you give as much off the boat hire as a premium to +the men?-No; but of course it came to the same thing. I got £4 +for the boat and lines. Laurence Williamson charged £6, and of +course I charged £6 too, but I gave the lines free to the captain of +the boat, and £1, 6s., which is equal to £2. + +9516. Do any of the men in your experience buy their boats and +lines?-They do in other places but not on this island, so far as I +am aware. + +9517. And that is always a debt against a boat's crew at starting?- +Yes. In Dunrossness the crew buy their boat and lines, and I +believe in Whalsay too. + +9518. Have you engaged your boats for next year?-Of course it +was understood when I bought my new boats last year, that the +men would continue to fish for me; and this year they have not +said anything against continuing to fish. + +9519. Therefore you will have the same two boats' crews of Mrs. +Budge's tenants?-I hope so. + +9520. It was an understanding between you and Mr. Sievwright +when you took the premises that these men were to fish for you?- +Yes. + +9521. Was that understanding put into writing?-No. + +9522. Have you any lease of the premises?-No. I have them +taken from year to year. + +9523. But it was understood in conversation between you and Mr. +Sievwright that the men should fish for you?-Yes, that the men +should fish on the same terms to me as they would to another +person; but still I don't want any of the men who do not come to +me voluntarily. + +9524. Still you had no objection to the landlord bidding them fish +for you?-None whatever. + +9525. Were you aware of the letter being written which has been +produced to-day?-Yes. I did not see it before it was sent, but I +saw it in the hands of the man who produced it. + +9526. Did you know it was to be written?-No. I did not know +whether Mr. Sievwright was to ask them or to write to them. + +9527. But it was quite understood between you and Mr. Sievwright +that there was such an arrangement?-Yes, of course I spoke to +Mr. Sievwright about it. + +9528. And your rent was fixed on that footing?-No; my rent was +fixed before that matter was spoken of. I spoke to Mrs. Budge first +about it, and she advised me to try it, and said she thought the men +would have no objection to fish for me more than to any other +party. + +9529. Had the premises been unlet for some time?-Yes. + +9530. Magnus Mouat had them for two years before you?-Yes. + +9531. Had they been unlet before that?-Yes, they were never let +before. + +9532. Why did Mouat leave?-He did not do very much in the +place. He is in Unst now. + +9533. Would you pay the same rent for your premises if that +understanding did not exist about the men fishing for you?-No, I +would not keep them at all. + +9534. Why?-Because I could have nothing to do in them. I +would have nobody buying anything from me. + +9535. And you would have no men to fish for you?-No. + +9536. Is that because you cannot get free men to fish for you, or is +it because they prefer to fish for the big fish-curers?-When the +men are engaged to the big fish-curers, if I were to go and ask +them to come and fish for me then I would require to give them a +better bargain than they have with the merchants by whom they are +employed now, and if I were to do that it would take away all the +profit I would have on the fish, and I would have to work for +nothing. Therefore I would be as well to want them. + +9537. How do you fix the current price at the end of the year?- +That is a thing I am hardly able to tell. + +9538. How did you manage to ascertain it last year?-My bargain +with the men was to give them the current price of the country, +and accordingly I did so. I ascertained what the big fish-curers +were giving, and I regulated my price by theirs. + +9539. You did not settle until you ascertained what price they were +getting?-No, I settled just at the general time. + +9540. But after you had found out what the large fish-curers were +getting?-Yes. + +9541. Did you sell to Mr. Leask?-Yes. + +9542. Have you any difficulty in getting men employed by the +large fish-curers because they are bound to them too?-No, it +is not exactly that; but I have not so much money as these +fish-curers, and if the men make two or three small fishings, the +curers can help them with money or goods, while I could not +afford to do that. + +9543. You have not the means of carrying them through?-Of +course I have not. Men who have been long in business and who +have plenty of capital can manage to do the thing in different +ways; and small shops like mine need not try to fight against the +great. + +9544. It was only the balances you paid in cash this year?-Yes; +but some of the men had £7 or £8 before settlement time came, +and some had before they went to the fishing at all. + +9545. Then their accounts at the shop would be rather small on the +whole: what would you say was about the average?-They ran +from 5s. to £9. + +9546. Did they get that in goods?-They could take it either in +cash or in goods. When they did not want to take the goods, they +got cash if I had it; and if I did not have it at the time, they had just +to wait until I could make some shift to get it for them. + +9547. Do you buy hosiery?-Very little. If I can get a little good +worsted-yarn, that is all I buy. + +9548. Who do you sell the yarn to?-All I have done in that is a +mere trifle, as I have not been long in the business; but perhaps I +take a parcel to Lerwick, and hawk it through the shops, and get +goods in exchange which I want for my own business. + +9549. Is it understood that you are to take the price out in +goods?-Yes. Of course I may meet with a private individual +who may buy a few good cuts of worsted from me for cash. + +9550. Is the worsted you get generally of good quality?-It is +generally thick worsted, worth 2d. or 3d. a cut. + +9551. That is not the very finest Shetland worsted?-No. There is +some of it as high as 6d. a cut. + +9552. Do the merchants re-sell the worsted at the same price or do +they charge a profit upon it?-I cannot say much about that; only I +know that all that worsted and hosiery is a bad spec. to meddle +with. If it lies any time it gets spoiled, and it is very difficult to get +a market even for the best quality of it in the south. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT GILBERTSON, examined. + +9553. You are a fisherman and tenant at Harra, Mid Yell?-Yes. + +9554. Is that on the Gossaburgh estate?-No, it is on Mr. Hay's +own property. + +9555. Are you free to fish for anybody you like?-I have been so +in time past, and I am so now, so far as I know. + +9556. Have you ever fished for any person except Hay & Co.?- +Yes. I fished five years for Mr. Sandison at Cullivoe, two for Mr. +Henderson, and one for Mr. Williamson at Ulsta. + +9557. Where do you get your supplies?-Generally from the +merchant for whom I am fishing. We don't have means to get +them anywhere else. + +9558. Are you generally a little bit in arrear end of the year?-No; +I always manage to have something over to help to pay the land +rent. + +[Page 231] + +9559. Do you pay your rent to Hay & Co.?-Yes, to the man +whom they send up to make the settlement. They send a man +every year to West Sandwick. + +9560. Are you fishing for them just now?-No; the last one I +fished for was Mr. Williamson. I have made no arrangement +for the present year. + +9561. Where are you getting your supplies for the incoming +year?-We are shifting along the best way we can. We have +some corn and potatoes of our own. + +9562. Is not the time past for making up the boats' crews?-No; +sometimes it is done before now, but sometimes it is as late as the +month of April. + +9563. Are there many men near you who have not made any +arrangement for this year?-There are a good few, principally +those who fished along with me last year. + +9564. Then I suppose you are quite at liberty to go and fish for +anybody you please?-So far as I know, I am. + +9565. Have you no account running anywhere just now?-No. + +9566. Are you not in debt to anybody?-I may be about 1s. or 2s. +in debt at the shop at Linkshouse, but that is all. + +9567. If you engage to fish for Mr. Leask at Ulsta, will you open +an account at his shop at once?-I should like to be as long as +possible in opening an account. + +9568. But I suppose you won't get through the summer without +doing so?-No. Of course I could not get through the summer +without a little supplies. + +9569. Do you think it would be an advantage to you if you could +get your fish paid earlier in the season?-It would be an advantage +in some respects. If I was not fishing for the proprietor, and if +he wanted his rent at Martinmas and I did not settle with the +fishcurer, then the proprietor might come upon me for the rent +before I had money to pay him, and put me to expenses for that. + +9570. Don't the proprietors generally wait for your rent till after +the settlement?-In some cases they do, but not always. + +9571. Have you known cases where they would not wait until after +settlement?-I have not known any but in some cases they would +like to have the money as soon as it is due. + +9572. Have you known any case in which the fishcurer would not +advance money for the rent when the proprietor was needing it?-I +never knew that. + +9573. Does the fish-curer generally advance you money for that +purpose?-Yes, if there is money coming to me at the settlement. + +9574. Have you known a fish-curer giving a line to the proprietor +for the rent?-Yes. I have got an order from one of our curers to +the proprietor himself. I have got an order from Mr. Henderson to +Messrs. Hay, and it was accepted the same as cash. That was last +year; the order was for about £5. It was a stamped order on the +bank. It was only for part of my rent, and I had to shift for the rest +somewhere else. + +9575. Was it a cheque for the whole balance due to you?-Yes. + +9576. Did you get it at settling time?-I got it at the time +when Messrs. Hay settled, but I did not get an account from Mr. +Henderson until after that. + +9577. Then there was more due to you by Mr. Henderson than +that?-A trifle. He took care to keep on the right side. + +9578. Then you think it would not be of much difference to you to +have an earlier payment?-I don't know. It might suit a temperate +man very well who could manage his own affairs; but for the man +who required all his pence, I don't think it would suit very well. + +9579. Don't you think it would be better if you were to be paid so +much, perhaps every week or every month, during the course of +the fishing, and then to be paid the balance according to the actual +price at the end of the season?-I think that would be a very good +plan, so far as I can see. It would keep the men from turning into +debt, and it would enable them to go to the best market; whereas +we who have no money are compelled to take our supplies from +the fish-curer. + +9580. Do you think that is often a loss to you?-I am certain it is, +because his prices must be a little higher in consequence. + +9581. Have you felt that yourself?-I felt it last year. + +9582. Then anything would be an improvement which would +enable you to keep out of debt and deal where you pleased?-Yes; +if we had the means of dealing where we pleased, then we would +be enabled to go to the best market. + +9583. Have you compared the goods you have got from the +merchants for whom you were fishing with those you could get +elsewhere?-Yes. Last summer we were paying 1s. 3d. per peck +for the flour which we were getting from Mr. Williamson at Ulsta, +and there was as good flour in Messrs. Hay's at Feideland at 1s. +1d. + +9584. Have you ever made any other comparison of that kind?- +No. Sometimes when we found the tea or sugar to be bad, we +would try where we could get it best; but we could not run an +account at these places, in case we might not be able to pay it +from our fishing. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, HUGH HUGHSON, examined. + +9585. You are a merchant at Gossaburgh?-Yes. + +9586. Do you cure fish?-A few. + +9587. How many boats had you last year?-I had no boats at all. +I deal altogether in ready money. I pay ready cash for all that is +brought to me, but I only do in that way on a small scale. I have +no bondmen, and I wish for no bondmen. + +9588. Do you pay for the fish as they are delivered?-Yes; cash +down. + +9589. Do you purchase generally from men who are fishing +promiscuously along the coast?-Yes. + +9590. Do you buy from men who are engaged to other +merchants?-No. There are it few small boats that fish along +the shore, and when they come along the shore with their fish +I buy them. + +9591. How do you fix the price of the green fish which you buy +from them?-I fix it from the merchants' price. Supposing I can +get £20 in cash for dry fish, I consider that I can give about 7s. per +cwt. for the same fish green, calculating 21/4 of green to 1 cwt. of +dry. + +9592. Do you think that kind of business might be carried on on a +large scale?-I think it could; and am sure it would be much better +for the men. I have been twelve years in the country, and I have +found that by paying ready money I have got more custom. + +9593. Have you no credit transactions at all?-Yes. I try to oblige +people at times when they want goods. + +9594. But you have no security in the shape of fish which you are +to receive?-No. + +9595. In fact you have no security at all except their honesty?- +No. I now produce my fish-book, which contains entries of the +fish as they are landed, and the prices which I pay for them. + +9596. Do you find that the existence of long credits prevents you +from driving as large a business as you might otherwise do?-The +islands have groaned under the system of long credits for many +years. + +9597. But do you find that it interferes with your driving a larger +business?-I have no command over men, and I do not wish to +have, but I always find that when there is any money going I get +my fair share of it; and I think if every one did the same, they +would get a fair proportion of business. + +9598. If the men could not get credit from the larger fish-curers, do +you think they would be ready to deliver their fish to you for ready +money at the current price?-I think they would. I believe I would +be able to [Page 232] buy £100 worth for every £20 worth I buy +now, if the men could not get supplies on credit elsewhere. + +9599. Do you think the introduction of a cash system of that kind +would greatly injure the men, and make them unable to get +through the winter?-I think the introduction of a cash system +into the islands would not do very well for the poor men, because +they must often have £2 or £3 of supplies from the curers before +they can begin work. What they complain of is, that the merchants +charge them a little as commission upon the money which they pay +for the goods. + +9600. But instead of getting supplies as they do now, they would +be paid for their fish every time they delivered them, and then they +could purchase goods as they pleased with the cash?-Yes; but +there are many men at present who have no means, and who must +come to me and ask me for a few pounds at a time with which to +pay their rents. If I refuse them that assistance they could not carry +through at all. They could not wait until they got money from +their fishing; they would become paupers; and therefore they +require advances. + +9601. Do you buy any fish in winter and spring?-Yes; I buy a +good few in winter when I can get them. + +9602. But not enough to keep a man going with his family?-No. +I made some money in Australia, and that is what keeps me going. + +9603. But the men do not catch enough fish in winter and spring to +keep their wives and families?-No. There are sometimes weeks +when they can get none at all, the weather is often so stormy. + +9604. If you have been in Australia, you know that there are +storms elsewhere as well as here?-In Scotland they fish along +the coast, but they have better boats and there are vessels always +passing, while here there are currents from the Gulf Stream which +would frighten any man. + +9605. You think they have not so good boats here?-They have +not, but they work them wonderfully, and they sometimes frighten +me when I come across them. + +9606. Have you any idea why it is that these men come to you for +credit instead of going to the merchants to whom they sell their +fish?-Of course they cannot all deal in one place. + +9607. But would they not get their credit much easier from the +merchant who is to receive their fish?-They might get it from +him, but perhaps they might have the same reason that the man +had when he was courting; one man might like me whilst others +might not. They might take fancies of that kind. + +9608. Do you sell your goods at a lower price than the large +merchants?-I cannot say I do. I sell as low as I can, and if I +was not selling reasonably low I could not carry on at all. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON examined. + +9609. You are a fisherman at Mid Yell?-Yes. I go to the whaling +and sealing. + +9610. You hold a bit of land here?-Yes. + +9611. Do you also go to the ling fishing?-Yes, when I am at +home any time; but I generally go to the whaling. + +9612. Do you go to Lerwick for an engagement?-Yes. I +generally engage through Messrs. Hay. + +9613. Do you get your month's wages in advance?-Yes; it is paid +down in cash at the Custom House. + +9614. You also get an allotment note?-Yes. I leave it with +Messrs. Hay, and then they supply my family with what they +require. + +9615. Does your wife live at Mid Yell when you are away?-Yes. + +9616. How does she get her supplies from Lerwick?-She sends +an order down to them, and they send her up what she requires by +the steamer. + +9617. Is that the only account you keep?-That the only account I +keep with them; but I keep some accounts with other men. + +9618. Do you keep an account with the merchant for whom you go +to the ling fishing afterwards?-Yes. + +9619. When you come home from Greenland you settle with +Messrs. Hay at the Custom House?-Yes, as soon as I come home. + +9620. You did not use to do that formerly?-No; we always used +to settle in the office. + +9621. When you settled in the office, the amount of your account +was deducted from what you were to get?-Yes; but what money +we had to get was paid down to us in cash. + +9622. But now you get all your money except what you have got in +the ship, and the first month's advance?-Yes. + +9623. And with the balance you walk down to Hay & Co.'s office +and pay off their account?-Yes. + +9624. I suppose you just go down with the clerk who has been +along with you at the Custom House?-Yes. + +9625. Do you always pay off their account on the same day that +you are settled with?-Yes; but it only two years since we began +to be paid in that way. + +9626. Have you been at the whale fishing every year for some time +back?-I have been eleven voyages at it but from 1852 I have been +in the south as well as at Greenland, and I have been at the ling +fishing too, and all sorts of trades. + +9627. When is your last payment of oil-money generally settled +for?-When the oil has been boiled at Dundee or Peterhead, and +they know how much there is of it, the money is sent on to +Lerwick. If we are there to receive it we will get it as soon as it +comes and if not, it will lie until we come. + +9628. Do you get it at the Custom House or Messrs. Hay's +office?-If we like, we get it at the Custom House; but this year +I would not go there and I got it at the office. It was at night, and +we could not get access to the Custom House; but as I wanted to +get clear. I was just paid at the office. + +9629. Is your first payment of wages and oil-money after you +come home generally made before you leave Lerwick and come +to Yell?-It is now. They are very strict about that. They like +you to settle up before you leave the town. + +9630. What amount of cash do you generally get as the first +payment on a Greenland voyage?-It depends on what kind of +voyage we make. Sometimes we have very little to get. Last year +I had somewhere about £10 or £12 to get for wages and the first +payment of oil-money. I had taken £2, 5s. of out-takes from +Messrs. Hay besides my first month's advance. That was for +supplies to my family at home while I was away. I was only +absent for six weeks. + +9631. What ship were you in?-The 'Labrador' of London. We +made a good voyage. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, DANIEL MORE, examined. + +9632. You are a fisherman and tenant at Cunningster?-I am a +fisherman, but not a tenant. I have got a house of my own. + +9633. How long have you been there?-About two months-since +Martinmas. I was at Basta before, and at Colvister, and at Basta +before that. + +9634. Why have you changed so often? Could you not get a bit of +ground to sit upon?-I was twenty-two years at first in Basta, and +then I lost my health, and I began some little business in groceries. +The landlord of the ground was Mr. George Hoseason, but the +tacksman was his half-brother, Mr. Hoseason of Mossbank. He +thought I was doing too well in my grocery business, and taking +away too much from their shop, and he put me away from there. + +[Page 233] + +9635. How did you know that he put you away for that reason?- +Because they told me that. + +9636. How long is it since that occurred?-About twelve years +ago. + +9637. Where did you go next?-To Colvister, where I was +under Mr. William Henderson of Gloup, brother of Mr. George +Henderson of Burravoe. I had a small shop there. + +9638. Why did you leave that?-I left because I was not a +fisherman. Mr. Henderson wanted me to go to the fishing; but +as I would not he got another in my place, and thought he would +make better of it. + +9639. Is it usual for a proprietor to turn away a man who does not +fish?-Yes. I paid £1 more than every man who fished every year +since I left the fishing, except to Mr. Hoseason of Basta. + +9640. Did you pay that to Mr. Henderson while you were at +Colvister?-Yes. + +9641. How long were you there?-Eight years. + +9642. Did you pay £8 of additional rent to him during that time?- +Yes. The other tenants paid £4 for the same amount of land that I +paid £5 for. + +9643. Did he tell you that that was because you did not fish?- +Yes. + +9644. Did he tell you that when you took the ground?-No; he did +not say very much about it at that time. + +9645. But he told you afterwards that you must pay £1 a year more +if you did not fish?-Yes. + +9646. Why did you leave?-I did not leave until he warned me. + +9647. Why did he warn you?-Because he wanted a skipper for a +boat. + +9648. Where have you been since?-I was on Basta for three +years. + +9649. Where are you now?-On Major Cameron's property, under +Mr. Walker. I have no shop there; but I have a house and a bit of +ground, which I bought with money I had saved. I am not doing +anything at present. + +9650. Have you known many men who have been turned out of +their holdings because they did not fish?-I have known a few in +Yell. The proprietors of the land, if they did not fish for them, +would turn them out. + +9651. Is that a common understanding among the people?-Yes. + +9659. Is there anything else you want to say about it?-Nothing +particular, but that I know I have been harshly handled because +they thought I made a living by selling some groceries and one +thing and another. They did not like it very well, and in that way +they turned me out of both places. + + +Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN S. HOUSTON, examined. + +9653. You are parochial schoolmaster of North Yell?-I am. + +9654. You have had considerable experience in the management +of property?-Yes, and in dividing runrig lands. + +9655. How long have you been in the country?-Between 15 and +16 years. + +9656. Have you had experience as to the relations existing +between proprietors of land and fish-merchants in Shetland?- +A little. + +9657. Would you explain the nature of the arrangements that +have been made in former times, and which are now made, +by which the rent of the proprietor is paid through or by the +fish-merchant?-When I came to Shetland, Major Cameron's +property in Yell was let to Mr. Sandison as tacksman; but when +the Major came from India, the lease had expired, and he +appointed me to take charge of his property. Frequently at rent +time the parties had not received their money for fish, and as a +necessary consequence they got lines from their curer, the sums in +which were placed to their credit by Major Cameron. The sum of +these lines when all was over was sent to the fish-curer, the party +who gave the lines, and a cheque on the bank was given for them. + +9658. Was that merely a practice resorted to for the convenience +of the fishermen and the proprietor, or was there an understanding +with the fish-curer that he should make these advances?-It was a +convenience for all parties. + +9659. You are not aware that there was any understanding between +the fish-curer and the proprietor to that effect?-There was an +understanding between Major Cameron and Mr. Sandison. + +9660. Was Mr. Sandison the fish-curer you have referred to?- +Yes, Sandison Brothers. There was an understanding that any of +Major Cameron's tenants who were what might be called reckless +or careless, should not be allowed to overdraw their earnings, but +that something should be left for their rent. + +9661. Was Mr. Sandison a tenant of Major Cameron's in his +fishcuring premises?-Yes. + +9662. Were these lines always in the same form?-Generally they +were the same. I have plenty of them at home.* + +9663. Are you aware of a similar practice having existed on any +other estate?-I believe it has existed but I cannot speak so +positively about it on other estates. I may say that similar lines +have also been given to Major Cameron and myself from another +curer in North Yell, Mr. William Pole, jun. before he became a +partner of the Mossbank firm. + +9664. Had he premises from Major Cameron also?-No; he had +his father's premises. With regard to these lines, I may state that, +although there was no understanding on the subject, Major +Cameron made it a practice not to come to his tenants asking for +their rents until he was pretty sure that everything was nearly +cut-and-dry for him. + +9665. Do you think it is a general practice in Shetland for the +landlord to fix his rent day so as to be convenient for the +fishermen?-I think it is. They fix it after settlement. Mr. +Walker, the first year he was factor for Major Cameron, came +nearly close to his time, 11th November, but since then he has +not done so. + +9666. You are not aware whether that practice of giving lines +exists in Yell now?-It does exist. I myself have paid rents by +orders for cattle bought from Major Cameron's tenants. + +9667. Have you had much intercourse with the fishermen in your +district of the country?-Yes; I often hear their conversations. + +9668. Do you know generally the way in which business is +conducted in the fish trade?-I think I do. + +9669. Are you aware that much complaint exists with regard to the +way in which the current price for fish is fixed at the end of the +season?-The fishermen, as a general rule always complain. + +9670. What are the grounds of their complaint?-I think the +reason why they complain is, that they believe the curers never +give them so large a price as they should do. There is a sort of +jealousy abroad amongst all the fishermen, which perhaps +originated in formerdays, but which is still rankling in their +bosoms. + +9671. A jealousy of whom?-A jealousy of the fish-curers, that +they don't give them fair play. + +9672. Have you seen any cases where you thought they did not get +fair play?-Not for some time past. + +9673. Are you able to form an opinion upon the question whether +the fishermen are justified in complaining of the manner in which +the current price is fixed?-I think, as a general rule, they are not. +I know practically, from curers books that I had access to, that the +current price is fairly fixed. + +9674. Have you been employed as an [Page 234] accountant?- +No; but I have had confidence placed in me, and I have seen their +books. + +9675. Have you any means of knowing whether there are more +prices than one for the fish, according to the market to which they +are sent?-I am aware that each curer does not receive the same +price. There are exceptions to the rule. Some send their fish +direct to the foreign market, and some sell to a home firm, who +require something for their risk and trouble. + +9676. Do you think the present system of distant payments for the +fish could be altered, and a better one introduced?-I don't well +see how it could be altered for the benefit of the fishermen. + +9677. Is that on account of the bad seasons which occur +occasionally?-Not altogether on account of the bad season, +but it suits them better. Many of them prefer to leave their +money with their curer until they require it for their rents. + +9678. They prefer him to act as their banker?-Exactly. + +9679. Is it not the case that many fishermen who ask advances +from their curers before the fishing season begins, or during its +course, are really capitalists with considerable sums in the +bank?-I am not aware of any case of that kind, but I know plenty +of fishermen who have money in the bank. I should say that the +system would perhaps be more healthy if the fishermen were paid +when the fishing was over. That would remove many grievances +now complained of. + +9680. Do you think they should be paid in July or August?-In the +end of August. + +9681. But if they were paid then they might get a lower price than +the fish-merchants eventually got?-They would have to be paid at +a rate by which the curer would be certain to be safe as his fish +had not gone to market, and they did not know what they would +realize; but the same holds good on the coast of Scotland in the +herring fishing. + +9682. Would the fishermen, so far as you know them, be content +with a system of that sort?-I cannot say; I rather think not. + +9683. Do you think they would like to have the chance of a larger +price?-They would engage just now for the next season if they +were satisfied that they would realize 1s. more than the market +would afford them at Martinmas. + +9684. But they would not engage otherwise?-No. + +9685. Do you think they would endeavour to get quit of such a +bargain if the price at Martinmas should turn out to be higher than +what they had agreed for the commencement of the season?- +Attempts are made of that nature in their dealings in the selling of +cattle. + +9686. Are cattle sometimes sold according to a current price at a +later period?-Cattle are sometimes bought during the spring. If +not bought then, they are sold by auction at fixed sales in May, and +in the mainland they have a Martinmas sale for fat cattle. + +9687. But they are sometimes sold before these sales?-They are +sold in spring to parties going through the district seeking cattle to +buy; and during the last season the prices were so very high at the +spring sales, that I know parties who had sold their cattle before, +and then came back upon the purchaser asking him for the +currency of the sale, although their animals had been sold months +before. + +9688. Did they get what they asked?-In one case they did. + +9689. Was that from a proprietor?-No. + +9690. Does the practice of marking the horns of cattle exist in +Yell?-It does. + +9691. In what circumstances is that done?-If a tenant becomes +indebted to me and cannot pay me in cash, he offers me one of his +cattle and to make sure of it I cut the initials of my name on its +horns. + +9692. Are you assuming that you are the landlord?-It does not +matter whether I am the landlord or not. I may be a merchant, and +it is the merchants who do it; the landlord does not require to do it, +because the hypothec protects him. + +9693. But the merchant takes his chance of the landlord's +hypothec interfering with him?-Yes. + +9694. If a merchant marks a beast in that way, is it generally +exposed at the next periodical sale?-Sometimes it is, but +sometimes it is taken away at a price fixed upon at the time. +If not, it is sold, and the merchant gets his money. + +9695. Do you think the debtor in that case has perfect freedom in +fixing the price?-Both parties fix it. + +9696. But do you think the debtor is under no constraint?-None. +Arbitration would decide it. + +9697. Arbitration might decide it, but is arbitration resorted to?- +Sometimes. A person understood to be qualified puts a value upon +the cattle, or the currency at which such animals are selling at that +time is taken. + +9698. It has been alleged that when merchants got people deeply +in debt they mark their cattle, and they can take them at any price +they choose: is that so?-I have never seen a case of that kind. +Such a practice may have existed 20 or 30 years ago, but I am +entirely ignorant of it. I may further state something which was +not exactly implied in your questions, but which in the south is +generally misunderstood. As a general rule, the fishermen get +one-third of the selling price of the fish. Fish dry in 5-9ths-that is +21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. dry, fit for the market,-and it +is understood that the curer pays one-third; but when the price may +be £20 and upwards, he pays more than one-third of the selling +prices. When the price is £14 or £15 he can only afford to pay +one-third, the expenses being the same per ton for curing at the +high price as at the low price. Suppose he sells his fish at £20 per +ton, he pays his fishermen £7; 21/4 times 7 are £15, 15s. The curing +of that ton of fish costs him £2, 10s., that is £18, 5s., leaving him +£1, 15s. to pay for his salt, to transport them to his store, and ship +them on board a vessel, and to pay their freight to Leith. Hence it +follows that the fish-curer has very little profit indeed. + +9699. Upon what data is that conclusion of yours rounded?-Upon +facts which I know with regard to the prices paid by curers. + +9700. Do you know the price of the salt and the expenses of +curing, through the curers themselves?-The fixed price for +curing has always been 50s. + +9701. That is the price which they charge?-That is the price +which a party would charge a curer for curing his fish. + +9702. That would be for salting and curing?-They would salt +them, but the salt belongs to the curer. + +9703. But the price of the salt is included in the 50s.?-No. I have +my information from a curer of long standing, but who is not now +in the trade. + +9704. Have you any information to give with regard to the +obligations of fishermen upon other estates in Shetland to fish +for the landlords?-I have had a good deal to do with the property +of Simbister, on which there were no tenants bound to fish, except +those belonging to the Coningsburgh district, who were under tack +to Mouat. Their leases bound them to do so; but, on the expiry of +that lease, Mr. Bruce did not intend to let any of his lands again +after that fashion. To my knowledge he refused to let them to a +party who would have been a good tenant. + +9705. Is there any other point falling within this inquiry upon +which you are prepared to make any statement?-The only other +statement I should wish to make would be a sort of qualification as +to why the fishermen are generally dissatisfied with the prices they +get. It is understood that they get one-third, or a little more when +the prices are high, and if that is the understanding they argue that +they ought to see the bills of sale. They say, 'Why not lay down to +us when you settle, the document according to which you have +sold your fish; we don't know what you have sold them at, we only +have that from hearsay.' That is the only reason why I think the +fishermen actually complain. + +9706. Do you see any reason why they should not see the bills of +sale?-I think they are entitled to see them. + +[Page 235] + +9707. Are they not really partners with the curer?-They are; for +they are risking the market as well as the curer. + +9708. Have you read the evidence that was given before this +Commission in Edinburgh?-I have; and the only observation I +would make upon it is, that I am not a believer in it generally. +Facts are stated as existing many years ago, but which are not +applicable to the present day, as a general rule, throughout +Shetland. + +9709. Do you think the condition of Shetland has improved during +the sixteen years you have lived in it?-Yes; especially during the +last five, and more especially during the last three years. The +prices of cattle have been so high that a tenant could pay his rent at +once with an animal, when he could not do that before. The price +of fish has also improved. + +9710. These, however, may be transient facts?-They may be. + +9711. Prices may fall?-They may. + +9712. Is there any permanent cause operating to improve the +condition of Shetland?-There is more direct communication with +the south. Purchasers come into it now and buy directly, instead of +buying through natives resident here acting as their agents, and +who perhaps might charge something extra for their own trouble, +and that had to come off the people. There is one part of Mr. +Walker's evidence which I consider to be perfectly true, where he +referred to the giving of credit to children or almost children. I +believe that to be an injurious practice, because children are +initiated into the system of getting credit when they are eleven or +twelve years old, and it never ceases with them unless they leave +home. It may in certain cases cease; but as a general rule it does +not, and I think it is like learning them to smoke tobacco, or +anything of that sort. + +9713. Is there any other point in Mr. Walker's evidence, or the +evidence given in Edinburgh, which you consider to be true?-The +evidence given in Edinburgh contained a great many facts highly +coloured, and I may add somewhat exaggerated. + +9714. Do you think the present state of the hosiery trade is a +wholesome one?-No. I consider the hosiery trade, as a whole, +to be a morally unhealthy one as it present exists. + +9715. Is that because of the facilities which offers for the younger +members of the family to get into debt?-It is not that. I speak +particularly of Yell, where yarn is produced; the merchants have to +lay a higher price on their goods when they give them for yarn than +they would do for cash, or for any other article brought to them +which was worth its value in cash. + +9716. Do they put a higher price upon the goods which they sell +for yarn?-They must do it. + +9717. Is not that high price charged in all other sales as well as in +sales which they make for yarn?-No; the country merchants here +have two prices. + +9718. You heard the evidence of Mr. Pole to-day, in which he said +they had only one price for all their goods?-Yes. Mr. Pole seems +to have adopted a new system. I know they had two prices some +time ago. + +9719. You are aware that two prices did exist there?-Yes, and in +many other places. + +9720. You believe that to be unwholesome?-I do. + +9721. Does it create a bad feeling towards the merchant?-I think +the practice is morally wrong. To meet these things, many females +come, not with 100 threads in each cut, but with from 90 down to +80, obliging the merchant to count the yarn which he buys from +certain parties in whom he has not implicit confidence. + +9722. Of course that encourages deception?-Yes. With regard to +the trade in yarn, the merchant buys it according to its quality. If +he is to sell it in Lerwick, he employs a party for the purpose, who +receives a percentage for selling it. The merchant has also to pay +freight, and he has to lay these things upon his goods. + +9723. Are you aware that in Lerwick the practice of the merchants +is not to sell worsted at all, but merely to purchase what they want +for their own use?-I am not aware of that. I know there are +merchants in Lerwick who do sell worsted, but they could scarcely +be called <bona fide> hosiery merchants. They are generally +people who sell for some one in the country, sometimes as a +favour, and sometimes for commission. + +9724. These are not hosiery shops?-No; they are sometimes +grocers. + +9725. I fancy that a party selling yarn may more readily take it to a +grocer if she wants provisions rather than dry goods, as she will +not get provisions in Lerwick from the merchants?-The grocer +won't buy it unless he requires it for family use, but he will take it +from a merchant as a favour, and sell it for him. + +9726. But I have been informed by many merchants in Lerwick +that they always purchase Shetland worsted for money; and as they +require all they can get and more for their own use, they do not sell +it again at all; so that, according to that information, any person +going from Yell to Lerwick and selling worsted, could get the +highest cash price for it from one of the hosiery merchants: is that +not consistent with your knowledge of the matter?-I am aware +that cash has been given. I have known a firm that dealt with a +Lerwick hosiery merchant to a very large extent, and perhaps +received £90 in cash for hosiery and yarn in one season. That, +however, I looked upon as an exception. + +9727. You heard the evidence of William Stewart with regard to +Whalsay?-Yes. + +9728. You were employed by the late Mr. Bruce to divide the +toons there?-Yes. He wished to abolish the run-rig system, and +to place his tenants on a money-paying system-to fish for whom +they chose, and to pay him a rent. I was employed to make the +division, and I divided every toon in the island, except one. + +9729. At that time did you find that the system which Stewart +described was either prevailing, or had been prevailing shortly +before?-It was just dying out.** + +[Page 236] + +9730. Does any other person wish to be examined, or to make any +statement? [No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until +further notice. + +*The witness afterwards forwarded a number of these lines. They +were in similar terms to the following:- + +'CULLIVOE, 8<th Dec>. 1864. +'£7, 0s. 7d. + +'Mr. HOUSTON,-Please credit A.B. in rent account the sum +of seven pounds and sevenpence, and charge to account of + ' SANDISON BROTHERS.' + +**Mr. Houston afterwards submitted the following remarks by +way of supplement to his evidence;-The collecting of rents and +<arrears> of long standing, and the dividing and renting of farms, +and other unavoidable accompaniments, placed me as a temporary +link between landlord and tenant, and tended to give me a +knowledge of Shetland affairs in general, as existing between +landlord and tenant, between fish-curer and fishermen, and +between merchant and customer. Although the dividing and +letting of farms may not be considered relevant to the present +inquiry into the truck system, I hold a <decidedly opposite +opinion>. No doubt poverty is the foundation upon which the +truck system has been reared, and may justly be called its <foster> +parent; and the origin may be traced, very clearly too, to the +subdividing of farms, it being the interest of the landlord-curer to +accommodate as many fishermen as possible. In many districts, +and on small properties where the landlord is storekeeper and +curer, that system is still upheld, and <fostered> with pious care; +while on many of the larger properties the proprietors are +endeavouring to abolish it. The islands being over-populated, and +the farms so insignificantly small, it follows as a result that the +inhabitants have to depend on external aid, and throw themselves, +although reluctantly it may be, into the arms of a system which, +however honestly conducted, has a tendency to hamper their +movements, to bereave them of independence, and to plunge +parents and their children into debt, out of which they may never +be able to extricate themselves. There is an antidote, but its +application would require to be a work of <time>. + +<Fishcurer and Fishermen>. + +In my evidence I stated that at present I considered fishermen +were generally well treated, and received as high a price as the +curer could well afford; but at same time I <do not> consider the +curer is acting judiciously. Under the present arrangement of +prices, I can only view the curer and his fishermen in the light of a +joint-stock company. The curer supplies boats and lines directly +or indirectly. The fishermen give their labour and risk their lives, +and when the summer fishing closes, the part the fishermen play in +the speculation terminates. The curer prepares the fish for the +market, disposes of them, and receives the cash. As the price to be +paid to the fishermen is regulated by the market price, I consider it +the bounden duty of the curer to lay before the fishermen, at +settling, the <missive of sale>, that document being the common +property of <both parties>, and more especially as three-fourths at +least of the cash realized is understood to belong to the men. +<That>, however, <is not the practice>; and hence the fishermen, +naturally jealous, and still wincing under the scars of former years, +are never satisfied; and I consider the curer in acting thus is +reprehensible, and the fishermen justified in complaining, even +when the curer is a sufferer. Were it made penal on the part of the +curer to treat the bargain so, there would be less injustice done to +himself, and less suspicion thrown around his integrity. Since the +truck uproar has spread its wings on the Shetland blast, and +breathed offensively in the faces even of Her Majesty's +Government, it has been suggested by strangers that curers should +pay their fishermen each time fish was delivered. That mode +would not be advantageous to the fishermen. It would suit their +interests better to be paid at the close of the fishing, on the same +principle as is done by those engaged in the seal trade. At every +station during the summer fishing there is a 'beach price,' and if +that price was paid for the summer's catch at the close of the +fishing it would put the fishermen in a position of buying with +<cash> instead of being dependent on their curer's store for +months after the fishing had closed. The residue of the price, +which would be a mere trifle, would be paid them when the fish +was sold, and the price known, on the same principle as 'oil-money' +in the seal trade. I have no doubt whatever but such a mode, if +adopted, would tend to put a stop to the present and <necessary> +facilities of drawing so largely upon the curer's store. The +fisherman who has neither money nor <credit> must go to his curer's +store, as he has no other alternative; but were he put in possession +of his earnings at the close of the fishing, <truck> for a time would +disappear from his individual horizon. I may mention that the hosier +referred to in my evidence as having paid £90 in cash in a year to a +party in the country for hosiery and yarn was Mr. Robert Linklater, +Lerwick; and I may further state that I have known Mr. Robert Sinclair +give £15 once on a £20 transaction of hosiery, etc. + +BALTASOUND, UNST: FRIDAY, JANUARY 19, 1872. + +<Present>-MR. GUTHRIE. + +JOAN OGILVY, examined. + +9731. Have you been in the habit of knitting with your own +worsted?-Yes; at times with my own worsted, and at times +with worsted from other people. + +9732. When you knit with your own worsted, do you spin it +yourself?-No; sometimes I buy it, and sometimes other people +spin it for me; but it is not much that I do in that way. The most I +have made has been for other people. + +9733. Do you not spin at all?-No; my mother spins a little and I +have knitted that and sold the hosiery. + +9734. At what shops do you buy worsted here?-I have not bought +any, except a little, once, at John Johnston's shop. I paid 3d. a cut +for it in cash. + +9735. Do they not give you worsted unless you pay for it in +money?-I never asked it. + +9736. Have you never asked for worsted when you were selling +your hosiery?-No. + +9737. Are you generally paid for your hosiery in goods?-Yes, +goods or other articles which I require such as tea and meal, and +other things. + +9738. Do you sell most of your knitting to Mrs. Spence?-No. I +have sold nothing to her, except one half-shawl. I have sold a few +veils to John Johnston. They are very fine veils that I knit, and I +get 1s. 6d. for each of them. + +9739. Are you always paid for them in goods?-No. I have got +cash. I knit superior articles, and I have sometimes got as much +as 30s. for knitting one silk shawl. That was not the price of the +shawl: it was merely for the knitting. + +9740. But when you sell a shawl made by yourself, what do you +get for it?-I sold one worsted shawl in May in John Johnston's +shop, for which I got 19s. 6d. I did not ask for any cash, because +it was not the custom to give it. + +9741. Is it the custom here to pay for hosiery in nothing but +goods?-I get cash at times. + +9742. Are your shawls generally worth about 20s.?-No; I have +sold half-shawls at 16s., and others at 15s. and 14s. + +9743. What was the largest sum you ever got in money when you +sold a shawl of that value?-15s.; that was the whole price of it, +but that was some years back, and I sold it to a lady. + +9744. But when you sold to a merchant have you ever got the +whole price in money?-No; I never asked it. + +9745. Do you get a higher price for your work when you take it in +goods than when you get money for it?-I don't think so. + +9746. You said you sold a shawl in May last for 19s. 6d., and got +the price all in goods. Suppose you had asked payment for that +shawl in money, would you have asked the same price for it?- +Yes, but I would not have got it. They would not have give cash +for it. + +9747. Would you not have got 2s. 6d. less in money?-I did not +ask for it in that way. + +9748. Would you have sold that shawl for 17s. if you had got +money?-I think so. + +9749. Would you rather have had the 17s. in money than the 19s. +6d. in goods?-I don't think I would have been any better. + +9750. Did you want the goods?-Yes. + +9751. Would you not have got them cheaper if you had had the +cash in your hand to pay for them?-I might have got them a little +cheaper. + +9752. Do you think you would always be willing to sell your +hosiery goods a little cheaper if you were paid in cash instead of +in goods?-I don't think I would. The price is low enough, even +with the goods payment. + +9753. When you get the worsted given out to you, are you paid in +money or in goods for knitting it?-Sometimes in money and +sometimes in goods, just as I ask it. + +9754. For whom do you knit in that way?-I have knitted some for +Mrs. Spence. I knit fine silk for her, not Shetland worsted. I got +30s. for knitting one shawl for her, and 25s. for another; but these +were very fine ones, and of large size. It took me a long time to +work them. She paid me for these in cash. + +9755. Did she hand you over the money, or did she send you down +to the shop for it?-She gave me the money with her own hand. + +9756. Did she do so in both cases?-Yes; part of it, and part I took +a little goods for, just as suited myself. + +9757. How much of the 30s. did she hand you over in cash?-I +cannot say exactly now, because it is more than a year ago. + +9758. Did she give you a half of it in cash?-More than that. + +9759. How did you get the rest in goods? Did you go to the shop +for them?-No. They were brought from Lerwick for me. They +were women's cloth jackets. + +9760. Were you to sell these in your own shop?-I have no shop. + +9761. Did you not sell groceries?-No. I had a little goods at one +time to sell for a man in Lerwick, but I have none now. I gave out +hosiery to the girls, and when they brought it back I served them +with the goods which I had got from the man in Lerwick. + +9762. Who was he?-Peter Edward Petrie. + +9763. Does he deal in hosiery?-Yes. + +9764. And does he deal in groceries in Lerwick?-He has given up +his shop, but he dealt there at one time in soft goods and tea. + +9765. How much cash did you get from Mrs. [Page 237] Spence +for the 25s. shawl?-I don't remember; it is two years ago. + +9766. Have you sold some things to Mrs. Spence since?-No; but +I have always knitted some things for her. The last was a fine +worsted shawl. I took it to her about a month ago. I think the +price would be 12s., but I have not settled with her yet. + +9767. Do you keep an account with her?-She keeps an account +for me herself. + +9768. Have you not got any part of the price of that shawl?-The +price is not settled, but I have got some goods for it. + +9769. Do you sometimes take a line from her?-No; I have had no +lines from her. + +9770. Is that because there is an account for you in her books, and +you don't need them?-I suppose so. + +9771. When you want goods do you go to the shop and get +them?-Yes, I get them from her. + +9772. Does she attend in the shop?-I believe she does at times, +but she does not keep the things there which she supplies to us. +The things for the knitting come from Lerwick. + +9773. She just enters these things against you in your account, and +then she enters in your favour the shawls which you make, and she +balances now and then?-Yes. + +9774. How often do you settle your account with her?-Not often. +I have not had a great deal of goods from her. + +9775. Have you got any money at all from her for what you have +knitted?-Yes; but I could not say how much, because I did not +think of keeping an account of it. + +9776. Will you knit £2 or £3 worth to her in the course of a +year?-I did that when I was knitting for her, and perhaps it little +more. + +9777. How much of that would you get in money?-I would get it +all from her if I asked it. I have got £2 a time from her. + +9778. Was that for knitting, or for a shawl that you were selling?- +It was for knitting. + +9779. Did you want the money to pay your rent?-Yes, partly, and +partly for other things. + +9780. Do you know that Mrs. Spence always gives you goods for +your knitting which she gets from Lerwick?-Yes, when I ask +them; but when I ask for cash I get it. + +9781. But you do not often ask for cash?-I have oftener asked +cash from her than from any other person and she always gave it to +me because she knew I could not do without it. + +9782. Are you a finer knitter than ordinary?-Yes. I make very +good articles. + +9783. Do you sometimes knit a shawl for a special order?-Yes. + +9784. Do you sometimes make a bargain then that you are to be +paid in cash for it?-Yes. + +9785. Do you think the price is less when you make bargain that +you are to be paid in money than when you take it out in goods?- +No, it is not less. + +9786. Would you not sell a shawl for it less price if you knew you +were to get it in money than if you knew you were only to be paid +in goods?-I might have 1s. less, but not much less. + +9787. Have you never got a line from Mrs. Spence, or from any +shop here?-No. I have got no lines since the late Mrs. Dr. +Edmonstone died. I knitted for her, and sometimes I got cash +from her, and sometimes lines for goods on the shop. + +9788. But that was some time ago?-Yes. + +9789. Do you sometimes knit for John Johnston?-Yes. I get +worsted from him to knit, and I take it back to him again. I have +got 10s. from him for knitting a shawl of 27 scores: that is an +ordinary size. I got none of that in money. I never asked it from +him. He keeps a shop, and therefore I don't ask him for money. + +9790. Then why do you ask Mrs. Spence for money? Is it because +she does not keep a shop?-She only keeps soft goods. + +9791. And you are not always wanting soft goods?-No. + +9792. Do you do anything besides knitting?-I work at the harvest, +and at other kinds of work. I have it very small farm of my own. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Mrs. JANET ROBERTSON, +examined. + +9793. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes. + +9794. Do you knit with your own worsted?-No; the worsted is +given out to me. + +9795. Who do you generally knit for?-Mrs. Spence. + +9796. Do you do a great deal of fine work for her?-Yes. + +9797. How do you receive payment?-In goods and money. I get +money when I want it, but it is generally in goods. I get supplies in +the shop upon a line which Mrs. Spence gives me. I take the line +to the shop at once and get what goods or provisions I require. + +9798. Does Mrs. Spence take the shawl from you and give you a +line in her own house, which is beside the shop?-Yes. + +9799. Then you go with the line into the shop and get what goods +you want?-Yes. The line is addressed to Messrs. Spence & Co., +and signed by her, and the which is due is written upon it. + +9800. Is that always the way in which you are paid?-Yes. + +9801. How often do you go with work to Mrs. Spence?-Perhaps +once a month; just when my work is finished. + +9802. Have you generally 15s. or 20s. to get?-Perhaps from 10s. +to 12s. + +9803. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of fine +worsted?-The highest is 12s. There are thirty-three cuts of +worsted given out to me for knitting a shawl of 30 scores. I +think the price of the worsted is 3d. or 4d. a cut, but I never +bought any myself. + +9804. When you do not get provisions or groceries, but take soft +goods for your knitting, do you go to the shop for them, or do you +get them from Mrs. Spence herself?-I get them from the shop. + +9805. Have you knitted for any person except Mrs. Spence?-I +have done a little for John Johnston; but I am paid in the same way +there, in goods. + +9806. Do you get no lines there?-No. + +9807. You just take the article to the shop and get the goods you +want?-Yes. + +9808. How do you manage when you are to pay your rent?-I have +no rent to pay. I have a house of my own. + +9809. Do you keep an account with any of the shops?-No. + +9810. Do you always get your provisions from Spence & Co.'s at +Haroldswick?-Yes. + +9811. What do you pay for tea?-10d. and 1s. per quarter. + +9812. What do you pay for your meal?-1s. 4d. a peck. It is 1s. +5d. just now. + +9813. What do you pay for a half-loaf?-5d. + +9814. Is that brought from Lerwick?-Yes. + +9815. What do you pay for unbleached cotton?-10d.; but I have +not bought it for some time back. There is some of it at 6d., but +not of such a good quality. The cotton at 6d. is half-bleached. I +bought that half-bleached cotton in summer, and I am sure I paid +6d. a yard for it. + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN LAURENSON, examined. + +9816. You are a fisherman at Burrafirth?-I am. + +9817. You hold a bit of land there?-Yes, from Mr. Edmonstone +of Buness. + +9818. What rent do you pay?-£5. + +9819. Are you bound to fish for any person in particular?- [Page +238] Not that I know of, but I fish for Spence & Co. I have fished +for them since they commenced business, and before that to Mr. +David Edmonstone, when he was carrying on business in that way. + +9820. Have you fished for any other person in Unst?-Yes. I +fished first for the late Mr. Thomas Edmonstone of Buness, and +then for Mr. Samuel Hunter. + +9821. Have you always been free to fish for any person you +chose?-I don't think so. When I was a tenant to the late Mr. +Edmonstone of Buness I fished for him, and when Mr. Hunter got +a tack of the land I fished for him, but I could not tell exactly +whether I was free to fish for any other person or not. + +9822. You don't know what would have happened to you if you +had sold your fish to anybody else?-I do not. + +9823. But now you can fish for any person you please?-I believe +I can. + +9824. Is there any other person except Spence & Co. to whom you +can sell your fish here?-There is no one in our quarter except Mr. +John Johnston. He does a little in the fish way, but we don't sell +any to him. + +9825. Do most of the people hereabout fish for Spence & Co., and +settle with them every winter?-Yes. + +9826. Have you settled with them for last year?-Yes, I settled +about 10th January at Haroldswick. + +9827. Have you a pass-book?-No. + +9828. Have you an account in their books?-Yes. + +9829. Is that read over to you, or do you know the balance +yourself?-It is read over on the day of settlement. + +9830. Have you a note of the articles you have got?-No. + +9831. Then how do you know that your account is correct?-I +have never found anything wrong with regard to the articles which +I had got, and I was quite satisfied they were all correct. + +9832. Did you remember that you had got all the articles, and the +price of them, when they were read over to you?-Yes. + +9833. Did you order them?-Yes; I either got them myself or some +member of my family brought them home. + +9834. But are you sure that you can recollect perfectly well both +the articles you got, and the quantities, and the prices?-Yes; +when the account is read over to me I can. + +9835. When you get a thing out of the shop, do you always know +the price of it?-Yes. + +9836. You ask the price, and you are told what it is at the time +when you buy it?-Yes. + +9837. Do you get all your supplies there?-Yes; unless perhaps a +very little which we may buy from some other shop. + +9838. Do you sometimes buy at Johnston's shop?-Yes, but very +little. + +9839. Do you pay for that at the time?-Yes. + +9840. You have not an account with Johnston?-No. + +9841. I suppose most of your neighbours have an account with +Spence & Co. and get the most of their supplies from them?-Yes. + +9842. Do none of them deal with other shops in the district?-I am +not able to say what they do. + +9843. What was the price of meal at Spence & Co.'s shop during +the past year?-1s. 5d. per 8 lbs. I think it was the same price for +almost the whole year. I rather think it was 1s. 4d. once, but I +cannot say. + +9844. Have you got meal from any other shop?-Yes, from Mr. +Isbister. The price there was 1s. 4d. + +9845. Did you pay for that in cash?-Yes. + +9846. Was the meal of the same quality?-Yes. + +9847. Do you buy any soft goods from Spence & Co.'s shop?- +Yes, I buy white cotton for making oilskin clothes and shirts. We +pay from 41/2d. to 8d., according to the quality of the cotton. It is +generally unbleached cotton that we buy. + +9848. Do you oil it and make it waterproof yourself?-Yes. + +9849. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Spence & Co. They pay +it to Mr. Edmonstone for me. + +9850. Do you mean that it is put down in your account with them +against you?-Yes. + +9851. How do they pay it to Mr. Edmonstone?-In cash, I +suppose; but I don't know anything about that. + +9852. They don't give you a line to Mr. Edmonstone?-No. + +9853. Do you get receipts for your rent?-Yes, if we ask for them. + +9854. But you don't generally ask for them?-No. + +9855. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year, or +is the balance against you?-The balance is against me at present, +and it has been against me since the first year of the company in +consequence of bad fishings and bad crops. + +9856. What boat hire do you pay?-£2, 14s. for the boat, or 9s. per +man. I buy my own lines. I get them at fishing time, and they are +marked into the account. The price is from 2s. 3d. to 3s. per line, +according to the weight of the lines. I require ten ground lines and +a line for a buoy rope. + +9857. Does each man require that number?-Yes. + +9858. Do you pay about 24s. for the ten lines?-Yes; and then we +have to furnish these lines with smaller lines and hooks. If they +are all new, the cost of lines and hooks will be about 30s. per man +for what we call a weight of lines. + +9859. How do you settle for them?-We settle for them along with +all the rest of our accounts on the day of settlement. The whole +account is read over and summed up together, and then the rent is +brought forward, and the whole dealings put in. Our earnings are +placed on the credit side of the page, and then balance is struck in +our favour, or against us, as case may be. + +9860. Are all the lines charged against you one year?-Yes. + +9861. When you buy the lines at the beginning of the fishing +season, there is no arrangement that the price of them is to be +charged against, the next three years, and that you are to pay them +by instalments?-No. + +9862. Do you return the lines at the end of the season?-No; we +keep them. They will perhaps serve for three seasons; or if the +lines are really good, they may do for four. + +9863. Then you will have nothing to pay for lines the second year +if you have paid them up in the first year?-If we have paid them +up we have nothing to pay afterwards. + +9864. Do you usually manage to pay up your lines in the first +year?-We generally pay what we can when we settle. What we +have over from the fishing is just put to the payment of the whole +that we are due. + +9865. Are there any other fishing expenses excepting the boats and +lines?-Yes; the hooks and tomes, or small lines, have always to +be put in repair. + +9866. Do you pay for them?-Yes; we buy the whole of them, and +we repair the tomes and hooks ourselves. + +9867. Then that is not an additional expense?-No. + +9868. Do you ever get any cash advanced to you from Spence & +Co.?-At times I get a few shillings. + +9869. How long is it since you began to fish for them?-I have +fished for Mr. Spence since 1857, and for Spence & Co. in 1868, +1869, 1870, and 1871. + +9870. Have you ever got anything more than four shillings in +cash?-No, not in cash. + +9871. Have you any taxes or poor-rates to pay?-Yes; the +poor-rates are charged by Mr. White, the inspector and collector, +and they are paid in cash. + +9872. Do you draw that from your account with the company, or +how do you raise the cash for it?-I get a little cash from the +company to pay my poor-rates. + +9873. Do you sell any stock off your farm?-Yes, when I have a +cow I sell it. I cannot sell one every year; I have not so many as +that. + +9874. Have you no other beasts but cows?-No. + +[Page 239] + +9875. Who did you sell your last cow to?-The last I sold to the +company; it was a three-year-old quey. It was taken to the sale in +May 1871, and I got 9s., which was put to my account. I got no +money. + +9876. Did you ever get money for any of the stock you have sold +during the last five years?-No. + +9877. Were they always put into your account?-Yes. + +9878. Did you always sell them to Spence & Co.?-I sold them to +Mr. David Edmonstone. I sold nothing to the company except that +quey. + +9879. Why did you sell them to Mr. Edmonstone?-They were put +down towards my rent. + +9880. Then you did not pay your rent at that time through Spence +& Co.?-No; I was not fishing for them then. I sold a fat cow to +Mr. David Edmonstone since I began to fish for Spence, to pay a +balance which I was due him. These are all the cattle I have had to +sell. + +9881. Have you not sold any other stock except these two cattle for +the last five or six years?-No. + +9882. Is there any other way you have of getting money except by +selling your stock and your fish?-No. + +9883. Then you will not have much money passing through your +hands?-No, very little. + +9884. Will you have £1 in your hands in the course of a year?-I +could hardly say, because I don't take particular note of how many +twopences or sixpences pass through my hands. + +9885. But will you have £1 at a time?-No; I have not had £1 at a +time. + +9886. Have you had 10s.?-Yes; I have had that. + +9887. Do you sometimes sell your winter fish?-Yes. + +9888. Do you get money for them?-Yes, if we ask it. + +9889. Who do you sell them to?-To Spence & Co. + +9890. Are you generally paid in money for your winter fish?-A +little money and some goods. + +9891. But these are settled for at the time?-They do not enter +your account at all. + +9892. Would you get the whole price of your winter fish in cash if +you asked for it?-I believe I would; but I could not say, because I +have never asked the whole of it in that way. + +9893. Why have you never asked it?-Because I thought the goods +were just the same from their shop as from any other place, and I +did not think of asking them for money with which to go to any +other place and purchase goods. + +9894. Did you think you would not have got it all if you had asked +for it in cash?-I cannot say, because I never did ask it; but I think +I would have got it if I had asked them, so far as I know. + +9895. Are you quite content to go on in this way without getting +your money into your own hands?-I should like to get all my own +money into my own hands if I could. + +9896. You say you think you could have got the money for your +winter fish if you had asked it?-I think I could. + +9897. Then why did you not ask for it if you would like to have +your money?-For the reason I have mentioned: that I thought the +goods were the same in their shop as in any other place and +therefore I did not ask it. + +9898. Then why do you want the money?-Because if I had +the money, I would perhaps buy my goods somewhere else, if I +thought I could get them cheaper or better. + +9899. Have you any fault to find with the quality of the goods you +get at their shop?-Sometimes I think the meal is not very good. +Flour was sometimes 1s. 3d., and it was not very good. + +9900. Did you ever try any other flour?-Yes; I got a little from +other places. It was not very much that I could buy, but I got flour +at other shops which was of superior quality. + +9901. What did you pay for it?-About 1s. 4d or 1s. 5d. + +9902. Then that was it little dearer than the flour you got at the +company's shop?-Yes; I got it at Mr. Johnston's. + +9903. Would you not have got as good flour at the company's shop +if you had paid a higher price for it?-Yes; they had good flour at +1s. 6d. + +9904. But you cannot complain of them giving you a worse quality +of flour at a lower price?-No. + +9905. Was the meal the same as you get at any place for the same +sum?-It was 1d. per peck higher last summer. + +9906. And you said it was not quite so good as you would like?- +That was the flour. + +9907. I thought you said so about the meal also?-There were +some weeks when the meal was really good, and some weeks +when it was not so good. + +9908. How did you get the money with which to purchase flour at +Johnston's?-We sold a few eggs or a little butter, and got it in +that way. + +9909. You did not pay for it in money, but in eggs or butter?- +Yes. + +9910. Is that it common way of selling your eggs and butter?- +Yes. + +9911. You do not get money for them?-No. + +9912. Why did you not take the eggs and butter to Spence & Co.'s +shop?-Because we sometimes thought of trying another place. + +9913. Why did you not take your money for the winter fishing and +buy your provisions at another place if you thought you could get +them better?-Our earnings from it were very small; and for all +the money we had to get, it was not worth while to take it from +Spence & Co.'s shop and go to any other place with it, even +although we might have got our goods it little cheaper. I think all +my winter fishing only came to about 30s. + +9914. How far do you live from the company's shop?-Nearly two +miles. + +9915. Is Johnston's shop nearer to you?-Very little. + +9916. Is there any other shop nearer?-No. + +9917. Have you ever been asked to fish for any other person than +Spence & Co. since they began business?-No. + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, MAGNUS HENDERSON, +examined. + +9918. You are a proprietor near Haroldswick?-Yes, a small +proprietor. + +9919. You have been resident in Unst all your life?-Yes. + +9920. You were at one time engaged in the fishing yourself, and +you know the system that is practised here?-Yes, so far. + +9921. I presume the system of annual settlements has been one of +long continuance here?-Yes. + +9922. The fishermen have also for a long time combined the +calling of farming with that of fishing?-Yes. + +9923. They fish for about four months in the year, and are engaged +on their farms for the rest of the time?-Yes. + +9924. How has the rent been usually paid to the landlord during +the last twenty or thirty years?-Very often the tenants have fished +for the landlord; and of course at the end of the year, when their +accounts were made up, the rent was taken into account along with +other matters. + +9925. When they did not fish for their landlord, has there been +any arrangement between the landlord and the fish-merchant +for the payment of the rent?-Yes. In some cases, I suppose, the +fish-curers are bound to pay the rent to the landlord for the tenants +who fish for them. + +9926. Are you aware whether there has been a written arrangement +of that kind between the landlord and the fish-merchants?-I am +not aware of that. + +[Page 240] + +9927. Of course, when the fish-merchant happens to be the +tacksman, that is it different case?-It is. + +9928. But where the fish-merchant is not the tacksman, is it the +practice that he generally settles with the landlord for the rent?-I +think so, or he becomes accountable to the landlord for the amount +of the rent. + +9929. Do you know whether the rent has been paid by means of +lines handed to the fishermen or tenants, or whether the merchant +just hands a cheque to the landlord for the amount of rent due by +all the fishermen?-I am not prepared to answer that. + +9930. Has it been it universal practice in Unst, or anything like a +universal practice, for fishermen to deal at the shops kept by the +landlord or merchant for whom they fished?-That has generally +been the practice. + +9931. Is there any understanding that they shall go to that shop for +their supplies?-There is such an understanding, but they are not +compelled to do so. Of course if a man is in debt, and has no +means with which to go to another shop, he is very thankful to get +his supplies from the merchant, and he has to get them on credit. + +9932. And when he gets them on credit, the merchant is safe to get +paid by the fish if the men deliver their fish to him?-He gives +them credit, and he must take his chance of being paid when the +fish are delivered. + +9933. I suppose a fisherman here does not wish very often to +change his residence and his place of fishing?-Not very often. + +9934. But if he did happen to do so would not the fact of him +having an account with the merchant in the place prevent him +from shifting his quarters?-I don't know that it would. + +9935. He might have an account standing against him here, and +would he not be bound to pay it?-Yes. He ought to pay it before +he shifted to another employer. + +9936. And the merchant might raise an action against him if he +were to remove?-Yes, and if he could not pay his debt. + +9937. Is that it thing of frequent occurrence?-No. + +9938. Do you think that men are prevented from shifting to other +places, by the fact that they are in debt?-I don't know that they +are. I have not known any case of that within my own experience. + +9939. Have you known cases where a man wanted to engage with +another merchant in the island, or in the neighbouring islands, and +who was unable to do so in consequence of being in debt to his +former employer?-No such case has come under my notice. + +9940. Do you know whether it is usual, when a man does engage +with a new employer in that way, that the new employer takes over +and becomes responsible for any debt that has been standing in the +former employer's books?-They very often do that, but I don't +know if it is a general rule. + +9941. Have you known cases of that sort occurring?-Yes. + +9942. Pretty often?-Not very often, but I have known of some. + +9943. Is that done at the request of the fishermen, or is it an +arrangement between the merchants?-I should think it was +arranged partly with the fishermen and partly with the merchants. + +9944. You think the fisherman has no objection to it?-No. + +9945. Do you think the condition and the character of the +fishermen in this district would be improved if cash payments +were the rule instead of these long settlements?-I could not say. I +have no doubt some would manage their affairs better if there +were cash payments, but some would manage them worse. There +are differences in the character of the men here, as everywhere +else. + +9946. Do you not think that relying on the merchant for supplies if +a bad season comes, makes these fishermen a little more careless +in running up accounts?-In [som]e cases it does. + +9947. They feel that the merchant is anxious to employ them, and +that if a bad season comes, and their debt is not beyond all bounds, +they are safe to get supplies for the season?-Yes; perhaps some +of them look too much to that. + +9948. Is it a common complaint that the fishermen do not know +the price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season?- +Yes, they do not generally make any arrangement for the price +before then. + +9949. Do you think that is a reasonable complaint?-I don't know. +I think that if the thing is conducted on just principles it is a good +thing for both parties, because the fishermen have the same chance +of being, benefited by a rising market as the merchant; but it been +a general thing to make no arrangement as to price until the fish +are sold. + +9950. Have you known any cases in which the price has been fixed +at the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that I have known +any particular case of that kind. + +9951. Do you think the fishermen would agree to an arrangement +fixing the price at the beginning of the season?-I think some of +them would; but perhaps some of them would rather allow it to +continue in the old way. + +9952. Do you think they would not like to fish for so much weekly +wages, and so much additional at the end of the season according +to the market price?-I don't think they would. I think they would +be better satisfied to be paid in proportion to the amount of fish +they catch. + +9953. Would it be possible to pay them in proportion to the +amount of fish they catch, and also to pay them at shorter times?- +It would be possible enough to do it, if they came to an agreement +as to the price per cwt. for green fish. If that were done, it would +be at the option of the fish-curers and the fishermen to make an +arrangement for paying at shorter periods. + +9954. If they got their money in hand in that way, do you not think +that would lead them to be more independent than they are at +present?-It ought to do. + +9955. Don't you think the settlement with the fishermen is delayed +too long after the fishing season is over?-I have no doubt it is +delayed long enough; but perhaps sometimes it is a long time +before the merchants get paid for their fish, and that may prevent +them from making the settlement earlier. + +9956. Do you mean that the settlement is delayed until the +merchant realizes the price of his fish?-I understand that is +very often the case. + +9957. So that, in that view, the merchant is really to some +extent trading on the fishermen's capital?-Yes, while it is in +his possession; but very often he has not a long time of it, because +I understand he generally sells his fish on credit, and it is some +time before he is paid. + +9958. But a man who sells upon credit in that way requires some +capital to enable him to carry on his business?-Yes. + +9959. And in this case it is really the fishermen's capital that is +being traded upon; that is to say, the fisherman has not received +payment for his fish, and that money which he ought to have +received for his fish is in the hands of the merchant?-But very +often a fisherman has taken up the amount of his fishing before the +settlement. + +9960. He may have done so in goods?-Yes. + +9961. Is that the case with most of them?-It is the case with a +good many, and some of them perhaps have overdrawn their +account. + +9962. Then in that case the merchant is really advancing the price +of the fish in goods beforehand?-Yes. + +9963. Would it not be as easy for the merchant, and better for the +fishermen to make the same advance to them in the course of the +season in cash?-I suppose so. + +9964. Only the merchant has a profit on the goods under the +present system?-Of course he has. + +9965. And in that case the merchant gets his upon the goods, but +the fisherman gets no interest on [Page 241] the money which he +lies out of until settlement?-Of course not. + +9966. Therefore the merchant has the benefit both of the interest +on the fishermen's capital in his hand, and, in addition to that, the +profit upon the goods furnished to the fishermen?-Yes. + +9967. And besides that, he is safe not to lose upon the +transactions of the year, not having the price fixed until his +sales are realized?-Yes. The only chance by which a merchant +sometimes loses is, that he advances a man further than the man's +earnings can meet. + +9968. But he can do that or not, as he pleases?-Of course; but +there are sometimes cases where the fisherman requires a certain +amount of supplies. He cannot do without them, and if the fishing +is short then he is not able to meet them. + +9969. Does it not strike you as being rather a one-sided +transaction, the fisherman gets no interest on his capital, +which is in the merchant's hands in the shape of the price +of his fish?-It is not very long there. + +9970. It is there for four or five months, and in the meantime the +merchant is making a profit on the goods?-If the merchant could +turn over the fish when he gets them he might be able to pay the +men at once, but there is generally a long time between the time +when the fisherman delivers his fish and when they are brought to +market and the money paid. The fish take a long time to cure, and +the summer is often done before much of the fish can be sent to +market. Then the merchant generally sells at two or three months' +credit to the buyer, and it is that time before he can realize his +money. + +9971. Do you know whether the merchants in Unst are in the habit +of dealing much in stock?-I don't know; there is generally a sale +once a year for the cattle, and any one who wishes to go to the sale +is at liberty to go. If any one wishes to dispose of his stock +privately to any one else, he is quite at liberty to do so. + +9972. Who are the largest purchasers at the sales?-I cannot say, +for I have not been always there. + +9973. Who conducts them?-An auctioneer from Lerwick, Mr. +Henry. + +9974. Do you think a ready-money system would be any +improvement as regards the fishermen?-I think it would. +In fact a ready-money system in anything would be an +improvement over barter: at least it ought to be, but whether +it would or not I cannot say. + +9975. Do you think that, in point of fact, the present system is one +of barter?-Yes. + +9976. I suppose very little money passes into the hands of the +fishermen in the course of the year?-There is sometimes a good +deal. If a fisherman has money to get he always gets it, so far as I +am aware. + +9977. That is to say, if he has a balance at the end of the year he +will get that?-Yes; and I presume that if a man has not a balance +he cannot well ask for anything. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, +examined. + +9978. You are one of the partners of the firm of Spence & Co., and +you have been so since the formation of the company in 1868?- +Yes. + +9979. Formerly you carried on business in your own name?-Yes, +in company with Messrs. Hay & Co. of Lerwick, at Uyea Sound. + +9980. Was that a separate partnership from Messrs. Hay & Co.?- +Yes. I was manager there, and had a share of the business. It was +entirely distinct from their Lerwick business. + +9981. In 1868 you entered into partnership with some other +gentlemen who had been carrying on a similar business in the +island of Unst?-Yes. + +9982. And at that time, I understand, you took a lease from Major +Cameron of all his property in the island?-Almost the whole of it. +There was some of it on lease before, which we don't have. + +9983. You have all his property, exclusive of the large farms held +on lease before?-Yes. We had two or three small farms let to us +on lease as well. + +9984. Was that arrangement with Major Cameron embodied in a +written lease?-Yes. + +9985. Have you got it here?-No. We have a copy of it at +Baltasound. + +9986. By the terms of that lease, I understand there was no +obligation upon the tenants to fish for your firm?-No. + +9987. And it was intimated to them at the time that they were at +perfect liberty to deliver their fish to any person?-I don't know if +it was intimated to them specially at the time; but I think Mr. +Walker told them so at one time when we wished him to meet the +tenants both in the north and south end of the island. + +9988. What was the occasion of that meeting?-Just to explain to +them the nature of the improvements, and the connection between +us as the tenants and them as the sub-tenants. + +9989. The tenants under that lease pay their rents to you +directly?-Yes. + +9990. And they have no concern with the proprietor?-None. + +9991. You are responsible for the rent stipulated by you to be +paid?-Yes; for rent, poor-rates, and taxes affecting the tenant. + +9992. It is part of your arrangement with the landlord that you +shall superintend, and endeavour to get the tenants to carry out +certain improvements upon the estate?-Yes; we are bound under +the lease to carry out certain improvements. + +9993. And a division of the lands has also taken place under that +arrangement?-Yes. + +9994. Have you proceeded with these improvements to a +considerable extent?-Yes. We have got on remarkably well +with them; better than I expected when we first took it on. It +has been a very uphill job. + +9995. Do you find that that improved system of farming is +compatible with the men continuing the occupation of +fishermen?-I think it is, on the small farms, because the +fisherman has a very great deal of spare time in winter, which +in former times he did not profitably employ, and he can do it +now on his farm to great advantage. + +9996. Do you think it would not be possible in Shetland for the +men to follow the occupation of fishermen all the year round?-I +have given that subject most earnest thought. At one time I +thought it might, but latterly I have come to the conclusion that it +is not possible. In the first place, we have no fresh fish market +here, and it is impossible to get the fish into the south market in a +fresh state when they would command a high price. Then, in the +winter time the weather is so broken, and the seas round this coast +so boisterous, that it is almost impossible to go to the deep sea in +boats; and the fish that are caught near the shores in the sounds +and bays are in such limited quantity that they would not be nearly +sufficient to meet the man's daily wants. From the farm, however, +he has sufficient potatoes and milk for his family; and even on the +smallest farms he has, I should say, six months meal on the +average. + +9997. But if the fishermen were supplied with a different kind of +boats, such as are used in other parts of Scotland, say of 32 feet +keel, such as are used at Wick, could they not go to sea in +winter?-I am afraid our fishermen would not take very kindly to +these boats. + +9998. Perhaps not at first, but would they not do so after a certain +period of apprenticeship?-I think I would back six of our men +against six of the Wick men in their respective boats, and I would +expect our men to come on shore when the Wick men would be +drowned. I think the Wick boats are much too heavy in a sea, and +they are much more in danger of filling than our light skiffs are. I +remember on one occasion, on the north of Unst, when some of +our boats were out, and a gentleman's yacht was near them +dredging shells, he thought they could never come ashore, and +kindly ran down among them, thinking to render the assistance +[Page 242] but when he reached them he found they were far drier +than he was. He came in with some of his bulwarks washed away, +while they got safe ashore. + +9999. Don't you think the weather is just as severe where these +Wick and Buckie boats fish as it is in this quarter?-I believe it is +as severe, but I don't know if the tides and currents are as rapid +and strong, because they have a longer stretch of coast. Off any +land end, the current is very strong and the sea runs very high, and +I think that nearly three-fourths of all the accidents that have +occurred in Shetland have occurred in crossing these springs of +tide,-strong currents going right against the wind, just inland, as +off the point of Unst, or the point of Sumburgh. It is not on the +ocean that our boats would be lost, but in taking the land and +crossing the tides near headlands. + +10,000. If it were not for these dangerous tide-ways, would it be +possible for the men to go off to the haaf in winter if they had +proper boats for the purpose?-They could go off a certain +distance, but the day is very short here, and I don't think they +would have much chance with the long lines in a day of about +eight hours. + +10,001. Has any attempt been made to introduce an extensive +system of winter fishing here?-I don't think any attempt has ever +been made, except in the spring on the west side at Scalloway and +east at Fetlar, where there are spawning beds apparently for the +ling. They come nearer into the land there in March and April, +and some attempts have been made at these places with our +ordinary boats. + +10,002. But these are partial attempts, and have not been +continued?-They are conducted every year, but some years +they are very unsuccessful. + +10,003. In settling with your fishermen, I understand you settle +with them at the different stations, at Uyea Sound, Baltasound, +and Haroldswick, quite separately?-At Uyea Sound the +settlements are quite distinct; at Baltasound and Haroldswick +they are combined. Some crews are settled for at Haroldswick, +but there is only one set of books at Baltasound. + +10,004. Can you give me a general idea from recollection, to what +extent your fishermen are settled with in goods in the course of the +year? Will it be to the extent of one-fourth or one half of their +earnings?-Some men may take out not one-fourth, some may +take one-fourth, some a half, and some more than the whole. + +10,005. Have you ever thought of striking an average?-I have +looked into my cash books several times in past years, and when +I have summed up the amount of green fish received at the price +agreed on and paid, I found that, as a general rule, at settling time +I paid in cash, either in rent, which is cash, or cash given into the +hands of the fishermen, fully two-thirds of the entire amount of +fish coming into my hands. + +10,006. Do you think it would be possible to introduce any +system by which the settlement should not be made at such long +intervals?-I have considered the matter seriously since the Truck +Commission was first spoken about, and I have come to the settled +conviction that it would be very much for the curer to pay monthly +in cash. + +10,007. Would that payment be according to the quantity of fish +delivered, or by way of wages, or partially both?-There are two +reasons why I think wages would not do. In the first place, the +fishermen would not like to take wages, because if they make a +good fishing they would not get so much as they do now; and, in +the second place, I am sorry to say that with the greater part of +them, if they got wages they would not fish half so much. + +10,008. Then what system would you suggest?-I think the right +system is just to fix a price at the beginning of the year of so much +per cwt. for green fish, and pay it monthly or fortnightly in cash as +may be agreed upon. + +10,009. Do you think it likely from your experience, that the +fishermen would agree to that?-Two years ago in North Yell, +when I settled with the fishermen there, I urged the men to take +cash payments, because we had no store there, and it was an +inconvenience for us to send goods. We had to employ a man +and pay him, which cost us something; but I found that they all +declined my proposal. In the same year, 1870, I tried to engage +our fishermen in the south of Unst and in Yell at a fixed price, and +I did so. Every fisherman who went out in the south end of Unst +and Yell that year was engaged at 7s, per cwt. I made that bargain +in December in writing; but when settling time came we could +afford to pay them 7s. 3d., and I did so, according to the previous +practice. I might have pocketed £30 by that transaction, but if I +had done so the fishermen would have thought I had treated them +dishonestly. + +10,010. Were they going to grumble?-I have no doubt some of +them would have grumbled if they had not got the additional price. +I would not say that all of them would have grumbled, because +there are some of our fishermen who are very intelligent and very +reasonable men, and who would have understood the thing, and +said that a bargain was a bargain. + +10,011. Did you pay down the 7s. 3d. in consequence of any +representation made by them?-No; I did it quite spontaneously. + +10,012. Then it was you who did not stick to the bargain?-It was; +I improved the bargain for them. + +10,013. Suppose it had been the other way, what would have taken +place?-I would not have asked the fishermen to agree to take a +less price. No doubt there are fishermen who have been in my +employ for many years, who, if they knew I was losing by the fish, +would not have asked the money; but others would take all they +could get, whether it paid me or not. + +10,014. But, upon the whole, you think that if that system were +introduced by a large firm, there is reasonable prospect of it being +carried out?-So far as the fish-curer is concerned, there would be +a certain profit to him. + +10,015. But do you think it would be practicable so far as both +fishermen and fish-curer are concerned?-I think it would +pauperize a number of the fishermen because there are a great +number of them in debt, and in the transition from the one system +to the other they would require to pay up their debts, so far as their +means would go, and their dealings would be less. + +10,016. Do you think the fishermen under that new system would +not be able to get credit to a certain extent?-I don't see how some +of them could. For instance, take the year 1869. In 1868 the +fishings were almost a failure. Our total catch in Unst and Yell +amounted £1607, which could not average much over £4, 10s. to +each fisherman. That year we imported meal and flour to the +amount of £1824, cost price per invoice; we paid in cash for rents +to Major Cameron, Mr. Edmonstone, Lord Zetland, and others, +£1600; and we expended on fishing-boats and fish-curing +materials £780,-being a gross amount of outlay of £4223 +against the fishing, the return for which, as said, was only £1607. + +10,017. Does that return apply to your establishment at Uyea +Sound only?-It applies to our entire business in Unst and Yell. + +10,018. Besides £1607 from fish, have you any idea what income +the fishermen would receive that year from other sources, such as +for sales of stock?-Yes. We can produce the rolls of cattle sales, +which show what cattle were sold in the spring; and we would +have a good idea what amount of fat cattle were sold in the rest of +the year. + +10,019. In whose custody are these sale rolls?-We have them; +we conduct the sales. Then, in the year 1869 the crops were lost, +which made 1870 a very trying year on this island, and more +especially to Spence & Co. We imported that year about £2300 +worth of meal and oatseed, and £173 of potatoes; and we paid the +same amount of cash in rents. + +10,020. Were these importations distributed among the fishermen +and others at your different shops in the island?-Yes, among the +fishermen; but we had to supply many who were not fishermen, or +see them starving around us. + +[Page 243] + +10,021. That importation of meal, and the sale of it on credit, +would, I presume, leave the bulk of the fishermen considerably +in debt?-That year it would; except those who had saved some +money. + +10,022. But with those who were in debt, that further credit would +have the effect of leaving them much more in debt than they were +before?-Of course; very much more. + +10,023. Is that now in the course of being paid off?-Yes; it is +coming back to us very fast, in consequence of more successful +fishings and better crops. + +10,024. Do you not consider that the necessity under which you +lay of importing the meal, and advancing it upon credit to the +fishermen, was the result of the system, which has been prevailing +here, of long settlements, and the undue amount of credit which +has been allowed to the men?-I have here a letter which I wrote +in 1860, and which represents my views on that subject, and I +may as well read an extract from it 'If we don't give unlimited +advances, we are told the fishermen will be taken from us. I have +now been nearly twelve months in this place (that was after I came +first to Uyea), and have closely watched the system pursued by +proprietors and others, and certainly agree with you that it is it bad +one; but I know I have no right to make any remarks or trouble +you with my views on that subject, further than to state that I +cannot see any good that will result from burdening the tenants +with debt to the fish-curers. It has been my desire, ever since I +knew anything about Shetland tenantry, to see them raised in +the social scale, and made thoroughly independent, both of +proprietors, fish-curers, and others, and I have felt deeply +interested in the -- properties, no doubt from being more +in contact with them; but when the poor among them are in +terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by forced advances to +different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more offered to any +fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is not calculated +to raise any tenant in self-respect.' + +10,025. You speak in that letter of 'forced advances:' what were +these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor's ground +officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant +that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only £2 or +£3 to get, and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not +go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from +me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent. +That looked very like forced advances. + +10,026. That, however, was in 1860?-Yes. + +10,027. Was that a common practice in those times?-I believe +that 13 years ago truck existed ten times as much as it does now. + +10,028. But in 1860 was it a common thing for a proprietor's +ground officer to threaten to remove a tenant unless he could get +his rent from the fish-curer?-Yes; to threaten to remove him +from the ground unless he could pay his rent, or to move him +from a fish-curer who would not give him an advance for that +purpose, to some other fish-curer who would do so. + +10,029. Have you known instances of fishermen who were treated +in that way?-Yes. I was referring to cases of that kind when I +was writing that letter. It was my own experience at the time +when I was at Uyea Sound as a fish-curer trying to engage any +men who came to me. Many came to me and fell into debt, +because I found that many of them required more from the shop +than their fishing amounted to; and then I advanced rent after +rent, until I saw that I was advancing to my own ruin. + +10,030. After advancing rent in that way, have you been informed +that they were to be transferred to another fish-curer unless their +rent was still advanced by you?-Yes; in more cases than one. + +10,031. Were you so informed by the landlord, or by his factor?- +It was generally by the tenant himself, when he came seeking the +money. + +10,032. Were you ever informed of it by the landlord or any one +representing him?-No. + +10,033. Had you any reason to believe the story which the +fishermen told you?-Yes. I believed them, because I knew of +the men being taken away sometimes. + +10,034. Was that after they had made such statements to you, and +although they were in your debt?-Yes. + +10,035. Were you able in these cases to make any arrangement +with the new employer to pay up their debt?-In some cases we +did that, but in other cases we did not; oftener we made no +arrangement. + +10,036. Why did you not try to secure your debt by arrestment?- +Because the proprietor's right of hypothec would cover the man's +whole effects. + +10,037. But you might have arrested the money in the hands of the +new employer?-He might probably have advanced more than the +man might catch in the season before he commenced; so that there +was nothing to arrest. + +10,038. Did you never try to secure your debt in that way?-I have +tried it, but have been unsuccessful. + +10,039. Have you, within the last 12 years, met with cases of that +sort, in which the proprietor endeavoured to coerce you to pay his +rent?-Yes. I have had cases where the tenants came asking me +for money, and I told them I could not advance them any further. +They would then go away, and come back and tell me that the +proprietor's agent or ground officer had informed them that they +must get their rent, and that must pay it; and that if I did not do +that, they would not be allowed to fish for me. + +10,040. Did that system continue until 1868?-No; it prevailed +principally under the ground officership of Mr. Sinclair, who acted +for Mrs. Mouat, in Unst. + +10,041. You did not find that system in existence on other +estates?-I only came in contact with the tenants on that property. + +10,042. Did no other tenants fish for you up till 1868?-No; +except Lord Zetland's. + +10,043. Have you been obliged in that way to pay rents for Lord +Zetland's tenants also?-No, not for Lord Zetland's. + +10,044. Only for the late Mrs. Mouat's?-Yes. + +10,045. Did that practice cease when the estates passed to Major +Cameron?-They only passed to him at her death last year. + +10,046. That was after you had got your lease of the estates?- +Yes. + +10,047. And since you have had the lease, of course, your control +over the tenants has been direct?-Yes. + +10,048. And no forced advance of that kind could be required?- +No; but, of course whatever the tenant might earn at the fishing, +we had still to pay his rent. That was one advance we could not +get clear of. The rent was due, and we were responsible for it to +the proprietor. The great drawback in the trade is the debts, and +the advances given that are never repaid. + +10,049. Is it not in your own power to stop your advances +whenever you think the debtor is unable to pay more?-No +doubt; but suppose a family in the month of January who have +no food in the house: there are eight children and a wife, and an +aged mother, perhaps, we stop giving them supplies of meal, you +can easily guess the consequences. + +10,050. If you were to stop their supplies, might they not obtain +them by having recourse to some other merchant or fish-curer?- +Yes; but it would be upon the same principle-upon credit again. + +10,051. And you would lose your debt?-We would lose our debt, +and credit, and everything. + +10,052. How would you provide for the transition from that state +of things to a system in which the payments would be monthly?- +I think it would take greater penetration and wisdom than I can +boast of, to solve such a ticklish point of political economy. I am +afraid pauperism would first increase. + +10,053. But would it not be better for the men in the long run?-I +don't think it would be any better for the man who has plenty of +money now, and a good many of them have that. Such a man +comes and buys from us if he wants; and if he does not want, he +goes where he likes. If he has got a cow to sell, and we can give +him as good a price as another, he will perhaps sell to but he is +quite his own master as to where he will [Page 244] sell. But a +man with a very small amount of stock, and no credit, and no cash, +and no crop after February, would be in a very difficult position +until the month of June, when he began to fish. + +10,054. Can men during these eight months not get some sort of +wages for labour?-The only kind of work in Unst is at the +chromate ore quarries; but they can only employ a very limited +number of men compared with the population, and those who +work in the quarries in winter generally work in summer also. +Their men are usually employed for the whole year and there is +no room for the fishermen to be employed there. + +10,055. Have you any interest in these chromate quarries?-No. + +10,056. Is it not your opinion, from the facts you have stated, that +the population of the island is rather greater than it is able to +maintain?-I think that if the inhabitants of the island were to +work the ground they have, they could take food enough out of +Unst to feed the 2800 or 3000 inhabitants that are in it. + +10,057. Would it not be one effect of the improvements which are +being carried out under the management of your firm, to enable +the parties to tide over the transition period between the present +credit system and the cash system?-Perhaps I may be too +sanguine; but my hope is, that if we succeed in carrying through +the improvements which have been begun, in six years' time every +tenant on the island will be independent of every man, and then he +may make his bargain as he likes. + +10,058. Do you calculate that it will take six years to wipe out +existing debts?-Yes; and that will require renewed exertion on +the part of every man. I don't think the idleness of the winter +will do it; I think we all want a stimulus. + +10,059. Does it not occur to you that this want of energy arises in a +great degree from the feeling which the people have, that at the +worst they will get credit from the merchant?-There is no doubt +that has a very bad effect upon them. + +10,060. So that the removal of that sense of dependence might be +the very stimulus you desiderate?-It might. + +10,061. And your own system of monthly payments would +probably be the very best way to apply that stimulus?-I believe +it would; and I believe that with average years of fishing, if we +could employ the population for six months in winter at profitable +wages, we might get into the money system more easily. + +10,062. In what way would you suggest employing them for six +months at profitable wages?-I don't know; I am afraid the winter +fishing cannot be improved. + +10,063. And there is no other kind of employment in which wages +can be given?-No; unless Government would improve the fishing +harbours-that would be a very good way or by giving us more +roads. This system, which has obtained so long in Shetland, seems +to be natural to the soil; for when the roads were made, the +whole of them, except the one in Unst, were made under the +superintendence of a captain of the Navy and a captain of the +Royal Engineers; and we could not do without credit-I suppose +you would call it truck-although the cash was being paid every +month. We had to appoint a contractor in every district to supply +the workers with meal, and the officer in charge of the roads +granted checks to the men. + +10,064. Was not that done in consequence of the absence of shops +in the district?-No; they had to go to the shop in the district and +get the meal. In every district where the works were being carried +on we had a contractor engaged to supply meal to the workers. + +10,065. Do you mean a man keeping a shop?-We selected a man +in the district, and the officer in charge passed orders on him for +meal to A, B, or C, and he deducted that from their wages every +month, and paid them the balance in cash. + +10,066. How long is it since these roads were made?-In 1849 and +1850. It was after the failure of the potatoes in 1847. + +10,067. Were the funds for making these roads obtained from +Government?-No; Government only gave the superintendence +of a staff of sappers and miners. + +10,068. Was the work done by local assessment?-No; the +money was raised for relieving the destitution in Shetland by the +Edinburgh Board, of which Mr Skene was secretary. + +10,069. Then that was really an enterprise undertaken for the relief +of a temporary destitution?-Yes. + +10,070. And the meal was distributed by way of relieving pressing +want?-Yes. + +10,071. You said you were in possession of the sale rolls of all the +sales for some years back?-Almost them all. It was I who first +started sales in the North Isles. I began them at Cullivoe when I +was there. There never had been any sales until I got the lease of +the property from Major Cameron. + +10,072. Could you give me a note of the principal purchasers at the +sales during the last two or three years in Unst?-I could; but the +principal purchasers at the sales for the last two or three years have +been ourselves and Mr. Jeffrey, a farmer and cattle-dealer. At the +last sales, I suppose, we bought two-thirds of the whole cattle sold. + +10,073. Were these generally purchased in order to liquidate an +existing debt?-No; a great many of the men-those who have +most cattle to sell-have always most cash to get. That has been +my experience. A poor man is generally poor every way, and he +generally gets into the worst fishing-boat. + +10,074. How does that happen?-He has begun poor, and been +unfortunate, and, some may think, unlucky. + +10,075. But why should he get into the worst fishing-boat?-There +is no assignable reason for that, but very often you will find that +certain men who have been unfortunate just keep together. + +10,076. But the fact of a man being unfortunate perhaps arises +from him not being so good a fisherman or so good a man of +business as the others?-Yes. He just gets into association with +men of the same class as himself, on the principle of birds of a +feather. + +10,077. But, I presume, you very often do purchase either privately +or at these sales, cattle from some of your debtors, and enter +them in your account?-Very often. A great many of the cattle +purchased at the sales are not paid for until I settle with the men in +my district. Some men-not tenants of ours at all, but tenants of +Lord Zetland-have been asked to come and take the money after +the sale, but have said, 'I am not at all requiring it just now; I only +want my money once a year.' They have said that to me more than +once this year, so that I could not get clear of the money for the +cattle which I bought. + +10,078. Were these men running an account with you?-Very +little. They come perhaps once a month and see how the account +stands, and get perhaps a pound or so in cash. + +10,079. A statement was made in Edinburgh to the effect that +when a merchant bought a beast from some of his debtors in that +way, he had really the fixing of the price himself?-That is a very +serious mistake; I must say that twenty years ago that was the case, +but I think the first break to that in the North Isles was, as I +have already said, my commencing a cattle sale. The very year +I commenced the cattle sale, as I can prove by documentary +evidence, the price of cattle rose fully one-fourth, and ever since +there has been an auctioneer appointed to conduct the sales in Yell +and in Unst. I have invariably told every tenant in my district, that +if they could do any better with any produce-such as butter, eggs, +cows, or fish-than by bringing them to me, they were quite at +liberty to do so. I said that to them over and over again. + +10,080. Why did you tell them that so often?-Because I had an +opportunity of telling it to them every time they came with their +produce and asked the price. A man might come with a jar of +butter one day, another jar a few days afterwards. + +10,081. But did they not know without being told, that they might +go where they thought they could get a better price?-I thought +they did; but they might [Page 245] think that as we stood in the +relation to them of landlord, as well as fish-curer and merchant, +we might force them in some way; and I wanted to do away with +that impression, both as to the fishing and as to the purchase of +produce, because, whatever control we might have had the power +of exercising over them, we did not wish it to be exercised, or to +have it felt that there was such a power in our hands. + +10,082. In point of fact, I suppose that by far the greater number of +the fishermen in this island sell their fish to you?-Yes. There is +only one boat that does not fish for us-Mr. John Johnston's. + +10,083. Are there not some of the crews at the winter fishing who +do not fish for you?-I cannot speak so well about the winter +fishing, because it is carried on in small boats, and the men take +their fish anywhere they like. + +10,084. Do they sell their winter fish to you for ready money?- +Yes, for ready money, or for goods if they want them, whichever +they like. We buy in North Yell just now all winter, and pay the +cash just as the men want it, or give them goods. + +10,085. There is no Faroe fishing carried on by your firm?-No. + +10,086. About how many tenants are there altogether on the estate +that you hold in tack on this island?-I think about 150. + +10,087. About how many of them are engaged in fishing in your +boats?-The whole of them, I think, who do fish for us. + +10,088. Do you buy a large quantity of kelp?-I buy almost all that +is bought in the islands. + +10,089. How many women are employed at that?-They vary very +much, because they just do it as they like themselves. + +10,090. Is there a separate rent charged in your lease for the kelp +shores?-It is included in the whole rent. + +10,091. Do you pay a higher rent to Major Cameron under your +lease than you receive from the fishermen?-Yes; we pay about +£200 more than we receive, but that is for the scattalds and kelp +shores, which the tenants have the use of on certain conditions. + +10,092. Do you think the scattalds and kelp shores alone are +worth that increased rent?-I have often wished that we had never +entered into that lease, but when we have entered into it we must +try to make the best of it. + +10,093. Then you think the scattalds and kelp shores are not worth +so much?-They might be worth that if they were taken from the +tenants and developed into sheep-walks, but they are not worth +that to us. + +10,094. Have you not the power of making them into sheep-walks +for yourselves?-Yes; but we have not done so. + +10,095. The tenants still have the use of them upon certain +conditions?-Yes. + +10,096. Do they largely avail themselves of that right upon making +that payment?-I am sorry to say that we lose about £100 a year by +them. + +10,097. Do you mean that you do not collect £100 a year which +you are entitled to?-I say that when we have charged every tenant +under us the full amount of scattald charges, we are £100 short of +the rent under the lease, as our books will show. + +10,098. Is that loss upon the rents and scattald charges, or upon the +scattald charges only?-It is upon the rents and the scattald united. +In short, we charge the tenants £1000 for rent and scattald charges, +and we pay Major Cameron £1100. + +10,099. The kelp is gathered by the women upon these shores and +burned by them, and bought by you at so much per ton?-Yes. + +10,100. Is the settlement for the kelp generally managed by way +of accounts in your books in each woman's name?-No. They +generally settled with at the time when they bring the kelp. We +may have supplied them with meal or other necessaries while they +were preparing the kelp, but as soon as they have prepared the +settlement is at once made. + +10,101. These supplies are entered in a ledger account under the +woman's name during the time the kelp is being prepared?-Yes. + +10,102. And then the amount of kelp is entered at the close of that +account as settling it?-Yes. + +10,103. How many women are so employed?-Perhaps about 120 +or 130. I think we have made about 40 tons of kelp from Unst, but +we get a good deal from Yell too I think about 20 tons. + +10,104. Does the number of women you have given include those +in Yell?-No; I think there may be about that number in Unst. + +10,105. What price per cwt. do you pay for the kelp?-It is 4s. this +year. + +10,106. Is it the same price, whether paid in goods or in cash?- +There used to be a practice of giving from 4d. to 6d. less in cash +than in goods. The reason for that was, that the price allowed was +generally the extreme value of the article; but for the last two +years we have got 5s. per ton more for kelp, and we have made no +difference on the price to the women whether it was taken in cash +or in goods. That was the case more especially last year. Almost +all that we got from Yell was paid in cash, and paid at the same +rate of 4s. + +10,107. Did the women take the price in cash or in goods?-They +took it almost all in goods, except those from Yell. They could +only come over at times when they had about a ton or two ready, +and they took back what goods they wanted, and the balance in +cash. + +10,108. How do you arrange with your beach boys?-We have one +man engaged who cures for us by the ton. He finds the hands; we +do not employ them. + +10,109. You do all your curing by contract?-Yes. + +10,110. And you have nothing to do with the payment of the +persons employed at it?-I often pay them when the man who +has the contract gives me an order to pay. He gives them a line +to me to pay them so much and I do so. + +10,111. Is that payment made at the shop at Uyea Sound?-Yes, + +10,112. Is it made in goods or in cash?-It is just as the case may +be. Of course, if the man has taken anything it is deducted; but if +he has not taken anything he gets his cash. + +10,113. Have the people who are employed in the curing got +accounts in your books in their own names?-Yes. + +10,114. Do you mean the men employed under the contractor?- +Yes; they have their own accounts. + +10,115. Do you know how much wages they receive from the +contractor?-Not until he gives me an order at the end of the +season, and then they are paid. They are paid as soon as the +work is over. + +10,116. But during the season they are running an account in your +books and getting supplies?-Yes, but to as limited an extent as +possible. We don't like to give them goods; we rather like to give +them money at the end of the season, because if we are liberal in +that way, they generally overdraw their accounts. + +10,117. But the line you speak of, which you receive from the +contractor, is only given at the end of the season?-Yes. + +10,118. He does not give them lines when they want supplies?- +No. + +10,119. Why does he not pay them himself?-At one time, some +years ago, I used to give the curer cash to pay his men; but I found +I was minus any advances I had given to them in the course of the +season, because they did not come back to square up when they +got their cash, and yet it was necessary for me to give them some +things in order to let the work go on. + +10,120. Could you not leave it to the contractor to make these +advances?-It is quite optional. There is nothing compulsory in +this arrangement at all. + +10,121. The men don't need to come to your shop for the advances +unless they like?-Not at all. I don't want them; I would as soon +pay them in money as goods. + +10,122. And the contractor could do so?-Yes. He does so in +some cases. I suppose those who bring orders to me are those who +want it in that way. Very likely the contractor pays some that I +never see at all. + +[Page 246] + +10,123. Do you suppose that the whole payments he makes are +not made through you?-I don't know that they are. There is no +arrangement to that effect. + +10,124. What is the contract price per ton for curing?-16s., and +we supply the implements and materials, and the beach. That is +just for his work, putting them from the shores to the beach; and +we take them from there to the shipping port. + +10,125. In settling with your fishermen, what allowance do you +make for the cost of curing the fish per ton of dry fish?-We +deduct that from the price we have got for the fish, in estimating +what we are to pay our fishermen. That sum includes expense of +curing, cost of salt and materials, and removing the fish to the port + +where they are to be delivered. + +10,126. What other deductions do you make before fixing the +sum that is to be divided between you and the fishermen?-We +generally make no other deductions. We expect that the £3 should +cover everything but I don't know that it does so now, because +wages are much higher than they used to be. + +10,127. What was the current price paid to fishermen here last +year?-8s. + +10,128. What was the price of dry fish per ton?-The current price +was £23. + +10,129. Deducting £3, that would leave £20: was that the sum +on which you calculated the division between you and the +fishermen?-Yes. + +10,130. How do you calculate the price for the green fish?-We +calculate 21/4 cwt. of green fish for 1 cwt. dry. + +10,131. That would only be 18s. per cwt?-Yes; but we give +skipper's fees, and a great deal of perquisites to the crew, which +will come to another shilling. The men have lines of their own, +and the skipper always gets a fee. + +10,132. Then the 2s. extra is intended to cover that?-Yes, and our +profit. + +10,133. Do you allow yourselves a commission?-Yes; and I think +we require it. The hire we take for the boat never covers the price +of the boat. I may say that, in my experience, boats which +originally cost £20 stand us in £32 when they are worn out, after +we have got credit for all the hires charged on them. There is +therefore a considerable loss on boats. The hire cannot nearly +meet current expenses, much less pay for the original price. + +10,134. How do you mean that the boat stood you in £32?-I give +sails every second year, and a new sail costs about £2, 10s. Then +there is the carpenter's work every year in repairing the boat, and +there are oars and everything to be kept up. Taking these things +into consideration, the result of the debtor and creditor account of +some our boats was that they cost £20 originally, and when worn +out they had cost £32. + +10,135. What was the hire of these boats?-48s. a year-8s. a +man. That was credited to the boat. + +10,136. What is the life of a boat?-It is sometimes only a year. + +10,137. But that is when she is lost?-No; we sometimes build +what appears to be a very good boat, and the carpenter says she is +first-class; but when the fishermen take her to sea they find she is +very bad, and they throw her on our hands, and we cannot use her. + +10,138. Does that often happen?-Very often. + +10,139. Then the hiring of boats is a very unprofitable business?- +It is; indeed I should be very glad if the fishermen would buy their +own boats; and if the Government would assist them in that, it +would be a very good thing. The life of a good boat may be about +twelve years. + +10,140. Is it not an exceptional case where the boat is thrown up at +the end of the year?-No, it is very common at the end of one year +or two years. + +10,141. But when a boat is a good one at first, and pleases the +fishermen, she is calculated to last for twelve years?-Yes, and +she may last a little longer with increased repairs. + +10,142. And the calculation that a boat when worn out costs you +£32 is based upon the supposition that she does last for about that +period?-Yes; but the £32 is perhaps an exceptional case: that was +the highest I ever had in my experience. + +10,143. Is the current price of fish according to which you pay +your men ascertained by communication with other merchants in +Shetland, or is it the actual price, which you get upon your own +sales?-There is generally a communication among the curers as +to what they think should be the price. Every man states his own +opinion freely. + +10,144. And communicates the amount of his own sales to his +neighbours?-I don't know that he communicates his sales, but he +states his idea with regard, to what the price should be. + +10,145. Do you sell mostly in this country, or in Spain?-It is +chiefly ling that we sell, and they go to the west of Scotland and +Ireland. We ship them direct to the Clyde, to merchants in +Glasgow and Greenock. + +10,146. Have you ever shipped any to Spain?-No. + +10,147. Do you know whether the fish shipped there are picked +fish?-I understand they are all picked. + +10,148. Is a higher price obtained for them than for those sold in +this country?-I suppose so; it is chiefly cod that are sent there. + +10,149. The men, I understand, have nothing to with fixing the +current price of fish?-No. + +10,150. Do they sometimes complain that they have not?-I have +offered to the fishermen, not since Spence & Co. commenced, but +I did repeatedly before, to cure for them at 5 per cent., and furnish +everything. + +10,151. Were they to sell the fish themselves?-I was to act as +their salesman, and disclose all to them if they would give me 5 +per cent. + +10,152. But they did not agree to that?-No; they thought the safer +way was to go on as we had been doing. The fish-curers don't +have that love and affection for one another which was described +in the evidence in Edinburgh. There is plenty of opposition among +them. + +10,153. Except at the time when they are fixing the current +price?-I cannot say that there is any better agreement then. I +cannot agree at all with that part of the evidence which was +given before. + +10,154. But you always do agree about that to a certain extent?- +No; we sometimes do not agree, and we have angry disputations +in our letters. We say the price should be a certain thing in our +opinion, and Spence & Co. have not agreed with all the fish-curers +yet, for we give 10s. per 100 cwts. as an encouragement or bounty, +and something to help the men to pay things they have in company +at the station; but none of the other curers have given that, and +they have been very hard upon us about it. We have given 2s. per. +ton more for every ton of green fish we have received than any +other curer in Shetland, so that we don't always agree. + +10,155. Will you give me a note of your fish sales last year, and +the prices?-I will do so privately. [Hands them in.] + +10,156. You have now produced to me the lease between Major +Cameron and your firm for twelve years up till Martinmas 1880: +are all the stipulations about improvements contained in it?-Yes; +they are to be, pointed out specially from year to year, but the +arrangement is, that there is to be so much expended every year +upon improvements. + +10,157. But were the regulations for the tenantry separate from this +lease and issued to them?-No; the rules and regulations for the +sub-tenants are appended to the lease. + +10,158. Were these made known to the tenants?-Yes; they were +given to them in a different form. They are amended rules to those +which were first issued by Mr. Walker. + +10,159. Any tenants not complying with these regulations may +be removed by you?-Yes; they will get their leases unless they +comply with them, and we can remove them at any time. + +10,160. What is the length of the holdings of these who comply +with these regulations?-It is the same as our own lease, twelve +years from 1868. + +10,161. How many of the tenants have adopted these [Page 247] +regulations?-I should say that, to a greater or less extent, they +have all made a fair commencement in the improvements and +rotation of cropping. + +10,162. But you have absolute power to remove them if they do +not comply with that?-We have. The property is absolutely let to +us, and we can absolutely turn them out if they do not comply with +the regulations. The lease is clear enough upon that point. + +10,163. Have you had occasion to exercise that power?-Not in +any case. + +10,164. Have you threatened to do so?-Not so far as is known to +me. + +10,165. There is no obligation on the tenants, under this lease, +either to fish for you or to sell the produce of their farms to your +firm?-No; it is long since I read the lease, but I don't think there +is anything of that sort in it. + +10,166. In point of fact, is there any understanding on the part of +the tenants that they are bound to do so?-No. + +10,167. You have told them that they are under no such +obligation?-Yes. + +10,168. But, in point of fact, most of them do sell their fish to +you?-They do. + +10,169. And, in point of fact, most of them do sell their eggs and +butter to you?-I think the great bulk of them do, but I cannot tell +so well about the butter and eggs. We buy fully as much now at +Uyea Sound as we did in any season before the company +commenced. + +10,170. And a number of the tenants also run accounts for +shop goods with your shops?-Yes; I think most of them do +so. + +10,171. Do you think that having this lease is a facility to +you in carrying on your business?-I rather think that in one +sense it is the reverse, because at first it was so unpopular +among the tenants, in consequence of dividing the farms in the +first instance, and setting them on to work and cultivate and +drain and clear the ground of stones, and to introduce a rotation +of cropping, that it placed us as traders in the island to a great +disadvantage, and created an unhappy feeling between the +tenants and ourselves. I can say that for the last four years, I +have spent about one-thirteenth of my time among them, just +going from tenant to tenant three or four times every year, in the +south parish. + +10,172. Over what portion of the island does this lease extend?-It +includes nearly one-half of the island. I have been compelled in +some cases to use hard measures with the tenants to get them to +alter the crop which they had put in, and to bring the land into +rotation. That looked a very severe thing to them; but we stood +between two fires, as it were. + +10,173. You think it would be profitable for them in the end?-I +have no doubt it will, and a good many of them are seeing that +now. + +10,174. But although this lease does not contain an express +condition that the tenants are to fish for you, it gives you a +power of ejecting them?-Of course it does. + +10,175. And the tenants are aware of that?-Yes. + +10,176. And of course they may feel a little more unwilling to deal +with another party or to fish for him in consequence?-That may +be. I don't know what their private feelings may be, but the lease +gives us it stronger power than that: it reserves the peats, and what +could they do without peats? We have absolute power in that +respect, if we choose to put it in force, but I hope never to see that +done. We can refuse them peats altogether and scattald altogether, +and we can shut them up altogether, but I hope I will never live to +see that day. + +10,177. In short, you can do anything you please with the tenants, +except deprive any one of his holding who complies with these +rules and regulations?-Yes. + +10,178. The only security he has is to comply with them?-Yes. + +10,179. As to the peats and scattalds, he has no security at all?- +None. + +10,180. You spoke of a bounty of 2s. per ton which you allowed +your fishermen at settlement: does that not correspond with the +present which is made at settlement at other places by way of +drinking money?-They say in other places that they give +nothing of that kind, but it would correspond with that. + +10,181. Do you give the men anything besides as a gratuity at +settling time?-No; we give nothing in the way of drink money. +They get what is called a midsummer bottle: that is an old custom, +and it still continues among all the fishermen. + +10,182. Have you had a good deal to do in the hosiery trade?- +Yes, I have bought a good deal of it. + +10,183. I understand you buy a quantity of worsted from the +spinners in Unst and sell it south?-Yes; I generally sell it in +Lerwick. + +10,184. At what rates do you generally buy the worsted?-We +never like to buy anything coarser than we can give 3d. per cut for. + +10,185. The weight of that, I suppose, varies?-The weight of +what we give 3d. per cut for would be about 6 cuts to the ounce. + +10,186. That would be 24s. per lb.?-Yes; but the number of +ounces is not a criterion, because the less the weight the higher +the price. We have given as high as 7d. per cut for worsted, and +that should weigh 14 cuts of 100 threads to the ounce. That +would be 8s. 2d. per ounce, or more than £7 per lb. + +10,187. Is not that a very high price?-Yes; but we would give +cash for any amount of that kind of worsted we could get, or for +worsted at 6d. for 12 cuts to the ounce, but very few can spin that. + It is a very fine thread. + +10,188. Have you known much worsted sold at the rate of £7, 12s. +per lb.?-No, not very much, because there are very few who can +spin it so fine. It is just like a cobweb. + +10,189. What quantity of worsted of that sort would it take to +make a shawl of the ordinary size? About 40 cuts?-That would +be a small shawl. I have put as high as 70 cuts of that fine worsted +into a shawl; but that was a large shawl. The usual size is 25 to 30 +scores, made out of 3d. worsted. + +10,190. The score refers to the size of the shawl?-Yes; twenty +scores is twenty threads or twenty stitches of the needle across +from side to side. + +10,191. Is the size of the shawl generally measured by the score or +by the yard?-It is generally measured by the score when the girl +commences to knit it. + +10,192. Then a shawl of that size would take 40 cuts of that fine +worsted?-No; a 21/4 yard shawl would take 60 cuts of that fine +worsted. + +10,193. The worsted of such a shawl would cost £1, 15s?-Yes. + +10,194. Can you give me any idea what the knitting of that shawl +is generally put in at?-The knitting of shawl of that kind should +be 25s. to 30s. + +10,195. Are these shawls made in Unst?-Yes; I have got a shawl +made in Unst that cost £4, and some that cost £3, and between £3 +and £4. + +10,196. Would the knitting cost as much in Lerwick?-I don't +know. I generally think, as a rule, that the knitter ought to get as +much for her work as the price of the worsted. + +10,197. But it is somewhat less than the price of the worsted in +these fine shawls?-Yes. + +10,198. Suppose a shawl of which the worsted cost you 35s. +and the knitting 25s.-that is £3 altogether: what would that be +invoiced for to the merchant in the south?-Perhaps I am not able +to give very good information upon that point, because I have +always found these shawls to be a part of my stock which it was +very difficult to dispose of. + +10,199. Do you mean the fine shawls?-No. I have generally +got shawls of that sort made upon an order from gentlemen who +happen to come down here, and I usually charge them the cost +of the work and dressing, and so on; but I have found it a very +difficult thing to sell hosiery. + +10,200. Is the 25s. which the knitter gets paid to her in money or in +goods?-Almost always in goods. + +10,201. And you have been calculating now upon the footing that +that price was to be paid in goods?-Yes; but if I got an order for +the shawl, I would not care whether it was to be paid for in goods +or in cash. + +[Page 248] + +10,202. That is because if you had got the order you would receive +a cash payment?-Yes. + +10,203. Whereas, if you were selling it to a merchant, you might +have to take goods from him for the value?-It is not exactly that, +but I might not get it sold at all. My object in dealing in hosiery is +more to oblige my customers than because it is an article on which +make a profit. A great bulk of the shawls which sell for about 30s. +are made from 3d. worsted. That would be 7s. 6d. for the worsted, +and the knitting would be 8s. or 9s. in goods, then there would be +6d. for dressing, and that would be about the cost of an ordinary +shawl. + +10,204. How much would that sell for in the market?-I don't +know. I have tried most of the best hosiers who deal in shawls, +and I always lost them. + +10,205. Do you invoice shawls to Edinburgh?-Yes, pretty often; +but I tried to get out of it because we lost a good deal by it. I +suppose these wholesale buyers in the south do their largest trade +with the merchants in Lerwick, and they don't like to buy from +the country people in case it might operate against their own +interests.* + +*Mr. Sandison afterwards wrote the following letter in +supplement of his evidence:- + +'I much regret you could not make your examination in Unst +more exhaustive. + +'Witnesses were asked the effects of the present system on the +morals of the people. I am of opinion their morals will compare +very favourably with any other county in Scotland; and I will say +for my countrymen, that for intelligence and common sense they +are superior to many of the same class elsewhere. + +'From careful observation and considerable experience, I have +come to think that the increase of small shops acts injuriously on +the poorest of the people, leading to the practice of deceit between +man and wife, mother and child, as well as between class and +class. Many families of the poor and indebted fishermen sell their +farm produce, butter, eggs, etc., and even meal and corn, out of +their own crop, to some of these small shops for trifling luxuries of +no real benefit; and, worst of all, most of these small shops sell +spirits surreptitiously, it is believed, to a greater extent than the +licensed dealer. As a rule, in my experience, the man who sells his +produce in quantity to the large buyer or fish-curer is independent, +and has cash in hand and bank; while the man who dribbles away +his produce through these shops, only giving his summer fish to +the fish-curer, is in debt and poverty. While one man can take up +£4 to £6 for the one article of butter, in cash at settlement, the +other, with as many milch cows, has nothing. The monopoly said +to exist here has not reduced these shops; there are fourteen shops +in Unst. + +'The interests of the small dealer is <only one,-his own>. The +interests of the fish-curer and larger dealer is the people's as much +as his own, he must supply all their necessary wants, pay rents, and +carry them through with food, at least in unsuccessful seasons; +their independence is his gain, their poverty his ruin, by incurring +debts, in many cases never paid. This is bad; but in my opinion it +is not this, nor barter, call it truck if you like, that has kept +Shetland so far behind, but the utter neglect of the soil, and +slovenly farming, for the last 100 years. I don't think 100 acres +have been added to the cultivated ground by tenant crofters, while +in that time the population has increased more than one-third; in +place of adding, I am sorry to say that in many cases there has +been a most destructive system of reducing going on, by delving +down hill for ages until the tops of many fields are wasted to the +rock. I have seen places where considerable extents was lost in +this way; and for draining and clearing out stones, that was +unthought of. For this state of matters, both proprietors and +tenants are to blame. Proprietors, in my opinion, have been far too +careless of their poperty, not heeding how the crofter farmed, if the +rent was paid; and the naturally indolent man reduced more so, by +neglecting to increase and improve his farm during the long +winter, when he could do little else. Then the breeding and rearing +of cattle has been utterly neglected by the small tenants: we have +made a right start with that in this island now. + +'In all my experience I find the best farmer (I speak of the +crofters) is never the worst fisher, and is generally out of debt; +while the bad and slovenly farmer, though an extra good +fisherman, often falls behind, indeed generally so. Of late I +have come to the conclusion that the time spent at the winter +fishing is a loss to the crofter, as I do think he can be more +profitably employed on his farm, at least until he puts it in proper +order. Not to enlarge, I consider the land question a more serious +one than the truck for Shetland. Get our crofter fishermen to feel +and take an interest in the soil they cultivate; induce them to habits +of constant activity on their land, when not fully employed at +fishing; get them, by whatever way, to take a pleasure in rendering +the waste places of their farm productive of food for man and +beast; give them better houses; let them have every reasonable +encouragement from their proprietors, with patient continuous +oversight by those competent to give direction and advice: I would +hope for more from this than all the 'Truck Acts' in the world. + +'In place of putting shackles on the fish-curers, who are trying +to develop that one branch of our industry, they ought to be +encouraged. Much capital is invested in it; and when as much has +been done to develop the land as is being done to develop the deep +sea, I am sure we will require no 'Truck Act.' + +'I would like to say a word on the Rev. Mr. Smith's evidence to +price and quality of the goods sold in Unst, but may take another +time for that: enough to say just now, that he has yet to try +mine.' + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER JOHNSTON, +examined. + +10,206. You are registrar of this parish, and you live at +Balliasta?-Yes. + +10,207. You were formerly a fisherman, and you are acquainted +with the way in which the fishing trade is carried on?-Yes. I was +acquainted with it when I was at the fishing. It is ten years ago +since I left it. + +10,208. When you were a fisherman, was there liberty for every +man to fish to any one he liked to engage with?-Yes. + +10,209. Was there no restriction at all?-No. + +10,210. What estate did you live upon?-On the estate of Buness. + +10,211. No one there was bound to fish for his landlord or +tacksman?-No. When the late Mr. Edmonstone had the fishing +himself, I fished for him. + +10,212. Were you bound to fish for him?-I was willing to fish for +him in preference to any other, because he was my landlord. + +10,213. But were you bound to fish for him?-No, he did not hold +me bound. + +10,214. Might you have engaged to fish for any one else, without +any fear of being turned out of your farm?-I might. + +10,215. Was that generally the case throughout the country?-I +believe it was, so far as I can remember. What it was long before +that I don't know. + +10,216. You are not engaged in fishing now, or in any business?- +No. I have a farm from Mr. Edmonstone. + +10,217. Do you deal at the shop at Haroldswick or Balta Sound?- +I just deal anywhere I find convenient, because I pay in ready +money. + +10,218. You don't keep an account?-No. + +10,219. Do you prefer that way of dealing?-I do. + +10,220. Do you get better bargains in that way?-It may be that +there is not much difference, but still have the privilege of +choosing where I am to deal. + +10,221. Where do you deal in your ready-money transactions?- +Chiefly with Spence & Co. at Balta Sound. + +10,222. What do you pay there for meal?-I am not, in the way of +buying meal. I get it from my own farm. + +10,223. What do you pay there for soft goods?-I have not had any +lately. + +10,224. Do you go to Lerwick for them?-No; but sometimes I +send to Lerwick for some tea and other articles. + +10,225. Why do you not get your tea from Spence & Co?-I get it +sometimes from them, and sometimes from others. + +10,226. Why do you send so far as Lerwick for it?-Because we +might get it a little cheaper there. We can get very good tea at +Lerwick for 2s. 6d. a lb., while the cheapest here is about 3s. or 2s. +8d. + +10,227. Is the 2s. 6d. tea that you get in Lerwick as good as the 3s. +tea which you get here, or better?-I think it is much about the +same. + +10,228. Is there anything else you send to Lerwick for?-No. + +10,229. What else do you get from Spence & Co.?-Any small +thing I require-principally tobacco. I get twist tobacco for 31/2d. +an ounce. + +10,230. What else do you get?-Nothing worth mentioning. + +10,231. Then you buy nothing from Spence & Co. that is worth +mentioning except tea and tobacco?-I sometimes buy a little +sugar. It is fine white sugar at 6d. a lb. I have also bought sugar +from Mr. William Johnston. It was of the same price and quality. +I have never got it from Lerwick. + +[Page 249] + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM GILBERT +MOUAT, examined. + +10,232. You are a partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am. + +10,233. You manage their business at Baltasound along with Mr. +Thomson?-Yes. + +10,234. You were in business on your own account for a good +many years before the formation of that company?-Yes, for +eighteen years at Baltasound. I was not extensively in the fishing +then, but I had a shop. + +10,235. Were you present during the examination of Mr. +Sandison?-Yes. + +10,236. Do you concur generally in what he said?-Yes; I don't +think I could correct or add anything to it, for I think he has given +just such a statement as I would have given myself. + +10,237. Do you entertain the same opinion about the possibility of +an improved mode of conducting business here?-I do. + +10,238. You have arrived at the same conclusion with regard to the +expediency of a monthly pay if it could be introduced?-Yes; +fortnightly or monthly. + +10,239. You settle with the fishermen at Baltasound?-Yes; I have +settled with the greater number of them there for the last four +years. + +10,240. In 1867, before the formation of the firm, had you +fishermen in your own employment here?-Yes. + +10,241. Before 1868 Mr. John Spence carried on business at +Haroldswick as a fish-curer?-Yes. + +10,242. And, I understand, the accounts of both the Haroldswick +fishermen and the Baltasound fishermen are now kept in your +books at Baltasound?-Yes. They are transferred from what is +called the Haroldswick fisherman's ledger to the general ledger. +We enter the amount of advances at Haroldswick into the general +fishing ledger, and give the men credit in that ledger for the +amount of their fishings. + +10,243. Does that general fishing ledger show the amount of +balances due at the beginning of each year as well as at the end?- +Yes. [Produces fisherman's ledger.] + +10,244. Are the shop accounts entered in this book in full, or is +the summation merely transferred from another book?-These +accounts [showing] are just taken from what we call the +fisherman's ledger at Haroldswick, containing the fishermen's +accounts for the season. + +10,245. How do you do with the fishermen who deal in the shop at +Baltasound?-We have a shop ledger in which the details of their +transactions are entered. Here [showing], and for eighteen +pages back, you will find the Baltasound fishermen. Then here +[showing] is the account for the rent, which we pay for the men to +the Earl of Zetland. I collect Lord Zetland's rents here for Messrs. +George and Arthur James Hay, the factors, and remit them to them +when collected. + +10,246. Have you the shop ledger?-Yes. [Produces it.] + +10,247. Each fisherman has his account separately kept in it?- +Yes. + +10,248. I suppose few of them care to keep passbooks?-Some of +them keep pass-books over the whole season, but others of them +do not. Here [showing account in shop ledger] is a sample of the +transactions for this season. The amount of that account is carried +into the ledger, but the credits due to the man do not appear in the +shop ledger. + +10,249. Do you generally find the men applying to you for cash +early in the year, before the fishing begins?-Not often. If they +are requiring a few shillings they may ask for it, and get it, but I +cannot say that they ever ask for much. + +10,250. I see here an entry on January 5, 'To biscuit, 1s. 2d.:' what +quantity of biscuit would that be?-I suppose it would be 4 lbs. of +what are called cabin biscuit. + +10,251. 'Tobacco, 1s. 1d?' -That would be a 1/4 lb. at 31/2d. an +ounce and the man got 1d. off by taking a quantity. + +10,252. 'Tea, 11d.,:' is that the best quality of tea?-Yes. We +have cheaper tea than that at 8d. and 10d. + +10,253. Are Shetland people, I understand, are very particular +about their tea?-Yes; and they are very good judges of it. + +10,254. I see another entry on October, 28 ' To meal, 2s. 10d.?'- +That would be 16 lbs., or half a lispund. + +10,255. On October 5 the meal was 5s, 9d., so that there had been +a fall between that date and October 28?-Yes. There is often a +rise and fall in the price of meal. + +10,256. Where do you get your meal?-Generally from Aberdeen, +from Glenny & Cruickshank, and Mr. Mess, and Mr. Walker, and +Mr. Tulloch, all in Aberdeen. We generally get our flour from +Messrs. Tod, Stockbridge. + +10,257. I see an entry, 'To meal per meal-book:' is that a separate +book which you keep for meal?-Yes; it is a book we generally +keep in the cellar, where the meal is weighed out. The meal is +marked there at the time the people get it, and then it is entered as +a whole in the ledger. + +10,258. That is done to save repetition of entries in the lodger?- +Yes. This [showing] is one of the accounts referred to by Mr. +Sandison, kept by six men on the station as a company, and it is in +that account that we give them credit for 2s. per 20 weighs. We +put it to their credit there, and then charge the men only for the +balance in their accounts. + +10,259. How is that credited in their account?-It has not been +done yet. The crew have not settled. + +10,260. But how would it be entered?-Just for an allowance. + +10,261. You take the whole quantity of fish delivered, and +calculate what the allowance is upon that?-Yes; on the quantities +delivered of cod, tusk, and ling. We don't allow it upon the saith. + +10,262. Is the saith an inferior item in the season's fishing?-It has +been rather low for some years back until this year, but it has been +rather better. + +10,263. I see, under January 12, in Andrew Mouat's account, +'Paraffin oil, 5d.' How much oil was that?-About 51/2 gills, I +suppose. + +10,264. What is the selling price of paraffin oil at your store?-2s. +a gallon. + +10,265. How many gills are in a gallon?-32. + +10,266. So that the price which Mouat paid for his oil was a little +more than 2s. 6d. a gallon?- Yes, but the bottles are not all alike. +Some may hold 6 gills, and some only 51/2. We generally fill the +bottle for 5d. when they bring it to us. + +10,267. Where do you get your paraffin oil?-From Young's +Paraffin Light Co. + +10,268. Do you generally import it once a year or so in the +beginning of winter?-No; we generally get 1 or 2 or 3 casks by +the steamer now and then, as we require it. + +10,269. When did you last get a supply of oil from that +company?-I don't know if we had any last season at all; +because we got 3 or 4 casks early in the spring, which served +us throughout the season. + +10,270. What was the price of it?-I think the last we bought from +Young & Co. was 1s. 5d. or 1s. 6d.-I think 1s. 5d. per gallon; but +then there is double freight to pay on it. + +10,271. Where do Young & Co. deliver it?-At Granton. + +10,272. What is the freight from there?-I think it is nearly 2d. per +gallon; but we have had the oil much dearer from Young & Co. +than 1s. 5d. + +10,273. Have you ever got any from Rowatt & Son?-We have +had oil from a person named Williamson, but not direct. I think +the last we got from him was through an agent in Leith. + +10,274. Where is Williamson's place?-I cannot say; only saw the +name on the cask. We got it from Mr. J.B. Leask. + +10,275. Do either of these books which you have produced contain +the accounts of persons employed in your curing business?-Yes. + +10,276. Do you contract for curing at Baltasound [Page 250] and +Haroldswick?-No; we employ the people ourselves; and their +accounts are entered generally in the Baltasound book. + +10,277. I see an account of Thomas Mouat, beach boy, February +17, 1870, 'To Baltasound shop account £2, 0s. 3d., by fee £1, 10s., +by balance to account, 10s. 3d.,' which is carried to next account, +and he is charged 6d of interest on it. Then November 17, 'To +Baltasound shop account £1, 10s. 8d., by beach fee £1, 15s., by +balance to account 6s. 5d.' Has he been working for you this +year?-No. + +10,278. Has that balance of 6s. 5d. been settled?-No. + +10,279. Where is the boy now?-He is working as a blacksmith. + +10,280. Do you charge these boys interest when they are in +debt?-Yes, we have done so; but only for the last two years. + +10,281. Has that been with the view of reducing their balance?-It +will rather increase them. + +10,282. But has it been done in order to lead them to incur less +debt?-I wish it would; but in many cases I believe they cannot +help themselves. It is not their wish to incur debt + +10,283. Does it generally happen that a beach boy is in your debt +at the end of the season?-Not generally. + +10,284. I see that John Miller has a balance of 4s. against him in +1870, and a balance of 9d. to get in 1871?-Yes. + +10,285. Robert Gardiner has a balance of £1, 19s., against him in +1870. Has he not settled that yet?-No; he is in Glasgow. + +10,286. Thomas Abernethy, beach boy, got a fee of £2. 10s., and +15s. for drying fish for 30 days, and he had to receive a balance of +1s. 01/2d. at the end of the year?-Yes. + +10,287. John Jamieson, beach boy, had a beach fee of £2, 5s., 39 +days drying fish at 5d.-16s. 3d. and there is a balance of 11s. 11d. +against him upon his shop account?-Yes. + +10,288. Nicol Thomson had a beach fee of £1, and he had a +balance of 5s. 3d. against him for 1870, and has since got supplies +to the amount of 5s. 61/2d?-Yes. He was only employed for part of +the season. + +10,289. Was he working for you last year?-No. + +10,290. John Harrison has a balance in his favour of 2s. 101/2d.?- +Yes. + +10,291. Archibald Thomson, in 1870, had a balance against him of +17s. He settled again the day before yesterday, and got a balance +in cash of £2, 6s. 31/2 d?-Yes. He was a fisherman last year. +10,292. He had £9, 1s. to get for his fish?-Yes; and he had credit +with another boat. He went with one boat for a time in place of +another man who was laid up. + +10,293. In the account of Charles Sandison, fish-curer, his shop +account at Uyea Sound was £3, 2s. 11d. in 1870, and £3, 11s. +101/2d. at Baltasound, and there also a balance of rent of 11s. 6d. +charged against him. The balance against him at November 12, +1869, and carried to new account, is £4, 5s. 31/2d. The interest on +that is 4s. 3d., and the balance against him on March 18, 1871, was +£9, 8s. 51/2d.?-Yes. + +10,294. He has since put in £6, 3s. 9d. and £1 to his credit, the first +being the price of a cow, and the other a payment made by his son, +or carried from his son's account into his?-Yes, by his order. + +10,295. That was done with the view of reducing his debt?-Yes; +the son was living with the father, and it was done to reduce his +father's debt. + +10,296. This account has not been settled yet?-No, and this +year's rent has not been debited to the account. We have not yet +taken it out of the land ledger. + +10,297. Has he been working for you?-No. He is an old man, +and I think his son intends to take the farm, and to join him. + +10,298. There is £4, 12s. 6d. of rent debited to him in 1870. To +whom was that rent payable?-To Spence & Co. That is one of +the farms included in their lease. + +10,299. In the account of Thomas Peterson he is credited with a +beach fee of £5, and he had a balance against him in 1869 in 6s. +101/2d. The balance in his favour at settling in 1871 was 1s. + 41/2d., but in that year he had been fishing, not regularly, but +occasionally, with certain boats?-Yes. He has been fishing +regularly this year, but his account is not settled yet. + +10,300. This account [showing] contains the total beach fees paid +by you in 1869 and 1870, being £91, 12s. 8d. in 1869 and £115, +12s. 8d. in 1870?-Yes. + +10,301. What are the entries on page 251?-That is a page which I +am using as a cash-book in settling up with the men at the present +settlement. + +10,302. It shows the amount paid in cash to each man?-Yes. + +10,303. The total is £162, 10s. 21/2d., which been paid to thirty-two +men?-Yes. + +10,304. That does not show the men whose balances were the +other way?-No. + +10,305. Would there be a larger number whose balances were the +other way?-There would be great deal more money out, whether +the number of men were larger or not. + +10,306. Have you any dealings in hosiery at your shop?-We do +very little in that way. + +10,307. When you do deal with a woman for hosiery, do you open +an account in her name?-Sometimes. Of course if she gets +worsted from our shop we have to debit her with it, and see that +she returns it. + +10,308. Does she generally take out goods for the amount of her +knitting?-Sometimes. + +10 309. Have you a special book for these accounts?-No, not +now. + +10,310. Did you use to have a woman's book for them?-Yes; we +had a small ledger when we commenced. It was not exactly a +woman's book, but the hosiery accounts were generally kept in it. + +10,311. Did it contain accounts for butter and eggs?-No; we did +not keep accounts for them. Of course if a man comes in with 16 +or 20 or 30 or 40 lbs. of butter, that goes to his credit if he wishes +it to be settled for in that way. + +10,312. You do not take any share in the management of the shop +at Haroldswick?-I sometimes take a little. + +10,313. I have been told to-day that Mrs. Spence's hosiery +purchases are settled for with goods got in the shop there?-Yes. + +10,314. Are Mrs. Spence's purchases of hosiery and worsted +made by her on account of the firm?-No. She generally sells for +herself what hosiery she buys. + +10,315. Then, when the hosiery is paid for by means of goods +supplied from the shop at Haroldswick, how does that enter the +books of the firm?-She is just debited with the amount paid to +so and so. + +10,316. Are these goods debited to her at cost price?-No, at retail +price. + +10,317. And the firm has no connection with the purchase or sale +of that hosiery?-No. + +10,318. Where do you get your supplies of tea?-We get them +from different places. + +10,319. Do you get any from R. & C. Robertson, Lerwick?-No, +I don't think we have got 20 lbs. of tea from them since we +commenced business in 1868. We get our tea from Aberdeen, +Glasgow, and London. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM WILLIAMSON, examined. + +10,320. You are a fisherman at Snarravoe, and hold a bit of land +on Lord Zetland's property?-Yes. + +10,321. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Mr. Mouat, the +commissioner for Mr. Hay, and Mr. Hay is the commissioner for +the Earl. + +10,322. Does Mr. Mouat enter the rent in your account?-Yes. + +10,323. Do you fish for Spence & Co?-Yes. I have fished for +them since they became a company, and before that I fished for +Hay & Co. + +[Page 251] + +10,324. Are you quite at liberty to fish for any person you +please?-I suppose I am. + +10,325. And to deal at any shop you please?-Yes. + +10,326. Do you generally deal in Spence & Co.'s shop?-Yes, +because I find I am as well served there as I would be at any other +place. +10.327. Snarravoe is in the south of the island, and you go to the +shop at Uyeasound?-Yes. + +10,328. Is that the nearest shop to you?-There are some small +shops nearer, but I find that I am as well served at that shop as I +would be at any other shop I could go to. I have very little +dealings in any other shop. + +10,329. Do you keep a pass-book?-I had a passbook at one time, +but it was not kept regularly, and I don't have one now. I found +that the keeping of it made very little difference. + +10,330. Were you ever employed in fishing at a fixed price for the +whole fish taken during the season?-Yes; but we were generally +paid it little more than the fixed price. + +10,331. When were you engaged in that way?-About a year or +two years ago by Spence & Co. We engaged at 7s., and we were +paid it few pence more-I think 3d. more. + +10,332. Did you ask for that?-No; they gave it freely, because the +fish turned out a little better than they expected at the time when +we made the engagement for the fishing. + +10,333. If they had turned out a little worse, would the men have +taken less for their fish?-No doubt they would have looked for +their bargain; but it would have been just in them to have taken it +little less in that case, as well as to get a little more when the price +was high. + +10,334. Do you think the men in this district would be content to +have a bargain of that sort as a rule?-I don't know; because +sometimes the markets go up, and the men may get a little more +for their fish if the price is settled at the end of the season. + +10,335. Therefore you think it is better to have the price fixed at +the end of the season, when you see how the markets have turned +out?-Sometimes it would be. + +10,336. But if the markets were to fall towards the end of the year, +might the fisherman not gain something if he had engaged at a +fixed price?-He would; and that was the kind of engagements we +had in the herring fishing in Hay & Co.'s time. + +10,337. Have you gone to the herring fishing?-Yes, but we were +always paid a little more than we agreed for. We were paid 10s. or +11s., or more, per cran. + +10,338. Were you always successful at it?-Only sometimes. That +fishing has been a failure for the last few years. + +10,339. But you had no arrangement there except to get so much +per cran for all the herrings you took?-That was all. + +10,340. Were you running an account in the shop while the fishing +was going on?-Yes. + +10,341. Don't you think you would be better off to have your +money paid down once a month or so, as the fish are delivered, +and be able to pay for your purchases as you get them?-I don't +know. I suppose the goods are all the same price, whether I pay +for them when I get them or not. + +10,342. Don't you think you would be able to buy your goods +cheaper if you could pay for them at the time?-I don't know. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined. + +10,343. Are you a fisherman at Westing?-I was formerly a +fisherman, but it is about twenty years ago since I gave it up. I +am now curing fish for Messrs. Spence & Co. at Westing. + +10,344. Do you cure by contract?-Yes. I get 10s. per ton of dry +fish for my trouble. + +10,345. Do you employ a number of beach boys and men in the +curing?-Yes; about eight. They get fees varying from 30s. up to +above + +10,346. Do you keep a book in which you enter the payments you +make to them?-No. I do not keep any book except a pass-book, +in which I enter the fish that are delivered to me. + +10,347. Are the wages of these boys paid by you?-Not wholly by +me, but I pay them in part. + +10,348. But you are their employer, and are liable to them for their +wages?-Yes. + +10,349. Do they take part of their wages in goods from the +shop?-When they want them in that way, they get a line for +their money to the shop. + +10,350. Do you give them a line when they want goods?-Yes. I +give them a line stating the amount that Mr. Sandison is to give +them, either in goods or in money. + +10,351. Is that entered against you in the books at Uyea Sound?- +Yes. + +10,352. Before paying them their wages, do you ascertain how +much has been taken out by them in that way?-No. + +10,353. Then how is the balance of their wages settled? Is it paid +directly by the company?-It is paid by the company. I state in my +line what fee I give them; and what they may give them over and +above that I cannot tell. I am not responsible for that. + +10,354. The line you give to the company does not state so much +money, 5s. or 10s., that is to be allowed to them in goods or in +cash, at a particular time, but it simply states the fee that you have +agreed to give them at the end of the year?-It states the balance +they have not actually got from me. If they want a certain amount +at any time, I give them a line; or if they ask the money from me, +then I give it to them, and they get a line to Mr. Sandison for the +balance. + +10,355. Do you sometimes give them money yourself?-Yes; +when they ask for money they get it. + +10,356. But more commonly they get a line to Mr. Sandison for +goods?-More commonly for the greater share of it. + +10,357. How many lines do they get in the course of a year? Is it +one or more?-Generally one at the end of the season, when the +fish have been dried. + +10,358. Then how do they get their goods in the course of the +season?-I cannot tell as to that, for I don't know. + +10,359. But how does Mr. Sandison know how far to give them +credit in the course of the season, before he gets the line from you, +which you say you give him at the end?-Mr. Sandison no doubt +knows what the amount of a beach fee will be; but I cannot say as +to that. I am not responsible for any excess he may give them. + +10,360. Then all you do with regard to these out-takes at the shop +is to give the boy a line at the end of the season, telling Mr. +Sandison what the agreed-on fee was?-Yes, and what balance I +have not already paid him. + +10,361. And in that line you make no mention of what he has got +at the shop, because you don't know?-No. + +10,362. In that way of working, is there not a risk of the boy asking +more at the end of the season than is really due to him, and of your +overpaying him?-Mr. Sandison might overpay him, but I could +not. + +10,363. Why?-Because I fix the fee, and I know what I have +given him, and then I only give a line to Mr. Sandison to pay the +balance. + +10,364. But he might have got the whole amount of his fee in +out-takes from Mr. Sandison, before you gave him payment in +cash at the end of the season?-He might; but I am generally well +acquainted with the boys, and have confidence in them that they +will not run an account of that kind. + +10,365. Suppose a boy were to come to you in July, and asked for +5s. in cash, would you be likely to give it to him?-Yes, I would +give it. + +10,366. Might it not happen that at that very time he had run up an +account in the shop for £2 or £3?-If he did so, I would expect Mr. +Sandison to make me acquainted with it. + +[Page 252] + +10,367. Did Mr. Sandison ever give you intimation that a +particular boy was in debt to such an amount?-No. + +10,368. So that these boys can get a cash advance from you, and +credit at the shop at Uyea Sound at the same time?-Yes, if they +choose. That might be done for a certain time, but I don't think it +could go on very long without being known. + +10,369. I suppose it is not very likely that you would give him +much money?-He could get it all in money if he asked for it +when the work is done, but not before. + +10,370. But you would not pay him the money until you had +ascertained the amount of his account at the shop?-I never +asked that. + +10,371. Is your work done about September?-Yes. + +10,372. Suppose in September a boy were to come and ask you for +the whole of his fee in money, would you pay it down to him?-I +have done that. + +10,373. Did he tell you that he had no account at the shop?-Yes; +and that proved to be the case. + +10,374. Has that happened often?-Not often. It has happened +once with regard to the whole, and oftener with regard to a part. + +10,375. Have you an account at Uyea Sound for supplies to +yourself?-Yes. + +10,376. The contract price of your curing is entered in that account +against your supplies?-Yes; and I am paid the balance in cash. + +10,377. And out of that balance you have to pay any balances that +are due to the beach boys?-Yes. + +10,378. How much money will you require to get at the end of the +season, in order to settle with your beach boys?-Generally the +money which the beach boys get from me is paid to them during +the season. + +10,379. When do you settle at the shop?-In December or January. +I have not settled yet for last year. + +10,380. Therefore you have not settled with the beach boys?-All +the beach boys are all settled with in November. + +10,381. How much money did you require last November in order +to settle with them?-It is Mr. Sandison who settles with them at +the end of the season, and I don't know how much money they had +to get. + +10,382. Do you generally have the same beach boys for some years +in succession?-Yes. I have had some for six years, and some for +shorter periods. + +10,383. What proportion of your payment for curing do you get +in money? Do you get most of it at the end of the season?- +Sometimes. In some years we have to buy a good deal of meal and +other things; but in a year such as the present, when we have had a +good crop, I get the most of it in money. Besides, I can get money +any time when I ask for it. I have never been refused it within the +last twenty years. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HARPER, examined. + + +10,384. You are a fisherman to Messrs. Spence & Co. at +Haroldswick?-Yes. I fish at Norwick, but the books are at +Haroldswick. + +10,385. Have you a bit of land from Spence & Co?-Yes. + +10,386. You pay your rent to them, and deal with them at +their shop at Haroldswick?-Yes, I get all my goods there. + +10,387. Do you deal anywhere else?-No. + +10,388. Why?-For want of money. + +10,389. How do you want money?-Because I don't have it. + +10,390. Have you had bad seasons?-I never was in debt before I +came to Spence. & Co. + +10,391. How did you get into debt with them?-From bad seasons +in the first place, and from overpriced goods. Meal is over-priced, +for one thing. My father has dealt twelve years with ready money; +and I have seen the advantage he has got by it, and what I have +lost. + +10,392. Who is your father?-William Harper: he is a fisherman +too; he has been master of a boat for about forty years to Mr. +Spence. + +10,393. How do you know that the meal is over-priced which you +get from Messrs. Spence's shop?-The first meal I got from +Spence & Co. was one boll, when I began to fish for them four +years ago. My father got one half of the sack, and I got the other: I +was charged 27s., and he was charged 24s. 6d. + +10,394. Why was that?-I had nothing to give Spence & Co., but +my father had ready money. That was in the spring before I +commenced to fish. + +10,395. You did not settle for the meal until the end of the year?- +No. + +10,396. Consequently they were long in getting their money from +you?-Yes. + +10,397. Was it not quite fair that they should get little more for +lying out of their money all that time?-Yes; but 2s. 6d. was too +much to charge for interest. That was only on meal, but I could +make more profit on groceries and soft goods too. + +10,398. Have you anything more to say about the meal?-That is +the only thing I can recollect about it. + +10,399. Have you bought your meal in the same way ever since?- +Yes, until last year, when I had as much as could supply myself. + +10,400. How many bolls had you to buy in the course of the +year?-From 4 to 6. + +10,401. Do you think you lost 2s. 6d. a boll on each of these?-I +have no doubt I did, for want of ready money. + +10,402. What have you to say about the other things?-That was +somewhat further back, but at any rate I have been out of pocket +with Spence & Co. ever since commenced with them. I was a +skipper where I was before, and got a skipper's fee; but the fee +which I got from Spence & Co. is not so much as I got formerly. I +fished for John Johnston for 11 years. For the first two years I was +only a young fellow, and was to be paid according to my fishing. +After that, I got promise of £4 of skipper's fee, and when he saw I +was getting on so well he always gave me £5 afterwards. Then I +was forced-at least I believed I was forced, although I know +now that I was not-to go to Spence & Co. from John Johnston, +because he got his warning and could not keep me, but had to sell +his boats or boat. + +10,403. When was that?-In 1867 or 1868. He had two boats, and +he sold the one I was fishing in. + +10,404. How were you forced to leave him?-Because Spence & +Co. got a tack from Mr walker, and I and all the north parish +understood that I had to leave my employer and go to them. + +10,405. Were you not told that you were quite at liberty to fish +either to Spence & Co. or to any other person?-I was never told +that until I heard Mr. Sandison say it. I don't think it was told in +the north of the island; at least I was not told about it. + +10,406. Were you ever told that you had to fish for Spence & +Co?-That was rather hinted at. + +10,407. Who hinted it?-Mr. Mouat. I was rather hot-tempered, +and so was he, and when we were both hot he gave me a hint about +that. + +10,408. Was that in 1868?-I think so. + +10,409. I suppose you conveyed the hint to a good number of +others?-Yes. I sat down and wrote a letter to Mr. Walker, telling +him what had been said; and I got an answer from him, saying I +was to work according to the rules I had in my lease, and that no +one could interfere. + +10,410. Is there anything more you have to say?-There is nothing +particular; but I may say that there are a good many skippers here, +and a good many poor men, who will never be asked to come +forward, and will never get the chance. + +10,411. They may come forward if they like?-They don't care +about coming forward, and there are some of them whose stories +are far worse than mine. + +[Page 253] + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, CHARLES GRAY, examined. + +10,412. You are a mason at Balliasta?-Yes. + +10,413. Have you been working lately in the chromate of iron +quarries?-Not for the last few years. I think it is six years since +I was there. + +10,414. How were the wages paid at these quarries when you +were working at them?-Mr. Mouat was superintending then. + +10,415. When did he cease to superintend?-I think it is only +about a year back, or two years. + +10,416. Was there a change in the company then?-Yes. There +was a new company formed then, and new people to work the +quarries. + +10,417. Who was working the quarries when you were employed +there?-There were different agents during the time I was there; +but Mr. Mouat was superintendent. + +10,418. You don't know who the company were?-I think the +company were just the proprietors. + +10,419. Were your wages paid to you in cash?-Yes; we got them +in cash from the cashier, the late Mr. Charles Mouat,-not the +present Mr. Mouat. + +10,420. Where were they paid to you?-Sometimes at his house, +and sometimes at the vestry, which was a public place. + +10,421. But always in cash?-Yes, always in cash, since there was +a cashier appointed. + +10,422. Did you not sometimes get lines?-No; I never got lines. I +cannot say for others, but I never got one. + +10,423. Did you never see a line?-Not to my recollection. + +10,424. Did you ever hear of lines being given?-I did hear about +that, but I could not vouch for it being true. + +10,425. What did you hear about it?-That some parties had got +lines for part of their wages. + +10,426. What were they to do with the lines?-I don't know. + +10,427. What did you understand they were to do with them?-I +understood the line was to be paid at the place where it was sent +to. + +10,428. Was that at the shop?-Yes. + +10,429. And to be paid in goods?-I did not know that. + +10,430. Did you not know whether there was any practice of that +sort?-No, I did not know about it myself. + +10,431. Have you heard that there was?-Yes; but it is a long time + back. + +10,432. I understood you had been employed there lately?-No. + +10,433. Who is paymaster there now?-Mr. Gardner. I think the +men are paid at his house. + +10,434. The company have no shop?-No. + +10,435. And Mr. Gardner has no connection with any shop?- +None whatever. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, GILBERT WILLIAMSON, examined. + +10,436. Did you receive a citation some days ago to attend here?- +There was a citation handed to me not bearing my name. + +10,437. It bore the name of Peter Williamson, storekeeper, +Haroldswick?-Yes. + +10,438. Is there any person named Williamson who is a +storekeeper at Haroldswick except yourself?-No. + +10,439. Did you not know that that citation was intended for +you?-I could not certify that it was. + +10,440. Had you any doubt that it was?-I had some doubt. + +10,441. How could you possibly have any doubt when there is no +other person of that name there who is a storekeeper?-Because +my name in the register is Gilbert, not Peter. + +10,442. Did you think that was a sufficient excuse for not +attending this Court?-Yes. + +10,443. Did you receive a citation to-day?-From a boy. + +10,444. From a messenger from me?-Yes. + +10,445. Did he tell you he had been sent from here?-He said he +got it from Mr. White. + +10,446. In reply to that, you wrote saying that you did not think +that was intended for you either?-No. + +10,447. Or that you received it too late, and that you did not know +whether you were bound to come?-Yes. I took witnesses to see +what time it was when I got it. + +10,448. Are you the principal storekeeper to Spence & Co. at +Haroldswick?-Yes. + +10,449. Have you anything to do with the purchases of hosiery +which are made at that shop?-We don't deal in it. + +10,450. At the shop you do not; but Mrs. John Spence, who is not +able to attend here to-day, has some dealings in hosiery?-We +never see her buy hosiery in the shop, to my knowledge. + +10,451. Do you not know that she buys hosiery in her house?-I +hear that she buys hosiery, but I never saw her do so. + +10,452. Have you ever received lines from her directing you to +supply goods to parties from whom she has bought hosiery?-I +have received lines from her to supply value for so much, but not +stating that it was for hosiery. It might have been for anything. + +10,453. Have you any of these lines?-No, I have none. + +10,454. In what form are they drawn?-Suppose it was to Ursula +Johnston, the line would be, Pay to Ursula Johnston the value of +2s., and it is signed J. Spence. + +10,455. Do you always honour these lines by supplying the party +named in them with goods up to the value of the sum named in the +line?-Yes, with whatever they ask for. + +10,456. Do you receive many of them?-Sometimes we receive a +few, but not very many; at least I do not consider it very many. + +10,457. What would you consider very many?-100 in a week; I +would consider that very many. + +10,458. How many is it that you do receive?-I never counted +them. + +10,459. Would there be twenty in a week?-Sometimes not one +half of that, sometimes more, and some weeks none at all. + +10,460. Is that according as the business is brisk, or the reverse?- +So far as I know, it is. I am under the conviction that for a month I +have had no advances to pay at all. + +10,461. Is there any other way in which parties who sell hosiery to +Mrs. Spence, or who you have reason to believe sell hosiery to her, +are paid out of the shop?-I don't quite understand the question. + +10,462. Have you any other transactions with Mrs. Spence?- +None with her. + +10,463. Do you know whether any other parties who sell hosiery to +Mrs. Spence have accounts at the shop-I could not certify as to +that. + +10,464. Have you got any of these lines?-I have none of them on +my person. + +10,465. Have you any of them in the shop?-Yes. + +10,466. Were they left there by parties to whom you had supplied +goods?-Yes. + +10,467. Did you read the citation which was sent to you?-Yes. + +10,468. Did you see that you were required to bring with you +specimens of lines given or received by any party connected with +the company in the purchase of hosiery?-I saw that written there. + +10,469. Why did you not bring them?-Because they were not +mine to bring. + +10,470. Whose were they?-Spence & Co.'s. + +10,471. Why did you not ask leave to bring them?-Because the +members of the firm were all here. + +10,472. Could you not have brought them with you, and asked +leave of the partners of the firm here to produce them?-That +never occurred to my mind. + +10,473. Do you make the same answer with regard to the citation +to produce all papers, books, and accounts, [Page 254] showing +the nature of the company's dealings with fishermen or knitters?- +Yes. + +10,474. You could not bring these here without asking leave of the +members of the firm to produce them-I could not ask their leave, +because they were here. + +10,475. Could you not have brought the books here and asked +permission then to produce them?-I did not think it was right for +me to remove them from the office until I had asked leave to do +so. There is one of the books here, the fisherman's ledger, which +has been spoken to by Mr. Mouat. + +10,476. How was that book brought here?-Mr. Mouat sent for it. + +10,477. Why did you come here yourself without asking leave of +the members of the firm?-Because I was summoned. + +10,478. Was it not just as necessary for you to ask leave to come +yourself as to ask leave to bring the books?-No, I came when I +was sent for. + +10,479. Let me recommend you in future to pay more attention to +a legal citation when it is served upon you, or you will get into +trouble. I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here, in +consequence of the way in which you have behaved. + + *The following specimen of the lines issued by Mrs. Spence +was afterwards produced:-'Haroldswick, 13th Novr. 1871 +Messrs. Spence & Co. pay Andrina Boyne the sum of one shilling. +1s. J. SPENCE' + The line is crossed, 'Entd. G.W.' + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON (recalled), examined. + +10,480. Are you agent at Uyea Sound for the Shipwrecked +Mariners' Fund?-I was agent, but there are no members now. + +10,481. Have the men ceased to subscribe?-Yes. I think I have +not sent up a return for five or six years, not having anything to +send. + +10,482. Are any of the members of your firm agents in Unst for the +Society?-No. + +10,483. Do you know anything of a man named Jamieson who was +formerly at Uyea Sound, and who was warned out by your firm?- +That would be Thomas Jamieson who was at Uyea Sound until +three years ago. + +10,484. Was he removed from that place shortly after you took +your lease?-About a year after. + +10,485. He had a shop there?-Yes. + +10,486. Is there any stipulation in the lease about shops on the +property?-It is so long since I read it that I don't recollect. + +10,487. Have you any letters on that subject from Mr. Walker or +from Major Cameron?-I cannot tax my memory with receiving +any. + +10,488. Is it understood that no shops should be opened upon the +estate?-That was the understanding. + +10,489. And was it in following out that understanding that +Jamieson was removed?-Yes. + +10,490. Do you know whether a man named John Johnston +was removed at Haroldswick in carrying out the same +understanding?-I believe he was. He has now a shop near +the same place where he was before, on an adjacent estate. + +10,491. He removed to Lord Zetland's land?-Yes. + +10,492. Is that the case in which the shop was removed bodily +across the road?-I believe so, but I cannot speak to that from +seeing it. + +10,493. I fancy the understanding you mention proceeds upon the +footing that you ought, in consideration of the rent you pay to +Major Cameron, to have the monopoly of the shop business in the +island, so far as he can give it to you?-Yes; that no doubt was the +intention. + +10,494. And that would be one of the considerations upon which +you pay so high a rent?-Yes. I may state that one strong reason +why we took the lease at first was, that we believed it was +depopulation and sheep farming that was meant, by what we +saw taking place in other places; and we also were under the +impression that the small tenants could not exist without the +scattalds, or if they should have them to pay for; and while, of +course, I do not say there was not some selfish design, because we +expected to make a living, we also hoped to see them make a +living, and we were to try to improve them if we could. However +it ends, that was really our design, and the number of small shops +which existed stood in the way of that. I have known cases where +I would not give luxuries to a man who was in debt, but he would +come and get fishing lines from me, which he said he needed, and +he has sold them to other shops in order to supply himself with +superfluities. I know one case in which I gave a woman a quarter +of a boll of meal, when I would not give her either tea or sugar, +and she went and disposed of a portion of the meal to a neighbour +in order to get tea, she being then irrecoverably in debt. + +10,495. Then you mean to imply that this monopoly was secured +partly to save yourselves from debts of that sort, and partly to keep +the people in their holdings?-Yes; to keep them from being +turned out of the island. + +10,496. But also partly to prevent them, when they got into your +debt, from spending their money and their produce elsewhere?- +Exactly. I may mention that North Yell we had only three fishing +boats this year, and when I settled with them I paid them over +£200 in cash. We had no store there, except a small one at the +beach or fishing station, to supply them with the necessaries they +wanted and the fishing materials. We don't cure by contract there, +but by beach men, splitters, and boys; and I paid every one in cash +as being the simplest and shortest way. + +10,497. Is there any arrangement between your firm and any other +firm or fish-curer, by which you take over the debts of men who +change their service?-There is no arrangement. We try to do that +if we can, but we find it rather uphill work. + +10,498. Have you ever succeeded in getting a merchant who +has engaged a man that formerly fished to you, and who left in +your debt, to pay up the man's debt?-Since the company was +formed we have had no experience of that, and it would be +scarcely possible for me tax my memory just now with cases +which had occurred before; but I have no doubt there were cases, +in which I tried to do that, whether I succeeded or not. + +10,499 If a man left Mr. Mouat, for instance, and was in his debt +and came to you, would you pay up the debt which he was due to +Mr. Mouat?-Yes; but it was only a peradventure; there was no +standing rule on the matter, that I am aware of. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, THOMAS ANDERSON, +examined. + +10,500. You are a fisherman at Haroldswick, and you have fished +for some years for Spence & Co?-Yes. + +10,501. You have been running accounts with them: during that +period, and taking your supplies from them?-Yes; the whole or +nearly the whole of my supplies. + +10,502. Before that where did you get your supplies?-I had +more money to work upon then, and I got my supplies from John +Johnston and from Mr. Mouat at Baltasound, and sometimes from +Mr. Spence. + +10 503 Did you pay them generally in cash?-Yes. + +10,504. How does it happen that you have not been paying in cash +during the last four years?-Because have a small family, and I +have more responsibility. + +10,505. Your expenses have been increased, and have not the cash +in hand?-Yes. + +10,506. Was it for that reason that you were obliged to run +accounts at the shop at Haroldswick?-Yes. + +10,507. Do you think you are as well served in respect of quality +and price of goods as you were formerly?-I get the same quality +of goods, but not at the same price. If I were taking cloth or +cotton, or any other [Page 255] kind of goods, and paying cash for +them, I would get them 2s. 6d. per £ cheaper than if I were having +them marked down for a twelvemonth. + +10,508. Have you tried both ways within the last two years, to any +great extent?-I have not paid cash to any great extent within that +time. + +10,509. But you have bought perhaps £2 or £3 worth in the course +of the year?-Yes. + +10,510. Did you get a discount for cash?-Yes. + +10,511. Can you tell me the cash price and the credit price for +meal?-Not exactly; but I know that if I was buying a boll of meal +for cash, I would get it 1s. 6d. or 2s. cheaper than if I was having it +marked down for a twelvemonth. I have also got cotton 1/2d. or 1d. +per yard cheaper when paying for it in cash than if it had been +marked down. If I had cash to the amount of £20 in the course of +a year, I am certain I could save £2 upon it at any rate. + +10,512. If you were paid for your fish every month as they were +delivered, do you think you would be able to pay in cash, and so +pay off your debt?-I think I would, if there were good fishing +years. + +10,513. If you had a bad season again, where would you get your +supplies?-We are not to be looking for bad seasons always. + +10,514. Nor for good seasons always?-No. + +10,515. You have had several good seasons now, have you not?- +Yes. + +10,516. How do you sell your winter and spring fish?-We can get +cash or goods for them. + +10,517. How much will you make for your winter and spring fish +in an ordinary year: may it be £4 or £5?-Sometimes it may be as +much as that, but not generally. + +10,518. Could you not make more if you had larger boats?-We +have never tried that; but I don't think it. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HAY, examined. + +10,519. You are a merchant in Haroldswick?-I was. I sold +groceries and some soft goods; but I have given up that business +now and turned farmer. + +10,520. Were you engaged in fish-curing?-A little. I had one +boat at one time but not now. + +10,521. With what class of people was your business chiefly +done?-Just with the neighbours,-tenants and fishermen. + +10,522. Was it a ready-money business generally?-It was that +system I liked. I ran some accounts; but I rather liked ready +money. + +10,523. You were not extensively engaged in fishcuring, and in +that way you had no security for long accounts?-No. + +10,524. Was that the only reason why you preferred a ready-money +system?-I preferred it, thinking the system would work better +once it had had a fair beginning. + +10,525. Did you find that it worked fairly well with you?-I had +not enough experience of it to say that, because the other system +had been so long in existence that it was difficult to make an +exception. + +10,526. You mean that the credit system has prevailed so long, and +is so deeply rooted in Shetland, that it was difficult to carry on +business in any other way-Yes. + +10,527. Have you formed any conclusions on that subject which +you are now prepared to state?-My own conviction is, that if a +ready-money system was once in operation, and had a fair start, it +would work better than the present system. + +10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that +if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that +would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they +would husband their means better; and if there were those among +them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson +when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for +them in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty +in beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present +will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed +by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously +and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him. +At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the +ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty. + +10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly +payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just +as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would. + +10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on more +advantageous terms?-I think he would. + +10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to +respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it +was absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes. + +10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give +credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for +next season?-I should suppose so. + +10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one +shop?-Yes, it comes to that. + +10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly, and +you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a +merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him a +reasonable amount of credit for the support of his family?-I +would have no hesitation in doing that at all, and I have done it. + +10,535. Even under the old system?-Yes, under the old system. +I have done so, from a charitable feeling for the men in their +necessities. + +10,536. Did you think that in such cases you were likely to be +repaid?-In some cases I saw the urgency of the case, and I gave +the man supplies from sympathy, whether I might be paid for them +or not. + +10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain +repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was +not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because +if the men were paid their money I think they would feel more +independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the +most economical way, and thus be better off. + +10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so +very much into debt with any merchant as they are at present?- +I think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash +payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could +not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in +cases of urgent necessity. + +10,539. So that, if these very large accounts were not incurred, the +ordinary merchants, fairly competing, would not run so much +risk?-I think so. + +10,540. Do you think the large credits given by the fish-curing +firms tend to increase the risk to the small merchant in the country +who does not engage in fishcuring?-It may do so. I know that +after the years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight which I +have mentioned, or emergencies like that, the merchants, such as +Spence & Co., and others, had to lay out a great deal of money +from the urgent necessity of the case, and to supply families who +were almost starving. + +10,541. Has it been your experience that it is difficult for small +merchants to begin business and to succeed in Shetland?-I cannot +say that I have had much experience of that. + +10,542. Are you aware that some merchants have lately been +obliged to give up their business in Unst, in consequence of the +monopoly which had been obtained by a single firm?-I have +heard that stated; but I had a lease of the place where I lived, and +that did not apply to me. + +10,543. You gave up business voluntarily?-Yes. I found a farm +necessary for my family, and I thought I would be better with it. + +10,544. Do you think there has been a great improvement in the +condition of the people within the last twenty or thirty years?-I +think there has been. + +10,545. Have they got more money in their hands?-I believe the +present year has been a very good one [Page 256] for them; but +there were some seasons, a few years back, when it was different. +A great deal depends upon the returns from the fishing. + +10,546. But, apart from the variableness of seasons-because the +seasons have always been variable-and taking the state of +Shetland now and twenty or thirty years ago, do you think there +has been an improvement for the better?-I cannot say there has +been much in the way of improvement. Perhaps there has been +some. + +10,547. Are the people more independent now than they were +then?-I cannot say as to that. + +10,548. Do you think they are as dependent now as ever?-I +cannot say; the thing is so much fluctuating, because it depends +upon a year or two of failure in fishing and blight, and that brings +them down. + +10,549. About twenty or thirty years ago were not many of the +people bound to fish for their landlords or tacksmen?-I think +they were. That was the case twenty years ago fully more than it +is now. + +10,550. At that time they were actually bound by the conditions +under which they held their land?-I understand so. + +10,551. But now they are told they are free?-Yes. They know +now that they are at liberty to fish to whom they please; but I don't +know if that was the general notion before. + +10,552. That is, that they will not be turned out of their land if they +comply with certain regulations on certain estate + +10,553. But suppose Mr. Johnston were to start half a dozen boats, +would he get them manned?-I don't know whether he would get +so many as that, but he might. + +10,554. Suppose you were to start half a dozen boats, could you +get them manned?-I cannot say. + +10,555. Has anybody tried that within the last half dozen years?-I +am not aware that it has been tried. I believe the men understood +that they were bound to fish for the merchants who supplied them +with boats, and who gave them supplies for their families, and they +did not like to make a change. But now, when the men know that +they have their liberty so far, I suppose they would be inclined to +go to the merchant who offered them the highest price for their +fish. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN SPENCE, examined. + +10,556. You are the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I +am. + +10,557. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. +Sandison and Mr. Mouat?-Yes. + +10,558. Is there anything which you wish to explain further, or to +add to their evidence?-Perhaps I may be allowed to read a letter +which I wrote some time ago, and which shows my views and the +company's views with regard to the state of matters. It is a letter +which was written by me to the other members of the company, +and it is dated 29th January 1870. It is as follows: + +'Dear Sirs,-I have often spoken to you about adopting a cash +system in all our dealings with the people but none of you seemed +to think it would do. I of course would not press it in the +meantime, though I am always more convinced that it would be a +much better system than the present, and we should be gainers by +it to a very great extent, if wrought as it should be; and, depend +upon it, it will have to come in, and that not long to the time, +whether we will or not; so I would advise you to consider over it +more than you have done. It will take no more capital, but even +less than the present system does. + +'If after further consideration, you still think it would not do, could +it not then be possible that the price of fish could be fixed at the +commencement of the fishing? Be assured that we will be forced +into this, whether we will or not; and certainly it would be the +proper way. The price of everything else that we deal in is +generally fixed or agreed upon when the transaction is made, and +why not do so with fish? We do it with winter fish, and what is to +hinder us to do it with the summer ones? In no other part of the +world that we know of is there such a system as we have. Look at +the herring-curers south: I believe herrings would never keep at +such a high price were it not that the price is fixed at the first. If +we were to do the same with our fish, I have not the least +hesitation in saying that we should have them all away and into +cash as fast as they could be dried, because we should never keep +them on hand when we could get a safe price for them; and the +fact that we had got a certain price before we could be safe, would +prompt us the more to seek to obtain it, and buyers would come to +terms more quickly; indeed, the moment we agreed with the +fishermen, we could at same time almost enter into a contract with +a buyer or buyers for all our catch. It is often seen what a +disagreeable thing it is to keep a large parcel of fish hanging on in +the face of a fluctuating market, the chance being oftener against +us than in our favour; and fish, in particular, being such a perishing +article, the risk is very often great. Many other things could be +brought in in support of our fixing the price of green fish when the +fishing begins. If you do not think we could begin to it alone, it +could only be a trial to correspond with all the other curers, and +see if they would not join with Hay & Co., Adie, Anderson, Pole +& Hoseason, and any other you know of, and make the proposal. +Have a meeting of all the curers, say at Voe, or wherever it might +be thought best, and try the thing. I am fully persuaded that +circumstances, and that not long to the time, will compel us to it, if +not to the cash system. + +'Notice around you even and see how things are tending, and see +how opposition is creeping in-of course against us. The old +system we keep is the cause of it, to a good extent at least. Mr. +Sandison should correspond with some of the other curers; or +could you not ask Mr. Adie to come to Unst? I think we often +spoke of doing that before. I suppose he is friendly enough to us. +I am almost sure he would join us in the movement, and Pole & +Hoseason would do it, also Mr. Henderson. I trust you will give +this matter your consideration, if it should come no further. +Shetland is behind it long long way, and a new kind of political +economy is needed for it; and why should we not make the trial?- +When we formed into a company, everybody was made to +understand that there would be improvements in many things- +which I hope there is-but we should go forward, and not stand +still.' + +The whole of us, as a company, were very anxious to adopt this +system, but there were a great many difficulties that came in our +way which we could scarcely control. + +10,559. Were these difficulties raised on the part of the men?- +Not exactly. The men were anxious for the change, but they were +misled and influenced, and we could not get a fair start. With +regard to the old system of what may be called truck, I have +looked into my books about forty years ago, and I see that it was +the habit of all the fishermen then to prefer putting their produce +into the hands of the dealers, and leaving it there till the end of the +year for settlement. That has been altered by various things. I +object to the great number of small dealers, because I don't think +they develop the resources of the island to such a degree as they +might; but if a large firm or firms, with the tenants in their own +hands, and who are possessed of capital were to set about doing +that, the resources of the island could be far more easily +developed. + +10,560. Would a large firm of that kind, engaged in fish-curing, +not make a fair profit, and carry on business in a satisfactory way, +if it left the supply of shop goods, draperies, and provisions to +other dealers? Is it impossible in Shetland to separate between the +fish merchant's business and that of the drapery or provision +dealer?-I think it is perfectly possible; and I think it would be the +proper plan, that the fish-curing and dealing [Page 257] should be +perfectly distinct; but then there would require to be special +arrangements made for that purpose, in order to get it into working +order for the benefit of all classes. + +10,561. I suppose that at the summer stations, however, it is quite +necessary that the fish-curer should keep a supply of provisions for +his men?-Yes. + +10,562. But when the men are in their own homes, would it not be +quite possible for them to get their supplies from the ordinary +shops supported by private enterprise throughout the country, +without having recourse to the man who was employing them?- +Of course it would; and if that system was honestly carried out the +men would benefit by it, but if the trade was carried on by small +shops, looking only to pounds, shillings, and pence, that would do +the people injury. + +10,563. In what way?-Because it would increase the number of +small shops; and, as I say, these cannot develop the resources of +the island as they ought to do. They would only be drawing means +from the people which they could not apply in a proper way. For +instance, take the herring fishing: Messrs. Hay & Co. are the +principal herring-curers, and no small dealer could carry on that +business in the way they do. They are carrying it on just now at a +very heavy sacrifice, year after year, in the expectation that the +herring will come; but if Messrs. Hay & Co. were to give up the +business, and it were to fall into the hands of small dealers, there +would be nobody to receive herrings when they did come. + +10,564. Is not the herring fishing carried on only from Lerwick?- +It is sometimes carried on from here, when there are herrings on +the coast. + +10,565. But could not the fish-merchant make his arrangements +so as to derive a sufficient profit from the sale of his fish without +depending upon the profit that is derived from the sale of his +goods?-It would be perfectly possible to make an arrangement of +that kind; but the case of Shetland requires special arrangements in +consequence of its peculiar position. If the fish could be sent off +fresh to the market whenever the men came on shore with them, +and we had no more outlays upon them, then there might be a +profit; but, as things are now, we must lay in heavy stocks for the +incoming year. + +10,566. Heavy stocks of what?-Of fishing materials and salt. +Spence & Co. must now order perhaps 150 tons of salt; and if we +did not make arrangements with the men, that would become a +loss. + +10,567. But you could make arrangements with the men as early as +you please, although the men were not dealing with your shop?- +We expect the preference, because I hold, and can prove in various +ways, that the arrangement made with Mr. Walker was with a good +intention. I think co-operation in the Shetland Islands is far more +beneficial than competition. Competition between two poor +merchants does not do any good, but an immense deal of injury; +and I think that, before it cash system is entered into, a full and +thorough investigation should be made by the proprietors and the +principal dealers, in order to see how it can be made to work best +for the general good. The change can be made without injury to +any one, but it must be done a certain way, and that can only be +found out by such a special investigation as I have referred to. +Shetland is far behind, and I think the adoption of a cash system +would be the means of increasing the number of dealers who +would draw away the people's means and be a bar against +developing the resources of the country in a proper way. Some +of these dealers would be rubbed; the people would be poorer; and +no dealer even with capital would be inclined to go into the field +in such circumstances. If they did, it would need to be under some +sort of protective system; or if a dealer with capital came forward +he would have every chance of obtaining a monopoly, and he +might do great mischief. + +10,568. Is there not a monopoly at present?-No, we don't want it. +We only ask the fishermen to give us the preference, and any man +who has cash to get can get it at any time he likes. + +10,569. I don't doubt that; but is there any competition in the shop +trade in Unst just now?-There is no monopoly. + +10,570. Is there not a monopoly on Major Cameron's estate at +least?-It is not a monopoly. I say that what we aimed at was +rather co-operation; and if we got a fair chance there was a +prospect of the fishermen, if they had money, participating +along with us. + +10,571. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I +should like the men, if possible, to find boats for themselves. +It is not our fault that they don't own them. + +10,572. Do you encourage them to buy their boats?-Yes. + +10,573. Have you not succeeded in that?-Since we have formed +the company, we have had a great deal to contend with, and I have +been in ill health, and so many enemies have been created against +us, that with bad years we have found it difficult to go on; but I +hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement we +made was for the good of the tenants. + +10,574. But in what way has the opposition excited against you +prevented the men from buying their boats?-Any change in +Shetland, whether for good or ill, is sure to create opposition. + +10,575. Has the opposition you have met with been among the +fishermen?-No. If they are taken in hand properly, and made to +understand matters, I have always found them quite reasonable, +but they have been badly influenced. + +10,576. Has that influence been exercised by rival merchants?-It +has arisen perhaps from want of knowledge, and from parties not +knowing how such business should be carried on. It would be our +aim to allow the men to receive cash for what they earn, but there +are many difficulties which can only be rectified by proprietors +and us and the tenants together. + +10,577. Do you mean that the proprietor should place the +fishermen altogether into your hands?-If the motive is good, I +think that should be the case. At least we should prefer to have +the tenants to transact with us. + +10,578. But would it not be far better that the tenants should stand +on their own legs, and not be so entirely dependent on the large +companies?-It would be better; but that should be gone into with +great caution. + +10,579. Don't you think the fishermen are less independent now, +when there is only one large firm in Unst to whom they can deliver +their fish, than they were when there were three competing +merchants?-They may be in the meantime, but that always tends +to harm. + +10,580. What tends to harm?-Too much competition, because the +country is too poor for it. It would be far better for the proprietors +to take the men into their own hands to fish than to allow them to +go to number of small dealers.* + + *Mr. Spence afterwards wrote the following letter to the +Commissioner:- + 'Lest it may have been thought that in giving my evidence +before you I had approved of a monopoly, I now beg to send a +written explanation of what I meant, as I afterwards said to you I +would + 'There is nothing in a dealing way I so much dislike as a +monopoly. What I wished to be understood was, that no number +of small dealers, however willing, working as they do, can +improve Shetland as it would really need; but that in order to +develop the resources of the country thoroughly, it must be done +by quite different means. There is no doubt but that a change is +needed, but it should be merged into with caution, or it will do +harm to some class. Shetland appears to be so far behind, that the +people must serve an apprenticeship, as it were, to any change for +their good. It occurred to me that some good might be done by all +the dealers in Unst amalgamating, and by their united capitals +and efforts carrying on business and the fishings on at sort of +co-operative system; but it did not seem to be in accordance with +a free-trade system, and was never tried, though, if properly +conducted, I have no doubt it could have done some good. + 'In reference to the cash system, you would see in the letter I +read, and left with you, the views I have held. We have hitherto, +for various reasons found some difficulty in adopting it fully, but +we trust, ere long, to get it fairly introduced. One hindrance to us +getting it fairly wrought, is owing to the way we are bound to the +proprietors for the fishermen's rents. This also appears to those +who do not know the nature of the business, to be a monopoly; +because while we are thus bound we are compelled to a certain +extent, to restrict such men who, from extravagant habits or other +causes, cannot preserve their rents. It cannot be supposed that to +such [Page 258] men we can hand over money-perhaps to be +made a bad use of; and then, when rent time comes, have nothing +to get from them, and often not having got any rent for boats and +fishing materials. This is one thing in which there is great room +for improvement in Shetland. + 'As a member of a firm having the principal business in this +land, I would beg to state that our mode of dealing seems to be +greatly misunderstood by many; and it would be most desirable +that an impartial investigation into the books and transactions of +every other dealer in the island should be made, when, I have no +doubt, matters would look something different. With regard to the +fishermen, they are not bound to fish, and they were never told so. +I, for one, have urged upon them to improve their farms, so as to +enable them to be independent of fishing, which I consider to be a +most dangerous employment in such small boats. We pay them +cash whenever they want it and have it to get. We do not +monopolize our dealings. Could a proper investigation be made +in other shops, I can venture to say that, on the whole, we sell +cheaper than any other. Besides the other dealers in the island, the +steamer runs twice a week in summer, and once in winter, from +Lerwick to here; and if the people wish to avail themselves of it, +they can get their supplies as easily from there as here. A public +roup, advertised all over Shetland, is held once every year for the +sale of cattle and ponies, where there is perfect freedom to buy and +sell. There are many things we do for the people which are not +generally known. I shall only mention one thing, to show what we +have to combat with. 1868 and 1869 the fishings were small, and +the crops so blighted, that seed and meal had to be imported, +and given out on credit to a great many, or else they would have +starved. The effects of these two years tell against both the men +and us for some time, but such occur occasionally; and it is +dealers, standing as we do, that feel it most. We hold, as you are +aware, a lease of a large portion of this island, and we are bound to +see certain improvements carried out, which, being new here, +raises a hostile spirit against us by those who are not inclined to +see our island made better. We try to introduce any other +improvements that can be thought of, feeling assured that if we +can get them accomplished, the people will be in much better +circumstances than they are. While we are pressing these +improvements, small dealers draw away the means of the people, +preventing both them and us from getting so fast on as we would +otherwise do; and while we are using all reasonable means to try +to get the indolent not to sell what, of their own farm produce, they +really need themselves, as is sometimes done, the report is often +got up that we want to monopolize the business of the island, when +there is nothing of the kind ever thought of by us.' + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER NICHOLSON, examined. + +10,581. You are a fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick?-I +am. + +10,582. You hold land under Mr. Edmonstone of Buness?-Yes. + +10,583. And you fish for Spence & Co?-I fished for Mr. Spence, +but not for Spence & Co. I have not fished any for three years. + +10,584. Do you devote yourself entirely to your farm now?-Yes. + +10,585. Why did you give up the fishing?-Because I did not like +the sea. + +10,586. Were you quite content to fish for Spence & Co. if you +had continued at the fishing?-I would have been. + +10,587. Where do you get your supplies now?-From Spence & +Co. and other places, just where I can make the best bargain. + +10,588. Do you work at anything besides your own farm?-Yes, I +do day's work back and forward. + +10,589. Do you get your day's pay at the time?-Yes; if I ask it, I +get it. + +10,590. But you do not always ask it?-Sometimes I do not; +sometimes it will be two or three days, or a week, or a month, +before I get it. + +10,591. Who do you work for mostly?-For Mr. Spence. + +10,592. Do you keep an account at his shop?-Not much. If I +want anything I pay the money for it. + +10,593. But you have an account sometimes?-No, I never keep +one. + +10,594. Is there not an account in your name in his books?-Not +very much. I never keep a note of that myself. + +10,595. But there is something in his books against you?-Yes. + +10,596. And sometimes your day's pay is entered in that book +too?-No. I get money for my day's wages when I have asked for +it, or if I am working for some time it is entered in the book until I +get it, but all the money I have to get is given to me when I ask for +it. + +10,597. Then you just keep an account the same as fisherman +does?-Much the same. + +10,598. Only what is put down in your case is a day's pay or a +month's pay for work, instead of the price of fish?-Yes. + +10,599. Have you been going on in that way for three years?-Yes. + +10,600. Do you settle every year?-Yes, once a year, in January or +February. I have not settled for last year yet. + +10,601. Was there a balance against you at last settlement?-Yes, +about 10s. or 12s. + +10,602. Therefore you had no money to get?-I had money to get. +It is now that I have about 10s. or 12s. against me; but if I wanted +goods, and paid the money, I always got them. + +10,603. Do you get some money now and then?-Yes, I always get +it when I ask it. + +10,604. But you don't like to ask for much when you have an +account running against you?-No. I just get as much as keeps +me. + +10,605. Where do you sell the stock off your farm?-I sell them to +any man who gives me most for them, but it is few or none that I +sell on this island. There are parties who come into the island to +buy them, and usually sell to them. + +10,606. Why don't you get your day's work paid to you at the +time?-I would get it if I asked it. + +10,607. Why don't you ask it?-Perhaps because I am not needing +it at the time. + +10,608. Where do you get your supplies from besides Spence & +Co.'s?-At Mr. Johnston's. + +10,609. Do you pay the same price there?-Much about it. + +10,610. Is there any difference?-Not very much. + +10,611. Is there any difference at all?-I don't know; I have never +seen much difference. + +10,612. Is the price of meal the same at the two places?-I always +bought meal in bolls, and paid so much per boll. I bought some +from a farmer at Haroldswick, not from Spence & Co., and I paid +him 21s. per boll for meal off his own farm. I have not bought any +from Mr. Spence this year. + +10,613. Is there no oatmeal in your account?-No. + +10,614. Was there a balance in your favour at the last settlement +after you stopped fishing?-Yes; I think I had £12 to get. I think +my shop account for goods that year was about £4. + +10,615. Who is the farmer from whom you got that meal?-Mr. +Hugh Inkster. I gave him money for it when I bought it. + +10,616. Where did you get the 21s?-I got it from some ponies +that I sold, and from some money that I had saved before I left +the fishing. + +10,617. Did you sell these ponies to Spence & Co.?-I sold one to +William Manson, and another to Charleson, who comes from Yell +Sound. + +10,618. Do you sometimes buy your goods elsewhere than from +Spence & Co. and Johnston?-I sometimes get them from +Lerwick. + +10,619. Do you get them cheaper there?-Very little. I never send +for them unless I am going there myself. + +10,620. Did you ever fish for any one else than Spence & Co?- +Yes; I fished for the late Mr. Samuel D. Hunter, Lerwick. + +10,621. Were you paid by him in the same way every year?-Yes. + +10,622. You never were obliged to fish for any particular +person?-No. + +10,623. And you never were obliged to take your goods from any +particular shop?-No. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, DAVID EDMONSTONE, +examined. + +10,624. What are you?-I am factor on the Buness estate, and a +farmer. + +10,625. I understand you have had a great deal of experience of +business in Shetland?-Yes. I was nine years in business as a +fish-merchant, and I have lived in Shetland all my life, with the +exception of a year or two. + +[Page 259] + +10,626. Were you the writer of a letter which was quoted in the +evidence given in Edinburgh, Q. 44,511-Yes. + +10,627. Do you still retain the same opinions as are stated in that +letter?-I do. + +10,628. Do you think it is a correct statement at this time, that the +people do not receive in money one-fiftieth of their earnings?-In +the way I look at it, I think that statement is correct, because I hold +that when there is only a settlement once a year, in January or +February, and the man gets his balance then, that is not a cash +payment in any sense of the word. + +10,629. You mean that it is only a cash payment so far as the +balance is handed over to him?-Yes; and that he has not got +cash for fish or any other produce during the season. + +10,630. You don't doubt, I suppose, that a fisherman can get an +advance of cash during the season if he wants it?-No, I don't +doubt that. + +10,631. Do you think that advances or payments of that nature in +the course of the fishing season ought to be made compulsory, or +to be required by law?-Yes, I have long thought so. + +10,632. Do you think that would be practicable in the fishing +business?-I think so most decidedly, so far as my experience +goes. + +10,633. Have you any opinion to give with regard to the system of +combining land-holding with fishing in Shetland?-I think they +must be combined to a certain extent. I have thought a good deal +and I don't think a man can earn a sufficient livelihood by fishing +alone, because the weather in the winter time is so stormy that they +cannot often get out for many days, and sometimes for weeks. + +10,634. Would that difficulty not be removed to some extent if +larger boats were introduced, and the men were trained to the use +of them?-I think not. From the strong currents which run round +the shore, I think larger boats are not adapted to the coast. In fact, +I believe a good Shetland boat, well manned, would go through +what a much larger one would not go through. + +10,635. Do you know that to be the opinion of the best seamen in +Shetland?-I believe it is. For instance, the large boats used in the +neighbourhood of Lerwick for herrings have often been lost when +the common six-oared boats came safely. These large boats are +more unwieldy and more difficult to handle than the small ones. + +10,636. At what period are the rents on the Buness estate paid?- +At Martinmas. + +10,637. Is it necessary to fix the payment at that period, from a +consideration of the settling time between the merchants and the +fishermen?-Yes. It has always been the habit to pay the rents at +Martinmas. + +10,638. It is universal in Shetland, I understand, to pay the rents +only once a year?-Yes; the tenants have their holdings from +Martinmas to Martinmas. + +10,639. Can you explain why that arrangement has been made? Is +it from anything connected with the fishing?-I think so. The men +would then have an opportunity of completing their fishing and +getting all the sales made which they have to make, and then they +are supposed to be in funds. I suppose that is the reason, but I +don't know. + +10,640. Is it usual for the proprietor to enter into any arrangement +with the fish-curer for the payment of his rents?-We do that on +the Buness estate, and I should like to explain the reason of it. The +tenants have all been told that they are at perfect liberty to fish to +whom they like; but after they have engaged to fish to a certain +curer, we wish them to bring a guarantee from their curer or curers +for the rent of the year on which they have entered, and during +which they are to fish. One reason for that-in fact the only +reason-is, that the men do not get money payments, and therefore +a great number of them will be induced to run a heavy account at +the shop, and when we collect the rents at Martinmas we would +have nothing to get. If the men were paid in money, daily or +weekly or fortnightly, then we would make no such arrangement, +but would collect the rents directly from the men. + +10,641. Then, in fact, that arrangement is made in order to limit +the credit which the fish-merchant gives to his men?-Yes; and to +secure that we are to get part of that money. + +10,642. But it has the effect of limiting their credit?-Yes. + +10,643. Are you aware whether that is a usual arrangement in +Shetland?-I don't know. The Buness estate was in tack or lease +to tacksmen for twelve or fourteen years before 1868, first to Mr. +Hunter of Lerwick, and then to myself. Under that arrangement +we paid a certain amount for the estate, and made the best we +could of it. + +10,644. You took the risk of the tenants paying their rents?-Yes, +the entire risk. + +10,645. Did Mr. Hunter and you employ most of the men as +fishermen?-Yes, most of them. + +10,646. Do you think the effect of the present system is to +stunt trade, and keep other shops down except those of the +fish-curers?-I think so. + +10,647. Did you hear the evidence which Mr. Spence gave on that +subject?-Yes. + +10,648. Do you agree with his opinion that it would be better to +have one large monopolist than a number of small shops?-No, I +don't agree with that. + +10,649. You think that competition would be wholesome?-I +think so, if there were cash payments. + +10,650. Have you any reasons, within your own experience, for +maintaining that opinion with regard to Shetland?-I think, from +my own experience, that the people would be very much more +independent if they had cash in their hands. They are not entrusted +with cash just now, as a general rule. I know they get their +balances paid; but they are not entrusted with cash, and therefore +they are not independent. They are like schoolboys; they lean +upon other people, and I don't think that is a good system. When a +bad year comes, they expect that the fish-curer has to advance +them meal; and they will tell him that if he won't do it, they won't +fish for him again. In that way he must do it; in fact they think he +is bound to do it. They have no self-reliance or independence. + +10,651. Could they get supplies in any other way if the curer did +not advance them meal?-There are very few tenants who have +not stock of their own-cattle and horses. + +10,652. But these are liable to the landlord for their rent?-Yes; +and they are liable to be sold for supplies to themselves. + +10,653. Do you think that even in a bad year their stock might +carry them through?-I think so, in most cases. + +10,654. Is there any restriction on the Buness estate upon the +opening of new shops?-None whatever. + +10,655. Do you think it is possible for a shopkeeper to prosper in +Shetland who is not engaged in the fishcuring business?-I think +so. + +10,656. Even under the present system?-Yes; because there is a +good deal of money among the people, irrespective of the fishing. +They have their produce, and they are not compelled to go with it +all to the fishcurer. There are several shops in this island, the +keepers of which, I believe, are doing very well. + +10,657. Do you know anything as to the season at which these +shops have the largest sale?-I do not. + +10,658. Would it be a fair inference, from what you know of the +state of things here, to say that the receipts of these shops are +much larger in the spring, when the men have got a little cash at +settlement, than they are at other periods of the year?-I daresay +they are. I cannot speak of that from my own experience; but I +believe that these shops advance a number of the fishermen who +are fishing, perhaps, to Spence & Co. or others, and take the +chance of getting payment when the men receive their money. + +10,659. But that is a chance which comes to nothing, or falls +altogether, if the men happen to have run up a large account at +Spence & Co.'s shop?-Necessarily so. + +10,660. So that these dealers run a considerable risk in giving +credit at all?-Yes. + +10,661. Do you think a large firm, which is engaged both in the +shop business and in the fish-curing business, [Page 260] has a +great hold over the fishermen, so as to secure their services for the +fishing season?-That depends entirely upon the place and the +circumstances. If the firm has control over the men, from having a +lease of the lands on which they live, they must necessarily have a +great influence over them. + +10,662. But may such a control not be obtained merely by them +having, a number of the men in debt?-I believe it may. + +10,663. Are you aware of such control having been exercised by +fish-merchants in Shetland?-I have heard about it, but it is not +within my own knowledge. My own experience has been that +indebted men and bound men are the most difficult men to deal +with, and that a clear independent man is the man easiest to deal +with in every way. + +10,664. Is there any other general statement which you wish to +make with regard to the state of Shetland?-I don't remember any. +I would mention with regard to the Buness estate, that we have +offered leases to a great number of the tenants, but they don't seem +inclined to take them. + +10,665. Are you acquainted with the rules which have been laid +down on the neighbouring estate of Major Cameron?-Yes. + +10,666. Do you know how far the tenants have been adopting +them?-I believe they are working into them gradually. + +10,667. The lease in that case is rather a short one, is it not?-I +think it is too short for an agricultural lease, especially with the +obligations they are under. + +10,668. Do you mean with regard to peats and scattalds?-No; I +mean especially the obligations they are under with regard to +improvements. + +10,669. There are obligations to make certain improvements, and +to uphold and improve the houses?-I believe so. + +10,670. Do you think these obligations are a reason why the rules +and regulations have not been more generally complied with?-I +don't know. Of course it is very difficult to get a people who have +been accustomed to a particular system, and who are wedded to +their old ideas, to change; but I think the people here are now +beginning to see, after two or three years' trial, that it is to be for +their own advantage, and that they will go on with it. + +10,671. The leases which you offered on the Buness estate +were, I suppose, intended to introduce a similar system of +improvements?-Yes; but the tenants always seem to think that +if they sign a lease for fourteen or nineteen years they are binding +themselves. They would wish to be free to go any year they like, +but to have the proprietor bound not to turn them off. That, in my +experience, is the reason why leases are not popular as a general +rule. + +10,672. Can you give any information as to the ordinary diet of a +Shetland fisherman and his family?-I believe they live very much +better than the same class in England or in Scotland, or I should +perhaps say more expensively. + +10,673. What distinction do you draw between these two things?- +They use a great deal of tea and biscuit and loaf, which the same +class in Scotland don't use. + +10,674. I thought that loaves were generally unattainable in some +parts of Shetland?-They are not so in this island. + +10,675. Have they not to be brought from Lerwick?-Yes, but they +are brought in great quantities. + +10,676. Is not oatmeal the staple article of food?-They use it to a +great extent; but I don't think they use it in the form in which it +ought to be used. I don't think that too much tea and very little +bread is good for the working man. + +10,677. In what form is the oatmeal mostly used?-I suppose it is +used in bread, but I don't know exactly. I don't think, as it general +rule, they use porridge, which is the most economical way of using +oatmeal. + +10,678. Is a large quantity of fish used for the diet of the +fishermen?-I believe there is in summer time, and also +when it can be got in winter. + +10,679. Would you say that that is the principal article of diet +along with the oatmeal?-I should say that fish and potatoes were +the principal articles of diet. + +10,680. Is butcher meat sometimes used by them?-I believe it is +very seldom. + +10,681. But with fish, potatoes, meal, bread, and biscuits, the +population of the island are supplied to a sufficient extent?-Yes. + +10,682. And they are more than amply supplied with tea?-I think +so. + +10,683. Has there been an improvement on the houses within your +time?-I think there has. We tried to make the houses, when we +were building new ones, better than the old ones were. + +10,684. Are new houses upon the estates here generally built by +the proprietor?-Always, except when sometimes a man takes a +small bit of hill or scattald, and then he will make a small house +for himself. + +10,685. Is that often done?-Not often. + +10,686. Is that the origin of many of the houses now existing?-In +some parts of Shetland I think it is, but I don't think it is to a large +extent in Unst. + +10,687. In Unst the houses are more commonly built by the +proprietors?-Yes; because there are not in Unst a great +proportion of what are called offsets-places which have been +taken in from the bill. + +10,688. The island has been longer under cultivation?-I think so. + +10,689. Then you cannot speak generally of the character of the +house accommodation throughout Shetland?-I cannot. + +10,690. Would you think that here it is rather better than in other +places?-I think so. Unst houses are generally built 28 feet by 12, +and about 7 feet high and they contain two rooms. They are built +with stone and clay, harled with lime, and covered with thatch and +turf. + +10,691. In Unst I suppose the houses now have generally +chimneys?-Yes, mostly-one in each house. + +10,692. Is it in the middle?-No, it is at one end and many of them +have still an open fire at the kitchen end, sometimes in the middle, +and sometimes at the gable; but we have built chimneys to some of +the tenants in both ends. + +10,693. Where there is an open fire, what is the exit for the +smoke?-It goes through holes in the thatch left there for the +purpose. These holes are left for air, and to allow the smoke to +go out. + +10,694. Was that the ordinary character of the Shetland houses +until lately?-I think so. + +10,695. There were no chimneys?-No. + +10,696. Are the windows generally glazed now?-Yes; but in +many of the old houses they had no windows. + +10,697. Do some of these houses still exist in Unst?-I don't know +any now, but there may be some for anything I know. + +10,698. Are there any in other parts of Shetland?-I have seen +them in more remote parts of Northmaven, but that may be a year +or two ago. + +10,699. You cannot say whether that is a common style of house in +other parts of Shetland?-I cannot. + +10,700. Have you any observations to make upon the printed +evidence that was given in Edinburgh?-I think not. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Rev. WILLIAM SMITH, examined. + +10,701. You have been for some time the clergyman of this +parish?-For nearly three years. + +10,702. During that time you have been a good deal among the +people, and you are acquainted with the system that prevails of +long payments of wages, and of running accounts?-I am +acquainted with that from conversations with the men. + +10,703. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that +system on the character of the people in general?-[Page 261] I +have. I think the present system has a very deteriorating effect +upon the character of the people generally. I quite agree with what +Mr. Edmonstone has said in that respect. There seems to be a +great want of self-reliance, owing to the present system. + +10,704. The men are in the habit of looking to the merchants to +help them through bad season?-Yes, they are in the habit of +looking to the merchants and others. + +10,705. And I suppose they are not generally disappointed in that +reliance?-Not so far as I am aware. + +10,706. But you consider that that is not a wholesome thing?-I +think it is not. I have had experience of the same class of people, +living under a different system, and I have formed a decided +opinion in favour of the cash system of payments as compared +with the credit system which is carried on here. + +10,707. Was your experience in that matter in Orkney?-Yes; +among the same class of people. + +10,708. Were the employments of the people of the same character +there?-Their employments were similar, to a certain extent. +Further, I find very often a want of ready cash among the people, +and complaints are often made to me of a want of money for +payment of school fees and other matters. I found, in speaking to +one of the present proprietors, that his uncle had at one time from +£500 to £600 of savings deposited in his hands by his tenantry, but +now, so far as is known, there is little or nothing of that kind. + +10,709. Do you think there is no saving?-I don't hear of it. + +10,710. May it not be that the savings are deposited in another +quarter?-It may be, unknown to me, and I have no doubt there is +money in possession of many of the people, but of course they +endeavour to keep that secret as far as possible; and I think there +is a want of confidence between the tenantry and proprietors +generally, owing to the present system. + +10,711. How has the present system produced a want of +confidence between the people and the proprietors?-The +cause of that has been already explained in great measure by +previous witnesses. There is, as has been already remarked, a +monopoly here. There are small traders to whom their money +would go, and they don't do what is proper, I think, to the firm +who employs them. I have met them bringing goods from these +small traders, which they were morally bound to have got from +the larger merchants when their names were upon the books of +these merchants. Hence there is an endeavour at concealment very +often as to what they really have, and a want of proper faith. + +10,712. Do you mean that a person who is indebted to one of the +larger merchants is tempted to sell some of his stock to other +people?-I don't say that he is tempted, but that such cases have +often happened. + +10,713. You mean that a man often sells his stock, or anything +he has to sell, such as butter and eggs, to a small merchant, rather +than to the large one to whom he is indebted?-Exactly. + +10,714. Does he get money from the small merchant in that +case?-I don't know that he does; but the impression is generally +prevalent, that they may get goods of the same class from the +smaller merchant at a lower price, and I think the present credit +system does not enable the merchants who are in business here, to +sell articles with the same profit as merchants do elsewhere. I find +from my own experience that I can supply myself with the same +goods at a less cost by bringing them from a considerable distance +south, and by paying the expenses of the carriage, than I can buy +them here. I think it would work better for all parties, both +proprietors, fish-curers, and tenants, if such a system of money +payments as has been suggested could be introduced. + +10,715. Can you state whether it is universally the case, that +persons in Shetland in the rank of clergyman or small proprietor +do obtain their supplies out of Shetland?-That is invariably the +practice, so far as I am aware. + +10,716. Is that in consequence of a difference in price and quality, +or only in consequence of a difference in the price of the goods?- +It is in consequence of a difference both in quality and price. + +10,717. Do you speak as to that matter from your own +experience?-I do. + +10,718. Is there any other matter which you are prepared to speak +about with reference to this inquiry?-There is one thing to which +Mr. Edmonstone referred which I think is of some importance. I +think that if proprietors were letting their holdings directly to the +tenants, the tenants and proprietors coming into contact as they do +elsewhere, and the proprietor evincing in that way a greater +interest in his tenantry, the result might be a considerable benefit. +For one thing, there might be an improved class of dwellings. I +find a great want of proper arrangement in the dwellings here, and +a proper division of the sexes, and to that I attribute in a great +measure the amount of illegitimacy and immorality which +prevails. I don't think the houses which are occupied by the +common class of people here are equal to these occupied by +people of the same rank of life in other parts of the country. I +have seen several houses here which are at present without +windows, unless a pane of glass let into the roof may be called +such. At the same time, I think the people themselves might do a +very great deal towards improving their dwellings, provided they +were receiving weekly or monthly wages, as the case might be, in +prosecuting the fishing, and if they were encouraged to exercise +greater self-reliance. + +10,719. Have you known cases in which parties have been led into +debt greater than they could liquidate, by the present system of +long settlements?-I have. I have come personally into contact +with such cases. + +10,720. Have the people consulted you in their difficulties?-They +have; and I am aware personally of fishermen having contracted +debts which their survivors could not possibly liquidate. In the +case of men who have lost their lives by accident, I have known +that the firm by whom these men were employed have lost +considerably: that, I had reason to believe was in consequence of +the present system; and it was almost beyond the power of the +widows and children to liquidate the debt which had been +contracted. + +10,721. In such a case, is there no system of insurance existing, by +which the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund or some other society, +comes to the aid of these widows and children?-I regret that +there is not. I am aware that the men have been encouraged to +contribute by the agents of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, but +they have not availed themselves of it as I think they ought to have +done. + +10,722. Are there no agents for that Society in the island?-There +are two or three of them, two at least. One is in the merchants' +office and one is not; there may be others. + +10,723. But the men don't take advantage of that?-They do not, +to the extent which they ought. + +10,724. So that, in the case of a boat accident of that sort, resort +must be had, if the widows are destitute, either to poor-law relief +or to public subscriptions?-Exactly. + +10,725 In another part of Shetland I have had some evidence given +with regard to the appropriation of such subscriptions to pay debts +due by the fishermen who were lost. Are you aware of any such +cases having occurred in Unst?-I have been applied to in that +way when I was in charge of funds, but I have refused to make +use of the funds for that purpose, because I did not think that, +conscientiously, it was my duty to appropriate them in that way. + +10,726. You mean that you have been asked to apply funds so +subscribed to liquidate a debt due to the fish-merchant?-I have. + +10,727. But your opinion was that the subscribers had not intended +the fund to be applied for such a purpose?-Certainly it was. + +10,728. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I +should wish to remark that if a cash system were introduced, it +would not only have a beneficial effect generally upon the +community, but it would apply to [Page 262] all transactions +between the merchants and the people generally, so that no +negotiations between the merchants and people should take +place unless in cash. I mean to say, that where widows are +paid annuities, and where pensioners receive their quarterly or +half-yearly allowances, these should be paid in cash. I don't +attribute the fact that they are not paid in cash at present to any +design upon the part of the merchants at all, but I think it is the +result of a system which has been long continued here, and which I +think is very much to be regretted. + +10,729. Do you mean that any custom prevails according to which +annuities of that kind are not paid in cash?-Such a custom does +prevail. + +10,730. What sort of annuities do you refer to?-I refer to +annuities allowed to widows by Anderson's Trust, founded by the +late Mr. Anderson, M.P., and I refer to allowances which are paid +by the Inland Revenue to pensioners under the paymaster for the +northern district of Inverness. I believe that such pensioners do +receive payment of their pensions in goods. Of course that may be +done by consent of the pensioners themselves. I don't say that it is +done by design of the merchants, but I am aware that it does take +place. + +10,731. Who is the agent in these cases through whom the funds +are payable?-The collecting supervisor of Excise at Lerwick. + +10,732. Through what channel does he pay the annuities which +you refer to in Unst?-Through the merchants, as a convenience to +himself. + +10,733. He remits the money to the merchants, and the annuities +are taken out in goods?-Exactly. + +10,734. Are they credited in the accounts which are run by the +annuitants?-The annuities are very often taken out to nearly the +full extent of what they have to receive before their money comes. + +10,735. Are you in possession of that information from the +annuitants themselves?-I am. I think it is part of the general +system which prevails, to pay in that way. The people have +gradually drifted into it, and seem to look upon it as something +quite natural and reasonable. They have not been accustomed to +anything else. I have also met in with cases of men receiving +payment of days' wages by lines upon the shop, instead of +receiving a payment in cash and attribute that to the very same +thing. + +10,736. In these cases where days' wages were paid in goods, were +the men working for a farmer, or to the shopkeeper himself?-No, +they were working for contractors upon buildings. + +10,737. Is it the case that there is sometimes considerable +difficulty in making such payments in cash in Shetland from the +scarcity of silver money?-I have no doubt there is often some +difficulty in that way but I am never at a loss for silver money if I +have to make any payments to labourers or others, because I can +get a cheque cashed in silver by any small merchant to the extent +of £15 or £20 at almost any time. At least I have met with such +cases. I have not applied to the larger merchants for cash on such +occasions, but I have been offered silver to that extent by a small +merchant. + +10,738. Would there be any difficulty in getting change of a +pound at a large merchant's shop?-Yes, I have met with such a +difficulty. + +10,739. Why?-From the want of silver. + +10,740. Is that because they transact their business to such a large +amount by barter?-Yes; I attribute the want of silver, to a large +extent, to that. + +10,741. Are you expressing that opinion from a single instance, or +from a variety of cases?-From repeated instances happening +within my own experience in which I have not been able to get +change. I have not been able to get change at a large shop, but +very frequently I have got it at the smaller shops. The general +opinion is that a greater amount of the silver coin is to be found +with these smaller merchants than at the larger shops, and in that +opinion I quite concur. + +10,742. Are you speaking now of what you know to be the general +opinion, or of what you have found to be the case in your general +experience?-I am speaking of what I know to be the case from +my own experience. + +10,743. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of this +system upon the truthfulness and uprightness of the Shetland +character?-I have formed the opinion that it has a very bad +effect indeed upon the straightforwardness and truthfulness of +the character of the people in this part of Shetland, for of course +I have, had no experience elsewhere. I have found among the +younger portion of the population generally a desire or at least a +tendency, not to be so straightforward as one would wish. + +10,744. How does that arise from the system?-I think it arises +from it in this way?-Very often a fisherman or his wife may be +taking their produce to a small merchant, under the impression that +they will get a better bargain there than from a larger merchant; +and there is a general desire to conceal what their possessions may +be. I have found by experience that I have been imposed upon in +one or two instances with regard to that. + +10,745. But do you think that has occurred in more instances than +would have occurred in any other parish in Scotland?-I do think +so. I think that one great evil of the present system arises from the +people not feeling the value of what they purchase, because they +get it on credit here, and are led to use what the same class of +people do not use elsewhere. For instance, they use a great deal of +tea and fine flour, and fancy biscuits and preserves, and other +things of that kind. I think that has a very deleterious effect upon +the people themselves, because it encourages prodigality, and the +same earnings would go much further if laid out on different and +more wholesome fare. + +10,746. Do you think they take these things because they get them +on credit?-They get them on credit; and my belief is, they do not +feel it so much as if they were paying ready money for them. + +10,747. You mean they do not feel it except once a year?-Yes; +and I believe they would think more about it if they had to pay for +them in ready cash. + +10,748. Your knowledge with regard to the payment of annuities +and pensions. I presume arises from the fact that you have in +many cases to sign a certificate before the annuitant or pensioner +is entitled to receive payment?-Yes. + +10,749. You have to certify that the parties are living, and that you +know them?-Yes. + +10,750. Is there any other thing you wish to add?-Not that I +remember just now. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ROBERT GRAY, examined. + +10,751. Are you a fisherman here?-I am. I fish to Mr. Sandison +at the station. + +10,752. Where do you live?-I live at Snarravoe. + +10,753. You have heard the evidence to-day, and you desire to +come forward and make some statement yourself with regard to +the advances of meal you have received from Messrs. Spence & +Co?-Yes. I wish to say that if I had not been advanced by them +in two bad years, I must have starved with my family, because, I +did not have the means with which to buy supplies. + +10,754. Were you in debt to Spence & Co. at the beginning of the +two bad years?-Yes. + +10,755. And you continued to fish for them?-Yes. + +10,756. Have you got further into debt during late years, or have +you cleared any of your debt off?-I have got a little out of debt, +because I had some cattle to spare, and I had a bigger fishing; but +at the time when I had nothing with which to support my family +they supported us and paid my rent too. + +10,757. On whose property do you live?-On Major Cameron's +property. + +10,758. Then you paid your rent to him?-I paid my rent to him +until Spence & Co. took me into their service. + +[Page 263] + +10,759. Who did you fish for formerly?-Captain Cameron kept +the fishing when he was alive, and I fished for him, and at other +times I just fished for the man that I got the best bargain from. + +10,760. But at one time Captain Cameron held you bound to fish +for himself?-Yes. + +10,761. You now take your supplies from Spence & Co?-Yes; +and I could not be better supplied than I have been by them. + +10,762. You don't deal anywhere else?-No, except for any small +thing which I require; and if I have a penny or so I go into any +shop and buy. + +10,763. Do you get any cash in the course of the year?-I get it +when I ask for it. + +10,764. How much have you asked for?-I never could ask for +much because I was in debt, and I am in debt yet; but when I asked +for a little, I got it at any time. + +10,765. I suppose you have some money passing through your +hands at times?-It is not very much. I went south some years ago +and I had no money, and I wrote to those people to supply my +family while was south, and they gave them what they required. +10,766. Is that all you wish to say?-Yes. + + +Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, recalled. + +10,767. Do you wish to say anything further?-Yes. The reason +why the big shops have no change is, that they are daily paying for +produce and advances to their fishermen, and change is very much +wanted. I have often had to issue small checks for want of change +promising to pay them when I got the change. + +10,768. Is there any other person here who wishes to give evidence +or to make any statement? [No answer] Then I adjourn the sitting +here until further notice. + +<Adjourned>. + + +UYEASOUND: SATURDAY, JANUARY 20, 1872 + +CHARLES WILLIAMSON, examined. + + +10,769. You are a fisherman at Cullivoe in North Yell?-Yes. + +10,770. How long have you lived there?-I have lived for four +years at Gutcher. + +10,771. Where were you before?-At Mid Yell. + +10,772. Have you been a fisherman in Yell all your life?-No; I +have been south at sea half the time, and at the whale fishing. + +10,773. Do you do much in the winter fishing?-A good deal. + +10,774. You do a good deal more at that than your neighbours?- +Yes, a good deal. + +10,775. How much will you make for a winter and spring fishing, +before the regular haaf fishing begins?-Last winter I made about +£12, and in the spring £6. + +10,776. Have you made a good fishing of it this winter season, so +far as it is gone?-Yes, very good. + +10,777. Do you sell your fish as you land them?-No, I salt them +as I land them. + +10,778. Will you make as good a fishing of it this season as you +did last season?-I hope I shall. I have every prospect of doing so. + +10,779. You carry on that winter fishing with a small boat?-Yes, +with a small four-oared boat which I work with my two boys. + +10,780. You think you make a great deal more in the winter and +spring than any of your neighbours?-Yes, I have always done +that, because I devote my time to it exclusively. + +10,781. In fact you are more industrious and courageous?-I think +I have been that. + +10,782. Do you think it would be possible for a man here to live by +fishing all the year round?-I am living by it myself. + +10,783. Have you not a piece of ground?-I have a small piece of +ground, but it can do very little for me, because I am paying about +£12 of rent and rates. I have to buy all my livelihood in the course +of the year from my fishing. + +10,784. You do not depend much upon your ground?-No. + +10,785. Not so much as most of the tenants round about you?-I +do not. + +10,786. Is that because the rent you pay is higher than is paid by +others?-I have a better house than others, and that makes the +land higher. + +10,787. Do you think that if you had large boats here, such as they +have on the east coast, the fishing might be carried on all the +winter?-Not the Faroe fishing, or the fishing which is carried on +in the summer time. The deep-sea fishing could not be carried on +in winter, because there is such a heavy current. + +10,788. Do you think that even with the large boats, in which you +have a shelter for two or three of the men, it would not be possible +to carry on that fishing?-With the large boats we could hardly +work the lines in the way we work them now. + +10,789. Have you thought of trying that?-I have, and I am +thinking of trying it now. + +10,790. You are going to make an experiment about it this +season?-Yes; I am thinking about trying it now with a large +boat, such as are used along the Scotch coast. If I had a boat +like theirs, I think I could fish all March and all April and May. + +10,791. Do you know whether anything of that kind has been tried +before in Shetland?-There has been no attempt made in a boat +like that. + +10,792. But you believe there may be a fair chance of doing a good +business with it?-I should think there is. + +10,793. Do you think you could not go out to the haaf with a boat +like that in winter as you do in summer?-We would trust more to +her if she were decked over. + +10,794. Do you think you could manage to get out to the deep sea +with such a boat as that in winter?-Yes, we could manage to get +there; but the difficulty would be to manage the sailing in of our +lines. The way we do just now is to haul them in. + +10,795. You mean the difficulty is to take in your lines with the +boat sailing?-Yes; the same as they do on the Scotch coast. + +10,796. Your practice in Shetland is to haul in your lines while +rowing, and never to haul them in while sailing?-Yes; we +sometimes set them while sailing. + +10,797. But you believe you could learn to haul them in while +sailing also?-Yes. + +10,798. Are the lines you use of the same kind and the same length +as are used on the east coast?-The lines we use are 42 fathoms to +the length of line, and we use hundred of these lines. + +10,799. Is it long since you were at the whaling?-I think the last +year I was there was 1864. + +10,800. How were you engaged that year?-I was engaged in Mr. +Tait's office, in Lerwick. + +10,801. Did you get your outfit from him?-I got my advance; I +did not need an outfit. + +[Page 264] + +10,802. Had you been there before?-Yes, often. + +10,803. Had you an account with Mr. Tait that year?-Yes, I had +several accounts. + +10,804. Was that for your own supplies at home?-Yes; they +required a little while I was away. + +10,805. I suppose you always had an account with the agent who +engaged you for the fishing?-Yes. + +10,806. At that time I believe these accounts were generally +settled in the agent's office and the amount of your account was +deducted from the payment of your wages and the first payment of +oil-money?-Yes. + +10,807. And you settled the final payment of oil-money at any time +that suited you when you were in Lerwick?-Yes. + +10,808. Was the settlement of your account made when you landed +from the ship?-Yes; if we chose to make it there and then, we +could do so. + +10,809. But it was very often later?-Yes, pretty often. I cannot +say how much it was later. If I came into Lerwick, and the packet +was ready to leave, so that I had not time to carry through a +settlement then, I would go home, and then I would return in about +a fortnight or so, and have a settlement made. + +10,810. How was the second payment of oil-money made to you? +Was it in cash?-Yes, generally it was in cash. + +10,811. Did you sometimes get it in goods?-If I wanted goods I +could get them, but I was commonly paid in cash. + +10,812. When you were to settle for your first payment, I suppose +you generally had some small account standing?-Yes. + +10,813. Where was it settled?-In the office. + +10,814. Was the office beside the shop?-Yes. + +10,815. Was it always with Mr. Tait that you engaged for the +whale fishing?-No; I have been out for Mr. Leask too. + +10,816. Did both of these gentlemen have their offices in the +shop?-Yes. + +10,817. When you went into the shop were you generally asked if +you wanted anything?-Yes; commonly we were asked that. + +10,818. Was that before the settlement or after it?-It was after we +had done settling, and when we had money coming to us. + +10,819. Had your money been paid to you before that?-No. + +10,820. But when you found out the total that was due to you, you +were asked whether you wanted any goods?-Yes. + +10,821. And you would generally take something else?-I did not +take very much myself. I always got the money. + +10,822. When you went to settle for your final balance, were you +also asked whether you wanted anything?-It was always when I +came down again to go to Greenland, or to go south, that I got it. + +10,823. At that time you would want some supplies to be sent +home?-Yes. + +10,824. And if you wanted anything of that kind, it would be set +down against your next account?-No, it was set down against the +second payment of oil-money, if we had so much coming to us. + +10,825. What you have been describing was the ordinary practice +during all the years you were at the whale fishing, both for Mr. +Leask and Mr. Tait?-Yes, and for Messrs. Hay also. + +10,826. Did you sometimes engage with Messrs. Hay?-Yes. + +10,827. Do you think it would be better to have your fishing paid +by monthly payments, according to the quantity delivered, and at a +price fixed at the beginning of the season, rather than to have the +long accounts you have now?-I don't know that, upon the whole, +it would be any better for myself; and I can only speak for myself. +Those whom I have been serving for the last three years have +given me money whenever I wanted it. + +10,828. But don't you think you would have the money more +under your own command if you were paid monthly or +fortnightly?-I could not say that I would have it more under +my own command, because they give it to me whenever I ask +for it. + +10,829. I suppose the merchants are always very glad to get you to +fish for them?-I suppose they are. + +10,830. Are you not about the best fisherman in the islands?-I +have heard that said since I started. + +10,831 And I suppose you have generally a balance to get at the +end of the year above the supplies you have got?-Yes, +sometimes. + +10,832. Who do you fish for?-Spence & Co.; I have done so for +the last three years. + +10,833. Do you get all your supplies at Uyea Sound?-Yes, except +occasionally when I send down for anything to Lerwick. + +10,834. Do you think you get any advantage in price or quality by +sending to Lerwick for your goods?-I do not. + +10,835. I suppose you get all money if you ask for it?-Yes. +10 836. And you don't require to take any supplies from Spence & +Co. unless you wish?-No; I only take meal and oil-cloth, and the +like of that. + +10,837. But you might get all your pay in money if you wished, +and be able to buy your goods anywhere else?-Yes, I could get +every cent of my money if I wanted it. + +10,838. Is it entirely of your own choice that you deal in the +shop?-Entirely. + +10,839. Where is it that boats are most commonly lost on the coast +of Shetland? Is it at sea or in the sounds?-It is when we come in +towards the land. We fish fifty or sixty miles dead off the land, +and we will come in within ten or twelve miles of the land before +we get into any danger. Then we come in upon the tides. + +10,840. Therefore, if you were out at the haaf in your large boats, +these boats might live through any storm?-Yes; a large boat +could keep outside and not require to come in to involve herself in +the tides, but when we have a small boat we are forced to come in. + +10,841. A man cannot stay outside in these small boats?-No; the +weather is always getting worse, and the sea getting higher and +higher on them, and they must run for the laud. + +10,842. But with a larger boat you might run out to sea in a +storm?-Yes. + +10,483. Do you do that sometimes with your small boats, and +escape?-Yes. + +10,484. You think that is often a better course to take than running +for the land in a storm?-Yes; the summer breezes are not very +long. + +10,845. But do you do that in a winter storm?-In winter we do +not go very far off the land in our small boats. + +10,846. But in a winter storm with one of the large boats you are to +try, you think you may run off to sea and be comparatively safe?- +I think so. + +<Adjourned>. + +[Page 265] + +LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 22, 1872 + +WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined. + +10,847. You are cashier and principal clerk to Mr. Joseph Leask, +merchant, shipowner, and agent in Lerwick?-I am. + +10,848. You have been for nineteen years in his business, during +which time you have been employed in shipping and discharging +seamen, engaging and settling with fishermen, and employing and +paying hundreds of labouring people?-I have. + +10,849. You are also fully acquainted with the barter system as it +prevails in Shetland?-I am. + +10,850. I understand you desire to be examined with regard to the +Report furnished to the Board of Trade in September 1870 by Mr. +Hamilton, as well as on certain questions and answers in the +Report of the Commission, of which you have given me a list?-I +do. + +10,851. Will you give me, in the first place, a general description +of Mr. Leask's business? He is, I believe, a proprietor of land to +some extent in Shetland?-Yes, and he is also a pretty large +proprietor of house property in town. + +10,852. What estates does he hold?-He has estates in West and +South Yell, Ulsta and Coppister. + +10,853. Has Ulsta been long in his possession?-I think about ten +years, but I could not exactly say. + +10,854. What is the extent of his estates in Yell?-There are about +fifty tenants on the Yell property, and the annual value is upwards +of £200. + +10,855. I understand that in Yell Mr. Leask now carries on the +fishing to a considerable extent?-He has only commenced in the +past season to carry out the fishing in Yell on his own account. + +10,856. Has he a station and shop there?-He has now. He +commenced them at the beginning of this year at Ulsta. The +shopkeeper is William Hughson. + +10,857. How many boats were employed there last year?-Four. + +10,858. Are the fishermen bound to fish for the proprietor?-They +are not bound to fish. They requested Mr. Leask to employ them +last year, and it was at their own request he did so. + +10,859. Who was the fish-curer at that station previously?- +William Jack Williamson, and James Johnston. Williamson lived +at Ulsta, and Johnston at West Yell Sound. + +10,860. Was the request you have mentioned from the fishermen +to Mr. Leask to employ them a written one?-No; it was verbal. + +10,861. How was it conveyed to you?-By the people themselves. + +10,862. By how many of them?-By about half dozen or thereby; I +cannot state the number exactly. + +10,863. Did they come to Lerwick for the purpose?-They always +come to Lerwick in November to settle their rent accounts; and in +November 1870 a few of them requested Mr. Leask to build boats +for them, and they would fish to him rather than to Johnston and +Williamson. + +10,864. Had Williamson given up business at that time?-No. + +10,865. Had he still a shop and curing station at Ulsta?-Yes. + +10,866. In consequence of the request made to you by the men, +what steps were taken to take over the business at Ulsta?-The +business was not taken over at all. Mr. Leask simply built boats +for three crews, and employed three masters to obtain crews at +Ulsta and West Yell. One boat belonged to Ulsta, and the other +two to West Yell. + +10,867. Did Mr. Williamson hold premises from Mr. Leask on the +Ulsta estate?-Yes. + +10,868. He paid rent for them, but he had no lease?-No. + +10,869. Did he receive notice that his tenure was at an end?-Yes; +he received notice of that verbally two years or year and a half +before he had to leave. + +10,870. Had he received it before the verbal requisition was made +by the fishermen to Mr. Leask that he should take them into his +service?-I think so; but I could not be sure. + +10,871. Was it in the contemplation of Mr. Leask to commence +business there himself, at the time when he gave Williamson the +first notice to leave?-I am not quite sure. I think he was not sure +about it himself, whether he would commence business there on +his own account, or let the premises to another party. The matter +had not been fully considered; but I think Mr. Leask had it in +contemplation to make some change, because the Yell people +were not altogether satisfied with the state of matters at that time. + +10,872. And the requisition made by the six fishermen had the +effect of bringing him to a decision?-I suppose it had; at any rate +it helped. The men were all of opinion that they would be better +served by Mr. Leask, than by any person whom he might send +there. + +10,873. Were the fishermen under any obligation to fish for +Williamson?-I don't think they were bound. + +10,874. Was there any understanding when he took his premises, +that the fishermen on that estate should fish for him?-No. Mr. +Williamson was on the estate before Mr. Leask bought it; and after +Mr. Leask bought it the men were at liberty to go wherever they +pleased, either to fish at home or to go to Greenland, or to go +south, or anywhere they liked. They were not bound in any way. + +10,875. But when they did go to the home fishing, were they at +liberty to sell their fish to any one they chose?-The boats +belonged to Williamson, and of course they would be bound to +give him the fish. + +10,876. But were they at liberty to go in the boats of any other +fish-curer?-Yes; they were at perfect liberty to fish for whom +they pleased, so far as the landlord was concerned. + +10,877. Was there any written lease of the premises to Williamson +at any time?-He never had any written lease, so far as I am +aware. + +10,878. If there had been a written lease at the time when Mr. +Leask bought the property, you would have been aware of it?-I +think so. + +10,879. It would have come into your hands along with the other +writings relative to the estate?-Yes. + +10,880. Either before or after the application of the West Yell +tenants to Mr. Leask, was any intimation made to the rest of the +tenants on that estate, or to the whole of them, that he (Mr. Leask) +was about to open a shop there himself, and to receive fish?-The +men who made the representation to Mr. Leask were given to +understand that he would build boats for them; and when they +went home they spread the report that Mr. Leask intended to do +that. + +10,881. Was any written intimation made to the tenants to that +effect?-None that I know of. + +10,882. Or any verbal intimation other than you have now +mentioned?-The masters of the boats were to go and engage their +own crews. We appointed masters, and they went among the +tenants to engage whom they could get. + +10,883. What instructions were given to the masters?-They were +engaged on the same terms as usual, and they were to be paid in +the same way. + +10,884. But what instructions were given to them about telling the +tenants?-There were no special instructions given at all. + +[Page 266] + +10,885. Were they desired to inform the tenants that Mr. Leask +was undertaking the fishing himself, and that he expected the +tenants to engage in his boats' crews?-At that time Mr. Leask +could get more men amongst his tenants than he could employ, +and there was no need for any pressure. More men were anxious +to go than he had boats for at that time. + +10,886. Had you any correspondence with Mr. Williamson about +him leaving Ulsta?-Yes, a very long correspondence, and rather +an amusing one. He implored Mr. Leask to allow him to remain +for another year, as his business was so extensive that he could not +wind it up in so short a time. + +10,887. What was Mr. Leask's objection to allow him to +remain?-He required the premises as a dwellinghouse for the +incoming man, William Hughson; and of course it would not do +to have opposition. + +10,888. But he had made no arrangements for that at the time +when Williamson was requested to prepare for removal?-He +had not. + +10,889. Then when was the correspondence? Was it when +Williamson first got the notice or afterwards?-It was not until +long afterwards. I think Williamson was of opinion that Mr. +Leask would not remove him, and he trusted to that until the +very last. I think he had some idea of getting the new premises, +notwithstanding what had passed. + +10,890. Were new premises built?-Yes, they were built last year. + They were begun in June and only completed in December 1871. + +10,891. Was Williamson still carrying on the fishing in 1871 while +these new premises were being built?-Yes. He was fishing and +carrying on the business the same as before. + +10,892. How many men had he fishing for him last year at +Ulsta?-I think he had about the same number of boats that he +had formerly. + +10,893. And he still had the same premises?-He occupied the +same premises all along. The premises which Mr. Leask is +occupying now for business purposes are altogether new. +Williamson continued to occupy the old premises until November +1871, when he had to leave. + +10,894. Where did he manage to get fishermen when Mr. Leask +had put on three new boats?-I think he got some from Mr. +M'Queen's estate, and also some of Mr. Leask's own tenants. + +10,895. Does Mr. Leask intend to put on a larger number of boats +this year?-I think he intends to put on one or two more. + +10,896. But the boats' crews that he employed last year had +formerly been in the employment of Williamson and Johnston?- +Yes. + +10,897. Is Johnston still carrying on business?-Yes, he is carrying +on business at Sound, in West Yell, where he has a small property. + +10,898. Do you know how many boats he has?-I think he has +two but I am not sure. Some of Mr. Leask's tenants fished for +Johnston last year also. + +10,899. Will Mr. Leask's tenants be allowed to fish for Johnston +and Williamson in future?-I don't think they would do so if Mr. +Leask would give them employment. + +10,900. But will they be allowed to fish for any other than Mr. +Leask?-I don't think Mr. Leask would force any one to fish for +him. + +10,901. The tenants have received no intimation to the contrary?- +No. + +10,902. And no hint?-No hint whatever. In fact, there were +tenants applying in November last for new boats, and requesting +Mr. Leask to build new boats for them, because there are a good +many men who would like to be employed by him, in preference to +being employed by Johnston or any other body. + +10,903. Do you know whether many of the men were in debt to +Williamson when he left Ulsta?-I don't know. + +10,904. Was that one of the reasons why Williamson was anxious +not to quit in a hurry?-He alleged that reason; but I am of opinion +that there were not many of them in debt. + +10,905. Did he ask you to relieve him of any of these debts?- +Never. + +10,906. Do you suppose he has any chance of recovering any debts +that may exist now?-Certainly he has. The men have all got +effects of some kind or another, so that he may easily take them +into court and recover what they are due him. They are all in very +good circumstances; there are none of them who could not pay +their debts. + +10,907. Has Mr. Leask any property in Sandsting?-Yes; he has +the property of Sand and Inner Sand. There are between 40 and 50 +tenants upon it. + +10,908. Are most of them engaged in the summer fishing?-A +good many of them are. Some of them fish for Garriock & Co., +and some for Mr. Leask, and I think some for Charles Nicholson. + +10,909. Is that property in the south side of the parish?-Yes; it is +near Reawick. + +10,910. Has Mr. Leask any station in that district?-No. + +10,911. Then where do they fish for him?-They go in some of his +vessels to the Faroe fishing. He has no home-fishing station in +Sandsting. + +10,912. Are they at liberty to go to the home fishing or to the Faroe +fishing for anybody they like?-Yes. They are under no obligation +to fish for Mr. Leask. They can go where they like, and they have +always done so. + +10,913. Do they hold their land as yearly tenants?-Yes. + +10,912. What other property has Mr. Leask?-South Whiteness, to +the north-west of Scalloway, in the parish of Tingwall. I think +there are about seventeen or eighteen tenants on that property. +They fish principally for Mr. Leask in the Faroe fishing, and in the +spring fishing, which occupies about a month or a little more. + +10,915. Then they are not generally engaged in the home +fishing?-No; they are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing. + +10,916. How many of them may have gone to that fishing last +year?-There may have been above a dozen. + +10,917. These men, I presume, have accounts at Mr. Leask's shop +at Lerwick?-Yes. + +10,918. Is there any stipulation made with them that they shall +man his Faroe smacks?-None. They are not bound at all. They +may go where they please and engage themselves with whoever +they please. + +10,919. Has Mr. Leask any other properties in Shetland?-He has +some small properties in other places-in Quarff, North Roe, and +Aithsting. He has two tenants in Quarff, three in Aithsting, and +one in North Roe. These tenants do not fish for Mr. Leask at all, +and never have done so, or been asked to do so. + +10,920. Then Mr. Leask's business consists in sending smacks to +the Faroe fishing?-Yes. + +10,921. And in sending boats to the summer fishing?-Now it +does, but not formerly. It was only last year that he commenced +the home fishing at Ulsta. + +10,922. Has he commenced that business anywhere else?-No. +Ulsta is the only summer-fishing station that he has. + +10,923. Mr. Leask is also engaged in the whale fishing, both as an +owner of ships and as an agent?-Yes. + +10,924. I believe it is specially with regard to the agency business +that you wish to make some statement?-Yes. I wish to make a +statement with regard to Mr. Hamilton's Report to the Board of +Trade in November 1870. Some of it is so utterly absurd that I +should like to have it contradicted. He says, 'I ought to mention +that the truck system, in an open or disguised form, prevails in +Shetland to an extent which, I believe, is unknown in any other +part of the United Kingdom.' Now, that I deny <in toto>; and I +think I will be able to prove before I am done that it is not correct. +'And makes its depressing influence felt in all the ramifications of +the industrial and social life of the natives.' + +10,925. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt +to some shopkeeper; and not only is [Page 267] the head of the +family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of +his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for +whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' Is +that the case?-There may be some cases of that, but it is not +general. I deny that almost every fisherman in the islands is in +debt. Then he says, 'These fishermen, for the most part, also rent +small farms of from three to four acres.' That also I deny Mr. +Leask has about 120 tenants, and I think the average quantity of +land they hold is about twelve acres of enclosed ground, besides +common. + +10,926. What is the amount of their rent?-The rent is something +less than 10s. an acre, on the average. Some have as much as +twenty-three acres, and in some cases they have about seven. The +rental I have given is for the enclosed ground within the township; +and in addition to that, the people have extensive commons. + +10,927. On Mr. Leask's estates are the scattalds still left to the +people without any payment?-Yes, except in Yell, where +they have to pay 6d. per annum for every sheep. They also pay +something for ponies, but nothing for cattle. + +10,928. I omitted to ask whether Mr. Leask has the management of +any properties except his own?-No. + +10,929. He is not tacksman of any property, and he holds no +property in lease?-No. I may mention that he has an assignation +of the rents of a small property in Mid Yell, in security for debt. +The rents are paid regularly, and he has nothing to do with the +tenants except to draw their rent at the term. + +10,930. Then what you deny in that sentence of Mr. Hamilton's +Report is merely his statement as to the extent of the holdings of +the men?-Yes. I hold they are three or four times larger than he +says. + +10,931. In the same sentence he adds, 'And it is from them (that is, +the fishermen) and from their sons that the crews of the whaling +vessels are mainly drawn.' Is that the case?-I don't deny that at +all. It is quite true. + +10,932. Is it also true that there are no whaling vessels belonging +to Lerwick-that they belong principally to Dundee, Peterhead, +and Hull, and that the owners of these vessels engage large +portions of their crews at Lerwick through agents?-Yes. + +10,933. Is it also true that these agents get little direct profit from +their agency?-They get 21/2 per cent. commission on the gross +wages paid through them. + +10,934. Do you consider that an adequate remuneration?-It is not +nearly an adequate remuneration for the amount of trouble they +have; but it has been the practice to pay that, and there is so much +competition amongst the agents that it has brought it down. I +believe it was formerly 5 per cent. + +10,935. I believe there are only three or four agents in Lerwick, +and that the commission is fixed by mutual agreement between +them and the shipowners?-Yes. It has always been 21/2 per cent. +within my recollection. + +10,936. Is it the competition that prevents the commission from +being raised to such a figure as would be a sufficient remuneration +in itself?-Yes. + +10,937. The agents are engaged in business as shopkeepers and +outfitters?-Yes. + +10,938. Then it is the case that they have little direct profit from +their agency; and Mr. Hamilton goes on to say, 'Their chief profit +arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men.' Is +that statement correct?-I think some of them make very little +profit indeed from the men. They sell their goods as cheap, if not +cheaper, than other shopkeepers do; they give credit to the men, +and sometimes they lose a good deal of it through bad debts when +there is a bad voyage. + +10,939. Is a bad voyage in the whaling a thing of frequent +occurrence?-It is very frequent, especially in the seal fishing. + +10,940. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'Many of the men engaged are +utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide +themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage?'-That is +often the case with young hands. They come here without any +clothing, and require perhaps from £5 to £6 worth in order to fit +them out for the Greenland voyage. The wages for young hands +are about £1 a month, and 1s. per tun of oil. When they have no +success, they are back in about a month and a half; that is only 30s. +they have to get, and that is all the agent has for his advance. + +10,941. You are speaking now of the sealing voyage?-Yes. It +only occupies about five or six weeks with the steamers. + +10,942. But when a man goes on a sealing voyage of that kind, is +he taken for the whaling voyage afterwards?-Sometimes, but +sometimes not. + +10,943. Do many of them only go to the sealing voyage?-Yes. +Last year the majority bargained for the sealing voyage only, and +did not go on the whaling voyage. Some of them re-engaged +again, but many of them did not. + +10,944. But, as a rule, do one-half of them engage for a second +voyage after the sealing voyage was over?-I should say they do. + +10,945. And many of them, I suppose, engage for a whaling +voyage, who have not been at the sealing voyage at the +commencement of the season?-That is sometimes the case. + +10,946. How many men have you engaged for the last four or five +years for the sealing voyages?-I could not say exactly for the last +four or five years, but last year we engaged 207 for the sealing +voyage, and 80 for the whaling, or 287 altogether. + +10,947. Is not that an unusual proportion between the sealing and +whaling voyages?-Yes. In former years we used to engage more +for the whaling, and fewer for the sealing; but last year the owners +took it into their heads to engage the men only for the sealing, and +discharge them at the end of that voyage; and then, when the +vessels were going to the whaling, they re-engaged only such +men as they wanted. + +10,948. What was their reason for that?-I suppose they were +trying to economize. I don't know whether they economized or +not, but it must have been with that view they tried it. + +10,949 Are the crews larger in the sealing voyages than in the +whaling?-They are. I should say that ten men fewer per ship +are required for the whaling than for the sealing + +10,950. How many ships would these represent?-Seven for the +sealing, and four for the whaling. + +10,951. So that you had three ships fewer under your care for the +whaling than for the sealing last year?-Yes. + +10,952 How did that happen? Did the ships not go to the +whaling?-The 'Esquimaux' did not call here for men last year. +The 'Victor' did not go at all to the whaling, and the third one +remained at the sealing the whole season. + +10,953. Then, in one ship the men you engaged would be +employed through the whole season for the sealing?-Yes. +That vessel tried whaling for a short time but I suppose it did +not succeed. + +10,954. You say that when a young man goes to the sealing at first, +he incurs a larger debt for outfit than the whole amount of his +wages?-Very often he does. + +10,955. So that the merchant who engages him is often a serious +loser, having no security in the shape of wages?-He risks his +goods on the success of the voyage, and when the voyage is +unsuccessful, he comes out a very serious loser occasionally. + +10,956. But the man remains in his debt and may pay it up in a +subsequent year?-Very often he does not. When a man gets into +debt, we generally lose him. He goes to some other agent, or he +goes south. + +10,957. Is he more likely to go to another agent when he is in +debt?-Yes. We very seldom get a man back again who is in +debt to us. + +10,958. How does that affect Mr. Hamilton's statement?-He says, +'The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for +those who are in their debt.' Now we very seldom or never get +them employed again when they once get into debt, and therefore +it is our interest not to allow them to get into debt, if possible. + +10,959. But you would be very glad to get employment for such a +man if you could?-If we could get him employment we would be +very glad; but they take [Page 268] very good care not to allow us +to catch them. Of course, there are some of them who pay their +debts, but that is the exception. I am now referring to the young +hands-those who get into debt on their first voyage. + +10,960. When a man of older standing gets into debt, is he more +likely to pay up in a subsequent year?-Yes. A man whose family +is settled here is more likely to pay up. + +10,961. Of course, in his case, you are not only interested in +getting employment for him, but he also is anxious to get +employment through you?-Yes, it is a mutual accommodation; +but there are very few of the old hands in debt. It is principally +among the young men who make unsuccessful voyages that +anything of that kind happens. Then we come to a very serious +mistake which Mr. Hamilton makes. He says, 'Even those men +who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able +to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeepers, are +practically debarred from doing so; for any man who carried his +custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, +would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that +particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the +news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are +more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any +employment again.' Now, it is nonsense to say, that there are +often more men than berths. We have often had to go and search +for men, and ships have frequently had to go on their voyages +short of men. That has often occurred within the last nineteen +years to my knowledge. I have seen vessels lying here for day +after day, when we were searching for hands and could not get +them, and after all they had to leave short-handed. + +10,962. Did that occur last year or the year before?-No; it has not +occurred for it year or two, but five years ago it occurred in the +case of the 'Jan Mayen.' The first year she was a steamer, which +was five years ago, she had to go short-handed, because the men +were so scarce. + +10,963. Do you know of any other ships which have had to go +to the fishing short-handed?-They have gone short-handed, +although I could not just remember them. I know that in 1854 +or 1855 a number of them were short-handed. + +10,964. Was there any particular reason why that was the case in +1854 and 1855?-There were more ships than men. I believe the +Russian war was the principal cause of it. + +10,965. Had a number of Shetland men gone into the navy at that +time?-They had gone south, not perhaps into the navy; but there +was it great demand for men in the merchant trade. For the last +two or three years, also, the men have not been in excess. When +the ships were done, the men were generally done too, so that they +were about equally matched. + +10,966. You refer to the statement in the Report: 'Any man who +carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent +employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man?'- +Yes; I deny that most emphatically. + +10,967. Is it the case that the men generally get what outfit they +require at the shop of the merchant engaging them?-It is +generally the case, but we engage plenty of men who go elsewhere +to buy their goods. They are good men, and we are glad to get +them back again. We never care a straw about whether they buy +goods from us or not. + +10,968. Are these men who have money of their own?-Yes. We +give them their first month's advance in money, and they can go +where they like. + +10,969. What proportion of the men spend their month's advance +elsewhere?-I don't think there is large proportion of them who do +that. We generally find that we get on pretty well with the men, +and that they prefer buying their goods from us. They tell us, but I +don't know for the truth of it, that they get better value in our place +than they get elsewhere. + +10,970. Suppose a man gets his outfit from another agent, or from +another shop, and comes back to you next year, is there any note +kept of him having done so?-Never. There are several men who +do that regularly, and we never quarrel them for it. They are good +men and we don't like to lose sight of them for the sake of their +custom. We always like to get hold a good man whether we get +his custom or not and therefore we never quarrel with them on that +account. + +10,971. Suppose a man is in your debt at the beginning of the year, +is he likely to go and get his supplies from another shop?-I could +not say about that; but debt does not constitute any hold over him +at all. + +10,972. Do you know any case of a man in your debt at the +beginning of the year having gone and got his supplies from +another merchant?-I believe he would take part from us and +part from others. + +10,973. But do you know any case of that kind where the man +went to another merchant for his supplies?-I could not point to +any case. + +10,974. Does any communication take place between different +shipping agents with regard to the men who are in debt?-Not +now. Formerly we used to hand our accounts from one to the +other. + +10,975. Did you exchange lists of the indebted men?-There were +lists given for the other agents to try to recover the debts for us if +possible. + +10,976. Was that done with the view of obtaining payment from +the agent by whom the men were engaged of a debt due to another +merchant incurred in previous years?-Yes; but it was only done +with the man's consent. Sometimes we recovered it, and +sometimes not. + +10,977. When you say that it was done with the man's consent, do +you mean that at settling time the agent, who was aware that you +were a creditor of the man, would arrange with him to hand over +part of his wages to his former creditor?-Quite so, if the man was +willing to do so. + +10,978. The agent might advise him to do that, but not compel +him?-He never could compel him. He would simply ask him if +he chose to pay the claim; and if he chose not to pay it, there was +no compulsion whatever. + +10,979. Did you ever know of a man refusing to do that?-Very +often. + +10,980. In that case I presume that since the Merchant Shipping +Act of 1854, there were no means compelling payment?-None; +except, of course, that he could be taken to the Small Debt Court. + +10,981. And there was no security, no lien on the men's wages?- +None whatever. There never was that at any time. It was purely +with his own consent if the money was used for paying another +agent's account, + +10,982. How long is it since these lists were interchanged between +the agents in Lerwick?-It was previous to 1854. Perhaps there +may have been some handed since then; one agent may have +handed his accounts to another, in order to get recovery of them. + +10,983. You say you have been nineteen years with Mr. Leask, +and therefore these lists must have been interchanged within your +time?-Yes; I was first employed in 1853. + +10,984. Do you say that there have been no lists of that kind +exchanged, and no information communicated with regard to the +men's debts, since 1853 or 1854?-I don't remember any since +1854: there may have been, but I don't remember handing any lists +or receiving any lists since that time. + +10,985. Or receiving any information at all with regard to the debts +of the men?-Not since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854. + +10,986. Why do you fix that date?-Because at that date it became +compulsory to have the men shipped and discharged before the +shipping master. + +10,987. Has that always been done since 1854?-Not always. It +was done I think, in 1854 and 1855, and it was not done again until +1867. In that year it commenced again, and the wages were all +paid down in presence of the shipping master. + +10,988. But if the Act was not observed with regard to the payment +of wages in presence of the shipping master, how did it interfere +with the passing of these lists?-The practice was given up. + +10,989. At that time was it the practice for the men [Page 269] to +receive payment of their wages at the agent's office?-Yes. + +10,990. Was that done during all the period from 1854 down to +1867?-Yes, but not including 1867. + +10,991. Can you say that, during that period you retained no +portion of any man's wages for debt of another agent?-It is quite +possible we may have done so, but I don't recollect. + +10,992. I suppose your books will show whether any portion of a +man's wages was so retained?-Yes. + +10,993. Do you remember any case in which that was done?-I +don't remember any particular case, but it is quite possible; in fact, +it is even probable. + +10,994. Do you think that some retentions of that kind took place +every year?-I don't think so. Of course, if a man gave an order +on Mr Leask to pay a debt or an account for him, he was bound to +pay it if the man had funds in his hand. I have seen that done- +that a seaman gave a special order in favour of another agent or +another party. + +10,995. Is that done frequently?-Not very often, but it is done +sometimes. + +10,996. Is it done by the man of his own accord?-Decidedly. + +10,997. But probably at the request of the other agent?-I don't +know about that. For instance, instead of getting money from the +seaman, he might get an order on the agent, the same as he might +get an order on the bank. + +10,998. But the other agent who was the creditor of the seaman +does not know necessarily that you have money belonging to the +man in your hands as agent?-Not unless the man tells him. + +10,999. Do you not still pass lists each year from one agent to +another, stating the sums which are due to you by the men?-No. + +11,000. I do not speak merely of seamen indebted to you; but +do you not pass lists of all seamen whom you engage for the +whaling?-Not at all. We have no occasion to do that, because it +could serve no purpose whatever. + +11,001. Why?-Because an agent who had a seaman in his books +as a debtor would know at once whether that man was engaged by +another agent in a particular year. + +11,002. Is it the practice for one agent to be allowed to inspect the +lists or books of another, in order to ascertain what seamen have +been engaged?-I never did that or saw it done. + +11,003. I suppose there are means of finding out in a small place +like Lerwick what seamen in a particular year have been +engaged?-We sometimes found it out in the Shipping Office. +Whenever we wanted to see where a man was, we went there. + +11,004. Can you state distinctly that in every case where such an +order is presented for payment of a seaman's debt, it is presented +without any previous communication between the agents?-I +suppose it always is, but I don't know. The one agent has no +interest whatever in recovering debts for the other; he gets no + +remuneration for it. + +11,005. If that is the case, why does he not refuse to honour the +order?-I would not dishonour the order if the man had funds in +our hands. + +11,006. But the Merchant Shipping Act requires that all wages +shall be paid, not in that way, not in obedience to any order, but +in the presence of the shipping master in hard cash?-That is +true; but it still allows a man to pay his debts. + +11,007. Should not the agent leave him to pay his debts himself, +and so obey the law?-It is merely as an accommodation to the +seaman that we pay his debt for him, and we trust to his honesty +that he will repay it to us. + +11,008. But still, on the part both of the agent and of the seaman, +is not that an infringement of the law?-No, it is not an +infringement. + +11,009. Does not the law require the whole wages, without any +deductions other than those specified in the Act to be paid over in +presence of the shipping master?-Yes, and that is always done. + +11,010. If that is so, how is it possible, for you in obedience to +such an order to retain the man's wages?-I do not retain them. +The man comes back and repays his debt. + +11,011. Then that is not retention in obedience to an order?-It is +not retention: there has been no retention since 1867. Every man, +since then has got his money in the Shipping Office, and those +who had accounts in the shop came back and paid them. + +11,012. Then how did it happen that you spoke of these orders +being implemented?-I was referring to the period before 1867. + +11,013. Your statement now is, that no such orders have been +given, or acted upon since 1867?-They may have been given, +but there have been no deductions from the seaman's wages since +then, except the captain's account, the first month's advance, and +the allotments. With these exceptions, the whole money was paid +down to the seaman in the Shipping Office, and when he had an +account in the shop he came and paid it. + +11,014. Will your books show that?-Yes. + +11,015. In what way do, your books prove it?-I request that the +shipping master be called upon to prove it. + +11,016. To prove what?-To prove that the men get their wages in +money in the Shipping Office. + +11,017. I intend to call Mr. Gatherer to prove that but you have +come forward in order to contradict Mr. Hamilton's report, and the +question I asked is, in what way do your books prove that no such +orders have been honoured since 1867?-Mr. Gatherer will prove +that since 1867 the men have got their wages paid down to them in +money. + +11,018. Am I to record that your books do not prove that?-They +do not prove that. I want the shipping master to prove it. + +11,019 Then your books will not prove that all the wages have +been paid to the men in cash, and that no sum has been retained in +obedience to a seaman's order?-That can be proved by the +shipping master. + +11,020. But your books do not prove it?-We have accounts with +the seamen, and when they get their wages, they invariably come +back and settle these accounts. We do not retain anything; we +invariably pay them the whole money that is due to them, and they +can either come back or not as they choose. + +11,021. Who is it that hands over the money to the men on behalf +of Mr. Leask in presence of the shipping master?-It is generally +Mr. Andrew Jamieson, and sometimes myself. One of us attends +at the Shipping Office along with the men, and hands over their +cash to them in presence of the shipping master. + +11,022. Do you generally find that a seaman comes down to your +office immediately after he has been paid, and settles any account +that he is due?-We generally find that that is the case; in fact, +always when they have accounts they come down and settle them. + +11,023. Have you known any exceptions to that rule?-I have +only known one man who tried not to come down and settle his +account. + +11,024. Who was he?-He was a lad belonging to Lunnasting, +named Robert Grains. He declined to come down and settle his +account but he afterwards came on the same day. I think that +occurred two years ago. + +11,025. When was he asked to come?-I suppose he never was +asked particularly; but it is understood that every man has to pay +his debt when he is able. + +11,026. But you say that he declined?-I believe he declined on +the ground that he required the money. I don't know whether he +was asked to come or whether he merely said of his own accord +that he would not be able to pay his account just now, as he +required the money. + +11,027. Was that done in your presence?-No; it was in Mr. +Jamieson's. + +11,028. Did you see the man when he came back to the office?-I +don't remember seeing him. It was Mr. Jamieson who told me of +the circumstance. + +11,029. When a man comes down to settle after receiving [Page +270] his money at the Shipping Office does he hand over the +whole money into your hands, or does he merely settle the amount +of his account?-He sometimes does the one way and sometimes +the other. + +11,030. Sometimes he may hand over the whole money for you to +settle with him?-Yes; and at other times he asks what he is due. + +11,031. When he hands over the whole money to you, does it ever +happen that the accounts of another shipping agent are settled at +the same time in your office-It has not happened since 1867. + +11,032. Is there anything in the state of the law to prevent that +from being done if the man has got his cash at the Shipping +Office?-I don't think there is. + +11,033. Then why has it never been done since 1867?-I don't +know; it has just happened so. + +11,034. Was that done regularly previous to 1867?-A few +instances might have occurred, but it was not very general +practice at all. + +11,035. In what way before that time did you know that a man +was owing another agent unless you had the sum intimated to +you by that agent, or had lists exchanged?-The agent very likely +ascertained when the man was to settle and came along. + +11,036. He had ascertained where the man was employed?-Yes, +in what ship. + +11,037. Did he do that by means of information obtained at the +Custom House?-Possibly he might. + +11,038. Was it not by information obtained from the agent who +employed the man?-It was possibly from the Custom House, or +from some other party. + +11,039. But it might have been from the agent who engaged the +man?-It is quite possible. + +11,040. Was it not a regular practice to give information of that +sort?-No. + +11,041. Was such an arrangement made more commonly when the +man was pretty deep in debt?-Yes. + +11,042. The agent in whose books he had run up a considerable +debt would look sharper after him, and would make inquiries at +the other agent by whom he was employed?-Yes. + +11,043. So that at least to that extent there was regular system of +communication between the agents?-It was not done to any great +extent; it was merely trifling. There were not so many men in debt +as to make it a common practice. + +11,044. It might come to something considerable where several +hundreds of men were engaged in the whale fishing?-Yes; but +when they were divided among four agents there would not be +many. + +11,045. But last year you engaged 280 men yourselves?-Yes. + +11,046. And in some years the number of men employed in +the sealing and whaling would be greater?-Yes. I think we +employed about 500 in 1853. + +11,047. So that among 500 men employed by you it was very +probable that a considerable number should be in your debt?-I +don't think there were many of them indebted at all. Last year +there were very few indeed. + +11,048. But in past years there may have been a very considerable +number when you had 500 or 600 men engaged?-When the +fishing proved a failure the debts would be very considerable. + +11,049. In going through Mr. Hamilton's Report, you have omitted +a sentence in which he says: 'It is quite common for allotments of +wages to be made out in favour of the agents, or, in other words, +for the agent to undertake to pay to himself part of the seaman's +wages.' Is it quite common for the allotment notes to be made out +in favour of the agents?-Yes, it was quite common. + +11,050. Is it sometimes done still?-We have never done it in Mr. +Leask's office but I believe it has been done elsewhere. + +11,051. Why was it never done in Mr. Leask's office?-We just +trusted to the men's honesty. + +11,052. Have you never taken an allotment note, in which the +party to whom it was payable was, not Mr. Leask, but some one +in his office?-We never took out allotment notes at all. + +11,053. When you engage a man, does he not generally take an +allotment note?-Not generally. + +11,054. Does he do it at all?-Not at all. + +11,055. He gets his supplies from you without any allotment +note?-Yes; without us having any guarantee at all. We have +advanced both goods and money, to great extent, without any +allotment note. + +11,056. But in these cases you were aware that he had no +allotment note?-We have never issued any allotment notes +for the last six years, except, perhaps, in a very rare case. We +may have given one or so. + +11,057. Of course, you would not have advanced him the money +had there been an allotment note left in the hands of his with or +other relations, which they were entitled to draw from you?-We +would have advanced money to parties whom we knew. + +11,058. Have you frequently given money to a seaman's family +during his absence?-Yes. + +11,059. But more frequently supplies?-Not more frequently. It +was just as they wished it. If they wished supplies they got them, +but we did not wish them to take them. + +11,060. What further observation have you to make on Mr. +Hamilton's Report?-Towards the end he says that the men +employed are not free agents. I deny that. I say they are free +agents, and that they are at perfect liberty, so far as my experience +goes. They can engage with whoever they please, and take their +supplies anywhere they please. + +11,061. In denying that statement, do you intend your denial to be +applicable both to the men who are in your debt and to those who +are clear?-Decidedly. The debt constitutes no hold whatever +over the men. + +11,062. Even where the man has a family, and is resident in +Shetland?-Yes, even then. + +11,063. And even where he is a tenant of Mr. Leask, if that +happens to be the case?-Yes. Even in that case he may go +where he pleases. I never yet saw Mr. Leask compel a man in +any way. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'While the men employed +are not free agents, however fair an employer may desire to be, +he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, +the employer wishes to make all he can out of those he employs, +and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has +unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the results of +their labour.' That also I deny. There is an insinuation there that +the employers do not do what is right; and I think the word +'appropriating' does not look very well; but it is not correct. The +Shetland people, in general, are pretty well able to take care of +themselves, and they are sharp enough in settling, to look out that +they have got fair play. + +11,064. And even to take care that the prices charged for goods are +not unreasonably high?-Yes; they take very good care of that. + +11,065. Have you many disputes as to the prices of goods at +settling time?-Very few indeed. + +11,066. Does that arise from the fact that your charges are very +moderate, or from the fact that the Shetlanders don't pay much +attention to that matter?-They pay great attention to it, and an +article is always priced before they buy it. I am quite sure that +our prices are not higher than those of others; at least so far as +my experience goes. + +11,067. There is another statement in Mr. Hamilton's Report, to +which you have not referred,-that there is no time fixed for +settlement with the men who go to the seal and whale fishing?- +That is quite correct; but it is our interest to get the work of +settlement done as speedily as possible. + +11,068. In what way is it your interest?-To get the work off our +hands. We could settle with a dozen men nearly in the same time +that we can with two or three; and if they would all come and get +settled with in one or two days, that would be so much less trouble +to us. + +11,069. Is it the case that the men, after being discharged from the +ship and before settlement, continue to run accounts with you to +any extent?-Very seldom. + +11,070. Does it happen to some extent?-Only to a very small +extent. They seldom buy anything after they have landed. Here +[showing] is a crew of 27 men [Page 271] landed from the +'Esquimaux' on 28th April 1870, and they were all paid off by +14th May, or in about two weeks. + +11,071. That was for a sealing voyage. Did these men engage +again for the whaling?-I believe some of them did. + +11,072. Were others going south?-Some of them went south, I +daresay, and a good number of them went to the home fishing. + +11,073. Have you had any case of as early a discharge in the case +of a whaling voyage?-Here [showing] is the crew of the 'Polynia' +last year. Nineteen men were landed on 26th October, and they +were all paid off and discharged by 29th November, or in about a +month. When the men don't come to be discharged, it is entirely +their own fault, not ours. We can't compel them to come. We +wish them to come as soon as possible and to settle; but sometimes +they don't find it convenient. Some of them may live 20 or 30 +miles from Lerwick, and they don't care about coming until they +have to come deal about some other business. + +11,074. Is it not often more than a month before they are +discharged?-Perhaps it is. Two or three of them may stay +away till the end of the year, but that is the men's fault, not the +agent's. Mr. Hamilton says in the same paragraph: 'When he +(the agent) does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him + before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all +back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or +greater amount.' I deny that. The man he may hand it back or not, +as he chooses, but if he is an honest man he will pay his debt. + +11,075. But you don't deny that in most cases there is a debt due to +the shop?-In most cases they have an account with the shop, but +in some cases it is very small. + +11,076. Can you give me an idea from your books what is the +average amount of the debts due by the men engaged in the +Greenland fishing?-I could not do that just now; but I can state +that, in 1865,-which was before we were compelled to settle +with them in the Custom House, we paid to the men of the +'Camperdown'-42 men-£1120, 12s. 3d. in cash; and out of +that number Mr. Leask had only one tenant. + +11,077. That would be about £25 apiece?-Yes, on an average; +but some of these men had upwards of £50 to get. One of them +had £54, 18s. 5d. to get, and he got it in cash. + +11,078. Was that a very successful year?-Yes; and the following +year was somewhat similar to it. + +11,079. What would be the amount of goods supplied to these men +at starting, or to their families during their absence?-About £400 +for the whole crew. + +11,080. That would be about £9 apiece for the 42 men?-Yes, +about that. + +11,081. Would that be the average amount of a Greenlandman's +account for the season?-No; it would be much more than the +average. Less than the half of that would be nearer the average. + +11,082. But the amount of receipts due upon that voyage was +considerably above the average?-Yes; it was it very exceptional +voyage. + +11,083. Was it twice as much as usual?-Yes; perhaps about that. + +11,084. Do you mean that £4 or £5 is the average amount of the +account due by a seaman engaged in the whaling?-I never made +any calculation about it but I should think it would be somewhere +about that. + +11,085. In what way are your accounts with these men kept? Is +there an account kept in the name of each man?-Yes. [Produces +book.] There [showing] is the account I have been referring to of +the 'Camperdown.' + +11,086. You have a ledger for each ship?-Yes. + +11,087. And this account shows the whole transactions for +1865?-Yes. + +11,088. This [showing] is the account of Hercules Hunter, +Lerwick, who was engaged in the seal fishing of 1865 at 50s. +per month, and 2s. 6d. per ton of oil-money; 2s. 6d. per 1000 +skins, and 2s. 6d. per ton of bone?-Yes. + +11,089. The first entry on March 4, 1865, consists of two advances +of 20s. each to account of his first month's pay, and 3s. as his +subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, for which Mr. +Leask was agent?-Yes. + +11,090. The next entry is half of note to Mr. Hay for rent, £1, 18s. +11/2d. Had Mr. Leask undertaken to pay his rent?-Yes. + +11,091. The following entries, to the amount of £2, 0s. 31/2d., are +for outfit at starting, consisting both of clothing and private +stores?-Yes. + +11,092. Then follows-insurance, 5s. 10d.: what is that?-The +insurance is on the outfit, and it is charged over and above the +month's advance. The advance is made by the owner of the ship; +and what is over that is at risk, which is covered by insurance. +We get it done for them, and they refund the premium. + +11,093 Do you employ a broker to effect an insurance on all your +advances of that kind?-Yes. + +11,094. Then the 5s. 10d. is the amount of insurance paid by you +upon the sum of £3, 10s., which was the amount of cash and goods +advanced to this man at the time of, or after, his sailing?-Yes. + +11,095. There is also a balance of the old debt: was that not +included in the insurance?-No. + +11,096. On April 27 the man returns from his voyage and receives +a payment in cash of 20s., with certain additional supplies; and on +28th April you enter to his credit the sum of £30, 8s. 4d. for wages, +oil-money, and skin-money due to him upon that voyage?-Yes; +that is the first payment. + +11,097. His account runs on from 2d May till 4th December of the +same year, when it is settled, during which time he has been upon +a whaling voyage?-Yes. + +11,098. At the commencement of that voyage on 2d May he +receives £5 in cash?-Yes; that is to account of oil-money. + +11,099. On 8th May he receives £5 in cash; on 16th May, £3; +November 1, 3s.; November 18, 2s.; and on November 1 also there +is £1, 16s. entered as having been paid at Dundee: that would be +advanced by the shipowners there?-Yes. + +11,100. On November 22d he receives £8 in cash, and a balance +was paid on December 4 of £18, 8s.?-Yes. + +11,101. The rest of the debits in that account consist of supplies +for himself during the voyage in the captain's account and supplies +to his family of meal, sugar, soap, tea, and other items; and the +total amount of his credit for wages, oil-money, bone-money, for +the two voyages, was £58, 19s. 2d.?-Yes. + +11,102. In that case the settlement took place in December?-Yes, +the final settlement. + +11,103. The whaling voyage would come to an end in +November?-Yes, not sooner; so that the man had only been +at home about a month when he was settled with. + +11,104. But during all that time you had in your hands the +proceeds of his first successful sealing voyage?-Yes, except +what he had got. I think he got £19 in cash out of the £30, +besides his goods up to the 16th May. + +11,105. And the balance of £11 remained in your hands as a +security for the advances he was getting up to the settlement +in December?-Yes. + +11,106. Then, on November 20, he was credited with the +additional sums due for the whaling voyage, amounting to +£28, 4s. 10d.; so that, in addition to supplying him with goods, +upon which you had your profit you were, during all that time +acting as his banker?-No; he had got £19 to account by 16th +May. + +11,107. But to the extent of £11 you were acting as his banker?- +Yes. + +11,108. And he was not getting interest for it?-I think he should +have paid interest. + +11,109. Not when you had £11 of his in your hands?-No; but we +charged him no interest when we advanced him more. + +[Page 272] + +11,110. But you charged insurance upon the goods he got, and you +had your profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we had to lie out of the +money, for some time. We might have lain out of that money for +eight or nine months. + +11,111. Had you sold him these goods at a cash price, and not at a +credit price?-At a cash price; we have only one price. We make +no difference between cash and credit. + +11,112. Was the oil-money that is credited to the man on 20th +November the first payment of oil-money?-It was the first +payment of oil-money for the Davis Straits voyage. + +11,113. When was the second payment of oil-money made?-It is +credited on 19th February 1866. + +11,114. It only amounted to 15s.?-Yes. I don't believe that we +had received the first money at the time when we paid the man, so +that we had no money on hand. + +11,115. Take the case, now, of a man living in the country, George +Georgeson in Walls. He receives, in like manner, on 4th March, +£2, 13s. in cash, and he gets supplies, and is debited with +insurance in the same way. On April 27 he has the same amount +to receive for the sealing voyage, and on May 17 he gets £12,10s. +in cash; on September 9, £1 per order: was that an allotment +note?-It was money to account. + +11,116. It would be advanced to his wife upon the security of the +voyage?-Yes. + +11,117. On November 20 there is £5; and £1, 6s. for cash at +Dundee and Aberdeen. He is credited with the same amount of +wages as Hunter, and on December 4 he is credited with second +payment for the sealing voyage £3, 15s. Then, on December 26, +he receives £28, 2s. 6d. in cash; and the rest of his debits consist +of supplies to his family in sugar, tea, aqua, canvas, and other +small article, but to a very small extent. I suppose the supplies +taken out in that way by people living out of Lerwick are usually +less than in the case of those who live in town?-Yes. It costs +them both expense and trouble to get them from Lerwick. + +11,118. There is also the case of James Twatt, Sandness, who is +debited on March 4 with £2, 3s. to advance; and then on March 4 +and 9 he gets supplies to the amount of £3, 38. 71/2d., upon which +there is charged 6s. 51/2d. of insurance. On April 27, on his return +from the sealing voyage he gets 20s. in cash, and he is credited +with £20, 10s., for wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes; I +think he was only at the sealing voyage. + +11,119. Then, on May 27, he gets £7 in cash; July 10, 15s.; +September 11, £2; and on December 4 he is credited with second +payment for sealing voyage, £2, 5s. On March 6 he receives 2s. +in cash; and on the same date he is settled with, by receiving £3, +1s. 3d. in cash. The total proceeds of that voyage to him were £22, +15s.?-Yes. + +11,120. How many ships had you in 1865?-I think we had seven. + +11,121. Were they all as fortunate as this one?-No, none of the +others were so fortunate. + +11,122. Was 1866 as good a year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes. + +11,123. I see that in that year Adam Moar had £36, 2s. upon the +two voyages; of that he got in cash at starting, and the amount of +the Shipwrecked Mariners' ticket, 33s.; on May 2, cash 40s.; +having been credited on that date with the proceeds of the sealing +voyage, £21, 9s. 6d.; May 8, cash 10s.; May 17, cash 32s.; May 19, +cash 6d.; August 16, cash 8s.; and on June 22, 1866, there is an +entry to G.R. Tait's account, £3, 2s. 10d.: was that a previous +account due to Mr. Tait, which you had paid for the man?-Yes. + +11,124. Then, on August 16, there is cash 8s.; October 22, cash £6, +captain's account £1, 7s. 6d.; cash at Dundee for travelling charge, +£1, 6s. I thought the engagement was, that when the men were +carried past Lerwick, their travelling expenses home were paid to +them?-That is generally the case. + +11,125. Then why is that sum charged against the man?-It has +been something additional; it was advanced besides what was paid +by the owner. + +11,126. On October 23 he is credited with the proceeds of the +whaling voyage, and on October 31 his account is settled by a cash +payment of £4; the difference between the previous cash payments +and this balance being made up of supplies to himself and the +family-Yes. + +11,127. The second payment on both voyages was made on +January 1, 1867, and he got £4, 8s. 1d. in cash?-Yes; that was +when he came in to settle. + +11,128. Was 1867 a good year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes; both +1867 and 1868 were pretty fair years for her, but not so good as the +former years. + +11,129. Have you anything to show the state of accounts in 1870 +or 1871?-Yes. [Produces book for 1871.] It is not the case that +we do not keep accounts with the men, because we pay them in +presence of the shipping master, and then they pay their accounts +to us. + +11,130. Do you keep your accounts now in a different way from +what you did when the book was current upon which I have been +examining you?-No; they are kept quite in the same way. + +11,131. I see that the account for 1871, which you have produced, +is not yet settled?-No; it is for the 'Polynia,' another ship. + +11,132. Why have you selected these two ships?-Because the one +was previous to the compulsory settlement at the Custom House, +and the other was not. + +11,133. Have you not had the 'Camperdown' since?-Yes. + +11,134. Were the ''Camperdown' and 'Polynia' the best paying +ships in this year?-The 'Camperdown' was, but not the 'Polynia.' + +11,135. And the 'Polynia' was not the most successful ship since +1868?-No, nor before. + +11,136. Take the account of Peter Blance, Yell. His wages +were 20s. per month, 1s. per ton of oil, and 2s. per thousand +seal-skins?-Yes, he was a young hand. + +11,137. He gets an advance at first of 4s. as a payment to the +Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund; then he gets an outfit, £3, 2s., upon +which 2s. 1d. of insurance is charged. On April 17 he receives in +cash 5s., and at that date he is in your debt for £1, 7s. 8d., after +crediting him with wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes. + +11,138. That balance is carried on to a new account in which there +appear certain supplies, and he is credited with his share of the +summer fishing, and also with the second payment of oil and skin +money, and another item of 2s, making up £16, 1s. 3d.; and also +with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item +of 2s. making up £16, 1s. 3d.?-Yes. + +11,139. On November 29, there is entered to balance rent account, +£12, 14s. 8d. Is Blance one Leask's tenants?-His mother was a +tenant of Mr. Leask. + +11,140. Then the £12,14s. 8d. was applied to square off that +account?-Yes; it was put to his mother's credit. + +11,141. The sum due to Blance on April 17, on the sealing voyage, +was £3, 14s. 4d.?-Yes, that was the money paid to him at the +Custom House, before the shipping master. + +11,142. When was it transferred to your hands?-He would come +down to the office and pay it back. I cannot say exactly at what +hour he came, but he would come on the same day. + +11,143. Then the £12, 14s. 8d., which was due for rent, was +transferred by you to the rent account?-Yes, by his own order. + +11,144. Was it done at your request?-It was at his mother's +request. + +11,145. How old is Blance?-He is about 20. + +11,146. Had you had any correspondence with his mother about +transferring that money to her amount his mother had been in +arrear, or some time. She was a widow, and Mr. Leask had been +rather obliging her by allowing her to remain where she was for +some years, when she was not able to pay any rent. Then when her +son was grown up, and was able to pay the debt, he did so. + +[Page 273] + +11,147. Here [showing] is the account of William Johnston, jun., +Yell: was he another young hand?-Yes; he was in the same +position as Blance. Both their fathers were drowned a few years +ago, and their mothers lived in Yell. + +11,148. In May, the balance against him was £4, 14s. 11d., and +that includes the balance from a previous fish ledger, of £3, 1s. +6d.?-Yes; he was at the Faroe fishing and was rather unfortunate. + +11,149. That is carried into a new account in May, and after +allowing him his share of the summer ling fishing, £14, 13s. 9d., +and his second payment of oil-money, the balance carried to the +rent ledger against him is £8, 17s. 11d.?-Yes. + +11,150. That was for his mother's rent in the same way as in the +case of Blance?-Yes; these are the only two cases of the kind in +Mr. Leask's transactions with his tenants. + +11,151. Here [showing] is the account of Magnus Arthur, Yell: +was he also a young hand?-Yes. + +11,152. Last year he got advances to the amount of 19s. 10d., on +which 1s. 7d. of insurance was charged; afterwards, on April 17, +he received in cash 5s., and £1, 16s. 11d. at settlement in +November; the amount on his receipts from wages, oil-money, +and skin-money, being £4, 19s. 10d.?-Yes. + +11,153. I see that in the case of Hugh Arthur, Nesting, the amount +due to him in wages, oil-money, and skin-money, was £7, 15s. 6d., +in April 1871; and the account at his debit for previous advances +was £7, 11s. 8d., part of which consisted of a payment of £2, 5s. +upon an advance note in favour of J. Dalzell?-Yes. + +11,154. That sum of £7, 15s. 6d. was paid, I presume, before the +superintendent at the Custom House?-Yes, after deducting the +£2, 5s., the master's account, and the shipping master's fees. + +11,155. And then Arthur walked down to your office and paid +the amount of his account?-Yes, he came down and settled the +account he was due to Mr. Leask for advances. + +11,156. Is that done universally by the men when there is an +account due by them?-Yes, after receiving their money they +walk back to the office and pay their accounts. + +11,157. Do they generally accompany you down to the office +or the clerk who sees them paid?-One of us sometimes +accompanies them to the office but we don't wait for them; +they come back when they please. + +11,158. Do you always desire them to come down to the office +and settle their accounts when they leave the shipping master's +office?-Of course, they understand they have to pay their +accounts. We don't require to tell them that. The men are very +honest on the whole, and don't require to be asked to pay what +they are due. + +11,159. Except in the case of a man like Robert Grains?-That is +the only exception I have known since 1867. + +11,160. I suppose if any of them showed a reluctance to settle their +account at the time, then either you or the clerk who attended at +the shipping master's office would remind them of it and ask them +to come down to your shop to settle?-Except in that one case, I +never saw even the least hint of that. + +11,161. There is generally a second payment due to the men for +oil-money?-Invariably. + +11,162. Where is that second payment of oil-money settled?-In +the agent's office now. + +11,163. Why is it not also paid before the shipping master?- +Because it creates a great amount of trouble to go there with every +man to make the settlement. It entails an immense amount of +labour. + +11,164. Then the final settlement of accounts between you and +the seamen does not take place until the second payment becomes +due?-No. + +11,165. And generally the actual settlement is some time after it +becomes due?-Yes, a short time after. + +11,166. Does it generally take place at the time when the men are +engaging for their next year's voyage?-No. We are so busy then +that we could not take time to settle their balances. There may be +a few cases of that kind, but very few. + +11,167. But with men from the North Isles, is it not the case that +the settlement for the second payment takes place when they come +in to arrange for the next year's voyage?-Yes. + +11,168. And when they take supplies at that time, are these put +into the account for the rising year?-Yes, if they take supplies +after they engage. + +11,169. They don't go into the account on which the oil-money +has been paid?-That account has been previously settled. + +11,172. But I am putting the case of a man wife receives his final +payment of oil-money at the same time that he engages for the +voyage of the rising year?-He receives his oil-money, if he +wishes it, in cash, and if he wishes an advance on the rising year, +he gets it besides. + +11,171. In point of fact, what is generally done?-We pay the +second payment of oil-money in cash; and then afterwards, if the +man wishes any advance, and if it is a person we know, we will +trust him with it. + +11,172. But he is entitled to his advance in any case?-He is not +entitled to get goods unless we choose to give them to him. + +11,173. Is that advance always paid in money?-It is always paid +in money if they wish it. All they are entitled to is one month's +advance, and that they are entitled to receive in money. + +11,174. But when a man engages for the whale fishing, and asks +for his first month's pay in advance, is it the case that, in point of +fact, he generally gets it in cash, or does he generally take it in +goods?-We always give advance notes at the shipping office, +stamped notes payable three days after the ship leaves, provided +the men go in the ship. + +11,175. Then you don't give either goods or money until after the +man is actually away?-Yes. When man is engaged he gets his +clothes to take with him, and if he wishes to give us his advance +note we will cash it afterwards. + +11,176. Do you give him his clothes in addition to the amount of +his advance note?-If he wishes it. + +11,177. But I see in all the entries I have been looking at, that the +advance note is entered to his debit?-We debit him with what he +receives, and he gives us back the advance note. + +11,178. Here, for instance, is an entry of cash 30s. that actually +paid to the man in cash?-Yes. He asks us to give him what +money he requires, and he leaves his advance note with us. If he +wants to get 40s. or 45s., he would get it; but if he says that he +only wants 30s., we don't give him more than he requires. + +11,179. A man who engages in that way has perhaps to get the +amount of his last payment of oil-money for the previous year, and +also cash for his advance?-Yes. That may happen very often, +and it does happen. He first gets his payment of oil-money, and +after he re-engages he gets his advance. + +11,180. If a man in these circumstances wants a supply of meal or +clothing or anything to be sent to his family, does that appear in +your books, or is it paid for in money out of the monthly sums +which his family may have to receive?-The whole of these things +are kept in one account. + +11,181. But suppose he buys meal at that time, will that enter your +books at all?-Anything that he does not pay for will be entered. + +11,182. But he may pay for it out of that very cash which is +entered here as having been received by him?-He may do so; +but we don't mark down anything that is paid for. + +11,183. When a man has his oil-money to receive, and is taking his +month's advance at the same time, is it not usual to ask him if he +wants any supplies for his family?-I don't know that it is. We +don't obtrude questions of that kind upon them. + +11,184. Does he not often take supplies for his family?-Very +often. + +11,185. And these are paid for in cash out of the cash he is so +receiving from you?-Very often. + +[Page 274] + +11,186. But you say you don't obtrude questions about his wants +upon him at that particular time?-No. We never engage a man to +be paid in goods at all. We engage every man to be paid in money; +and if he is paid in goods it is his own fault. + +11,187. But, in point of fact, a man often does take goods, at that +time?-Very often. We make it, a point to give them as cheap or +cheaper than they could get them elsewhere. + +11,188. Therefore although there is an entry in your books of +oil-money being paid to a man at a certain date, and of a payment +of 30s. or £2 being made to him at the same time, on account of +his first month's advance, it may happen, and it does happen, that +that money is paid back into your till for goods supplied the +time?-A part of it may be; but the place where the cash is kept, +and the place where the goods are sold, are two separate places, so +that the things must be kept quite distinct. The shop is on the +ground floor opening from the street, and the office is up a lane on +the second floor, where we have also a warehouse or general store +for drapery goods. A man, when he gets his money in the office, +may go and buy drapery goods on the second floor, or he may go +down stairs and buy provisions. We don't know what he does. + +11,189. You do know, in point of fact, that he often does spend his +money there and then?-I have no doubt he does. + +11,190. But you are not aware that he is often asked if he wants +anything at the time?-I am not aware of that. It is not done now +at any rate. + +11,191. Do you know whether it was the practice, before the +evidence was given in Edinburgh last year, to ask a man on such +occasions what goods he would take?-Our shopmen might have +done so. Every shopman is keen to sell as much as he can; and +when he is aware of a man getting plenty of money, he would +likely ask him, 'Are you going to buy anything?' + +11,192. You have now handed in to me the abstract from which +you previously spoke, with regard to the 'Camperdown's' voyages +in 1865, which shows a total of £1537, 10s. 3d. for the men's +earnings for both the sealing and whaling that year, and a total +amount of cash paid to them, both during the season and at the +end, of £1120, 12s. 3d., leaving a balance of £416, 18s. for goods +sold?-Yes. + +11,193. Do you think that shows about the average proportion of +goods and cash received by each man during each year?-I should +say that it does. + +11,194. Was that not an unusually favourable season for the +whaling?-For most of the vessels it was. + +11,195. But were not these voyages of the 'Camperdown' very +considerably above the average with respect to the earnings of the +men?-They were above the average. + +11,196. Do you also say that the accounts incurred by the men that +year were above the average?-I should certainly say so. They +bought more than they otherwise would or could have done. + +11,197. Why should that be so? The men did not know at the +commencement of the season whether the fishing was to be a +successful one or not?-The greater quantity of the goods are +bought after the sealing voyage, when they have earned a +considerable sum of money. + +11,198. Then the sealing voyage that year was unusually +successful?-Yes. The principal part of the earnings were +from it; and it was after it that the greater portion, or a great +portion, of the accounts were contracted. + +11,199. And you think the fact of the sealing voyage being +unusually successful led the men or their families to incur larger +accounts to you than they would otherwise have done?-I should +certainly say so; because when the men's earnings are small, we +have to restrict them. In this case, however, they had plenty of +means, and we did not refuse them what they wanted. + +11,200. With regard to the sum due at the end of the season, and +paid in cash before the superintendent, what proportion of it +should you say was refunded immediately in payment of accounts +due at the shop?-I suppose about one-fourth, calculating from the +case I have given. + +11,201. I think if you look at the books which you have showed +me, you will find that many of the accounts show that a much +larger sum would require to be repaid. That may have been the +proportion for a special ship, but it does not follow that that is a +fair criterion?-I took that book simply because it came first to +hand. I did not take it specially; but of course, it will show more +goods sold, in proportion to the amount of earning than any other +book we have got. + +11,202. But can you not tell me what proportion of the money paid +before the superintendent the man has to come down to and hand +over to you in payment of his account?-The men, when they are +landed, and before settlement, often get sums in cash to account, +and sometimes pretty heavy sums, before they get their money at +the Shipping Office. + +11,203. But you would not do that if the men were in debt to you +for goods?-No, not if they were in debt. + +11,204. So that if a man has to refund money to you out of what he +gets before the shipping master, that will, in the general case, be in +payment of goods which he has got?-Yes, generally. + +11,205. It must be so, because you would not advance him money +if he was in your debt?-No; but the men generally are not in our +debt. When they are in debt, it is the exception, especially in the +whaling trade. + +11,206. Then if a man is in your debt, and has to refund you +money which he receives before the shipping master, that must be +for goods?-Yes, for goods alone, if he is in debt; but we don't +like him to be in debt. If he be in debt, it must be for goods. We +would not care about allowing a man to get into debt for cash, +although it may sometimes be the case, because Mr. Leask is very +accommodating in the way of giving advances. + +11,207. But the answer you give is, that about one-fourth of the +sums which have been received by the men before the shipping +master is repaid to you by them in settling their accounts for +goods?-I said that I thought about one-fourth represented the +goods sold; but, in many cases the men have got advances in +money to account over and above the goods they have bought; so +that the money paid over to the agent after the settlement before +the shipping master, will be more than one-fourth. I should say +that it would be one-third, and that would cover the sums of +money paid to account from the date of landing to the date of +settlement. It is quite a common thing for the men to get money +as soon as they land, and before settlement; and that of course, +increases the account against the men, which they have to pay +after receiving their money before the shipping master. + +11,208. Still you don't give that as an exact statement but merely +as a guess?-It is merely an approximation, as nearly as I can +guess it to be and I have a very good idea. + +11,209. You say the men always go down of their own accord to +pay the money, because they are honest men?-Yes, invariably. +They don't require to be asked to do so. + +11,210. Has it not been the case that at certain times within the last +3 or 4 years, and since the regulations of 1868 were enacted by the +Board of Trade, you and your clerks have endeavoured to settle +with the men before leaving the Custom House?-I think in the +first year that was done. We simply paid them over the balance +which they had to receive, after deducting their accounts. Perhaps +it was partly done in the second year; but since then the shipping +master has been more rigid, and we have had to pay the whole. + +11,211. Did the shipping master interfere about that?-He always +interfered, and he would not allow any reckoning in the Shipping +Office at all + +11,212. Since then the men have invariably come down to your +office and settled with you immediately after they had received +their money in the Shipping Office?-Yes, on the same day, and +without any exception, unless in the one case I mentioned, and that +man came on the same day also after some reflection. + +[Page 275] + +11,213. You still keep your ledger accounts in the same form as if +there were no such payment of cash in the Shipping Office?-Yes, +we adhere to the same form that we used before. + +11,214. So that your books do not show, without calculation, what +amount of cash was transferred before the shipping master?-They +show the account exactly as it is, irrespective of the settlement +before the shipping master. + +11,215. In that way, is it not the case that the transference of the +cash before the shipping master is merely form in order to comply +with the Act?-I don't think so; because, if a man chooses to keep +the money, he may do so. The account is kept merely to show the +man's earnings, and how these earnings have been disposed of. It +would be more simple, perhaps, to debit the men with the goods +they get, and then to credit the cash after the settlement; but the +form we use has always been adopted, and we still adhere to it. I +don't think it is an evasion of the Act at all. + +11,216. The men are not all settled with on the same day?-No. + +11,217. Perhaps you may settle with half a dozen at time?-Yes. + I remember of settling with nineteen on one day last year, but I +think that is the largest number; but we could have settled with +more if they had come forward. + +11,218. Of course, if the men were all settled with as they land +from the ships, perhaps to the number of 40 at a time, it would be +more easy for them to go away without paying their debts?-Of +course it would, but it is no great trouble to them to come and pay +their debts. + +11,219. But there would be great difficulty for you or your clerk in +looking after them on the way down from the Shipping Office to +the shop?-I don't think so. It is the work of a moment to take +their money from them, because we can see at a glance what is +due. + +11,220. How far is Mr. Leask's office from the Shipping Office?- +It may be about a couple of hundred yards, but I could not say +exactly. Mr. Leask's office is in the town, and the Custom House +is in Fort Charlotte which is to the north of the town. + +11,221. You say you settled with nineteen men in one day: did +these men all go up at one time before the superintendent?-All +that were there at the time went before the superintendent. + +11,222. But the ordinary number with whom you settle on the +same day will be much less?-Yes; sometimes there may be +eight or ten, and sometimes only one. + +11,223. So that if they really require looking after, there will not +be much difficulty in looking after them from the Custom House +to the office?-We never require to look after them at all; they +come of themselves. + +11,224. But suppose the case that they did require it; it would not +be very difficult to look after them, when there are only one or +two, or even eight or ten?-We should not take the trouble to do +that. If they chose to swindle us, we should just apply to the +Small Debt Court. We would not be inclined to act the part of +sheriff-officer ourselves. Mr. Hamilton says in his Report, +'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some +shopkeeper, and not only is the head of the family in debt, but +frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down +to children of 12 or 14 years of age, for whom the shopkeeper +opens separate accounts in his books'-I don't think that is the +case. Some of them may perhaps have accounts, but I don't think +every is indebted to some shopkeeper. + +11,225. Still that is a common thing?-Quite a common thing. + +11,226. Does it occur in your books as well as in those of other +firms, that separate accounts are opened for the wife and for +the children?-Never for the wife; but, of course, an account is +opened for the children when we are employing them. + +11,227. Have you any transactions in hosiery?-We have +transactions in barter for what Mr. Walker calls the hosiery +improper or incidental. We do a great deal in that way in the +coarser sort of work stockings, frocks, and so on. We barter +goods for them, or rather I should say we take them instead of +money. + +11,228. You don't keep, accounts with regard to these +transactions?-No. + +11,229. Every transaction is separate and distinct?-Yes, it is +simple barter. The people come with their goods instead of +money, and we give them, goods in exchange for them. + +11,230. A married woman may come with her knitting and sell it +in that way for goods?-Yes. + +11,231. But you don't keep an account with her?-No; we don't +keep separate accounts with a man and his wife. + +11,232. If she gives the hosiery in that way, and does not want any +goods, may it be put down to the husband's account?-We don't +care about taking hosiery at all. We simply take the hosiery +instead of money, because the people come wanting to buy goods, +and very often they have nothing to give for them except their +hosiery. We frequently take the hosiery from them at a great +disadvantage. + +11,233. Do you frequently open accounts with the children of a +family when they are in your employment?-I should not call +them children, but grown-up young people-boys of from 12 years +of age and upwards, who are employed in the fish-curing. + +11,234. Do you employ many boys in your establishment at +Lerwick?-Yes. I now produce a list of all the people employed +by Mr. Leask in that way. There are about 60 of them altogether, +including persons of 12 to upwards of 50. + +11,235. For how many months in the year are these persons +employed?-I should say that on an average taking one thing +with another, curing the fish and turning them over, they are +employed for about five months in the year, from May to +December; but they are only employed at intervals, not regularly. +They are employed regularly for part of May and for June, July, +August, and September, and sometimes part of October. After +that we have to employ them occasionally in turning the fish. + +11,236. When you employ one of these persons at the beginning of +the year, is it the ordinary practice to open an account in his name +in the ledger?-We don't care about opening accounts with them +at all. We prefer to settle with them every Saturday. + +11,237. What is the nature of the engagement with them? Is it for +weekly wages, or for a fee?-It is for weekly wages. We pay them +from 7d. a day upwards; 1s. a day is the regular wage for a woman +working among the fish, or for a strong boy. + +11,238. In your establishment in Lerwick, is any payment made by +way of beach fees?-No; we pay all by daily or weekly wages, and +Saturday evening is the pay. + +11,239. Do all these parties take payment in cash every +Saturday?-We prefer to pay them in cash; but, of course, if +they have taken supplies or provisions during the week we must +be paid for them. Some of them do take supplies, because they +could not live without them. + +11,240. When they take supplies in that way, are their names +entered each week in the day-book?-Not in the day-book, but +in a book which we keep for the purpose, what we call our +work-book. + +11,241. In what way is it kept?-We simply charge them with +what provisions they get. + +11,242. Is there a ledger account in that work-book for each +person?-Yes. + +11,243. In it the provisions which they get are entered, and I +suppose also soft goods if they get any?-They very seldom take +soft goods; it is only provisions. These are entered in the book as +they are got, and the account is settled on the Saturday evening, +except in one or two extravagant cases where the people are in +debt. In that case, we simply put their work to their credit, and +don't balance at all until the end of the season. + +[Page 276] + +11,244. If you don't make a balance until the end of the season, +may you not have some difficulty in restricting their supplies +within proper limits?-Of course, we can always tell how they +stand, because we are keeping a check upon their accounts, but +sometimes we find it pretty hard to keep such people in check. +We far rather prefer paying cash on the Saturday evening than +having accounts. + +11,245. But you don't always do that?-No, we cannot do it +because the people cannot live without supplies as a general +rule; perhaps there may be some exceptions. + +11,246. But in the majority of cases you say the people have +accounts?-Yes. + +11,247. In the list you have given in, there are the names of about +eighty people: are these all the people employed in your curing +establishments?-No; there are a good many employed +incidentally besides these. The names I have given are only +those of the people are employed most regularly. + +11,248. How are these people paid who are employed +incidentally?-We never employ any one to work for goods. +The understanding is that they are to be paid in money; and +they are paid in money, unless they have supplied themselves +with articles from the shop, for which, of course, we must be paid. + +11,249. In what way are the engagements with these parties +made?-When they ask for employment we tell them to go to the +superintendent, and if he requires them he takes them and fixes +their wages. He very likely tries them for a day, or perhaps for a +week, to see how they are to get on, and then he tells them what +their wages are to be. + +11,250. In what way is the understanding expressed to them that +they are to be paid in cash at the end of each week?-They know +very well they will get their wages in cash, unless they take stuff +from the shop before the end of the week. It is cash that is always +the understanding. We don't wish them to take goods at all, and +we prefer that they should not take any. + +11,251. Do they ever get cash in the course of the week?-Very +often. + +11,252. To what extent?-Of course their wages are not a great +deal, and it cannot be to a great extent. They sometimes get 1s. +perhaps during the week; sometimes more and sometimes less. + +11,253. But they always get goods when they want them so long +as they are in your employ?-Not always. In one or two cases we +have had to refuse goods. + +11,254. Is not that really a payment of their wages in goods if they +choose to take them all in goods?-I don't think so, because we +don't wish them to take all in goods. + +11,255. But, in fact, you don't pay them the money?-In such a +case we don't pay them the money. + +11,256. If there is any money left to receive at the end of the week, +how do you pay it?-If they choose to go to the shop and take +goods, we must pay ourselves for these goods. They cannot expect +to get both goods and money too; but what we pay is money, and if +they choose to take goods, that is their own fault. + +11,257. But in fact, they are not paid in money?-I think that, in +fact, they are paid in money, because they may get the money from +the office and take it back again to the shop, as they do in some +cases. + +11,258. Do they sometimes get the money at the office?-Yes, and +sometimes they pay it back into the shop; but, of course we deduct +the amount of the accounts from what they have to receive. + +11,259. I suppose it is very seldom that they get the money in the +office and pay it back to the shop?-That is done in a good many +cases. + +11,260. Why do they do that if they have an account?-Because +if they have a balance to get it is paid to them in money, and very +likely what money they get is spent by them in the shop. + +11,261. Do you mean that when they are settled with the end of the +week they get the balance they have receive in money and spend it +in the shop?-Yes, they very often, do that. If they require to +spend it at all, they very likely spend it where they know they can +get the best value. + +11,262. Of the eighty people mentioned in the list you have handed +in, how many may there be under fifteen years of age?-There are +very few under fifteen; think only two or three. + +11,263. Are all the rest of the males under eighteen or twenty?- +Not all. The carpenters, of course, are married men and have +families; but most of the people in the list are women; we have +very few boys. + +11,264. Have the carpenters, the sailmakers and riggers all credit +accounts with you?-Yes. + +11,265. Out of the fish-curers, nineteen appear to be males?-Yes, +men and boys. I think there are four men, and the others are all +grown-up lads, except two or three young boys. + +11,266. And the women may be of all ages?-Yes. With regard to +the weekly settlement with them, what I said had reference to +those living in the town; but we have about twenty living in +Whiteness, eight or ten miles distant, and these are only paid +monthly. + +11,267. Where do they get their supplies?-They live with their +own families, and they don't require to buy provisions like people +living in town; but if they need anything they come to us for it. + +11,268. I understand Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the Faroe +fishing?-Yes; he owned eight fishing vessels that went to Faroe +last year. He did not have so many in previous years. + +11,269. Has he an interest in any others as a partner of any +company?-He has no interest in any others, but he acted as +agent for other two. + +11,270. What is the nature of the engagement that is made with the +fishermen who go to Faroe?-The Faroe fishing is a joint +speculation between the owner of the vessel and the crew. The +owner supplies the ship, thoroughly equipped for the voyage, and +furnishes sufficient salt to cure the fish, with all other necessary +materials; and he also supplies the crew, with one pound of bread +per day. + +11,271. Does he supply all the lines required?-That is a different +affair. What I have mentioned is his portion of the supplies-the +ship and one pound of bread per man per day, and the salt; but the +salt is deducted from the proceeds of the fishing as part of the +expenses of curing. The owner also supplies the men with what +advances they require in the way of lines, hooks, clothes, and +stores. + +11,272. These, however, are not supplied by the owner, but merely +advanced by him?-Yes. All that the owner supplies is the ship, +equipped for sea and biscuit at the rate of one pound per man per +day. The men supply themselves with small stores, such as tea, +coffee, butcher-meat, and anything they require. They also furnish +lines and hooks, and what clothing they require. The owner puts +the salt on board; generally about 20 tons, and sometimes as high +as 30 tons, according to the size of the vessel. + +11,273. What proportion does the salt put on board bear to the +total capacity of the vessel?-One ton of salt is expected to cure +one ton of fish. + +11,274. Do you not put on board a larger supply of salt in order to +allow for waste?-We generally put as much salt as the vessel can +stow, after being filled up with water-casks, oil-casks, bread, +ballast, and so on. + +11,275. What are the oil-casks for?-To preserve the livers of the +fish. They are put into these casks, and made into oil after the +vessel has returned. + +11,276. Are the lines, and hooks, and small stores, which are +supplied by the men, generally taken from the merchant as +outfitter?-Yes. + +11,277. And they are charged against the men in their accounts?- +Yes. + +11,278. At the end of the season, when the men come to settle, +how is the arrangement with them carried out?-The men, of +course, get all the money due to them. + +11,279. What number of men may there be on board one of these +smacks?-With one vessel we have had crew of 18, and with +another we have had a crew of 11. The crews vary between +these numbers; and of [Page 277] these men, perhaps two-thirds +are what are called full-shares-men; perhaps one-sixth will be +half-shares-men, and the other sixth quarter-shares-men. I now +show the account of the 'Anaconda' for last year. + +11,280. I see that the vessel's proportion of the fish was one half: +that goes to the owner?-Yes. + +11,281. How many men were in the crew?-Sixteen. + +11,282. Of these, 13 had full shares and were called +shares-men?-Yes. + +11,283. John Isbister had a three-quarter share?-Yes. He would +perhaps be an ordinary seaman, not an able seamen. The able +seamen have full shares, and the others have less, according to +their quality. + +11,284. I see that three men had three-quarter shares, while one +had as low as a half?-Yes; in some cases they have only been on +one voyage. The smacks generally make two voyages, and +sometimes three. Perhaps after the first voyage, a boy or a man +may be ill, and has to leave, and his proportion of the fish is +ascertained at the time when he leaves. + +11,285. Are the hooks, and lines, and outfit, supplied to the men, +deducted from their own account, or from the account of the +crew?-They are deducted in each man's own private account; +each man has his own account, separate from the account of the +crew. There is one account kept for what has been got on behalf +of the company, and then everything else is put into the account +for the men. + +11,286. There is a statement made out for each ship annually, +showing the gross fish and oil, and also the charge, consisting of +various things?-Yes. + +11,287. But the gross fish and oil, as entered here [showing], must +appear somewhere else in detail?-We have another book in +which we put the amount of the weight. The skipper knows the +number of the fish, but he cannot tell their weight until they are +dried. When they are cured, the amount of the fish is entered in +the book. + +11,288. And the estimate made of each man's share is made after +weighing the dry fish?-Yes; or after selling the dry fish. The fish +are weighed in the store, and then sold, perhaps in October or +November; and as soon as the price is ascertained, the account is +made up. + +11,289. In the case of the 'Caroline' in 1870, the statement shows +£481, 0s. 3d. as the total proceeds of the sale of her fish?-Yes. + +11,290. The first thing you do after having ascertained the total +proceeds of the sale of the fish is to deduct from that the +charges?-Yes. + +11,291. You charge these as curing 281/6 tons at 50s. per ton, dry +fish, £70, 8s. 4d.?-Yes; that includes the salt. + +11,292. 'Removing to Lerwick, 5s.-£7, 0s. 10d.?'-Yes; the fish +were at Whiteness and had to be brought here. + +11,293. 'Master's fee, 6s. 3d. per ton?'-Yes. I should explain +that the masters generally have 10s. per ton, and the mates 2s. 6d.; +but in this case the master and the mate agreed to go equal, and +divide the extras together, so that instead of 10s. and 2s. 6d., they +had 6s. 3d. each. + +11,294. That was £8, 16s. 11/2d. to each?-Yes. + +11,295. The second mate's extra of 1s. 6d. came to £2, 2s. 3d., and +then the score money is charged at £24, 19s. 6d.: what is that?- +The men have 6d. for every score of fish they catch, as an +encouragement to them to do their utmost. That sum is taken off +the gross, and is divided among the men according to the number +of scores each has taken. + +11,296. The next entry is, 'Bait at Shetland £6, and Faroe £5, 2s. +8d.?'-Yes; the master employs people to get bait for him here +and at Faroe. + +11,297. He does so at the expense of the whole partnership?-Yes. + +11,298. These charges being deducted; there remains £347, 14s. +7d., the vessel's proportion of which is £173, 17s. 4d., and the rest +is divided among the crew according to their different shares?- +Yes. + +11,299. Is the charge of 50s. per ton for curing, a uniform +charge?-In some years it is higher. It has cost us as much as +55s., but 50s. is the uniform rate. + +11,300. Is that charge according to an agreement made at the +beginning of the season with the men?-The agreement at the +commencement of the season is, that all necessary expenses shall +be deducted. + +11,301. Then, if the merchant finds that the expense curing is +greater than 50s., is he entitled to increase that charge in the final +account with the men?-Yes. The men are only entitled to one +half of the net proceeds of the speculation. + +11,302. Are your agreements with the men, at the commencement +of the season, in writing or in printing?-They are in writing, +never in printing. + +11,303. But you do enter into a written agreement which each +man signs?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. Sometimes the +agreement does not bind them at all. We can get no damages from +them if they choose to break through it; it is simply a moral +agreement, not a legal one at all. + +11,304. What is the use of having an agreement if it is not +binding?-Just to show their proportion of the speculation, and f +or the sake of making up the half-yearly returns for the Board of +Trade. + +11,305. Have you a regular form of agreement?-I cannot say that +it is uniform; it has to be altered in some years. + +11,306. Do you write out one annually for each smack?-No; it is +all one agreement, which is applicable to the whole of them; there +is no difference whatever. I shall send one of these agreements. + +<Adjourned>. + +SCALLOWAY; TUESDAY, JANUARY 23, 1872 + +GILBERT TULLOCH, examined. + + +11,307. Are you the shopkeeper at Scalloway for Messrs. Hay & +Co.?-I am. + +11,308. They have a curing establishment here, and buy a quantity +of fish?-Yes. + +11,309. They also have a shop in which goods of all descriptions +are sold?-Yes, all that are generally sold to fishermen. + +11,310. Have you the entire management of their business here?- +Yes. + +11,311. You take delivery of the fish from the men, and enter the +quantities received in the fishing book?-I settle with the men for +the fish as I receive them, and I charge the amount against my +employers. + +11,312. You are now speaking of the winter fishing?-Yes. + +11,313. In that fishing each transaction is separate and distinct?- +Yes. The men are paid over the counter as they deliver the fish, +for all that we purchase in Scalloway. They don't go into any +account at all. Where the fish are delivered at other places, they +are settled for at Lerwick. + +11,314. Then with the regular summer fishing you have nothing to +do?-No; Messrs. Hay have curers at the islands for that. + +[Page 278] + +11,315. They have factors at Burra and other places who receive +the fish, and the settlement for them takes place at Lerwick?- +Yes. + +11,316. Your duties consist in managing the business the shop, and +selling the goods there, and in purchasing fish or oil which the +men voluntarily bring to you?-Yes. + +11,317. You have nothing to do with the men who are engaged to +fish in the home fishing?-Nothing. + +11,318. When you take delivery of a quantity of fish from the men, +is no part of that entered in your books?-If the men have taken up +advances before, then these enter the books; and that is done +occasionally. + +11,319. But when it does enter your books, it is entered as a +separate transaction at the time in the fisherman's account in the +ledger?-Yes. + +11,320. That is to say, you have a ledger for the shop transactions +in which each man has an account?-Yes; and if he wishes any +part of his fish to go to his account, to help in clearing it off, I +enter it there. + +11,321. But when you put it to his account, the quantity of fish +delivered at the particular time is stated, with the price, and the +sum is put into the money column?-Yes. + +11,322. Have you many transactions of that kind with the men at +Burra?-Yes; principally in winter. + +11,323. In spring and summer do they sometimes come to you +with fish?-They deliver them at the stations, and they are settled +for at Lerwick, with Messrs. Hay. + +11,324. But do they sometimes endeavour to carry out transaction +with you for ready money or for goods?-Occasionally; when they +require it, they will come to us with a few fish, to get groceries or +any things they want. They are not prohibited from doing that if +they wish it. + +11,325. Messrs. Hay do not forbid them, when they are engaged +for the season, to come to you for any supplies they may want, and +to give their fish in exchange?-That is not forbidden, so far as I +am aware. + +11,326. And in these transactions with fishermen, from whatever +place they come, is the payment generally made in goods or in +money?-Part in both. They get what goods they want, and their +balance is paid in cash. I cannot say that more is paid in goods or +in cash. + +11,327. Is not the great bulk of the fish paid for by out-takes?- +Generally. + +11,328. About how many men are entered in your ledger with +whom you deal in that way?-I could not say exactly. They come +from different places, and could not state the exact number. + +11,329. They are not merely the men who are employed by +Messrs. Hay for the summer fishing, but many others besides?- +Yes. + +11,330. Will you have 100 of these accounts in your ledger?-I +could not say exactly. + +11,331. Is there it separate ledger kept for the Burra men?-Yes. + +11,332. Do they keep all their accounts here?-They keep +accounts with me for all their dealings here, but they deal both +here and in Lerwick. + +11,333. In what season of the year do you make settlement with +the men who have accounts in the way you have described?-The +Burra men all settle at Lerwick. They only get their advances from +me, and they settle at the end of the year with my employers. + +11,334. Is a note of their advances handed in to Lerwick?-Yes. + +11,335. Do you settle here with others than Burra men who deal +with you?-No; they are all settled with at Lerwick. The whole of +the accounts are settled there, unless any man wishes to pay any +provisions he has had himself. He has it in his option to pay these +things to me if he likes; but that is only done in very rare cases. + +11,336. Do you sometimes pay money for fish here?-Sometimes. + +11,337. In what cases does that occur?-In the case of it neutral +man who is not connected with the Lerwick business. + +11,338. Then it is only the men who are in the regular employment +of Messrs. Hay who settle at Lerwick?-Yes. + +11,339. When you have a customer who fishes independently, or +for another firm, and who runs an account in your book, he settles +with you here?-Yes. He keeps an account with me, and I settle +with him. + +11,340. At what season of the year is that done?-It is generally at +the end of the year, at the usual settling time in Shetland. + +11,341. How many men of that description do you suppose there +may be in your books,-men who either sell their own fish all the +year round, or sell their fish to you cured?-There are very few of +them. + +11,342. Most of your customers are in the regular employment of +Hay & Co.?-Yes. + +11,343. And most of them, I suppose, including the Burra men, +are bound by agreement for the year to deliver their fish to that +firm?-They are not bound by agreement, so far as I know. + +11,344. But they are engaged for the summer to fish for the firm, +in the boats of Messrs. Hay?-They are. + +11,345. The bulk of the accounts kept in your shop will be with +such men?-Yes. + +11,346. You were not asked to bring your books?-No. + +11,347. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash you pay +to these few men with whom you settle here?-I could not give an +exact account of it. I have bought about £100 worth of fish, ling +and cod, since May last up to this date. + +11,348. Are you the largest purchaser of fish in that way in +Scalloway?-I could not say; there are other fish-buyers here. + +11,349. There are other parties who buy fish in the same way, and +some other parties who employ boats of their own for the summer +fishing?-There are a few, but not many. + +11,350. Mr. Nicholson has some?-Yes. + +11,351. And Mr. Tait has one?-I suppose he has but he does not +do much in that way. + +11,352. Is the amount you have stated the ordinary amount which +you purchase during the same period each year?-It is sometimes +more and sometimes less. It just depends on the success of the +fishing. + +11,353. How much of that would be purchased in the summer and +autumn?-Not much in the summer. The greater part will be +purchased in winter. + +11,354. In summer the men are delivering their fish at Burra, so +that less fish are brought to you at that time?-Yes. + +11,355. Are your supplies of goods got from Lerwick from Messrs. +Hay?-Some come from Lerwick, and some come direct from the +south. + +11,356. Are they invoiced to you at wholesale price, or at the price +at which you are expected to sell them?-They are invoiced at the +wholesale price and I fix the retail price myself. + +11,357 What price do you pay for fish to the neutral man who +brings them to you in that way?-It is not always the same; +sometimes it is more and sometimes less. + +11,358. What has been the price this season?-It depends upon the +size of the fish we get. For ling and large cod I paid 6s. a cwt up to +the commencement of this year, and since then I have paid 7s. + +11,359. Do you generally pay that in money?-No; part in goods, +and part in money. + +11,360. Do your books show in what proportion the payments +consist of money, and in what proportion of goods?-We keep no +account of what is paid directly over the counter. I charge my +employers with the amount of fish which I purchase from these +men, and settle with the men at once as I get them. + +11,361. Are the fish brought to the counter?-No, they are +weighed in the store. There are people there for that purpose. + +11,362. When you are weighing them and taking delivery of them, +do you ask the man what he wants?-Yes. He gets whatever +goods he wants. + +11,363. Then when you have taken delivery you go with him to the +shop, and give him either goods or money?-Yes; we give him the +goods, and then the balance in cash. + +[Page 279] + +11,364. If it is not convenient for you to go yourself, suppose you +have a shopman who will act in the shop in your stead?-We have +a man for weighing, the fish, and he comes up with the account of +the fish he has got, and then we settle with the men according to +the weight which he gives in to us. + +11,365. Does the man who takes in the fish enter their weight in +any book at the time?-No; he marks it down upon a board, or +anything, and comes up to the shop as soon as he has weighed for +a boat's crew, and gives in the weight. We enter that in our book, +and pay the price to the men. + +11,366. Does the man who weighs the fish always come up to the +shop?-Yes. + +11,367. He does not send a note of the weight he always comes +himself?-No, he always comes himself. + +11,368. Do you ever pay the price altogether in cash-Sometimes; +if the men want no goods we pay it in cash. + +11,369. Is that a usual thing?-It is not usual; but sometimes it is +the case. + +11,370. Is there any particular reason for paying it all in cash when +that is done?-If the party wants no goods, then he gets the cash. + +11,371. Or if he wants the cash for any particular purpose?-Yes. + +11,372. I suppose he will generally tell you if he wants the cash for +any particular reason?-Sometimes he does. + +11,373. And you make no objection to giving it to him?-No, not +if he wants it. + +11,374. Do you give him the same price in cash as in goods?- +Quite the same; it makes no difference; we have a fixed price. + +11,375. Is it entirely in the choice of the men whether they take +goods or cash?-Yes. + +11,376. But is it not part of the system that the payment is for +the most part taken in goods?-That depends upon the parties +themselves. + +11,377. Do you mean to say, that if the fishermen were all to +combine and ask for their payment in cash, they would get it, or +would that necessitate any change in your system of carrying on +business?-I suppose they would get it; but we might not have +enough cash to pay out such large sums as that. We are not near +any bank, and we might not have sufficient cash in hand for all +that we required, if the payment was wholly in cash. + +11,378. Would you find it inconvenient to pay for these fish +altogether in cash?-Yes, unless my employers were to give +me sufficient cash to meet their demands. + +11,379. Your arrangements are made upon the footing, I suppose, +that the bulk of the payments are to be taken in goods?-That is +understood, although there is no arrangement made about it. + +11,380. There is no arrangement made with the men, but it is +understood that a great proportion of the transactions are to be +settled for in goods?-If the men get as good articles from us as +they can get from any other party, I don't see why they should not +take payments in that way. + +11,381. It might very well happen, I suppose, that even if you did +pay in cash, the man would take his cash and spend it at your +shop?-Yes; and sometimes that is done. + +11,382. But, in point of fact, your business arrangements are made +upon the footing that the great amount of the fish sales are to be +paid for in goods?-There is no arrangement at all. + +11,383. But your own business arrangements are made on that +footing? You don't keep a sufficient supply of cash to meet the +requirements of a ready-money trade?-No, that has not been the +practice. + +11,384. Then is it not an exceptional case, and a mere favour to +the fisherman, to pay him in money?-It is in his own option to +take either goods or money. If he wants the goods he gets them, +and if not we pay him in cash. + +11,385. But is it not the case that a man is not paid in cash unless +he expressly asks for it?-He is not paid in cash unless he wishes +it. He gets whatever goods he requires, and the balance is paid +over to him in cash. + +11,386. The first thing settled between you, after fixing the price, +is what goods the man is to take?-Yes. + +11,387. And after that, if there is any balance over, it is paid to +him in cash?-Yes. + +11,388. But, as a rule, he takes out his goods first?-Yes. + +11,389. Do you suppose that three-fourths of the value of the fish +sold are paid for in goods?-I could hardly say. We never keep +any account of that. + +11,390. What is the usual quantity of fish brought to you at one +time in winter from one boat?-It varies very much. + +11,391. Will it be two or three cwts.?-Sometimes more, and +sometimes less. + +11,392. Would five cwt. be a good catch for it day in winter?- +Yes, it would be a good catch. + +11,393. Are there many ling caught in winter?-Not many. There +are very few tusk caught then. They are chiefly cod, and some +ling. There are three classes of cod. There is a large class, and a +small class, and a middle size, and the price is different. The price +for small cod is now 5s. per cwt., but the large cod that can be sent +to Spain are always paid for higher. The price for them is 7s. now. + +11,394. Suppose a man were bringing five cwt. of cod to you, he +would get, I suppose, about 30s. for it, if it were equally composed +of large and small cod?-Yes. That would be divided among the +men in the boat,-say three or four men. + +11,395. That would be about 7s. 6d. each?-Yes, supposing the +price to be at the rate you have mentioned. + +11,396. Would it be usual for the man to get the whole of that 7s. +6d. in goods?-That would depend upon himself. Perhaps he +might require two-thirds of it in goods, and the other third in cash. + +11,397. Would 2s. 6d. be about the largest sum would get in +money upon such a catch of fish?-It might be more or less. + +11,398. But he would sometimes get it all in goods, I suppose?- +Sometimes. + +11,399. Do you remember any case in which he got it all in +cash?-There have been several cases of that kind. I was looking +in the shop books before I came here, and I picked up some papers +in the shop showing how much cash they get. [The witness +handed in papers containing the following accounts:- + +<Robert Goodlad>. + + 11s. 71/2d. +Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., £0 1 61/2 +Loaf, 4d.; sugar, 11/2d. 0 0 51/2 +Soap, 21/2d., sulphur, 11/2d., 0 0 4 +Soda, 11/2d.; cotton, 1s. 6d. 0 1 71/2 +Cotton, 0 0 3 +Porter, 5d.; biscuit, 3d.; cash, 6s. 9d., 0 7 5 + £0 11 71/2 + +<Thomas Goodlad>. + 11s. 71/2d. +Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 61/2d.; £0 1 101/2 +Tobacco, 8d.; oatmeal, 1s. 3d., 0 1 11 +Soap, 21/2d.; sund. 51/2d., 0 0 8 +Cotton, 11d., 0 0 11 + £0 5 41/2 +Cash, 0 6 3 + £0 11 71/2 + +<William Pottinger>. + 8s. 3d. +Tobacco, £0 1 0 +Tea, 0 0 8 +Cash, 0 6 7 + £0 8 3 + +[Page 280] + +<Laurence Smith>. + 8s. 3d. +Oatmeal, 1s. 101/2d.; tobacco, 6d. £0 2 41/2 +Stamps. 2d.; paper, 21/2d., 0 0 41/2 +Soap and sod, 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., 0 0 61/2 +Shoe-brush, 6d, 0 0 6 +Handkf., 10d.; loaf, 4d.; syrup, 3d., 0 1 5 +Soda and thd., 11/2d. 0 0 11/2 +Acct., 1s.; cash, 1s. 11d., 0 2 11 + +<P. Lesslie>. + 17s. 5d. +Rum, 6d.; cash, 1s., £0 1 6 +Do. 9d.; tea, 1s. 2d., 0 1 11 +Tea, 1s. 2d.; sugar, 6d., 0 1 8 + £0 5 1 + Cash, . . 0 12 4 + £0 17 5] + +These are notes made at the time when the settlement was made + with the men. + +11,400. Do you remember when these settlements took place?- +No. I merely found these papers in the shop, and brought them +here. It may have been about three or four weeks ago, or it may +have been longer. + +11,401. Has there not been a much larger amount of cash paid in +these cases than is usual in such transactions?-It is larger than in +some cases. + +11,402. And you might have found other slips or notes in which +the whole amount was taken out in goods?-I don't know about +that. But that is the way in which we settle, and the fish are +afterwards charged to my employers. + +11,403. Is it not often the case that there is not more than 1s. paid +in cash on a transaction of 8s. or 10s.?-Sometimes that is the +case. + +11,404. Is it not oftener under 1s. than over it?-I could hardly say +about that. + +11,405. Is it not oftener under 1s. 6d. than over it?-I should say +that it is. + +11,406. Can you say that, in half the cases that occur, there is a +cash balance paid at all?-No. I would not say that there was so +little cash paid as that. + +11,407. But you could not say to the contrary?-I could not say +either the one way or the other. + +11,408. In the case of a separate and distinct sale of fish, such as +we have been speaking of, the price is paid in full, and there are no +deductions of any kind to be made?-None. + +11,409. The boats and the lines are the men's?-Yes, unless some +of them may have got credit for their boats and lines. + +11,410. Do you hire out boats for the winter fishing?-No; the +men have boats of their own. + +11,411. But they may have got the lines at your shop, and they +may be standing against them there?-Yes, either standing against +them, or they may have settled for them with Hay & Co. + +11,412. In that case you may retain the price of the winter fish to +meet the price of the lines or boat?-Yes, if the men wish that to +be done. + +11,413. Or if you have a heavy debt against the men, you may +retain the price of the fish whether the men choose or not?-That +is never done by me. + +11,414. Has there never been an arrangement or understanding by +which a portion of the fish delivered to you in that way is retained +on account of the lines or boats supplied to the men?-No, not in +winter. + +11,415. Have either you or Messrs. Hay & Co. any interest at all +in the boats used in the winter or spring fishing?-I have none. I +have only a share of one herring boat. I receive a salary from +Messrs. Hay. + +11,416. Have Messrs. Hay any interest in the boats used in the +winter fishing?-No; the boats belong to the men, and they have +them on their own account. + +11,417. Have you an interest in several of the boats engaged in the +summer fishing?-No. As I have said, I have only one share of a +herring boat. + +11,418. You have no share in any of the smacks that go to the +Faroe fishing?-No. + +11,419. Are you not part-owner of some boats employed in the +summer fishing?-No. + +11,420. Were you ever so?-No. I have never had any share of +any boat except the herring boat that I have a share in now. + +11,421. Have you the management of Messrs. Hay's curing +establishment here?-Yes. + +11,422. There is a large curing establishment here, with +beaches?-Yes. + +11,423. How many people are employed there in the fishing +season?-It depends on the success of the fishing in the summer, +and the amount of fish we get. + +11,424. How many were employed last year?-I could not say +exactly. Perhaps about ten or a dozen were employed about the +beaches at Scalloway. + +11,425. Had you the superintendence of the beaches at Burra?- +No; there were men appointed for that. + +11,426. With regard to the ten or a dozen employed at Scalloway, +were those men, women and boys?-Yes. + +11,427. Were they paid weekly wages?-Yes. They were paid +every Saturday, either by me or at the shop. + +11,428. Were they paid in money every Saturday?-No, they had +to get supplies during the week; and at the end of the week any +balance they had was paid in cash. + +11,429. Was there generally a balance due?-It was very rarely +that there was. They had generally to get supplies to the full +amount of their wages. + +11,430. Is payment made to them in the shop at the counter?- +Yes. Their advances are entered against them in the book, and +then their wages are placed to their credit and if they have +anything to get it is given to them. + +11,431. Is there a separate ledger account for each of these +parties?-Yes, every one has an account, and when he gets +advances these are put to that account. + +11,432. Can you say that any money ever passes at any settlement +with these beach people?-Sometimes there has been a little, but +not a great deal. + +11,433. Will their average wages be 8s. or 9s. a week?-Not so +much. In summer the women get 10d. a day, and in winter 1s. +We have a few people employed in winter, but not so many as in +summer. + +11,434. Are you engaged in the hosiery business at all?-No. + +11,435. Do you purchase any quantity of butter and eggs from the +people in the district?-Not a great quantity. There are no cattle +in the village to give butter, but I buy a small quantity from people +in the district. + +11,436. Is that paid for in goods?-Yes. + +11,437. Do the Burra people bring butter and eggs to you +sometimes?-Very little. They sometimes bring a few eggs in +summer, and they always get goods in return for them. + +11,438. Do the Burra people bring all their eggs to you?-No; they +are at liberty to sell them to any person they choose. + +11,439. When settling time comes, what have you to do with the +men who have accounts in your books?-I send in a note of each +man's account to Messrs. Hay, at Lerwick. + +11,440. Has the man checked his account in any way before you +send it in?-If they choose, they can get their accounts read over +to them. Some of them have pass-books, while others have only +their accounts read over. + +11,441. Do they all get them read over to there?-Generally they +do. If they have any doubt about their account, they get it read +over; but I have very few disputes of that sort with them. + +11,442. Is it the general practice to read over the accounts to the +men?-If they wish it. + +11,443. But do they generally wish it?-Some of them do, and +some do not. + +11,444. I suppose the majority do not?-Yes. + +11,445. Are they rather careless about these things?-Yes. + +[Page 281] + +11,446. Suppose you read over a man's account to him, and he +objects to any of the items, how could he get that corrected?- +Sometimes a man may forget, and he would come to recollect +afterwards; but it is very seldom that that occurs with us. + +11,447. If he has not a pass-book, has he any means of checking +his account at all?-Yes; by his own memory. + +11,448. But when you have an entry in your own book, and he says +it is wrong, do you correct that entry according to his memory?- +No; we would not do that. + +11,449. You try to convince him that he is in error?-Yes, and we +generally succeed. + +11,450. Do you always succeed?-I would say so but we have had +very few cases of that sort. + +11,451. Don't you think it would be much better if the men would +all take pass-books?-Yes; it would prevent any doubt about these +matters. + +11,452. But I suppose it would give you a good deal more +trouble?-It would. + +11,453. Is there anything to hinder you from paying ready money +when you are settling the price of fish as they are delivered?-If +the law was that, we would have to do it the same as others. + +11,454. But is there anything to prevent you from doing it, +although there is no law on the subject?-There is nothing to +prevent us. + +11,455. Would it not facilitate your business a good deal?-Yes. + +11,456. You could carry on your business with less trouble to +yourself ,-only the men might perhaps spend the money at +another shop, instead of yours?-Yes. + +11,457. Is the price paid for winter fish, when they are bought by +you in small quantities, less than is usually paid for summer fish +#at settling-time?-No, it is the same price. + +11,458. Have you the management of the oyster fishing here?- +There are very few of them caught. I have not the management of +that, but I sometimes buy a few. + +11,459. Do you sometimes buy lobsters?-Not many. + +11,460. Are they all paid for in goods in the same manner, and to +the same extent, that you have mentioned?-Yes, just in the same +way as the others. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, LAURENCE MONCRIEFF, examined. + +11,461. You are a baker and provision merchant in Scalloway?-I +am. + +11,462. You are not a fish-merchant at all?-No. + +11,463. Do you purchase hosiery to some extent?-I purchase +fancy hosiery to a small extent,-principally veils and shawls, +and things of that kind. + +11,464. Do you usually pay for it in goods from your shop?-Yes. + +11,465. Do you pay for it to any extent in money?-No. I never +give money for hosiery. + +11,466. Is it always understood that people selling hosiery at your +shop are to take goods in exchange?-That is always understood. + +11,467. Are you often asked for money?-No. It is always the +understanding that they are to take goods but I have been asked +once or twice for money. + +11,468. Do you employ any people to knit with your wool?-Yes. + +11,469. Are they paid in the same way?-Yes. + +11,470. Are they employed entirely in knitting, or do they +sometimes work at other things?-Some of them depend entirely, +or almost entirely, on knitting; but when they require money for +their rent or for any particular article which they cannot get for +knitting, then, I suppose they have to work at something else. + +11,471. Or perhaps they sell their knitting to a shop where they can +get what they want although you do not deal in it?-Yes. + +11,472. They may go to Lerwick and sell it for soft goods?-They +may; but I keep a small assortment of soft goods. + +11,473. Therefore they can get most of the articles they want in +your shop?-Yes. + +11,474. If they cannot get the articles they want are you aware +whether they have sometimes been obliged to sell the goods they +have got for hosiery, in order to procure what they want?-A +case or two of that kind has come before me. I remember one +occasion, when I gave a woman some provisions for some soap +or something, when she was in a difficulty for the provisions; but +that is the only case of the kind that I remember clearly about. +Perhaps there may have been more. + +11,475. What was the nature of that case?-I suppose she had +bartered her knitting for the soap in some place. She was requiring +provisions, and could not get them, and she exchanged the soap to +me for provisions. + +11,476. Was that long ago?-It is some time ago but I don't +remember the exact time. + +11,477. Did that case strike you as being in any way peculiar or +extraordinary?-No. Very few of the hosiery dealers keep +provisions, so that at the time the woman had no other way of +getting them. + +11,478. What price did you give the woman for the soap which she +sold to you?-I think I gave her as near my own selling price as I +could. It was a small quantity only that she offered to me and it +was not worth making any difference upon it. That is generally +what I do in cases of that kind which happen to come before me. + +11,479. Do you generally give them as near as possible your own +selling price for the soap?-Yes. + +11,480. Just enough to allow yourself a little commission for +your trouble?-No, I don't think I could have any commission +on the like of that; at least I don't make a practice of charging a +commission in cases of that kind. I don't like to do it if it can be +avoided, but in cases of great necessity I sometimes find it my duty +to do so. + +11,481. You sometimes find it your duty to relieve people's +necessities in that way?-Yes, sometimes, if I can manage it. + +11,482. But don't you give them a lower price than that which they +have nominally purchased the soap for?-I don't think I do that. + +11,483. Do you not buy the soap so as to make some little profit +upon it when you re-sell it?-The amount of the transactions in +that way is so small that I can hardly say. I try to avoid doing it at +all; and unless in a case of extreme necessity, I would not do it. It +is merely in a case where it is required in order to save life that I +do anything of the kind. + +11,484. How many women do you usually employ in knitting with +your own wool?-I have had very few employed for some time +back, perhaps only two or three. + +11,485. Do they keep accounts with you for what they want?- +Very few of them. I just pay them at the time; but I have a few +accounts that I run with some of them. + +11,486. Are these accounts both with women who knit with your +wool, and with women who knit with their own wool and sell their +goods to you?-It is principally with those who knit with my wool +that I have accounts. + +11,487. What was the name of the person from whom you bought +the soap on the occasion you have mentioned?-I think it was +either Margaret or Catherine Irvine. + +11,488. Was that a very exceptional case?-I should think so. + +11,489. Have you not frequently bought from women the goods +which they had got in shops at Lerwick?-No, not frequently. +That is the only case I remember of distinctly. I remember +something being said about the women bringing goods for sale at +other times, but I have no distinct recollection about that. It would +hardly do for me to make a practice of that, because I have to live +and support my family by my profits. + +[Page 282] + +11,490. But if the women were disposed to sell the goods to you at +such a price as would enable you to derive a profit on your re-sale +of them, that would be quite legitimate and fair?-Yes; but they +could not do that. + +11,491. Why?-Because it would cause them a considerable loss. + I suppose the goods are priced at an advance before they get them, +and they could not afford to sell them to me at a less price than +they had paid for them themselves. + +11,492. You said you had heard of other cases being mentioned, in +which women had offered their goods for sale: what have you +heard about that?-I have heard some of my family speaking about +the women getting their goods exchanged for provisions, or +something of that kind. + +11,493. Is your shop generally attended by yourself, or by some of +your family?-It is generally attended by mny brother-in-law; he is +not here. + +11,494. Can you say that he has not bought goods in that way from +knitters?-I think not. I don't think he would do that without +letting me know about it. + +11,495. Do you know of any person here who purchases goods in +that way from women who have got them for their hosiery?- +There may be such persons but I am not aware of any one who +makes a trade of it, or who could make a trade of it. There may be +some who do that in order to oblige a woman or to relieve her +necessities, but I don't think they could make a practice of it. I +have heard of Mrs. Tait doing it in that way. + +11,496. Would you show me where you keep your accounts with +these women?-Yes. [Produces book.] It is only a small part of +that book which I use for that purpose. This [showing] is an +account of a woman who dresses for me. Besides what is entered +to her account, she is sometimes paid by goods which do not +appear in the book at all. + +11,497. I see here an entry: 'To amount from line:' do you give +lines?-I sometimes give a line to her when I do not care about +entering it in the book. I should like better to pay her at once what +I was due to her, if I could possibly do so. + +11,498. What was the purpose of giving the line?-Just as a +security. + +11,499. She did not want the goods at the time, and you did not +want to open an account?-No. + +11,500. You would rather that these women would take the goods +at once than have the trouble of keeping an account with them?- +Yes. + +11,501. What was the form of the line you gave?-It was just a +credit note, bearing the name of the party and the amount for +which they had to get credit from me. + +11,502. Is the amount of that note understood to be paid in goods +or in money?-It is never understood to be paid in money. I could +not give the same price in money as I could give in goods. + +11,503. Does the line express whether it is to be paid in goods or +in money?-No. + +11,504. Do you issue many of these lines?-Not many; very few +require them. They generally take out goods to the full amount at +once. + +11,505. How did you happen to enter that line in your book?-The +woman was getting fully more work from me than she could take +out in goods at once, and she preferred to continue working for me +and to get things for her family as she required them. + +11,506. I see that the bulk of the entries in these accounts are for +provisions?-Yes, and for such other goods as we keep-tea, +sugar, loaves, butter, meal, flour, soda and other things. + +11,507. Where do you get your supplies of worsted?-Principally +from Edinburgh or Leith. + +11,508. Do you buy any Shetland worsted?-No; I cannot get it to +buy. + +11,509. Have you tried to get it and found it difficult?-Not often. +It was only last spring that I began the hosiery trade at all. + +11,510. Do you import all your worsted direct from Edinburgh, or +do you get any of it through the Lerwick houses?-I get it all from +a wholesale house in Edinburgh. + +11,511. What is the quality of the worsted you get from there?-It +is generally the finest quality, but not mohair. I don't deal in +mohair at all. We generally use two qualities for veils, and these +qualities are distinguished by numbers, but I don't remember the +numbers just now. I buy it by the pound, and I think it costs me +from 5s. to 8s. per pound. + +11,512. Do you sell the worsted to knitters?-Yes, when I have an +extra supply of it. + +11,513. Are you paid for it in hosiery articles or in cash?-In +either way; I give it for either when I do sell it. When they have a +quantity of hosiery to sell, I prefer them to take an assortment of +goods, because provisions are a thing that most people have very +little profit upon. If they take the whole price in meal or in +anything of that kind, I would not have much profit upon it. + +11,514. You would rather have them to take some of the price in +soft goods?-Not in soft goods, but in an assortment of groceries. + +11,515. When a woman brings her hosiery to you first fix the +price, and then, I suppose, you ask her what she wants?-Yes. + +11,516. When you come down to a balance of 1d. or 2d, how do +you settle that?-If they want nothing else, I often give them the +balance in cash. It is the understanding that they are to take the +price for their hosiery in goods, but still I don't hesitate to give +them 1d. or 2d., or any small thing in money. + +11,517. You may give them a penny, or a postage stamp, or a +package of sweeties, or anything of that sort?-Yes. + +11,518. Have you any accounts with fishermen?-No; they +generally run their accounts at the places where they are +employed. I would not like to run the risk of supplying them. +I think those who are getting the benefit of their fishing ought to +run the risk of giving them what supplies they want. I deal with +a good many of them in ready money for bread and provisions; +not to a very large extent but just in a general way. + +11,519. Do you find that they always have ready money with +which to pay you for provisions and bread?-Most of those who +deal with me have. + +11,520. Do you think businesses such as yours would be improved +if the fishermen were paid in ready money for the fish they +take?-It is possible they might. + +11,521. Don't you think you would have a better chance of +succeeding in business if the fishermen did not have such long +credits?-It is very likely. + +11,522. They would have more ready money in their hands +throughout the year?-Some of them would. + +11,523. At what season of the year have you the largest receipts in +your ready money business?-In summer and harvest, I think; but +I attribute that more to the weather than to anything else. The +country people cannot get to the place in all weathers; they have +often to come by sea, and then if they leave home at all it is +generally just as easy for them to get to Lerwick as to go to +Scalloway. + +11,524. Still I don't see how that accounts for your ready money +business being larger in summer and harvest than at other periods +of the year?-The boats can come from the west side and from the +islands in summer more readily than they can in winter, when, +perhaps, they cannot get away for weeks. It is chiefly upon people +in the country that my business depends. The village of Scalloway +is small, and the business from it is also small, so that it is only +when the weather is suitable that my customers from the country +cannot in to deal with me. + +11,525. Do you have a larger amount of business from your +immediate neighbours in the spring than at other seasons?-No, +I have not noticed that. The business is so mixed up that I can +hardly say. + +11,526. You don't think the fishermen round about you come to +deal with you to a larger extent after settling time in spring than at +other periods of the year?-I am not aware of that. + +[Page 283] + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CLEMENTINA GREIG, examined. + +11,527. You live at Braehead, Scalloway, with your sister?-Yes. + +11,528. Your mother died about two years ago a very old +woman?-Yes; she was 95. + +11,529. Have you supported yourself for a long time by +knitting?-Yes; I began to knit thirty-three years ago, and +since then I have not earned a sixpence by anything else, +except my own family work. My mother also depended on +me. + +11,530. What kind of knitting do you do?-Shawls and veils. + +11,531. Have you ever got any money for your work?-I have sold +several shawls and veils to gentlemen who were travelling through +the country in July and August, and got money for them; but I +never got a penny in all my life from any of the merchants in +Lerwick. I was the first individual in Scalloway who commenced +to knit, and I have taught many of the people here. + +11,532. Do you knit with your own wool, or with worsted that is +given out to you?-On several occasions, within the last three +years, I have bought some Scotch worsted; but before that I always +spun the wool myself, and sold my own goods. I never knitted a +shawl or a veil for a merchant in my life. + +11,533. Did you think it better to knit with your own material?-I +think it paid a little better when we got a price for it, but it was +very seldom that a sufficient price was given. For shawls that I +used to get £1 for from gentlemen in the south, the merchants +never offered me more than 17s. or 18s., and that was paid in +goods. + +11,534. Who did you knit most to?-To Mr. Robert Sinclair. I +scarcely ever sold a shawl to any other merchant than him. + +11,535. Have you sometimes asked him for money?-Yes. Two +years ago, when my mother was dying, and my sister was brought +in with a broken limb, I took a shawl to Lerwick, in order to get a +doctor. I went to Mr. Sinclair with the shawl, and he asked what I +wanted. I said I was selling it in a case of necessity, and that I +wanted 18s., and he offered me 17s. I asked him, if he would give +me a little money if I sold it to him for 17s., but he said he would +not, and he rejected it. I sold the same shawl, when I came back, +to Mr. Garriock, Reawick, and I got £1 for it in money from him. + +11,536. Does Mr. Garriock buy shawls for sale?-No. He told me +he had got an order from some ladies for such work; and generally +when he gets an order he buys one or two of these things from me, +and sends them off to his friends, but he is not a merchant. + +11,537. The shawl which you sold for £1 would be a large fine +shawl?-Yes. I have got as high as 25s. in money for them. + +11,538. How long does it take you to make such a shawl?-When +I spin the wool myself it takes me a month, but with clean worsted +I will make it in about three weeks. + +11,539. How many cuts does it take to make a shawl of that +sort?-It takes 32 cuts of Shetland worsted to make a shawl of +about 22 or 23 scores, 21/2 yards square. + +11,540. Where do you buy the wool that you spin?-I often buy it +in the shops in Lerwick when they have it to sell. + +11,541. Do some of the merchants in Lerwick sell the wool?- +Yes, when it comes in. The poor people who bring it from the +country sell it for meal and goods, and the merchants send it out +again. I have bought it from Mr. George Laurenson for the last six +or seven years. He gets the best of it from Unst. His shop is in +Lerwick, beside Mr. Sinclair's. + +11,542. Do you buy that wool by the lb.?-Yes; we pay 1s. 6d. for +the finest wool, and half pound of that makes a shawl. It will +produce 32 or 33 cuts, and make such a shawl as I sold for £1. I +last bought wool from Mr. Laurenson in July of last year. I got 11/2 +lbs. at that time at 1s. 6d. a lb. When I am busy I buy some Scotch +worsted and knit it too. + +11,543. Is the Scotch worsted what is called Pyrenees wool?-Yes. + +11,544. Where do you buy it?-From Mr. Sinclair but when we +sell him a shawl he will not give us worsted back upon the shawl. + +11,545. Not even Scotch worsted?-No. I must pay the money for +worsted, whether it is Scotch or Shetland. The Scotch worsted +sells by the oz., at 10d. or 1s., according to the fineness of thread. +It takes 6 oz. of that worsted to make a shawl for which I will get +£1. + +11,546. Have you bought any Shetland worsted?-I have always +bought the wool and spun it myself. + +11,547. How long will the spinning of half-a-pound take?-It will +take me a week to spin it sitting very close at it and sleeping very +little. + +11,548. Would it be cheaper to buy the Scotch worsted?-Yes; +but articles made of it do not sell so well. The Shetland worsted +is preferred, as being much better. + +11,549. Do you think you will have a larger profit on a shawl, the +wool for which you have been a week in spinning, and in knitting +which you have been employed another four weeks, than on a +shawl which you make of Scotch worsted?-Yes. + +11,550. When you buy the Scotch worsted and make a shawl of it, +how long will it take you to knit it?-I will make it in less than +three weeks. + +11,551. What will be the difference in the price which you get for +the shawl at the end of that time?-When I have sold a shawl +made of Scotch worsted to gentleman or lady who happened to be +in the country in July or August I have got as much for it as for one +made of Shetland worsted, because the one is as fine as the other, +but they prefer the Shetland thread to the Scotch thread. The +merchants in Lerwick will not buy a Scotch shawl from me. They +put out worsted of that kind to be knitted for themselves, but they +will not buy such things from us. They will only buy the real +Shetland work. + +11,552. Have you ever done any knitting in silk?-No. + +11,553. Is it as a favour that the merchants sell you worsted when +they do sell it?-No. They are quite willing to sell it if we have +money to pay for it. + +11,554. Have you asked for worsted in return for your hosiery?- +Yes. I asked it from a Mr. Sinclair, and he would not give it. I +have asked that both from himself and from some of the men in +his shop, and they said it was not a customary thing, and they +could not give it. + +11,555. Have you ever offered to take a lower price for your +knitting if you were paid in money?-Yes. In the case I have +mentioned, I offered to take a less price if they would give me 1s. +or 2s. in money; but they refused, and I took home my shawl, and +did not sell it to them. + +11,556. In that case did you ask for the whole price in money?- +No; I only asked him if he would give me a little money upon it. +The price I asked for the shawl was 18s., and I offered to give it to +him for 17s. if he would give me some money. + +11,557. Did he price the shawl at 20s.?-No; he priced it at 17s. I +priced it at £1 and I got that for it when I took it home. + +11,558. Have you ever been obliged to exchange any of the goods +you got from the hosiery merchants?-I never exchanged anything +for provisions, because when parties came to the country in July +and August, I would often get two or three shawls sold to them for +money. + +11,559. Do you know that people who knit have sometimes been +obliged to exchange soft goods for provisions?-I believe there are +some who have been under the necessity of doing that. + +11,560. Do you know any people who make a practice of buying +goods from women in that way?-No, I don't know any one who +makes a practice of it. + +[Page 284] + +11,561. Are there not some people who go about the country +hawking goods, which they have bought from the women?-I +believe there are; but I do not know their names, because I have +never been in the habit of dealing with them. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, EUPHEMIA RUSSELL, examined. + +11,562. You live with your mother at Blackness, Scalloway?- +Yes. + +11,563. Your mother is an old-woman and bedridden?-Yes; she +is seventy-two. + +11,564. Do you support yourself by knitting?-Yes, or by out-door +work when knitting cannot be sold for money. + +11,565. Would you give your whole time to knitting if you could +get money for your work?-Yes. + +11,566. How long are you obliged to go to out-door work in the +year? Two or three months every year?-Yes; if it was all put +together, it would be two or three months. + +11,567. Do you just go to that when you want money?-Yes. + +11,568. Is it in the fields or the fish that you work?-Sometimes in +the fields and sometimes at the fish. + +11,569. For how long have you been in the habit of knitting?-For +about twenty-five years. + +11,570. Have you often been paid in money for it?-Never, except +on an occasion when a stranger was passing, or when Mr. Garriock +would take my work. He has sold several shawls for me. + +11,571. Did you hear what Clementina Greig said about the +quantity of worsted required for a shawl?-Yes; I agree with her +evidence about that. + +11,572. Have you bought wool yourself?-Yes; I have bought +wool from Widow Nicholson, who lives near here, and also from +James Williamson, when he had a little to spare. I paid 1s. 6d. for +his wool, and 1s. 4d. for hers; but that was not used entirely for +shawls. I took the best of it for shawls, and the rest was used for +other purposes. + +11,573. Did you spin that wool yourself?-Yes. When my mother +was in health she spun it; but I spin it for myself now. + +11,574. Do you take as long to spin it as Clementina Greig said?- +Yes, quite as long. + +11,575. Do you sometimes get a little money for your hosiery?- +Not from the merchants in Lerwick. I never ask for it there, +because it is not the custom to give it. + +11,576. Do you keep an account with any of these merchants?- +No. I just sell my goods right off, and settle for them at once. + +11,577. Have you ever sold them any hosiery made of Scotch +worsted?-No. I never made with that Scotch worsted; I always +made my own worsted. + +11,578. Have you ever had occasion to exchange any of the goods +which you got from the merchants for your hosiery?-I have +exchanged tea for meal with the country people round about, but +nothing else. I took more tea from the merchant than I intended to +use myself, and I have given it in exchange for meal several times. + +11,579. Do you generally take a quantity of tea from Mr. +Sinclair?-Yes. When Mr. Sinclair bought my goods, as he +always did when I offered them to him, he never refused to give +me anything in his shop that asked from him, except worsted. I +once asked worsted from him, and I did not get it. + +11,580. But you got everything except worsted or money?-Yes. + +11,581. Have you lately taken more tea than you required, and +exchanged it for meal?-I have not done it this year, because I +sold a shawl to Mr. Garriock, which supplied me with money in +the meantime, and paid my rent and some other little things +besides. + +11,582. When you want money, do you generally get it in that +way?-When I want money, I usually give a shawl to Mr. +Garriock, who will sell it for me when he has the chance. If he +cannot get the shawl sold at the time when we need the money, we +go to out-door work; but Mr. Garriock is kind enough to let the +shawl lie until he can get it sold for us. + +11,583. But one way in which you get money is by selling the tea +which you have got in exchange for your hosiery?-I have never +sold tea for money-only for meal. + +11,584. But when you have no meal, and no money with which to +buy it, that is the way you take to get it?-Yes + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, MARY COUTTS, examined. + +11,585. You and your sister have lived for a long time in +Scalloway with your father and aunt?-Yes. + +11,586. Are they old people?-Yes. + +11,587 Have you and your sister been their chief support by your +knitting?-Yes, and by other work as well. + +11,588. What kind of knitting have you done?-Shawls and veils. + +11,589. Do you knit with your own wool, or have you got it out +from the merchants?-The most of it belonged to the Lerwick +merchants. I knitted it and took it to them. + +11,590. How were you paid for your work?-In tea and goods. + +11,591. Did you ever get money?-No. + +11,592. Did you ever ask for it?-Yes. + +11,593. Did you never get 6d. at a time?-I have got 3d., but that +was the most. I once asked 1s. from Mr. Robert Linklater, to pay +for mending my boots; but it was refused. That was about eight +years ago. + +11,594. And I suppose that did not encourage you to ask it +again?-It did not. We ceased to knit for him. + +11,595. Did you ask for money from anybody else?-Yes. + +11,596. Did you get a little?-Nothing except a mere trifle, +perhaps 11/2d. or 2d. from Mr. Sinclair. + +11,597. Was that merely a balance that you had to get on your +knitting?-No. + +11,598. Have you an account there?-Yes. There is an account in +his books. + +11,599 All your knitting goes into that account and all your +out-takes go into it too?-Yes. + +11,600. You are just paid in goods, with 1d. or 2d. in cash now and +then?-Yes. + +11,601. How do you get your provisions, such as meal and +potatoes?-We give tea to the farmers, and get meal and potatoes +for it. We have sometimes to go to the west side, to Walls and +Sandness, for that. Our aunt Elizabeth Coutts, has done that for +us. She has not been to Walls and Sandness for the last two years, +but she went regularly before. It was only for our own house, not +for other people, that she took the tea there and got the meal and +potatoes in exchange. + +11,602. During the last two years how have you got your meal and +provisions?-We have knitted for Mr. Moncrieff last year. + +11,603. And therefore you did not need to barter your tea?-No. + +11,604. Did you get the full price for your tea from the farmers?- +I suppose we did sometimes, but I could not say. They did not +weigh out the meat and potatoes which they gave in exchange; +they merely gave a little for the tea which my aunt gave them. I +have known her go as far as Papa Stour, twenty-four miles away, +to make these exchanges. That was where most of her friends +were. + +11,605. Have you often had to barter your goods for less than they +were worth?-Sometimes, if there had been 21/2 yards of cotton +lying and a peck of meal came in, we would give it for the meal. +The cotton would be worth 6d. it yard, or 15d.; and the meal +would be [Page 285] worth 1s. I remember doing that about three +years ago; but we frequently sold the goods for less than they had +cost us in Lerwick. + +11,606. Do you make fine shawls?-Yes. + +11,607. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of 21/2 yards +square?-10s. 6d.; and I have got as high 6s. from Mr Moncrieff, +but the worsted was his own. + +11,608. What was the cause of that difference between 10s. 6d. +and 16s.?-The finer the worsted is, the more we get for knitting +it. + +11,609. How many cuts of Shetland worsted would it take to make +such a shawl?-About 34 or 35. The shawl I got 16s. for took +about 7 oz. of Scotch worsted. + +11,610. How long would it take you to make it?-My sister and I +are not in very good health, and we do not work very steadily, but +it would be some weeks from the time we got the worsted until we +returned it. + +11,611. Do you know what these shawls would sell for?-No, + +11,612. Have you never sold a shawl of that kind yourself?-I +have sold shawls to Mr. Sinclair of our own spinning, and got 18s., +19s., and 20s. for them. + +11,613. Were these shawls very much the same as that which you +got 16s. for?-No, they were not so fine. + +11,614. Would they be much the same as those you got 10s. 6d. for +knitting?-Yes; they were quite as fine. + +11,615. And you would sell them for 18s. or 20s. in goods?-Yes. + +11,616. What would the wool of one of those shawls you sold to +Mr. Sinclair cost you?-It would cost 1s. 6d. per lb., and 1/2 lb. +would make one of them. + +11,617. That would be 9d. for the wool. How long would the +spinning take you in the way you work?-Perhaps more than a +week. We have to go to the hill for our peats and turf, and that +takes up part of our time. + +11,618. Which do you think pays you best,-getting 10s. 6d. for +knitting the shawl, or spinning your own wool and selling it?- +Spinning our own wool pays best. + +11,619. Do you sell your shawls yourself?-Sometimes; but our +aunt generally goes with them. + +11 620. Have you asked for money yourself and been refused +it?-Yes; I was only refused it once. + +11,621. What was the largest sum of money you ever got from the +merchants?-3d. or 4d. + +11,622. Did your aunt sometimes succeed better in getting money +than you did?-Sometimes. When visitors were here she would; +she always sold them to them. + +11,623. But when she sold to a merchant, has she often got more +money than you have mentioned just now?-No; when she sold to +the merchants, and did not want to take goods for the whole, she +took a line. It was from Mr. Sinclair that she got lines, and when +we wanted goods we took back the line and got them. We once +got lines from Mr. Tulloch also. We only got goods for them, not +cash. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, ISABELLA HENDERSON, examined. + +11,624. You live in Scalloway with your father and sister?-Yes. + +11,625. Is your father an old man?-Yes. He is between sixty and +seventy years old. He is not fit to work much, but he goes to sea +occasionally in fine weather. + +11,626. Do you and your sister chiefly support the family by your +knitting and other work?-Yes. + +11,627. Do you require cash sometimes for your rent and +provisions?-Yes. + +11,628. Have you a little bit of ground?-Yes. We have a small +bit from the farmers during the season for potatoes. + +11,629. Where do you generally sell your veils?-We just sell +them to any of the merchants. We make them chiefly with our +own wool, but sometimes we get worsted given out to us from Mr. +Sinclair and Mr. Arthur Laurenson. + +11,630. Have you accounts with these merchants?-Yes. We +always had accounts when we got out worsted from them. + +11,631. When you knit for them with their worsted, are you paid in +goods?-Yes. + +11,632. And also when you sell an article of your own?-Yes. + +11,633. Have you ever got any money from them?-No. + +11,634. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes. It is some time ago, +but I asked once or twice, and was refused. After that I was +accustomed to get nothing but tea or soft goods, or anything else +they had in the shop, and I did not ask for money again. + +11,635. Did they ever ask you to take a less price when you asked +for money?-No. + +11,636. Did they never offer to give you money if you would take +less for your goods?-No + +11,637. Have you ever had to exchange your goods for +provisions?-Often. I have done that with several people. +Sometimes, when I sold my veils, I would have to take a line +from Mr. Sinclair; and if I knew any person who was requiring +such goods as Mr. Sinclair kept, I would sell the line to them, and +they would go to Lerwick with it and get what they wanted. + +11,638. Who have you bartered your lines with in that way?-I +am not inclined to tell their names, because it was done to me as a +favour, and they did not wish it to be made known. I may say, +however, that I have given the soft goods to Mrs. Tait in Charles +Nicholson's shop. + +11,639. Was Mrs. Tait always ready to take your goods?-She was +not very ready, but when she saw it was necessary, she would do it +out of kindness. + +11,640. When you dispose of your goods in that way, do you +generally get the full value for them?-Not always. + +11,641. You have to take a little off them in order to get what you +want?-Yes. + +11,642. Do you do that several times in the year?-I do it very +often. + +11,643. Do you know that other knitters have to do the same +thing?-Very likely they do. I believe there are others who +have to do it besides me. + +11,644. Have you often given away your lines in the way you have +mentioned?-Yes, very often. + +11,645. Do you make a practice of it?-Yes, I have had to do it. + +11,646. Do you get a great number of lines in the course of the +year?-Sometimes; not a great many. I just get them as I require +them. + +11,647. What do you get for the lines when you part with them in +the way you have mentioned?-I have got money, and sometimes +provisions. + +11,648. Have you got money for a line lately?-Yes, in harvest. It +was a line for 7s. + +11,649. Did you get 7s. in money for it?-Yes; but when the +people came to take the goods, if they did not get them to their +own mind, I had to make up whatever loss they had upon them. + +11,650. Was that the bargain, that if they did not get their +satisfaction in goods, you were to give them back some of the +money?-No, not the money. I was just to give them something +in addition. Of course, they could not expect the money back +from me. + +11,651. Did you give them anything back?-They have not sought +for it yet, and I cannot say whether they will ask for anything or +not. + +11,652. Have you always got the full amount of the line in money, +when you gave it in that way?-No; not altogether. + +11,653. Have you sometimes given it for less than the sum named +in it?-Yes. + +11,654. For 6d. or 1s. less?-That just depended on the amount of +the line. I could not say particularly. + +11,655. Did you get the full value for all the lines [Page 286] +which you parted with last harvest?-Yes, I got the full value for +them, but it was as a favour to me that I got it. + +11,656. Can you mention any case in which you got less for a line +than the sum that was named in it?-I could not remember any +particular case where that happened with a line; but I have often +suffered a good deal of loss by the soft goods. On one occasion I +lost 1s. 6d. upon 6s. 6d. + +11,657. Did you get 6s. 6d. worth of soft goods, and give them +away for 5s.?-Yes. + +11,658. Did you get 5s. in money?-No; not altogether in money, +but partly in meal. They said the cost price of the articles would +be 5s, and they gave me that value for them. + +11,659. Have you ever given anything back, when the people that +you gave the lines to were not able to satisfy themselves at the +shop?-Yes, once. I gave them the worth of 1s. in other goods +that I had got from the shop. + +11,660. What was the value of that line?-I cannot say. The lines +I have got have run between 3s. and 10s.; but I could not say the +exact amount of that particular line. + +11,661. Do you know any people who make a trade of buying +goods from the knitters, and selling them through the country?-I +could not say that any person makes a trade of it. I don't think any +person would like to do that. + +11,662. Are there not some women who hawk goods through the +country, which they have got in that way?-I know there are and I +have done that myself more than once. + +11,663. What have you done more than once?-Taken the soft +goods which I got at Lerwick, and gone through the country and +sold them. The last time I did that was three years past in spring, +and I had done it before. + +11,664. Was it in a bad year when you did that?-Yes. + +11,665. And you wanted potatoes?-Yes. + +11,666. Had you to travel far in order to get them?-Between two +and three miles. + +11,667. Had you tried often before you got your goods sold?-Not +often. Of course, I had spoken to the people before I took the +goods to them. I did not go out on the chance of selling them. + +11,668. Were the goods taken as a favour to you, and not in the +ordinary way of business?-Yes, it was done quite as a favour. + +11,669. But do you know any person who travels through the +country regularly, and hawks goods which have been bought from +the knitters?-I don't know any person particularly who has done +that. + +11,670. Have you ever heard that such things were done?-I +cannot say that I have. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ANN LEASK or INKSTER, +examined. + +11,671. You live in Scalloway?-I do. + +11,672. Have you sometimes knitted hosiery goods for sale?-Yes; +I have knitted some for Mr. Sinclair. + +11,673. Have you been paid for them in money or in goods?- +When I knitted goods for sale I was paid for them in money. I +knitted some for Dr. Hamilton, Bressay, and I was paid money for +them. He had got an order for them from the south. + +11,674. But when you sold them to merchants, you were paid in +goods?-Yes; I never asked them for any money, because I did not +require it. I always took what I required in cottons, cloth, and so +on. Besides, I knew it was not the practice to give money. + +11,675. Did you sell your own knitting?-No. I knitted for Mr. +Sinclair, except what I got orders to knit from the south. + +11,676. Have you an aunt who knits also?-Yes. + +11,677. Does she sometimes sell shawls made with her own +worsted?-She did formerly, but she does not do so now. + +11,678. Do you think the merchants make any profit by the shawls +they buy?-I cannot say; perhaps they do. + +11,679. They say they sell them to the merchants in the south at +exactly the same rate as they buy them here. Do you know of any +case where a merchant has sold a shawl at a great profit?-No. + +11,680. Do you know of a merchant buying a shawl from you for +15s. or 16s., and then selling it within a few minutes after that for +double the money?-No. I do not remember any case of that kind. + +11,681. Did you ever hear of such a case?-Not so far as I +recollect. + +11,682. Did you or your aunt ever sell a shawl at 15s., or about that +price, which was sold immediately afterwards, in the same shop, to +a gentleman for about twice the money?-I never saw that done. +My aunt may have done so for anything I know, for I was not +always with her. I was in service for some time, and I cannot +answer for what she may have done at that time. My aunt's name +is Ann Williamson; she lives in Scalloway. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH IRVINE or SMITH, +examined. + +11,683. You live in Scalloway?-Yes. + +11,684. Have you been in the habit of knitting?-Yes, a little. I +have knitted for several people, but chiefly for Mr. Sinclair. I have +knitted for him for eleven years, and I keep an account with him. + +11,685. Do you get what goods you want out of his shop?-Yes. +I asked for work from him when I was in great need, and I got +supplies and worsted, and whatever I asked from him. + +11,686. Has that system of dealing been going on for eleven +years?-Yes. + +11,687. Have you always got your supplies from his shop?-I +always got what I asked. + +11,688. Have you got money from him when you wanted it?-Yes. +The first I got was 2s., and the last I got was 10s. + +11,689. What was that for?-I just got it on the work I was doing. + +11,690. When did you get the 10s.?-It was before you came to +Shetland; I cannot tell how many weeks it was ago. I sent off a +score of veils to my sister-in-law in Lerwick, and told her to ask a +few shillings for me. She did so, and Mr. Sinclair gave her 10s. + +11,691. Had she to ask more than once for the money?-No; she +just took in the veils, and he gave her the money, so far as I am +aware. + +11,692. Did you tell her to say what you wanted the money for?-I +did not. + +11,693. Had you ever got as much money as that before?-No; but +whatever money I asked I got, from 6d. upwards. + +11,694. Have you ever asked for a sixpence or a shilling?-I have +asked for it many a time and got it and I generally got a little more +than I asked. + +11,695. Was 2s. the next largest sum you got before the 10s.?- +No, I had got 3s., and 4s. 6d., and so on. + +11,696. Did you want that money to pay your rent with?-I have a +pension of 11s. a quarter from the Merchant Seamen's Fund, and +that pays my rent The pension is paid to me in Lerwick by Mr. +Stewart. + +11,697. Do you always get payment of that yourself when you go +to Lerwick?-Yes, except sometimes when I cannot go, and then I +send a paper to my brother in Lerwick, and he gets the money for +me. My brother is in Mr. Harrison's store. + +11,698. Did you ever have occasion to barter any of the goods you +got for provisions?-I never did that except once when a woman +took a quarter of a pound of tea from me and gave me milk for it, +as I had not [Page 287] the money at the time. She was well +satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's tea., and told me to get it from him. It +was the same to her as money. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, JOHN THOMSON, examined. + + +11,699. You are a shopkeeper and grocer at Sandsound in the +parish of Sandsting?-Yes, in a small way. + +11,700. How far is that from here?-About 10 miles when we go +by land, but it is a little shorter when we go by boat. + +11,701. On whose property is your shop?-On the property of Mr. +Greig of Reawick, and Mr. Umphray is trustee for it. + +11,702. How far are you from Reawick?-About 3 miles. + +11,703. Do you do anything in the fishing?-A little. I buy fish in +winter and spring, but not in summer. I don't have the chance of +buying any in summer. The place is a little inland, and there is not +much fishing carried on there, except in bad weather in winter and +spring when the men go to fish in the bays. + +11,704. Do you cure the fish yourself?-Yes. + +11,705. How much may you buy in the course of a winter and +spring?-In some years I have bought as much as nearly 7 tons of +dry fish, cod and ling, and in other years as low as 2 tons. + +11,706. Do you settle with the men for these fish when they are +delivered to you?-Yes. + +11,707. Do they take the price in money or in goods?-I give them +money unless they want goods, but if they want goods they get +them. + +11,708. Do you ask them if they want anything?-Sometimes, and +at other times if they don't ask for goods I give them the price. + +11,709. You deal both in groceries and soft goods?-Yes, but very +little in soft goods, except at times. + +11,710. Do some of the men run accounts with you?-Some of +them do until about 1st April when they are going to Faroe or to +the south; but with others settle just at the time when they get the +goods or when they give me their fish. That is done either way as +the men prefer it themselves. + +11,711. Do you run accounts with the fishermen for supplies at +other seasons of the year?-Sometimes, when they are a little hard +up in the summer time, I give them a little supply either of meal or +tea, or anything else, to oblige them; but I don't like to do that to a +great extent. I cannot do it very well. + +11,712. Do the fishermen generally go for their supplies in +summer to the larger merchants?-Yes; those who go to the Faroe +fishing generally do so. + +11,713. Why is that?-Because when they are out at the fishing for +the larger merchants, it is better for them to take their supplies at +their shops. + +11,714. But why could they not deal with you as well?-The larger +merchants are more able to give them credit as they are fishing for +them. In summer and harvest I generally sell, for cash when I can +get it, and I am not very able to give long credits. + +11,715. Do you do much business for cash in summer and +harvest?-Not much; about £2 or £3 a week is generally the +most. + +11,716. And I suppose the men and their families generally have +to go to the large merchants where they can get credit at that +season?-At that season of the year they do. + +11,717. Do you think you would have a better business if the men +were paid for their fish as they were delivered?-I suppose I +might. + +11,718. They would not require to get credit then?-No; but the +men who go to Faroe in the smacks have to make long voyages, +and they could not be paid in that way. + +11,719. But there are a number of men at the haaf in your district, +are there not?-No, not in my district. There is scarcely a boat in +my parish. The boats which go to that fishing are farther north-at +Northmaven and Sandness. + +11,720. Then the Faroe fishermen in your parish are only home +twice in the summer?-Yes; they generally come home twice, +once in June, and then about the beginning of harvest but some do +not return until September. + +11,721. Therefore they could not, in that case, be paid at the +delivery of their fish, so as to have cash to deal with a merchant +who is not employing them?-They could not. + +11,722. Do you think you would have a better chance of business +if they were settled with when they came home from Faroe, +instead of having to wait for a good many months for a +settlement?-I don't know. It takes so long a time to get the +fish dried, that I don't think they could very well be settled with +when they came home. + +11,723. They might be settled with then if they were paid +according to the weight of the fish when they were landed?- +Yes; but I could not say whether I would do any better business +in that case or not. + +11,724. Do you think you would do a better business if you had +some boats of your own?-Yes. + +11,725. Why?-Because I would be getting more fish. + +11,726. But would you do a better business in your provisions and +goods?-Yes, I might be a small bit better. + +11,727. Would that be because the men would come to you for +supplies?-Yes; and then I would have more fish too. + +11,728. Are the men at liberty to sell as many fish as they please to +you in winter and spring?-Yes, at any time of the year. + +11,729. Then you could engage a boat's crew in your district +without any restriction?-Yes; there are no bound men there. + +11,730. Are there many merchants in the parish of Sandsting who +do about the same extent of business as you?-I think most of +them do more business than me, because it is longer since they +commenced, and they are better in the way of it. + +11,731. Do you mean that they have got a larger connection?- +Yes; and a better locality. + +11,732. Are most of them engaged in buying fish?-No; there are +scarcely any of them about me who are in the fishing trade, except +Messrs. Garriock & Co. They have almost all the fishing business +in that part of the country. + +11,733. Have they the largest shop business too?-Yes. + +11,734. Whom do you sell your fish to?-To Mr. Harrison +generally. We sell them to him as soon as they are dried at the +end of the year. + +11,735. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if we want cash. + +11,736. If you don't want cash, do you take goods for your +shop?-Yes, if we want them; but if we want cash he gives it at +any time either in advance or at settling time. + +11,737. But he does supply goods in a wholesale way to +merchants?-Yes; he sometimes supplies me with little meal +and tea, and general groceries. + +11,738. Do you not get all your supplies from him?-No, not the +whole of them. I think I get as much from Glasgow as from him; +generally from two houses there. + +11,739. What do you get from Glasgow?-Tea and sugar and +coffee, and general groceries. + +11,740. Do you also get the same articles from Harrison & +Sons?-Yes. + +11,741. Do you pay the same price to both?-They are nearly all +about the same price, except that the goods from Glasgow may be +about a halfpenny per pound less. + +11,742. Is that after allowing for freight?-No; it is taking them at +cost price. + +11,743. Do you write for these things to Glasgow direct?-Yes, +when I get them from there. + +11,744. When do you order them from there?-My [Page 288] +dealings in that way are not always at the one time. Sometimes in +the spring I order them fortnightly, and sometimes monthly, and +sometimes at longer intervals. They are sent to Lerwick in the +steamboat, and brought across to Scalloway by carts, and I come +here with a boat for them. I think it is about six weeks since I got +any tea from Glasgow, and it is a month since I got some other +stuff. + +11,745. Did you come from Sandsound to Scalloway for the tea?- +No; I took it out the north road Weisdale and all overland. + +11,746. Did you come to Scalloway on purpose for that?-No; the +north carts took it out. + +11,747. Do you think the tea which you got in that way cost you +more when it was delivered than the tea you got from Harrison & +Sons?-No. I think that, taking it on the whole, and after paying +the freight it would come to just about the same. + +11,748. Were the qualities the same?-Yes, as near as I could +judge. + +11,749. Do you sell both kinds of tea at the same price?-Yes, at +8d. + +11,750. How much of your fish that you sell to Harrison & Sons +will be paid for in goods?-About one half as near as I can judge. + +11,751. Do you receive the other half in cash?-Yes. + +11,752. Was that the case last year?-Yes. + +11,753. When do you settle with Harrison & Sons?-I settled with +them last year on 1st October for the fish which I had got in the +previous winter and spring. + +11,754. Do many of the shops in your parish deal with Harrison & +Sons in the same way?-I think none of them do. None of the +other merchants there sell fish to them, so far as I am aware. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, AGNES TAIT, examined. + +11,755. You live in Scalloway?-Yes. + +11,756. Do you live alone?-Yes. + +11,757. Do you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; I +cannot work at anything else. I knit fine shawls and veils. I have +knitted for the last six months to Mr. Moncrieff with his worsted, +and I have been paid in goods. Before that I knitted with my own +worsted, and I sold my work to any merchant in Lerwick, generally +to Mr. Sinclair. I never asked any money from him, because we +knew that it was the rule that we would not get it. I wanted it for +many purposes; but I would not have got it even though I had +asked it. + +11,758. But you could not get on without some money, I +suppose?- No. I sent some shawls and veils south for +money with which to pay my rent. + +11,759. Did you get enough money from them for all that you +wanted?-I was often at a loss for money, and then I had to sell +tea and other things which I had got in Lerwick for my hosiery. I +sold tea and soft goods to any neighbour who was kind enough to +take them. + +11,760. Such as Mrs. Tait?-No, I never sold any to Mrs. Tait. + +11,761. Did you sell your things often in that way?-Yes, very +often. + +11,762. Every month?-I don't think I did it every month. + +11,763. Did you do it two or three times every year?-Yes; oftener +than that. + +11,764. How much goods did you sell in that way?-If I sold a +shawl for about 18s. I would get 18s. worth of goods, and of that a +good deal was tea-perhaps one pound or a pound and a half. + +11,765. Would you sell all that tea?-Yes. + +11,766. And something else besides?-I don't recollect of selling +anything else except the tea. + +11,767. Did you always bring home some tea from Lerwick in +order to sell it?-Yes. + +11,768. And did you always find some of your neighbours ready to +buy it?-Yes; there were always some of them kind enough to buy +it from me. + +11,769. Did you sell it at the full price that it had cost you?-Yes. + +11,770. You did not sell it under its value?-No. + +11,771. You did that very often, because you had no other way of +getting money?-Yes. + +11,772. Do you ever get any lines from the merchants in +Lerwick?-No. + +11,773. Do you always settle for your hosiery articles at once?- +Yes. + +11,774. Would you rather have money than be paid for your work +in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, I would rather have +money; but we knew that we would not get it, and therefore we +never asked it. + +11,775. Do you think you could make a better use of the money +than you do of the goods?-Yes, a great deal better. + +11,776. You think you could turn it to better account?-Yes. + +11,777. Do you think you take more out in soft goods than you +require?-We often take out things which we are not requiring. +We cannot get anything else and therefore we have just to take +out the goods. + +11,778. Can you mention anything which you have taken out when +you were not requiring it?-No. I afterwards sold it; I did not keep +it. + +11,779. What are the goods you have sold?-Cottons. + +11,780. Anything else?-No; but I have not sold any cotton for the +last twelve months. + +11,781. Did you ever sell cotton or any other goods under the price +you paid for them?-No, I generally got the value. I did not sell +these things about Scalloway; I went up occasionally to see some +friends of mine in the west side of Sandsting, and I took the goods +with me. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, WILLIAM HARCUS, examined. + +11,782. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-Yes; I have a small +business here. I have carried on business as a merchant here for +between four and five years. + +11,783. Have you many transactions with the fishermen here?-I +have, in buying and selling groceries and general goods, but not in +curing fish. + +11,784. Do you run any accounts with fishermen?-No; unless +perhaps for a few days, until they come back again to settle. It +could not be said that I do credit trade. It is professedly a cash +trade. + +11,785. Have you any disadvantages in carrying on your trade from +the system of barter which prevails in Shetland?-Perhaps if the +whole trade were done in cash, there might be some advantages in +some respects-that is to say, if there was money always coming +to the fishermen at the end of the season, or when the settlement +takes place. + +11,786. If that were so, you think a merchant carrying on a cash +business would be able to increase his receipts?-I think so. + +11,787. Is it your opinion, from your own experience, that a +ready-money business is limited by the want of money in the +hands of the fishermen and tenants in the district?-I think it is. +I think if there was money there would be more trade done in a +ready-money way than there is. + +11,788. Are you aware that very little money, compared with +the amount of their earnings, passes into the hands of the +fishermen?-I have no means of knowing that exactly; but I +don't see much money, among the fishermen. What money we +get is principally from sailors returning from the south, and, of +course, a little from the fishermen after settling time. + +11,789. Do you find that your business is larger after settling time +than at other times?-Last year it was larger, because there was a +good Faroe fishing. This year I don't think there has been any +difference. + +11,790. Do your books show that there is a larger [Page 289] cash +business done after settling time?-No, my books don't show that. +I don't enter cash transactions in them. + +11,791. How do you know that the business was larger at that +time?-Just by noticing the daily or weekly drawings. + +11,792. Did you keep notes of your weekly drawings?-I did at +one time, but I have been so busy lately, and so much away from +home, that I have not got that attended to. + +11,793. How long is it since you kept notes of your weekly +drawings which would show whether your business increased or +not in the spring?-I think it was only in the first year that I was in +business that I did so; but I can recollect pretty well about the +average amount of my weekly drawings. In a small business like +mine we can depend a good deal upon the memory for that. + +11,794. And so far as your recollection serves you, you think your +weekly drawings were larger at that period?-Yes. When there +has been a good fishing, and the men have something to get at the +settlement our drawings are usually larger after that. + +11,795. Do you think that shows that the men prefer, when they +have money in their hands, to deal with you rather than to deal +with the fish merchant who employs them?-I don't think it does; +at least I could not say that it does, because the fish merchant who +employs them might be having a larger cash return at that time too. + +11,796. At all events you may fairly entertain the opinion that you +would have a better chance among the fishermen if a cash system +were general?-I think so. + +11,797. If, for example, the fishermen were paid by weekly, or +fortnightly, or monthly payments, for their fish delivered during +the summer, do you think you would be more likely to obtain an +additional share of their custom?-If that were possible, I might; +but I don't think it would be possible to pay them at such short +periods, because it would occupy so much time. The fishermen +would have to come in and wait perhaps whole days before they +could be settled with, and I don't think that would be a good plan +for them at all. + +11,798. If a note of the fish is taken at the time when they are +delivered, would there be any difficulty in settling at the same +time?-I never considered that; but I think there would be a +difficulty in settling with the fishermen every day when they +landed their fish. + +11,799. In winter and spring they are settled with every time +they deliver fish?-Yes; but the quantity delivered then is +comparatively small. Sometimes in summer the fishermen are +working ten or twelve miles away from where the curer is, and of +course, to come in and be settled with every week, or even every +month, would be a great hardship. They might lose very good days +when they could be more profitably employed at the fishing. I +think quarterly or half-yearly settlements would be as much as +could be managed. + +11,800. You have not had any experience yourself in settling with +fishermen, either before you began business here or since?-No. I +have a few men fishing lobsters, but they are not worth speaking +about. I think there are only three crews' of them, and I settle +always with them when they bring up their fish; but the trade is so +small that there is no difficulty in settling with them then. + +11,801. How long does that fishing last?-It is only carried on +during the winter; and it was arranged that they should come +fortnightly with the lobsters, and settle fortnightly, when the +weather would permit them. + +11,802. Do you do anything in the oyster fishery?-I did at one +time, and I still do a little, but there are very few to be had. + +11,803. How are they paid for?-In cash when I buy them. + +11,804. Do you know what is the practice of other buyers-I +would rather that they should state that themselves. I think Mr. +Nicholson buys for cash, but I am not certain. He is present. + +11,805. When you settle for your lobsters, where is the payment +made?-In my shop. + +11,806. In that case do the men generally spend part of the cash +there and then?-They sometimes spend part of it. + +11,807. Do they not spend part of it generally?-Yes; but I lay +down the money on the counter, and they take it up. They have +the choice either of spending it or taking it away. + +11,808. Are accounts kept with any of these men?-With one of +them who superintends the bringing home of the oysters, there is +an account kept. + +11,809. How often is that account settled?-Just whenever he +wants a settlement. He always gets money with him to disburse +for current expenses, and he is permitted to take from that +whatever he wants for his own use; and if he requires more money, +then there is a settlement. + +11,810. Do you mean that you settle with him whenever he wants +a new advance?-No. He always has some money of mine in his +hands, and he has authority to use that both in paying the men who +are fishing for me, and for his own use. + +11,811. But when that money is exhausted he comes and gets +a new supply?-He settles for that money, and what he has +taken for his own use is put to his own account, and his own +account is settled whenever he wishes to see how we stand. +That is done frequently; and I have the book here which is +kept with him. [Produces pass-book.] This [showing] is the +cash he gets for the general account, £7, 13s. 4d., and then £10, +and then £3, 17s. 2d. At that time he was in a different trade; he +was collecting shell-fish. Then he buys produce, and the account +is balanced at the end of October, when he has £5 still on hand to +give me. Here [showing] the account balanced again, and he had +£2 still on hand. + +11,812. You keep that pass-book with that man; but not with the +other fishermen whom he employs?-No. They just get their +money. + +11,813. Where are these men employed?-In St. Magnus Bay. + +11,814. That is a long way from here?-Yes. + +11,815. These are not the men that are paid in your shop?-The +men who bring the oysters are paid in the shop, and sometimes one +of these men may come along with the other man to help him to +bring home the lobsters, and then they are all paid in the shop. + +11,816. But not the others who do not come?-No. The man who +has charge of the fishing for me takes the money with him to pay +them when he goes back. + +11,817. I understood you to say that when the men came with +oysters and lobsters to the shop, and were paid, they generally took +away some supplies from the shop?-They generally do but they +are not asked to do it. + +11,818. Do they appear to think it a fair and proper thing that they +should do so?-I think they do. I have heard them remark that +they ought to spend the money where they get it. + +11,819. Is that a common sort of feeling among the men?-Yes, it +is a common feeling in the country. + +11,820. In short, they apologize if they don't spend the money in +the shop where they get it?-Something like that I should not say, +that they apologize, but sometimes they tell me what they want the +money for, and they say they have to take it away. Of course, they +are not asked to leave it. + +11,821. But there seems to be a kind of understanding that they are +to spend part of their earnings in the shop?-The people seem to +have the opinion that they ought to do that. + +11,822. And I suppose the merchant has some feeling of the same +kind also?-I never ask them to spend the money in the shop; but, +of course, we are glad to get what money we can. + +11,823. I suppose they don't require to be asked to spend some of +it?-No. + +11,824. Are you engaged in the hosiery trade at all?-I once +bought a little, just to try the trade, but I gave it up. My experience +of it was that it would not pay. Being the only one about here who +gave [Page 290] meal for the hosiery, it was principally meal that +was taken, and I found no profit on it. + +11,825. Then that would lead you to form the opinion that it would +not pay unless soft goods were taken in return for the hosiery?- +Unless goods were taken on which a heavy profit was got, I did not +see that it could pay me; but I tried the trade for so short a time +that I could hardly say I gave a fair trial, or that I could speak so +well about it as one who had tried it for years. + +11,826. Do you not think it would be a more expedient system if +hosiery goods were paid in cash, according to prices regulated by +the demand, and that the merchants should make a fair profit upon +the hosiery itself?-That is my opinion. I believe that everything +ought to be paid for in cash, at a fair price to allow a profit. + +11,827. Have you had many cases coming under your observation +in which women have been unable to obtain the necessaries of +life without bartering away the goods they have obtained for their +hosiery?-I have known few cases of that kind. + +11,828. Have you been induced to purchase goods from these +women?-No. + +11,829. Have you known parties who have done so?-No. They +have been offered in my shop, but I have never bought any of +them. + +11,830. Have they been frequently offered?- Not very frequently; +but I have no doubt, if I had begun to buy them, they would have +been offered more frequently. + +11,831. Do women generally expect to get the full price for the +goods which they offer?-I just refused to buy them. I never came +to the question of price at all, because if I had begun to buy goods +in that way, my trade would have degenerated entirely into an +agency for that sort of barter. + +11,832. Are you aware whether there are parties in the country +whose principal trade consists in purchasing goods from such +women and selling them again?-I am not aware of any. + +11,833. You don't know whether there are hawkers or pedlars who +live in that way?-I don't know. I think it is only right for me to +say that it takes a long time to settle with Shetland men owing to +them not being able to read accounts, and that may account for the +fact that they settle so seldom. I believe that if crew were to settle +every three months, it might take them a whole day to carry +through that settlement. + +11,834. Is that from defective education in arithmetic?-Yes, from +defective education. + +11,835. Shetland men generally seem a very intelligent and +well-educated class of men for their rank of life?-Some of +them are. + +11,836. Do you think they are further back in arithmetic than in +other branches of education?-I think so. + +11,837. How do you account for that?-I cannot account for it. + +11,838. In what way have you ascertained that fact?-In settling +with the few men that I have had dealings with. + +11,839. Don't you think that if pass-books were kept regularly the +settlement would become a shorter process than it is?-Yes; but +many of them would not be able to read the pass-books, and of +course they would be of little use to them. Still, a great many now +can read them, because the boys are being better educated, and I +think the country is getting ripe for a new system. I think it right +you add that pass-books, as a matter of course, should be given to +every one having accounts. + +11,840. But suppose the parties having accounts don't choose to +bring pass-books with them, and neglect to keep them up, are they +not themselves to blame?-Yes; the merchants cannot help that. + +11,841. Don't you think it would be as easy for the fishermen to +have the price of their fish entered in the fish book at the time they +are delivered, and the calculation of the whole value made at that +time: the amount of each take of fish is entered in the fish book +when it is landed?-I suppose so, but I have no experience of that. + +11,842. Might the price not be entered as easily?-I should think +so; but that will be a question for those who are engaged in the +trade. I can see no reason why it should not be done; but I +understand the custom of the country is to fix the price afterwards +at the end of the season. + +11,843. But the price might be fixed according to the current price +at the end of the season?-I have had no experience on that +matter, and I cannot say.* + +11,844. If you don't drive a credit trade, I suppose you don't keep +any books except a day-book?-I just keep a day-book and ledger, +for the wholesale trade. There are no retail transactions that pass +through my books at all. The ledger contains the names of those I +deal with in the south. + +11,845. Are the prices at which you sell provisions higher or lower +than those at which they are sold in the neighbouring shops?-It +would be impossible for me to say exactly; but I think they are +about the same. + +11,846. What is the retail price of meal just now in your shop?-It +is 141/2d. per peck. + +11,847. And of flour?-There are two kinds, one at 1s. and on +at 13d. Meal is always 1/2d. peck dearer in Scalloway than in +Lerwick, on account of the cartage. + +11,848. Is there no meal brought here by sea?-Very little. + +11,849. Have you many business transactions with the inhabitants +of Burra?-Yes, some. + +11,850. Do some of the men purchase at your shop the supplies +they require for their families?-Yes, occasionally. + +11,851. Do they do so for ready money, or upon credit?-Either +for ready money or for eggs. + +11,852. Do they sell all their eggs to you?-I don't know. I think +they sell to all the grocers in the village. + +11,853. In what way are their eggs paid for?-The eggs are +generally paid for in barter at one price, and [Page 291] in cash +at another price; but, for the last three months, I have bought them +at the barter price for cash. The present price is 9d. per dozen, +whether paid for in goods or cash, but they are very seldom sold +for cash. + +11,854. What is the kind of goods generally taken in exchange for +eggs?-Everything we sell-tea, sugar, meal, bread, and soft +goods. + +11,855. Do you export a number of the eggs you buy?-Yes. They +are sent south by the steamer. + +11,856. Have there been any whales driven in here, while you have +been resident in Scalloway?-There was one shoal of whales +driven into the bay below this place since I came here. They were +sold by auction. Mr. Garriock, of Reawick, managed the sale. +The parties concerned in the capture got two-thirds of the proceeds +of the oil as their share. + +11,857. Are you aware that complaints are made with regard to the +landlord's claim to have one-third of the oil?-Yes; there have +been complaints made. I had a share in the whales that were +driven ashore, and I wrote to the Board of Trade about it, but it +seemed they could do nothing; at least they did not choose to do +anything in the matter. + +11,858. Were the whales of the bottle-nosed kind?-No. They are +known by the name of caain, or driving whales. + +11,859. Did the Board of Trade decline to interfere on the ground +that the Crown had no interest in the kind of whale that was driven +ashore?-Yes; they said the Crown had no interest in that kind of +whales. We thought, as the Government claim the foreshores and +beaches, the proprietors had no right to claim any share of the oil, +because the blubber is never taken above high-water mark Most +of the whales were killed at sea, and dragged ashore, and we +thought the fishermen should have the same right to beach whales +as to beach cod or ling, or anything else under the Act regulating +the fishings. + +11,860. Did you obtain any information at that time, as to the +grounds upon which the landlords' claim for one-third of the +whales was based?-I did not ascertain that they had any claim for +it, other than the custom of the country, in the same way as they +claim right to bind the fishermen to fish for them, and to no other. +The Board of Trade did not say that the landlords had any right to +claim the whales; they advised me to go to law and see; but I did +not think it advisable to incur the expense of raising an action on +my own account. + +11,861. Have you found your trade hampered in any degree by the +fishermen feeling under an obligation to deal for their supplies +with the merchants by whom they are employed?-I have said +already, that if the fishermen were paid oftener, more money +would be circulated, and trade would be more divided; but it +would all depend upon whether the fishermen were in debt or not, +because we could not expect the fish-curers to pay those men who +were in debt to them. + +11,862. Have you found fishermen representing to you that they +would purchase goods at your shop if they were not obliged to go +where they could get credit?-I have occasionally heard such +things here, but not very often. + +11,863. Perhaps you have suspected that oftener than it has been +expressed to you?-Yes. + +11,864. A man does not always speak about his reasons for dealing +with a particular merchant?-I don't think he does; but I don't +think it fair if I pay ready money for such things as I buy, such as +oysters and winkles, that others should not do the same to a greater +extent than they do. I don't mean to say that they should cash for +everything, but I think they should settle oftener. + +11,865. You think the fishermen should be able to have a little +money in their hands at times, instead of having it only once a +year, in January?-I think so. + +11,866. And even then, I suppose, they don't always have to get +money?-I don't think they have. + +11,867. Do you think that, upon the whole, your payments to +fishermen are repaid to you?-Not at once. They may take the +money home and come with it again, but it is not handed over to +me at the time when the men get it. I have paid £40 in one week +for shell-fish, without drawing more than £10. + +11,868. Do your books show that?-No. + +11,869. These were all cash transactions?-Yes. + +11,870. But I suppose you may sometimes have paid £40 out in a +week and drawn £30 of it back?-No. I never drew £30. + +* Mr. Harcus afterwards sent a letter in which he said- + +'Finding that exception has been taken by certain of my neighbours +to a part of my evidence before the Truck Commission, I wish to +say in explanation, that when the question was put whether I +would approve in all cases of daily or weekly settlements, several +difficulties occurred to my mind, and the want of proficiency in +arithmetic among the fishermen was one of them, and not the +only one, as is being attempted to be made to appear. I hope my +words will bear out this idea. If my memory serves me right I gave +as one difficulty the great distance between the fishing-ground +and curer's headquarters; and I was having in consideration the +extra expense that would be incurred if provision were made at +out-stations for daily or weekly settlements, and the probability of +an extra hand being required whose wages would have to come off +the fisherman. + +'With regard to my statements as to the proportion of Shetland +fishermen who would be able to settle quickly by having +pass-books, I was considering that it would be the duty of the men +to divide their own shares, and to make all calculations ready for +entering in their several pass-books, and that where there were +boys forming part of a crew, and having fractional shares, very few +indeed of the men could divide such shares. I think I also stated +that I was speaking of those I had dealt with; but, of course, I +could not be understood to speak of anything further than my +experience went. + +'I was also having in view that should a crew only require a few +minutes to settle, yet if many crews came up at one time, as the +tides and nature of the fishing would necessitate, some of them +would have to wait several hours, which time could not possibly +be spared, as during the busy part of the season the men can only +allow themselves from four to five hours out of the twenty-four for +sleep. Neither do I think that pass-books can expedite settlement +much as some say. They can do little more than save the time +required to head a printed form of account, say three or four +minutes for each crew; but of course, are indispensable for other +purposes. + +'It will be seen from my evidence that the oftener curers settle +with their men the better for my trade; and therefore, wishing to +guard against having my mind influenced by selfish motive, I +stated honestly what objections to daily or weekly settlements +occurred to my mind at the moment. + +'I trust it will be seen from my evidence as to my own practice +that I approve of making settlements as often as practicable, in +order to teach the people self-reliance and provident habits, and +also to give them a chance to lay out their earnings to the best +advantage. + +' I have no wish to disparage this people. On the contrary, I think +they deserve very great praise for being what they are under very +unfavourable circumstances, and if this were the proper place I +would have great pleasure in saying a good deal on this point; but +though their general intelligence is perhaps superior to that of the +same class in any other part of the country, I have not met with +much proficiency in arithmetic among old and middle-aged men +especially; and it is not difficult to see from the evidence the small +amount of their experience in handling accounts, and the want of +inducements to cultivate the art of book-keeping.' + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Rev. NICOL NICOLSON, examined. + +11,871. You are a clergyman of the Independent Church in +Scalloway?-I am. I have been twenty-two years here, first +as missionary, and afterwards as pastor of a church. + +11,872. Are your people mostly engaged in fishing?-Some of +them are. + +11,873. I suppose you are intimately acquainted with the condition +of the fishing population of this district?-It appears to me by this +time that I am not so well acquainted with it as I thought, because I +have been hearing things coming out that I did not understand to +be the case before the evidence was given. + +11,874. Were you aware of the fact that very few fishermen +received a large part of their earnings in money?-I understood +that all of them who were out of debt got money from the +merchants when they wanted it. I was once a fisherman myself, +and that was the way in which I was dealt with. I did not think +that in any of the shops here the men who had cash in the +merchant's hands, and who were in necessity for it would not +have got it. + +11,875. Do you not think it would be better for the fishermen to be +paid for their fish more frequently than once a year?-There are +certain boats that deliver their fish weekly, and certainly it would +be better for the men in them to be paid weekly; but there are a +great many of the fishermen employed in smacks, from which they +do not come ashore weekly, nor monthly. + +11,876. Do you mean that the Faroe fishermen cannot be paid at +short intervals?-I mean that those who fit out smacks and agree +with men to fish on board of them for the season, cannot bring +about a settlement with them until the end of the season. + +11,877. But would it not be expedient for a man who is engaged +in the home fishing, and who comes ashore every two or three +days, to have his money paid to him at shorter intervals than those +at which he now gets it, so that he might use it at his own +discretion?-It has come under my observation that many crews +who were ready to fish had no boat nor lines until they went to a +merchant who would supply them with them, and then they made +an agreement with that merchant to fish for him. They are in debt +before they begin, and how can they be paid until the merchant +sees his boat and lines clear?-Until they are cleared, he cannot +afford to pay the men. + +11,878. But in other trades, merchants frequently have to pay +weekly wages to the men they employ, and take their risk of the +market?-They take their risk of the market as it is; but if a +merchant has due to him the whole value of the boat and lines, he +cannot pay money down to the men and allow them to go away +with it. He must keep it until he gets paid, or else he will be a +poor man. + +11,879. Would it not be within the power of the fishermen to +purchase their own boats and lines?-They should do that, but I +don't find them doing it. I know of only one man here who has +done it. + +11,880. Do you think it is impossible for the ordinary run of +fishermen to make as much money as would pay for their boat and +lines?-Most of the fishermen hereabout can never do it, owing to +the way they live and the small fishings they make. They are not +very fit to go out except in fine weather; and then they have to +maintain themselves on shore in coarse weather. + +11,881. How does the way in which they live prevent [Page 292] +them from being able to purchase boats and lines?-They are poor +men; they have no capital; and they are neither fed nor clothed in +such a way as to enable them to carry on the fishing properly. If +any man will give them credit for a boat and lines they just hang +on with him, and never make money, or catch fish from which +money can be made. I know a number of boats that seem to do +very little all the year round. The crews are mostly old, worn-out +men, and some of them are perhaps not very provident at home. I +never saw them fed and clothed like regular fishermen; and you +cannot expect them to go to sea properly. + +11,882. What do you mean when you say that they are not fed and +clothed like regular fishermen?-I mean like fishermen on the +coast of Scotland, or in any other place. + +11,883. Have you had some experience among fishermen on the +coast of Scotland or elsewhere than here?-Not on the coast of +Scotland, further than that I have gone among them, and spoken +with them, and seen how they get on. I have seen them go off +almost every day in winter, unless when there was a very extra +breeze of wind. + +11,884. Have they better boats in these places?-Yes; they have +good boats, and they are well-clad, well-fed, healthy men; while +there are men going on board the boats here who I believe, these +other men would not take on board with them, owing to their want +of strength. + +11,885. You are not speaking of the ordinary run of Shetland +fishermen just now?-I am speaking of the Scalloway men. I +understand that in some of the islands, such as Burra, there are a +class of very good men; but here there are no men staying ashore, +except young boys and old men. All the rest go into the merchant +service. A few go to Faroe, but only a few. + +11,886. It is among these people who live in Scalloway that your +experience chiefly lies?-Yes; it is to them I refer when I speak of +the people about here. + +11,887. So that when you are speaking about the advantages or +disadvantages of a change, your remarks rather apply to the people +of Scalloway than to the Shetland fishermen in general?-I say +that most of the fishermen with whom I am acquainted in +Scalloway, except one boat's crew, are such men as never do make +earnings. They cannot get their boat and lines except on credit, +and the merchants who give them out on credit require to keep +what little fish they catch until these are paid, while the poor men +are always asking for further advances on which to live. Therefore +the men cannot have any money; and I don't blame the merchants, +because the men still continue indebted to them. + +11,888. Do you entertain that opinion with regard to other +fishermen, strong young men, who are able to make better +fishings than those you are now speaking of?-I believe there +are such men in Burra, and perhaps even in Trondra, but I don't +know any such men in Scalloway who are inclined to go to the +fishing. Strong young men there go elsewhere. + +11,889. Could these strong young men in Burra and Trondra +purchase their own boats?-I think they could. + +11,890. And that you consider would be an advantage to any +fisherman?-Yes, it would be an advantage but I question whether +many of the young men in Burra would confine themselves to boat +fishing. + +11,891. Do you think the system of being paid only once a year has +the effect of producing improvident habits among the men?-I +don't know. I was once a fisherman myself, and paid once a year, +and I liked it well enough, for if I wanted money sooner I got it; +but if I could do without it, I was pleased to get a larger sum at one +time, and have it in reserve. + +11,892. There is no doubt that, to many men, it may be an +advantage to get a large sum paid at once; but, looking at the +generality of the people that you live among, do you not think it +would be better for them to have their money in their hand, paid to +them every fortnight or every month? May they not, under the +present system, run up larger accounts with the merchant who +supplies them than they can afford to pay?-I am not aware that +money is forthcoming at all from the fishing carried on in these +boats. I have already said that I don't think the boats are fished so +as to clear money, and consequently the men cannot have money. +They are generally very poor and in debt. + +11,893. Do you mean that almost all, the men in Scalloway are +so?-All the fishermen that are in the boats, except one boat's +crew that stands on a different footing from the others. + +11,894. Do you ascribe that to the system which prevails here, or +to any fault on the part of the men?-I can scarcely ascribe it to +the fault of the men; I would say it was their misfortune. They are +old and some of them infirm, and they cannot fish like stout, +healthy men. + +11,895. Have many cases come under your observation in +which women who knit have been in distress for want of food in +consequence of the way in which the hosiery is paid for?- I have +not generally heard them blame the hosiery system for it exactly, +but just the want of general employment. + +11,896. I suppose most of the women here knit more or less?- +Yes; I believe the greater part of them do. + +11,897. And I suppose you are aware that knitting is almost +invariably paid for in goods and not in money?-In listening to +the examinations here to-day, I have heard conflicting accounts +about that. One woman said they got no money, and another said +she got as high as 6s. and 8s. at a time. + +11,898. But even that woman admitted that the rule was to pay in +goods, although she got money when she asked for it?-I believe it +is the rule to pay in goods. + +11,899. Have you had any experience as to the effect of that upon +the female portion of the population?-I think most of them that I +am acquainted with act very judiciously notwithstanding. + +11,900. They are able to keep themselves notwithstanding that +they do not get payment for their labour except in goods?-Of +course they do keep themselves; but they are not so well off as +they would require to be. If they could get part of the payment in +cash, it would no doubt be a great advantage to them. + +11,901. Do you think they would make a good use of the money if +they had it?-There may be exceptions, but generally, I think, they +are a provident people. + +11,902. Do you think the women who are paid in goods for their +hosiery sometimes get things which they do not need, simply +because they are asked to take shop goods in payment instead of +money?-I am not personally aware of that. I heard one woman +say to-day that she sometimes had a good deal of things lying on +hand; but I don't know of that being the case from my own +experience. + +11,903. The people have not complained to you with regard to +it?-They have not. Some of them have said to me they would +like to have money, while others have said they were quite well +satisfied with goods. + +11,904. Is there any other statement you can make with regard to +the subject of this inquiry?-I am not aware that there is. I may +say that I am in no way obliged either to the hosiery merchants or +to the fishcurers. My living comes quite from another quarter; but +I must say, when I am asked, that I believe we have honest men in +both departments of business, both as buyers of hosiery and as +curers of fish. I don't think any country will produce men of better +principles, so far as my knowledge goes. + +11,905. Does it follow from that that the system which they work +is a good one?-No; I would not say that. I should like to see a +better system brought in, if it could work; and I believe the +merchants themselves would be glad to see a ready-money system +introduced if it were possible; but the difficulty is to see how it can +be got to act. We have hosiery merchants here, such as Mr. +Harcus, who have tried it, and who have had to give it up, because +they found it would not work. + +[Page 293] + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined. + + +11,906. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-I have been. I retired +from business a year ago. My son, Gideon Nicholson, my +daughter, Mrs. Tait, and another daughter's husband, David +Dalgleish, succeeded me. + +11,907. How long were you in business in Scalloway before you +retired?-About 25 years. + +11,908. Were you engaged in business both as a fishcurer and as a +draper and general merchant?-Yes. + +11,909. How many boats did you generally employ in the haaf +fishing?-About ten or twelve boats for the ling fishing in the +summer time. In some years the numbers differed. + +11,910. Were these boats generally manned from Scalloway and +the district round about?-No, there were very few of them from +Scalloway. There were some from Maywick, parish of Bigton, +about twelve miles south, and some from the island of Havera. + +11,911. Had you a fishing station there?-The fish could not be +cured there, as there was not a beach for that purpose, and they had +all to be brought to Burra to be cured. For the last two or three +years they have been brought to Scalloway, and cured on beaches +here. + +11,912. Were you tacksman of any properties in that district?- +No, I never was tacksman; but the proprietor, Mr. Bruce of +Simbister, held me accountable for the rents of the fishermen +employed by me. He holds us accountable for them yet. It is in +Messrs. Hay's hands just now, because Mr. Bruce does not act for +himself. + +11,913. In what way do you arrange about the rents of the +fishermen whom you employ?-I have seen that when a fisherman +was £10 or £20 in my debt I still considered that I had to pay his +rent for him to the proprietor. I have paid the proprietor from £60 +to £80 a year when the fishermen were perhaps due me £100 or +£200. + +11,914. Was that done under an obligation which had been +undertaken by you to the proprietor?-No; I never undertook +the thing, but I always did it for the poor men. + +11,915. Was there a kind of understanding between you and the +fishermen that you should advance the money for their rent?- +There was not much understanding about it, but I always did it, +and it is done at the present time. + +11,916. Is that done for the accommodation of the proprietor, or +for the accommodation of the men?-It accommodates both +parties. Many of the men could not pay their rent themselves, and +what were they to do if it was not paid for them?-Their corn and +crop would have to be taken from them, and they would have had +to come to me for more meal next summer. Therefore it was +better for me to allow them to keep their crops and to pay their +rents for them. + +11,917. In what way is the payment made? Is it done by you +handing the money to the men with which to go and pay their rent +themselves, or do you put it down against them in their account, +and send the proprietor a cheque for the sum?-Often before the +time when it should be settled I pay it to Mr. Bruce or to Messrs. +Hay. + +11,918. Do you often pay the whole rent of the men in your +employment, to Mr. Bruce, in one sum?-Yes, or rather to Mr. +Bruce's factor. When the men had anything particular to say to +their proprietor they would come along to me for the cash, and +take it to him; but with regard to the body of the men, I never put +them to that trouble. It was some trouble for them to go from +Scalloway to Lerwick, and then to travel home age in. + +11,919. Do you get separate receipts for all the men, and give them +to them at settlement?-Yes. + +11,920. Is the rent generally paid on their account before +settlement?-Very often it is, or about that time. The term for +the payment of their rent is at Martinmas, upon 11th November, +and it is generally same time after that before we commence to +settle with the fishermen. We must know what price we are to +get in the market for the fish before we know what we are to give +them, or how we are to settle with them. + +11,921. What sum did you pay to the proprietor in that way during +the last two or three years you were in business?-I should say that +about £60, or from £60 to £70, would be about the usual thing. + +11,922. Would the amount of each man's rent be about £4 or +£5?-Yes, perhaps some higher, and some a little lower. + +11,923. Then perhaps twelve or fifteen men would have their rents +paid in that way?-Yes. + +11,924. But that would only be a portion of the men you were +employing?-Yes. + +11,925. If you had ten or twelve boats, you would have fifty or +sixty men employed in them?-No. Some of them are small boats +that fish close to the shore, with perhaps three men in them, or two +men and two boys. + +11,926. Then you might employ perhaps thirty men and boys +altogether?-Yes. + +11,927. Would one half of these men not be tenants at all?-Most +of them were tenants of Mr. Bruce. + +11,928. Were they under any obligation to fish for you?-No. + +11,929. Could they have engaged with any other person if they had +liked?-Yes. + +11,930. Have you objected to pay the rent for any one of these men +when he was considerably in your debt?-No. If I paid for one, I +paid for all. I have paid rent for a man who was between £20 and +£30 in my debt. + +11,931. Does the landlord give you any return for these advances +which you make to him?-No. + +11,932. Is it not a considerable advantage to him to have his rent +made secure in that way?-There is no doubt about it. + +11,933. But don't you get anything from him even in the shape of a +favour?-No; I never asked it, and never got it. + +11,934. Have you any fishing station on Mr. Bruce's property?- +No. The fishermen on the island of Havera cure their fish in the +island, and that is on his property, but I have no concern with +anything else. + +11,935. Do they cure their fish themselves, and sell them to +you?-They cure them on the island, and send them to Scalloway, +and I sell them for them. + +11,936. Have they an arrangement peculiar to themselves about +their fish?-No, there is no peculiar arrangement. Their fish have +always been under their own command, and I could not sell them +without their consent, and I have lost considerably by that. + +11,937. In selling their fish do you act as their agent?-Yes. + +11,938. Do you charge a commission for that?-I never had so +much good sense as to ask a commission; I did it for nothing. + +11,939. You sold them for them, and I suppose they took a +quantity of goods from you when they wanted them?-Yes. +They took lines and hooks, and bread and clothes, and such +things as they required. + +11,940. Did they get all their supplies from you?-I think they got +the most part of them from me. + +11,941. How many people live at Havera?-I think there are four +families, but I am not sure. + +11,942. Do the other people on Mr. Bruce's estate who fish for +you, and whose rent you pay, deal entirely in your shop for their +supplies?-I think the most part of them do. + +11,943. Is that one reason why you pay their rents for them?-I +suppose so. + +11,944. Do you find that these men are generally in your debt at +settlement?-Only some of them. There are some of the men who +have always plenty of money to get, but there are others who have +commonly been behind. + +11,945. Are more than one half of them commonly behind?-No. +There are more than one half of them who always have money to +get. + +11,946. Still there are some of them who are usually a good bit +behind?-Yes; but I hope they will get and be able to pay it off. +Some of them are men whose [Page 294] sons are willing now to +pay for their fathers, and it is a great matter to see that. + +11,947. The debts you refer to have been incurred for supplies +of hooks and lines, and meal and other things required for the +family?-Yes; chiefly for meal. Of course, they get hooks and +lines also but they require a great deal of bread and meal. + +11,948. Do those men who fish for you own their own boats, or do +the boats belong to you?-The boats are all their own. + +11,949. Are you not a boat-owner?-Not with these men. + +11,950. Have you some boats here?-Yes; I had too many, and got +very little profit from them. + +11,951. The boats you had at Scalloway were hired out by you?- +Yes; it got the name of hire, but I never received it. The nominal +hire is 5s. per man. If it carries three men it is 15s. and if four +men, £1. That is for three or four months in the year. + +11,952. These are small boats?-Yes. + +11,953. Is that the kind of boat that is commonly in use in +Scalloway?-Yes. + +11,954. Are there none of the six-oared boats in use here?-There +are none in use here just now. Even in summer it is the small +boats that are used here. They fish near the shore and the small +boats are more handy than the big ones. + +11,955. Then there is no haaf fishing from Scalloway?-No. + +11,956. Are all the fish that you cure, the produce of that inshore +fishing?-No; I have vessels that go to Faroe. + +11,957. But you have no deep-sea fishing for ling?-No. I should +not say that I never get the hire, because in some few cases I have +got a little for it. + +11,958. Then is it the case that you must look to the profit you +make from the fish for the only remuneration you get for the use of +these boats?-It would have been better for me if I had bought few +or no fish in Scalloway, because the people here cannot get so +much as will keep them alive. As has already been stated, the men +in Scalloway are old men, who are not able to fish much. + +11,959. How many tons of fish did you sell from that part of your +fishing last year?-I am not able to answer that exactly just now, +but there are commonly from 20 to 25 tons that come from +Dunrossness. + +11,960. And as much from Scalloway?-No; all that are got here +is a mere trifle, and then we buy some in winter and spring from +different quarters. + +11,961. Do you also buy some in summer from other places too?- +A few lots, not much. + +11,962. Do the Burra men come and sell you a few lots in +summer?-As little as possible. + +11,963. Do you not like to buy from them?-I don't like to see +men leaving their masters. My men might do the same. + +11,964. I suppose your men do sell to other people's factors +occasionally?-I don't think there are many men among them +who don't do that. + +11,965. Is it when they want a little ready money that they do +that?-They can get it from me when they ask for it. + +11,966. Perhaps, if a man is a little in your debt, he will not care to +come and ask you for ready money?-There are men who are due +me £5 and £10 and £15, and I just pay him for his fish over the +counter when he brings them. + +11,967. That is for the winter and spring fishing?-Yes. I would +be happy if he could make as much from his fish as would keep +him alive, but the worst of it is that these men cannot do that. + +11,968. When you pay them money over the counter for their fish, +do they generally pay some of it over the counter for supplies?- +Yes; if they can buy articles as cheap from me as from another, +they always do that. I have seldom seen them do anything else; +but if they want a little money for any particular purpose, they can +get it for that purpose. + +11,969. They may need it for rent, and they will perhaps take it +away to pay to their landlord?-That is not very often the case. If +they have a house from another proprietor I very often have to pay +the rent for them. + +11,970. Do you lay out a good deal of money in that way?-Rather +too much. + +11,971. Do you sometimes pay other debts that are due by the men +as well as their rent?-I suppose most of their debts are with me, +except their rents. + +11,972. Therefore most of their money matters are transacted +through you?-I think so. + +11,973. In fact, you are a sort of banker for the place?-I don't +know that; it is very little that I get to bank. + +11,974. When a man is well to do and has a balance to receive, +does he sometimes leave it in your hands?-If they thought I was +ill off for money they would do that. One year I lost about £200 +on the price of ling, and rather than see me ill off for money one +and another of them who had money came and offered it to me. + +11,975. Do you mean that they left what was due to them on their +fishing in your hands?-Yes; and they offered me besides money +which they had laid up in former years, if it could do me any good +and keep me going on. + +11,976. Do you not think the men would be much wiser to take +their own money and spend it as they wanted? Would they not +understand the value of the money better in that way, and take +better care of it?-They take their money at the end of every +season. + +11,977. But in the meantime they have spent perhaps three-fourths +or four-fifths of all their earnings?-Of course they have been +lifting their lines and hooks and everything of that sort, but they +have never wanted money when they asked for it, even although +they had nothing in my hands. Sometimes they asked for it to buy +a cow or some particular thing, and they sometimes got as much +from me as £4 or £5. + +11,978. But you don't give it to them unless they want something +particular, and mention to you what it is?-No. + +11,979. Do you think it is a good system for men to leave all their +affairs in your hands?-I don't know; I did not want them to do so +unless they liked. + +11,980. Would not the merchant require to be a very honest man +when he is so much trusted?-He would indeed. + +11,981. And a man who was disposed to deceive the fishermen +who trusted him would have very ample opportunities to do so?- +He would. + +11,982. I suppose that has been done in a few exceptional cases in +Shetland?-No doubt it has. + +11,983. Do you think a fisherman who lives under that system is +an independent person?-A man who has plenty of money to serve +his purpose is as independent a man, or he should be, as any. + +11,984. Do you think the fishermen have plenty of money to serve +their purposes?-Not in general; but there are a few who have it. + +11,985. Do you think they might all have it?-I don't think so. + +11,986. Is that owing to bad seasons, or owing to a bad system, or +what?-It is sometimes owing to all these things together. + +11,987. I suppose all the men you employ, and some others +besides, keep accounts in your books for the supplies which +they require for their families and for the fishing?-Yes. + +11,988. Each man has a ledger account?-Yes. + +11,989. And although you are out of the business, you are still +intimately acquainted with the way in which it is conducted?- +Yes. + +11,990. Do you think that one half of the men at this settlement +have a balance to get in money?-I think most of the ling +fishermen had, but the cod fishermen were much more in debt. + +11,991. You had not many ling fishermen?-No, only a few boats. + +11,992. It is the Dunrossness men you speak of as the ling +fishermen?-Yes. + +11,993. The Scalloway men are not ling fishermen?-No. I think +there was only one boat that went from Scalloway. + +[Page 295] + +11,994. Is the business still carried on in your name?-No; it is +carried on in the name of Nicholson & Co. + +11,995. Have you any interest in it at all?-No. + +11,996. It is practically the same business, however, which you +carried on?-Yes. + +11,997. When you carried on business, were you in the practice of +buying hosiery?-Very little. I never took it at all, except when +the poor people were starving and in want of bread. They +sometimes came to me and said they wanted bread, and could not +get it in Lerwick, and I gave it to them. + +11,998. Have you taken the goods they have got for their hosiery in +Lerwick and given them provisions instead?-Not very often, but I +have done that out of compassion. + +11,999. Have you sometimes given them money in that way?-I +would not have seen them at a loss for a shilling if they wanted it +for any particular purpose. + +12,000. Have you sometimes taken their lines from them which +they got from the Lerwick merchants?-No; I don't remember +doing that. + +12,001. Have you been asked to do that sometimes?-I don't think +so. + +12,002. Have you not been asked to give them provisions for +lines?-No. + +12,003 Was it mostly cotton and soft goods or tea that you took +from them?-It was cotton and soft goods, not tea. They had a +chance of getting a little meal and potatoes in country places for +their tea, and they did not require to come to me with it. + +12,004. What kind of price did you allow them for these things?- +I allowed them the same price as I sold such articles at in my own +shop; but they had paid a higher price for them in Lerwick. When +they brought the goods to me, I saw they were not equal to mine at +the same price. + +12,005. So that you generally buy these cottons at a lower price +than they have been charged at in Lerwick, but at the same price +that you were in the habit of selling them for here?-Yes. + +12,006. The knitters therefore would be losers nominally by the +bargain?-Yes; but it was not much that they brought to me in that +way-it was hardly worth mentioning. + +12,007. What would be the difference in price on a yard of +cotton?-Perhaps 1d. + +12,008. Did you find that there was always that difference?-I +don't exactly remember; but I remember sometimes looking at +the articles, and seeing that they were inferior to mine at the same +price. That was very easily seen. + +12,009. Do the women sometimes object to give you the goods at a +lower price than they had paid for them?-No. It was through +necessity they came to me with them, and they always felt very +grateful that they could get bread in exchange. + +12,010. Has that system gone on at times until now?-Yes, at +times. + +12,011. You have some vessels employed in the Faroe fishing?- +Yes, there are two. + +12,012. Are these still in your hands, or have you handed them +over to the company?-I have handed them over to the company, +as agents. + +12,013. But they are still your property?-Yes; at least they are +partly mine. There are some other people who have shares in +them. + +12,014. Do the men who are employed in these Faroe vessels +generally belong to Scalloway and the neighbourhood?-No; +only a few of them. The others come from different parts of the +country; some from as far west as Sandness, and others from as far +north as Delting, and so on. + +12,015. Have these men accounts opened in your shop for their +outfits?-Yes. + +12,016. And also for supplies to their families?-The young men +don't require supplies. + +12,017. But if there are any of them married men, they will have +accounts, and their families get supplies from the company's shop +during their absence?-Yes. + +12,018. Then there is a settlement with them at the end of the +season?-Yes. As soon as we can know what the fish are to bring +in the market there is settlement made. + +12,019. Have you a written agreement with these men?-Yes; it is +written on stamped paper and each man signs it. + +12,020. Have you made your agreements for 1872?-They are +written and are being filled up now. + + +Scalloway, January 22, 1872, DAVID DALGLEISH, examined. + +12,021. You are now a partner of the firm of Nicholson & Co., +Scalloway?-I am. + +12,022. You have been present and heard the evidence of Mr. +Charles Nicholson?-Yes. + +12,023. Have you anything to add to it, or anything additional to +suggest?-No. He has had long experience in the business, and I +have had very little. I have only been in it twelve months, since +Mr. Nicholson retired. + +12,024. You have been shown certain returns with regard both to +the home and Faroe fishing, which you have been asked to fill up +and return to me. You will do so at your earliest convenience, +with the assistance of Mr. Nicholson if necessary?-Yes. + +12,025. I see a number of fishermen present; if there are any of +them who wish to make any statement to me I shall be glad to hear +them. [No answer.] If no one wishes to give any further evidence, +I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice. + +<Adjourned>. + +LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 1872 + +<Present>-Mr Guthrie. + +GEORGE GEORGESON, examined. + + +12,026. You are a merchant at Bayhall, in the parish of Walls?-I +am. + +12,027. How long have you been in business there?-I have been +in business in Walls for about twenty-seven years. My place of +business is in the village in the centre of the parish. + +12,028. Are your customers principally of the class of fishermen +and tenants?-They are mostly fishermen and farmers. The +greater part of my business is in ready money transactions. + +12,029. Are there some farmers there who do not go to the +fishing?-There are some small crofters, but they all go to the +fishing. These parties are not confined to me in the business +they do. They can go where they choose. I supply them, and +they pay me once a year. + +12,030. Are you engaged in the fish-curing business yourself to +any extent?-I do not cure fish now. At one time, about twenty or +twenty-five years ago, I cured fish, and had some small vessels, but +I don't do anything in that way now at all. + +12,031. You say your transactions are mostly for ready money?- +Yes, mostly. + +[Page 296] + +12,032. But I suppose you have some accounts when you have a +customer that you can trust?-Yes. + +12,033. And with him, as you said, you settle every year?-Yes. + +12,034. Are there many of these accounts in your business?- +There may be some hundreds of them; I cannot say how many. + +12,035. Does not every one of your customers open an account in +that way?-Not every one; perhaps not above one-third of them. + +12,036. You have an annual settlement with them?-When we +get an annual settlement, we consider that to be very good. +Sometimes it does not come up to that; but we would like it every +three months if possible. + +12,037. Are many of your transactions settled by means of +barter?-Not many. + +12,038. In what way is that system of barter carried on with you? +Is it by the purchase of eggs and other produce?-Yes; eggs are +looked upon as money. We make no difference upon the price of +our goods whether they are paid for in eggs or money. With regard +to hosiery, our trade is a mere nothing. I think would cover all that +I buy in the year. + +12,039. Do you pay for hosiery in cash at all?-No. + +12,040. I suppose the system that prevails with you is very much +the same as that which exists in Lerwick?-It is not the same as in +that town at all. The difference is, that we do not manufacture +goods to order. We merely buy them when they are offered to us, +if they please us. I don't think there is any other difference. + +12,041. Is the price you fix for the hosiery generally such as to +allow you a profit upon the sale of it?-It is not; sometimes we +really pay more for it than we get. + +12,042. But do you sometimes look for a profit upon it?-If we +look for a profit we don't get it out of the hosiery. If we have a +profit, it must be upon the goods that are given in exchange for it, +because we often sell hosiery below its value, according to its +value here. + +12,043. But I suppose you sell it below its real value only in +consequence of some change in the market, or some +miscalculation?-Perhaps that is the case; but, in point of fact, +we don't buy hosiery as a trade. We are forced to buy it. We +don't care for that trade at all, because we always lose by it. + +12,044. In fixing the price to be given for the hosiery goods, don't +you endeavour to make it at such a figure as will at least keep you +safe, and possibly allow you a small profit on the hosiery itself?-I +cannot say that we do. We are forced to take the hosiery as a +matter of business. We don't deal in that at all, so to speak. + +12,045. But don't you endeavour to fix the price at such a figure as +would allow you a profit?-Of course we do, so far as we can; but +in many cases we sell the hosiery goods below what we paid for +them. + +12,046. Do you sell them in Lerwick, or send them south?-We +send them to Scotland. We don't sell them in Lerwick at all. + +12,047. In what other departments of your business does a barter +system prevail?-I may say that, except in eggs and hosiery, our +trade is principally for cash and we deal in barter for eggs because +we look upon them as being the same as money. + +12,048. Do you give the full price for eggs?-Yes. + +12,049. Do you pay for them principally in tea?-In anything the +people want. It is all the same to us. If they want cash, and we +pay a few shillings in cash, then we pay a halfpenny less per dozen +for the eggs; but that is all the difference we make otherwise we +treat them the same as cash. + +12,050. Do you purchase a considerable quantity of eggs in that +way?-I cannot state the amount exactly. + +12,051. Do you send a box south by every steamer?-Yes, and +sometimes more than that in the season. Perhaps we send a couple +of boxes in the season when they are being brought in. + +12,052. Do you send 10 or 20 dozen?-More than that. We can +put, perhaps, from 70 to 100 dozen in a box, and we may have two +such boxes a week in the season. + +12,053. And these, as a rule, are all paid for in goods?-Yes. + +12,054. At what time of the year do you generally get your +accounts settled?-The fishermen settle their accounts generally +about November or December. + +12,055. Is that after having settled with the fishcurers?-Yes. I +supply the men with what they want through the season until that +time, and then they settle. Most of the men who deal with me cure +their own fish, and sell them the best way they can. + +12,056. Is it a common thing in your district for the fishermen to +cure their own fish?-Yes; they have liberty to do that. + +12,057. To whom are the sales of these fish made?-They sell +them anywhere they choose. Sometimes they send them south, but +principally they sell them to Garriock & Co. The men are rather +confined in that way. They don't have exactly their free will to +sell them, unless merely a little. + +12,058. Do you mean that they have not their free will to sell their +fish where they like?-They have that way; but where a proprietor +is dealing in fish, the men are generally expected to sell to him. + +12,059. Are Messrs. Garriock & Co. factors for some of the +proprietors there?-Yes. They are factors for the estate of Dr. +Scott of Melby. + +12,060. Do the men look upon themselves as being bound?-They +are not really bound. They have a little liberty. + +12,061. But they think they ought to sell their fish to Garriock & +Co. rather than to another?-Yes, that is what is understood, but +they are not really bound. + +12,062. In what way have you observed that feeling among the +men, that they ought to sell to Garriock & Co.? Do they +sometimes speak of it to you?-If Garriock & Co. offered them +the same price as other merchants, they consider they ought to give +them the preference; that is the only way in which I have seen it. + +12,063. Would they sell to Garriock & Co. if they were offered a +less price?-I don't think they would. + +12,064. They would be independent enough not to agree to that?- +I think so. But there is a confusion there. I could not enter into +explanations upon that point fully. + +12,065. Why?-Because I don't think it is necessary. + +12,066. But that is just the very point I want to know about. What +have you to say with regard to it?-I know that sometimes, if I +were offering the same price as Garriock & Co., I would not get +the fish from the men. + +12,067. Have you tried that recently?-I have. + +12,068. Were you willing to resume the business of buying fish?- +Certainly. + +12,069. But the competition of Garriock & Co. was too much for +you?-Not the competition, because I offered the same price, and +perhaps even more, and could not get them. + +12,070. Do you mean that Garriock & Co. had such an advantage +over you, from their position as factors and proprietors in the +district, that you could not venture to compete with them?-Yes, I +ventured, and I could not get the fish. + +12,071. Was that the reason why you gave up the fish-buying +originally?-No, that was not the reason. I had some small +vessels, and they were unsuccessful, and I just dropped out from +the business. + +12,072. But you think that the buying of the fish from the +fishermen might be more remunerative lately than it was +before?-I could not say about that; but the fishermen had the +liberty to cure their own fish if they had liked, and then they +sold them dry. + +12,073. Was it dry fish that you proposed to purchase?-Yes. It +was dry fish that I made the offer to buy, but we would not get +them even if we had given the same price as Garriock & Co., or +more. + +12,074. How long is it since you offered to buy the dry fish?- +Perhaps 4 or 5 years ago. + +12,075. In what way did you make your intention known: did you +offer to certain fishermen at that time [Page 297] to take their +fish?-Yes. I have sometimes offered them to buy their fish, but I +never could get them to sell them to me. + +12,075. [sic] Do you remember any particular men to whom you +made that offer?-I could not mention any particular man; but I +have offered to several crews to buy their fish, and they would not +sell them. + +12,076. Do you remember what skippers you offered to?-If it is +necessary to give names, I would rather do so in private. [Hands in +the name of one skipper and crew.] + +12,077. Do you remember any others?-I might mention several, +but I don't think it is necessary. + +12,078. What answers did they give to your offer?-I sometimes +offered the currency, or above the currency, but that did not +matter: I could not get their fish. + +12,079. Did they decline to entertain your offer?-Yes. + +12,080. What did they say was their reason?-They considered +themselves as a sort of tied down to sell to one; but I know they +were not tied down, and that they could have sold their fish to any +one they chose. + +12,081. But they did say to you that they were tied down?-They +did. + +12,082. Was it through a fear of disobliging the factor that they +refused to sell their fish?-I suppose so. Perhaps they thought that +if they required a favour again, they might not get it so easily if +they made a change. + +12,083. If the favour they expected was in the way of an advance, +would they not have got that from you?-Yes, at any time, either +in money or in goods. + +12,084. What other favour could they expect from the factor?- +From the fact of Messrs. Garriock & Co. being factors, they had +more power than I had with regard to the men. + +12,085. Did the men express any fear of being turned out of their +holdings?-They did not. + +12,086. But that may have been in their minds?-Perhaps it might. + +12,087. Did you ever hear of any influence being used by Garriock +& Co. to secure the fish of these men or of other men?-I cannot +say that they used any undue influence; but, of course, it was an +understood thing that they had the first chance, and the only +chance of them. Where Messrs. Garriock cure the fish, of course +they have the fish to themselves; but where they do not cure them, +it is considered that they shall have the first chance of buying the +fish. + +12,088. Where they cure, of course, there is an engagement with +the men at the beginning of the season?-No. That was the case +about 30 years ago but it is not so now. + +12,089. But in the ling fishing the crews are all engaged in the +beginning of the season?-Yes; but there is no price fixed at the +beginning of the season. About 30 years ago that was the case and +there was some more competition. + +12,090. Was it the case 30 years ago that the price was fixed at +the beginning of the season?-Yes, there was a price fixed, and +sometimes agreements were written on paper for the ling fishing, +but that practice fell away. Sometimes the fishermen got above +the real value of the fish under that system. + +12,091. Do you know whether that system existed only in your part +of the island?-No, it existed all over Shetland more or less unless +where the factors had control over the fishermen. At that time +every man who had his freedom could sell his fish to the best +bidder. + +12,092. But he can do so still, only the price is now fixed +according to the current rate at the end of the season?-He +cannot do so exactly in every place in Shetland. The price is +not understood to be known until the fish are sold, which, I think, +makes the fishermen scarcely so persevering in fishing as they +were when they did know the price. I think when the price was +fixed at the beginning of the season, they persevered even more +than they do now. + +12,093. Was that system given up before you ceased to be in the +business?-No, it continued after that. The thing which made the +price to be fixed at the beginning was, that other buyers than the +native buyers came into the market, and there was more +competition. + +12,094. Was there much more competition at that time than there +is now?-In buying fish green there was more competition, but +now the competition is very little. + +12,095. How do you account for that?-Where factors have the +power, it is understood that the men must fish either to the factor +or the proprietor. + +12,096. Do you think the factors have more power now than they +had in those times?-I rather think they have in some cases. + +12,097. In those times was it not the rule that the fishermen were +always bound to deliver the fish to the proprietor, or to some one +appointed by him?-It was. + +12,098. So that, in that case, there could not be competition?- +There were several people who had the chance of buying the fish +at that time; but, of course, they could not get their summer fish. +They might get fish during the spring season in small quantities, +but that was all. + +12,099. I thought you were speaking with reference to the summer +fishing, when you said that in those times there was a great deal of +competition, and that the price was fixed at the beginning of the +season?-Yes; that was the case about thirty years ago but within +the last twenty years it has fallen away. + +12,100. But even at the time you speak of, were not the fishermen +very frequently bound to deliver their fish to the proprietors or +their factors, or tacksmen?-They were bound in some places, but +not so much in our part of the country as elsewhere. + +12,101. The men were not so much bound in the district that +you speak of when the price was fixed at the beginning of the +season?-The price was fixed in many cases, but not in all. + +12,102. Then the fish in those times were bought from the +fishermen green?-Yes. + +12,103. And it was the price for green fish that was so fixed?- +Yes. The proprietor never fixed the price. It would only be fixed +by a buyer or it merchant. + +12,104. Do you think it would be advantageous to return to that +practice of fixing the price at the beginning of the season for green +fish?-Where fish are bought green, I think it would. + +12,105. Would it not be better for all parties if the fish were +always bought green, and cured by a professional curer?-I don't +think it would. There are some of the fishermen who can cure the +fish as well as any professional curer. + +12,106. Are the fishermen in your neighbourhood generally +supplied with vats and other implements for curing fish?-Most +of them who cure for themselves have implements of their own. +They only require their supplies, such as lines, and salt, and food +from the merchant. + +12,107. I suppose these independent fishermen who cure their own +fish, frequently take their lines and salt and materials for curing +from you?-They get them anywhere they choose. They have +much more liberty in that way in our parish than, I think, they have +in any part of Shetland. + +12,108. Would you say that curing by the men themselves is +practised to it greater extent in your parish than anywhere else in +Shetland?-Much more. Since the men began to cure their own +fish they have got on well, and they have got much out of debt, +and become more independent. + +12,109. When did they begin to cure their fish?-It is about fifteen +or sixteen years since it came to be practised to any extent; but +there are it good many of them who do not cure their own fish yet. +I should say there are about one half of them who sell their fish +green. + +12,110. Do those who sell their fish green engage at the beginning +of the season with Garriock & Co.?-They sell their fish to them. +They do not have any price stated at the beginning, but are settled +with according to the current price at the end of the season. + +12,111. Do you find that the men who are so engaged to sell their +fish according to the current price at the end of the season, are less +frequent customers at your [Page 298] shop than those who cure +their own fish?-Yes; that must be a consequence. + +12,112. Why?-Because it is understood that their supplies must +come from the place where their goods are going. They are a sort +of bound; they are not independent; but if they were curing for +themselves, then they would have their freedom to go anywhere +they chose. + +12,113. Do you mean that the men who are paid according to the +current price at the end of the season want to get their supplies on +credit?-Of course they must get their supplies on credit at the +place where they are giving the proceeds of their work. + +12,114. Is there any other reason why they deal with the fish-curer +for their supplies? Does a man who has money in his hand go to +the fish-curer by preference for his supplies, as well as a man who +has not?-Some men would go there even although they had the +money, and get an advance on credit. + +12,115. Do the men think it an advantage to get their supplies on +credit?-Some men do, even although they paid a higher price for +them. + +12,116. And they might at the same time have money in the +bank?-Yes. + +12,117. Do you think that is a common notion among the men?- +No, I don't think it is a common notion. + +12,118. Are the men who act in that way men to whom you would +yourself give credit?-Yes. I have sometimes given them credit +for their supplies, such as salt and lines, and anything they wanted. + +12,119. Would you consider yourself safe in giving them credit, +even if they were engaged to deliver their green fish to Messrs. +Garriock & Co.?-No. I would not like to deal with the men who +sell their green fish, because I would run the risk of not getting my +money from them. + +12,120. But you say the men will take advances from the curer +during the summer, even although they are quite able to pay for +what they are getting?-Some men will do so from their natural +disposition; but, as a rule, if the skipper goes to a certain place for +his supplies, it is considered that his men must go there too. + +12,121. How is that?-The skipper, of course, has some control +over his crew on shore as well as at sea. + +12,122. Do you think the skipper sometimes advises or persuades +his men to go to a particular shop?-He might; I cannot say that he +would not, but that is not known to me. + +12,123. Do you suppose there is any understanding that it is part of +the skipper's duty to guide his men to the right shop?-I don't +think the skipper is tempted in any way to do that. I don't know +that he derives any benefit from it. There may be a premium given +to a skipper for being the best fisher; but I don't think the skippers +are tampered with to control their crews as to the shops where they +are to deal. + +12,124. Who has the appointment of the skipper?-The crew may +choose a man for themselves. + +12,125. Have you noticed, as a rule, that the skippers deal at the +fish merchant's shop more commonly than the men?-No. I think +there is no difference in that way, so far as I have seen. + +12,126. Then the only reason you can suggest for men who sell +their green fish dealing at the shop of the curer, is because there is +a sort of understanding among them that they shall take their +supplies there?-Yes. In fact, they would not get them anywhere +else because they could not get the money to pay for them. The +man who buys the fish has the first chance of the men's money; +while we who don't buy the fish have only a second or a third +chance of being paid. We would not care to supply men in that +way, because we don't consider ourselves safe. + +12,127. But in giving supplies to the men who cure their own fish, +you think you have some security?-Certainly. + +12,128. What is that security?-The men are more independent, +and if they sell their fish south, they are sure to get their money at +the time. + +12,129. But you told me that these men are under some kind of +obligation to sell their fish to Garriock & Co.?-There is some +understanding of that kind, but they are not bound. + +12,130. They always give them the preference?-Yes. + +12,131. And you have been unable to buy their fish from them?- +Yes. Even if I were to offer a somewhat higher price, I know that I +would not get them. + +12,132. If that is the state of matters with them, then you have not +much more security for your advances in their case than in the case +of the other men?-I have security. There is no fear for them. + +12,133. May they not be taking supplies all the season from the +merchant's shop?-We have a good chance of knowing where +they get their supplies; and men like that, who are independent, are +not likely to run away with the money when they get paid for their +fish. They are safe enough to pay their accounts. + +12,134. Then your reliance is very much on the character of the +men themselves?-Certainly. + +12,135. Do you find that the men who cure their own fish are of a +more reliable character, and more to be depended upon, than the +others?-Generally they are, and they are more persevering. + +12,136. I suppose Messrs. Garriock & Co. know pretty well what +men deal at your shop, and what men deal at their own?-I think +they do. + +12,137. Have you ever obtained from them, or through them, +payment of any accounts that have been run up by men at your +shop?-No. I would not like to apply to them for that. I think +they would rather pay the money to the men themselves. + +12,138. Do the men who deal with you upon accounts generally +keep pass-books?-Some of them do. + +12,139. Do you find any irregularity or difficulty in settling their +accounts, in consequence of the want of pass-books?-I find +none; but, of course, if a man understands accounts, and keeps a +pass-book, I find it more agreeable to settle with him. The more +ignorant a man is, the more trouble you have in settling with him. + +12,140. Are there any other buyers of dried fish in that district than +Garriock & Co.?-There is no other person who buys them in +large quantities. + +12,141. There may be small buyers, but I suppose they don't have +much chance in the circumstances you have already described?- +No; they don't have a chance. + +12,142. How do these small buyers get any fish all?-There are +very few who buy dried fish, and who have the chance of getting +much. They might get few tons in some years, but not as a regular +thing. + +12,143. Is there any public-house in the parish of Walls?-No. + +12,144. Or any one who has a grocer's licence?-No, there has not +been one for some years. + +12,145. You don't hold a grocer's licence for the sale of spirits?- +No. + +12,146. Where do people in that parish get their supplies of +liquor?-There are two licensed houses in the next parish of +Sandsting-one at Tresta, and one the Bridge of Walls, on the +Sandsting side. + +12,147. Have the people to go there for all their supplies of that +kind?-Yes. + +12,148. I believe they are a very temperate people?-I think they +are. + +12,149. Have you ever been asked to purchase second-hand goods +in small quantities by your neighbours, by people coming from a +distance?-No. + +12,150. Have you not been asked to buy small packet of tea across +the counter?-Never. + +12,151. Do you know whether the people in your district +sometimes get their supplies of tea from those who have got +the tea in exchange for hosiery in Lerwick?-No; there is no +practice of that kind among us. + +12,152. If it happens, it will be an exceptional thing so far as you +know?-I never knew any case of the kind. + +12,153. When you were engaged in the fish business yourself, +were you ever asked to advance the rent of any fisherman from +whom you had bought fish?-I might sometimes advance money +to a fisherman to help [Page 299] him to pay his rent, but I cannot +say that I was ever pressed either by a factor or a landlord on that +point. + +12,154. When you gave that advance, it was given directly to the +fisherman?-Yes, and voluntarily. + +12,155. Do you ever make money advances now for that purpose, +or for any other purpose, to your customers who have accounts +with you?-I have not done so within the last two or three years; +in fact, most of the men don't need it; they can get on without it. + +12,156. The accounts incurred to you, and which are settled for at +the end of the year, are paid in cash, I suppose, for the most +part?-Yes, in cash. + +12,157. The only things you get in part payment, and which are +entered on the other side of the account, are eggs and sometimes +butter?-There is not much butter. The greater part of my trade is +done in cash. + +12,158. But eggs and hosiery may sometimes be entered in the +account?-Not much hosiery. I don't do much in that way. + +12,159. You said it might amount to £50, but the transactions, I +suppose, are settled at the time?-Yes. In some years I do not do +the half of that, but would cover my transactions in that way in any +year. I remember some years ago buying three or four times as +much, but now the knitters all go to Lerwick with their work. + +12,160. What hosiery you do buy is all settled for at the time?- +Yes, it is paid right off there and then. The articles are offered to +us, and if we are satisfied with the quality and the price we take +them, the same as in any other money transaction. + +12,161. Do the accounts which you settle at November or +December generally amount to some pounds apiece?-Yes; +with those fishermen to whom we have advanced. + +12,162. Are these accounts generally paid in cash which the men +have got from Messrs. Garriock & Co. for the sale of their fish to +them?-Yes. + +12,163. I suppose you take good care to bring as many of your +accounts as possible to settlement immediately after the settling +time with Garriock & Co.?-Yes; that is our usual practice. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN TWATT, examined. + +12,164. You are a merchant at Voe, in the parish of Walls?-I am. + +12,165. How far is that from Bayhall?-About five minutes' walk. + +12,166. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Georgeson?-I have. + +12,167. Is your business much of the same description as his?- +It is exactly the same. There is no difference between them +whatever. + +12,168. It is conducted with the same class of customers?- +Exactly. + +12,169. Are your settlements made at the same season?-Yes. + +12,170. Have you ever been in the fish-curing business yourself?- +Yes. For the last two years I have done little in the winter season. +I get no fish in summer. + +12,171. Do you buy the fish green?-Yes; in winter. + +12,172. Are you ready to buy them cured if you could get them?- +Yes. I have often offered for fish, but I never could get them. I +have made the offer publicly to all the boats. + +12,173. In what way did you intimate that offer publicly?-I just +said to the men that I would buy their fish, and give as high a price +for them as another. I have said that if I did not give them 10s. +more, I would not give them 10s. less; but I could not get them. + +12,174. What did they say?-They said nothing, but they never +gave me the fish. + +12,175. Did you mean by the offer you made to them that you +would give them a price fixed at the beginning of the season?- +No; I could not fix a price then. I meant that I would give them +as much as any other fish-buyer who was in the trade. + +12,176. Did you mean that you would give them that price at the +end of the season when they delivered their cured fish?-yes. + +12,177. Did you make a special offer to any particular crews?-I +have said to some of the men to tell their skippers what I had +offered. The skipper was not in at the time, but I told one of the +men that I would give him 10s. more than any other one if he +would give me his fish. + +12,178. Have you reason to believe that the man carried your +message to the skipper?-Yes; I know he did carry it. + +12,179. Did you get any answer to it?-No. + +12,180. Then how did you know that the man had carried your +message to the skipper?-Because I asked the skipper afterwards +about it; and he said he had been engaged at the beginning of the +season to deliver his fish to another party. + +12,181. Were these fish to be cured by himself?-Yes. + +12,182. Are contracts made so early as that with men who cure +their own fish?-In some cases they are. + +12,183. Was the other party in this case Messrs. Garriock & +Co.?-I don't think it was. I would rather mention the name +privately. [Hands in the name of a fish-curing firm.] + +12,184. Are these gentlemen you have named extensive purchasers +of cured fish in your district?-I believe they would buy all they +could get. + +12,185. Perhaps they have the same difficulty which you +experience in buying fish?-I suppose they have. + +12,186. Do you carry on any business with men who are engaged +to fish in the ling fishing for Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-Yes. I +supply the crews with what they require for the fishing, such as +lines, and hooks, and tar. + +12,187. Are they not expected to take their supplies from the shop +of the merchant with whom they engage?-Sometimes it is much +handier for them to get them from me than to go to Reawick for +them; and when I know the crew will pay me, I supply them to +them. + +12,188. Your shop is at a great distance from Reawick, or any of +the larger fishing stations?-Yes. + +12,189. Do you make these supplies to the men to a large +extent?-No, not to a large extent; only to a few boats. It is +only to the crews that I make these supplies, because the +company accounts are paid first at the time of settlement, and +I look to the skipper to see that I am paid. + +12,190. Then a company account of that kind is a safer thing than +an account with one of the men?-Yes. + +12,191. Do the fishermen themselves, as individuals, get supplies +from you on credit while they are engaged in the ling fishing?- +Yes. + +12,192. Do they not go more frequently to Reawick, or to Messrs. +Garriock & Co.'s other stores, for supplies?-Yes. There are +certain parties that I won't give them to. + +12,193. Do you furnish the principal part of the supplies to those +men in your neighbourhood who fish for Garriock & Co.?-No. +Garriock & Co. do that themselves. It is only when they cannot +get over to Garriock a Co.'s stores, or when Garriock & Co. might +be out of any article they want, or something like that, that they +come to me. They only come to me for what they want when they +cannot do better. + +12,194. Is it the case that some of them come to you for supplies +because Reawick is so far away?-Sometimes that is the case in +the busy season. When the fishing is going on they are glad to go +to the nearest place, and get a few lines or hooks, or what they +want but when they do go to Reawick they take as much from +there as possible. + +12,195. Are they expected to do so?-I rather think they are. + +12,196. Do you understand that from the men themselves, or is it +merely your own inference from the way in which they act?-It is +my own opinion. + +[Page 300] + +12,197. Have you heard anything from the men which has +confirmed that opinion?-No, I could not say that I have. + +12,198. Do you find that the connection of the fishermen with a +large company of that kind, which buys their fish, and which acts +as factor upon the estates where the fishermen live, interferes with +the extension of your own business?-I cannot say that it does. + +12,199. Have you not told me already that you have not been able +to buy fish from the men, although you wanted to do so?-Yes; it +interferes with me in that way, so that I cannot get the fish. + +12,200. But you don't suppose the men would deal at your shop, in +preference to the shop of the merchant who employs them, even +although they could do so?-If they were fishing to me, I believe +they would deal with me the same as with any other one. I cannot +quite agree with what Mr. Georgeson said about that. I think there +is a little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to +the shop. I think it is an understood thing between the skipper and +the fishbuyer, that he (the skipper) is to get something extra. + +12,201. Does not the skipper usually get a fee?-No; he is +generally supposed to get the same as the men, but I rather +think he gets a little more. + +12,202. You say that that serves as a bribe: for what purpose?-I +leave that to you. + +12,203. Do you suppose it has the effect of making him influence +the men to take their supplies from the merchant's shop?-I leave +that to you to judge. + +12,204. Do you suppose that the skipper, in general, does guide his +men in that direction?-I rather think he does in some cases. + +12,205. Have you known any special instance that you could point +to, where that was done?-There was one boat's crew with whom +I was settling for a small company account. I asked them why they +did not give me their fish as we were next-door neighbours, or +something like that; and the men all got up against the skipper, and +said they were quite willing to give me their fish, only that the +skipper had gone away and made an agreement for them before. + +12,206. That was for the sale of their fish?-Yes, for the sale of +the dry fish. I would have bought them at the same price as +Garriock & Co, or any other one. + +12,207. But that was not a case in which the men were induced to +go for supplies to the fish-curer?-They did not require to go there +for their supplies unless they had liked, because they could have +got their supplies from me if they had said they would give me +their fish at the end of the season. If they had done that I was +willing to supply them with money, or meal, or anything they +wanted. + +12,208. These were men who were curing their own fish?-Yes. + +12,209. But have you known any cases in which men who were +engaged to fish during the whole season, and to deliver their fish +green to Garriock & Co., were induced by the skipper to go to +Reawick for their supplies?-I cannot say that I have. + +12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to +Reawick for supplies although it is much farther away?-Yes. + +12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient. +They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next +door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price +as they can at Reawick. + +12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is +about 10 or 12 miles. + +12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are +these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are +brought by boats and sometimes round by the rocks. + +12,214. When a crew cure their own fish, is it the rule that the sale +must be of the whole catch of the boat, or can each man sell his +fish separately?-No, they must all be sold together; and they +generally go to the place where the skipper or the majority of the +men want them to go. + +12,215. Do you think the skipper has a considerable influence in +that matter?-I think he has. + +12,216. Of course, where the men are fishing independently, and +curing their own fish, there is no arrangement with the merchant +for the skipper's fee?-No; that is an understood thing between +the skipper and the fish-buyer, and I don't think the men know +anything at all about it. There is no fee at the ling fishing, and the +men can go to whom they please. They are different there from +what they are in the Faroe fishing. + +12,217. Do you buy any hosiery?-I buy it little, and I pay for it in +the same way which Mr. Georgeson explained. It is all done by +barter. + +12,218. Do you also pay for eggs and butter by goods?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined. + +12,219. You are a merchant at Bridge of Walls, in Sandsting?-I +am. + +12,220. You are a son of Mr. George Johnston, merchant at +Tresta?-Yes. + +12,221. Is that in the same parish, but at some distance from your +place?-Yes; I think it is about eight miles away. + +12,222. Your father is in delicate health, and has not been able to +come to-day?-Yes. He has not been able to come in consequence +of the rough day. + +12,223. Were you concerned in his business before you set up +business on your own account?-Yes. + +12,224. You are acquainted with his business at Tresta as well as +with your own?-Yes. + +12,225. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. +Georgeson to-day?-Yes. + +12,226. Is your business and that of your father similar in character +to Mr. Georgeson's?-Yes, it is just the same only we have a spirit +licence in addition. My father has a public-house licence, and I +have a grocer's licence. + +12,227. Then you supply what spirits may be wanted in the +parishes of Walls and Sandsting?-Yes. I suppose we supply +the principal part of them; but the people may go to Lerwick or +any other place for them if they choose. + +12,228. Your dealings in that way, I suppose, are always settled for +in cash?-Yes, always in cash. + +12,229. Is the bulk of your other transactions paid for in cash +too?-No; there is a good deal of credit given. + +12,230. To what class of customers do you give credit?-To the +fishermen. + +12,231. Have you any fishermen who are employed in your own +boats?-We have no boats fishing to us. + +12,232. Do you buy cured fish or green fish from the fishermen?- +No, we don't buy any. My father has one vessel of his own that +goes to the Faroe fishing. He had three about five or six years ago. + +12,233. Where do you get the men for these Faroe vessels?-They +are very much scattered. Sometimes, we get part from Walls, and +sometimes part from Sandsting. + +12,234. Do these men take supplies for themselves and their +families during the summer from your father's shops?-Yes. + +12,235. And they have an account which is settled at the end of the +fishing season?-Yes. + +12,236. Do you buy no fish at all?-No. My father has an interest +in two boats that fish on the home banks off Shetland. That is the +cod fishing; they don't go to the Faroe fishing. They are smacks, +but they are small. + +12,237. That bank is between Shetland and Orkney?-Yes. + +12,238. Exclusive of the men who are engaged in the Faroe +fishing, have you or your father many accounts with fishermen +living in the district?-Not very [Page 301] many. We have some, +but they are principally with men who go south, and we supply +their families during the time they are away. They go principally +to Liverpool, and sometimes to Greenock, and enter the merchant +service. They remain away for a year or two, and then come home +for a winter. + +12,239. Do these men send allotment notes home to their wives?- +Not often. They generally remit money home at the end of the +voyage. + +12,240. Then you have no security at all for your advances, except +the personal credit of the men?-None at all. + +12,241. There may be some stock on their farms occasionally?- +Of course they have a little. + +12,242. Have you any accounts with fishermen on the ling fishing +at home?-Not many. There is no ling fishing carried on close to +where I live. + +12,243. But a few of your neighbours are engaged in it?-No. I +think there are none of them engaged in it. + +12,244. Is it the same with your father's place?-Yes; there is no +ling fishing there at all. + +12,245. Have you any accounts with fishermen engaged in the +Faroe fishing for other merchants than yourselves?-We have +some, but not many. + +12,246. I suppose these Faroe men generally open accounts with +the merchants in whose smacks they are engaged?-Yes, +generally. + +12,247. Have you anything to say in addition to what was stated by +Mr. Georgeson and Mr. Twatt in their evidence?-The only thing I +would like to say is, that I think all the men have complete liberty +to engage anywhere they choose, or to go to the fishing or south as +they like. I don't think any compulsion is used. + +12,248. I don't think any of the previous witnesses said there +was any compulsion in that way. Have you ever endeavoured to +purchase cured fish?-No. + +12,249. Why? Did you never think of it?-No. + +12,250. Was that because you considered you would have no +chance of getting the fish to buy?-I could hardly say that; but I +never thought much about it. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ARCHIBALD ABERNETHY, examined. + +12,251. Are you a shopkeeper at Whiteness, in the parish of +Tingwall?-I am. + +12,252. In what goods do you deal?-Principally in eggs and +butter. + +12,253. Do you deal in groceries and a little in soft goods?-Yes. + +12,254. Do you pay for eggs and butter generally in goods?-Yes, +generally; but I very often pay money for eggs too. + +12,255. Do you make a difference on the price, according as they +are paid for in money or in goods?-Yes; there is a difference of +1/2d. per dozen, as a general rule. + +12,256. Have you ever bought fish?-Yes, a little. + +12,257. Do you buy them dry or green?-I buy them green, and +cure them myself. + +12,258. Do you own any boats?-No. Occasionally I may hire a +boat and a crew for a month or two about this season of the year +for the spring fishing, before they go to Faroe. + +12,259. Do you fix the price of your fish at the time they are +delivered, or do you settle with the men for them according to the +price at the end of the season?-They will scarcely agree to fix a +price at the time they are delivered, in case the price of fish may +rise during the year, and then they expect to get a better price for +them. They prefer to wait until the fish go to the market, and then +they know what the price is. + +12,260. Is that what is done when you buy the fish green?-Yes. + +12,261. In that case, you settle with them according to the current +price at the end of the year?-Yes. I generally guarantee to give +them that price. + +12,262. I thought you said you had only one boat for a short time +at this season?-I sometimes have one or two boats for a short +time at this season, and that is generally the agreement I make with +them. + +12,263. Don't you buy the fish promiscuously, as it were, from any +man who comes and offers them to you?-Yes. + +12,264. Do you do that only in the winter and spring, or also in +the summer?-It is only in the winter and spring that I have the +chance of doing it. There are scarcely any fish got in our quarter +in the summer time, because the fishermen are generally engaged +in the Faroe fishing then. + +12,265. Are none of them engaged in the ling fishing?-None at +all. + +12,266. Do you keep accounts for supplies that you make to +fishermen?-Yes, a few. + +12,267. Are these men engaged in the Faroe or the ling fishing?- +Principally in the Faroe fishing. + +12,268. Do any of these men get their whole supplies from you?- +None of them. I think they are generally supplied from the shops +of the owners of the vessels they are in. + +12,269. Do they get the most of their supplies from there?-I think +so. + +12,270. Do these men live near your shop, or are they living at a +distance from you?-They live pretty near me. Some of them are +near neighbours, and others live about three or four miles away. + +12,271. How many men of that kind may there be who deal +occasionally with you, but who get the bulk of their supplies from +the parties for whom they are fishing?-I should fancy there may +be about forty or fifty of them. + +12,272. Have most of these men got accounts?-Generally they +have, but not to a great extent; perhaps for a few shillings. + +12,273. You understand they are supplied chiefly by the merchant +for whom they ship?-Yes, generally. + +12,274. Would it not be more convenient for them to get their +supplies nearer their own homes?-I don't know that it would +make much difference. It is not very far from our place to +Lerwick. I think it is only about eight or nine miles, and the +people generally are in the town every now and again with +hosiery and things of that kind. + +12,275. Who are the merchants with whom most of the men +engage for the Faroe fishing?-I think the principal parties are +Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay & and Messrs. Harrison & Sons. + +12,276. Do the people generally carry home their meal and +provisions from Lerwick when they buy meal there?-A good +deal of it comes in that way; but it is a very common thing, when +the men are going to Faroe, for them to bring the smack round to +Whiteness and leave a boll or two of meal at their houses there +before they go away. + +12,277. What prices do you pay for the fish caught in spring and +winter?-From 6s. 6d. to 7s. We are paying 7s. just now for cod. +There are very few ling caught. + +12,278 What is the price for the small fish?-It is 4s. 6d. for the +smallest and then there are different prices from that upwards until +we come to the big size. + +12,279. What quantity of fish will you get in that way from a +boat's crew in the course of a winter and spring?-I really don't +know. I don't get them all. They may come to me with a few +cwts. perhaps, and perhaps go to Scalloway or anywhere else with +the rest. They are quite at liberty during the winter, so far as I +know, to go anywhere they like where they can get the best price. +When they come to me they generally take what goods they want, +and if there is a balance over they usually get it in cash. + +12,280. When they come with fish in that way, I suppose you +generally ask them what they want after fixing the price?-They +know the price before they come with them, and they generally +want some things out of the shop. If they do not, then they get the +cash. + +[Page 302] + +12,281. Do you weigh the fish?-Yes, we weigh them in presence +of the men. + +12,282. Is not the first thing you do after that to see what goods +the people want?-Very seldom. I just ask them if they are +wanting any goods, and then they buy them; but they sometimes +take the whole price in money, and sometimes they settle previous +accounts with fish which they bring in that way. In winter that is +generally the way in which they settle their accounts with me. + +12,283. Are the accounts which the men run up in summer +generally settled by the sale of their winter fish?-Yes; that is +the way in which the thing is done in our quarter. + +12,284. How many tons of dry fish would you be able to sell from +that kind of trade?-Perhaps three or four tons, or the like of that. +It is not carried on to any great extent. + +12,285. Do you sell these fish at what is called the current +price?-No; I just take my chance. I get them dried perhaps +in April or May, and send them south. + +12,286. Can you sell them earlier than the large fish sales of the +year?-Yes. The spring fish are all dry by April or May. + +12,287. Is the price of cured fish generally higher early in the +season than it is in September, when the large sales take place?-I +don't know; the price is very fluctuating. + +12,288. Are you aware that the current price this year for ling was +£23 per ton?-Yes; but I am not aware of that price having been +paid for any of the small fish such as I am speaking of. + +12,289. What did you manage to sell your fish for last year?-I +sent them principally to Leith, and I got about £16 per ton for them +on an average, after deducting expenses. I do not know the price +at which the fish were actually sold, but that is what I realized. I +sent them to an agent in Leith, and that was my return. + +12,290. Do you suppose that any of the men that you bought fish +from would get as much as £5 from you in the course of the winter +and spring for their fish?-I don't think they would. + +12,291. Might one crew get as much as that?-Yes, more than +that; or if they were going to the spring fishing also, they would +get perhaps £4 or £5 each man for the big cod. I paid more than +that per man last year, when they had been both at the winter and +spring fishing. + +12,292. I suppose most of that would be settled for by the men +taking the goods?-No; I think three-fourths of it would be settled +for in cash. That would not be so in every case; but in some cases +more than three-fourths would be paid in cash. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, LEWIS F.U. GARRIOCK, examined. + + +12,293. You are a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co., general +merchants and fish-curers at Reawick?-I am. + +12,294. You have prepared a statement which you wish to appear +as part of your evidence?-Yes. + +12,295. Is that statement correct?-It is, to the best of my +knowledge. + +[The witness then handed in the following statement:-] + +'I am a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co. general +merchants and fish-curers at Reawick. + +'Mr. Umphray, the senior of the firm, and myself, are +proprietors of land. Mr. Umphray, my younger brother, +and I, are joint factors on the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby. + +'I am trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles. + +'Our general store for all sorts of goods is at Reawick. We have, +besides, two small shops or general stores, one in the Island +of Foula where there are about forty families, and the other at +Sandness, where there are about seventy-five families. + +'We engage our fishermen and servants from the district of +country comprising the parishes of Weisdale, Aithsting, Sandsting, +Walls, Sandness, and Foula, with a few from districts beyond +Tingwall, Burra, etc. + +'We cured last season the fish from ten smacks fishing at +Faroe, Iceland, etc., and five smaller vessels prosecuting the +fishing in the neighbourhood of our own and the Orkney Islands. +There are other owners interested in some of these vessels, but we +engaged the crews on shares; and at the end of the season, when +the value of the fish was realized, we accounted with owners and +men for their proportions. The gross +value will be about . . . £4600 0 0 +The cost of bait, + salt-curing, etc., . . £650 0 0 +The cost of biscuit, coals + on owners' account, 250 0 0 +Proportion paid crew + individually, . . 2200 0 0 +Proportion paid owners, 1500 0 0 + £4600 0 0 + +'The fishermen's proportion is paid to each of them in cash, +under deduction of any provisions and articles of clothing for +themselves, and provisions, etc., supplied to their families during +the season, so far as they have supplied themselves from us; but +they are under no obligation to take such advance from us and can, +if they choose buy their articles from any shopkeeper, either for +cash (which many of them have spare) or on credit. A few of the +men can do without advances, having spare money; but the fishing +could not be carried on if we were not to supply them, especially +as regards the lads in their first and second year. + +'In years when the fishing is not remunerative merchants +making those advances lose heavily in bad debts. + +'I have gone carefully over the accounts with the crews of two +smacks, and produce an abstract of the men's accounts, which +shows that, as respects one of them in 1870, we accounted to them +for £427,19s. 2d., of which they had from us for lines, hooks, and +provisions on board, £71, 7s. 9d.; clothing, and supplies of meal, +etc., to their families, £114, 14s. 5d.; and in cash, £239, 17s. The +other crew, in 1870, had, in lines, hooks, and provisions, £81, 7s. +11d.; goods, £129, 0s. 8d.; and in cash, £374, 13s. 6d. The same +crew, in 1871, in lines, provisions, etc., £63, 3s. 4d.; goods, £67, +7s.; cash, £198, 9s. 7d. Looking at the last two years as regards +our fishermen in smacks, it appears they have had considerably +more than half their gross shares paid them in cash. + +'We would, as merchants, greatly prefer a cash system, payment +being made upon the fish being delivered, the same as we do to +English smacks fishing for us at it contract price-and we derive +about one-third of our cure from this source. But I believe were +such a mode attempted it would lead to fixed wages, and would +end in loss to both men and owners, and a great falling off +in this branch of the fishery. + +'BOATS.-About one-fourth of our cure last year was from open +boats-six-oared boats at far haaf, and four-oared boats at home +haaf. About 63 tons of these are from crews who cure their own +fish, and deliver at one time, at the end of the curing season. The +remaining 71 tons are delivered fresh every day, as landed at +our stations. Those who cure their own fish, whether they have +advances of salt, meal, etc., from us or not, are at perfect liberty to +treat with and sell to any merchant they can get the best price from +when their fish are ready. Their boats and gear are all their own. +The understanding about those delivered fresh is, that we pay not +less than the current rate of the country. These men, as well as the +others, own their boats and gear. The peculiarities of their +situation make this mode of delivering in a fresh state a necessity. +At two of the stations we receive from in that way; and we prefer +it, although the fish should [Page 303] cost us higher than those +cured by the men themselves, as we can make a much better +article, having skilled men and better appliances. To show that +our boat fishers do see more than a pound at settlement, I take the +liberty to hand you herewith an abstract of my settlement last and +previous month with the men at two stations in Walls, by which it +appears that 36 men employed at far haaf, and 34 men at home +haaf, had value in fish, £829, 19s. 1d. Our supplies in boats, lines, +salt, meal, and other goods, was £29, 0s. 81/2d.; and I paid them in +cash £600, 18s. 41/2d. I have not access to some of the station +books; but, from an abstract of my last year's settlement at one of +these stations, there was placed to credit of the men for fish, work, +curing, etc., £655, 0s. 6d., which was thus disposed of: + '1st. To account of arrears of advances + of meal, etc., from previous years, £71 12 7 + '2d. Fishing material, meal, goods, and + cash from storekeeper during year, 270 7 2 + '3d. Cash at settlement, 313 0 9 + +'It is not always so; this same island for three years, 1867-69, +suffered severely from the crops being blasted, and the fishing of +1868 proving a failure (each fisherman's earnings for the whole +year only amounting to about £3). We supplied them with meal +during these years, at the end of which they were due us £228, 19s. +9d., besides some arrears of rent to Dr. Scott. All this is now +cleared off, unless some three or four individuals; and the more +provident have a good few pounds saved. + +'In settling with our men, the whole crew, both as respects smacks +and boats, are brought in together, and the statement of the +division is gone over carefully. Afterwards each man comes +separately, and every item of his account read over, or if a +pass-book is kept (which is very common) it is made up. Copies +of the account are given in every case when desired. I think our +men are perfectly satisfied with the present system. + +'The tenants on the Melby estate are perfectly free to earn their +living as they choose; and it is the same as regards Mr. Umphray's +tenants (who number 75) and my own. On going over the roll of +Mr. Umphray's tenants, I observe there are only 17 fishing to my +firm (some of them only part of the season), and of my tenants +only 4. + +'It is the exception, not the rule, for our fishermen to be in debt +to us. Of the 70 men representing the sixteen crews of which I +have given particulars, all had money to get, with the exception of +six, who are due us balances to the amount of £33, 2s. + +'We employed last year 40 beach boys, from 13 to 17 years of +age. All had cash to get at settlement, and none are in advance +on the coming season. + +'HOSIERY.-We take hosiery in barter for any sort of goods +required, including meal and provisions. We have found this +branch of trade uniformly a losing one but it is convenient for our +customers-families who occupy their spare time from farm work +in knitting plain articles-to get such exchanged; and it would put +them much about if we were to give it up, being so far from +Lerwick, and the neighbouring country shops only taking such +things as they have an outlet for. A good many of the girls go to +town, perhaps once in the year, with their hosiery. + +'EGGS.-We take in eggs in the same way, but pay cash readily +when asked. + +'We have only one price in our stores for goods, whether sold +for cash or barter. + +'My firm has no separate account for the wife, and with other +members of the family, unless when such are working or fishing +for themselves.' + +12,296. You say in your statement that Mr. Umphray and yourself +are proprietors of land: is that in the district in which your business +is carried on?-Mr. Umphray is a proprietor of land there. His +rental is somewhere between £300 and £400, and the number of +his tenants is between 70 and 80. + +12,297. What is the rental and the number of tenants on the Melby +estate?-The rental is about £1200, and there are nearly 300 +tenants; but I cannot give the exact number. + +12,298. Do most of the tenants on these estates fish for you in +summer?-There are more of them who fish for us than for any +other. + +12,299. Do you think all who are engaged in the ling fishing fish +for you?-By no means; but I should say that fully three-fourths of +them do. + +12,300. You say in your statement that you are trustee for the +proprietors of the Burra Isles: are they the Misses Scott of +Scalloway?-Yes. Mrs. Spence and Miss Scott. + +12,301. Are you aware that some complaints were made by the +inhabitants of the Burra Isles, a few years ago, to the agent for the +proprietors in Edinburgh?-Yes, there was a letter sent to him. + +12,302. In consequence of these complaints, did you make an +investigation and report?-Yes; I went to the island to inquire into +the matter. The prayer of the petition was, that the proprietors +should be more careful, when another lease was given, not to +allow certain things which the tenants complained of to be inserted +in it. + +12,303. At that time was a new lease in contemplation?-No; +there were two or three years to run of the old lease. + +12,304. Was the lease of Burra, under which the islands were then +held by Messrs. Hay, granted during your management?-No; it +had been granted some years before. + +12,305. A copy of the letter to Mr. Mack which occasioned the +inquiry, was sent to you at the time?-Yes. + +12,306. The first complaint in that letter was, 'That every +householder is bound to pay £1 sterling annually for every son +who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing +smack, not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea +Co.; otherwise he must remove from the island, or expel any such +son from his home.' I have not seen the lease in question, but did +you find that that was a well-founded complaint?-There was +nothing of the kind stated in the lease. My understanding of the +complaint is, that when the lease was taken by Messrs. Hay, they +entered into an arrangement with the tenants with regard to the +terms on which they were to occupy under them. + +12,307. Did you ascertain whether any such stipulation had been +entered into between Messrs. Hay and the tenants?-I investigated +the matter upon the spot, but I could not find any case where the +money had been paid. + +12,308. In what year did you make the investigation?-In 1869. + +12,309. Did you find any case in which the money had been +demanded?-I did not find any; but I understand that Messrs. +Hay had sent round or had handed to each of the tenants the terms +of the engagement under which they were to occupy, and that +there was something about it in that. I did not see it myself; but I +understood they were either to fish to Messrs. Hay, or to have +liberty to fish elsewhere if they chose on payment of £1. That was +the rule that had been laid down by Messrs. Hay; but I could not +trace any case in which the money had been paid. + +12,310. Have you any objection to state the name of the party who +wrote the letter to Mr. Mack which you now hold in your hand?-I +believe it was a private communication, and I would rather not +mention the name. The writer says, 'Having fulfilled my promise +to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential +communication may receive your kind consideration.' I don't +know that it is of much importance who wrote the letter; but I may +mention that he was a minister who was in the habit of visiting the +island, and to whom some of the people had made complaints. It +became very clear to me, from my investigation, that the case had +been very much overstated. I got particulars of the prices paid to +the men for several years, and I made inquiry at other places in the +neighbourhood about the prices, and I could not find that they had +any cause of complaint about the prices paid to them for their fish. + +[Page 304] + +12,311. Did you find the statement to be correct which is +contained in the third head of the letter: 'The price given is +never less than 1s. per cwt. below the average paid for green fish +in the islands; and in the case of herring, not less than 5s. per cran +below the market price is a common thing'?-There was no +foundation for that statement whatever. I found the Burra people +were getting fully as much as any other fishermen. + +12,312. Did you ascertain that from an examination of the books +of Messrs. Hay & Co, or from statements made by the people +themselves?-I ascertained the prices paid to the men from +Messrs. Hay & Co.'s books, and on comparing it with the prices +paid in other localities, I found that that was an unfounded +statement altogether. + +12,313. Did you find that the fourth complaint, about oysters +being underpaid, was correct?-I found that in that very season +the men were selling their oysters where they liked. There was no +restriction at all at that time. There had been before. I believe +Messrs. Hay had endeavoured to prevent anybody from coming in +and dredging upon the oyster beds that lay between the islands, +and to get the people to deliver the oysters to them; but they had +given up that before that time and allowed them to sell them where +they chose. + +12,314. I suppose the result of there being no restriction is that the +oyster beds are nearly exhausted?-They are almost entirely +exhausted. In the course of two seasons they were all taken up. + +12,315. Did you ascertain whether a regular system of deception +had been practised in order to evade the obligation to deliver to +Messrs. Hay, while the restriction existed about the oysters?-I did +not find that there was a regular system of deception, because, at +the time when I made my inquiry, any oysters which the men +dredged were sold where they pleased. Messrs. Hay found out, +that unless they had an Act of Parliament, they did not have the +power of hindering the men from selling where they chose. That +oyster bed had been held by the proprietor almost exclusively as +his own property, and for generations it was dealt with as such. +Messrs. Hay & Co. came into the proprietor's place and I daresay +they very naturally supposed that they had the same right; but on +the men insisting on selling where they chose, they found they +could not prevent them. + +12,316. Did you find that at the time when it was supposed Messrs. +Hay had that power, a system of deception had prevailed, as is +alleged in this letter, in order to evade the supposed obligation?- +That is one way of putting it; but I should suppose that before the +matter was determined as to the right of the people to sell oysters +where they chose, they had been in the habit of quietly going to +other parties with the oysters, that Messrs. Hay should not know. + +12,317. Then I suppose that, so far as it went, that complaint +was not very far from the truth?-It was perfectly untrue. The +statement made in the complaint was that Messrs. Hay only gave +1s. per 100, and that that was paid in goods, while the men could +get 2s. 6d. elsewhere. I found that to be utterly untrue. + +12,318. Was it the case that Messrs. Hay paid a larger price +than was stated, or that the higher price could not be obtained +elsewhere?-Oysters had been selling years before as low as 1s. +per 100; but Messrs. Hay were paying the same price as other +people at that time. I think 2s. 6d. was the price in 1869. + +12,319. Were Messrs. Hay paying that price then?-They were +paying the same as Mr. Harcus who is still a buyer. + +12,320. Was he the only other buyer?-No. I believe Mr. +Nicholson and Mr. Tait also purchased about that time. + +12,321. But the previous time, when the oysters were selling for +1s. per 100, was before the date of your inquiry?-Yes, it must +have been some time before. + +12,322. Could a larger price have been got elsewhere than from +Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I don't know. I know that oysters were not +so dear at that time as they became afterwards; but at the time +when Messrs. Hay & Co. were the only parties buying oysters, they +got very few. They were not fished to any great extent. + +12,323. Did you find that the fifth complaint, that every person +on the island selling any article to a neighbour was liable to +expulsion, had any foundation?-It had a foundation to this extent, +that Messrs. Hay did not allow anybody to set up a shop in the +island; but it was nonsense to say that people were not allowed to +sell any article to a neighbour, such as fish or any of their produce. + +12,324. A resident clergyman or schoolmaster might have got fish +for his table if he wanted them?-Yes, or any article of produce +that the people had. The complaint was only true so far that the +people were not allowed to set up retail shops in the island. + +12,325. Was there any prohibition on selling tea?-That is what I +refer to. + +12,326. Even if they had no shop, was not one neighbour +prevented from selling a 1/2 lb. or 1/4 lb. of tea to another?-I +am not aware that Messrs. Hay ever looked into the matter so +closely as that. + +12,327. But was not that the substance of their complaint?-Of +course, if anybody had set up a tea-shop, that would have been +objected to. But this complaint refers to the practice of getting tea +and other goods from merchants in exchange for hosiery; and it +goes on to say, that if a woman exchanged that for anything she +wanted, she exposed her family to the loss of house and land, and +expulsion from the island, if she was known to sell any of the +goods she had received in return for her handiwork to any +neighbour. + +12,328. Did you hear of any person being expelled for that?-No, +nor threatened. They told me that several of them would have +had tea and various other things in the island for selling to their +neighbours, if they had been allowed, but that they were prevented +from doing so, and I approved of that. + +12,329. Did you find that the people were in a state of nervous +apprehension about expulsion?-Not in the least. + +12,330. Then how do you account for this letter, and for these +charges being made, if they were not in a state of anxiety and +nervousness about the matter?-I think the case was put much +more strongly in the letter than it had been put to the writer of +the letter by the people themselves. + +12,331. You don't think that the people of Shetland or the +inhabitants of Burra are liable to panics of that kind?-There +was no panic that I was aware of at that time. Some of the people, +when I read over the letter to them, were very much amused to +hear what had been said, and they attributed the statements to two +or three persons who were usually dissatisfied with their condition. + +12,332. Is it within your knowledge whether the Burra people were +in the habit for a series of years of carrying over their oysters to +Lerwick, and retailing them there openly?-Yes. I have often met +them carrying oysters to Lerwick in kishies for the purpose of +selling them there. + +12,333. You are acquainted with that from the fact that you then +resided in Scalloway?-Yes, and from coming and going and +meeting the people. + +12,334. Did you find existing in Burra, at that time, feeling of +bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees +themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants +under them?-I could not say that there was anything of that sort. +I found that the people would much rather not have been under a +lessee at all, but have been allowed each to fish for himself. + +12,335. Did they wish to fish and cure for themselves?-Some of +them would have liked that, but I found from the best fishermen +that they would not have considered that to be any advantage for +the island on the whole. + +12,336. What reason did they assign for their objection to being +under a lessee?-Just that they were under certain restrictions as to +the ling fishing; and naturally a man would prefer to be altogether +free, and to be able to deal as he chose. + +[Page 305] + +12,337. Did you think these restrictions were such that the people +might reasonably complain of them?-I thought they had not +much to complain of. + +12,338. At that time the lease of Messrs. Hay & Co. was within a +year or two of its termination?-Yes. I think it was the last year of +it. + +12,339. The letter was dated 5th April 1869, and think the lease +expired in November following. Has it been renewed since?-No. +The tack has been continued on the old plan for two years, as a +sort of intermediate arrangement. There is just a missive which +expires in November next. Indeed I had some difficulty in getting +Messrs. Hay to renew the arrangement, even for two years. + +12,340. Were they unwilling to resume their liability for the rents +upon the same terms?-Yes. The reason they gave to me was, that +the great bulk of the people were fishing where they chose, and +that they did not have much profit by the island. + +12,341. Do you mean in the ling fishing, or in the Faroe fishing?- +I mean in the fishings generally. There were only a few old men +remaining at home for the fishings, and it was not a great deal of +the produce of the island that they had anything to do with. + +12,342. Do Messrs. Hay pay the tack duty annually or half-yearly +to the proprietors?-Half-yearly. + +12,343. The tenants, I suppose, as is usual in Shetland, pay only +once a year?-Yes, they pay in November. + +12,344. If the proprietors were taking the ground into their +own hands, is it probable they would require the tenants to pay +half-yearly, or has that been in your contemplation?-The money +would require to be raised half-yearly, because it has to be paid +half-yearly. There are heavy liabilities such as interest on bonds to +be paid out of it every half-year, and the money must be raised for +that purpose. + +12,345. Do you believe it to be possible for the tenants in Havera, +or on such an island, to pay their rents half-yearly?-I don't think +such a system would work. Spring and summer is the time when +they earn their money to pay their rents with, and we would not be +able to collect the rents at Whitsunday from the tenants. + +12,346. Are you aware whether the tacksmen of Burra interfere +with the tenants in the sale of their cattle hosiery, or eggs?-I +know they do not interfere with them in that way. + +12,347. Are you aware whether the tacksmen insist on the tenants +taking their supplies from their shops at Scalloway or Lerwick?-I +am sure they do not. Nobody ever alleged that to me. + +12,348. Would you as trustee for the proprietors, object to such a +restriction?-Certainly. + +12,349. Are you the factor on the estate?-I am trustee. I have +to collect the money from the property, and pay the burdens, and +account to the ladies for the residue. + +12,350. Do you suppose the Burra islanders would be benefited +by the establishment of shops in Burra by the tacksmen?-I don't +think that would be any particular benefit to them. + +12,351. Is there a population there to support shops?-Not shops. + +12,352. Or a shop?-I daresay a shop might pay; but I don't think +it would be any advantage to the people. They are so near to +Scalloway that a shop in Burra would only get a portion of the +custom of the island. + +12,353. Do you think the Burra men have an opportunity of +purchasing their goods at other shops than Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- +Certainly; they don't deal exclusively with them. They can buy +their goods where they like and I think they divide their custom +very much. + +12,354. Where else do they buy?-In the other Scalloway shops +and in Lerwick. + +12,355. Did you ascertain that in the course of the inquiry which +you made in 1869?-It is a fact well known to me from my +intercourse with the people, I am meeting them every month, not +on the island, but elsewhere. + +12,356. Do they tell you that they purchase their goods elsewhere +than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I never put the question to them, +because I was quite aware of their dealings being divided. A great +many of the men are fishing to smack owners in Lerwick, and +probably have a good deal of their dealings with the merchants +they fish to. + +12,357. Are some of them in your own Faroe vessels?-Yes, we +have two or three. + +12,358. Is that your reason for believing that they are not confined +in their dealings to the shops of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I know that +to be a fact, from various circumstances. + +12,359. But you know it from the circumstance that they are +engaged in fishing to other merchants?-No; that does not follow. + +12,360. It does not follow as a necessary consequence that they +do not deal with Messrs. Hay & Co. but it is a reasonable +presumption, that if they are fishing to another merchant they +get some of their supplies from his shop?-Certainly. + +12,361. Are you prepared to say that the bulk of the dealings of the +Burra men is not at Messrs. Hay's shops?-I should think that +much more than one half of their dealings must be with other +people. That is speaking of the whole population of the island, +and including those men who go to Faroe. + +12,362. Are the greater number of the men in Burra engaged in +the Faroe fishing?-There are more of them engaged in the Faroe +fishing than in any other. + +12,363. And more on an average than in other districts in +Shetland?-Yes. They have taken to that kind of fishing +more readily than others. + +12,364. How, does it happen that they have taken to it?-I don't +know; I suppose it is just from their position, and their early +training in boats. They take to a good fishing rather than to the +Greenland trade. They are generally good fishermen. Taking +them as a class, they are better fishermen than in any other district +that I know of in Shetland. + +12,365. Would it be a reasonable presumption to suppose that they +had taken to the Faroe fishing in order to avoid the restrictions +which are laid upon them with regard to the ling fishing?- +Certainly not. These young men would not have remained at +home about the shore fishing. If they had not gone to Faroe they +would have gone to the merchant service or to Greenland. + +12,366. Do you think the restriction had anything at all to do with +it?-Nothing whatever. + +12,367. But you ascertained in the course of your inquiries, and +you know now, that there is a restriction by the terms of their +leases upon the Burra men with regard to the ling fishing?-Yes, +they hold their land under condition that they are to deliver their +fish to Messrs, Hay. + +12,368. Your largest shop is at Reawick, and you have also two +small ones at Foula and Sandness?-Yes. + +12,369. Do most of the fishermen engaged in the ling fishing +usually deal at one or other of the stores you have mentioned?- +Yes; there is no other store near. + +12,370. Do you mean that there is no other store near Reawick?- +No. I thought you referred to the two smaller shops. All the men +get the whole of their supplies from our stores there. + +12,371. At Sandness and Foula there are no other stores within +reach of the fishermen residing there?-No. + +12,372. Is there any restriction upon the opening of other shops +in Foula, or on the sale of goods there by any other party who +chooses to attempt that?-As acting for the proprietor, I don't +think we would allow it. We would not allow small shops in +either of these districts if we could help it. + +12,373. Would you allow a trader from Scalloway or Lerwick +to sell goods out of his smack there?-Yes; and I have known +instances of them going there from [Page 306] Walls and +Scalloway. There is no restriction upon the like of that. + +12,374. Are the inhabitants sometimes supplied with meal and +articles of dress and provisions by other merchants from the +mainland?-The Foula people, annually, when their fishing is +over, come to the mainland, and they can then lay in what supplies +they are in need of. + +12,375. Do they come in every year themselves?-Not the whole +of them, but many of them do. + +12,376. Do you know whether or not any traders visit the islands +for the purpose of selling provisions or goods?-No; they have not +done that lately. They could have no object in going there. + +12,377. Why?-Because they could not compete with us. We +have a shop there for the supply of goods, and we supply them to +the people on as moderate terms as other parties could do. +Therefore the men have no object in dealing elsewhere. + +12,378. I suppose it would be a very small trade that could be +driven with 40 families?-Yes, rather. + +12,379. But I presume you consider it fair that, as you supply these +families year by year, and are in a sense responsible that their +supply shall not run short, you should in return have the bulk of +their business?-They may go where they choose. + +12,380. But would you continue to supply them if you did not have +the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if +we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth +our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the young +men wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to the +mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it, +and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty +or not and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to +the schoolmaster, and asked him, to circulate it among the men. + +[The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in +the affirmative by 65 men:- + +'Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a curing +establishment on the island of Foula, and found the undivided +produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of it, while +furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at ordinary +rates, would, now that some parties have shown an inclination and +even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain the views of +the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to continue their +establishment as before; or would they prefer each to cure as it +suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can? Whilst there is +always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour, and sell their +produce in what appears to them the best market, the isolated +position of the island appears to require that one system be +followed by all. + +'The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please +indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the +former system be preferred; or no if otherwise.-1867.'] + +12,381. Were there any negatives to the paper?-No. It created + +great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they +would be left to their own resources. + +12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the +islanders?-Yes, we went on as before. + +12,383. Was it previous to that that the last attempt was made to +trade in the island by outside traders?-I think so; I do not think +there has been anything of that sort attempted for several years. + +12,384. Do you remember when any attempt of that kind was +made?-I cannot say. I remember hearing of some boats coming +in from Walls or Scalloway, I forget which. + +12,385. Did you object to any one coming from Orkney?-No, not +in this generation. They came from Orkney above 80 years ago. + +12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made by +the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we +found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given +it up themselves, as it had not been paying them. + +12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to the +inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you +green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have +their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and +boats there, and part of their trade would not pay. I may say that +we supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at +Reawick. + +12,388. The majority of the fishermen engaged in your ling +fishing, you have said, have their accounts at one or other of your +shops, and those at Foula and Sandness have no other shops within +reach?-Yes. + +12,389. Is it not the case that many of the men have accounts and +take their supplies at Reawick, who live much more conveniently +for other dealers in the district?-Yes, we have accounts with +many people in the neighbourhood of other shops. + +12,390. But the men come to you, I suppose, because they sell +their fish to you?-I don't know. For instance, we give very small +supplies to the Walls men. They deal a good deal in the shops in +their own neighbourhood, and we pay them for their fish in cash. I +have mentioned in my statement, that of £829, 19s. 1d., which was +the amount of their earnings, we paid them 18s. 41/2d. in cash at +settlement. These men lived from 8 to 10 miles distant from +Reawick, and with some of them we have no dealings in goods at +all. + +12,391. Do men who live nearer Reawick take a greater amount of +supplies from you?-Yes. + +12,392. Why do you not adopt, with these men on the mainland, +the same rule which you have laid down at Foula, that you must +have their whole dealings or none?-We don't require to do it +with the men on the mainland. They are at perfect liberty to deal +where they choose. + +12,393. But you might lay down that rule if you pleased?-We +might; but I would not consider it fair to do so. + +12,394. Would it be impracticable to carry it out?-I don't know. +I suppose it is done in some places in Shetland; but the men in our +neighbourhood have always been free to deal where they chose, +since we had anything to do with them, and we were always +prepared to pay them for their fish in money. + +12,395. But, in point of fact, they have sometimes taken a very +large portion of their earnings in goods?-I think, when we give in +our schedules, it will be found that we have paid them more than +one half of their earnings in money. + +12,396. Was it not the case formerly, that the amount paid in +goods was much larger than it has been for the last few years?- +I don't think so. + +12,397. I understand you buy a considerable quantity of fish which +have been already cured by the crews themselves?-Yes. We +don't look upon these men as our fishermen. They are at perfect +liberty to sell their fish when they are cured, to any one they +please. + +12,398. But, in point of fact, many of these crews are composed +of tenants upon your own or Mr. Umphray's property, or on +Melby?-Yes, a good many of the ling fishers are. + +12,399. Are you aware whether these men have been invited to sell +their cured fish to other dealers than you?-Yes; I suppose they +have offers every year. + +12,400. But they generally prefer to sell them to you?-They do. +We can always give them the best price, because we are exporters, +and buy from the merchants; and we have always given the men +the benefit of the highest price going. + +12,401. Have you been told by them that they have been offered +a higher price than you paid them, but that they preferred +notwithstanding to sell to you?-No; I never knew of any case +of that sort. + +12,402. I have been told today that some men in that district have +been willing to give a higher, or at least as high, a price as that +which you gave at the end of the season for cured fish, and that +they could not get the fishermen to give them the chance of buying +them at all: has that come within your knowledge?-I think that is +wrong. I was not present when these parties were examined +to-day; but I know that one of them near our station at Dale +offered the men this year £21 [Page 307] for their ling if they +would sell them, but they preferred just to put fish into our hands +without the price being stated, and we paid them £22 for the same +fish. + +12,403. What was the current price this year?-The shipping price +for ling was £23, but these fish cured by the men themselves are +not equal to the fish cured by us or by the larger curers. They are +somewhat inferior, as they are cured in smaller quantities. + +12,404. Were the men to whom that offer was made mostly tenants +of your farm, or on the Melby estate?-Not necessarily; but I think +the bulk of them must have been tenants on Melby. + +12,405. Has any intimation ever been made to the tenants on that +estate that they ought to sell their fish to you?-Never. + +12,406. Has the contrary been intimated to them by Dr. Scott or by +yourself?-It has always been given out that they were at perfect +freedom to fish where they chose. + +12,407. In your statement about the Faroe fishing, you say that the +fishing could not be carried on if you were not to supply them, +especially as regards lads in their first and second year: is it the +case that lads at the Faroe fishing, in their first and second years, +are generally much more deeply in debt to the merchant than the +older men?-Yes; they require larger outfits, and they have not +had any means of earning money before with which to buy clothes. + +12,408. Are these outfits necessarily obtained from the merchant +who owns the smack in which they sail?-We are obliged to +advance them to them. It is rather a risky thing for us sometimes, +but they cannot go to the fishing unless they have such supplies. + +12,409. Still you can secure yourselves at settlement?-Yes, if +they make a fishing. + +12,410. And if they don't make a fishing, they will probably +engage with you in the following year?-As a rule they do. + +12,411. If they did not, you could take them to the Small-Debt +Court?-Of course; but we always prefer a free man to a man who +is in the book with balance against him. + +12,412. Do you find that such a man fishes with more heart than a +man who is in debt?-Undoubtedly. + +12,413. He thinks he is going to get something for himself, and not +merely something to pay off a debt?-For many years we have had +very few indebted men, so that I cannot say much about that. + +12,414. In arranging with the crew of a smack for the year's +fishing, do you embody your agreement in writing?-Yes; it is a +stamped agreement. There is one for the crew of each smack, and +they are written out each year. + +12,415. Do they differ materially in their details?-They are +all the same for the Faroe fishing. They have been altered from +year to year, according to circumstances, but not very much. + +12,416. Does that agreement leave the whole power of +disposing of the produce and of fixing the price in the hands +of the fish-curer?-Not of fixing the price exactly. The men +are to be paid at the current price for the year. That is their +stipulation with us. + +12,417. But the ascertainment of the current price is left entirely to +the merchant?-Yes. The merchants have to dispose of the fish, +and account for them to the men. + +12,418. These agreements make the fishermen and the merchant +really partners or joint adventurers, so far as the fishing of the +season is concerned?-Of course they do. + +12,419. But it leaves the merchant in the position of having the +sole power over the produce, both as to selling it and fixing the +price?-He has the power of completing the cure of it and of +selling it. The merchant has to take the risk in selling. If we were +to sell to a party who failed, we would still be responsible to the +men for the current price. + +12,420. Is that expressed in the agreement?-I don't think it is +expressed in our agreement, but it is understood. + +12,421. Is it not the case that the fishermen can only claim what is +really got for the fish?-No. If we were to sell them at half-price, +we would still be bound to pay the men the current rate at the end +of the season. + +12,422. If you sold them for the current price, but failed to recover +that price from the buyer, would the fishermen have any recourse +against you?-Yes; we would have to pay them. + +12,423. Has that been done frequently?-No. There was one +instance where we sold fish and got almost nothing for them, and +yet accounted to the men for the price. I think that was in 1867. +The party to whom we sold the fish stopped payment, and we only +got a small compromise. + +12,424. Had you paid your fishermen before the failure?-I think +not; at least we knew of the loss before we settled with the +fishermen, but there never was any thought of not paying them. +We knew that we were responsible for the payment to the men, +under the terms of the agreement. + +12,425. Then the agreement does lay the risk upon you?-Yes, it +does lay the risk upon us, although it does not expressly state +anything about a loss. + +12,426. The other articles in the agreement provide for the amount +of food to be furnished by the owners?-Yes. + +12,427. And a scale of victualling if the men go to Iceland?-No, +we have nothing about that. Our fishermen are all partners to the +end of the season. We do not pay them in wages at all. + +12,428. Are there not sometimes special stipulations for that +event?-Other owners sometimes send out their vessels on wages, +but then it is another agreement altogether that is entered into. + +12,429. What are the other conditions in your agreement?-The +owners bind themselves to find the ship, and everything relating to +her; to provide the coals necessary for the voyage; and to give the +men an allowance of 8 lbs. of bread per week. The men, on the +other side, agree to accept of a certain proportion of the fishing: +one half, after deducting certain items for salting and curing the +fish, in full of wages, or as their interest in the affair; and they also +provide bait. The details of the agreement are given in the +statement I have produced. + +12,430. You say that sixty-three tons of your cure is from crews +who cure their own fish and deliver them at one time at the end of +the curing season; and these, of course, as you have already said, +would be sold at a rather lower price than fish of your own +cure?-Yes. They are never equal to our own cure; indeed they +cannot be, from want of skill; and from the fish being cured in +very small quantities, they can never be properly pressed. + +12,431. Do you know of any case in which a trader in Walls +attempted some time ago to introduce the practice of buying fish, +and paying for them in cash at delivery?-Yes, I have heard of +that, I think, in more cases than one. + +12,432. Have you tried it yourself?-No, I don't think we have. +Sometimes, if we buy small quantities from the fishermen, we pay +them in cash if they wish it so. + +12,433. But you have not known any case in which that has been +attempted throughout the whole year?-I think the men could +always sell for cash at any season if they chose. + +12,434. Could they sell in that way to you?-Yes, to me or to any +of the dealers in Walls. We would be quite prepared to take their +fish and to pay them cash, but we would pay for them at such a +safe price that they would not sell them. + +12,435. Have you known of any dealer other than yourself who has +attempted to introduce that system?-I know that the Walls people +have offered to buy from the fishermen generally, and to pay cash +if they chose, and they have probably paid some. + +12,436. Do you know why they have not succeeded in carrying out +that system?-They could not agree with the men about the price. +They would not give so high a price in cash as the men expected. + +12,437. You say that last year you employed forty beach boys from +thirteen to seventeen years of age, all [Page 308] of whom had +cash to get, and none of whom are in advance on the coming +season: is that a usual state of things with the people employed in +curing?-It is with us. + +12,438. But I suppose that, in fact, they all take supplies from your +stores during the season?-Yes, more or less. They must have +meal to live upon, at any rate. + +12,439. And they get that as they want it from you in the course of +the season?-Yes. + +12,440. Are they paid by beach fees?-Yes; they are paid by a +certain sum, which is settled for at the end of the season. + +12,441. Are any of them paid by weekly wages?-We have a +number of people employed in curing fish, who are paid either +daily or weekly-just occasional hands; and we sometimes have to +put out quantities of fish to be cured by contract. These are paid +for in cash as soon as the fish are put into the store and weighed. + +12,442. In that case, are advances made at your store to the parties +so employed?-Yes. We sometimes advance money while the +work is going on, but never goods. + +12,443. If they want money, do they come to you with a line +from the contractor?-We have never given it in that way. If the +contractor requires some money to pay the people who are +working for him, he comes for it himself. + +12,444. Have you any dealings at all with the parties employed +under your contractor, or do you make him transact all the +necessary business with them?-We transact with him entirely: +we have nothing to do with the parties under him. + +12,445. Do you also employ parties in the curing at weekly wages +yourselves?-Yes. At Reawick and at all the stations we have +extra hands on when there is much to do. + +12,446. Do you find that these parties require to come to you for +supplies before the weekly pay-day?-There are some cases of +that kind, I daresay. + +12,447. Is it not the case, in the majority of cases, that you have to +give them supplies?-The most of our payments in that way are in +cash, and they are made every week or ten days. + +12,448. Is Saturday your pay-day?-We have no fixed pay-day for +the people employed among the fish. + +12,449. If they require to come for, advances in the meantime, in +what way are these given out?-Most of our work in that way is +done at Scalloway, where we have no shop, and we could not give +them goods. They get their money when their work is done every +week, or at all events within the fortnight. + +12,450. Do they not get advances of money in the interim?-No, +not the daily hands. The contractors whom I mentioned before +sometimes get some money. + +12,451. But the daily hands don't get any money until the +settlement?-Not as a rule. I may perhaps give them a few +shillings between the pays, but that is not common thing; they +don't require it. + +12,452. If they want supplies in the meantime, have you any idea +how they get them?-I have no doubt they can get credit from the +shops in Scalloway. + +12,453. Do you know whether they have a practice of applying to +your manager there for a line or a certificate, to the effect that they +have wages to receive in order to satisfy the shopkeeper?-No; I +don't think they do that. + +12,454. Have you ever known of such cases?-I don't remember +of any case, and I don't think there has ever been a case of the +kind. + +12,455. Do you know whether these people run accounts with the +shopkeepers in Scalloway?-I know that often what they have to +get on the Saturday night is partly forestalled in the shops. + +12,456. Have they told you that, or how have you found it out?-I +have found out from the shops that they were giving them credit. + +12,457. Have the shopkeepers applied to you to stop their +wages?-No; I would not stand that. I have always paid the +money over to the people themselves, and if they have run +accounts they have to go themselves and pay them. + +12,458. Have you found a tendency among the people employed +by you to run into debt in that way at Scalloway?-Yes. + +12,459. Do you not think that is due to the system which prevails +in the country, of running accounts instead of paying in ready +money?-I cannot say. + +12,460. Would you say that a party who was engaged to work to +you for a week at curing, feels that it is a natural thing when he has +money to receive at the end of the week, to have it all exhausted +by his out-takes from the shop before it is due?-I don't know if it +is the feeling; but it is just a custom they have got into, and a bad +custom. + +12,461. Then there is such a tendency to get into debt before the +pay is due even when it is paid in cash?-Yes, there is a tendency +in that way. + +12,462. You say that you found the hosiery trade a losing one for +you, but convenient for your customers?-Yes; that is the only +reason why we have anything to do with it. + +12,463. Is it convenient for your customers because they get +supplies of goods for hosiery at your shop, without the necessity +of taking the hosiery to another market and selling it?-Yes. +When they come to us with money and eggs, and produce of that +kind, they may have some hosiery with them too; and we cannot +very well turn them away, and cause them to go a great distance +with it. + +12,464. Do you fix the price of the hosiery?-Yes. + +12,465. You do not require to take it at a price which would not +remunerate yourselves?-No. Of course, if they asked more than +we were inclined to give, they would have to take it away. + +12,466. Have you any dealings in kelp?-None. There is some +kelp on Dr. Scott's property, but Mr. Adie purchases it. + +12,467. Does he pay a rent to Mr. Scott for the kelp shores?-He +pays a trifle; it is not much. + +12,468. You say you have a certain number of boats engaged in +what is called the home cod fishing?-Yes, they are small smacks. + +12,469. You are almost the only people who are still engaged in +that business?-Yes. + +12,470. What number of vessels do you employ in that way?-We +had five out last year; we used to have ten or twelve. + +12,471. What would be the number of the crews in these five +vessels?-They would average nine hands. + +12,472. How long in the year are they engaged in that fishing?- +For a little more than three months, from 1st May to 15th August. +The men in that fishing go on shares, and are settled with in the +same way as those on board the Faroe smacks. The arrangement +as to the division is different in these vessels The crew get +seven-twelfths of the earnings, and we don't find bread or coals. + +12,473. Do these men come home oftener than the Faroe +fishers?-Yes; they come home weekly. I now produce a +settlement with one of these vessels. [Produces it.] + +12,474. That shows that, as nearly as possible, four-fifths of the +whole earnings were paid in cash?-Yes. Two of these men are +our tenants. I think we had three of Mr. Hay's tenants in that +vessel. It is a mixed crew; we never ask whose property they are +on when we engage them. + +12,475. You say in your statement that your firm has no separate +accounts for the wife and none with the other members of the +family, unless when they are working or fishing for themselves: is +that when the other members of the family are fishermen or beach +boys?-Yes. + +12,476. Or when the wife is engaged in curing?-We have no +married women employed in any branch of our business. + +12,477. Do you keep any account with women engaged in the +curing?-No. These women are only employed by the day. + +12,478. I believe that you are yourself a skilful boatman, and +acquainted with the fishing in all its details? Do you think it +possible in Shetland to prosecute the [Page 309] winter fishing +to a greater extent than at present, if boats of a superior class were +introduced?-Not to any great extent. I have no doubt the fishing +will increase. It is increasing, and will increase, and the boats will +be improved + +12,479. I presume you would be glad to continue curing to as +large an extent in winter as in summer, if you could get the fish +delivered to you?-Yes. I think there are facilities all round +Shetland for that and they could sell their fish any day. It is not +for the want of a market that the men don't fish. The great barrier +is the weather. + +12,480. Would the weather be as great a barrier if the boats were +of an improved class?-The men could not have a better class of +boats than they have. + +12,481. Would decked boats not enable them to fish all the +winter?-No. + +12,482. What is the difference in that respect between Shetland +and the east coast of Scotland?-We have a heavier sea, and more +uncertain weather here. Our present boats can go out in a lull, and +some more quickly ashore when the weather gets rough; but the +heavier decked vessels could not do that. In order to fish with +decked vessels, the men would require to remain at sea in good +and bad weather. + +12,483. Would that be impracticable here?-I think so. It would +not pay. + +12,484. Would that be from want of a market?-No; it would be +because there was not enough good weather, and the men would +not catch fish enough. Some of the welled smacks have gone out +in winter, and gone up to Grimsby with their fish, and that has paid +occasionally. + +12,485. Are there vessels of that class in use in Shetland?-Yes, +several. Mr. Harrison had one up in December which succeeded +very well, and there is one out from Scalloway just now at Faroe; +but it is not considered that it will be extensively or generally +continued, the fishing is so precarious. + +12,486. Are the men unwilling to engage in the winter fishing in +any of these modes?-I think it will be very difficult to get many +men to go to it. + +12,487. In other places the winter fishing with decked vessels is +practised all winter, is it not?-On the coast of England it is. + +12,488. The men there go to the Dogger Bank mostly?-Yes. + +12,489. Is there any reason why that sort of fishing cannot be +practised in Shetland?-There are many reasons why it cannot be +done. There is the heavy sea, and the deep water, and the nature of +the fishing grounds. + +12,490. Would long-line fishing be impracticable on the banks of +Shetland?-In winter it would. It could not be done in these +vessels. + +12,495. Is that owing to the nature of the ground, or for what +reason?-It is owing to the depth of the water and the strong tides. + +12,492. Has it ever been tried to set lines from these decked +vessels?-In summer it has been tried, and it has generally failed. +It has always been discontinued. + +12,493. I believe it is necessary to set lines with rowing vessels?- +Yes; the fishermen consider that to be the safest way, after all. + +12,494. But they do sail out their lines sometimes, do they not?- +Yes; and that saves them the trouble of pulling. + +12,495. Is it only recently that that practice has been introduced?- +I think so. I have not heard of it until lately; but I believe it is now +done in consequence of larger boats being used than were in use at +one time. + +12,496. What is the amount of the poor-rate in the parish of +Sandsting?-It is 2s. 4d. on the landlord, and the same on the +tenant. + +12,497. Is not that rather above the average?-It is. In Walls it is +1s. 10d. Alexander Wallace is the inspector in Sandsting, and Mr. +Umphray is the chairman of the Board. + +12,498. Does Wallace live in Sandsting?-Yes; on the Walls road. + +12,499. How long has he been inspector?-I could not say. I think +six or eight years, or more than that. + +12,500. Where does he pay the paupers' allowances?-I think he +used to go to the parish church at one time, but latterly, I believe, +he has paid them at his own house. + +12,501. Who is the inspector in Walls?-James Georgeson. + +12,502. Does he also pay the paupers at his own house?-Yes, so +far as I know. + +12,503. Has there ever been a practice of paying them at +Reawick?-There are a few, I think five or six, in that district +whom our shopman has been in the habit of paying. Wallace +sends their pay to him, as they live five or six miles from his +(Wallace's) house. + +12,504. Are these paupers always paid in cash?-Yes. + +12,505. Are they paid in the shop?-I suppose so. There was some +inquiry about that lately. I asked the man about it, and he said he +invariably paid them in cash; but we put a stop to it, as the thing +was not considered to be regular. It had just been done to save the +inspector trouble, or to save the people from going so far for their +money. + +12,506. Have you any knowledge as to how men are employed +here for the Greenland fishery?-I am not engaged in that business +myself, but I know pretty well how the thing goes on. + +12,507. Are there any men from your district employed in that +fishery?-There are a few who go to it from some little distance +from where I live. + +12,508. Do the men employed in that fishing require a larger and +more expensive outfit than those who are employed in other +fishings or in other seafaring pursuits?-They require warmer +clothing. I think that is the only difference. + +12,509. Do you suppose that the first month's wages which a lad +going to that fishing gets is sufficient to provide him with the +necessary outfit?-Certainly not, and I know that in consequence +of that very few lads are now going to Greenland. They cannot be +fitted out now as they used to be before the new Board of Trade +regulations were issued. + +12,510. Have you that knowledge from the statements of the lads +in your neighbourhood?-Yes, I know it from the men and the lads +who go to the fishing. It is coming to be mostly men who are +taken for these voyages. + +12,511. Is that because the men have already got outfits?-Yes. +They could not take lads who are insufficiently clothed; while the +men are better clothed, and are more able to stand the severity of +the climate. That fishing used to be a nursery for our young men, +bringing them up to be able to take their position in the merchant +service; but now it is not, and cannot be. + +12,512. Do you think the result of the Board of Trade regulations +has been to prevent agents in Lerwick from giving the young men +credit for their outfits?-I think that must have been the result; and +it has prevented so many young men from being employed as there +used to be. + +12,513. Have you known of any young men going to Greenland +with insufficient outfits in consequence of that difficulty in getting +credit?-I cannot say that I have known of any particular case; but +I should suppose it was very likely to have happened. + +12,514. Do you know that, in point of fact, young men engaging to +go to Greenland cannot get any reasonable amount of credit from +an agent in Lerwick?-Yes, I know that to be the fact; and I also +know it to be the fact that there are very few young men now going +there. + +12,515. Can you tell me of any young man who has said to you +that he would have gone to Greenland if he could have got an +outfit?-No, I cannot. + +12,516. Has that ever been said to you by any young man in +Shetland?-I don't know that I ever put the question to any one. + +12,517. Has anybody made such a statement to you without you +having put the question?-No. I have asked some of the men how +it was that there were so [Page 310] very few green hands now +going to Greenland, and they said the young men and lads could +not be fitted out now as they were before,-that they could only +get one month's advance, and that if their wages were only 16s. or +20s. a month, that would only buy them a pair of boots, and they +had nothing for clothing. + +12,518. In what way did that question suggest itself to your +mind?-I think it was from noticing the fact of so many young +lads pressing in to go to Faroe. We found more lads wishing +employment at Faroe than we could find room for, and on +making inquiry I found that that was the reason. + +12,519. Why is it that the agents do not give the same credit as +they gave before?-I think it must be in consequence of the Board +of Trade regulations. + +12,520. But these regulations do not interfere directly with the +giving of credit; they only provide that the payment of wages shall +take place in presence of the superintendent at the Custom House +and shall be in cash?-I am aware of that. + +12,521. The agent has, with an honest man, the same security for +payment of his account that he had before, only the wages cannot +be retained by him at settlement?-It must be from the fact that +the wages cannot be retained, that the credit has been limited. + +12,522. Do you think it would be an expedient thing that these +young men should be allowed to incur an account for their outfit, +and that the agent furnishing that outfit should be in a position to +retain the wages due at the end of the voyage?-I would not give +an opinion upon that point. Perhaps it is better as it is. + +12,523. Do you wish to make any remarks upon the Report by +Mr. Hamilton to the Board of Trade, which was printed in the +appendix to the previous report of the Commissioners?-I think +that report is manifestly incorrect in what Mr. Hamilton says in +regard to the Shetland system generally. He says, 'Almost every +fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not +only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also +and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or +fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate +accounts in his books.' I don't know where Mr. Hamilton could +have got that information from. + +12,524. Your own firm is an exception as regards the women, +because you have no transactions with them?-It is surely not an +exception. I think it must be the rule. I don't believe that such a +system exists generally, as that of keeping separate accounts for a +husband and wife. + +12,525. But the younger members of the family may have separate +accounts, and a few of them have separate accounts even in your +business?-They have, if they are employed by us. A man may +have five or six sons, every one fishing and getting his own share +and having his own account. + +12,526. May some of these sons be as young as twelve or fourteen +years of age?-They begin about fourteen to go to the fishing, as +well as to go to the beach. It appears to me that Mr. Hamilton's +report has been rounded very much on hearsay, and on opinions +which he had formed when he was a boy. + +12,527. Was the state of things different in Shetland when he was +a boy from what it is now?-Yes, it was a good deal different; I +think we are improving. I think there are more of the fishermen +now who are free to deal as they choose. I think they have a much +greater outfit in every way for fishing, and much better returns; +and the fishermen, as a class, are living better and wearing better +than they did in those days. + +12,528. Is there anything else in the report that you wish to +correct?-I consider that the report is altogether wrong. + +12,529. I should like specific statements about that, because +gentlemen have come to contradict the report before and have +gone through it sentence by sentence?-I consider that Mr. +Hamilton was going out of his way altogether in making that +report. + +12,530. Still it might be correct, for all that?-It might be; but it +appears to have some weight as coming from the Board of Trade, +whereas Mr. Hamilton could have no opportunity of knowing these +things from personal knowledge or of judging for himself. + +12,531. The point on which he had been directed to inquire was as +to the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in +whaling vessels?-Yes; and if he had confined himself to that, he +would have been doing what was quite right; but all these general +remarks about the Shetland System are very wide of the mark, +and must have been got from hearsay, because many of them are +incorrect. He says, for instance, 'Any man who carried his custom +to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would +run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular +agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his +contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than +there are berths, he will probably never get any employment +again.' I look upon that as an ill-natured, unfounded remark. + +12,532. Was there any foundation for that in time past?-I don't +believe there was any foundation for such a statement at any time. + +12,533. Have you any personal knowledge that enables you to +contradict that statement, or have you any knowledge of the matter +different from the hearsay knowledge which you attribute to Mr. +Hamilton?-I am much better able to judge of it, because I have +been mixed up with these men every day for the last thirty years, +and if such a thing had taken place I would have heard of it. + +12,534. Have you ever made any inquiry among them as to +whether that statement was correct?-I have made the most +minute inquiries as to how they were treated, and they volunteered +statements about how they got on, and why they went to one agent +rather than to another. + +12,535. What sort of reasons did they give for that?-Of course +they had their own reasons for preferring one agent to another. +For instance one man thought he got his supplies cheaper from a +particular agent, and he went to him. + +12,536. Did the reasons they gave for preferring one agent to +another, all assume that the man got his supplies from the agent +who engaged him?-I have been speaking now of what took place +in the trade formerly. For some years back I have not heard +anything about supplies at all. They say they get their month's +advance now in money. + +12,537. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the men do get +their supplies from the agent still?-I believe they get them to a +very small extent. + +12,538. You mean to a small extent, compared with what was the +case in former times?-I believe so. + +12,539. Is that belief rounded upon the statements of the men +themselves, or is it simply from hearsay?-I have been told so by +the men. + +12,540. Have they told you that they get smaller outfits now than +they did formerly, or smaller supplies from their agents?-The +class of men who go now to that fishing are not the same as they +used to be; they do not require the supplies which the green hands +used to get. + +12,541. You mean that they do not require so large outfits?-Yes. + +12,542. But if they are men with families they probably require +much larger supplies for their families during their absence. I +suppose they get these supplies from the agents?-I know that in +some cases they do; but I know that my firm supplies many of the +families of men who go to Greenland, and they pay us in money +when they come back and have got their settlement. + +12,543. Has your firm a larger business in the way of supplying the +families of fishermen who go to Greenland than it formerly had +before these regulations of the Board of Trade were introduced?- +I think so. I think that formerly the men confined themselves more +to the agents for their supplies. + +12,544. Are you aware whether at any time the men were under +any obligation to ship with one agent more than with another for +the Greenland voyage: have you [Page 311] heard anything to that +effect from the men?-No. I never heard them speak about being +compelled in any way with regard to the Greenland trade. + +12,545. I do not speak of compulsion; but have you heard of +them being expected or obliged in any way, or of influence being +used?-I never heard of them being influenced in any way. I don't +think that was ever the practice with regard to the Greenland trade. + +12,546. Is there any other passage in the report to which you wish +to refer?-Mr. Hamilton says, 'This is merely one phase of the +truck system in Shetland, on which are also based arrangements +with the crews of coasting and home trade vessels, of the few +foreign going vessels, of the Faroe and Iceland fishing vessels, +and of the large fleet of fishing boats. Some of the seamen and +fishermen feel, and bitterly complain of, the bondage of the +system; but, as a rule, the character and habits of the natives have +become so assimilated to it, that they are either unconscious of +its existence, or are reconciled to its working, that they would +probably themselves be averse to any change; for although they +may have no option but to work for one master at such +remuneration in goods as he may see fit to give, yet they feel that +in bad seasons he will not let them starve.' That is a fearfully +overdrawn picture. + +12,547. I suppose your firm has often had occasion to make large +advances in a bad season in order to carry your fishermen +through?-Yes. + +12,548. And these advances have been repaid by the men from +the produce of the following seasons?-Yes; but I deny that +there are such hardships as are spoken of here. We have often +had to advance a fisherman for perhaps two years' rent, and he +had to remain in debt. His fishing was not sufficient to meet his +requirements. + +12,549. In that case the man would usually continue to fish for +you?-Yes. He usually continues until he has wrought off his +debt. + +12,550. Have you known men in that position who attempted to +dispose of their fish to other employers?-I cannot say that I have. + +12,551. Have they always continued with you until their debt was +wiped off?-They continued from year year at any rate. + +12,552. But they did not leave you in these circumstances?-No; +as a class, they are much too honest for that. + +12,553. Have you ever had an occasion, when a man came to you +from another employer, to become responsible to that employer +for a debt due by the fisherman to him?-No, I don't think we ever +undertook anything of that kind. + +12,554. Have you been in the converse position of obtaining +payment of a debt due to you from a fisherman who changed his +employment?-I don't recollect any case of the kind. + +12,555. Does any arrangement exist between your firm and any +other by which you undertake the debts of that firm, and they +undertake yours in such cases?-No; we have never taken +fishermen into our employment under such circumstances. Then +Mr. Hamilton says: 'The employer has unlimited opportunity of +appropriating to himself all the result of their labour, leaving to +them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from +starving.' That is a state of things which I know nothing about, +and I don't believe it exists. + +12,556. If a merchant has full power to fix the price of the fish, +and if he also fixes the price at which he sells his goods, and the +fisherman has no other place where he can get credit for the +supplies which are necessary for his existence, is it not +conceivable that that state of matters might be abused?-It is +conceivable, and there may be a few cases of that kind; but to +speak of that as being the rule, is not correct. + +12,557. Have you ever heard complaints from the men engaged in +the Greenland fishery that they could not get their wages settled +for at an earlier period?-I never heard of any difficulty in that +way. + +12,558. Have you heard them complain that the agent had +contrived to keep them in his debt?-I never heard of such a thing. +Often when they had money to pay to us, they have said they had +not been in for their wages, and that they were going; but they +never said there was any difficulty in getting it, if they only went +to Lerwick for it. + +12,559. Is all the rest of Mr. Hamilton's report correct except those +passages you have referred to?-Certainly not. I do not agree with +it at all. There is shade of truth about some things stated in it, but +it is overstated. + +12,560. Do you differ from this statement in it: 'For this purpose +they employ agents in Lerwick who get, as I am informed, little +direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what +they can make out of the earnings of the men?'-That used to be +the case. + +12,561. That means, of course, that the agents' chief profit arose +from their sales of goods to the men; and that used to be the case +formerly?-Yes. + +12,562. When did it cease to be the case?-I believe that since the +Board of Trade regulations were enforced there has been a change. + +12,563. Have you heard of any gentlemen giving up the agency in +the Greenland trade in consequence of their failure of profit from +that source?-I think Messrs. Hay & Co. have given it up; I have +not heard of any others. + +12,564. Have you any doubt at all that the principal part of these +agents' profits was derived from sales of that kind, at least +previous to 1868?-I should think that that is quite correct, if you +speak of several years ago. + +12,565. The price for the fish caught in the summer fishing is fixed +according to the current price for dry fish at the end of the season. +How is that current price ascertained?-We know how much +green fish make one cwt. of dry. It varies according to the size of +the fish, and their original quality. The average is about 21/4 cwt. +of green fish to one cwt. of dry. + +12,566. Is that the average which is taken in calculating the price +every year, or is there sometimes a different average taken?-That +is taken generally. It varies a little, according to the fish being +very thin or fat at the time they are caught; but 21/4 cwt. is a very +fair estimate taking one time with another. We know how many +tons of wet fish we have at the station, and we know how many +tons of dry fish we get from that place. I have seen the proportion +as high as 21/2 cwt. + +12,567. The produce of dry fish at one station might differ from +the same quantity of wet at another?-Yes, it will never be the +same. + +12,568. Then, in calculating the amount in order to settle with the +men, do you take it overhead at all your stations?-We take our +chance of it varying. + +12,569. You do not settle with the men at one station according to +the actual quantity of dry fish produced from the green fish +delivered there?-No. We have one price for all the season. + +12,570. How do you ascertain the current price of dry fish in +order to settle with the men? Is it from your own sales, or do you +communicate with other merchants?-We are not very extensively +engaged in buying the fish green from the men. + +12,571. Do you not buy sixty or eighty tons annually?-Yes; but +we generally make a calculation for ourselves. We don't always +pay the current price. + +12,572. Is it not your bargain to pay the current price?-That is +the understanding with the men; but we have sometimes paid the +current price, and sometimes we have paid more. We don't bind +ourselves by what others pay. + +12,573. Did you ever pay less than the current price?-No; but we +have sometimes paid more. + +12,574. The men have no voice at all in settling what the price +shall be: it is left entirely to the merchants, is it not?-I think it is +left very much to the merchants with regard to the green fish. + +12,575. Is the competition for fish sufficient here to bring the price +up to the highest figure?-Yes; there is no fear of that. + +12,576. Are you prepared to say that any complaints [Page 312] +which the fishermen make to the effect that they do not get the +fair current price which they ought to get for their green fish, +as regulated by the current price at the end of the season, are +unfounded?-We very seldom have such complaints. + +12,577. But if there were such complaints, do you say they are +unfounded?-I think the fishermen, generally are very fairly paid +for green fish. + +12,578. Are there not two prices for fish exported from Shetland, +according as they are sent to one market or to another?-There are +many prices. Although a current price is fixed, there may be a +considerable difference in what the curer realizes. If a curer +chooses to take the chance of consigning to a certain market, he +may get more or he may get less than if he chose to sell here at +what is the shipping price. + +12,579. If a curer sends his fish to the Spanish market, for +example, he may get a much higher price than by selling to a +purchaser at home?-He may get a higher price. + +12,580. Does he generally do so?-He generally does, because it is +the best fish that are selected for that market; and if I choose to +reserve a certain portion of any cure and take my chance of how +the market will be going after Christmas, I may get more or I may +get less. I may speculate in that way as I like; but every curer does +not get the same price for his fish, although there is a current price +fixed. + +12,581. How is that current price fixed?-I cannot explain it +very well. There is generally a great fight for about a fortnight +between the purchasers from the south and the merchants here. +The south-country buyers come down here, and sometimes they +come to terms at once but sometimes they go away without +fixing if they cannot agree upon the terms. About the month of +September, however, the price generally comes to a figure at last +at which the bulk of the fish go. + +12,582. At that time are there communications between the +fish-curers here upon the subject?-Yes; they consult together +as to the offers they have, and whether they are to hold for a higher +price, or take what they can get. + +12,583. Is it usual that the bulk of the fish is sold at nearly the +same figure?-As a rule, the bulk of the fish go at one price. + +12,584. And the current price, according to which the men are +paid, is fixed by that?-Yes. + +12,585. Do you think it would be possible to introduce in the +fishing trade here a system of paying at short intervals for the fish +delivered?-I think it would be quite impossible. We would be +very thankful if we could do so. We would be quite ready to pay +our own men in cash the same as we pay all the Englishmen. We +get large quantities of fish from English vessels, for which we pay +cash; and we would be quite as ready to pay our own men in cash +as them. + +12,586. Why is that impossible?-There are many reasons for it. +Our men deliver their fish at a great number of little stations all +round the islands, and we could not have a person at each of these +stations to pay them, without a considerable expense. That is the +case with the curers generally. + +12,587. You have only two stations besides Reawick?-We have +more stations than that for receiving fish. + +12,588. Would the factor who receives the fish not be quite +competent to pay the men at short intervals?-Sometimes he +might be there for that purpose, and sometimes not; but the +difficulty would be with the men themselves. They would not be +satisfied to have a price fixed then. + +12,589. But part of the price might be paid as a bounty, as it were, +and the balance might be payable according to the current price?- +Such an arrangement might be made; but I don't see any object it +could serve because, if our men wish an advance of money during +the fishing season at present, they can get it. If they wish money to +pay for anything they require while the fishing is going on, we +make no difficulty in giving them that advance, because we know +they are delivering fish which will cover it. + +12,590. Would not the principal difficulty in the way of such a +system be the necessity under which the men are of getting +advances in goods or cash during the season? Would they be able +to hold on till the fortnightly or monthly payment without getting +advances?-They only require a very small proportion of their +fishing, either in money or in goods, during the season. The great +proportion of it has to be reserved for their annual payments of +rent and poor-rates, and various other things of that sort. The great +difficulty would be with the men: they would not like the system, +because they would feel that they would be losers by it. + +12,591. How would they be losers?-Because no curer would risk +such a high price in the summer season as he is ready to pay the +men in the autumn, when he sees what he can afford to pay. + +12,592. But when a certain amount of fish is delivered, it is quite +plain that something will be due to the fishermen at the end of the +season: would it not be possible then to fix a minimum price, +below which there could be no reasonable expectation of the fish +falling at the end of the season, and the men might be paid +according to that minimum price?-That would only increase +trouble, without any earthly advantage, so far as I can see. + +12,593. The men would have the money in their own hands?-The +men have the money in their own hands as it is. I believe that +from all respectable curers they get money for any purpose they +ask it for. + +12,594. But they have to go and ask for it specially?-Certainly. + +12,595. And perhaps they have to ask for it as a favour?-Well, +it is a favour. The money is not due for the fish. They have +delivered the article, but it is in advance. + +12,596. You mean the bargain is that the fish are to be delivered as +caught, but not to be payable till the end of the season; so that the +mistake, if there is one is in making that bargain?-I don't see that +there is any mistake in it. + +12,597. Do you not think the fisherman would be wiser to make +the bargain to get his money paid as he wants it, instead of being +obliged, when he does want it in the course of the season, to ask +for it as a favour?-Such a system could not work, because in +these boats there are certain expenses which must come off the +whole crew. They may have hired men along with them, and they +could not divide each day's fishing or each week's fishing, without +a great deal of trouble and confusion. + +12,598. Do you think the present arrangements between the curers +and the men are so complicated that it is necessary to have only +one settlement for the year?-I think the present system is the best +that can be devised. It would be a complicated system if weekly +payments were made; but there is no complication as it is at +present. + +12,599. Do you think the system that has been suggested would +require too much accounting?-Yes; and the men could not take +the time to do it, without being great losers. + +12,600. Do you receive a large portion of your annual cure from +the English boats which fish for you?-Yes. I suppose we receive +about one-third of our cure from them. All the men who fish for +us in these boats are paid wages, and they have a small allowance, +called score money, on the fish which each man takes. + +12,601. Do you buy their fish green at a fixed price?-Yes, at a +price fixed with the master or owner, usually before the vessel +comes out. + +12,602. That price is a standing price for the whole season?-Yes, +we take our chance. + +12,603. And the owner also takes his chance?-Yes. + +12,604. Do you think the men in these boats prosecute the fishing +as vigorously and successfully as those in the Shetland boats, who +are paid on a different principle?-They prosecute it with great +rigour. Generally they are thoroughbred fishermen. They have all +been apprenticed to the fishing when they were boys of 8 or 10 +years of age. + +12,605. Can you say that the practice which prevails in the +Shetland boats produces a greater amount of energy in carrying +on the fishing, and results in a [Page 313] larger capture of fish +than in the case of these Grimsby boats?-I know that the Shetland +boats catch more fish when competing with the others. + +12,606. Are they equipped in the same way, or is there any +difference in the style of boat or of equipment which would +account for that?-They are very much the same class of vessel +as to size and equipment. + +12,607. Are the English boats in any way superior?-No, there is +very little difference. Some of the smacks we have are the very +same, having been built by the same builders. I am speaking now +of the Faroe fishing, and these English vessels are all of the same +size and description. + +12,608. Which system do you think the best of the two?-The best +for the Shetland fishermen is to have their share. Our men are +better paid than the Englishmen. + +12,609. Do they take more from their shares than the Englishmen +take from their wages, as a rule?-Yes. I know the amount of +their earnings. + +12,610. I have been requested to ask you this question: In what +number of boats, fishing at one station to different curers, would +these men be willing to accept the value of a week's fishing, +probably amounting to £20, and carry to their homes by sea, or +undertake the subdivision of them more frequently than once +annually, that at present?-I think I have answered that, or almost +that question already. I have already said that I believe the men +would refuse to adopt that system. + +12,611. Is that in consequence of the trouble it would entail in +dividing the fish?-Yes, and the time taken up with it. Besides, +they don't require it. + +12,612. How do you account for the English boats coming north to +compete with the Shetland crews, although they receive less for +their fishing than the Shetland fishermen do?-They are fishing all +the year round, and they come north to fill up their time when +fresh fish do not pay them on their own coasts. + +12,613. Fishing is their only employment?-Yes. + +12,614. You think it is not likely to become the only employment +of Shetland fishermen?-Not generally. + +12,615. And you think it is not expedient that it should?-I don't +think it is. I think they all require something to do on the land as +well. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, examined. + +12,616. Are you a fisherman and tenant in Skerries?-I am. + +12,617. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Bruce. + +12,618. Do you pay your rent to him?-No, to Mr. Adie. + +12,619. Is he your tacksman?-Yes. + +12,620. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Adie. + +12,621. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie, or can you engage to +fish with anybody you like?-We are bound to fish for Mr. Adie. + +12,622. How do you know that?-Because Mr. Adie told us we +were not at liberty to fish for any other man except him. + +12,623. When did he tell you that?-I cannot state the date +exactly, but it has been since I commenced to fish there, eighteen +years ago. That was the time when the agreement was made last. + +12,624. What agreement?-That we were to deliver all our +produce, fish, and every other thing, to him, and to no one else. + +12,625. If you chose to fish for anybody else, what was the penalty +to be?-That we were to be removed from our crofts. + +12,626. Has any person been removed for fishing to another than +Mr. Adie?-None, for there have been no offenders. + +12,627. How many people are in these lands?-There are almost +130 of a population, old and young. There are six boats belonging +to the islands that fish for Mr. Adie. + +12,628. Do a number of people come there in the summer time +from other places to fish?-Yes. They fish both to Mr. Adie and +to Mr. Robertson. These are the only two who employ men there. + +12,629. Has Mr. Robertson a station and a shop there?-Yes; he +has a store for supplying his fishermen. + +12,630. Is it open all the year round?-No, only during the fishing +season. + +12,631. Where do you get your supplies?-From Mr. Adie's shop +at Skerries. It is open all the year round, and is kept by Robert +Umphray. + +12,632. Do you pay for your supplies at the time you get them, or +do you settle for them at the end of the year?-Sometimes at the +end of the year, and sometimes not for fifteen months. + +12,633. How does it happen that you are sometimes fifteen months +in settling?-We live in an isolated place, and Mr. Adie's people +cannot sometimes get conveniently exactly at the twelvemonth's +end, but they make arrangements to come when they please. + +12,634. Is it sometimes late in the spring before they come to +settle?-Sometimes we have not settled until March, but the usual +time is at Martinmas. + +12,635. Have you any objection to that state of things?-The only +objection I have to it is that we do not have our freedom to fish to +the person who will pay us best, and we should also like to be able +to get our goods from the best market we can, and at the cheapest +price we can., + +12,636. Can you not get your goods from any market you please +just now?-No. + +12,637. Why?-Because we cannot get our pay in hand. + +12,638. Can you not get cash from Mr. Adie or from Mr. Umphray +when you ask for it?-Yes, if we have it to get. + +12,639. If you want supplies during the season, before the +settlement comes, do you get them?-Yes, we can get our +supplies then, as far as our earnings are likely to cover them. + +12,640. Have you ever been restricted?-Yes; they only allow us +to go so far as our earnings are likely to pay, and no further. + +12,641. Have you ever been refused supplies?-Yes. I cannot give +the date of that, but I have been put on an allowance both of meal +and other things. + +12,642. Did you get a certain amount of goods from the store each +week?-Yes, each Saturday night. + +12,643. How often have you been put upon that allowance?-That +is always done, unless we can clear ourselves in Mr. Adies book. + +12,644. When were you last put upon an allowance?-In 1869. + +12,645. Was that a year of scarcity?-In our isolated place there is +generally scarcity, because our crops are scanty. + +12,646. Are they not sufficient to keep your families all the year +round?-No. + +12,647. Therefore you have every year to buy a certain amount of +meal from Mr. Adie?-Yes, we have generally to buy about six +months' provisions from him. + +12,648. Were you put on an allowance in 1869 because you were +in debt?-Yes + +12,649. What allowance was made to you then?-Three pecks of +meal a week; and there are seven of us in the family. + +12,650. Was that less than you required?-Of course it was, but I +could get no more. + +12,651. How much do you use when you are not upon an +allowance?-I could not say exactly, because when I can buy it +for myself I take no notice. I think, however, we would require +about five pecks a week. + +12,652. Did you find the allowance of three pecks to be too small +for you?-Of course we did. + +12,653. Was the rest of the island put upon an allowance at that +time?-All the indebted men were. + +12,654. Were there many of them?-Most of the men in Skerries, +in the fishing line were in debt at that time. + +12,655. At what season of the year was that?-In summer. + +[Page 314] + +12,656. Were there a number of men at that time in the island who +did not live there?-Yes, a great number. + +12,657. Were they put on an allowance too?-I could not say as to +that. I can only speak of those who live constantly in the island, +and more especially myself. + +12,658. Do you not think it was quite reasonable, that if a person +to whom you were due money was to continue to make you further +advances, he should use his own discretion as to the amount of +these advances?-Of course, if I got the goods at the market price. +I think I ought to have got my meal, or whatever I was requiring, at +the market price in Lerwick, adding something for freight. + +12,659. Did you not get it at that rate?-No; I found that I could +buy meal 7s. per sack cheaper in Lerwick than in Skerries; and +from that down to the lowest thing we got, it was generally +charged one-third more than it could be got for in Lerwick or any +place near to it. I have paid for a sack of meal at Mr. Adie's +station at Skerries, when I could have got it from any merchant in +Lerwick at 50s. or 51s. + +12,660. That was a difference of 10s.: when did you do that?-I +could not say, but I have done it. I think it was about four years +back. + +12,661. Was that before 1869, when you were put on an +allowance?-Yes. + +12,662. Were you in debt at that time?-Yes. + +12,663. Did you get an advance of a sack of meal at a time, and +were charged 61s. for it?-Yes. + +12,664. Where could you have got it in Lerwick for 50s. or 51s.?- +From Mr. John Robertson, senior. I got it from him at that, and +paid the cash down. + +12,665. Did you get another sack from Mr. Adie at the same +time?-Yes, at the same date. + +12,666. Did you get both of these supplies within month of each +other?-Within a month or two. + +12,667. Have you any pass-book or any paper to show that?-No. + +12,668. Did you get a receipt from Mr. Robertson for the +money?-No. + +12,669. At what season of the year was that?-In January. + +12,670. And you think that was about four years ago?-Yes. + +12,671. That would probably be about January 1868?-I think so, +but I cannot exactly say. + +12,672. Did you buy the meal from Mr. Robertson in your own +name?-One part in my own name, and the other part in the name +of my father, John Hutchison. + +12,673. Who gave the order to Mr. Robertson?-I did. + +12,674. Did you tell him that one half of the meal was for yourself +and one half for your father?-Yes. + +12,675. Do you know whether the purchase was entered in his +books?-I cannot say, for I paid the cash down. + +12,676. Do you know anything about the quality of that meal?-It +was just about the same quality as we could get from Mr. Adie. + +12,677. Was it before or after you got the meal from Mr. +Robertson, that you bought the sack at 61s. from Mr. Umphray?- +It was after, about two months after at the furthest. + +12,678. Did you say anything to him about the price when you got +it?-I did; and Mr. Umphray told me he must sell it at the invoice +price which his master sent to him. + +12,679. Did you take the meal at that price?-I was obliged to do +so, when I could not make a better of it. + +12,680. Could you not have gone and got some more from Mr. +Robertson?-I could; but I had no expectation of having anything +at the end of the time with which to pay him. + +12,681. Did you think Mr. Robertson would not have given it to +you on credit?-I don't think it, for I could not have asked it. + +12,682. Do you think Mr. Robertson would have given you the +meal as cheap if you had been buying it on credit?-He would +have given it to me cheaper on credit than Mr. Adie did. + +12,683. Is there any other time that you remember, when you +bought meal or any other goods at Adie's shop, and when you +could have got them cheaper elsewhere?-That has happened +every time. + +12,684. But did you ever try at what price you could get your +goods at another place in the same way as you did at that time?- +I have done so at times. We can get as many sillock hooks at +Messrs. Hay's shop, at Simbister in Whalsay, for 1d. as we can get +beside us for 11/2d. + +12,685. Do you generally buy your sillock hooks at Whalsay?- +No; we generally go for them to the store where we are supplied. I +could also get washing soda in Lerwick for 1d., and we pay 11/2d. +for it at Skerries. I bought 14 lbs. of it in Lerwick yesterday at 1d. +a lb. The last I bought at Skerries was about two months ago, and +it was marked down to me at 11/2d. If I were buying as much as 14 +lbs. at a time in Skerries, I would get no discount upon it; I would +still be charged 11/2d. per lb. + +12,686. Do many of the people in Skerries go for their supplies to +other places?-No; they all go to Adie's store for them. + +12,687. Why do they do that when the prices are so high as you +say?-Because they are bound so far to do it, in this way: that they +fish for him, and all their earnings go to him, and they must go to +the store for whatever supplies they require. + +12,688. Do you mean that they are obliged to get their supplies on +credit, and that they have credit nowhere else?-They cannot have +credit anywhere else until they see whether they have any money +to get, and then they can come to Lerwick or any other place with +their money; but they cannot do that at any other time. + +12,689. Are you at liberty to sell the produce of your farm to any +person you please?-No. We are under the restriction to take it all +to Mr. Adie's store. + +12,690. Who told you that?-Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor. + +12,691. Is there anybody else you could sell it to?-No; except in +the summer time, when Mr. Robertson's man is there. + +12,692. Have any of you offered to sell to him?-Yes. + +12,693. Have you been prevented from doing so?-Yes; we have +been prevented in this way, that we were obliged to go to Mr. Adie +with all that we had, or else we would have been put out of our +crofts. + +12,694. Did anybody ever interfere with you selling to Mr. +Robertson?-If it had been known that it had been done, they +would have interfered; but no man, so far as I know, ever put the +produce of his farm or of his fishing past Mr. Adie. + +12,695. Do you know of any person being fined for selling to Mr. +Robertson's man?-No; but I know that my father was fined 2s. +6d. for selling a dozen of eggs to a man at the lighthouse station. +That was in 1858. + +12,696. Was that by Mr. Umphray?-Yes. + +12,697. Was he Mr. Adie's factor at that time?-Yes. + +12,698. Do you know of anybody having been fined in the same +way since?-No; except men going to Greenland, or going any +other way where they think they can be better. They are fined in +this way, that every man, young and old, on the island, is obliged +to fish for Mr. Adie. + +12,699. But if a man goes to Greenland he is not on the island?- +No; and it is for that reason he is fined. + +12,700. But if he is not on the island, how can he be fined?-He +comes back in the winter. + +12,701. Who has been fined in that way?-I was fined, for one, in +1855. + +12,702. Have you been at the Greenland fishing since that?-No. + +12,703. Have you been away from the island since?-No. + +12,704. Why have you not gone since?-Because I became a +tenant of Mr. Adie then, and I had to stick by that and fish for him. + +12,705. Were you not a tenant of his at the time when you were +fined?-No. + +[Page 315] + +12,706. Then why did you pay the fine?-I must either pay the +fine, or my father would have been warned away for me. + +12,707. Were you told that your father would be put away if you +did not pay the fine?-Yes. + +12,708. How much did you pay?-£2. + +12,709. To whom did you pay it?-To Mr. Adie himself. + +12,710. Did you get a receipt for it?-No. + +12,711. Was it put down to your account?-Yes. + +12,712. Was it ever repaid to you?-It was never repaid to me, but +these fines were repaid to some others. It was repaid to Andrew +Williamson, for one. There were six men belonging to Skerries +who went to Greenland in 1855, and they were all fined £2 each. + +12,713. That is a very old story. Did it ever happen again?-No. + +12,714. Have men gone to Greenland from Skerries since then?- +Yes. + +12,715. And they have not been fined?-No. + +12,716. How did they escape?-I cannot say. + +12,717. They just had their liberty, and nothing was said to +them?-Nothing. + +12,718. Do you think the fines imposed on these six men served as +a warning?-I don't think so. + +12,719. That did not prevent other men from going to +Greenland?-No, not for a few years back. + +12,720. But did it do so at the time?-No; some men went to +Greenland immediately after that, and were not fined. I think the +fines were imposed on these six men in order to try to stop them +from going there; but it did not have that effect, and it was not +attempted again. + +12,721. Why did you not get back your fine, when it was repaid to +Williamson and the other men?-I never asked it back. + +12,722. Have you or anybody else been fined for that, or for selling +your goods to other people, since 1855?-No. + +12,723. Except on that one occasion in 1858, when your father was +fined for selling eggs?-Yes. + +12,724. Can you sell your eggs to the lighthouse keepers now, or to +any person you please?-Yes. + +12,725. You are not bound now to sell them to Mr. Umphray?- +Not so far as I know. + +12,726. Have you sold eggs to Mr. Robertson's man within the last +year or two?-Yes. + +12,727. How do you sell your beasts?-To Mr. Adie. + +12,728. Can you not sell them to any person you like?-Yes; but +the cash must be returned to him. + +12,729. You mean the cash must be handed to because you must +pay your debts?-Yes. + +12,730. Is there anything else you wish to say about Skerries?- +Nothing, except that I may state, on behalf of all the men who are +in the town now from Skerries, that they would like their freedom +to fish for any man who would pay them best, and be allowed to +get whatever they require from the cheapest market. + +12,731. Supposing you had your freedom, is there one to whom +you could sell your fish for a better price than Mr. Adie allows?- +There are no others at the present time, so far as I know; but +opposition might arise if there were more buyers than one, and if +we had our freedom. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, PETER HENDERSON, examined. + +12,732. Are you a fisherman and farmer in Skerries?-I am. + +12,733. How long have you been there?-This is the second year +since I came there, but I was born in Skerries. I have been living +in the North Isles for about twelve years. + +12,734. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes. + +12,735. How do you know that?-I just know it in the same way +that the rest of the tenants know it. He is our tacksmaster, and of +course we have to fish for him. + +12,736. When you took your bit of land two years ago from him, +were you told that you must fish for him?-Yes. Mr. Umphray +told me so. + +12,737. Did Mr. Umphray let the land and agree with you about +it?-Yes. + +12,738. He told you at the time that you must fish for Mr. Adie, +and you entered into that agreement, quite understanding what it +was?-Yes. + +12,739. Do you take your supplies from Mr. Adie's shop, and +settle up every year at settling time?-Yes. I have always had a +balance to get then. + +12,740. Did you get money besides that in the course of the season +if you wanted it?-Yes, when I asked for it. + +12,741. Did you ask for much?-No; perhaps for £1 or so, when I +required it. + +12,742. Were you at liberty to buy your supplies at any other place +you liked?-Yes, if I had money to give for them. + +12,743. Could you have got money?-I did not ask it for that. + +12,744. If you had asked for money with which to go and buy +your meal and tea in Lerwick, would you have got it from Mr. +Umphray?-I don't know that. If he had known it was my +intention to go with it to other parties, I don't think he would have +given it to me, because he would have wanted for himself any +profit there was upon it. + +12,745. Have you any reason for supposing so?-I have only my +own reasons for supposing it, and I would think so. + +12,746. Has he ever told you that he expects you to buy your goods +at his shop?-No. He has never said anything about that. + +12,747. Has he ever had any occasion to tell you that?-No. + +12,748. Do you think he would tell you that if you went and got +your goods in Lerwick or in Whalsay?-I don't know. + +12,749. Have you ever been fined for selling your produce to +anybody else or for fishing for another than Mr. Adie?-No. + +12,750. Do you want to have liberty to fish for another?-Of +course we should like to fish for any one who would pay us most. + +12,751. But you came voluntarily to Skerries two years ago, +knowing that you could fish only for Mr. Adie there + +12,752. Why do you object to that now?-I don't object to it, only +I should like if I could get more for my produce. + +12,753. Do you think you could get more for it from any one +else?-I don't think I could get more for it at the present time, +because Mr. Adie is paying as high price as any other man. + +12,754. Why did you go to Skerries?-Circumstances led me to +go. I could not keep the land I was on, because the rent was too +high. That was in Fetlar. + +12,755. Do you get your land cheaper in Skerries?-I have only +half a house and land in Skerries, but I could not get that chance in +Fetlar. I had a heavy tack of land there, and I was not able to pay +for it. + +12,756. Do you know anything about the price and quality of +provisions in Skerries?-They are dearer than in Lerwick. I +bought a boll of meal in Lerwick yesterday from R. & C. +Robertson's, to take home with me, and paid 19s. 6d. for it, +while the price in Skerries just now is 23s. I have not bought so +much there lately, but I know by the peck price that that is the +price of it. I bought a peck lately, and it was marked down to me +at 1s. 4d. + +12,757. Would it not have been less if you had bought a boll?-It +might have been a little less, but not much. + +12,758. To whom do you sell your cattle?-To Mr. Adie. + +12,759. Do all the people in Skerries sell their cattle to him?- +They generally go to the roup at Voe, and have a chance of selling +them there. + +[Page 316] + +12,760. Do they take their cattle or ponies all the way to Voe?- +There are no ponies in Skerries. + +12,761. Are you paid in money for your cattle at the time of the +roup?-Yes, if we want it. Of course Mr. Adie does not like to +pay us the whole of it in money if we are in his debt, but if a man +is clear he gets whatever he wants. + +12,762. If a man is clear does he always get his money down, or +is it put into his account?-If he wants to leave it in Mr. Adie's +hands he will get interest for his money, but if he wants the money +itself it will be paid down to him. + +12,763. What are the usual earnings in the summer fishing?-They +vary according as we are successful or not. Last, summer I think I +had £18, 6s. for my fish from April to Lammas. + +12,764. Did you catch some fish in the winter and early spring, +before that?-Very little. I got perhaps 30s. for them. + +12,765. Is the fishing of the Skerries men in summer as large as +that of the men who come from the mainland?-Yes. Most of the +Skerries boats are quite as well fished as the boats that come from +the mainland. + +12,766. Had you as much money to get as most of the mainland +men?-I believe I had. I don't think there were any who were +much above me. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, recalled. + +12,767. How much did you get for your summer fishing last +year?-£17, 19s. + +12,768. Was that as much as most of the mainland men got, so far +as you know?-Yes. I don't know what money they actually got; +but I know the number of cwts. they took, and I know that none of +them had much more than me. The highest of the mainland boats +had 252 cwts., while our boat, which was manned entirely by +Skerries men, had 246 cwts. 1 qr. 18 lbs. The mainland boat I +have mentioned was one of Mr. John Robertson's. Ours was the +highest fished boat belonging to Mr. Adie at Skerries. The six +boats belonging to Skerries had all about the same take. + +12,769. Do you think the Skerries boats generally had a smaller +number of cwts. than the mainland boats?-In general they had +more. + +12,770. Was that because they lost less time in coming and going +to the fishing?-Yes. The Skerries men had the advantage of +Friday afternoon and Saturday above the Lunnasting men, who +went home at the end of every week on the Friday afternoon, and +did not return until Monday about twelve o'clock. + +12,771. You had thus a longer time at the fishing than the +Lunnasting men. How do you account for it that you had not +one-third more fish than they?-I just account for it by chance +or fortune. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, DAVID ANDERSON, examined. + +12,772. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am. I have been there +since I was a child. + +12,773. Do you hold a bit of land?-Yes. + +12,774. Do you consider yourself bound to fish for Mr. Adie?- +Yes, the same as any other. + +12,775. Were you told so?-I was not; but my father was when he +signed his agreement for the land, about twenty years ago. I have +the half of the farm with him. + +12,776. Have you ever been fined or found fault with for fishing to +another, or for selling the produce of your farm to any one else +than Mr. Adie?-Never. + +12,777. I suppose there has been no occasion to do so?-No. + +12,778. Have you ever sold fish, or eggs, or butter, or cattle to any +one except Mr. Adie?-No. + +12,779. Have you always got as good a price from him as you +could have got anywhere else?-I usually got the currency. + +12,780. Do you think you would have been better off if you had +had liberty to deal with another?-I don't know that I would. + +12,781. Have you any wish for a change?-No. + +12,782. Are you content as you are?-Yes. + +12,783. Do you think the evidence of the two previous witnesses +was correct with regard to the price and quality of the goods at +Skerries?-Quite correct. + +12,784. Are the goods dearer at Skerries than they are +elsewhere?-Yes. + +12,785. But you have no wish for a change, and are quite content +to go on paying the higher prices?-I am merely content to fish for +Mr. Adie as well as for another; but I think the prices which he +charges for his goods in the shop are far too dear. + +12,786. But you are not bound to take all your goods from his +shop?-No, not if I had the money. + +12,787. Do you not get the money at settling time?-Yes, at +settling time I do; but hardly as much as will keep me going for +a twelvemonth, and I must go to him for some supplies. + +12,788. Do you not get enough money at settling time to carry you +on for two or three months?-Yes. + +12,789. After that could you not get credit from any other shop +where you could get your goods cheaper?-I have no doubt I could +if I knew that I could pay my account at the twelvemonth's end. + +12,790. But if you had credit at another shop where you could get +your supplies cheaper, and if you got no credit from him, you +could get all your money from him at settlement, instead of having +part of it in supplies?-I could, but we have our rent to pay to him +annually. In the meantime we might have a good fishing or a bad +fishing, as Providence sends it. If we had a good fishing, we might +have enough money to pay the men from whom we had got credit; +but if not, we would not have plenty of money and then how could +we pay our accounts? + +12,791. Does not Mr. Adie take the same chance with you?-Yes. + +12,792. You might have no money to pay him for the credit he has +given you?-That is quite true. + +12,793. Therefore he has to wait for payment just as another +merchant would have to wait for payment, if you get your goods +on credit from him?-Yes. + +12,794. Then why do you think that another merchant would not +give you credit?-There is no doubt we would get plenty of credit. + +12,795. Have you ever compared the prices of goods at Skerries +with what you could get them for at any other place?-Yes; and +everything is dearer there than it is in Lerwick. For instance, +cotton is always from 2d. to 21/2d. a yard dearer at Skerries than at +Lerwick. I have bought cotton of the same quality at both places +for oiling, and I found there was that difference in the price. Then +last year I bought a sack of meal in Lerwick for 42s., and we were +paying 46s. in Skerries for it at that time. It was in February last +year that I bought it in Lerwick, from Mr. Charles Robertson, and I +bought some in Skerries in April or May. I think the freight to +Skerries is 8d. a sack. We generally get it conveyed by Mr. John +Robertson's packet when we buy it in Lerwick, and I think his +charge for it is 8d. + +12,796. Were these two purchases of meal of the same quality?- +Just about the same. + + +Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ALEXANDER HUMPHRAY, examined. + +12,797. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am. + +12,798. You are not a tenant yourself?-No. My father is a tenant, +and I live with him. + +[Page 317] + +12,799. Do you fish to Mr. Adie?-Yes. + +12,800. Are you not at liberty to fish for any other person?-I +don't know. I am in my father's boat, and therefore I cannot get +clear. I would like to oblige Mr. Adie as far as possible by going +in his boat; but if we have fish to sell, and if there is another +merchant in Skerries who would buy the fish, and perhaps give +us 3d. or 6d. per cwt. more for them, we cannot sell them to him. +We must give them all to Mr. Adie. + +12,801. How do you know that?-Because we have seen it. + +12,802. When did you see it?-About four years ago. There was +another merchant there, who was giving more for the fish, but I +could not leave the boat and go to him when the other men in the +boat were bound to give their fish to Mr. Adie. + +12,803. Did you think you were free at that time?-I did not know. +I thought Mr. Adie could pay as much as any other man for fish, +but he would not do it; and I could not take my fish out of the boat +and sell them to another man when all the other men were selling +their fish to Mr. Adie. It would not have looked right. + +12,804. Who was the other merchant?-Mr. John Hughson, Yell. +He was offering 3d. per cwt. more, and yet we could not give him +our fish. + +12,805. Did you try to take your fish away to him?-I did not try. +I would have liked to have done it, but the fish had been weighed +before I could get my share, and it would not have looked well to +have taken them away. + +12,806. Did you speak about that at the time?-Yes, I spoke about +it to Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor, and he said we must give +our fish to him, as we were bound to do so. + +12,807. Have you ever been at Faroe or Greenland?-I have been +fishing to Mr. Adie at Skerries all along. + +12,808. Were you employed as a beach boy there at one time?- +Yes, for two years. That was five years ago. The regular fee then +was £3 for three-fourths of the year, and £4 for a splitter. + +12,809. When you were engaged as a beach boy, did you get most +of your payment in supplies?-Yes. + +12,810. You were settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; and I +was buying their goods at the same time. + +12,811. How much of your fee did you get at the end of the +year?-I got £1 the first year. My father did as much for me as +he could, so that I did not require to buy meal from him. I got +about £1 at the end of the second year also. + +12,812. When you were a beach boy, could you not get your cash +in hand if you asked for it in advance in the course of the year?-I +know we might have got 1s. or 2s. to serve a particular purpose, +but no more. + +12,813. Were you expected to take it out in supplies?-Yes. + +12,814. If you had asked it by the week, would you have got it?- +No; they said they would not give it until the end of the season, +and it was fixed then according to the amount of fish that had been +taken. + +12,815. Was not your beach fee a uniform sum, whatever kind of +fishing there was?-No; there was a sum fixed at the beginning of +the year, and then at the end of the season they gave us what they +liked. + +12,816. Is that the practice still?-Yes. + +12,817. If it is a good fishing, the beach fee is fixed higher?-Yes. + +12,818. And you think it is always higher in proportion to the +success of the fishing?-Yes; and according to the number of +years you have been at the work. + +12,819. How many beach boys and men are employed at Mr. +Adie's station in Skerries?-There are usually about six boys and +two splitters. In some years there are eight, and I have seen as few +as three and four. They settle with us at Skerries, in Mr. Adie's +house there, not in the shop. They brought the books over from +Voe. + +12,820. When you were settled with at the end of the year, were +you asked if you wanted anything?-No. + +12,821. You were paid the money?-Yes, whatever I had to get. If +I was due £1 or £10, there was 1s. per pound of interest charged +against me, and that was done with every one in Skerries. I knew +a man who was due £14 last year, and he had to pay 14s., but he +cleared himself this year. If a man's debt is above £40, that is £2 a +year he has to pay, and they never can get out of debt. + +12,822. Are there many men who are due above £40, and who +never get out of debt?-As far as I can learn, there is one. + +12,823. How do you know that he never will get out of debt?- +Unless better times come, I don't know how he can. He will not +be able to do it with the present fishings. + +12,824. Has he been long in debt in that way?-I believe he has +been for a good while. Sometimes the debt may be £1 more or £1 +less but the interest is always charged. + +12,825. Have you sometimes had a balance to get at the end of the +year?-Yes; sometimes I may have had £5 or £6 to get, and +sometimes nothing. + +12,826. When you have a balance of that kind to get, does Mr. +Umphray never ask you if you want any goods?-He never says +anything. We just please ourselves. I would never take anything +from the shop at Skerries if I could get it in Lerwick, because +everything is overpriced there. For instance, there is soap and +soda. You cannot get a bit of soap there under 6d. a lb., and soda +is 11/2d., while here it is 1d. Everything I could mention is dearer +there than here. Sugar is 5d. and 6d. there, and I know that in +Lerwick we can get as good for 5d. as we get there for 6d. If we +were paid money every time we come on shore with our fish, or +every time we want it, we would be able to get our things very +much cheaper from other places. + +12,827. Are you sure the sugar which you pay 6d. for in Skerries is +not better than you would get for 5d. here?-I don't think it is. +We pay 7d. for hard sugar there, and we can get the same kind for +6d. here. + +12,828. Would you not have a long way to go from Skerries in +order to get your goods cheaper, even although you had your +money in your hands?-There is a packet going to Whalsay every +week, and goods are almost as cheap there as in Lerwick. They +are far cheaper than in Skerries, and it is the same freight to +Whalsay. + +12,829. I suppose it is not very easy to get goods carried to +Skerries?-Unless from Whalsay it is not very easy. We can +get them quarterly; but we could get them every week by the +packet to Whalsay, by sending a letter to Lerwick, and then we +could get them brought to Skerries when we had a chance. + +12,830. Does Mr. Robertson's packet only go in the summer +season?-Yes; but the Commissioners' mail packet comes every +week to Whalsay, and any of us could go over there and bring +whatever small thing we wanted. + +<Adjourned>. + +[Page 318] + +BODDAM, DUNROSSNESS, FRIDAY, JANUARY 26, 1872 + +ROBERT HENDERSON, examined. + +12,831. You are the son of Mr. Gavin Henderson, who is a +merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness?-I am. + +12,832. You have charge of his business now?-Yes, mostly. + +12,833. Are you in partnership with him?-No. + +12,834. You are his manager?-Yes. + +12,835. Of what does your stock consist?-It is most impossible to +say. It consists of drapery goods, groceries, ironmongery, coal, +and I don't know what more. + +12,836. Do you buy some hosiery?-A little; and we buy eggs as +well. + +12,837. I believe you have about the largest business in the +neighbourhood?-We do a reasonable business. + +12,838. You are not engaged in the fishing in any way?-We buy +fish, but we have no boats of our own. + +12,839. From whom do you buy fish?-From any parties who +present them to us. We buy scarcely any in summer. It is mostly +in winter that we get them, because in the summer months the +boats are all engaged to certain fish-merchants, and the men sell +their fish to them or to the proprietors. + +12,840. Is it generally the proprietors who have the fishing in their +own hands?-Some of them have, and some have not. Mr. Bruce +of Simbister does not have the fishing in his hands; the others +have. + +12,841. To whom do Mr. Bruce of Simbister's tenants generally +fish?-His tenants on the west side, those round us, fish for Mr. +John Robertson, jun., Lerwick, and for Mr. Robert Mullay, +Lerwick. + +12,842. How many boats has Mr. Mullay?-I don't know exactly; +perhaps seven or eight. He has a station at Ireland, and Mr. +Robertson, jun. has one at Spiggie. They have no shops there. +They have only the stations hired from Mr. Bruce. Those of Mr. +Bruce's tenants who fish from Spiggie are bound to fish for Mr. +Robertson during the summer months, and those who fish from +Ireland at that time are bound to fish for Mr. Mullay. + +12,843. Do you understand that these tenants are bound to fish for +these merchants?-Yes. + +12,844. Is that the understanding in the district?-Yes; but during +the summer months only. + +12,845. Do you know that from the men themselves?-Yes. + +12,846. Have they often told you that they are bound to fish for +these tacksmen?-They have often told me that; but they are not +tacksmen, they only have the stations. + +12,847. Do these men deal a great deal at your shop?-Yes. + +12,848. Have they ever told you in what way they are bound, or +how they know they are bound?-Robert Robertson, of Noss, once +wished to have liberty to dry his fish for himself, and to fish from +Spiggie, and he would force a beach for himself quite apart from +Mr. Robertson's beach, but he was refused liberty. + +12,849. When was that?-I could not say; it was about four or five +years ago, I think. + +12,850. Do you know any one else who was interfered with in the +same way?-I know a man from Ireland who was obliged to beach +and draw his boat in a ghive some distance from Ireland, in order +to sell his fish to Charles Nicholson, Scalloway. His name was +Gavin Goudie. + +12,851. Are these the only curers for whom the tenants of Mr. +Bruce of Simbister fish?-No. If they do not fish from Spiggie or +from Ireland, they are at liberty to fish for whom they like. They +can dry their fish or sell them wet, just as they please. A good +many of them fish from about Scatness and West Voe, and sell +their fish to Hay & Co. A few of them fish from Voe, and sell +their fish to Mr. Grierson of Quendale. + +12,852. But they are at liberty to sell to any person they like?- +Yes. Mr. Grierson of Quendale has a station at Voe in tack, and +the fishermen are not bound to fish for him unless they like. + +12,853. Have you dealings with all the fishermen in your +neighbourhood on the Simbister estate?-Not with all, but +with most of them. + +12,854. And also with some on the Sumburgh and Quendale +estates?-Yes. + +12,855. Are your transactions with these men generally paid for in +cash, or do you run accounts with them?-We run accounts with +them partly, and their purchases are paid in cash partly. + +12,856. Do you run accounts with them for any length of time?- +For a year. There is only a yearly settlement here, and we run +accounts with them to the end of the year, when they settle with +their fish-merchants. Then, as a rule, they pay us, though there are +exceptions. + +12,857. How do these exceptions occur?-Perhaps they are not +able to pay us. + +12,858. I suppose you are not very willing to give long credits in +that way?-No. We would wish very much to have the credit +system done away with; but we must do it. + +12,859. You have not got the same security as a curer for whom +the men are fishing?-No. + +12,860. Do you think that more of the fishermen would deal with +you if you were able to afford them the same credit as they get +from the curers?-It is very likely they would. + +12,861. But you restrict their credits?-Yes. + +12,862. Have you understood from any of the fishermen, that they +are obliged to deal at Grutness or Quendale in order that they may +get their goods on credit?-Mr. Bruce, so far, as I know, does not +interfere with his men with regard to the purchase of their +groceries or goods. If they buy at Grutness, I suppose it will be so +much the better; but if they did not buy there, I never heard any of +them say that Mr. Bruce would say anything to them. + +12,863. That is not the question. What I asked was, whether the +fact that they can get a longer credit there, and there only, and that +they have no ready money, obliged them to go to these shops?- +Very often it does. + +12,864. Do you know that from the statements of the fishermen +themselves?-Yes. + +12,865. Is it a common feeling amongst men with whom you +come in contact, that they would like to have liberty to fish for +themselves?-Yes, very much so. + +12,866. Do they speak as if they felt that the restriction which is +put upon them with regard to fishing is also a restriction as to the +shop at which they are to deal?-If they have no cash, it comes to +be a restriction. What the men want is to have the stations in their +own power, so as to be able to dry their fish for themselves, or to +sell to whom they like. That would give a competition in trade; +but while the fishermen are bound to fish to certain parties, it +causes a monopoly in trade. + +12,867. What is about the utmost amount to which you can allow +an account to run in the course of the year?-It depends very +much upon the position of the party who is running the account. +Ordinarily we allow an account with fishermen to run from 30s. to +£2, but some of them run accounts up to £10. + +12,868. Have you any men on the Sumburgh or Quendale estates +who have run up accounts as high as £8 or [Page 319]£10?-Not +on Sumburgh or Quendale to that extent; but I daresay some of +them do run up accounts to the extent of £5 or £6 or £7. + +12,869. Are the men who run accounts to that extent fewer upon +these estates than upon the Simbister estate and the other estates in +the district?-We don't run such heavy accounts as that with any +men at all, unless they have something else to fall back upon + +12,870. What was about the average price of your meal in 1870?- +It varied very much. Before the French War broke out, the meal +was very low. I remember that in the first of the season we were +selling oatmeal for 17s. per boll, or 34s. a sack. + +12,871. How much was that per lispund?-4s. 3d.; and it rose +throughout the season to about 21s. 6d. or 22s., or 5s. 6d. per +lispund. + +12,872. Is the lispund less than a quarter boll?-We give it nearly +about the same size. We give 34 lbs. to a lispund. + +12,873 Is that usual in the country?-No; 32 lbs is the usual +measure. We give 8 lbs. for a peck, and charge a less price for it +than for a quarter of a lispund. We have the meal in boll bags, +and when parties want a boll we sell it without breaking bulk. + +12,874. Would you look over your books for 1870, and ascertain +the highest and the lowest price at which you bought and sold meal +in the course of that year?-Yes.* + +12,875 At what are you selling tobacco?-We sell Irish roll at +11d. per quarter, and mid at 1s. per quarter. We sell the mid at +31/2d. per ounce, or 6d. for 2 ounces. + +12,876 What is the price of the best quality of soft sugar?-We +sell soft brown sugar at 5d. per lb. We sell our best crushed sugar +at 6d., and hard sugar at 61/2d. + +12,877 Do you sell lines?-Sometimes. Our price for 2-lb. lines +is 2s., for 21/4-lb. lines 2s. 3d., and for hooks is 8d. per 100. + +12,878. Are these quite as good as are sold by your neighbours?-I +suppose they are. We sell them freely. + +12,879. What is the price of a 60-fathom line?-We don't keep +these, but they generally come to about 1s. per lb. The price +depends upon the weight. When we buy fish we do so at a stated +price, which is fixed at the time of the purchase Most of the fish +we buy are in the winter time, from those tenants of Mr. Bruce +who fish for Hay & Co. and Mr. Robertson and Mr. Mullay in +summer. In winter they are free to sell to whom they like; and we +put a price on the fish, and give them cash over the counter when +the fish are delivered. + +12,880. Do they sometimes take away the price of their fish in +goods?-They can please themselves. We pay them cash, and +they buy goods or not as they like + +12,881. Do you always give them cash?-Yes, when we have got +it. Sometimes we may give them an I O U, and others prefer to +have the amount put to their accounts but the fish are bought at a +certain price, and that is divided at the time amongst the men. + +12,882. In winter the boat's crew, I suppose, consists of 3 or 4 +men?-Yes. + +12,883. Is any difficulty experienced in fixing the shares of the +men at the time?-No. The price is just divided among them +according to the way in which they want it. + +12,884. You ascertain the price of the whole catch of the boat, and +then each man takes his third or his fourth, as the case may be?- +Yes, whatever the catch may be, each man gets his share of it. + +12,885. Would there be any difficulty in paying for the fish in that +way in the summer fishing?-In the summer fishing it would not +work very well, because it would not do to give the men their cash +just off-hand; but there is a way in which it could be done equally +well. Suppose the men knew what the price of the fish was to be, +the amount could be left in the hands of the parties who bought +their fish from them. They don't require to draw all their money at +once. + +12,886. Do you mean that they could draw some of it?-Yes. +What I hear the men complain of is, that they don't know what +price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season; +but if they had the fishing in their own hands, so that they could +sell to whom they liked, they could make their bargain at the +commencement of the season if they chose, in the same way as +the herring fishing is carried on at Wick. + +12,887. Or they might fix the price from week to week, or from +month to month?-Yes. If there were several parties who were at +liberty to buy the fish from the men, that would cause competition +in the market, and the probability is the price would go higher. + +12,888. But you think it would not work so well to have the men +paid every time the boat came in in summer?-I don't think it +would, because they would be liable to spend the money. + +12,889. Is that the only reason why you think that system would +not work?-Yes, the only reason. + +12,890. Would there be any difficulty in settling?-We don't +experience any difficulty in settling with our men. + +12,891. Might it not require a curer at a station such as Spiggie or +Ireland, or at a more distant place, to have a more efficient factor +there than he would otherwise have, and perhaps also to keep +money there?-That might be avoided. For instance, Mr. Irvine +has some workmen here who work for him in building houses and +other things; and he tells their foreman to hand us in a note of their +time every fortnight, in order that we may settle up with the men. +The men don't choose to draw their money whenever it falls due; +but we give the foreman a few pounds, and he gives them as much +money as they like to draw. Some of them don't draw any of their +wages until the end of the season, when they get it to pay their +rents with; and the fishing might be managed in the same way. + +12,892. Are those masons and labourers who are employed by Mr. +Irvine?-Yes; on the Simbister estate. Of course they know the +money is there, and they can draw it every fortnight if they like; +but there is nothing to prevent them from leaving it until the end of +the season, or whenever they wish to square up. + +12,893. I suppose these men very often have accounts running at +the same time?-Some of them have, and some have not; but that +is quite a distinct matter. Their wages are always paid to them in +cash. + +12,894. But they often don't choose to ask for it?-They +sometimes don't choose to ask for it till the end of the season. + +12,895. Do you think they have a fear themselves that it might be +spent if they took it sooner?-It is quite possible they have. + +12,896. And they get what they want in the meantime at your shop, +or anywhere else where they can have credit?-They may or they +may not, as they like. That is entirely at their own option; but they +can get supplies of cash from their foreman when they want them. + +12,897. Is it the foreman who gives the money to them?-Yes. +We supply the foreman with cash when he wants it; and then he +gives it to the men when they want it, and charges it against them. + +12,898. You have a note of the men's time furnished [Page 320] to +you every fortnight by the foreman. What is the purpose of +that?-In order that the accounts may be regularly kept. + +12,899. Who keeps the accounts?-We do. + +12,900. Do you add up the men's time every fortnight, and make a +note of the amount that is due to each?-Yes. + +12,901. In that way, supposing a man has an account with you, +you know whether he has been overdrawing it in goods or +otherwise?-Yes; but he draws the cash from the foreman if he +applies for it, and then the foreman gives us a note of the cash he +has paid, and of the man's time for the fortnight. + +12,902. But if the man takes out goods he settles with you?-Yes; +or if he draws the money from the foreman, he pays the goods he +has got from us with it. + +12,903. If he has an account with you, in that case he will settle +with you at once?-If he has an account with us he allows his +account to go on, and the foreman pays him cash when he wants +it When he gets cash from the foreman, it is at his own option to +square his account with it or not, as he likes. + +12,904. If the man is in your debt, do you still give him the +cash?-Yes. + +12,905. But you could retain it if there was any doubt about the +men's solvency?-We always do hand them the cash. + +12,906. You have never had occasion to retain it on account of a +man's delay or refusal to pay his debt?-No. + +12,907. Do you sometimes get stray lots of fish during the +summer?-Not much. Sometimes, perhaps, we get a 'supper +piltock.' The men take home a few fish for their own family use, +Sometimes a man has large family, and another man has a small +family, but they require to take home an equal number of fish to +each of them; and then the man who does not require so much +sells what he has got extra and that is called a supper piltock. + +12,908. I suppose there is not much smuggling of fish going on +here?-I don't think so; not in the summer time. + +12,909. But if a man who is bound to fish wants a little ready +money, does he not come to you with a lot of fish?-Not in the +summer time; they would not be safe to do that. They would get +their warning if they sold their fish past their proprietor in the +summer time. + +12,910. If it were known?-Yes, if it were known. + +12,911. But don't they try to do it sometimes on the sly?-I don't +know that they do. + +12,912. You take them all for supper piltocks, if any are brought to +you?-I suppose so. + +12,913. Do you buy hosiery upon the system that is usual in the +country?-No; we buy for cash. + +12,914. Are you the only merchants in Shetland who do so?-I +don't know; but it is very little hosiery we deal in. We find it very +easy to buy, but very difficult to sell. We are not rightly in the +market. We wish to carry on the hosiery trade on the same +principle as the rest of our business, buying everything at a cash +price, and giving cash for it if it is asked. + +12,915. Do you find any unwillingness on the part of the knitters to +take lower prices for their hosiery if they are to be paid for it in +cash?-No, they are ready to sell for lower prices if they can get +cash; and so they may, because sometimes girls come into our +shop with cottons or flowers or other goods which they have +brought from Lerwick, and ask us to exchange them. + +12,916. Are you often asked to take flowers in that way?-Not +often, because we refuse to do it, unless they are goods which have +been bought from ourselves. In that case we exchange them; but if +they are bought from other parties we won't take them. We find +that the goods which are offered to us as having been received for +hosiery are very much higher priced than what we would sell the +goods at ourselves. + +12,917. Have you been offered goods in that way lately?-Not +lately, because we have refused to take them. The girls have told +us that there is no use asking for cash in Lerwick, because they +won't get it, and they don't ask us to take the goods, because they +know we won't take them. + +12,918. Do you remember any case in which you were offered +goods that had been obtained for hosiery at a lower price than they +were nominally sold at to them?-I have been offered goods at a +lower price, certainly, but I could not mention any particular case. + +12,919. Has that happened more than once?-It has happened very +often. + +12,920. About what amount of business are you doing in hosiery +on that system?-Very little at present. + +12,921. Is that because you don't get a sale for it?-Yes. As I +said, we have not got into the market rightly. + +12,922. Do you find it difficult to get the hosiery sold at a profit +when you buy it on that system?-Yes. + +12,923. Have you been obliged to sell it at something like the price +which you paid for it?-Yes, we don't look for a profit upon +hosiery. + +12,924. Then why do you deal in it if you don't look for a +profit?-Because it gives the people a chance of getting cash for +it, and then we have a chance of getting the cash again. + +12,925. I suppose that generally you do get the cash again?- +Generally we do; but that is quite optional with the people +themselves. + +12,926. Do you pay for hosiery in goods at all?-If they ask for +goods, of course we give them goods; but if they ask for cash they +get it. That is the way in which we do all our business. We put +the goods that we buy at cash prices, and we put the goods that we +sell at cash prices, and it is a matter of indifference to us whether +they ask goods or cash. + +12,927. But, in point of fact, the hosiery may be paid for in goods, +and no cash may pass if the party so chooses?-That may happen, +but we don't do it as rule. As a rule, some other party buys the +hosiery who knows better about it than I do, and hands the cash to +the party from whom the hosiery is bought, and then they are at +liberty to buy from us, or from any other person they like. + +12,928. Are the eggs which you buy paid for on the same +principle?-They are paid for in goods or cash, as the parties +wish. + +12,929. But the custom of the country is to pay for them in +goods?-That is the custom of the country. + +12,930. Do you generally find that the people who bring them are +content to take the price, or prefer to take the price of them in +goods?-They often take the price in goods, because they want +them, but at the same time that is quite optional with themselves. + +12,931. Are there not two prices for these things, whether they are +paid in goods or cash?-Some parties have two prices, but we +have not. We have only one price. We often prefer to pay the +people in cash when they really want goods, because it saves a +great deal of trouble in settling with them, and then they buy goods +again. + +12,932. Do you find that your cash transactions for goods are +generally greater at one season of the year than at another?-Yes, +very much greater. Our busy season for cash commences when the +landlords and fishcurers commence to pay the men for their +season's fishing, and we continue to drive a large trade of that +description until April. + +12,933. Do you then find the men beginning to ask for credit more +frequently?-Yes. + +12,934. Do you think it would be better for the trade generally, as +well as for the men, if they were paid more frequently, and the +settlements were not so distant?-It would certainly be better for +us if they were paid more frequently, because then we would be +paid more frequently also. + +12,935. Do you think it would be better for the men too, and that +they would make a better bargain with their money, or do you +think it is just as well that the money should be kept for them?-I +consider that the money is kept up a great deal too long. For +instance, if the fish-curers paid for the fish at the end of the fishing +season, that is, on 1st September, that might serve the men very +well; but as it is with some parties, it is the 1st of April or the end +of March before they are paid. + +[Page 321] + +12,936. Are the men sometimes in difficulties with regard to their +supplies, in consequence of that?-No; because if they have +anything to get, they can obtain supplies from the stores of the +fish-merchants. They can get anything they like from them in +goods. Perhaps that is the reason why the settlement is sometimes +so long delayed, because it gives the men the chance of running a +larger account than they would otherwise do and then they have +less cash to get. + +12,937. Have you any ground for that statement other than from +mere inference?-No. There is one thing I may mention in +connection with the fishing, that when the men sell their fish +green, the drying of them must be paid for to other parties; but +suppose the men dried the fish themselves, there are often windy +days, when they cannot be at the fishing, and then they work at the +drying of their own fish when they would have been doing nothing +if they had been on-shore. In that way they can dry their fish for +themselves very much cheaper than the fish-curer can dry them. + +12,938. But can they do it as well? Do you think the fish cured by +a fisherman himself command as good a market as those cured on +a large scale by a curer?-We have had very little experience in +that matter, because we don't buy fish in that way. + +12,939. Do you cure any fish at all?-Yes; we cure the fish which +we buy in the winter time wet. + +12,940. How many fish do you sell in the course of a year?-From +10 to 20 tons. + +12,941. Do you sell these at what is called the current price?- +There is a current price for the ling fishing, according to which the +fishermen are paid, and we try to get the most out of the fish that +we can. + +12,942. Do you generally get above or below what is called the +current price in Shetland?-I don't know, because merchants, as a +rule, don't care about saying much about what they have got for +their fish. + +12,943. Are you not consulted by other curers about fixing the +current price?-No; we just act for ourselves. + +12,944. Do you get a lower price for winter fish than is given for +summer fish?-Yes, as a rule, we get less for them. + +12,945. Your father is present to-day, but he prefers that you +should be examined, as he is not in very good health?-Yes. + +*Mr. Henderson afterwards furnished the following statement:- + +LIST of OATMEAL invoiced to and sold by Gavin Henderson, +Dunrossness, in 1870. +Date of Invoice. + 1870. +a March 11. 24 Bolls Oatmeal, sold by him at 16s. 6d +b " 18. 24 " " 17s. 0d +c April 15. 8 " " 18s. 0d +d May 13. 6 " " 18s. 0d +e " 13. 14 " " 18s. 0d +f June 3. 20. " " 19s. 0d +g 24. 8 " " 19s. 6d +h July 26. 16 " " 21s. 0d +i Aug. 10. 2 " " 22s. 0d +j Sept. 30. 2 " " 19s. 6d +k Nov. 4. 2 " " 19s. 0d. +l 126 Bolls + + +a ...£19 16 0 +b ... 20 8 0 +c ... 7 4 0 +d ... 5 8 0 +e ... 12 12 0 +f ... 19 0 0 +g ... 7 16 0 +h ... 16 16 0 +i ... 2 4 0 +j ... 1 19 0 +k ... 1 18 0 +l £115 1 0 +Average price sold at per Boll, 18s. 3d, as nearly as has been +ascertained. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, THOMAS TULLOCH, +examined. + +12,946. You are a fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden?-Yes. + +12,947. Do you employ a number of boats' crews for fishing in +summer?-Yes. I think I had about 20 altogether last year. + +12,948. Are the men you employ chiefly tenants on the Simbister +estate?-No; they are on the Sandlodge part of the Sumburgh +estate. + +12,949. Are they in any way restricted as to the person to whom +they are to sell their fish?-No. + +12,950. Do you also buy fish in winter from any men who choose +to sell them to you?-Yes. + +12,951. Have you bought any from tenants on the Quendale +estate?-No, not from Quendale tenants. + +12,952. Have you bought any fish in winter from the Sumburgh +tenants in Dunrossness?-No. + +12,953. Do you settle with your fishermen annually in the winter, +in the same way as other merchants do?-Yes; once at year. + +12,954. Have you a shop at which they run accounts?-Yes. + +12,955. I suppose they generally incur an account in the course of +the year, which runs away with part of their earnings?-Yes. + +12,956. And you set the one against the other?-Yes. + +12,957. Are your boats hired out to the men?-In some cases they +are, but in other cases they are their own boats. + +12,958. What is the amount of the boat hire they pay?-£2 for the +summer. + +12,959. Do you hire out lines and hooks also?-Very seldom. + +12,960. Do you sometimes make an arrangement by which the +men buy a boat and pay for it by instalments?-Yes. It will take +about five years to pay it up. + +12,961. Is that arrangement made at the beginning of the +transaction, or do you just sell the boat, and leave the men to pay +it up as they are able?-It is an arrangement which is entered into +at the beginning. They have to pay so much every year,-say £1 a +year from every man. + +12,962. Do you find that the men generally manage to settle up for +their boats within the five years?-Yes, about that time. + +12,963. How long does at boat last?-Some of them last longer +than others, but I should say that on an average they last about +fifteen or sixteen years. + +12,964. Do you pay the same rate for the fish that are caught by +men who own a boat and by those who hire one?-The same. + +12,965. Is the price which you pay for your fish generally a higher +one than the current price?-Generally it is a little higher. + +12,966. What is the reason for that?-I don't know. We like to get +the services of the men, if possible. + +12,967. I understand the current price last year was 8s. for ling?-I +don't think it was so much. + +12,968. What did you pay?-I paid 8s. 3d. in 1870, and 8s. 9d. in +1871. + +12,969. Do you think the current price was less than 8s.?-I think +so, but I am not quite certain. + +12,970. Are you obliged to give a higher price in consequence of +competition among fish-curers in your neighbourhood?-No. + +12,971. Then why do you do it?-We just want to satisfy the men. + +12,972. Do the men in your district require a higher price than +their neighbours in order to be satisfied?-Yes; they want a higher +price, and it has been paid for some years back. + +12,973. Can you account for that in any way?-No. I once got into +the way of giving a little more than the currency, and the men have +always looked for it since. + +12,974. Were not the men in your district, until lately, bound to +fish for a tacksman, Robert Mouat?-Not in our district. The men +who fished for him lived at some distance from me. + +12,975. Have you settled this year?-Yes. + +12,976. What would be about the average amount of cash which +each man had to receive at settlement?-I should say about £4. + +12,977. Would the amount of his earning from the fishing be £12 +or £15 on an average?-Not so much. It might be about £8 or £9. + +12,978. Has the fishing in your neighbourhood been less successful +this year than in other parts of Shetland?-It has been less +successful for some time back, but last year it has done very well; +I should suppose about an average. + +12,979. Some of your men, I suppose, would have nothing to take +at settlement?-Yes, some had nothing. + +12,980. They had exhausted the amount of their earnings by +advances in shop goods?-Yes, and in money advances too. +The advances were not all in shop goods. + +12,981. Do they often ask for advances before the end of the +season?-Often. + +12,982. Do you think it would be an advantage if they were paid +more frequently for their fish?-I don't think so. I think they +would not get such high prices. + +12,983. Do you mean that if the price were fixed at the beginning +of the season, the merchant would be cautious about fixing a high +price?-Yes. + +12,984. But if the prices varied from time to time, according to the +state of the market, would the men not be better to have the money +in their own hands, and then they would have a chance of a +variable price?-In that case they would; but some people don't +know how [Page 322] to take care of their money when they get it. +They don't know how to lay it out. + +12,985. If they had money in their own hands, would they not learn +to take care of it?-I don't know. I think it would be rather a +difficult matter to learn some of them. + +12,986. What other fish-curers are there in your neighbourhood?- +Mr. Smith. There is no other merchant in the immediate +neighbourhood. Mr. Harrison has also some curing done there. + +12,987. Has he a station there?-Yes; it is about mile from my +place. + +12,988. How far is Mr. Smith from you?-He is next door. + +12,989. Is there not a good deal of competition between you +three?-Not much. + +12,990. Are you not all anxious to get a larger number of boats to +fish for you?-Of course. + +12,991. Has not that some effect upon the price which you offer +for the fishing?-Perhaps it has a little. + +12,992. Do you think if you were the only curer there, you would +be able to get your men to give you their fish for 8s.?-Perhaps I +might, if they could get no other body to take them, and who +would give them more. + +12,993. Have you always given the same price as Mr. Smith, or is +there sometimes a difference between you?-There never is any +difference. + +12,994. How long have you been in business there?-For fifteen +years. + +12,995. How long has he been there?-I think about sixteen or +seventeen years. + +12,996. Do his men sometimes shift from him to you, or the other +way?-Yes, sometimes. + +12,997. Is there any particular reason for that?-I cannot say; I +suppose it is just their fancy. + +12,998. Is a man more likely to shift when he is in your debt, or +when he is out of it?-When he is out of it. + +12,999. When he is in your debt, does he like to continue to fish +for you until his debt is paid off?-Sometimes he does. + +13,000. Have you any arrangement with Mr. Smith by which, +when a man changes from one place to the other, the new +employer takes in hand the debt which the man is due to his +former employer; or becomes responsible for it?-There is no +arrangement of that kind between us. + +13,001. Have you sometimes done that?-I believe I have done it. + +13,002. Have you undertaken a debt due to Mr. Smith?-Yes, +when it was not very much. + +13,003. And you have got it from the man at the end of the season, +or as soon as he was able to pay it, and handed it over to Mr. +Smith?-Yes; he either got it, or it was set down in his book. + +13,004. How often may that have happened?-Not very often. + +13,005. Has it been done lately?-Yes. + +13,006. I suppose it is not an unusual thing in the fishing trade for +that to be done?-It is not unusual. Of course, the curer that the +man leaves expects him to pay his debt when he does leave. + +13,007. Are you responsible to any landlords for the rents of their +tenants?-No. + +13,008. Do you, in point of fact, sometimes pay the fishermen's +rents for them?-Yes, to Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh. + +13,009. That is to say, the fishermen, instead of getting the money +from you, have the amount of their rent entered in their accounts, +and you pay the whole in a cheque to Mr. Bruce?-Yes; but in +some cases I give the money to the men. + +13,010. How do you pay it to the landlord when it is paid by you to +him?-I just give Mr. Bruce a cheque for the whole when it is +collected together. + +13,011. How many men's rents may you have paid in that way last +year?-I think about six. I gave money to the others, and they +handed it to Mr. Bruce themselves. + +13,012. Is there any arrangement with the landlord that you should +do that?-None. + +13,013. Does he sometimes apply to you for the rents of particular +men?-No. + +13,014. Do you sometimes buy cattle?-No. + +13,015. Do you buy eggs?-Yes. + +13,016. Do you pay for them in goods?-Yes. + +13,017. Have you two prices for them, as they are paid in goods or +in cash?-No. If the people did want cash I would not like to give +them so much in cash as in goods, because it is cash that I look for +in return. + +13,018. But I suppose you are never asked for cash payment for +eggs?-Very seldom. + +13,019. What is the price of meal at your shop just now?-I think +Scotch meal is about 5s. a quarter, or 20s. a boll. + +13,020. What was it in the summer of 1870?-I don't remember. + +13,021. What was it last summer?-I think it was about 5s. or 6s. +up or down, according to the market. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JAMES SMITH, examined. + + +13,022. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Hill Cottage, +Sandwick?-I am. + +13,023. Your shop is near that of Mr. Tulloch?-Yes, next door. + +13,024. You have heard his evidence?-Yes. + +13,025. Do you conduct your business in the same way?-The +very same. + +13,026. How many boats do you employ?-I had about twenty last +summer. + +13,027. What did you pay for you fish then?-8s. 9d., and I +understand the current price of the country has been 8s. + +13,028. Have you paid 9d. more than the currency?-Yes, on ling. + +13,029. Did you pay as much higher a price for cod and tusk?- +No. We paid 7s. for cod and tusk, and I understand the current +price of the country has been 6s. 6d. We paid 4s. 3d. for saith, and +I understand the current price has been 4s. + +13,030. Do you generally pay as much above the current price as +you have done last year?-No, not as general thing. + +13,031. Can you assign any reason for your price this year being so +much higher?-No, I cannot assign any particular reason. + +13,032. Is it not in order that you may get as many fishermen as +you require?-The great reason is to try to please the fishermen as +far as possible; and in our quarter they are very bad to please. + +13,033. Why do you want to please them?-To get them to fish for +us. We are anxious to have as many fishermen as possible. There +is one thing which enables Mr. Tulloch and I to pay somewhat +higher prices than the currency; which is, that our curing places +are very near to ourselves, and we can always see the curing +carried on, and can cure cheaper. + +13,034. Do any of the fishermen in your district cure for +themselves?-Yes. + +13,035. Do you buy from them?-Sometimes. They sell to us if +they choose. + +13,036. Do you think the fish which they cure are as good as +yours?-Not unless they have a factor. When they cure them by +their own hands they are never so good. + +13,037. What do you mean by them having a factor?-A man set +over the fish to look after the curing of them, the same as I have. + +13,038. Do the fishermen who cure for themselves have a +factor?-Yes; the men at our place have a man to whom they pay +so much per ton per every ton of dried fish which are produced. + +13,039. In that case, where the fishermen agree to employ a factor, +do you think the curing is as well done as it is by you?-It is, when +they get an experienced man for the purpose. + +[Page 323] + +13,040. In that case do the men club together in order to buy +implements, vats, and other things for curing?-Yes. + +13,041. It is it sort of co-operative system?-Yes. + +13,042. Do you do anything in hosiery?-No. + +13,043. Do you buy eggs, and pay for them in goods?-Yes. + +13,044. Are the prices of the goods in your shop the same as in Mr. +Tulloch's?-They are generally the same. + +13,045. What is the price of meal at present?-Scotch oatmeal is +20s. a boll, or 5s. a quarter; Shetland meal is only 3s. or 3s. 6d. + +13,046. Is the Shetland oatmeal of much inferior quality?-As a +general thing, it is much inferior. There is not much of it sold. +The people generally use their own meal, and it is much to be +regretted that they require a great deal more than what they can +grow. + +13,047. Do you think you could manage to pay your people, +without much inconvenience, as the fish are landed?-I think I +might manage that, but I don't think it would be for the public +good. In the first place, the fishermen would not be able to get the +fishing articles and the quantity of meal they require before the +fishing commenced, because they would not have money to pay for +them. Another reason is, that if they had the money they don't +very well know how to manage it, and it would be spent before +rent time came. Then, if they had no money, the landlord would +have to go and take their corn or their cattle and roup them in order +to get his rent, and the people would be losers. + +13,048. Do you think one advantage of the present system is, that it +carries the men through a bad year?-Yes. Last year we had a very +good fishing, but the majority of them had their rents to get. For as +few fishermen as I have, I had to advance them in order to help +them to pay their rents. + +13,049. Do you sometimes pay their rents for them?-I do so, as a +general thing. It is expected that the fish-merchant will not see +them at a loss; but, of course, if a ready-money system was +introduced, they could not look to the fish-merchant for any help. + +13,050. Why should they not look to him then?-If I only had the +men engaged from voyage to voyage, or from week to week, and +did not have the advantage of knowing that they were to fish for +me next year, it could not be expected that I would advance them +£140 to help them in paying their rents for this year. + +13,051. But perhaps they would not need it if they were in the habit +of getting their money?-In my opinion, they would need it more +than they do now. + +13,052. Have not other people than fishermen sometimes to pay +rents?-Yes. + +13,053. And they manage to have it in hand when the rent day +comes?-Yes; but these people, as a general rule, have bigger +farms, and cattle and ponies that they sell, and that helps them on +with their rents. + +13,054. But there are rents to be paid by people who have small +farms, or no farms at all; and if they manage to gather up for their +rent day, might not the fishermen do so as well?-They might do +so; but in our quarter-and I can only speak for it-the great +majority of the people have enough to do when there is a good +season, and when there is a bad one they are far short. + +13,055. Then I suppose the reason which you are now assigning +for keeping up the present system is rounded upon your opinion, +that the people of Shetland are less careful and less sensible than +people of the same class in other parts of Scotland?-I don't +believe they are less sensible than the fishermen or men of the +same class elsewhere. I believe there are as competent men in +Shetland, as a general rule, as in any other part of Scotland; but the +fishing is a very fluctuating piece of business, and I think that very +often they could not manage to save up money for their rent if +there was a cash system. Of course there are differences among +them. There are some men in our quarter who are laying past +money, while there are others who are overhead in debt, in spite of +all that can be done for them. + +13,056. I understand you have been frequently at Fair Isle?-I +think it is about six or seven years since I was there last, but I was +very often there before. I had a small vessel of my own, and I +went to the Isle to barter goods with the people. I bartered them +for cash, not for fish. + +13,057. Did you go there every year for some time?-I went three +or four times in some years, and I continued going for seven or +eight years. + +13,058. Did you go as a private speculation of your own?-Yes. + +13,059. What kind of goods did you take?-Tea, sugar, tobacco +and cottons. + +13,060. Was there any particular reason for giving up that trade?- +No; I was getting tired of it. + +13,061. Did you find it a hazardous sort of thing?-It was very +much so: I ran many a risk of losing my life. It was an open +vessel, without a deck, that I went in, and in the winter time the +coast there is very dangerous. + +13,062. Was the market open at that time at Fair Isle?-Generally +in the winter time it was. + +13,063. Was it not open in the summer time also?-Not so +much, because the man who had it in tack generally supplied the +fishermen at that time with their stores and meal. I made one or +two trips there with meal, because the people sent for me to bring +it, as their master could not get their meal forwarded so quickly +from Orkney as they required it. + +13,064. Who was the tacksman then?-John Hughson from +Orkney. + +13,065. Have you been there since he ceased to be tacksman?- +Never. + +13,066. Was your trade with the Fair Isle people objected to by +him?-He never objected to me. + +13,067. Did he object to any one else?-Not to my knowledge. + +13,068. Then you could trade with the people as much as you +pleased?-Yes; there was no restriction whatever. I very often +spoke with Mr. Hughson himself. + +13,069. Did you stop at the time when Hughson ceased to be +tacksman?-I was almost giving up the trade before he ceased to +be tacksman. His time was not quite run out the last time I was +there. + +13,070. Who succeeded Mr. Hughson as tacksman?-Mr. John +Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh. + +13,071. You have not been there since he became tacksman?- +Never as a trader. I was there once when a ship was wrecked on +the Seil. I have made a mistake there: I have been once at the +island trading since Mr. Bruce bought it, and I had full liberty from +him to go. + +13,072. Did you get express permission from him?-Yes. + +13,073. When was that?-I don't remember; it may have been four +or five years ago. + +13,074. Why did you ask permission?-He wished me to go in +with goods to the people, and I told him I did not like to go with +freight there unless he would allow me to trade for myself; and +then he gave me full liberty. + +13,075. Was Mr. Bruce not sending a vessel of his own at that +time?-He could not get a vessel to go. It is such a nasty coast for +inexperienced men, that it is difficult to get men to venture there. + +13,076. You agreed to go only on condition that you had the trade +in your own hands?-Yes; and I had his freight in the meantime. + +13,077. Did you understand at that time that you were not at +liberty to trade with the Fair Isle people without Mr. Bruce's +permission?-I did not understand anything about it. He only +asked me to go with freight, and I asked him if I would be at +liberty to trade with the people myself, and he said I would. + +13,078. Did he not say that it was only for this special occasion +that you were to have liberty?-He did not. + +[Page 324] + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, 1872 JOHN HALCROW, +examined. + + +13,079. You are a fisherman at Levenwick?-I am. + +13,080. On whose property is your ground?-On that of Mr. Bruce +of Simbister. + +13,081. Was that ground formerly under tack to Robert Mouat?- +Yes. His tack expired about a year ago; but before that, he had +become bankrupt. + +13,082. Were you bound to fish for him?-Yes. + +13,083. Were you also obliged to deal at his shop?-No. I had a +little money of my own, and I went to any merchant that I thought +I +could get the best bargain from. + +13,084. Did you go to Mouat for a good bargain?-No. + +13,085. Why?-Because he never had good bargains. The quality +of his articles was not good, and the price was dearer than that of +any merchant in the neighbourhood. + +13,086. Were many men in the habit of dealing with him?-Mr. +Bruce's tenantry both in Channerwick and Levenwick were bound +to fish for him. + +13,087. But did they deal with him for shop goods and +provisions?-Yes, almost all of them dealt with him. + +13,088. Why?-Because they were bound to do it. + +13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The +fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their +produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish. + +13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?- +No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce, +and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money. + +13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes, +for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had +any money to get from him. + +13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he +received all their fish. + +13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them +money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him. + +13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if +they would take it. + +13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much. + +13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good. + +13,097. Then they would have money to get, at the end of the year +if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes. + +13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He +said he did not have it to give them. + +13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases +they got it. + +13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes. + +13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they +would not take his goods. + +13,102. Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes. + +13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself. + +13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to +give me. + +13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two +years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of +1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again +to Mr William Irvine. + +13,106. Why did you give Mouat your rent for 1871 nearly two +years before it was due?-Because I thought he was to have the +tack for two years more. + +13,107. But it was your own fault, was it not that you had to pay it +twice?-I don't know about that. + +13,108. Could you not have got the money from Mouat?-No. I +would have had to apply to the civil law to get it. + +13,109. You could have got the value of it in goods from him?- +Yes. I could have got it in goods; but they were of an inferior +quality, and I did not want to take them. [The witness produced a +receipt for the rent of 1871 from Mr. William Irvine, and also +receipt from Mouat in the following terms: +'£5 MOUL, 13<th Jn>. 1871. +' This is to certify that I have from Thomas Halcrow the rent of +1871 in my hands. ROBT. MO.'] + +13,110. Is that Mouat's signature?-Yes; it is what I got from him. + +13,111. Did you see him write it?-I did. + +13,112. Do you know any other men who paid rent to Mouat in the +same way?-I don't know of any others who paid him in that +particular way, but I know some men who had money in his hands. + +13,113. Was John Mouat one of them?-Yes. He had money in +Robert Mouat's hands by the fishing. + +13,114. Was he not able to get his money at the settlement of +1870?-No. I know that he could not get it. + +13,115. Do you know anything about that except that he could not +get it?-No. + +13,116. You have another document in your hands: what is it?-It +is a copy of our account from Mr. Smith for the fishing. + +13,117. Do you get a copy of your accounts from Mr. Smith at +every settlement?-Yes. I have only settled with him one year. + +13,118. This is an account for two men; and it shows the prices +you got in 1871,-ling 8s. 9d., cod 7s., tusk 7s., and saith 4s. +3d.?-Yes. + +13,119. Did you get all that in cash?-Yes, except what I had +received in cash before. I had received a little cash in the course +of +the summer. I had got no advances from him in goods, because his +shop was so far from where I lived. + +13,120. Why are the two men's accounts in the same slip of +paper?-Because there are five of us who go in one boat; and three +men agreed to fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun. and two for Mr. +James Smith. + +13,121. Whose boat was it?-James Gilbertson was the skipper; +and the boat belonged to the men. + +13,122. Is it a usual arrangement, that part of the crew fish to one +merchant and part to another?-No. + +13,123. How did it happen in this case?-Because we wanted our +liberty. We did not want to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson. + +13,124. Would you not have been at liberty if you had fished for +Mr. Robertson?-Our reason for not fishing for him was because +Robert Mouat called all his tenants to the Moul, and ordered them +to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson for him two rising years. + +13,125. Was Mr. John Robertson Mouat's trustee in his +sequestration?-Yes. + +13,126. Some of you declined to fish for him, and others engaged +to fish?-Yes. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GILBERT IRVINE, +examined. + +13,127. Are you shopkeeper at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce, +jun.?-I am. + +13,128. Do you also act as factor on the estate?-I don't know that +I could be called a factor exactly. I just do things about the estate +as Mr. Bruce wishes me. + +13,129. But you are sometimes employed as, a factor or overseer +going about the estate?-Yes, at times. + +13,130. Are you aware that the tenants on the Sumburgh estate in +Dunrossness parish are under tack to Mr. John Bruce, jun., and are +bound to deliver their fish to him?-It is understood that they are +to do so, but some of them don't do it. There are some of them +who have not fished for Mr. Bruce, and are not are very doing so +at the present time; but these are very few. The general +understanding is, that they are to deliver their fish to him. + +13,131. How long have you been at Grutness?-About +twenty-three or twenty-four years. + +13,132. I believe it was about 1860 that Mr Bruce took the tack?- +Yes. + +13,133. How were you employed at Grutness before [Page 325] +then?-I was there for Messrs. Hay & Co. They had the shop +there formerly, and some of the men belonging to that estate were +employed by them as fishermen. + +13,134. Do you remember intimation being made to the tenants +about 1860 that they were expected to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes. I +think there was some person sent round with a letter to that effect, +but I did not see the letter. + +13,135. However, you know that such an intimation was made?-I +understood so. + +13,136 Do you remember, a good many years ago, of one James +Brown at Toab selling some fish to Robert Leslie?-I don't +remember about that at present. + +13,137. Do you remember of James Brown's farm being +advertised to be let at the shop, a ticket being put up there?-I +don't remember about that. + +13,138. May it have happened, although you do not remember?- +It is possible it may have happened; but I don't remember anything +about it at the present moment. + +13,139. Can you say that such a thing did not happen twelve years +ago?-I think James Brown had not got a farm twelve years ago. + +13,140. Perhaps it was his father?-I never knew his father. I +think his father was dead before James Brown came to the parish. + +13,141. Do you remember any case of a farm being advertised +because the tenant had sold his fish, or attempted to sell them, to +another merchant?-I do not remember any case of a farm being +advertised for man selling fish. The tenants have been reproved +for doing so; but I cannot remember of any farm being advertised +for that. + +13,142. Have you spoken to them about doing such things?-Very +likely I have. + +13,143. Do you know one Thomas Aitken?-Yes. + +13,144 Do you know whether he had to sign a paper agreeing to +fish for Mr. Bruce so long as he lived on the ground?-I did not +see the paper. + +13,145. It was not through you that that was done?-No. + +13,146. Was there any special arrangement with him about +fishing?-I don't remember anything about it. If there was such +an arrangement, it would be with Mr. Bruce. + +13,147. You say you have sometimes reproved the tenants for +selling their fish to others?-Yes. There have been some seasons +when, from the end of October until May, they delivered none at +all, or not more than perhaps one cwt. or so. I believe most of +them have not delivered more than that during the whole time. + +13,148. But that was their winter fishing?-Yes. + +13,149. Have you said to them that they ought to deliver some of +their winter fish to you?-I told them, even last year, that if the +proprietor was aware that they were selling all their fish to other +merchants, he would be offended at them, or something to that +effect. + +13,150. Had that any effect?-Not much. + +13,151. They did not bring their winter fish to you?-No. + +13,152. Would it be as convenient for them to bring their winter +fish to you as to another?-Mr. Bruce had a station at the beach +head, and a factor, who was paid all the season round, for taking +fish, and salt and everything ready for them, but they would not +bring them to him. + +13,153. Where did they go with them?-I don't know, I suppose to +the merchants round about. + +13,154. Did they go to Messrs. Hay & Co., or to Quendale?-I +could not say where they went. + +13,155. Why did they not choose to come to you?-I don't know. +It is a general practice in Shetland, that tenants fishing for +landlords try to do as much trade with other merchants as they can. + +13,156. What has been their reason for that practice?-I think the +fact that they fish for their landlords has created a kind of feeling +that they are rather in bondage. + +13,157. And they like to have their liberty in winter?-I think +their feeling is, that they don't like the proprietor to know all their +transactions. That has been a practice in Shetland for a long time, +both in the north and the south. + +13,158. Have you had occasion to reprove the tenants for carrying +off their fish or smuggling them to other merchants in summer?-I +think I have done so once or twice. I remember on one occasion +seeing a boat coming from the sea to land their fish. I counted the +fish they had in the boat; I don't recollect the number, but they +were not all brought to the store. I made inquiry about that, and +found that some of the fish had been taken to other merchants; but +I never told Mr. Bruce about it. + +13,159. Your settlements at Grutness are made every year?-Yes, +once a year. + +13,160. What is the usual period at which the settlements are +completed?-In some years Mr. Bruce has begun towards the end +of January; but last year, on account of him being out of the way, +and me not having the accounts ready, the settlement went on as +late as April. + +13,161. Are the balances of these settlements always paid in +cash?-Yes; they are readily paid. Mr. Bruce always did that. + +13,162. Do you sometimes make advances in money to the men in +the course of the summer?-I do not make these advances. Mr. +Bruce sometimes does so and when at settlement some of them are +in debt, he gives them money in advance. It very seldom happens +that a man, even when he is in debt at settlement, will not ask him +for some shillings, or for £2 or £3, and he always gives it to them, +although they have no money to get, but have been in his debt for +some time. + +13,163. Do the men run accounts at your shop at Grutness as they +do with other merchants, for the purpose of supplying their +families and of getting supplies for the fishing?-Yes; what they +get is chiefly meal and hooks, and things of that kind. We do not +do much in dry goods. + +13,164. Except outfits for the fishermen?-Yes, except what we +cannot avoid giving them. + +13,165. At what time of the year are your transactions with the +fishermen largest?-In summer. While the fishing is going on, +our place is very busy. + +13,166. Is that the season when the meal of the fishermen +themselves is exhausted?-Yes. I have seen in bad years, when +there was a poor crop in Shetland, that they had to get meal +supplied to them so early as February; but for 2 or 3 years back the +crops have been better, and most of the men have carried on till +April or May without requiring any advances of that kind. + +13,167. Then your principal sales of meal are in the summer +time?-Yes. We seldom do anything in it after the crop has been +got in, except perhaps in the case of a person who has had a very +poor crop, or no crop at all, and then we may give him some. + +13,168. The quantity of meal which each man gets is entered in the +ledger account in your book at the time that he gets it?-Yes; we +just keep one ledger account. Sometimes the meal is marked on +slips of paper or in a little book when I am out of the way, but I try +to enter all these things in the ledger daily. + +13,169. But they are all entered in the ledger account, although +there may be some little delay in entering them?-Yes; every +person has all his dealings entered in one account. + +13,170. I understand, from what I saw in the books last night, and +from what you mentioned to me, that you don't fix the price of the +meal when it is given out?-No. I don't know yet the current +price of bear meal for this year. + +13,171. At first you only enter the quantity that is given out?- +Yes. + +13,172. And the price of the meal is fixed at settlement?-Yes, or +some time before it, in order that I may get the account extended +and added up. + +13,173. In what way is the price of the meal fixed for the year?-It +is generally taken on an average. In 1870, for instance, which is +the last year for which there has been a settlement, meal was pretty +low in [Page 326] the spring, varying from 18s. to 19s. per boll, +and it rose during the season until it was somewhere about £1, if +not above it. These changes frequently take place in the markets; +and in fixing the price for a particular year, we generally make an +average of the prices from first to last. If we were not to do that, +then it might chance that the poorest people might get the whole of +their meal at the dearest price, or when the price of meal was +highest; but the way in which we take it makes it more equal over +all. + +13,174. Do you take the average according to the whole quantity +of meal which you have sold?-Yes. We add up the total amount +of meal sold, and the prices per boll which the meal has cost. I +don't do that, but I believe that is the way in which it is done. It +is generally done by Mr. Bruce himself, but I have a general +understanding about it. For instance, if 20 bolls cost a certain +figure, and 30 bolls cost another figure, if we add the amounts +together, and take the average of the whole, we know what to sell +it for. That is the way in which I would do it, and I believe it is +the way in which it is done. + +13,175. You first strike the average of the wholesale price, and +then you allow a certain amount of profit upon that?-Yes. We +include the expense of bringing it here, and then we make an +average price accordingly. + +13,176. Do some of the fishermen who deal at your shop have +pass-books?-Very few; but I think a great many of them keep +accounts themselves. I never saw many men settling who did not +know what quantity of meal they had had. + +13,177. Have you sometimes objected to the trouble of keeping +pass-books for the men?-I don't recollect doing that, but I +might have said that it was vexatious. I think there were two or +three cases in which I was anxious that the people should have +pass-books, and I began them with them. They came with them +for a certain time, but then they would come without the book, and +that confused me altogether. However, I never was very much +asked to keep pass-books for them, and the fact is that it would +have been almost out of my power to have attended to them. I am +frequently out of the shop, and there are days when the men are +coming ashore in large numbers, on which we could scarcely have +time to mark down the meal. + +13,178. Have you a fixed day in the week for giving out meal?- +We have had a fixed day for some years back. Formerly we had +no particular day, but we could not get them to understand the +quantity of meal that was to be disposed of; and as there are some +people to whom we only allow a certain quantity of meal per +week, we have found it better to fix a particular day on which they +are to come for it. People who have credit, or who have money in +Mr. Bruce's hands, can come any day and get what they please, so +that there are scarcely any days in the week when some is not +given out; but the bulk is given out on a particular day, generally +on a Friday. + +13,179. You said just now that certain people had to be restricted +to a given quantity of meal: are these people who are in debt?- +Yes, and people who have been in debt. If it had not been for that +restriction, there are some people on the estate who were in debt +not long ago, and who would still have been in debt. + +13,180. I thought it was because they were in debt that you +restricted them?-No; we restricted some because they might +have got into debt. We just gave them an allowance sufficient to +support them through the week; but if we had given them more, or +given them what they wanted, they would have taken double the +quantity. These, however, are only a few individuals; in general +the people are much more careful. + +13,181. When you put parties on an allowance in that way, are +they generally people who have had a balance against them at +settlement the year before?-Generally they are. Some of them +may have been in debt £8 or £10, and some as high as £20, and it +is these people we put on an allowance in order to try to keep +them going. + +13,182. Do people who have no balance against them, and who +can get an unlimited supply of meal, come to you on Fridays along +with the rest?-Sometimes, and sometimes not; they just come as +they choose. + +13,183. Do they frequently not come to you at all for meal?- +There are few of them who don't come for meal; but the +greater part of the men at Dunrossness are generally in good +circumstances, and have the command of money, and they +generally buy their meal in Lerwick, or where they can get it +cheapest. + +13,184. In looking at your books last night, of course I did not find +the prices for meal entered for the year 1871?-No. + +13,185. But I saw that a lispund of bear meal in 1870 was charged +at 4s. 6d.?-I think the lispunds were 4s. 4d., and the quarter bolls +4s. 6d. + +13,186. I noticed also that you sometimes charged what you call a +lispund at a different price?-Yes; when we break a boll and sell it +in quarters, we generally call it a lispund. Sometimes two or three +men may get a boll and divide it among themselves, and it is +generally charged to them as lispunds. That accounts for the +lispund sometimes being charged at one price and sometimes at +another. + +13,187. When you do actually weigh out a quarter boll, you charge +it at 4s. 6d.?-We seldom weigh that out. They take the boll and +divide it among themselves; we seldom weigh it. + +13,188. When the prices are not entered until the end of the +season, how do you know whether to charge for a quarter boll +or for a lispund, when you have put it in your book in the first +instance as a lispund in both cases?-I had slips of paper or a little +pass-book, and when we gave the meal out we had a line for the +boll weight and a line for the lispund. + +13,189. What is done with the lines?-We have some of them yet. + +13,190. Do you file them?-No. We rule the small pass-book, and +have a place in which we enter the lines, so many for lispunds, so +many for bolls, and so many for quarter bolls, or whatever it may +be. + +13,191. Do you call that book the weighing-book?-Yes. It is +generally only part of the meal that is entered there. + +13,192. When you are putting in the prices at the end of the season +do you go over all the entries in that book, and all the entries in the +ledger account as well?-There is a great deal of the meal that we +never keep any slips for, but just enter it direct into the ledger and +we know which of these people are getting lispunds, and which are +getting quarter bolls. + +13,193. How do you know that?-At the beginning of the season +we know quite well the people we are giving the meal to regularly, +and those who just get it as they come. + +13,194. Are there certain people who always get it in lispunds, and +others who always get it in quarter bolls?-Yes. + +13,195. And you know which is which?-Yes, because the people +who get it regularly generally get it in lispunds; and sometimes if +we give them a boll or half a boll, we mark it in the ledger at once. + +13,196. Then you say that bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 4d. +per lispund, and 4s. 6d. per quarter boll?-I think so. + +13,197. And a lispund of oatmeal in 1870 was 5s. 6d.?-I think it +was 22s. per boll, or 11s. 6d. per half boll, but I cannot say exactly. +I think the price per lispund was 5s. 4d. + +13,198. Then the entry which I noted of half a lispund of oatmeal +in 1870-2s. 9d., would be for one half of a quarter boll?-I +would suppose so; but I could not be sure about that unless I saw +the entry. + +13,199. But although you saw the entry, that would not help +you?-It would not, but I could not say anything positive about +that. + +13,200. I received this piece of half-bleached cotton from you +[showing], which you sell at 41/2d. a yard?-Yes. + +13,201. Also this piece [showing], which you sell at 8d.?-Yes. + +[Page 327] + +13,202. And this piece of shirting [showing], which you sell at +1s.?-Yes. + +13,203. These were all got from J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow?- +Yes. + +13,204. You sell your tobacco at 4d. per oz.?-Yes. We have two +kinds, both sold at 4d. or 15d. per quarter lb. + +13,205. Is that the price, whether it is entered in the account or +sold for cash?-We very seldom sell for cash, but the price is the +same in both cases. + +13,206. Do you not take cash in the shop at all?-Yes, we take it if +we get it; but we never have the chance of getting much of it. We +get a few shillings occasionally. I don't think we get so much cash +in the course of the year as will pay for postages. + +13,207. That shows that your business is entirely for the supply of +your own fishermen?-Entirely; and Mr. Bruce was never inclined +to increase the trade as a shop trade. It is only to accommodate the +fishermen that the things are kept. + +13,208. That is to say, it is to accommodate those who do not have +money with which to go elsewhere?-Yes. The men, on coming +ashore, do not have time to go for lines and supplies to some other +place; but it would be better for Mr. Bruce and the whole concern +if there was no store there at all. + +13,209. Do you mean to say that there is no profit on goods?- +There is a profit on the goods, but the shop cannot pay the people +that have to attend to it. + +13,210. Are you paid by salary for your attention to the shop, or +have you an interest in the sale of the goods?-I have no interest +in the sale of the goods at all. + +13,211. You sell your 2-lb. lines for 2s. 2d.?-Yes. + +13,212. You sell your best sugar for 6d.?-Yes. During the +summer, until the end of the season, it was 61/2d.: but now they +get sugar of the same kind for 6d. + +13,213. You purchase it from Greenock-two cwt. at a time?-I +cannot exactly say where the last sugar came from. We had an +agent in Glasgow to buy it from Greenock, and I understand he did +so. + +13,214. I observed an entry in December 1871-1 lb. sugar, 6d.: +was that the best?-Yes. That was part of the last sugar we broke +up. + +13,215. That sugar was invoiced to you on 14th September +1871?-I think so; but the sugar had been higher in the course +of the year. + +13,216. What was the price at which sugar sold in your shop in +1870?-I think it was 61/2d., because the price of sugar was higher +then. We had the finest sugar in 1870 as high as 7d., but never +above that. + +13,217. Do you keep only one kind of sugar?-No, we have more +than one kind. It is not always alike. We have two different kinds +of sugar. + +13,218. I show you an invoice dated 12th May 1870, +1 cask sugar + 2 1 25 + 18 + 2 1 7 + at 42s. 6d. + £4, 18s. 4d. + Grutness shop debtor, £6, 1s. 41/4d. + +At what price did you sell that sugar per lb.?-I think it was 61/2d. + +13,219. What would be the freight of it from Greenock to here?-I +could not say. I think Mr. Bruce keeps the freight accounts. + +13,220. The sum of £6, 1s. 41/4d. is entered against the shop: is that +the sum you were to realize by the sale of that sugar?-Yes. + +13,221. Or does it merely indicate the price and the expenses, +leaving you to fix the selling price yourself?-No; I think that is +what was expected to be realized, and all expenses and inlake have +to come off that. I think that is the net sum that must be realized +after expenses and inlake. + +13,222. Was there no more than that realized from the sugar +contained in that invoice?-I could not say. I have not tried that +particularly. + +13,223. You have shown me two invoices of meal, one August +12th, and the other August 23d, 1870, from Jonathan Mess; one for +10 bolls oatmeal at 19s., and the other for 15 bolls at 17s. 9d.: I +suppose the difference in price between these two is to be +accounted for by the variation in the market price at that time?- +Yes. + +13,224. Was that meal which you got in August the dearest +purchase of the year?-I don't remember. + + [Produces invoices, showing the following purchases in +1870:- + April 1, 25 bolls of oatmeal at 15s. + " 1, 1 " " " 15s. + " 22, 20 " " " 15s. 6d. + June 3, 40 " " " 16s. 3d. + " 14, 60 " " " 16s. 3d. + Aug. 12, 10 " " " 19s. + " 23, 15 " " " 17s. 9d. + +Those are the prices at Aberdeen, exclusive of the cost for bags, +which were charged separately.] + +13,225. Was that the whole supply of meal for 1870?-Yes. + +13,226. Had you a stock in hand at the beginning of the year?- +None. + +13,227. I think you said before that you had very few sales before +April?-Yes; we do very little in meal before the fishing begins. + +13,228. What quality of oatmeal is contained in these invoices?- +It is meal ground entirely from Scotch home-grown oats. A great +part of the meal that comes to this country is grown from foreign +oats, and is not nearly so good, and it can be bought far cheaper. + +13,229. Was the oatmeal of the best quality which you sold for 5s. + 4d. per lispund, or 5s. 6d. per quarter boll?-Yes. + +13,230. Do you know anything about the freights from +Aberdeen?-I think Mr. Bruce will be better able to speak to +that than I can. + +13,231. You get your tobacco from Mr. Henry Christie, +Edinburgh?-Yes. + +13,232. Have you charge of the despatch of goods to Fair Isle +when +they are required?-Yes. When the vessel is going I supply the +man's orders if the things are in Mr. Bruce's shop. At times we +have to buy trifling things at other shops to supply the people with. + +13,233. I noticed in your Fair Isle order-book an entry of 2 cwt. +soap ordered from Hedly & Co., Newcastle, on 30th August 1871: +at what price would that be retailed in Fair Isle?-At 6d. per lb. + +13,234. Have you the invoice price of that?-No, not in 1871: but +it was very similar to the price in 1870. We generally got the finest +extra pale brown soap. [Produces invoice of 18th August 1870, +showing the price of soap at that time to be 28s. per cwt.] + +13,235. In the same order-book there is an entry of 4 cwt. soft +sugar, ordered on 30th August 1871 for Fair Isle: at what rate +would that be sold there?-If it is the same quality as ours, it +would very likely be sold at 7d.; it would be at least a halfpenny +dearer in Fair Isle, to cover the expense of freight. + +13,236. But you don't know what was the quality of sugar that you +sent to Fair Isle in August 1871?-No; we never break up the +casks, but the quality ordered would be the same as the common +brown which we order for ourselves. + +13,237. Are the whole supplies to Fair Isle furnished by Mr. +Bruce?-He generally furnishes what is ordered by the factor. + +13,238. Do you know whether the factor has instructions to +prevent any one else from trading with the inhabitants?-I don't +think he has very positive instructions on the subject, because he +could not prevent it. Mr. Bruce and I were there this year, and at +that time two vessels came to trade. We saw them there, but +could not prevent them. One pretty large sloop came down from +Westray, belonging to a man called Luggie; and Rendall came also +and traded during the whole night when I was asleep. We did not +know that he was doing anything until he was under weigh, and +when the vessel was off we saw that he had half-a-dozen cattle +on board. Rendall goes from house to house [Page 328] on the +island, and trades with the people just like a hawker. + +13,239. Are the inhabitants prohibited from selling their cattle to +Rendall, or to any other outside trader?-I think they were made +aware that Mr. Bruce wanted the preference of the cattle from +people who were in debt; but it is generally those individuals who +are in debt who try to slip off their cattle in that way when they +have a beast to dispose of. The people who are well to do on the +island give Mr. Bruce the preference willingly. + +13,240. Do you purchase cattle for Mr. Bruce?-Merely in the way +of business. He was in the south when the public sales took place +this year, and I and his grieve did purchase a few beasts for him. +Our only object in doing so was to keep up the sales, so that the +tenants might get a better price for their cattle. + +13,241. Like other merchants in Shetland, does Mr. Bruce +purchase a number of cattle for re-sale?-No: he never drives +a trade of that kind. He has four cattle sales in the year, and he +buys his cattle generally at these sales: which have been the +means of keeping up the price of cattle in this end of the country +ever since he began them. + +13,242. Are cattle frequently taken by Mr. Bruce in liquidation of +a debt due by a tenant?-Those tenants who are in debt, and who +have cattle, are generally requested to bring them to a public sale. + +13,243. When a man is in arrear, is he asked to do that?-Yes, +when he has a beast to dispose of. These are Mr. Bruce's +instructions. + +13,244. Do you recollect one Thomas Wilson in Fair Isle being +forbidden to sell a cow to Rendall?-The factor may have +forbidden him, but, so far as I know, neither Mr. Bruce nor I did +so. + +13,245. Did you know of a cow of Thomas Wilson's being brought +over and sold here for £4, 1s.?-Yes. I remember that transaction +quite well, for he wanted me to buy the cow for Mr. Bruce; but I +thought as he had come out of the island with her himself, the best +way to give him a fair chance of selling his cow was to allow him +to take her to the public sale and put her up to auction. He said he +had had an offer of £5, 10s. from Rendall, but I said I did not think +the animal was worth it. + +13,246. Do you think he was really offered £5, 10s.?-It was £4, +10s. he said he was offered, and Mr. Bruce of Vinsgarth bought the +cow for £4, 1s. at the sale. + +13,247. Then he only lost 9s. by not taking Rendall's offer?-Yes; +and I only had his own word for it, that he had been offered that. + +13,248. Are you quite sure it was not £5, 10s. that Wilson said he +had been offered?-Yes, I am sure it was £4, 10s. + +13,249. Did she not look like a cow that anybody would offer £5, +10s. for?-No: she was sold too high as it was. I bought far +cheaper cattle than that for Mr. Bruce. When the cow was sold +Wilson was quite satisfied with the price + +13,250. Would you be surprised to hear that the meal at Grutness +is very often sold at 4s. a boll dearer than the same meal had been +got for in Lerwick?-I would be rather surprised at that. It cannot +be the same quality of meal if that is the case. + +13,251. Do you say that it is not the case?-I cannot say what they +may sell their meal for at Lerwick. The men sometimes go to +Lerwick with money, and bargain to get goods under the market +price. I have seen that done, and a handle of that may be made in +Lerwick. + +13,252. Are you aware whether the tenants on the Sumburgh estate +have been offered leases and refused them?-Yes. + +13,253. If they had got leases, would they have released them from +the obligation to fish for their landlord?-I don't think Mr. Bruce +would have given lease of that kind unless he had raised the rents +on his property, because it is on account of the fishing that he does +not raise them as it is. + +13,254. Do you understand that the farms are let at a lower rent in +consequence of the men being obliged to fish?-Yes. I think Mr. +Bruce would get higher rents if that was not the case. + +13,255. Do you know whether these [showing paper headed, +'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate'] are +the rules that were laid down for the management of the +property?-Yes. + +13,256. I believe very few of the men have accepted them?-None +at all, to my knowledge. + +13,257. But that contains no obligation about fishing?-No; but +the thing in it which the men object to is the last paragraph: +'Subject to the above rules, the landlord reserves right to take into +his own hands any part of his estate at any time on giving the +tenant legal notice.' The men object to that, and I think I would +do the same if I was taking a lease. + +13,258. Do you understand that if the men agree to these +regulations they would be free from the obligation to fish, or is +that obligation referred to in the clause, 'The tenant shall be +bound to observe the rules generally in force on the property for +the time being?'-Of course it would be considered that they +would still have to deliver their fish to Mr. Bruce at the current +rate of the country; but although they have no leases, there is no +man who has been annoyed on the property since the young laird +had the management of it. + +13,259. Have you sometimes heard the men complaining that they +only got lispund weight?-Sometimes they did, but sometimes +when we had to give them pecks we could not afford to give more. + +13,260. When you sell pecks do you charge boll price?-No, we +charge it little beyond that; but if we retail meal out in peck weight +we lose a great deal. + +13,261. Supposing 5s. 6d. was the quarter boll price in 1870, what +would be the price of a peck?-We would not weigh it out in that +way. + +13,262. What would be the price of a peck if it was weighed out? +Would it be 1s. 41/2d.?-It would be somewhere thereabout; but +there is not so much inlake [sic] in weighing out small quantities +of meal as there is in other things. + +13,263. But if you were selling a peck of meal when the price was +5s. 6d. per quarter boll, what would you charge for the peck?-I +suppose it would be 1s. 4d. + +13,264. That would be a 1/2d. less than the quarter of quarter +boll?-Yes, I think I would charge about that. + +13,265. Then is there any foundation for the statement of the +men, that they only got lispund weight at the boll price when they +bought it in pecks?-There might be but I could not say as to that. +It might have happened in some cases. + +13,266. But that would be intended to cover the loss in weighing +out?-If we take a sack of meal and weigh it out in lispunds and +pecks, there is a great inlake [sic] and often when the meal comes +wet there is some of it lost in transport, and when it lies long there +is a great deal lost in the stores by vermin and in other ways, and +the inlake [sic] must be met in some way. + +13,267. Do you always read over the accounts of the men to them +before settlement?-Generally. + +13,268. Do you check them along with the men?-Yes; and Mr. +Bruce never enters the amount of their accounts until the men are +satisfied with them. + +13,269. You hand in the total amount of a man's account at the +shop to Mr. Bruce in order that it may be entered in Mr. Bruce's +own ledger for settlement with the man?-Yes. When Mr. Bruce +begins to settle, the Grutness ledger is brought up to the office, and +the accounts are added up and squared off. Mr. Bruce never enters +a shop account in his ledger until he and the men agree that it is +correct. Some of the men also have accounts of their own, and can +compare every article as it is entered in the shop ledger. + +13,270. Do you know what arrangements are made with the men +about boats and lines?-There is no arrangement. They furnish +their boats and lines for themselves. + +13,271. Is that so in all cases?-Yes. If a man is not able to buy +his boat, or when he is shifting, he [Page 329] goes to Mr. Bruce +before the fishing season begins and gets an order for a new boat. + +13,272. Is he expected to pay that up by instalments?-He is not +asked for it until he settles matters at the twelvemonth's end. + +13,273. But is there a fixed instalment payable each year by a term +of years, or is it paid just as the man finds himself able to do so?- +There are some men with money to get who would be able to pay +up the whole price of their boat at the first settlement, or the +greater part of the price. That is seldom the case, but I have +known it to happen. Generally they get twelve months' credit, +and at the end of the twelve months any money that is due to them +is entered the same as cash to account in Mr. Bruce's books. Then +if a man cannot pay his way altogether, the balance is carried on +perhaps for several years. + +13,274. How long is it before a boat that is purchased in that way +is usually paid for? would it be three or four years, or more or +less?-Of course it depends very much on the circumstances of the +men. If it is a poor man who has generally been behind, he may +have a balance this year against him, which may run on for half a +dozen years always increasing, and his share of the boat may be in +that balance. + +13,275. You mean that his share of the boat may be very long in +being paid, while the other shares may be paid up sooner?-Yes; +but the expense of a boat is not very great. I don't think one of the +boats we have would cost more than £3 for the whole affair-that +is, the material we give the order for. + +13,276. Do you mean to say that a boat for the longline fishing +costs only £3?-The material of it does. + +13,277. Do you not use the six-oared boats here?-They are +beginning to use the six-oared boats now, but they are very +expensive. There are two or three now. I think there were +some before Mr. Bruce came to the place, and now for the last +two years their use is becoming general. + +13,278. Has the fishing been carried on entirely with the small +boats hitherto?-Yes; and I believe the small boats in general +make most money. + +13,279. How many men are in each of those small boats?- +Generally three men, or two men and two boys. + +13,280. That is a different system from what prevails in other parts +of Shetland?-There is no difference, except that our men make +more money than they generally do in the north fishing, and there +are no men in Shetland who have to incur less expense for sea +material. + +13,281. Do you engage any fish-curers?-Yes, for Mr. Bruce. + +13,282. Is the fee fixed at the end of the year according to the +result of the fishing?-No; it is generally fixed at the beginning; +but when a heavy fishing occurs, we generally advance their wages +a little. + +13,283. Do these men and boys generally run an account at the +store?-Very little. I was observing from the books, that one man +had as high a fee as £10 last year, and £12 the year before, and this +year I think he is to have £10 again; and I don't think he has an +account of £1 in the book, or anything near it. All that he gets is a +mere trifle; a few shillings up or down. + +13,284. Do most of the people engaged in the curing get a large +part of their earnings in money?-Most of them do. There is +seldom a year when we do not have people from other estates +curing for us. We get them wherever we can; of course at as low a +rate as possible. They sign an agreement for the season, and then +they are paid according to that agreement generally at Martinmas. + +13,285. Are the tenants upon the estate bound to send their sons to +the curing?-They are not regularly bound, so far as I know; but it +is understood in the same way as with the fishing, that if a man has +a son, and we can afford to give him as much wages as another, we +are to get the preference. + +13,286. Have you interfered with any boys going to other +engagements, in order that you might have them for the curing?- +There was one case of that kind last year, with the son of William +Goudie. + +13,287. Had he got another engagement?-He was not engaged. +His uncle is manager at the station, and he wrote me saying that he +boy could get £3, 10s. of wages from another party, and that we +would not get him again unless we gave him that wage. That was +far higher for a boy's wage than we were in use to give, and I told +the boy to tell his father to come over and speak to Mr. Bruce or +me about it. The father came over and told Mr. Bruce and me that +the boy had been offered £3, 10s. and we distinctly told him that if +we could not afford to give him the same wages, he was at liberty +to go to any one he chose. I also said we could hardly believe that +he had got such a rise, but I told him, and Mr. Bruce also said, that +if he could get 1s. more we did not want the boy, and he could +engage him to any one he chose. The father went home, but he +thought that perhaps we would be displeased if he gave the boy to +another, and the boy went to the store. He went with his own +accord, and by his father's instructions, and remained the whole +season. He was a very good boy, and when he settled with Mr. +Bruce he gave him the same wages that he had stated, £3, 10s. +The father was a tenant of Mr. Bruce's, but at first we could +scarcely believe that the boy had got the offer of such a rise. + +13,288. Do you believe now that he got the offer of such a rise?- +Yes. The man was one of those who were examined in Lerwick, +and that was his declaration, and I believe it to be true. There have +been other cases where boys have not been interfered with when +they had engaged with another party. Last year one of Mr. Bruce's +tenants had a boy who was engaged with another party to cure fish, +and he would not come to us at all, and there was nothing said +about it. + +13,289. Is there any expectation on your part that the men whom +you employ in the fishing shall come for goods to your shop?- +No. We would rather be clear of it. The only trouble we have in +the matter is to keep some of them from coming too much to us. +They want more goods than we are inclined to give them. We +never lay in goods to induce them to come, while those who have +plenty of money go to other shops, and perhaps never come to us +at all. We never ask them to do so. + +13,290. Do you think you would get as many and as good men to +fish for you if you did not have the shop at all?-I think so. The +principal advantage which the shop is to them is that when they +are coming ashore they require fishing material, such as hooks, +twine, lines, and other things, at the place where they land, and +before they go to sea again. We endeavour to get the best of that +material for them, because there are always a great many +complaints made in Shetland about the quality of that material. +Two or three years ago, when I was south, I went to two or three of +the principal makers, and got hooks made on purpose for our trade. +We pay 41/2d. per 100 for them to the manufacturer above what +other merchants pay; and the other merchants sell their hooks at +2s. 4d. per lb, while we sell them at 2s. 6d., being a loss to us of +21/2d. upon every 100 hooks that we sell, over what is charged by +our neighbours. + +13,291. That is to say, you get 21/2d. less profit than other +merchants do?-Yes. I also made arrangements for lines and +twine being made specially for us in the same way. For 2-lb. +lines, although we try to keep a better article, we charge only 2s. +2d., while I find that other parties charge 2s. 3d. for the same +thing; and our articles are better, because they are made specially +for us. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JOHN BRUCE, jun., +examined. + +13,292. You are a son of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and you hold a +tack from him of his property in Dunrossness?-Yes. + +13,293. You have prepared a statement on the subject [Page +330] of this inquiry which you wish to appear as part of your +evidence?-Yes. + +[The witness put in the following statement.] + +'The tenants on the property in this parish managed by me are +at liberty to go to sea or to the Greenland or Faroe fishing, or to +pursue any land occupation as they please; but if they remain at +home and go to the home fishing, they are expected to deliver their +fish to me and receive for it the full market value. This is one of +the conditions on which they hold their farms and is, I consider, +a beneficial rule for the fishermen. They must fish to some +merchant, and as I give them as high a price as they could get from +another, they are no losers, while I provide suitable curing and +fishing stations, and these stations of mine are the most convenient +places for them to deliver their fish. + +'I am obliged to keep stores at some of the fishing stations for +the convenience of the fishermen, to supply them with fishing +gear, groceries, and other things which they may require. But no +fisherman is expected or wished to take anything from these stores +unless it is his wish to do so. + +'Any fisherman can get the full value of his fishing in money +from me at any time if he wishes it. I have never once refused to +pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money. And, in fact, +there are many cases in which fishermen take nothing whatever +out of my stores, but receive the full value of their fishing in cash. + +'I have also fishing for me fishermen who are not my tenants, +and over whom I have no control; and these are treated in every +respect the same as my own tenants. + +'Prior to 1860 the tenants on the property managed by me were +permitted to fish to any one they liked, and the people were very +much in debt, both to the landlord and to the various merchants to +whom they fished-and, for the most part, could not pay their +rents. + +'The debts to the landlord averaged two years' rents over the +whole property. + +'On account of the general state of bankruptcy, I was obliged +to take the fishing into my own hands, and I consider the people +now to be in a much more flourishing state. + +'For the most part, fishermen are quite satisfied with having their +accounts read over to them. But those fishermen who ask for +copies of their accounts at settlement always get them, and the +books are always open for them to refer to at any after-time. + +'With regard to the prices charged at the stores, the goods I keep +are in all cases of the best quality, and may be a little higher-priced +than goods of the same description but of inferior quality, but I am +not aware that anything is charged unreasonably +high. + +'NOTE.-The only grievance of which my tenants can complain is, +that they are obliged to fish to me. This, I will endeavour to show, +is no grievance at all, but an advantage to the fishermen. + +'In looking over the whole of Shetland, it will be found that the +most prosperous districts are those under the direct management +of the landlords. + +'Many of the fishermen in this country (as indeed many of the +poorer classes everywhere) are unable, from want of thrift and care +to manage their own matters in a satisfactory manner, and require +to be thought for and acted for, and generally treated like children, +and are much better off under the management of a landlord who +has an interest in their welfare, than they would be if in the hands +of a merchant whose only object was to make a profit out of them. + +'A merchant who has no control over the fishermen, may, in some +cases wish to get them and keep them in his debt, in order to +secure their custom; but the case of a landlord also a merchant is +quite different. It is his interest to have a prosperous, thrifty, and +independent tenantry; and he will use his utmost endeavour to +keep them out of debt, and to encourage saving habits. + +'I can see no reason why the fact of a man being a landlord should +prevent him from being also a merchant and fish-curer; and if so, +why he should not secure a lot of good fishermen by making it one +of the conditions of occupancy by his tenants, that if fishermen +they shall fish to him. + +'The very fact of a landlord being a fish-curer would lead up to +this, for tenants would naturally wish to stand well with their +landlord, and other conditions being equal, would prefer to give +him their fish. + +'The same thing is done everywhere else. In Orkney, in many +estates, the tenants are obliged to manufacture a certain quantity of +kelp, and to deliver it to the landlord at a certain fixed price, which +leaves the landlord a large profit. + +'In many counties in England and Scotland, farmers are required +to send their grain to mills belonging to landlords, and to perform +certain services, such as cartage for the landlord, either free or at +a low fixed rate. I can see no greater hardship in a Shetland +landlord letting his farms to tenants who will fish to him, than in +a south-country manufacturer letting his cottages to tenants who +will work to him. + +'There are, no doubt, many things in the Shetland system of trade +which might be improved; but the system has been of long growth, +and is so engrained in the minds of the people, that any change +must be very gradual; a sudden and sweeping change to complete +free-trade principles and ready-money payments would not suit the +people, but would produce endless confusion, hardship, and +increased pauperism. + +'Under the present system, our small rentals and large +population, our poor-rates are very high. But the landlords +support a great many families which would otherwise be +thrown on the rates. + +'It is no uncommon thing, where a family is deprived of its +breadwinner, for the landlord to support the family till the younger +members grow up, and are abler to provide for themselves, and +repay the landlord's advances. + +'Abolish the present system suddenly, and I am afraid our +poor-rates would become unbearable, and nothing would save the +country but depopulation. + +'It has never been the habit in Shetland to fix the price to be paid +for the fish till after the fishing is over. Complaints have been +made against this, and I do not defend the practice, but I believe it +to be popular with fishermen; and I believe, on the whole, they +receive more money for their fish under the present practice they +would if an engagement at a fixed price was always entered into at +the commencement of the season. + +'If you ask a fisherman if he has a grievance, he will be sure to +try and find one for you; but I do not believe that the respectable +part of my tenants find it to be any grievance their being obliged to +fish to me.* + +[Page 331] + +13,294. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. +Irvine?-Yes. + +13,295. Has he explained correctly, so far as you have heard, the +manner in which the business is carried on at Grutness?-His +statement was substantially correct; but I could satisfy you on +some of the points that he did not know about. + +13,296. There was a question asked about a Thomas Aitken, +whether he had signed any special obligation with regard to +fishing?-I am not aware that he ever did. It would not be +usual to make him sign any agreement with regard to that. + +13,297. Was there any agreement signed with regard to the fishing +when you were in partnership with Mr. Grierson?-None that I am +aware of with regard to the men, and I know of no special +agreement with Thomas Aitken. + +13,298. Was there any agreement with any of the men?-No. The +only persons who sign agreements are fishermen who do not +belong to the property I manage + +13,299. Are agreements signed with them?-Yes. In the case of a +man coming to me for an advance of money, I occasionally make +him sign an agreement to fish for the rising year, in case he may +take the advance of money from me and then go somewhere else. + +13,300. Do men from adjacent properties sometimes come to you +for an advance in that way?-Yes. + +13,301. Do they get advances from you in money or in supplies?- +In money or in goods, but generally in money; and in these cases +agreements are sometimes written out. + +13,302. Do you remember James Brown being told by you the +reason why his farm was advertised to be let?-Yes; but I am +not very clear about the time. + +13,303. Was it about ten or twelve years ago?-I don't think it +was so long ago as that. There were two men, James Brown +and William Irvine, at Toab; I either advertised their farms, or +threatened to advertise them. + +13,304. For what reason did you do that?-I am not very sure that I +can recollect. I don't think it was for selling fish. I think it was +for breaking some rule. + +13,305. Was it not because he (Brown) had sold some fish to +Robert Leslie, Messrs. Hay's factor?-I think not. I think it was +for declining to assist to cure some fish in spring; but if James +Brown swears it was for selling fish, that may have been the case. + +13,306. In what way do you fix the average price of meal for a +year?-We take what other people are charging in Lerwick and +elsewhere; and after considering the quality of the meal, and our +extra expense upon it, we charge what we think it can reasonably +bring, without any regard to the cost price of it. + +13,307. Do you not take the cost price into consideration at all?- +Of course it is an element, but not the principal element, in fixing +the price. + +13,308. You think you are entitled at Grutness to put an additional +charge on the meal above what it is in Lerwick, in respect of the +risk and expense of carriage?-Yes. Then the price at Lerwick, is +a cash price always, while at Grutness it is a credit price. + +13,309. Do you mean that at Grutness the settlement for the meal +sold does not take place until the end of the year?-Yes; that is +one reason why the meal is a little dearer at Grutness than it is at +Lerwick, because when a man goes to Lerwick he goes with the +money in his hand, and pays for the meal at the time as a rule. + +13,310. But at Grutness it is usually settled for as against fish?- +Yes; but very often it is supplied long before the fish are there to +meet it. + +13,311. Mr. Irvine has said the supplies generally begin in +April, and the fish begin to be caught in April or May?-Yes; +the summer fishing begins about 15th May. + +13,312. The fish are not paid for either until the following +spring?-No. + +13,313. So that the fish are bought at a credit price, and the meal is +sold at a credit price?-Yes; when the accounts are balanced. + +13,314. But the fish with which the meal is really paid for are in +your hands all the time?-They may or they may not be. + +13,315. Are they not in your hands from the time they are +caught?-Yes; but a man may have money to his credit with +me, or he may be in debt when he gets the meal. + +13,316. But the fish are not paid for to the fisherman at a credit +price?-No. + +13,317. Then why should the meal be charged a credit price any +more than the fish?-Perhaps there is no good reason for it. The +reason would only hold good when the man is in debt. + +13,318. Are the men as often in debt as not?-No. My people are +pretty free from debt. I should say that not over one in six or seven +is in debt. + +13,319. What is the freight of meal from Lerwick?-I think it is +11d. per boll in the steamer from Aberdeen to Lerwick; 1d. for +landing at Lerwick; 4d. from Lerwick to Grutness by the packet; +and 1d. for landing at Grutness. + +13,320. Do you sometimes bring your meal direct from Aberdeen +to Grutness by a packet?-I have once done so. I had a vessel +coming up at any rate, and she took load of meal on board. + +13,321. You say in your statement that you have never refused to +pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money: I presume that +means at settlement?-Yes, at settlement, or if wanted before. + +13,322. If a man applies for money before settlement, do you +consider how much is reasonably due to him at that period of the +year?-If he is a good man, I would give him any sum he asked +for. If he was a man I was doubtful of, I would only give him the +amount he had at his credit, but he might get that full amount at +whatever time he asked for it. + +13,323. In these circumstances, is there any reason for the +complaint of the men, that they cannot get their money until +settling time?-There is none. + +13,324. The settlement last year was protracted as late as April: is +that usual?-It is not usually so late as April. The settlements are +generally finished by March. + +13,325. Can you suggest any reason why the settlements with the +men in Shetland should not generally be at an earlier period than +that?-It is merely a matter of convenience. The settlements +could be earlier if the men so wished it; but I don't know that it +would do any good although they were earlier. + +13,326. With regard to Fair Isle, is there a standing prohibition +against other traders dealing with the inhabitants [Page 332] +there?-To a certain extent there is. I don't object to people +trading there if they confine themselves to hosiery and eggs, and +that sort of thing; but what I am afraid of is, that persons may go +there and buy fish. + +13,327. The inhabitants there are under an obligation, as a +condition of their tenure, to fish for you?-Yes. + +13,328. As the landlord, do you place a restriction upon the sale of +their cattle also?-Yes, there is a rule to that effect, but it is a very +lax one. + +13,329. Is it not virtually the result of the obligation to fish or to +sell cattle to the proprietor alone, that the proprietor has the power +of fixing the price, and that the tenant has no option at all with +regard to that in either case?-That is not the result. Even +although the proprietor buys the cattle and prevents any one else +from competing with him, still he respects public opinion so far, +that he gives the full value for the animal. + +13,330. Then public opinion is the only check upon the proprietor, +and of course his own sense of right?-That is his only check. + +13,331. How do you ascertain the current price of fish, according +to which you pay your men at the end of the year?-There is an +understanding among the principal fish-curers with regard to that. + +13,332. Is there a consultation upon the subject?-Yes, either +directly or indirectly, and they all pay the same. + +13,333. Do you send your fish Scotland generally, or do you send +them abroad?-I send them principally to Ireland. Our fishing +here is principally for saith, which is not carried on to any great +extent in any part of the country except in this parish; and that kind +of fish only finds a market in Ireland. + +13,334. Did you pay as high a price for saith last year as Mr. Smith +and Mr. Tulloch?-No. I have not settled yet for last year. + +13,335. But you did not get such a price for your saith last year as +would justify you in paying so high a rate?-I did not; and I can +explain the reason. These small curers send their fish away in +retail lots, and realize a price for them that no large curer can get. + +13,336. Have the small curers more trouble in selling?-They have +much more trouble; but they do the work themselves, and they +don't take that into account. + +13,337. Does that not show that fishermen curing on a small +scale on their own behalf might realize higher prices if they +could cure equally well with the large curers?-Not if all the +fishermen were on that footing. Unless they entered into some sort +of co-operation, they could not get their fish sent to market at all. + +13,338. Would they not be likely to sell them through travellers +coming up for the purpose of buying fish?-Yes. + +13,339. The returns with which you are to furnish me will apply to +the year 1870, as you have not yet settled for the year 1871?-Yes. + + *Mr Bruce afterwards put in the following additional +statement:- + I may here mention that stores such as I keep at the stations +for the convenience of the fishermen do not pay as a speculation, +though we could not very well carry on the business without them. +For instance, the store at Grutness, some of the accounts of which +you examined, would show a balance-sheet thus- + Gross value of goods charged against the shop at retail prices + during season 1870 £410 11 21/2 + Cost value of goods at the various + markets. £313 0 10 + Freights on do. 28 16 4 + 12 tons coals at 21s. allowed to + storekeeper; say fire and light 15 0 0 + Wages to storekeeper-I pay + £70 say for store 40 0 0 + Nominal profit, say 13 14 0 £410 11 21/2 + + But against this nominal profit has to be placed rent of +shop, and house occupied by storekeeper, incidents such as +stationery, wrapping paper, twine, furniture, etc., interest on +capital invested in goods, loss in retailing goods, bad debts, +and loss by deterioration of goods on hand. + These figures are not supposed to be exactly correct, but they +are substantially so, and at all events are near enough to show that +these stores, as managed by me, do not pay, and would certainly +never be kept with a view to profit were they not required as a +matter of convenience. + In a place like Fair Isle, with a population of only 226, there is +only room for one store. + As I have to keep a store there for the convenience of the +islanders, I discourage them from trading with any one else, as the +only chance to make my store pay is to get the whole or the greater +part of their custom. + Though there is a rule that the islanders shall not trade with +others, I have never enforced this rule where I believed the parties +visiting the island did not attempt to buy fish-in fact, in many +cases I have given liberty to parties to trade with the islanders; and +the only case in which I have enforced the rule, as in the case of a +man from Orkney who, I had evidence to prove, stole my fish from +the station at night, and shipped it on board of his vessel. + I have no poor-rates and no paupers in Fair Isle, and I have +never evicted a tenant. If a widow or other poor person can't pay +their rents they sit rent free, and get help from their friends, and +my manager has orders to see that no one starves. + I may mention that I have some property of my own in +Sandwick parish where the tenants are free to fish to whom they +like, and they do not fish for me; but they pay good rents, and are +not in arrears. + I also manage a property in the parish of Cunningsburgh +belonging to my father. It consists of 69 holdings, at a rental of +£194, 19s. 7d. and the arrears of rent due on the property when I +took the management of it in 1869 amounted to £487 10 3 + Since then I have received payment of £97 9 21/2 + And have written off in compromise + with tenants deeply in debt, sums + to the amount of 63 11 7 + Thereby reducing the balance to 326 9 5 + £487 10 3 + + These tenants are free to fish to whom they like, and none of +them fish to me. I have not yet evicted any tenant, and if they go +on as they are doing I may have to make no change; but should +they fail to pay their rents as in times past, I must either evict the +non-payers, or take the fishing into my own hands. + + JOHN BRUCE, jun. + SUMBURGH, SHETLAND, + 1<st. Feby>. 1872. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ROBERT HENDERSON +(recalled), examined. + +13,340. I understand you want to make some explanation of your +previous evidence?-Yes. I said that when we bought fish we paid +for them when they were delivered. As a rule we do, and any party +who wishes to be paid at once can be paid at once; but sometimes, +when a few men are going in one boat, they wish merely to have +the weight of the fish marked, and then have it squared off perhaps +in a month or two or at the end of the fishing. + +13,341. You are speaking now of the winter and spring fish?- +Yes. + +13,342. So that you have some accounts for fish?-Yes. + +13,343. And these may be liquidated partly by the men taking +goods?-Yes, just as they like. + +13,344. In these cases, is there a ledger account with the goods on +the one side and the fish on the other?-Yes, if the men choose to +have it so; but it is entirely at their own option whether they are to +be paid at once or whether the fish are to be put into the account. + +13,345. What may be the amount of these accounts generally?- +Will they be as much as £2 or £3?-Yes; sometimes £4 or £5. + +13,346. In some of these cases no cash may pass at all?-As a rule, +the men wish, to have the cash placed to the credit of their private +accounts; but if they wish cash at once they can get it. + +13,347. Will you have 20 or 30 of these accounts in a year?-No. +There may be four or five accounts for crews in that way, but they +are the exception. As a rule, we pay for the fish when we receive +them. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, OGILVY JAMIESON, +examined. + + +13,348. You are shopkeeper at Mr. Grierson's shop at +Quendale?-I am. + +13,349. Do you also act as factor or overseer on his property?- +Generally I do. + +13,350. Do you keep all the books connected with the fish-curing +and shop business?-Yes. + +13,351. How many fishermen are employed by Grierson?- +Perhaps from 80 to 100 hands, men and boys. + +13,352. How many do you employ in the curing?-Generally 14 or +16. + +13,353. When you take on a boy as a beach boy, is he paid by a +fee?-Yes. + +13,354. That is settled like the fishermen's accounts at the end of +the season?-Generally; but sometimes they want to know their +wages before and they are told what they are. + +13,355. Do you ever pay these fees as advances, or during the +course of the season?-Generally, when they require anything, +they get it from the shop, and the balance is paid in cash, or the +whole amount is paid in cash if they have taken no advances. + +13,356. I suppose a beach boy, or one employed in the fish-curing, +generally begins by opening an account and taking out supplies?- +Sometimes they do, and sometimes not. Some of them have not +taken out more than perhaps 2s. during the whole season. + +13,357. Do three-fourths of them run up accounts?-They +generally do to a small extent, but not to the full amount of +their wages. + +13,358. What is the average fee for a boy?-It is generally 30s. for +the first year, and it is advanced according as they are found to be +worth it. 50s. was the highest we paid the boys this year. + +13,359. Will a boy ever have 10s. or £1 to get at the end of the +year?-Yes, and sometimes more. I should wish to state that we +had a boy last-indeed we have had him for two years-over +whom we have no control. Last year he had 25s., and in the +present year he was engaged for 27s. but I paid him 30s. + +13,360. I understand there are some of the boys over whom you +have control?-Yes. + +13,361. That is to say, they are the sons of tenants?-Yes; and it is +one of the conditions of their holdings, that they have to supply +boys when they have them suitable for the purpose. + +13,362. That is one of the conditions, in the same way as it is a +condition of their holdings, that if the tenants themselves engage +in ling fishing at all, they shall fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes. + +13,363. Have you known any cases of boys engaged to other +employers who have been required by Mr. Grierson, or by you +on his behalf, to give up that engagement and come to you to +work at the beach?-There has been no case of that kind, to my +knowledge. + +[Page 333] + +13,364. Do you know James Jamieson at Berlin?-I do. + +13,365. Had he a son, a boy of thirteen, employed with you +lately?-Yes, last year. + +13,366. Are you aware that he had previously been engaged as a +servant to a neighbouring farmer, and that Mr. Grierson required +him to come and work at fish-curing?-I did not know that he was +engaged at all. + +13,367. Who engaged him for the curing?-I did. + +13,368. Did he not state to you that he was already engaged to +another master?-Not that I remember of. + +13,369. Do you know James Brown, Millpond?-Yes. + +13,370. Is he an elderly man now?-Yes. + +13,371. Is he engaged at the fishing?-No. + +13,372. Do you know whether he had to pay £1 of liberty +money?-He has not done so within the last year or two, to my +knowledge; but I think he paid it in 1869. However, I am not quite +clear about that. I know that I got notice about the liberty money, +and I think either he or his son went to Lerwick to Mr. Grierson +about it. + +13,373. Did he pay it?-I cannot say. + +13,374. Was he at that time an old man, and fishing with two +or three other old men, but not actively engaged in the summer +fishing?-He was not fishing at all, so far as I know. + +13,375. Then why had he to pay liberty money?-I don't know. +Perhaps it may have been on account of his son, but I cannot say. + +13,376. Would any transaction of that kind take place with Mr. +Grierson and not with you?-It might. + +13,377. Do you know Charles Eunson?-Yes. + +13,378. Had he to pay liberty money in 1867?-I cannot say; I +have only been three years in Mr. Grierson's employ, + +13,379. Is Brough on the Quendale estate?-Yes. + +13,380. Do you know James Shewan, who lives on the Brough +property?-Yes. + +13,381. Whom did he fish for last year?-I think he cured fish for +himself. He was fishing at Scatness, and I think he delivered his +fish to Hay & Co.; but I am not sure. + +13,382. Had he to pay £1 of liberty money at last settlement?- +Yes. + +13,383. Was that in January 1872?-I think it was before January; +but he paid it at the settlement. + +13,384. Have there been other cases of liberty money being +exacted and paid in 1871 and 1872?-There has been one other +case besides Shewan's. + +13,385. Why did these men choose to pay the fine rather than to +deliver their fish to you?-I cannot say. One man who pays it does +not fish at all, and I suppose they think they get value for it, or else +they would not pay it. + +13,386. Who pays it and does not fish?-William Gilbertson, the +Mails. + +13,387. You have not got the books connected with the fishing +business in your possession at present?-No; they are all in +Lerwick at present, except one daybook. + +13,388. I noticed an entry in one of your books this morning, of +one boll meal sold on 2d June 1870 at 16s. 6d.?-Yes, that was the +price at that time. + +13,389. Did the price vary much during that year?-Very +considerably. + +13,390. What would you consider a fair average of the price for +that year?-I think it was from 17s. 6d. to 22s. or 23s. per boll, so +far as I remember. + +13,391. Do you think 22s. or 23s. was the highest price during the +year?-I think so; but I am merely speaking from recollection. + +13,392. What is the price of a 2 lb. line at your shop?-2s. 3d.; 21/4 +lbs. is 2s. 6d.; 13/4 lbs, 2s.; and 11/2 lbs, 1s. 9d. + +13,393. How many kinds of tea do you keep?-Three kinds, which +we sell at 8d., 9d., and 10d. + +13,394. How many kinds of sugar?-Three kinds, which we sell at +5d., 6d., and 61/2d. + +13,395. What is the price of your tobacco?-1s. and 1s. 2d. per +quarter for mid and small tobacco. We sell it at 31/2d. and 4d. per +ounce for single ounces and 6d. and 7d. for two ounces. + +13,396. Do your men own their own boats?-Yes, entirely. + +13,397. You not hire out any boats?-Not any. + +13,398. Do you sell the boats to them?-No; they buy them for +themselves, or Mr. Grierson buys them for them. + +13,399. Do you make an advance to them for the purchase of +boats?-Yes; we generally give a line as security to any person +supplying boats to the men. + +13,400. Does the builder obtain the payment from you?-Yes. He +is paid direct by us in cash. + +13,401. Do you get repayment from the fishermen by +instalments?-Not by instalments; they sometimes pay it all +up in one year, but sometimes when a man is in arrears it runs +over a good many years before it is paid. The sum he is due for +his boat is included along with the rest of his dealings. + +13,402. Is it the small boats that are used at Quendale?-No; we +have mostly large boats now, which cost about £20. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, +examined. + +13,403. You keep the post office at Virkie near Sumburgh?-I do. +I am a tailor to trade. + +13,404. You are aware that the men in your neighbourhood are +under an obligation to fish for the tacksman of the estate and that +many of them deal at the shop at Grutness?-Yes. + +13,405. I presume there is no obligation upon them to purchase +their goods at that shop?-I suppose not, unless circumstances +compel them to do so. + +13,406. What circumstances compel them?-There are many of +them who have not got cash with which to go to any other place. + +13,407. Have you sometimes purchased goods at the Grutness +store yourself?-I have occasionally. + +13,408. Did you find the quality and the price good and +reasonable?-The price was generally higher than I could +purchase the goods for at any other place, and the quality was + sometimes as good and sometimes not so good. About a year +ago there was cotton at Grutness at 16d. a yard; but it had been +purchased during the time of the American War, when the price +was high, and the price was kept up still. I have some goods that +were given to me to supply Mr. Bruce's fishermen with including +some of that cotton, and I have never been told to reduce the price. + +13,409. Were you entrusted with that cotton to sell it?-Yes. I got +about £50 worth of cloth and furnishings about five years age to +supply to such tenants as had not the means to go to any other +place; and although the prices of cotton and wincies fluctuated +since I have continued to sell at the same price. Of course most of +it is gone now. + +13,410. But you have been selling it at that advanced price?-Yes. +The fishermen have taken it who had no other way of getting it. + +13,411. Have they taken it on credit?-Yes; most of it has been +given on credit. There were very few who have taken any of it +except those who had no money to go to any other place. + +13,412. If they had had money, would they have been able to get +exactly the same article at a cheaper rate?-The cloth was pretty +moderate, because, when I brought it from Grutness, Mr. Bruce +asked me how it would range with the cloth Mr. Henderson had. I +told him it was dearer, and he said he would take off some of the +price of it, for he meant to give the fishermen the same advantage +which they got in another shop; and the three pieces of cloth +which I got were reduced 1s. upon each yard. In that case no one +complained about the price of the cloth, only the furnishings were +higher. + +[Page 334] + +13,413. Is there any other article with regard to the price and +quality of which you can speak?-I have not dealt in Grutness for +some time, because I generally had money, and I bought my goods +elsewhere, where might get them cheaper. I got most of them +from Mr. Henderson, and some I got from Lerwick. + +13,414. Do you sometimes buy from Hay & Co.'s, shop at +Dunrossness?-Yes, + +13,415. Are some things cheaper there than at Grutness?-Some +things are and other things are much about the same. + +13,416. What things are cheaper?-Tea and sugar, and such things +as these. + +13,417. Is Hay & Co.'s shop nearer to you than Grutness?-Yes. + +13,418. Is it nearer to most of the people than Grutness?-Yes. +Grutness is rather out of the way. + +13,419. Do you know anything about a meeting that was held at +Grutness, some time ago?-I know there was a meeting of +fishermen held at the schoolhouse but I was not there. After the +meeting several of the men came to my house on their way home, +and spoke about what had taken place. They were generally +dissatisfied with the way in which the meeting had been +conducted. + +13,420. What was the occasion of the meeting?-It was in order +that they might lay their grievances before the commissioner at +Lerwick. I believe one of the men actually went there. + +13,421. Did you understand that the others were unwilling or +afraid to go?-I understood, from what they said, that they were +unwilling, for fear of offending their masters. They told me that at +the time. + +13,422. What did they say?-They accused some of their number +of cowardice. Some were frightened for one thing, and some for +another. + +13,423. What were they afraid of?-Just of offending their +masters; that was their principal idea. They were afraid they +might be warned. + +13,424. What was the complaint they had to make?-I believe +their principal complaint was about the bondage which they are +under. + +13,425. Do you think they have not so much to say about being +settled with only once a year?-Of course that was discussed too +and they thought it was not right. They thought the settlement was +made too late in the year. That was one of their objections; but the +principal thing was, that they wished their liberty to sell their +produce to any person who would pay the best price for it. + +13,426. Have you lived in Dunrossness all your life?-I have been +in Dunrossness all my life except twelve years, when I was south. + +13,427. Was your father a farmer or crofter and fisherman in +Dunrossness?-Yes. + +13,428. Before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his own hands, I +believe, the tenants were free?-No; the fishermen were bound +some forty-three years ago. My father held a croft then on the +estate of Brough, of which Mrs. Sinclair was proprietor, and she +bound him over to fish for Mr. Bruce at that time, although she +did not take the fishing herself. That fishing came to be the most +ruinous concern that ever happened to my family, because it +brought my father into debt that he might otherwise have been +clear of. + +13,429. How did it bring him into debt?-Because the fish were +not managed properly, and of course they came to be sold as bad +fish, and the men got nothing for them, or next to nothing. I heard +my father say that they got 3s. 11d. for dry fish in the last year of +the fishing, and they had to pay for salt and cure out of that. + +13,430. Could a free man, at that time have got more?-A free +man was getting from £9 to £10 a ton; and things came to such a +pass that the people got desperate. There were poor years at the +same time, and the men applied to their landlord, and got their +liberty on condition of paying 15s. a head of liberty money. That +was kept on until a few years ago, and then it was put into the rent +again. + +13,431. But it has only been since 1860 that the men have been +bound again to fish in this district for their landlord; they were free +before that time?-Yes, they were free for about twenty years. Of +course I have always been a free man, because I have not been a +fisherman. + +13,432. Have you known many men in your district being warned +in consequence of fishing for others than their landlord?-I have +not known many. + +13,433. Have you known men who would have fished for others if +they had not been afraid of being warned?-I suppose they would +have preferred that but warning comes to be a very serious thing +here. In the south a man can shift from town to town and get +employment: but here, if he leaves his house and farm, he has no +place to go to except Lerwick, and there is no room to be got there, +either for love or money. + +13,434. Do you know of any case where compulsion has been +used to oblige any of the men to deal at any of the stores in the +district?-I cannot say that I have. + +13,435. Do the men never get a hint to that effect?-No; but I +suppose they are obliged to go through necessity, because they +have no money with which to go anywhere else. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GEORGE M'LACHLAN, +examined. + +13,436. Are you the principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh +Lighthouse?-I am. + +13,437. Where do you get the supplies for your house?-I get most +of them from Aberdeen and Granton. + +13,438. Do you purchase them yourself?-Yes. + +13,439. They are not supplied by the Commissioners?-no. + +13,440. Have you got any supplies at the neighbouring shops?-I +have got very little from Grutness. + +13,441. Have you got any from Hay & Co.'s shop, from +Quendale?-No. I opened an account with Mr. Henderson +after I came; but I have only been here since 1st. July. + +13,442. Have you found Mr. Henderson's goods reasonable in +price?-Quite reasonable in price, and good in quality. + +13,443. How far is his shop from you?-About six or six and a +half miles. + +13,444. How far is Grutness from you?-About one and a quarter +mile, or a little more. + +13,445. How far is Hay & Co.'s shop?-About two and a quarter +miles. + +13,446. How far is Quendale from you?-I think about four miles. + +13,447. Why do you go so far as Mr Henderson's or Aberdeen, +or Granton for your supplies?-I opened an account at Mr +Henderson's shop, because I could get anything there that I +wished, and because Mr. Henderson was highly recommended to +me before I came to the country at all. + +13,448. Have you found the supplies at Grutness to be +expensive?-I never bought much there. + +13,449. Did you find that that shop was understood in the +neighbourhood to be an expensive one?-I have heard people +say so. + +13,450. Was that the reason why you did not get your goods +there?-Not particularly. One reason was because it was dear, +and another reason was that they cannot supply us with general +articles such as we want. I thought it was much better to open an +account with man who was reasonable in his charges, or who at +least was recommended to me as such, and a man who could +supply me with anything I wanted. + +13,451. What have you bought at Grutness or at the other shops?- +Sometimes I have bought small things such as tobacco, but my +wife has got most of the things we required. + +13,452. Have you bought any tobacco at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes. I +found it to be of ordinary quality. I think [Page 335] the price was +4s. 4d. per lb., as far as I can recollect but I am not quite sure, +because I never bought much there. I could have got tobacco of +about the same quality at Mr. Henderson's for 3s. 6d. I now +produce a piece of Mr. Henderson's very good tobacco., + +13,453. Have you bought tobacco at Grutness also?-Only very +little. I don't like the sort of tobacco that is kept there. There are +two kinds kept at Grutness: but the best quality is too small in twist +for smoking, and I don't care about teasing it up. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, LAWRENCE GARRIOCK, +examined. + +13,454. Are you a fisherman at Scatness?-I am. + +13,455. Are you bound to fish for anybody?-No. I have always +been at liberty. I am on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, +and I generally fish for Hay & Co. + +13,456. They are the factors on the estate?-Yes. + +13,457. Do you deal at their shop?-Yes, occasionally, when I +like. + +13,458. Do you pay your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes. + +13,459. Does he come down to settle at Dunrossness every year?- +Yes. He settles in a room above the shop at Laighness. + +13,460. Do you go through the shop to it?-Yes. + +13,461. Have you generally money to receive at settlement?-I +have had a little to receive for some years; but I run an account at +the shop, and I am almost always in debt. + +13,462. If you have got money to receive, is it paid to you in +cash?-Yes. I am paid in cash what is due. + +13,463. If there is anything due to you, do they ask you, as you +come through the shop, if you want any goods?-No, that is left to +my own choice. + +13,464. But it would be quite fair to ask?-Yes, but they don't do +it. + +13,465. Are you satisfied with the quality of the goods you get +there?-Yes. I never had any reason to complain about the +quality, and the price is something similar to what I could get +them for at other places. + +13,466. At Grutness, for instance?-I never had much dealings +there. It lies rather out of my way. + +13,467. Is Hay & Co.'s shop the most convenient shop for you?- +Yes. + +13,468. Have you ever dealt at Gavin Henderson's shop?-Yes, I +have tried it too. + +13,469. Are not his goods cheaper than Hay & Co.'s?-No; they +are much about the same. I could not say there was much +difference. I have bought meal, cottons, and tobacco from him, +land the difference in price was not worth mentioning. + +13,470. Do you keep a pass-book at Hay & Co.'s?-No. I just +trust to those who are serving me. + +13,471. Were you at a meeting of fishermen held at Scatness a few +weeks ago?-I was. + +13,472. What was the object of the meeting?-I could +scarcely say. The men assembled on purpose to give you (the +Commissioner) some information about how they were situated, +as you had come to Shetland to inquire into the matter; but when +they were met together, they appeared to be frightened to say +anything at all. Therefore the meeting was broken up, and every +man went home. + +13,473. How did it appear that they were frightened?-By the way +in which they behaved at the meeting. There was a paper drawn +up, and the men were to sign their names to it, but none of them +would sign their names except about a dozen or so. The rest +appeared to be very much frightened, and I told them so. + +13,474. What were they frightened of?-They did not say, at least +I did not hear them; but it was supposed they were frightened for +the proprietor giving them their warning. + +13,475. If they did not say it, how did you know they were +frightened for that?-Because none of them would sign their +names to the paper which was to be sent to you. + +13,476. They might not have had any grievance all?-They might +not; but all the men who were present wished to be at liberty to +fish, and they were frightened to sign the paper saying that they +wanted that. At least they appeared to be so, from not putting +down their names. + +13,477. Did not some of the men who were present come to +Lerwick?-Yes. One man went, and some others went when +they were summoned. + +13,478. How did you happen to be at the meeting when you were +not a bound man?-I went to see whether anything would be said +about the right of the landlord to take one-third of the whales +which are driven ashore. Occasionally whales are driven in from +the sea; and I have seen us commencing at six o'clock on summer +morning and working till late in the afternoon, or perhaps six at +night, in getting them secured. Then, when the whales were +flinched, the proprietor came in and took away one-third of the +proceeds, and we were rather dissatisfied about that. + +13,479. Do you think you ought to have got the whole?-Yes. + +13,480. Did you not flinch the whales upon his shore?-Yes, but +below high-water mark. + +13,481. Has it not been always the custom in Shetland that the +proprietor gets one-third of the blubber?-It has been so all my +time. + +13,482. Why do you submit that if it is not right?-The way we +submit to it is because they have told us that if we carried off all +the blubber they would raise the rent of the land we were +labouring. + +13,483. Who has told you that?-It has been said all my time. + +13,484. Has any proprietor ever told you that?-There are men +who have asked it and striven for it in my time. I have never done +it myself, although I was very much dissatisfied about it: but the +poor men are frightened to presume any further, for fear of the +land being further burdened upon them, and it is so much +burdened just now that we can scarcely pay for it. + + +Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ARTHUR IRVINE, +examined. + +13,485. Are you a fisherman at Garthbanks, on the Quendale +estate?-I am. + +13,486. You have handed in to me a document signed by 28 +fishermen on the Quendale property, stating that 'We, the +undersigned, hereby certify that we have been honourably dealt +with by Andrew J. Grierson, Esq. of Quendale, our present +landlord and fish-merchant; and it is our desire to continue with +him as our fish-merchant, and resolve that no other fish-curer in +Shetland will get our fish until he refuses to take them?'-Yes. + +13,487. How long have you fished for Mr. Grierson?-About 13 +years. + +13,488. Have you always sold your fish to him?-Yes. + +13,489. And have you always got a fair price for them?-I have +got the currency of the country. + +13,490. Could you have got a higher price anywhere else in the +district?-Not in our district, that I know of. + +13,491. How far do you live from the place where the fish are +delivered?-I live close to it. The curing place is about 50 yards +from my house. + +13,492. Who wrote this document?-I did. + +13,493. When?-Yesterday. + +13,494. Did anybody suggest to you to do so?-No. It was done at +my own option. + +13,495. Did anybody speak to you about it?-No. + +13,496. Did you just take it into your own head?-Yes, at six +o'clock last night. + +[Page 336] + +13,497. Did you get all these men to sign it last night?-Some last +night, and some this morning on my way here. + +13,498. Are they all neighbours of yours, quite close to +Quendale?-Yes. + +13,499. Were they all quite willing to sign it?-Yes; and more +would have signed it if they had been asked. + +13,500. You think Mr. Grierson is a very good landlord?-Yes; +and we do not want to fish to any other. If there is any one better +than him we don't know it. + +13,501. Do you think you would not make anything more of it by +curing your own fish and selling them to any other merchant?- +We cannot cure the fish ourselves on that station, because there is +no convenience except for one. There is room for all the boats, +but only room for one man. The beaching station cannot be +divided. It is not like down about Scatness, where there are so +many different places for landing. + +13,502. Are you a skipper in one of Mr. Grierson's boats?-Yes, +of a six-oared boat. + +13,503. Do you ever act as a factor to him?-No. + +13,504. Do you receive his fish?-No. + +13,505. Do you not hold any employment under Mr. Grierson?- +No. I have a bit of ground from him, and I act in looking after his +peat-mosses, but that is all the employment I have. + +13,506. Do you get a small salary for that?-Yes. + +13,507. Do you get all your goods at the Quendale shop?-Yes. + +13,508. Do you get paid in money at the end of the year?-Yes; +any one who has money to get, has it paid to him at that time. + +13,509. Have you always something to receive?-No, some years I +have something, and some years not. + +13,510. Had you some cash to get last year?-No. + +13,511. Were you behind the year before also?-I was not behind +for that year, but I had been behind before. + +13,512. And there has been a balance against you for good number +of years?-Yes, because Mr. Grierson gave me an advance when I +first took the land from him. + +13,513. Do you think that if you were not bound to fish for Mr. +Grierson your rent would be raised?-We think so, but perhaps we +my be wrong. + +13,514. Has anybody suggested to you that your rents might be +raised if you were not going to fish to Mr. Grierson?-No, that is +only our own imagination. + +13,515. Has Mr. Grierson ever said so?-Not to my knowledge. + +13,516. Did you ever hear that he had said so?-No, I never heard +that. + +13,517. Do you think it would be a reasonable thing for him to +raise your rents if you were not fishing for him?-I cannot say; I +think our rents are high enough as it is. + +13,518. But you are afraid that your rents might be raised, and +perhaps that may be the reason for some you having signed that +paper?-It may have been, but I cannot say. + +13,519. Are the goods which you get at Quendale store of good +quality and cheap enough?-They are as cheap as we can get +anywhere. + +13,520. Have you dealt much anywhere else?-No; I have got +most of my goods there. + +13,521. Do you know anything about Gavin Henderson's goods?- +I know a little about them, and I think they are very much the same +as at the Quendale store, both as to price and quality. + +13,522. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No. + +13,523. Is there any other person present who wishes to make any +statement?-[No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until +further notice. + +<Adjourned>. + +LERWICK: SATURDAY, JANUARY 27, 1872 + +<Present>-MR GUTHRIE. + +JAMES POTTINGER, examined. + +13,524. Are you a fisherman residing in Burra?-Yes. I live with +my father, who is a tenant there. + +13,525 I understand you wish to make some statement; what is it +about?-It is about the way in which I have been served in Burra. +My father and I had to spend upwards of £12 on repairs on the +house where we lived about 1865; and in January 1866, when I +was in Messrs Hay's employment, they asked me for extra for peat +leave, because we put a small chimney in the bedroom end of our +house. I refused to pay it, but when Mr. Irvine settled with me he +paid me all except the pound, which he kept. + +13,526. What employment were you in then?-I had been at +Liverpool with a cargo. I was not at the fishing at the time; I was +settling up for my voyage to Liverpool at the time when the pound +was taken off. + +13,527. Had you got any supplies during that winter from Hay & +Co.?-I did not have much. + +13,528. Had you been in their employment the summer +previous?-No; I had been in Messrs Harrison & Son's +employment at the Faroe fishing. When Mr. Irvine would not +give me the pound I said I would not sign the books, and I have +not signed my account yet. The thing ran on from then until last +year, when my father was charged £4 for the extra peat leave. He +came back to Burra and asked me what he should do, and then he +went in again to Lerwick and paid it. Then, this year, I went in to +Mr. Irvine and asked him if he was not to take off the pound, and +he said he would never take it off; and when my father settled this +year again he had to pay it. + +13,529. Then that is a charge made upon your father and not upon +you?-Yes. + +13,530 Is your father the tenant?-He is, but I went in and paid +half of the rent and got a receipt for that half; but the pound was +not included in it. + +13,531. Why was it not charged upon you?-Because he gripped +my father for me. + +13,532. But why was it not charged upon you first?-Mr. Irvine +told me that we were burning two fires in the house, and that I +would have to pay that, but I would not do it + +13,533. Had you built an addition to the house when you were +married?-I was at the expense of building it. It was a new end to +the house that was built then. + +13,534. Is it a rule that all who live on the island and burn a fire +have to pay peat leave?-Every house has the same privilege that I +have, but none of them pay it except myself. + +13,535. How do you mean that they have the privilege?-They +have a small chimney in the bedroom, the other apartment in the +house, the same as I have. + +13,536. Why do you come to me to complain of that?-I did not +think it would do any good, but I thought I would let you know +that such a thing was done, because I think it is unfair. + +13,537. Has it anything to do with the fishing?-No. + +13,538. Were you ever in Messrs. Hay's employment at the +fishing?-I was three years in their vessels as a lad, but that is +twelve years ago. I have been twelve years in Messrs. Harrison's +employment. + +[Page 337] + +13,539. Did you leave Messrs. Hay and go to Messrs. Harrison?- +Yes. + +13,540. Did Messrs. Hay object to one of their tenant's sons +leaving their employment and going to fish in the smack of +another curer?-No. + +13,541. Have you been asked to go in Messrs. Hay's smacks +since?-Yes. Mr. Irvine asked me to go in their vessels both in +1866 and 1867, in both of which years I had vessels from them in +the winter time, but I told Mr. Irvine that I would not leave the +vessel or the employ I was in and go with them. + +13,542. Was it before or after you were charged that sum for peat +leave that you were asked to go?-It was in the same year. 1866 +was the first time I had to pay £1 of peat leave. + +13,543. But you said you were charged with that in January 1866; +was it before or after January 1866 that Mr. Irvine asked you to +go in his Faroe vessel?-It was both before and after I went to +Liverpool for Messrs. Hay in the 'North Sea Queen.' + +13,544. Was it some time after you came back from Liverpool that +you were settled with?-No; it was in the same week or the week +after. + +13,545. Had you seen Mr. Irvine after you came back and before +you settled with him?-Yes. + +13,546. Was it when you first came back that he asked you to go to +Faroe in the following season?-It was at the time when I settled, +and also when I joined the vessel. + +13,547. Do you think if you had not refused to go in one of Messrs. +Hay's vessels to the Faroe fishing you would have been charged +with peat leave?-I don't know about that. + +13,548. Is the charge for peats just so much for each fire that is +burned?-We don't know; it is just included in the rent. + +13,549. Is it not charged separately from the rent?-No; it is all +put together, so far as I know; it is all called land-rent. + +13,550. Have you any note of your settlement with Mr. Irvine in +1866?-No. I don't think I got any receipt then; but I got a receipt +yesterday when I paid the half-year's rent. + +13,551. I suppose the people in Burra were quite at liberty to go +to the Faroe fishing with any person they pleased during the last +twelve years?-No, some of them were not at liberty, but I was at +liberty because I had charge of a vessel. A single man who was +not master of a vessel did not have liberty. + +13,552. How do you know that?-Because I have been told of +tenants who had to pay £1 in consequence of their sons going to +the Faroe fishing. Andrew Laurenson paid £1 for going to Faroe +in Messrs. Harrison's employ, and he has not got it back. I don't +know any one else who has not got the money back except him; +but there may be others who had to pay it, and who have not got it +back. + +13,553. Were a number of the young men obliged to go to the +fishing in Hay & Co.'s vessels?-A good few of them went in +their vessels, and some of them left and went in the vessels of +other owners. + +13,554. But did you know of any man leaving another owner's +vessel in which he was engaged, and going in one of Hay & Co.'s +because they required him to do so?-No; I only know that money +was paid for that. + +13,555. Do you understand that if you had not been a master, +but had been merely an ordinary seaman, you would have been +obliged to go in Messrs. Hay's vessels?-So far as I know, I +would. + +13,556. Would you have been bound to do so if they had offered +you as good a vessel as master as the one you were going in?-I +don't think it; I never heard anything about that. I wish to say that +I could get turf from another island which would not cost me over +one-fourth of the pound which Hay & Co. charged me for peat +leave. My father asked Mr. Irvine yesterday whether, if I got the +turf in that way, he would take the pound off me, and he said he +would not. + +13,557. What kind of agreement do you sign with Harrison & Co. +when you go to the Faroe fishing?-It is a written agreement. + +13,558. I suppose the fishermen in the Faroe fishing regard +themselves as partners with the owners of the ship to the extent +of one half?-Yes, that is what we sign for. + +13,559. The owners of the ship are always the curers that you +deliver the fish to?-Yes. + +13,560. And I suppose the owners employ men as curers?-Yes. + +13,561. The payment which the fishermen get at the end of the +year will depend a good deal upon the way in which the fish are +cured, because, if they are ill cured, the fishermen will receive less +money?-Yes. + +13,562. Or if the fish are ill sold the fishermen will also suffer?- +Yes. + +13,563. Therefore the fishermen have as much interest in the +curing and sale of the fish as the owner has?-Yes. + +13,564. But I suppose you leave the management of these matters +in the hands of the owners?-Yes; the owners have all the +management. + +13,565. Is it understood in the Faroe fishing that you get one half +of the actual returns from the fishing?-They tell us so. + +13,566. It is not according to any current price that you get it, but it +is one half of the actual price at which the fish are sold which you +are to get?-Yes. + +13,567. And you trust entirely to the owners to obtain that price, +and to account to you for one half of that, under certain +deductions?-Yes. + +13,568. Do you know what deductions are allowed before the +proceeds of the fish are divided?-I cannot tell; I have seen it all +in the agreement, but I cannot recollect what it is just now. It is +every man's wish to see a bill of sale for their fish at settling time, +but such a thing has never been asked for. I have never asked for +it so long as I have gone to the fishing. + +13,569. You think you ought to see the bill of sale?-Yes; and that +is the opinion of all the fishermen, so far as I know. + +13,570. Do the men in Harrison & Son's employment undertake to +be ready to join the vessel for putting in salt, bending sails, and so +forth, at a certain time before the vessel leaves?-Yes, and that is +usually done. + +13,571. How long are you bound to remain in the vessel?-Until +about 13th August. + +13,572. On board the vessel, what do you do with the fish when +you catch them?-We bleed them, and wash and split them, and +salt them in the hold, and generally prepare them so as to fetch the +best market. + +13,573. The deductions which are charged before dividing the fish +are the expenses of curing and the price of the salt?-Yes. They +put the salt and curing altogether, and charge £2, 10s. for that. + +13,574. They do not charge the actual cost, but make a slump +charge for the whole work?-Yes. + +13,575. There is also an allowance deducted of 10s. per ton to the +master, and 2s. 6d. to the mate?-Yes. + +13,576. And the agreement which you sign provides for a certain +quantity of bread for each man?-Yes, 8 lbs. of bread per week; +and there is an allowance of 9d. for score money. The score +money is paid before the division is made, so that one half is paid +by the owners and one half by the men themselves. + +13,577. Is it also part of the bargain, that the fishermen are liable +for breaking lines or spoiling any part of the vessel?-Yes. + +13,578. On returning you put the vessel into dock and unbend the +sails?-Yes. + +13,579. There is a stipulation in the agreement against smuggling, +is there not?-Yes. + +13,580. Is there any smuggling carried on at Faroe-Not a great +deal now. + +13,581. Is there any arrangement about going farther north than +Faroe if required?-Yes; if the master thinks it prudent to go to +Iceland or elsewhere before a certain time, the men are taken +bound to go, and in that case they are paid by wages, which are +fixed in the agreement. They begin to run from the 13th or [Page +338] the middle of August, and continue till 1st October. But if +we are going to Iceland during the summer, the men run their +share of the fishing the same as they do at Faroe. + +13,582. It is only for a late voyage to Iceland that they get +wages?-Yes. + +13,583. Do you often go upon these late voyages?-I have done so +for the last few years. + +13,584. Are the men bound to go upon them?-They are bound to +go if the master or owners require them; but there are plenty of +men to be got at that period of the year, so that if any man wants +his liberty then he can get it. + +13,585. You can fill up your crew from other boats which are not +going upon these late voyages?-Yes. + +13,586. Does the Iceland voyage commence from Foroe, or do you +come to from Lerwick first?-We come back to Lerwick. + +13,587. There is a scale of victualling for that voyage contained in +the agreement?-Yes. + +13,588. The men don't provide their own food?-No; it is +provided by the owners. The men provide nothing. + +13,589. There is a less supply of bread on the Iceland voyage than +on the other voyage, is there not?-Very little less. They have 8 +lbs. per week in the summer time, and 7 lbs. at Iceland. + +13,590. Do you always get ample supplies according to your +agreement?-Yes. + +13,591. Do you also get your small stores and outfits from the +owner's shop?-Yes. We always go to his shop for what we want +at leaving. + +13,592. Do you also run an account with Messrs. Harrison for +supplies to your family during your absence?-Perhaps some of +the men do that, but I don't do it. I pay the money for what I want, +and get it where it can be got best. + +13,593. Do you run no account at all?-Not much. I sometimes +run an account for a little with Messrs. Harrison when I want +anything,-perhaps in the year, and that is settled at settling time. + +13,594. But most of your supplies you get elsewhere-at +Scalloway or Lerwick?-Yes. + +13,595. Do all the men in your vessel keep accounts at Harrison & +Son's, and get their supplies there?-Yes. + +13,596. You purchase your own lines and hooks for Faroe?-Yes. + A lead of lines for each man will cost about 11s. + +13,597. Is that the only fishing expense that you have?-Yes; but +perhaps we may have two leads of lines in one summer. + +13,598. Do you always purchase them from the owners?-Yes; or +they are put on board the vessel, and the men take them as they +require them. The master keeps an account of that. + +13,599. How do you do on the Iceland voyage for these fishing +supplies?-The men pay hire for their lines on the Iceland voyage. + +13,600. Then the lines in that case are at the owners risk?-Yes. + +13,601. If they are lost, do the owners bear the loss?-The men +have to pay for them if they lose them, and if they return them they +only pay hire for them. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, recalled. + +13,602. You have handed in an agreement for the year 1871 with +the crew of the 'Royal Tar?'-Yes. + +13,603. Is that the form that is always used by Mr. Leask in +agreements for the Faroe fishing?-Perhaps a word or two may +vary, but that is the substance of the agreement. It is in this form: + +'Royal Tar.' +'We, the undersigned, hereby agree to prosecute the cod and other +fishings ,in the said vessel wherever required by the master or +owner during the fishing season of 1871, that is, from the time we +are requested to join the vessel until the end of August if required, +it being understood that one half of the net proceeds of the fishing +belong to the owner of the vessel, and the other half to be divided +among the crew in the proportions set opposite their respective +names; the owner supplying the crew with 1 lb. of bread per man +per day.' Then follow the men's names and residences, and their +ages, the last ship in which they were employed, their capacity as +master, mate, second mate, sharesman, or half, or three-quarter +sharesman, as the case may be. In the next column there is given +the rate per ton of premium or extra above the share, being 9s. in +this case to the master, 3s. 6d. to the mate, and 1s. to the second +mate. Then follows the rate of score money to each man, being in +this case 6d. throughout. There is also a column for observations, +in which it is noted opposite the names of three men, and as much +as he is worth; how is that fixed?-It is left to the discretion of the +principal men of the vessel. + +13,604. Is anything else of importance ever entered in the column +for observations?-If anything occurs, of course it will be entered. +I may mention that the time when the men generally have to join +the ship is about the middle of March. That time is not fixed by +the agreement; it is merely said that they have to join when they +are requested. + +13,605. What do you do about an Iceland voyage?-The Iceland +voyage generally commences about the middle of August, after the +Faroe voyage is over. The agreement does not refer to that. + +13,606. Do they make a separate agreement for an Iceland voyage, +the men being paid by wages?-Yes. + +13,607. I understand you have something to add to your previous +evidence?-Yes. When my examination ceased previously, I think +I was speaking about the work-people, and I have now brought one +of the time-books to show the proportion of money and of goods +received by each. [Produces book.] + +13,608. That is a time-book for the work-people employed in 1871 +at Sound beach, which is about a mile from Lerwick?-Yes. It +shows the amount of cash paid, the balance, of course, being the +amount of their accounts for the week. + +13,609. The first name is M'Gowan Gray?-He is the +superintendent. + +13,610. The entry in his case is, Cash 2s., time 6, wages 10s.: what +does that mean?-He has 10s. a week of wages, six days a week, +and 2s. is the cash he has to get. + +13,611. The entry in the inner column is made at pay-day, showing +the amount of cash he has to get?-Yes. + +13,612. How is the amount of cash ascertained?-We have a +ledger account with each individual, which is settled every week, +but perhaps it may not be balanced. We do not generally balance +until the end of the year, but we square accounts before. + +13,613. Is the account squared to ascertain the amount of cash +payable?-Yes, the amount of cash due to the individual. + +13,614. Is that not a sufficient balance for the whole?-I daresay it +comes to the same thing as a sufficient balance, only the account is +not ruled off. + +13,615. Is it done in pencil?-It is done in ink, but it is not ruled +off in lines; it is not added up. + +13,616. But there is an addition made in the inner column in ink: +how is that done?-It is just like any ordinary account, with +double money columns. The wages are credited; then the goods +stand against them, and the balance is charged, so that the one +squares the other. + +13,617. Is that done each week?-Yes. + +13,618. Are the balances entered here always paid in cash?- +Always. + +13,619. Are they never allowed to lie?-Not with the work-people. + +13,620. Is the week ending 2d Sept. 1871, of which this- +[showing]-is the account, a fair average of a [Page 339] week +throughout the season?-I think it will be about a fair average. + +13,621. It shows £5, 17s. 5d. as the total amount of wages earned; +and of that, £3, 19s. 7d. was paid in cash at the end of the week, +the rest having been taken out in the course of the week in +goods?-Yes, principally in provisions. + +13,622. I see that in one case it had been altogether taken out in +goods, and there was no cash due?-Yes, but in others you will +find that there has been nothing taken out, and that the whole was +paid in cash. + +13,623. I see that in six cases cash has been paid in full out of +twenty-seven people employed altogether?-Yes. + +13,624. I fancy that in that week rather more has been paid in cash +than the average, because in the following week £2, 9s. 2d. was +due, and £1, 1s. 6d. was paid in cash. In another week £4, 12s. 2d. +was payable, and £1, 11s. 10d. was paid in cash. In another week +£4, 6s. 9d. was payable, and £1, 4s. 5d. was paid in cash, there +being twenty-five persons employed in that week. Then, in the last +week which appears in the book £3, 14s. 7d. was payable, and £1, +2s. 7d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed +then also?-Yes; people, of course, require the same amount of +provisions, whether they earn much or little, the amount of their +balance in cash being less where the work has been less. + +13,625. In the Faroe fishing formerly-I am not speaking of Mr. +Leask's business only, but of your general knowledge of the +country-was it the case that tenants were held under an +obligation to fish for particular persons, just as they now are +in some places in the ling fishing?-I am not aware of any +tenants having been compelled or bound to fish to their proprietor +in the Faroe fishing, either now or formerly. + +13,626. When was the Faroe fishing introduced into Shetland?-I +think about 1851 or 1852. + +13,627. Have you known cases in which proprietors or tacksmen +attempted to get their ships manned from their estates, not by +compulsion, but by persuasion or influence?-I am not aware of +any compulsion having been used at all. + +13,628. When the Faroe fishing was first introduced, was it not the +case that a merchant's smacks were manned for the most part from +lands of which he was proprietor or tacksman?-I believe that is +quite true, because when a merchant had tenants he invariably got +the preference from them; but they were not bound to go to the +fishing for him. + +13,629. There was not such a demand for places on board Faroe +vessels at that time as there is now?-Nothing like it. + +13,630. Now the service has become more popular?-Yes; and the +number of the ships has increased considerably, so that the number +of men required is far greater. + +13,631. Is there always an ample supply of men for that fishing?- +Not always. + +13,632. When men fall short, what means do you adopt to increase +the supply? Have you to canvas for men, or do you raise your +terms, or what is done?-There is very little difference in the +terms. Men have been very scarce this season in consequence of +the bad fishing last year, but we have not altered the terms. I +remember one year we had to offer wages as an inducement to the +men to ship. In 1861 there was a bad fishing, and in 1862 we had +to guarantee them £1, 10s. a month of wages; but I don't think +fishermen in general like wages. + +13,633. Have you ever had recourse to any other means except +persuasion to fill up your vessels not except persuasion; but we +have not been at a great loss for men. We have generally had as +many as we required, until this season. I don't think we will be +able to get as many as we require this season, because of the bad +fishing last year. + +13,634. I suppose the great bulk of the business in Mr. Leask's +shop passes through accounts with fishermen and others?-Yes, +the great bulk of it. + +13,635. When a man pays in cash for the goods he buys, does he +get a discount?-No. We price the goods at the very lowest at the +commencement, and we don't alter the prices. + +13,636. There are not two prices, according as the man pays in +cash or takes it out in his account?-No, it is all the same price. + +13,637. Then a man has no advantage in paying cash?-None +whatever. + +13,638. And he is not expected to pay in cash?-Not if he be +employed by Mr. Leask. Of course we sell a great quantity of +goods for cash to persons whom we don't employ, both in the +provision shop and also in the draper. + +13,639. In addition to the fish which are delivered in a wet state at +your stations, do you purchase dry fish?-Mr. Leask has been in +the habit of purchasing ling for a firm in Dublin for many years. +He also buys cod in a dry state occasionally. + +13,640. Last year, I understand, you bought all the Greenbank +fish?-Yes, all the Greenbank ling, not the other. + +13,641. And also some from Mossbank?-Yes. + +13,642. Did you also buy dry fish from Thomas Williamson, +Seafield?-Yes. + +13,643. Do you supply Pole, Hoseason, & Co. with goods as +wholesale merchants?-No. + +13,644. Then these fish would be settled for by cash or bills?- +Yes; by cash at three months from the date of shipment. + +13,645. Were these ling paid for at the current price-Yes, at £23 +per ton, free on board at Mossbank or Cullivoe, the port of +shipment. + +13,646. The men, I understand, are paid according to the current +price of dry fish at the end of the season?-Yes. They get all the +advantage that the curer can afford to give them. The price is not +fixed at the commencement, and I think it is much better not. + +13,647. What was the current price at the end of last season?- +£23. + +13,648. Is that calculated to afford 8s. per cwt. for green fish?- +Yes. In the previous year the price was, I think, £21 for dry fish, +and the price allowed for green fish was 7s. 3d. for ling. Of course +tusk and cod were much less. + +13,649. How would a transaction such as you have mentioned be +taken into account in ascertaining the current price at the end of +the season? Would you stand in the position towards the curers of +a wholesale purchaser?-Exactly. + +13,650. Do you think a number of small sales in the course of a +season may be able to get a higher price than a large curer who +sells all in a lump all the end of the year?-At rare times he may +sell a small parcel for a larger price; but generally, I think, the +small curers get a less price than we do at the end of the season. + +13,651. Would you be surprised to hear that some small curers +were able to pay their fishermen much higher prices for ling and +all other fish than the larger curers, and that they have done so, in +point of fact, for some years back?-Such a thing is quite possible. +They may have got more for their fish when dry. + +13,652. How would you account for that?-I cannot account for it; +it may have happened by accident. + +13,653. Do they require less remuneration for their trouble?-No. + +13,654. Or does selling in small parcels enable them to get a +higher price?-Sometimes it may. + +13,655. Do you think they may sell to retail dealers at once, and +thus get the advantage of the retail price?-Perhaps they may sell +a small parcel at once at a higher price; but, as a rule, I don't think +they do. I think a large parcel generally sells best. + +13,656. Is not a large parcel sold to parties who themselves supply +retail dealers?-Yes. + +13,657. But a small dealer, by taking a little more trouble, may +possibly sell direct to the retail merchant himself, so that he +secures his profit without the intervention of another dealer?-He +may. + +[Page 340] + +13,658. Is that the way in, which you account for him getting a +higher price?-That is the only way in which I can account for it. + +13,659. The small curers get not only the curer's profit, but +they also get the wholesale fish-dealer's profit at times, by selling +direct to the retail dealer. Do you think that is a reasonable +explanation of the matter?-I think so. It is the only way in which +I can account for it, because I know that the large curers pay the +utmost they can afford to the men. + +13,660. Do you supply Thomas Williamson, Seafield, with +goods?-Yes. + +13,661. Are these set in the account against the fish which you buy +from him?-Yes. + +13,662. And that account is settled from time to time?-Yes. + +13,663. Is that the only security which Mr. Leask has for his +supplies to Williamson?-Yes; in fact he has no security at all +until he gets the fish. + +13,664. I suppose Mr. Williamson's is a case of man starting +business without much capital?-I think so. + +13,665. Is Mr. Leask his security with the Commercial Bank?-I +know that he became answerable either for an account or for the +value of boats, or perhaps for both; but I could not say what he +may have done with regard to the Commercial Bank. + +13,666. Are you aware that Williamson obtained letter from Mrs. +Budge's agent requiring the fishermen on Seafield to fish for +him?-I am not aware of that; I never heard of it before. + +13,667. You showed me before the correspondence which had +taken place between Mr. Leask and Mr. William Jack Williamson. +In a letter dated 7th December 1869 Mr. Leask stated that he had +directed the fishermen to fish to him (that is, Williamson), and that +Williamson had become liable to him (Mr. Leask) for the rents as +James Johnston had done: had he done so?-I suppose Mr. Leask +simply recommended them to fish for Williamson; he did not +direct them. + +13,668. But the word used in the letter is 'directed?'-That simply +means recommended. Mr. Leask never directed them to fish for +Williamson, or to fish at all. They might have gone to the ends of +the earth, to the south, or elsewhere, for anything he cared; but +when they did fish, I suppose he wished them to fish for +Williamson. + +13,669. Probably that recommendation would be taken into +account in fixing the rent to be paid for Williamson's premises +at Ulsta?-It was not. The rent has never been reduced on +account of that. + +13,670. But it would not be reduced; it would rather be raised, +because that would increase the value?-There was no such +understanding at all. I deny most positively that Williamson's +rent was increased in consequence of the tenants being allowed to +fish for him. + +13,671. Was Williamson on the property when Mr. Leask +bought it?-Yes. Mr. Leask has been at very great expense on +Williamson's property, repairing houses, and one thing and +another, and very likely he would have raised the rent in +consequence of that. I think he paid about £20 one year for +improvements, and there were other improvements carried +through which cost a great deal of money; and I consider that +Mr. Leask was entitled to a percentage upon that. + +13,672. Did he get a rise of rent?-I don't know that he did. I am +only saying that if he did get it he was entitled to it. + +13,673. But is it not reasonable to suppose that man can pay a +higher rent for a piece of ground if the fishermen in the district are +under an obligation to deliver their fish to him?-He ought +certainly to pay more for a monopoly; there is no doubt about that. + +13,674. Do you not know whether the rent was altered after Mr. +Leask bought the property?-I believe the rents in general were +raised a little,-not the whole of them, but a great many of +them,-because Mr. Leask has been at a great deal of expense in +building new houses, and otherwise. + +13,675. Have you any doubt at all that the fact that the fishermen +were fishing for Mr. Williamson and Mr. Johnston was taken into +account in fixing the amount of their rents?-It had nothing +whatever to do with the fixing of the rents. + +13,676. Was it merely as a favour to the merchant who occupied +the premises that the tenants were directed to fish to him?-Quite +so. It was merely a favour to recommend the tenants to fish for +him. + +13,677. That was no favour to the fishermen, however?-I don't +think it was, but it did them no injustice, because I have no doubt +Williamson would have paid them the same price as other people. + +13,678. Did Williamson become liable to Mr. Leask then for the +rents of the fishermen?-No, never. Williamson never became +liable for anything but the balance in his hands. + +13,679. Mr. Leask's letter states that he had directed the fishermen +to fish to him, and that Williamson had become liable to him for +the rents, and he complains also that Williamson had not fulfilled +that obligation: had he not become liable?-He may have talked +about doing so, but he never did so. + +13,680. Did he promise to become liable?-He may have +promised to become liable, but to the best of my knowledge, +he never did so. + +13,681. Is it not a very usual, indeed almost a universal, +arrangement in Shetland, that some of the fishermen's rents +are paid to the proprietor by the fish-merchant to whom his +tenants fish?-Yes; I believe that is quite common. + +13,682. Is it not very often done by debiting the fishermen with +the amount of the rent in the fish-merchant's books, and the +fish-merchant handing a cheque to the proprietor for the slump +sum of the rents due by his fishermen?-Yes, that is quite +common. + +13,683. Is it not almost universal?-I believe it is, but in this case +it was not done. Williamson simply paid the balance in his hands +which was due to the fishermen. When the balance could not pay +for the rent, of course Williamson did not make it up. + +13,684. He did not pay any rents for fishermen who were not able +to pay for themselves?-No. + +13,685. But James Johnston had done so, and fulfilled his +obligation?-In one or two cases, I believe, Johnston did so. +I could not even say that he has done that, but I think there was +some understanding of that sort. + +13,686. In that letter of December 1869 to Williamson, Mr. Leask +refers to Johnston as having fulfilled the stipulation on that point +which Williamson had failed to do. I suppose you have no reason +to doubt that that statement is correct?-None; only I was not +aware of it. I did not pay any attention to that part of the letter. + +13,687. Is it the practice for Mr. Leask to pay to the proprietors the +rents of a number of fishermen who have accounts with him?- +No; he pays no rents for the men whatever. + +13,688. That practice does not exist in connection with the Faroe +fishermen?-No. It is only in the home fishing, so far as I know, +that that is done. + +13,689. Are the rents of any of the men employed in the Faroe +fishing by Mr. Leask paid through him to the proprietors?-If an +individual gave an order on Mr. Leask in favour of the proprietor, +of course it would be paid if the fisherman had funds in Mr. +Leask's hands to meet it. + +13,690. But not otherwise?-Not otherwise. No guarantee is +given. + +13,691 Are such orders frequently given?-Frequently; at least +they are not uncommon. + +13,692. A fisherman sometimes, at or before settlement, gives an +order on the shipowner in favour of the proprietor?-Yes. + +13,693. And you may perhaps have a number of such orders from +the tenants of a particular proprietor?-We have some, but very +few. + +13,694. When a number of such rents are payable to single +proprietor, do you give him one cheque for the whole?-I don't +remember any order of that kind being given, except one. + +[Page 341] + +13,695. I believe you wish to make some additional statement +with regard to the Greenland whale fishery?-Yes. With your +permission I would again refer shortly to Mr. Hamilton's report, +in case there is anything in it which I left uncorrected when I was +previously examined. I think I showed last day that crews have +been discharged within about one month or less from the date of +their being landed; and I referred to the crew of the 'Esquimaux' +in May 1870, and to the crew of the 'Polynia' from Davis Straits in +November 1871. The former crew contained the latter, I think, 19 +men, who were discharged within less than a month. + +13,696. Have you known any other cases in which the crews were +discharged as rapidly?-I refer to the shipping master of the port +for other cases. I have no doubt there are plenty more. + +13,697. Are there any others within your own knowledge?-I +don't remember any, but I have no doubt there are others. I +admitted that in some cases seamen have taken an unreasonable +length of time before coming to be discharged; but I explained +that that was not the fault of the agents, but of the men themselves. +Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised form +prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any +other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in +contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don't +believe it. + +13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000. + +13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen +and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths +of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families. + +13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of +the families?-Yes. + +13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an +account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes; +but I don't consider that to be truck at all. + +13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the +value of the man's fish being taken out supplies of goods, and the +balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He +simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail +merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with +wholesale merchants, and have to pay them. + +13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than +that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am +not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement. + +13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of +the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people +in Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the +employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I +am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the +men got nothing but goods when they should have got money. + +13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but +goods?-That is their own fault. + +13,706. Still it may be the fact although it is their own fault?-It +may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require +supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give +them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I +don't think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word. + +13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about +the meaning of the word truck than as to the actual state of matters +in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don't think there is +any room for complaint about the state of matters in Shetland, as a +rule. + +13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain +advantage by getting advances of goods?-Of course they have. + +13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such +advances when they require them?-Of course I don't deny that; +but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on +the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good thing +in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather short. + +13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are +caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize +them until then. None of the fish-curers get one penny for their +fish until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very +small parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south. + +13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a +better position?-Yes. + +13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or +fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize +his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is +selling his butter and milk and cattle. + +13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the +time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash. + +13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who +are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes; +but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of +twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance in +the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the +end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies +out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from +the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to +whom he sells his fish. + +13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long +settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is. + +13,716. Is it not possible for a fish-curer beginning business on a +small scale, to carry on his business without any capital at all, or +almost without capital?-If he gets assistance he may, but it is not +possible to do it without assistance. No one can carry on business +to any extent without capital. + +13,717. But he requires only a limited capital, does he not?-He +requires a good deal of capital, but it depends entirely upon the +extent of his business. + +13,718. He has no wages to pay until about the time when he +realizes the sales for the year?-But he has goods to supply or +money to advance. + +13,719. But he may have a certain amount of goods which may be +got at three or six months' credit, according to arrangement?- +Yes. + +13,720. For instance, Mr. Thomas Williamson, at Seafield, does +not pay for his goods, I presume, until his fish are sold to Mr. +Leask?-That is an exceptional case. If Mr. Leask or Mr. Adie, or +any other person, chooses to accommodate such a person as Mr. +Williamson, they may do so; but that is not the rule, by any means. + +13,721. It is an exceptional case in this respect, that the fish-curer +there has a very small capital, and that he has obtained goods on +credit?-Yes. + +13,722. Still it illustrates the possibility of doing these things +under the system which prevails?-Yes, I may mention that the +merchants in Lerwick are not so hard as merchants in the south, in +requiring that money must be paid at the end of three or four +months. A merchant in Lerwick may allow his account to run on +for twelve months, because that is the custom of the country. + +13,723. Is that the only other point in Mr. Hamilton's report which +you wish to refer to?-No. I deny that almost every fisherman in +the island is in debt, and that his wife and other members of his +family are also in debt. + +13,724. How do you know that?-I would refer you to the +bank-books, particularly to those of the Union Bank, and also +those of the Commercial and National Banks, and of the Post +Office Savings Bank, and the Seamen's Savings Bank. + +13,725. Are these all the banks in Shetland?-Yes. + +13,726. Are you aware that men who take advances in goods and +cash from you as their employer frequently have considerable +sums in bank?-Yes. I can point to a home fisherman, not a +tenant of Mr. [Page 342] Leask's, who has accumulated between +£100 and £200 within the last few years. + +13,727. Does he take large advances?-I don't know what he +takes; he does not deal with Mr. Leask at all. I can also point to +a man in the Greenland trade, who within the last six years has +saved up, I think, about £130 or £140. + +13,728. Do these men obtain advances from their employers in the +same way as other men?-Yes; they have accounts in the same +way. + +13,729. But they have a large balance at the end of the year; +probably they don't allow their accounts to exceed their +earnings?-Quite so. + +13,730. You don't know about the debts which stand in the books +of other merchants?-No. + +13,731. So that you really cannot say to what extent fishermen are +in debt to merchants other than Mr. Leask?-I cannot say to what +extent they are in debt to other merchants; but I don't believe they +are in debt to any great extent. Part of them may be in debt to +some extent, but not the majority. The debtors must be a minority +among the men. + +13,732. What is the next point in the report to which you wish to +refer?-I have already proved that the average quantity of ground +on the farms of Mr. Leask's estates in Sound and Whiteness is +about 12 acres, and not 3 or 4 acres, as Mr. Hamilton alleges, and I +produce the rent rolls and plans to show that the rent is under 10s. +an acre. In addition to that, in Sound and Whiteness the tenants +have the free use of extensive scattald for their sheep and cattle. + +13,733. Are the farms divided there?-Yes, they are all divided. +In Yell the tenants have an unlimited amount of sheep pasturage, +for which they pay 6d. per head per annum. + +13,734. Still these estates of Mr. Leask's only form a small portion +of the land in Shetland?-Yes; but I believe they may be taken as a +fair criterion for the rest. + +13,735. Then you would say that this would have been a fair +statement if it had run thus: 'These fishermen for the most part +also rent small farms of about 10 to 12 acres, paying a rent of +about £6 a year?'-Yes; from £5 to £6 a year on the average. The +rents range from perhaps £3 to £12, but on an average they may be +taken as from £5 to £6. Then I admit that the direct profit from the +shipping agency or the commission allowed to the agents is not a +sufficient remuneration for the trouble the agents have and the +work they have to perform. I also admit that they do make some +profit from their customers; and also that many of the men +engaged are utterly unable, without assistance of the agents, to +provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage; +but I explain that in consequence of that the agent is very often +sacrificed in the event of a bad voyage, because then a number of +the young hands in the Greenland trade are always in debt. + +13,736. Is it within your experience that a much smaller number +of green hands is now employed in the Greenland fishery than +formerly?-Yes, the number is much smaller than it used to be. + +13,737. Is that in consequence of the reluctance of the agents to +engage green hands who require an outfit?-Yes. The agents do +not wish to give £5 or £6 of an advance for outfit to young hands +who have only 30s. to get. + +13,738. Therefore they single out more experienced hands, who +get larger wages and require no outfit?-Yes, that is my +experience. + +13,739. Has that tendency been very strongly exhibited within the +last few years?-It has been very strongly exhibited of late. + +13,740. The agents have made a great effort to exclude young +hands, and to obtain experienced men?-Yes, and that admittedly +in consequence of the risk attending the advances to the young +hands. + +13,741. Have the masters of the ships concurred in that course of +conduct?-They generally do so. So far as the sealing voyage is +concerned, they generally prefer to have experienced hands, but in +the whaling voyage they may have about one-fifth of young hands. + +13,742. Have they complained about the reduction in the number +of young hands engaged for these voyages?-I cannot say that they +have. + +13,743. Are the gentlemen here who act as agents authorized in +any way to engage men for ships?-The masters of the ships are +invariably present when the men are engaged; indeed they engage +the men themselves. + +13,744. Then no engagement is made by the agents?-Very +seldom, unless in presence of the master. + +13,745. Is that in order to comply with the 147th section of the +Merchant Shipping Act?-No; it is because the masters prefer to +see the men they engage. Two or three years ago, I think in 1869, +we engaged about sixty men and sent them to Dundee; but the +masters did not like that plan, and preferred to see the men +themselves. + +13,746. Are you aware that the 147th section of the Merchant +Shipping Act provides, that 'if any unauthorized person engages +or supplies any mate, seaman, midshipman, or apprentice, to be +entered on board any ship in the United Kingdom, he will be liable +to be prosecuted; and if convicted, to a penalty of £20 for each +offence?' I was not aware of that. + +13,747. It is also provided, that 'the only persons authorized to +engage or supply mates, seamen, midshipmen, and apprentices, +are the following: owner, the master, or the mate of the ship, or +some person who is the bona fide servant and in the constant +employ of the owner; the superintendent of a Government +Mercantile Marine Office, or an agent licensed by the Board of +Trade?'-I may mention that Mr. Leask is part owner of most of +the vessels for which he acts as agent; indeed of all except one. + +13,748. Therefore he would not fall within that clause as you read +it?-No; he would not come within that. + +13,749. But you say that, in point of fact, the practice here is, that +the seamen are engaged by the master of the ship?-They are +virtually engaged by the master. + +13,750. And what takes place between the men and the agent +before that engagement, is merely of the nature of preliminary +negotiations?-Quite so; they are all engaged in presence of the +shipping master and the master of the vessel, or at least legally +engaged. That is the only binding engagement which is made with +them; and it is made in presence of the shipping master and the +master of the vessel. It frequently happens that we may arrange in +Mr. Leask's office with men to go in the ship, and they fail to +appear at the Shipping Office; so that the agreement in the office +of the agent is not at all binding. + +13,751. Do you remember any occasion of the master of a ship +objecting to take any man whom you had recommended to him?- +I cannot say that I remember that, but it may have occurred. We +generally endeavour to get good men; but when men are scarce, +we may have been forced to take what men we could get, and +these may not have pleased the master altogether. + +13,752. Do you remember any occasion on which the master of a +ship objected to take the men whom you wished him to take, and +suggested that you were asking him to take men who had accounts +with you in preference to others?-I don't remember of that; it +may have occurred, but I don't think so. I have known us +sometimes trying to persuade a master to take a young lad, out +of charity; and sometimes he would do so, against his own +inclination. + +13,753. Mr. Hamilton says, 'It is quite common for allotments of +wages to be made out in favour of the agents; or, in other words, +for the agent to undertake to pay himself part of the seaman's +wages.' Is that so?-I already explained that we never gave +allotments. + +13,754. He also says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for +their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper +rate from some other shopkeeper, are practically debarred from +doing so?'-I deny that most emphatically. + +[Page 343] + +13,755. Do you say that a man who obtains an engagement +through Mr. Leask or you is quite at liberty to go to any other +shopkeeper and obtain his outfit from him?-Yes; he can go +wherever he pleases. Every man gets his advance note from the +shipping master, or at least in his presence, when he engages. + +13,756. Have you never invited any of these men to obtain their +outfit at your shop?-We never invited them, but plenty of them +have done it. + +13,757. Have none of Mr. Leask's people invited them?-No, we +never invited them; but they mostly all take a certain amount of +goods from us, for all that. + +13,758. Do the preliminary negotiations to which you refer +generally take place within Mr. Leask's premises?-Yes; but +sometimes I have seen it done on board ship. + +13,759. Are the same men generally engaged by you for a +succession of years, or do they change from one agent to +another?-It is not very common for masters to change their +men. The men generally stick to one master, and a great number +of them stick to one agent; but it is quite common for them to +change agents. Mr. Hamilton also says, 'Any man who carried his +custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him +would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that +particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the +news of his contumacy would soon spread.' I deny that entirely. + +13,760. I think you told me in your previous examination that no +lists were now exchanged between agents?-It was the custom at +one time to exchange lists of balances due by seamen, but it is not +done now. + +13,761. How long is it since that custom ceased?-I have seen +very little of it for a number of years. + +13,762. Is it half a dozen years ago since it was given up?-Fully +that. + +13,763. Have you known any case of a man being refused +employment in consequence of dealing with another agent for +his outfit?-Never. We were always anxious to get hold of good +seamen, whether they dealt with us or not. + +13,764. Has that never occurred in the case of middling seaman?- +No; even then we never objected to take any seaman in +consequence of him going elsewhere with his custom. + +13,765. Has there been a large supply of seamen during the last +few years for the Greenland trade?-They have been about equal +to the demand, certainly not more. I think when the ships were all +manned last year, the men were done. There may have been few +boys left, but the men were done when the ships were done, + +13,766. Have you known any case of a man obtaining an +engagement through you and getting his outfit from another +shop?-I have no doubt there are plenty of cases of that kind, +but I could not point to any particular case. + +13,767. Do you remember of any such case occurring?-I cannot +say that I remember; but I know that there are plenty of our men +who buy very little, perhaps only a few shillings' worth, from us +when they go. + +13,768. But do you know any case of a man in want of an outfit, +engaging with you and getting that outfit from another +employer?-I cannot point to any such case. + +13,769. The cases which you have in your mind, in which the men +have bought very little from you, may be the cases of men who +have been for many years at the fishing?-Yes, and who did not +require an outfit. + +13,770. What was the state of the supply and demand in 1870?-I +think it was very much the same as in 1871: the supply was just +about equal to the demand, but in 1867 the demand was greater +than the supply. In March of that year the 'Jan Mayen' had to +leave here three or four men short of her complement. In 1868 I +think the supply was about equal to the demand, and also in 1869. +In the summer of 1869, after the month of May, the supply was +fully greater than the demand. + +13,771. Were there few vessels going to the whaling that year?- +Yes. In May there were some vessels here engaging men, but we +had more men that year than ships. + +13,772. How did you select your men that year?-The captain +selected there. + +13,773. Had you no voice in their selection?-I was not present +when they were engaged. Mr. Leask and Mr. Andrew Jamieson +were present. I refer to the 'Camperdown' and 'Polynia' in May +1869. + +13,774. Were these your only whaling vessels that year?-We had +more; but I think we had only these two in at that time when the +men were so plentiful. With regard to Mr. Hamilton's report, +again, I admit there is no time fixed for settlement, but I have +already explained that we cannot compel the men to come until +they like. I also deny that the men have to give back all the money +that they receive. I have shown that we paid £1120, 12s. 3d. to the +crew of the 'Camperdown' in 1865. + +13,775. Mr. Hamilton does not say that the men had to give back +all the money that they received. What he says is, 'The man has +no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he +is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That is only that the +men who are in debt to the agent in an equal or greater amount +have to hand back the money to him?-The idea that is conveyed +is, that every man is in that position. + +13,776. Do you deny Mr. Hamilton's statement, that 'when the +whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this +system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion +of the crew should not be settled at once?'-Yes, I deny that. I say +that no man has to ask twice to be settled with. + +13,777. That is not the question. Is it to the agent's interest that +the settlement should take place at once or not?-If we wish to +have as little trouble as possible, it is our interest to settle with the +men at once; but if an agent wishes to retain the men's money in +his hands for a month or so, it may be a little to his interest then to +delay the settlement. + +13,778. May there not be a good deal of money his hands +belonging to the men?-There may. + +13,779. It is quite a different question whether the agent acts as +his interest dictates, but still it is to his interest in such a case to +delay the settlement for some time?-I admit that it may be to +his interest to retain the money, but I deny that he delays the +settlement on that account. + +13,780. He may have an interest to retain the money, and it may +also happen that a certain amount of supplies is being taken out by +the men before they are settled with?-It is very seldom that a man +buys anything after he comes home. + +13,781. But even although that has not occurred in your business, +it is quite possible that in other businesses, or in the hands of an +unscrupulous agent-I don't suppose there are any such here,-the +settlement may be protracted in order that the agent may retain the +money in his hands, and be running up an account against the men +at the same time?-I say that the shipping agents in Lerwick are +all highly respectable men. + +13,782. That is assumed in my question; but I am putting the case +of another kind of men engaging in the business. I suppose you +can conceive such a case?-Such a case is possible. Shetland is +not exempt from bad men. + +13,783. In such a case, might not the settlement be protracted for +such reasons?-I don't think it could, because, if the settlement is +unduly protracted, the man has nothing to do but apply to the +shipping master and complain. + +13,784. Still that would require an application to the shipping +master in order to get it put right?-Yes. + +13,785. Do you deny this statement of Mr. Hamilton's: 'I need +hardly point out that it is clearly most important, in the interests of +the man, that he should not merely nominally but actually receive +his [Page 344] wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he +likes?'-That is common sense. There can be no doubt about that. +Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But while the men employed are not free +agents,'-I deny that,-'however fair an employer may desire to +be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, +the employer wants to make all he can out of those he employs, +and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has +unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of +their labour,'-I deny that,-'leaving to them only so much as is +absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' I deny that +he has the opportunity of doing that. + +13,786. You will observe that it is not alleged that any agent in +Lerwick does so. All the allegation which Mr. Hamilton makes +is that the opportunity exists?-I deny that there is such an +opportunity, because Shetland men in general are very intelligent. +They are not at all what they have been represented to be. They +are a very sharp, acute, intelligent lot of people, and they are +perfectly able to take care, and do take very good care, to protect +themselves, and to make sure that their accounts are just. I further +think they are very provident, as can be proved by the amount of +deposits in the banks. I don't think they are an extravagant people +at all. In my opinion they are a very careful, active, energetic, +intelligent people, as a rule, much more so than will be found +among the same class of people in other parts of the United +Kingdom. + +13,787. Do you think it is a sign of independence and intelligence, +and care in money matters, that fishermen and seamen should +leave all these matters in the hands of merchants and landlords?- +They don't always do that. + +13,788. In the majority of cases they pay their rents through their +fish-merchant, and many of their accounts are paid by him?-That +must be so, because they have no other means of doing it. + +13,789. Most workmen in other parts of the country have their +wages in their own hands every fortnight or every month, and can +disburse them at their own pleasure; whereas in Shetland the +universal practice is for the fisherman to run an account with the +fish-merchant to whom he delivers his fish, and the fish-merchant +transacts all his money matters for him. Do you think that is a +proof of their intelligence and independence?-The man has +merely a current account as he would have with a banker. He gets +money, or anything he likes, if he wishes to pay an account. I +suppose the fish-merchant, if he has money in his hands, would +give it to him; but to settle with the fishermen every week or every +fortnight is utterly impossible in Shetland. + +13,790. Why?-Because the fishermen are in a sort of partnership +with their employers. For instance, in the Faroe fishing it is a joint +speculation betwixt the men and the owner. The men supply their +time and labour, and the owner supplies the vessel and other +things, and the men cannot get their share of the proceeds until the +fish are dried and sold. It is quite impossible for the fish-merchant +to settle with them every week or every fortnight unless they have +been paid by wages. Of course, if they were paid by wages, the +curer could settle at short intervals with the men, or with some one +on their behalf when they were away. + +13,791. Is it not the fact that in almost every case the fishermen +depend for the accuracy of their accounts upon the fish-curer?- +No, they all have a good check upon their accounts. They have +them carefully read over, and every item criticised; and if they +don't remember exactly about a particular article, they will not +settle for it until they do remember. + +13,792. You are now speaking of the Faroe fishing and the +Greenland fishing, of which you have had experience?-Yes. + +13,793. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I should wish to +refer to certain passages in the previous evidence given before the +Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,207 Mr. Smith is asked, +'Is it a fact, that very little money passes between the proprietor +and the fishermen on these occasions?' [that is, at settlement], and +he replies, 'It is the fact.' I say that it is not a fact, and I have +proved already that the men do get money. At Ulsta the amount +earned was £86, and the cash paid was £72. + +13,794. Of course you are only speaking now of what comes under +your own observation in Mr. Leask's business?-That is all. Then +in question 44,219 Mr. Smith is asked, 'As a rule, are these +fishermen in their debt?' and he replies, 'I think very often they +are.' Now I say they are not in debt. The balances at the end of +the year are generally in their favour. Then, in question 44,225, +referring to the payment of the men employed at Greenland, Mr. +Smith is asked, 'Are the wages handed over to the agents?' and he +replies, 'The fishermen have the right of insisting that their wages +should be paid at the Custom House in terms of the articles, but +that is very extensively evaded.' I deny that. + +13,795. Have attempts never been made to evade that rule about +paying wages at the Custom House?-I don't think so. There is no +chance of evading it: + +13,796. Do you say that no attempt has been made to make +deductions other than those allowed by the statute at the time +when the wages were paid at the Custom House?-I say that, +during the first year or two, settlements were made in the Shipping +Office of the agents' accounts as well as of the men's accounts. + +13,797 Was not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I +cannot say as to that. + +13,798. When is the last payment of oil-money made?-It is not +always at the same time. Sometimes it is in November, and +sometimes in December. + +13,799. Where is it paid?-At one time it used to be made in the +Shipping Office also, but now it is invariably in the agent's office. + +13,800. Is not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I +don't think so. It is an arrangement between the parties. Mr. +Smith further says, that what he calls the evasion of the Act is as +much at the wish of the fishermen as at the wish of the proprietor. +That conveys the idea that the Greenland men are generally tenants +of the agent, but I may say that in the 'Camperdown' crew in 1865 +only one man was tenant of Mr. Leask. In question 44,243 Mr. +Smith is asked, 'Confining ourselves to the whalers, is there any +reason why the settlement should be so long delayed?' and he +replies, 'I see none, except to save the merchants trouble.' I deny +that; and I say that it gives the merchants more labour and trouble +to be going up to the Shipping Office so often. + +13,801. In the following answer Mr. Smith says the fisherman has +the power to insist on the settlement taking place at the Custom +House if he chooses. Have you known any cases where they have +insisted on that?-They don't require to insist. So far as we are +concerned, they never have to ask twice to be settled with. + +13,802. Had you any applications from Shetland men before 1867 +to have such settlements at the Custom House?-I cannot say that +I remember any. The custom then was to pay the men as soon as +we got the remittance from the owner, which was generally about +a month after the ship landed her crew. No doubt, if a man had +come before then wishing for settlement, we would have refused +to settle with him if we had not got the remittance. That, however, +was previous to 1867. + +13,803. If a man insisted on getting payment and going to the +Custom House then, what would have taken place?-The Custom +House did not interfere then at all. + +13,804. Then there was no case before 1867 or 1868 of a seaman +asking you to go and settle in presence of the superintendent?- +No. + +13,805. And such settlements were never made presence of the +superintendent?-No, except in 1854 and 1855, and I explained +why we settled there then. + +13,806. But from 1854 or 1855 down to the issuing [Page 344] of +the notice in February 1868, there was no instance of the +settlement being made before the superintendent?-None, to +my knowledge. + +13,807. The accounts during that time were settled invariably in +the agent's office, in the same way and on the same principle as +fishermen's accounts?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,247, +Mr. Smith says he considers the system of barter to be hurtful to +the independence of the people very much. I deny that the people +are not independent. I consider them to be as independent as any +people in the kingdom. Mr. Smith also says, 'They don't know the +value of money, and they don't know how to eke it out, or make it +last. They are very improvident in that way, and a men's energies +are entirely destroyed.' I maintain that the Shetland people know +very well the value of money, and they also know how to eke it out +and make the most of it. I also say they are not improvident or +extravagant, but the reverse. + +13,808. Do you think a man who is deeply in debt fishes as well +as a man who is not in debt?-It is an exception when a man is +deeply in debt: but that statement is a charge against the whole +people of Shetland. There are exceptions to every rule, and it may +be the case that some men are in debt. + +13,809. But you don't know the circumstances of the whole people +of Shetland?-I have a pretty good idea with regard to most of +them. + +13,810. Would it surprise you to be informed that two-thirds of the +fishermen in any district in Shetland were in debt at settlement to +the merchant to whom they sold their fish?-Yes, that would +surprise me. + +13,811. Then the opinion you have formed as to the character of +the Shetland people proceeds on the supposition that that is not the +case?-It proceeds upon my own experience with Mr. Leask's +tenants and fishermen and seamen. + +13,812. Would it surprise you to hear that a large proprietor in +Shetland had said that fishermen required to be treated like +children,-that they could not manage their own money matters,- +and that therefore he was obliged to take them into his own +hands?-I would be surprised to hear that, and I would not agree +with it at all. I have found them all to be very intelligent and very +sharp, and perfectly able to take care of themselves. + +13,813. Do you think the men who are engaged in the ling +fishing are of the same class as those with whom you have had +dealings?-Some of them are the same, and I think the men +employed both in that fishing and in the Faroe fishing are all much +the same. They have all had the same opportunities. Then in Mr. +Walker's evidence, in answer to question 44,366, he estimates that +£60 or £70 goes into a Shetland house every year. I think that is an +over-estimate. About one half of that would be nearer the truth. + +13,814. But his estimate of what goes into a Shetland house does +not apply to fish merely, but to all produce and stock from the +farm, and kelp and hosiery?-Still I consider that to be an +over-estimate, and I think about one half the sum he named would +be nearer the mark. Then, in question 44,368, he is asked, 'But the +greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' and he replies, 'Not a +fraction of it. If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it +is an extraordinary thing.' I deny that most positively, and I have +proved it not to be the case. + +13,815. But that is only in your own business?-Yes. Then, in +answer to question 44,386, Mr. Walker says the cost of rearing a +lb. of Shetland wool was something like 8s. to 10s. He must have +been taking leave of his senses when he stated that. In order to +disprove his statement, I say that Mr. Leask's tenants in Yell pay +6d. a head for sheep for grazing over a whole twelve months, and a +Shetland sheep carries from 2 to 3 lbs. of wool on an average, so +that the cost of rearing it is something like 21/2d. or 3d. + +13,816. But you don't include the price of the sheep or other +expenses except that of pasturage?-There are no expenses, +except driving now and then. They don't require to feed them in +winter, except perhaps for a day or so, when there is snow on the +ground. + +13,817. Do they get no artificial food?-No. Very little of that is +ever imported. + + +13,818. You don't take into account the rent which the tenant +pays for his ground?-That has nothing to do with the rearing of +the sheep. They are reared altogether on the scattald. + +13,819. But the use of the scattald is limited to tenants?-No. +Those who are not tenants get permission from Mr. Leask to graze +sheep on the scattald at 6d. per head, being the same rate as for +tenants. + +13,820. Is that the usual practice in Shetland?-I don't know that +it is, but that is the practice with Mr. Leask, and plenty of people +who are not tenants of his enjoy the same privilege. I merely +mention that to disprove this statement of Mr. Walker's, which is +so glaringly incorrect. I hold that 1 lb. of Shetland wool as bought +from Mr. Leask's tenants costs only from 2d. to 3d. I don't think I +need take up your time by going over the evidence any further. I +would merely say that I disagree with all, or almost all, of Mr. +Walker's statements. The parts of his evidence with which I more +particularly disagree are contained in the answers to the following +questions:-Nos. 44,290, 44,316, 44,318, 44,319, 44,337, 44,345, +44,346, 44,351, 44,353, 44,366, 44,368, 44,369, 44,370, 44,372, +44,374, 44,384, 44,385, 44,386, 44,389, 44,392, 44,411. The +statements in Mr. Smith's evidence which I more particularly deny +are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos. +44,160, 44,195, 44,222, 44,225, 44,226, 44,241, 44,244, 44,245, +44,246, 44,247, 44,248, 44,252. + +13,821. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK, examined. + + +13,822. I believe you are the largest employer in the Faroe trade, +and also one of the largest fish-curers in the island?-I am one of +the largest: I don't know that I am the largest. + +13,823. The previous witness, Mr. William Robertson, has been +for a long time in your employment?-Yes. + +13,824. He came forward to be examined, I understand, at your +suggestion, in order that you, being advanced in years, might not +require to do so?-Yes; and he has been more in the habit of +settling with the men than I have been myself. + +13,825. Have you heard the greater part of his evidence?-I have. + +13,826. Do you know it to be correct?-I do. + +13,827. You concur in it generally?-Yes. There is only one point +on which I would make a remark. With regard to some fishermen +getting higher prices than others from small curers, I know there +were one or two parties who got more last year, the reason being +that there are frequently parties in Scotland who get orders for fish +for Australia, and these parties give a higher price than ordinary in +order to get good fish, and they are shipped earlier in the season +than the bulk of the fish. Last year, also, one or two curers shipped +to parties in London at a higher price, and consequently were able +to give a higher price to their fishermen; but that was only an +exception. + +13,828. That would not explain the fact of certain curers paying a +higher price every year?-No. + +13,829. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE SIMPSON, examined. + + +13,830. Are you a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I do not wish to +give any statement before you at all, [Page 346] because the +proprietor may not look well upon me, and perhaps may raise my +rent or warn me. My name has been put in to you privately +without my knowledge. I did not give it in myself. + +13,831. Every one knows that you do not come here of your own +free will, but that you have been summoned to come just as you +would be summoned as a witness in a court of law. Now that you +are here, you are bound to answer the questions which are put to +you, and to speak the truth?-I will do so as far as I can, and as far +as my memory will enable me. + +13,832. Then you are a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I am. + +13,833. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman of Lunna?-I +believe I am, so far as I can understand. + +13,834. You have no liberty to sell your fish to anybody else?- +No. + +13,835. Was there a meeting held at Lunna about eight or ten years +ago, at which Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson were present and told +the tenants that they were expected to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I +believe there was. + +13,836. Were you there?-I don't remember. + +13,837. But you knew about it?-I heard that Mr. Bell had +delivered the fishing over to Mr. Robertson. + +13,838. Was that the reason why you did not want to come forward +to-day?-Yes. + +13,839. You knew you were bound to fish, and you did not want to +say anything to the contrary?-Yes, in case it might affect me in +any way with them. + +13,840. Would you prefer to have your liberty?-Of course; but +my days are done now. I have been bound to serve the estate since +I was eleven years of age, and now I am sixty. I was two years at +the beach when I was a boy; and I went to the ling fishing when I +was thirteen. + +13,841. Has there been any time since then when you could +have sold your fish to anybody else than the landlord or his +tacksman?-I could have sold some of them to small fish-curers +or yaggers if I had pleased; but I did not attempt to do so, because +I thought I was bound to fish for them. + +13,842. Are there small fish-curers or yaggers who buy fish on the +sly in the summer?-Yes. + +13,843. But in the winter you can sell your fish to any person you +please?-I don't think we can do that either. None of the tenants +can sell their fish in winter unless they do it privately. + +13,844. Do they all sell their winter and spring fish to Mr. +Robertson at present?-Yes. + +13,845. Have they always sold them to the proprietor or his +tacksman?-Yes, except those who sell them privately. + +13,846. Are there many yaggers about Lunna?-Not many. + +13,847. Do they come round in the course of the season and +attempt to buy fish from you?-There is one or two of them +in Skerries. Mr. Adie is there. + +13,848. But he is not a yagger?-No> John Hughson is also there. +Thomas Hughson was there for a while. + +13,849. Who does Hughson act for?-John Hughson has only one +boat; but I believe he would buy fish from any one if he could get +them. + +13,850. Where does Hughson live?-John Hughson lives at +Coppister, in the south-west part of Yell; and he has a man in +Skerries who cures some fish for him. I think they are in +partnership in some way. + +13,851. What is the name of the man in Skerries?-I cannot say. + +13,852. Have you seen men selling their fish to Hughson's factor +in Skerries?-No. + +13,853. But you know that he is ready to buy them-I hear that. + +13,854. Do you think that a man selling his fish to these men, or to +any other yagger, would lose his farm?-I don't know. + +13,855. But you don't sell to these people yourself, for fear of +losing your farm?-I wish to serve the man that I am bound to, +and to sell all my fish to him, so far as I can. + +13,856. Are you bound to fish for him by your own free will?-I +believe it is the landlord who has bound me, but I cannot say. + +13,857. Can the landlord bind you unless you agree yourself to be +bound?-I am his tenant, and I must submit to his terms. + +13,858. Could you not get another holding if you were not +satisfied?-The holdings are very difficult to get, because a +large part of Shetland has been laid out in sheep farms, and +tenants have no opportunity of getting places. + +13,859. Do you know John Johnston and Arthur Anderson, who +were once in Lunna, and who went over to Burravoe some years +ago?-Yes. + +13,860. Do you know why they left?-I cannot say, unless it was +because they were not satisfied in some way or other, and looked +out for better places. + +13,861. Did they not leave because they did not want to be bound +to fish?-I cannot say. + +13,862. Where do you get your supplies?-I purchase them in +Lerwick, or wherever I can get them cheapest, except when I run +out, and then I take them from the shop at Vidlin. + +13,863. Do you buy much in Lerwick?-Sometimes I buy a good +quantity; but when my stock runs out, I go to the merchant who is +nearest to me for any small thing I want. + +13,864. Then you don't get much of your supplies at Mr. +Robertson's shop at Vidlin?-I can get any supplies there that I +ask for, but I wish to go where I can purchase them cheapest. + +13,865. Can you purchase them cheaper in Lerwick than at +Vidlin?-Yes; but of course we must allow for freight. + +13,866. But, allowing for freight, do you think you are cheaper, on +the whole, by buying in Lerwick rather than in Vidlin?-Yes. + +13,867. What kind of goods do you get at Vidlin?-Meal or tea, or +anything I want. + +13,868. Do you get most of them there?-No; I only get a part. + +13,869. Does it depend upon whether you have a balance in your +favour, or cash in your hands, that you go to Vidlin?-I sometimes +go for credit and sometimes for cash. + +13,870. Do you get your goods at the same price there, whether +you get them on account or pay cash?-I believe I do. + +13,871. Is that [showing] your pass-book with Mr. Robertson at +Vidlin?-Yes. The account is kept with Mr. Robert Sutherland, +the shopkeeper there. I also produce an old account for 1864. + +13,872. Do you always keep a pass-book?-No; only at times. I +got that account just after the settlement. I thought it rather too +heavy, and I wished a copy of it; but I cannot say whether it is +accurate or not. + +13,873. Did you get a discount when you complained about the +account being too high?-I don't remember; but I have sometimes +got a small discount. + +13,874. Is the settlement at Vidlin generally in December?-It is +generally after Martinmas, sometimes sooner and sometimes later. + +13,875. We need not go back so far as 1864. Have you ever got an +account like that since?-No; I think that was the heaviest account +I ever had. + +13,876. You never disputed the rates you were charged since +then?-No, I never disputed them. + +13,877. Do you always get your account read over to you at +settlement?-Yes; Mr. Robertson sometimes does it. + +13,878. Do you settle with Mr. Robertson himself?-Yes. + +13,879. Does he always read over your account?-Sometimes he +reads it over, and at other times he allows me to get it read over by +Mr. Sutherland. + +13,880. Is there a separate account kept for any of your family?- +No. + +13,881. I see from your pass-book that in 1870 you got two +advances of cash in April and June?-Yes. + +13,882. Do you get cash advanced to you when you ask it?-Yes. + +[Page 347] + +13,883. Had you a balance to get at the settlement for 1870?-I +think I had. + +13,884. I see that on September 9th, 1870, you were charged +quarter boll best oatmeal, 5s. 8d.; September 26th, quarter boll, 5s. +6d.; one peck, 1s. 4d. Were you buying meal in Lerwick at that +time?-No; that was just about the time when I was getting in my +crop. + +13,885. Did you buy any meal in Lerwick last summer or +autumn?-I bought some in April before I began to the fishing. +I paid £2 to Mr. John Tait for sack of Orkney oatmeal. + +13,886. The book you have produced also contains your fish +account?-It contains a copy of it, which was made by my son on +Thursday night, from an old pass-book which I used in settling +with Mr. Robertson. + +13,887. In 1870 you got 7s. 3d. for your ling: did all the fishermen +in Lunnasting get the same?-Yes. + +13,888.,Was that the current price for the year?-Yes, but I +believe some got more. + +13,889. Did you hear that the people about Sandwick had got 8s. +3d. for ling that year?-Yes. + +13,890. Was that from Smith and Tulloch, the curers there?-I +don't know the men's names, but I believe it was. + +13,891. Do you think it would have been possible to pay you as +high as that, and to allow the fish-curer a decent profit?-I could +not know unless I had been dealing in the fish myself, but I don't +think it would have been possible. + +13,892. The current price this year was 8s. for ling, 6s. 6d. for tusk +and cod, and 4s. for saith?-Yes. + +13,893. Do you think there was a higher price paid anywhere else +this year?-I cannot say. + +13,894. If you had got the price that was paid in 1870 at Sandwick, +would you have had a larger sum to receive for your fishing?- +Yes; we would have received about £13 more for the crew on the +summer and harvest fishing. + +13,895. Do you fish much in harvest?-No; we sometimes fish +two weeks after old Lammas Day. + +13,896. Is that put into a separate account from the summer +fishing?-Yes, but it is all paid at the same time, because it has +been earned by the same crew. + +13,897. Do you sometimes fish in small boats in winter?-I have +done that on former occasions, but not now. I have dropped the +winter fishing. + +13,898. Did you sometimes take large quantities of fish in +winter?-Sometimes the fishing then was not very good. In +some years we might make a few pounds by it. + +13,899. Did you always sell your winter fish to the tacksman at +Vidlin?-Sometimes; but I cannot say that we did so always. + +13,900. Did you consider yourself bound to sell them to him?-I +believed I was bound. + +13,901. But you were not so strict in doing it in winter as you were +with regard to the summer fishing?-No. + +13,902. What led you to think that you were bound to sell your +winter fish to him as well as your summer fish?-I don't know. I +only knew that the tacksman wished to have them; but we did not +sell them all to him. + +13,903. Are you at perfect liberty to go to Lerwick for your goods +if you choose?-Yes. + +13,904. Does Sutherland or any one else ask you at settlement if +you want any goods?-No; they just give me whatever goods I ask. + +13,905. But do they ask you if you want anything when you are +settling?-At times they may, but not always. + +13,906. Do you settle in the shop at Vidlin?-We settle in the +office behind the shop. + +13,907. Do you go past the counter into the office?-Yes. + +13,908. After you have had your account read over to you, and the +amount of your fish stated, are you ever asked whether you want +any more goods?-No; not unless I please to take some. + +13,909. But are you ever asked if you want them?-I cannot say +that I am. If I buy anything myself, then they may ask me if I want +anything more. + +13,910. Do they not ask you unless you are buying something at +any rate?-No. + +13,911. Does not Mr. Sutherland sometimes ask you if you want +goods before you go in to settle?-No. + +13,912. If you take goods at that time, are they put into your +account for the past year, or do they go into your account for the +next year?-They are entered any way I choose. Perhaps they +may be marked down to account, or I may pay for them in cash if +it is any small thing. I don't wish to run a heavy account. + +13,913. Do you pay in cash for the articles you get in Lerwick, or +have you an account with Mr. Tait?-There are some merchants +who know me who would give me credit for perhaps twelve +months or so, but sometimes I pay cash down. + +13,914. I suppose they know that you have got something in the +bank?-It is not much. Mr. Robertson is my banker. + +13,915. Then you sometimes leave your balance in his hands at the +end of the year, and get interest on it?-Yes. + +13,916. Why do you not deal more with him for your supplies +when he is your banker?-I deal with him in Lerwick, but I deal as +little as possible at Vidlin, unless when I run out. + +13,917. Do you get goods from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?-Yes, I +get what I want. + +13,918. Have you an account with him here as well as an account +in the shop at Vidlin?-Yes. + +13,919. Do you get any meal from him in Lerwick?-Yes, and tea +and sugar. + +13,920. Do you get them cheaper from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick +than at Vidlin?-Yes. + +13,921. On the opposite side of your Lerwick account is there +entered any money or interest that is due to you?-Yes; Mr. +Robertson enters that in his book. + +13,922. Do you know whether John Hughson buys a large quantity +of fish in the course of a year?-I cannot say. + +13,923. Why do the men prefer to sell to him?-They do it of their +own free will. + +13,924. Do they get a larger price from him?-Perhaps they may, +but they only sell to him privately. + +13,925. Did any man ever tell you that he had got a larger price +from Hughson?-I don't remember. + +13,926. Would he be paying money at the time for the fish which +were sold to him?-Perhaps he might, or in any trifle of goods +which were needed at the time. There are some things which Mr. +Robertson may be out of in Skerries, and we have to go to another +merchant for them. For instance, if we wanted a refreshment of +spirits, or anything like that, we have to go to Mr. Adie for it. + +13,927. Does Hughson's man keep spirits too?-I don't know. +Perhaps he may have a little for supplying his own men, but I don't +know anything about that. + +13,928. Has Mr. Adie got a licence?-Yes. + +13,929. When fish are bought by Mr. Adie's man or by Hughson's +man, are they paid for at the time, or is there an account kept of +them?-I cannot say; perhaps the men may run a small account, +and settle it up afterwards. I have had to go to Mr. Adie for many +a thing, and I have run an account with him for them. + +13,930. Do you not sell fish to him?-No. + +13,931. You merely run an account with him for anything you +want?-Yes. + +13,932. Has Mr. Robertson not a shopkeeper at Skerries in the +summer time as well as Mr. Adie?-He has a small supply of +goods there, such as lines, and tea and sugar; but that is all. +Sometimes I required something else and went to Mr. Adie for it, +and sometimes I bought my stores at Lerwick. + +[Page 348] + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE ROBERTSON, examined. + +13,933. Are you a fisherman at Skelberry, in Lunnasting?-I am. + +13,934. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman, Mr. Robertson?- +Yes. + +13,935. How do you know that you are bound?-Because I +understand we are bound by Mr. Bell to fish for him. + +13,936. Who told you that?-When Mr. Bell came in to rule over +us at first, the agreement was that the tenants were to give the offer +of all their produce to him, and to no other man. + +13,937. Did Mr. Bell tell you that?-Yes. + +13,938. Was that about ten or twelve years ago?-It is longer ago +than that. + +13,939. Was it when Mr. Bell came to the estate first?-Yes. + +13,940. Did he buy your fish at that time?-Yes. + +13,941. Was there a meeting at which Mr. Bell told you that?- +Yes; it took place in the house of Lunna. + +13,942. How were you informed that Mr. Robertson became the +tacksman?-We were informed that he was the tacksman, and we +knew it. + +13,943. Was there a meeting at that time too?-I was aware of +none. + +13,944. You only heard that Mr. Robertson became tacksman, and +you don't remember who told you?-No. + +13,945. Have you always fished for him since, and got the current +price?-Yes. + +13,946. Do you get your provisions at the shop at Vidlin?-Yes; +and sometimes I get them from Mr. Robertson's shop in Lerwick, +if I ask them there. + +13,947. Do you keep an account at Lerwick also?-Yes, a small +account. + +13,948. Is it separate from the Vidlin account?-They are all +brought together and settled for at the same time. + +13,949. Do you get your goods cheaper when you come to +Lerwick for them, than when you get them at Vidlin?-I cannot +say, because I never had money to purchase them with. + +13,950. You have always had to run an account?-Yes. + +13,951. Had you a balance to get in cash at the end of last year?- +No; I was in debt. + +13,952. Have you been so for many years?-Yes. + +13,953. Have you sometimes bought your goods at other shops?- +Not often, because I did not have money to buy them with there. + +13,954. When you did buy them at other shops, where did you get +the money?-In the first part of the time I had a little; but I have +not bought anything at other shops lately. + +13,955. Do you not sometimes sell your winter fish for a little +money in hand?-No. + +13,956. Do you sometimes get an advance from Mr. Robertson?- +Yes. If I ask for a little money I get it. + +13,957. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. I have got an account of +my last year's dealings here. [Produces it.] + +13,958. Have you always had a pass-book?-No. + +13,959. Is this the first one you had?-Yes. + +13,960. You pay your rent to Mr. Robertson, and it is put into your +account?-Yes. + +13,961. You begin on December 12, 1870, with a balance against +you of £22, 18s. 8d., and that was increased at December last to +£39, 14s. 2d., including the rent?-Yes. + +13,962. You were credited at settlement with a payment of cash in +August of £2, and with the amount of your fishing, £18, 12s. 11d., +reducing the balance to £19, 1s. 3d.?-Yes. + +13,963. Where did the cash you paid in August come from?-It +came from the sale of an ox. + +13,964. Who did you sell it to?-I cannot exactly say, because it +was my wife who sold it. I was at Skerries at the time. + +13,965. Have you got any supplies since November from the +Vidlin shop?-Yes. + +13,966. Are the supplies of the men sometimes stopped when they +get too deep in debt?-Yes. + +13,967. Are they then put upon a certain allowance?-Yes. + +13,968. Is that a common thing about Vidlin?-I cannot say for +any one but myself. I have been put upon an allowance; but I +cannot say how much it was, because it was my family who always +got it. + +13,969. I see that in your book on June 14, 21, and 28, there are +entries on each of these dates of 24 lbs. oatmeal, and 3s. 81/2d. for +flour; was that your allowance?-I believe so. + +13,970. There are similar entries on July 5 and 12, and there is no +other entry till 26th July, when you got double the quantity, but it +is entered in a different form?-Yes. + +13,971. Did you understand that you were on an allowance all last +summer?-Yes. + +13,972. Was that done with the view of reducing the amount of +your debt?-Certainly. + +13,973. And it is considerably reduced now?-Yes. + +13,974. Do you think you will get it all wiped off?-I don't know. +It depends on the fishing and the crop. + +13,975. Are there many men are in the same position as +yourself?-That is a secret to me. I don't know how the men's +accounts stand with Mr. Robertson. + +13,976. Why did you get so far into debt?-I and my family had +a fever in the middle of summer about six years ago, and I got +behind then. My earnings were all stopped by the fever. + +13,977. Do you think that if you had ready money you would be +able to purchase your supplies cheaper than you can get them at +the Vidlin shop?-I don't know. Perhaps if I was trying, I might +be able to purchase them a little better. There are freights and +other things that must make them dearer at Vidlin than elsewhere. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SIMPSON, examined. + +13,978. Are you a fisherman at Valour, in Lunnasting?-I am. + +13,979. Are you a relation of Laurence Simpson, who has been +already examined?-I am his brother. + +13,980. Have you heard his evidence?-Yes, I heard good deal of +it; but his case is different from mine, because he has had ready +money with which to purchase things as he best could, and I have +not had it. I have been obliged to take my goods from the people I +was fishing to, because I did not have money with which to buy +them at any other place. + +13,981. Do you think he got his things rather cheaper than you in +consequence of having ready money?-I think so. + +13,982. Were you obliged to deal at the shop at Vidlin?-I was, +because I was in debt. + +13,983. Were you bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I was. + +13,984. Do you think you could have got a better price for your +fish if you had been free?-Perhaps we might; but we could not +ask for it, because we were bound. + +13,985. If you were free, would you attempt to cure your own fish, +or to sell them to another curer?-I might. + +13,986. Do you think you would make anything by curing your +own fish?-I think I would. + +13,987. Would you be able to give some idle time to it when you +could not go to sea?-If we were curing our own fish, two or three +boats would join together, and employ a man and a boy for the +purpose, and then the men would have all their time to go to sea. + +13,988. Would you have a factor of your own?-Yes, if we had +our freedom. + +[Page 349] + +13,989. Have you often thought about that?-We would have +thought about it if we had had our freedom; but we were bound, +and we could not do it. + +13,990. Have you got your pass-book?-I have had no pass-book +for some time. There was one year when I had a pass-hook for +some time, but it was not made up regularly, and it was given up. +Then the whole account was put into the ledger, and Mr. +Sutherland went over it with me at settlement; but the last year Mr. +Sutherland was busy, and we did not get it done. This year, +however, Mr. Robertson has given me a copy of the account for +the two years' transactions. I only got it to-day before I came +down here, but I cannot understand it very well. [Produces two +passbooks.] + +13,991. Did you get the copy of your account after you got the +summons to come here?-No. The girl came with it just about the +same time that the summons came. She had been over at the shop, +and she brought the summons with her. + +13,992. Did you ask Mr. Robertson at settlement for a copy of your +account?-I asked Mr. Sutherland to read over my account, and +when I went to hear him read it he said he would give me a copy, +and he has put it down in a pass-book. + +13,993. I see here an entry on 17th current, 'To paid freight on b. +meal, 5d.' What does that mean?-It was a boll of meal I got from +Lerwick, and very likely Mr. Sutherland has paid the freight for +me. + +13,994. Did you get that meal from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?- +No, I got it from William Smith. + +13,995. The balance against you in December 1869 was £30, 5s. +3d., and it was reduced at last settlement to £21, 17s. 111/2d.?- +Yes, I have brought it down to that by my two years' earnings. + +13,996. How did you happen to have such a large debt?-I had a +fever in the same year that Laurence Robertson was ill, and I +earned no more that year, although the fishing then was a good +one. My illness brought me into debt that season, and I have never +been able to clear it off. + +13,997. I see in your account on 7th September last, 'By balance +to kelp, per son Robert, 6s. 4d.' How does that go into your +account?-The boy had some things out of the shop, and that has +likely been to pay for them. + +13,998. Had he an account of his own for kelp?-He had no +account, because he is not old enough yet but he was working with +his mother and sisters at the kelp, and he got some clothes. + +13,999. Had his mother and sisters some out-takes from the shop +while they were working at the kelp?-Yes. + +14,000. And the 6s. 4d. would be what was due on the kelp above +the amount of these out-takes?-It was what they allowed the boy +for his share of the kelp. + +14,001. Had your wife and your daughters accounts of their own +separate from yours?-Yes. + +14,002. Do the other members of your family always have +accounts of their own, independent of your account?-They +have had accounts for kelp, and perhaps for some other trifles +besides. + +14,003. Do they take in hosiery at the Vidlin shop?-Very little. + +14,004. Do they take any of it from the members of your +family?-I don't know if they have much to give them, but if +they wanted a little at a time they might have taken some of it +to them. + +14,005. I see on September 22, 'By 74 lbs. wool at 111/2d.' What +was that?-It was wool that I gave into the shop to help to pay off +my account. + +14,006. Was that all the wool off your sheep for the year?-It was + not the whole of it. I had a little more than that. There had been +some of it used for my own family. The sheep were kept in a park +which Mr. Bell had taken in. We had it as a free pasture before, +but he took the pasture from us, and rouped the park for £15, to +keep 200 head of sheep. That was the reason why we were bound +to give our produce to Mr. Robertson. I considered it right in me +to give him the wool, in order to pay for the rent of the park; but +previously we had that pasture at our own freedom. + +14,007. Were you bound to sell the wool and the sheep in that +pasture to Mr. Robertson?-Mr. Robertson was the cautioner to +Mr. Bell for the rent of it, the same as he was for the rent of our +toon. + +14,008. Was he the tacksman?-Yes. + +14,009. And Mr. Robertson let you the park?-No. Mr. Bell let us +the park. It was his own property, but Mr. Robertson was +cautioner for the rent. + +14,010. Was the park at Lunna House?-No. It was a park about a +mile to the south of Lunna. We were allowed by Mr. Bell to put +200 head into it, and we did so; but there came a dearth, and it +could hardly bear that number. + +14,011. Have you got the park still?-Yes, I and my brother and +Mr. Anderson. There was another man interested in it at first, +Hunter Sinclair, but he gave up his share, and now the three of us +have it. + +14,012. Have you one-third share of the sheep which are put upon +it?-Yes. + +14,013. And this was the wool which had been produced from +these sheep?-Yes; and because Mr. Robertson had become bound +for the rent of the park, we thought we ought to give him the wool +in return. + +14,014. Was 111/2d. the current price for wool last autumn?-I +cannot say. That was what we got for it from Mr. Sutherland. + +14,015. Did anybody else offer to buy it from you?-We did not +offer it to anybody else, because we thought he had a better right +to it, as he was paying the rent. There were several people asking +me for it, but I would not sell it to them. + +14,016. How much did they offer you for the wool?-We never +came to any particular agreement about the price, because I would +not consent to sell it to them at all. + +14,017. Did they not say anything about what they would give +you?-They spoke of 1s.; but I thought it better to sell it for 111/2d. +wholesale than to sell it to them for 1s., even although I had had +power to do it. Besides, I thought Mr. Robertson had the best right +to it. + +14,018. Had Mr. Robertson told you that he expected to get your +wool?-I cannot say that he had. + +14,019. Had Mr. Sutherland told you that?-If I could have paid +my debt he would not have asked it. + +14,020. But did Mr. Sutherland tell you that he expected to get +your wool?-Sometimes he would ask me if I would give him the +wool, and that I would be better to give it to him than to sell it to +another. + +14,021. Even at a halfpenny less?-Yes. + +14,022. How do you sell your eggs?-We sell them mostly to Mr. +Sutherland, and get small stores for them at the time, such as tea or +sugar, or anything we want. They do not go into the account. + +14,023. The eggs are never paid for in cash?-No; but I have no +doubt we would get cash for them if we asked it. + +14,024. But you always choose to take tea or sugar?-Yes, just the +things we are needing. + +14,025. Is that the way in which all the people in your +neighbourhood do with their eggs?-I cannot say it is the way +with the whole of them. Perhaps some of them may take them to +other places for anything they want; but I believe most of the +people dispose of them in that way to Mr. Sutherland. + +14,026. Do you know Robert Murray at Swinister-Yes. + +14,027. He is a merchant there, and keeps a shop?-Yes. + +14,028. Does he sometimes buy fish?-He buys small fish, like +what are called hand-line fish, or fish caught with lines near the +shore; but I cannot say whether he has the summer time or not. He +may have, for anything I know. + +14,029. Does he sometimes engage people to fish for him in the +winter or spring or summer?-I don't know. + +14,030. Do you know whether he once engaged a [Page 350] man +named Peter Williamson?-I heard so. I heard that Williamson +was bargained to fish to Robert Murray, and that Mr Robertson +would not allow him to do so. I never asked Mr Robertson about +that. + +14,031. Are you a relation of Mr Robertson?-I am his cousin. + +14,032. Does Murray sometimes buy fish in the same way as the +yaggers do?-He buys fish in his own shop; but I don't know that +he goes to the Skerrries, or anywhere at a distance to buy fish. + +14,033. Do the men sometimes go to him when they want a little +ready money or supplies that cannot be got at Vidlin?-There are +none of the fishermen at Lunnasting who go to him, so far as I am +aware. + +14,034. Is his place a long way from where you live?-Yes; it +takes me a good day when I go there by sea, and it is a long way by +land; but I never sold a tail of fish to him in my life. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, MARGARET JAMIESON, examined + +14,035. Do you live in Quarff?-Yes. + +14,036. Are you sometimes employed in knitting?-Yes, in +knitting and dressing. I have also a little farm which I work, +but I generally work at the knitting and dressing when I can get +that kind of work to do. The farm is my brother's but he is very +ill. + +14,037. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it given out to you +by the merchants?-I always knit with wool which I purchase for +myself. + +14,038. What kind of things do you knit?-Shawls, veils, haps, +plaids, and other things. + +14,039. Are you always paid for these in goods?-I sold a plaid to +Mr Sinclair in the spring when I was unwell, and did not get it +settled for until the summer. The price of the article was 18s., and +I asked a halfpenny from him, and he refused to give it to me. + +14,040. Did he not give you the halfpenny?-He gave it to me in +the end, because I had to post a letter, and I got the halfpenny from +him for that purpose. + +14,041. Was the postage of that letter only a halfpenny?-No, but I +had another halfpenny of my own, and I required the halfpenny +from him to buy a stamp with. On Wednesday last I sold a plaid to +him for 20s. and asked 2s. in cash at the end of the settlement, but +they refused to give it to me. I then asked 1s. 6d., and they said if I +got that they would mark it as 1s. 9d. against me. + +14,042. Who said that?-It was one of the serving-men in Mr +Sinclair's shop; I don't know his name. Then I asked 1s., and he +said it would be 1s. 3d. against me; but I refused to take it on that +footing. I then asked for 9d. which he consented to give me, +saying he did not have it in the shop, but that he would borrow it +from one of the clerks or serving-men. + +14,043. Did he say he did not have 9d. in the shop?-Yes. I got +6d. and left 3d. due, which I could not get unless I took calico. + +14,044. You did not put him to the trouble of borrowing the 9d.?- +He borrowed 4d. from one of the persons there, and he found 2d. +in the counter. + +14,045. Do you think there was no money in the till at that time?- +I do not know anything about it except what he told me. I consider +from my own experience, and from what I hear from others, that +we are very much like the Hebrews of Egypt,-very much +burdened down with many things, and not able to bear our +burdens. + +14,046. When you took the shawl in the other day, which you sold +for a pound, did you bargain that you were to get payment for it in +goods?-There was no bargain made about it. + +14,047. When you sold the shawl in the previous spring, was it +marked down in an account, or did you get a line for it?-I got a +line for it. + +14,048. Did you send in your shawl?-No; I went in and sold it +and asked a line, which I got. + +14,049. Did you not want the goods at the time?-I got some +goods and the balance in a line. + +14,050. But you did not want to take the whole in goods?-No, I +refused to do that. I did not want them until afterwards. + +14,051. Does it often happen that you don't want goods when you +sell your shawls, and that you would rather have money?-We +would rather have money, because there are many things that we +require it for. There are many taxes we have to pay, and there are +many things we can only buy with money. + +14,052. Would you take a lower price for your hosiery if you could +get cash instead of goods?-I don't know, because goods will help +us through a part of the year as well as if we got a little money. I +consider our hosiery is worth what we sell it at, even although it +was paid in cash. + +14,053. Where do you get your wool?-I get it from any person +who has wool, and who will exchange it for a little tea or hosiery, +or a bit of calico or yellow cotton. + +14,054. Do you spin it yourself?-Always. I am not able to get it +spun for me, because that has to be paid for in money, and I cannot +get the money. + +14,055. Are you not able to pay for worsted?-No, because it has +to be paid for in money; and I am not able to put the wool to the +spinner, because that would require money too. + +14,056. Do you sometimes have to pay money for wool?-If we +can get a day's work or anything of that kind to do, we may get a +little wool in exchange for it, but it is not very often we can get +that. + +14,057. Have the people who sell wool generally a fixed price for +it?-Yes, according to the fineness or coarseness of it. + +14,058. What do you pay for the finer wool?-It may be about 1s. +6d., according to the quality of it. I think the cheapest we can get +is 1s. + +14,059. But you get it by barter; do you give goods for it at the +same price as you paid for them?-Generally we give a parcel +of goods, and they will give us so much wool as they think it is +worth. It is never priced at all; we merely give a small parcel of +tea in exchange for so much. + +14,060. Do you sometimes buy wool at the shops in Lerwick?- +No, I cannot say that I ever bought any there. + +14,061. Have you any sheep of your own?-Very few. We +sometimes get wool from them, but not much. + +14,062. Have you sold wool from them?-Never. + +14,063. Can you not get as much wool off your own sheep as +serves you for your own work?-No, we don't have so many of +them as that. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled. + +14,064. Do you wish to say anything about the evidence which +Margaret Jamieson has just given?-Yes. I wish to explain that +those in the shop have no power to give money except by referring +to my father. Then with regard to the want of money in the shop, +it may have happened that my father had taken the money with +him to the bank, as very often happens. Frequently when there is +some small change in the drawer, it is given away upon lines or +something of that kind. I suppose that is the explanation of what +the witness has said. + +14,065. But I suppose the practice is that you don't give money at +all unless you can help it?-If the bargain is made for money, then +we give money; but I don't see that we have any right to give +money when the bargain is made for goods, any more than if the +bargain had been made for goods we could compel them to take +money for it. Sometimes my father is [Page 351] very unwilling +to take hosiery, and would rather not buy it, either for goods or +money. That is frequently the case when he is not requiring the +article, or when the article is of inferior value. + +14,066. Was what the witness said correct about 1s. 6d. being +offered to her in money for 1s. 9d. and 1s. for 1s. 3d.?-It depends +on circumstances. In some cases if an article was sold at 1s. for +goods, the person might get 9d. or 10d. for it in money, according +as the article was worth it. If it was an article which we had a +special order for, we would perhaps give 10d., because we would +soon get the money back again; but if it was an article that was +likely to lie for some time, we would only give 9d. for it. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, senior, examined. + +14,067. You are a merchant in Lerwick, and tacksman of the estate +of Lunna?-I am. + +14,068. Have you a fish-curing establishment at Vidlin?-It is at +Skerries. We take a few fish at Vidlin, but there is not much done +there. + +14,069. But you have a store at Vidlin?-Yes. + +14,070. Have you also a curing establishment in Lerwick?-We do +very little with it. We sometimes take a few dried fish here. + +14,071. You were present to-day and heard the evidence of some +men from Lunnasting parish?-Yes. + +14,072. Do you wish to make any observation or any statement +with regard to that evidence?-I think there are no particular +observations I can make, except with regard to the difference +between the charges for goods in Lerwick and in the country. +We always have some additional expense upon the goods which +are sent to the country, but we make the difference as small as we +possibly can. + +14,073. What should you say was the difference between the +prices charged at Vidlin and those which you would charge in +Lerwick?-Perhaps from 21/2 to 5 per cent.; but the fact is, that +for some things the prices are the same. For instance, cotton +goods are the same price. + +14,074. Can you land them at Vidlin at very nearly the same price, +as at Lerwick?-Yes. The amount of freight would be very small, +and we make a point to sell them at the same rates. I put on the +prices myself, and I know that we sell these articles at the same +price as here. + +14,075. I understand the men on the Lunna estate are under +obligation by the tenure on which they hold their land to fish +for you?-Yes, if they fish at Skerries. Mr. Bell has booths and +beaches there; and seventeen years ago he applied to me about +them. I was very reluctant to go into the matter at all, but he asked +me to assist him, and I agreed to do it, and we have been dealing in +that way ever since. + +14,076. Has Mr. Bell an interest in that yet, except that he receives +his rent from you?-No. He has no interest in it whatever, except +that by his arrangement with me he is secure in getting his rent. + +14,077. Have you any fishermen fishing for you who are tenants +upon other estates than that of Lunna?-Not at that place. I have +had several people in Nesting, on Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground. +They have fished for me perhaps for thirty years; but it is very little +they do, and they generally give their fish dry. + +14,078. Are these winter or summer fish?-Both winter and +summer. + +14,079. What do you pay for a fisherman's summer fish of his own +curing?-Their own fish are generally never so well cured as when +cured by the merchants themselves. This year I paid the men £21 +for their own cure, and I don't think I could get above that for +them. For my own cure the current price was per ton. + +14,080. What were the circumstances connected with the case of +Peter Williamson who had come under an engagement to Robert +Murray at Swinister last season?-I don't know what engagement +he came under to Murray, but Williamson denied it to me. All I +can say about it is that he is a tenant of Mr. Bell's, and that when +he settled his account at Vidlin with me it was understood he was +to fish again; but one of his partners had engaged to go with +another boat of mine, and he (Williamson) did not know very well +whether he would manage to get a boat for the fishing or not. I +suppose he had made some kind of statement to Robert Murray +about that; but at that time Williamson was really very much +indebted to me. I had kept him and his family alive with meal for +year after year, and he was very far behind; and it would scarcely +have done to have allowed him to go anywhere he liked. I got a +crew for him, and then he was quite willing to go and fish for me. +I think he ought to have asked me first before he made any +promise to any other body, because he knew that it was the rule on +the estate to fish for me if they fished from Skerries at all. There +are many of the Lunna tenants who never fish for me, but who fish +for Mr. Adie or go to Faroe and Greenland, and I never stop them +from doing that at all. + +14,081. It is not part of the understanding that any men who go to +Faroe or Greenland should go in your boats?-No. + +14,082. If a man goes to Faroe or Greenland, he is free to go for +whoever he likes?-Yes. + +14,083. Is he free if he stays at home?-If he goes to Skerries, as +there is an establishment there belonging to the estate, and which +must be kept up, it is understood that any man going there must +fish for me; but Mr. Adie has a good many of Mr. Bell's tenants +fishing for him, and when people go to Feideland I never interfere +with them. + +14,084. Are there many of them who go so far as Feideland?- +Yes, a good many. The Delting tenants do that. + +14,085. I understand you had a considerably smaller number of +men employed last year than you had some years ago?-Yes; they +had succeeded very well for two or three years previously, and +they had received a good deal of supplies, and I did not ask or +force anybody to go to the fishing unless they chose. I told them +that if they could do better otherwise, I should be very glad if +they did so; but I am sorry to say that those tenants who fished +elsewhere, or who went to Greenland, did not seem better off. + +14,086. How do you engage your beach boys and curers at +Skerries?-I generally engage them by the week. + +14,087. Are they mostly connected with the Lunna estate?-Yes, +generally; but sometimes I engage others. + +14,088. Then you don't pay, as they do in other places, a beach fee +by the year?-We settle with them at the year's end. We cannot +very well do otherwise. + +14,089. Are they engaged on weekly wages?-Yes. + +14,090. That is to say, the wage is counted by the week?-Yes. + +14,091. It is not a fee for the season?-No; it used to be, but I +found it better to pay them by the week, and let them know what +they have to get. + +14,092. Is that wage fixed at the commencement of the season?- +Generally it is, but sometimes it is not. Sometimes we don't know +what the boys can do, as we have not tried them; and we like to +see what they are fit for before we arrange what they are to be +paid. We generally give them what we consider a fair thing. + +14,093. These people, you say, are settled with at the end of the +year, and they have been taking supplies as they require them?- +Yes; they require little meal and other things to live upon. + +14,094. Do they get these at Skerries in the course of the +season?-Yes. + +14,095. And these supplies are accounted for at settling time?- +Yes. + +14,096. Have the people so employed in curing generally a balance +to get, or do they generally exhaust [Page 352] their wages in +supplies?-That depends very much upon the disposition of the +party. + +14,097. But what is the fact in the general run of cases?-We +generally have a balance to pay them. The dealings of these beach +people are usually small. They cannot be very large, but they +generally have a balance in their favour, and they get what is due +to +them in cash as soon as we ascertain its amount. + +14,098. Do they get a small sum of cash, if they want it, in the +course of the season, for any particular purpose?-Yes; I keep cash +at the station for that particular purpose, so that none of the men +may be disappointed if they want it. + +14,099. But I suppose it is a very small proportion which they ask +for in cash?-They cannot expect much. They don't need it. + +14,100. They have nothing to do with it at a place like that?-No; +but whenever they want it they get it; and sometimes when they +get +cash, they don't put it to the best purpose. They are near a spirit +shop there. + +14,101. Is that Mr. Adie's?-Yes. + +14,102. Is his the only spirit shop there?-Yes. + +14,103. Do you think people supply themselves more with +liberally with spirits and other luxuries in the fishing season than +they do during the rest of the year?-I think not, generally. + +14,104. They are working harder at that time, are they not?-Yes. + +14,105. And they would require a larger supply?-Yes; but the +men are not very much addicted to that. A few individuals may +be; but the men, upon the whole, are not extravagant in that way. + +14,106. I noticed that a purchase of meal was made by Thomas +Hutchison in Skerries at your shop about January 1868. Can you +tell me what the current price of meal was at that date?-I was +told it was in 1867, and I looked up the prices for that year. + +14,107. I have found, however, that it was in 1868. What do you +think the price was at that time?-I would not like to say, because +the price of meal varies so much; but I will look my books, and +mention what it was. + +14,108. You were engaged in the herring fishing one time, I +understand?-Yes; and I unfortunately am a little engaged in +it still. It has been a complete failure lately. + +14,109. What is the nature of the arrangement with the men in that +fishing?-The men are generally understood to have the nets and +the boats. The boats are their own property. If a crew wants a +boat, which costs from £17 to £18, I have to pay for it; but I wish +them to have the name of owning the boat, and I charge them hire, +although the hires really cannot pay the price. I wish them to call +the boats their own, and I do not debit them with the price, but it is +charged in a separate account to the crew. + +14,110. Is that account debited yearly with the hire of the boat?- +Yes. + +14,111. How do you arrange about the nets?-They are also +entered in a separate account for the crew. + +14,112. How is the payment for the fish arranged?-The men get +one half of the fish for their labour, and the other half goes to the +credit of the boat and nets. It is entered to the credit of the boat +and net account, and the other half of the fish goes to their own +account. + +14,113. Is there a fixed hire for the boat and nets?-There is no +fixed hire. We generally charge £1 for the herring fishing, and £2, +10s. for the haaf or summer fishing. + +14,114. How long does the herring fishing last?-About six weeks; +but the men rarely go to it at all, because lately there have been no +herrings on the coast. + +14,115. Then it is hardly a hire that is paid for the boat and nets, +but you furnish both and get one half of the fish?-Yes. + +14,116. There is no account for the boat and nets, except that you +take one half of the fish and the other half is divided among the +men, without any other deduction, unless for the amount of any +account which they may have incurred?-Yes. + +14,117. Is the price of the herring fixed at the commencement of +the season?-I never made any arrangement about that with them, +but usually paid the price which Messrs. Hay & Co. paid. But we +have got none to pay for lately at all. + +14,118. How long has that fishing been in existence here?-For +four years with me, but there has been a herring fishing existing +here for a long time. + +14,119. Are Messrs. Hay the principal parties engaged in it?-Yes. + +14,120. Then the herring fishing here is not conducted on the same +principle as at Wick?-It is not. + +14,121. No price per cran has been fixed at the beginning of the +season?-I think not. + +14,122. Is there any particular reason for that?-I don't know any +reason for it at all. + +14,123. I suppose it has been rather assimilated to the other fishing +speculations of Shetland?-I believe so. + +14,124. The arrangement you enter into is as nearly as possible the +same as exists in the other branches of the fishing trade here?- +Yes. + +14,125. There is a settlement at the end of the year for the summer +fishing?-Yes. The men are settled with for both branches of the +fishing together. + +14,126. In a letter which you wrote and sent along with the returns +you have made, you say, 'In the year 1868 I paid about £300 in +cash advances for the people on the herring fishing alone, which +has since then turned out a complete failure. These circumstances +account for the large amount of debt shown to be due in the year +1870.' Does that mean that when the people went to the herring +fishing you had to make considerable advances to them in cash?- +I may explain that these men had been fishing for Mr. Adie, and a +number of them were due him money on account, and I paid all +their advances and cleared them off with Mr. Adie. I took them +into my own hands, and of course these sums had to be debited in +the men's accounts. + +14,127. At that time had you gone into the herring fishing more +largely than before?-Yes. + +14,128. Had you no men engaged in the herring fishing then who +had been fishing for you in the home fishing before?-No, I had +not been in the herring fishing for twelve years before. + +14,129. But had you any man who had been engaged in the home +fishing of the year before for you?-Yes; the men had all been +engaged at the ling fishing for me, but they fished for Mr. Adie in +the herring fishing as soon as the ling fishing was over, and some +of them seemed anxious for a change, and others not. + +14,130. For what change?-That I should have the herring fishing +as well as the ling fishing. It was their own request that I should +begin the herring fishing again, and I thought it was as well to do +it. + +14,131. Had they had accounts with Mr. Adie, as regards the +herring fishing, separate from what they ran for the time they +were employed in the ling fishing with you?-Yes. + +14,132. Did Mr. Adie go out of the herring fishing altogether when +these men left him?-No. He is in it still, but he had not so many +hands employed in after they left him as he had before. + +14,133. You thought it a reasonable thing, when you took away his +herring fishers, that you should take their accounts with them?- +Yes; that was suggested by some of the men to me, and I intimated +to Mr. Adie that some of the men wanted it, and that it would be as +well to carry it out. + +14,134. Did the men say to you that they had accounts with Mr. +Adie?-I knew that. + +14,135. And perhaps they demurred a little, or felt little difficulty +in leaving him in that state of matters?-They did not say much +about that, but I thought it was fair to clear Mr. Adie if I took away +the men who had been engaged to him. + +14,136. Have you ever known such an arrangement [Page 353] +being made when a change of employment took place in any other +branch of the fishing business?-No. + +14,137. If a man shifted from one employer to another in the home +fishing, has it been usual for the new employer to take over any +debt that the man may have incurred to the previous employer?-I +should suppose that would be reasonable, but I am not aware that it +has been generally the case. + +14,138. Have you known any instances where it has occurred?-I +think I remember one or two instances. + +14,139. But you don't know of any special arrangement between +merchants to that effect?-No. + +14,140. And you have not entered into any such arrangement +yourself?-No. + +14,141. Did any of the men object to the debt which they had +incurred to Mr. Adie being transferred to you?-No; I think they +were rather pleased at it, because they were afraid Mr. Adie +would have been hard upon them for it. + +14,142. Might he have been harder after they left his service?- +There is no doubt he would, and he would have had a right to be +so. + +14,143. Do you purchase kelp on the Lunna estate?-Yes. + +14,144. Does your tack include a lease of the kelp shores?-In +point of fact I have no tack, but merely a letter, and just now I am +acting upon a verbal agreement from year to year. I can give it up +whenever I choose, on giving it short intimation. + +14,145. Does that arrangement include the kelp shores?-Yes. + +14,146. What is the price allowed by you for kelp?-4s. 6d. when +paid in goods. + +14,147. Is there a different price when it is paid for in cash?-Mr. +Sutherland manages that matter; but I am pretty sure that he pays +only 4s. in cash, and anybody can get that who chooses. + +14,148. But I suppose most of them take it in goods-Many of +them do. It is it very convenient way for them, and the goods are +not charged any higher in consequence, but we consider that the +profit on the goods enables us to give a higher price. + +14,149. How many of the women may be employed in that way?- +Perhaps about sixty, taking it as a rough guess. + +14,150. All these people, I presume, have accounts open at the +shop at Vidlin, as I have seen to be the case in other parts of +Shetland?-Yes. We would be very glad if the accounts were +less, but really it is impossible to work with the people without +them. It is almost impossible to get the balances brought down, +but we never refuse them cash when they have it to get. + +14,151. Do you purchase wool to any extent?-No, I don't do +anything in the hosiery line. + +14,152. Do you think it would be possible to carry on the +fish-curing business here profitably without combining it with +the other business in the shop at Vidlin?-I don't see how it +could be done. + +14,153. But supposing it could be done,-supposing the people +could get their supplies elsewhere,-would the fish-curer be able +to carry on his business at profit?-All they would do in that case +would merely be to take a commission, as they now do, for selling +the fish. They calculate upon getting that commission at present, +and that is what they would expect under another system; but the +people unfortunately cannot do without these supplies. Some of +the men, however, are well off. For instance, the man Laurence +Simpson, who was examined today, is very well off and can do +without advances. He can buy his meal wherever he chooses. + +14,154. Would it be a profitable thing for the fish-curer if he +were content with that commission, without having a profit on +his goods?-Perhaps that might be done, but I don't know. + +14,155. Is there any other point you wish to mention?-I have +heard some of the men who have been examined here, saying that +they would like their freedom. I have no objection to any man +having his freedom and being allowed to cure his fish for himself, +but I suspect such a system would destroy the character of the fish +in the country if it were gone into. The fish would be injured by it; +I know that by experience. The cure would not be so good as it is +at present. + +14,156. But if the men had their freedom, would they not employ +a factor for themselves or would it not come to this in the end, +that the men would sell their fish to any curer who was most +convenient for them?-Many of them would cure their own fish, +which they do now in some places, but we never can get the +quality of the fish good enough when they are cured in that way. +They cannot be put in among fine fish, because the men do not +dry them so well as they ought to be, and they will not keep for +any length of time. + +14,157. Would they not very soon find that out, and either employ +a fish-factor for the curing of their fish upon the co-operative +system, or return virtually to the present system and sell their fish +to any merchant who would take them, with the exception that he +would pay for them in ready money?-I am afraid any change of +that kind would affect the quality of the fish. + +14,158. But if it affected the quality of the fish, the men would +soon find that they did not get so good a price for them?-Yes. + +14,159. And they would either return to the old system, or to +some one under which the curing of the fish would be equally +good. The men would not be content permanently to take a +lower price?-They might be obliged to take a lower price, +although they did not know it. + +14,160. But I have been told today that the Shetland people are a +very intelligent class, and they would surely have intelligence +enough to discover that they were getting a lower price than they +might get for their produce?-Some of them are intelligent, and no +doubt they would discover that. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, examined. + +14,161. Are you a clerk in the employment of Mr. Leask?-I am. + +14,162. How long have you been in his service?-About nineteen +years. + +14,163. Have you been principally concerned with the engagement +and settling with seamen employed in the Greenland whale +fishing?-Principally, of late, since the settlement at the Custom +House was commenced. That was five years ago. + +14,164. Were you not employed in that way before?-Yes; not +altogether, but along with others. + +14,165. Before that time, the accounts of the men, I understand, +were always settled at Mr. Leask's office?-Always. + +14,166. And the men were paid merely the balance in cash?- +They were paid the balance, but they had to get cash during the +currency of their account besides that. They always got advances +of cash in the course of the year if they wanted them. + +14,167. The balance that was paid to them at the end in cash +was the settlement for their wages and their first payment of +oil-money?-Yes. + +14,168. Was the settlement for the final payment of oil-money +generally made at a later period?-Always at a later period. + +14,169. Was there always a settlement before the last payment of +oil-money became due?-Always, except when they happened to +be in debt. + +14,170. They might be in debt to a greater amount than anything +that was due to them?-They might, but of course, if a man had +money to get, he was sure to come forward when he required it. + +14,171. Were the accounts which were run with the men at that +time larger than you now allow them to incur?-I should say not. + +[Page 354] + +14,172. Are there some men even now who are indebted at +settlement to the full amount of their wages and oil-money?- +Very few. + +14,173. But that does occur?-It may be the case with some of the +young hands. + +14,174. Does that happen now as often as formerly?-I daresay it +does. It depends on the success of the voyage; but we are rather +more particular now than we used to be. + +14,175. In what way are you more particular now?-We know +better what time the voyage will occupy and we always keep +within the mark as far as possible. + +14,176. Is there less security now for getting your money paid at +the proper time than there was formerly?-I cannot say that we +have experienced that. + +14,177. Previous to 1867, you said the settlement of the men's +accounts generally took place before the last payment of oil-money +was due?-Yes, always. + +14,178. Was that not so only in the greater number of cases?-It +was always the case. The final payment was only a few shillings +in general, and it was usually a considerable time before the +owners advised us what amount of oil the vessel had turned out; +so that if a man had the bulk of his wages to get, he generally got +them a long time before the second payment of oil-money came. + +14,179. Was the second payment usually made before the man +engaged for another voyage if he was going?-In some cases; but +if the man lived at a considerable distance from Lerwick, he would +not come in for the few shillings which were due him for his +second payment until he was about to engage again. + +14,180. How was that second payment made? Was it in money, or +generally in goods?-If the man had the money coming to him, it +was usually paid in money; but sometimes he may have got a little +advance on his second payment. + +14,181. If that was the case it would be in his account?-Yes, a +continuation of his previous account; but we did not care much +about advancing on second payments, because they were so +uncertain. The vessel might not turn out nearly so much as was +expected. + +14,182. You are aware that a new system was introduced about +1867 or 1868?-Yes. + +14,183. And since that time you have been employed in going up +to the Custom House to settle with the men?-Yes. + +14,184. Do you take a quantity of cash up with you and hand it +over to the men in presence of the superintendent?-Yes. + +14,185. Have you, since that system began, invariably taken up +your ledgers containing the men's accounts, or any note of the +amount of their accounts, with you?-Of course we have never +taken up the books. + +14,186. Did you at any time take any notes or abstracts of the +men's accounts?-I always took a note of the sum which each +man had to get. + +14,187. Was that a note of the sum which each man had to get for +wages and oil-money?-No; it was a note of the actual amount +due to the men, because each man had an account of wages +furnished to him previously. + +14,188. Had he received that from the captain?-No; the account +of wages was made up by the agent on shore from the captain's +store-book. + +14,189. Is that account of wages always made up by the agent and +handed to the men before settlement?-Yes. + +14,190. Is it not sometimes taken up with you to the settlement?- +The man always carries it up with him. + +14,191. When you go up to the Custom House, are you provided +with any note of the amount of the man's account due to Mr. +Leask?-In the first years, I think we had that occasionally. + +14,192. In what form did you take that up?-Just slip. + +14,193. Was that a note of all the items in the account?-No + +14,194. It was just a note of the total sum due to Mr. Leask?-Yes. + +14,195. Have you not done so since the first year?-I think not. + +14,196. When did you last take such a slip with you to the Custom +House?-I think not after the first year, so far as I can recollect. + +14,197. The first year of what?-The first year, say, 1867; I think I +have not done it since that time. + +14,198. Can you not tax your memory so far as to say whether or +not you had it in 1870?-I did not have it in 1870; I am quite sure +of that. + +14,199. Nor in 1871?-Nor in 1871. + +14,200. May you have had it in 1869?-I think not. + +14,201. Was the last time you had it in 1868?-To the best of my +recollection I think it was. + +14,202. May you have had it in 1869, although you don't +remember?-I think not, but I cannot be quite positive. + +14,203. But you are quite clear about 1870, that you had no note +whatever of the men's accounts with you, except what was entered +in the account of wages?-Yes. I did not require it then. It could +do no good. + +14,204. Why was it required in 1868?-Because sometimes the +men settled their accounts at the Custom House. + +14,205. Would that be done often?-Sometimes; but not as a rule, +I think. + +14,206. When these regulations were introduced, and you first +went up to the Custom House to settle, was it not intended that +all the accounts should be settled there and then?-That was the +regulation. + +14,207. Was it intended that all Mr. Leask's accounts should be +paid at the same time that the men got their money handed over in +presence of the superintendent?-There was no formal proposal +about that. + +14,208. Was it not done in some cases?-In some cases it was, +when the men agreed to do it. + +14,209. Did the superintendent object to that?-He did not object. +The whole money was paid down to the men, and sometimes they +gave back what they knew they had to give back. + +14,210. Would that be done in one half of the cases?-I could not +speak to a proportion. + +14,211. When they did not hand back then what was due to Mr. +Leask, what was done?-They handed it back when they came +down to the office afterwards. + +14,212. Do they come down to the office now and pay their +accounts after being settled with at the Custom House?-Yes. + +14,213. Do you settle with five or six or a dozen of them at a time, +as the case may be?-Yes, any number, from one up to a dozen, or +perhaps more. + +14,214. Is the settlement with these men after they have got their +cash always carried out and finished on the same day at Mr. +Leask's office?-Yes, invariably. + +14,215. Do they come straight down from the Custom House to the +office and pay their accounts there?-They generally come in the +course of the day. + +14,216. Do they come down along with you?-If it is only one +man who has been settled with, perhaps we will come down +together, and perhaps not, just as it happens. I have no fear for +them coming down. I never bother my head about them after I +give them the money. + +14,217. Do you leave them to come down or not as they please?- +Decidedly. + +14,218. Is there never a black sheep to whom you have to suggest +the propriety of coming straight down?-The men know they have +the money to pay, and they look upon it as a just debt. + +14,219. Is there not a note kept if a man fails to come down?-We +are not likely to forget that. There is no note of it kept. + +14,220. Do you note the fact that you have settled with him for his +wages and oil-money?-Yes. The account is squared at once as +soon as we come down from the Custom House. + +14,221. Do you not note the fact in some form or [Page 355] other, +that the man has not come down to settle his account when he has +failed to do so?-No, the book would show that without any note. +I may say, however, that I have scarcely ever had a case of that +kind, except it may be one. + +14,222. Was that Robert Grains?-Yes; and even he did come +down ultimately and settle his account. He was settled with along +with about a dozen others, and they all went down. Some of them +had been settled with before I came down from the Custom House, +but he did not come until I came myself. + +14,223. Did he come down with you?-No; he came down +himself. I believe the other lads induced him to come back to +the shop and settle his account. + +14,224. Had he at first refused to do so?-He had been telling the +lads that he was going to keep the money or most of the money. I +think they said he wanted to go right away and never come near +the shop at all, but they induced him to come. + +14,225. Did he give any reason for wanting to go away?-Nothing, +except that he wanted the money for some other purpose. + +14,226. Was his account for goods equal to the whole amount of +his wages?-He had about £1 to get. + +14,227. That means that he had all his money to hand over to you +except £1?-Yes. + +14,228. Did you speak to him on the subject?-I did. I asked him +if he meant to swindle us out of the money for the outfit that he got +to enable him to go to Greenland. + +14,229. Was it at the Custom House you said that to him?-No, it +was at the office after he had come down. He said no, but that he +required money to pay for a boat or to buy a boat, or something of +that kind. + +14,230. Did that happen on the day of settlement?-Yes. + +14,231. Had you understood before that he was intending to go +away without paying your account?-No, I had no idea of it. + +14,232. Then how did you happen to ask him that question?-He +came back to the office after he came out from the Custom House, +and he was going to give back part of the money, but he wanted to +keep more than he actually had to get after paying Mr. Leask's +account. + +14,233. But how did you know that he required persuasion to +induce him to come back and pay his account?-I recollect the +other lads telling me that they had induced him to come back. + +14,234. Had they told you about that before Grains came down?- +I scarcely think so. I think there were several of them there along +with him when I came down. + +14,235. Did he come down from the Custom House along with +you?-No. + +14,236. Was he at the office when you came down from the +Custom House?-I am not quite sure whether he was actually +there when I came down, but most of that crew were discharged +that day. They had been landed the day before, and most of them +were discharged on the day after they landed. + +14,237. I don't quite understand how you knew about Grains +having been unwilling to pay his account?-I knew it when he +came to the office to give back the money that I had paid him at +the Custom House. + +14,238. Did he refuse to give you back the money?-He did; not +all, but part of it. + +14,239. Did he want to pay only a portion of his account?-Yes. + +14,240. Did he say that to you when he came to the office?-Yes. + +14,241. Was that the first intimation you had got of his intention to +keep part of the money?-I think so. + +14,242. Did you object to that, and tell him he must pay the +whole?-I did. + +14,243. Did you intimate what the consequences would be if he +did not?-Yes; I daresay I told him that we would pull him up. I +considered that we had run a considerable risk in giving him an +outfit for his first year at Greenland, and that we were entitled to +get the advance repaid, because we might never see him again. + +14,244. Have you had occasion to advise any of the men on other +occasions as to the propriety of paying agents' accounts, or giving +them similar advice to what you gave in the case of Grains?-No; +I think that was the only case which has occurred out of many +hundreds. + +14,245. Have the men always walked down quietly enough to your +office?-Yes. + +14,246. And often in company with you?-Very often. Perhaps, if +there was one, he came back with me; but, as a rule, I would often +stay behind for a little, or go down to the office by some other +way. + +14,247. Then possibly the men may have gone to the office before +you?-They often did. + +14,248. When you had a batch of them at the Custom House, did +you not send some of them down to the office direct, while you +waited to finish your settlement with the others?-They were +settled with one by one; and they went away as they were settled +with. + +14,249. But as they were settled with, did you not send them down +to the office?-They went of their own accord. + +14,250. Did you never tell them to go to the office?-They knew +to go. + +14,251. Did you never tell them?-I have seen me telling them to +go as soon as possible, because I wanted them to be settled with +and away before I came down. Mr. Robertson generally would be +waiting for them, and he might have to go out. + +14,252. Do you mean that Mr. Robertson would be expecting +them?-Yes. + +14,253. And he might have other engagements which he had to +attend to as soon as their business was over?-Yes. + +14,254. Therefore I suppose you may often have had occasion to +tell them to go down to the shop direct from the Custom House?- +I may have told them to go as soon as possible. + +14,255. Did you not always do so?-No. + +14,256. Did you not always tell them so when you thought it was +necessary?-No. + +14,257. Do you mean that you may have thought it necessary for +them to go to the shop and settle, and that yet you refrained from +telling them so?-I never thought much about it at all. I just gave +them the money; and sometimes I would tell them to go to the +shop as soon as possible, because Mr. Robertson would be waiting +for them. Sometimes that was about the dinner-hour, and very +often they would not be there until I came down myself. I would +be engaged settling with them up till three o'clock. + +14,258. Did you consider that it was not necessary on every +occasion to tell them to go back to the shop?-Yes. + +14,259. Was that because the men understood quite well that +they were to go to the shop and settle their accounts?-The men +understood that quite well. They understood they had got the +money that was due to them from the shop, and they understood +that in general they had accounts in the shop for cash or goods, +and sometimes for advances to their families, and they required +no persuasion to go and repay these sums when they had got their +money. + +14,260. Did they know that they were expected to go down to the +shop?-They were expected to go. + +14,261. But did they know that they were expected?-They knew +it. + +14,262. So that, although they might have had debts due to other +merchants, they were expected to go down and pay Mr. Leask in +the first instance?-Yes. + +14,263. And you expected that, although those debts to other +merchants might have been incurred earlier than Mr. Leask's?- +The debt contracted on the voyage was the first debt to be settled, +and it was always understood that that debt had first to be paid, +because it was all incurred during the voyage. + +14,264. You mean that it had been incurred for the purpose of the +voyage, and you held that you had a [Page 356] prior claim on the +proceeds of that voyage for the amount of your account, just as a +merchant has a lien on the supplies he furnishes to a shop?-Yes. + +14,265. Would you have objected to the men going away and +paying the earlier accounts before they paid Mr. Leask's?-Of +course, if they paid them out of that money. + +14,266. Had you instructions from Mr. Leask, or Mr. Robertson, or +any one in Mr. Leask's employment, to see that the men did come +down and pay their accounts?-I had no such instructions. + +14,267. Did you consider that a part of your duty?-I did not +consider it to be any part of my duty at all. If I had a dozen men +to settle with, I settled with them one after another, and they went +away. I did not tell them to stay there until I came with them, or +follow them down by any means. + +14,268. Was it no part of your duty to warn a man who was going +away without paying, that he had first to settle his account at the +shop?-No, I never saw a man who went away without paying. + +14,269. But suppose the case of a man who did so: was it any part +of your duty to remind him of the debt which he was due to Mr. +Leask?-No. They did not require any reminding. They knew +quite well about it. + +14,270. Why did you cease to settle with the men in the Custom +House after 1868?-Because the shipping master objected, and +would not allow it to be done. + +14,271. Was it to you, or in your presence, that he took that +objection?-Yes, I was present. + +14,272. Did he take the objection in any particular case when a +settlement of that kind was going on with the men?-No, there +was no particular case. + +14,273. Did he do so at a time when you were settling with a +man?-Yes; either with a man, or two or three men, I forget +which. + +14,274. What took place then?-The men just went to the office. + +14,275. Did you remonstrate with the superintendent?-No. + +14,276. You just went down to the office with the men, and settled +with them there?-The men went to the office, and I finished my +business at the Custom House and went down too. + +14,277. Did you consider it a grievance to be prevented from +settling with the men in the Custom House?-If the men were +agreeable for it, I thought there was nothing wrong in it. It was +entirely with their concurrence that it was done. + +14,278. Is there anything else you wish to say wish to say?-I wish +to say that I have examined the books, and I find that Mr. Jack +Williamson's rent at Ulsta was not advanced after Mr. Leask +purchased the property. I now show the valuation roll of 1860, +where it is entered at £8, 10s., and in 1871 it is entered at the same +sum. That rent included the farm and all accommodation-the +shop, beach, booth, and everything. + +14,279. I see he was tenant of an additional subject in 1871, for +which he paid a rent of 10s.; and of grazing park at Ulsta at a rent +of £6?-Yes; but the 10s. includes the dwelling-house, shop, farm, +and all accommodation he had about the place. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ADAM TAIT, examined. + +14,280. You are a shopman to Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I am. + +14,281. Did you purchase a hap lately from Margaret Jamieson, +Quarff, who has been examined today?-Mr. Sinclair purchased it, +and I settled with her for it the time she sold it. + +14,282. When was that?-About three days ago. It was a long +plaid she sold. + +14,283. What was the price of it?-20s. in goods; and that was +paid. + +14,284. To what extent did you supply her with goods?-I gave +her 19s. 6d. worth of goods and 6d. in cash. She wanted 3s. in +cash. I told her the bargain was made in goods, and I could not +give it to her in cash. Besides, there was no cash in the drawer at +the time. Then she thought of something else she wanted, and I +borrowed 6d. from the clerk in the end gave it to her. + +14,285. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. 6d. in cash it would be +charged as 1s. 9d. against her?-I believe I did say that she would +be charged 2d. in the shilling if she wanted cash, as the bargain +had been made in goods. + +14,286. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. in cash it would be +charged as 1s. 3d. against her?-No. I merely said it would be +2d. in the shilling. I might have given her the cash she asked if +we had had it, but there was no change in the shop at the time, +and I had to borrow the sixpence that I gave her. + +14,287. On what day was that?-I think it was on Wednesday last, +but I am not certain, and about twelve or one o'clock in the day. +I recollect the transaction very well, as the woman seemed to be +ill-pleased when she went out. + +14,288. Is it a frequent thing to tell a woman who asks for cash; +that there is no cash in the shop?-No; that does not often happen. + + +Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled. + +14,289. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to the +evidence which has just been given?-I wish to say that it often +happens that we have no small change in the shop, unless we get +change for £1 and any cash that we get during the day is frequently +given out again for goods before night. Therefore it is no evasion +to say that there is no cash in the shop, because it is often the fact. + +14,290. That happens in a great many shops, and it may happen +more frequently in a shop where the cash transactions are few and +barter transactions prevail?-Yes; it happens more frequently in +that case. + +<Adjourned>. + + +LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 29, 1872 + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Mrs. CATHERINE WILLIAMSON, +recalled. + +14,291. I understand you wish to make a correction on the +evidence you gave on the first day of this inquiry?-Yes. I stated +that I had sold a shawl to Mr. Laurenson; but I should have said it +was to Mr. George Laurence, Commercial Street, Lerwick, and not +to Mr. Arthur Laurenson. + +14,292. Was the rest of your evidence correct?-Yes. + +[Page 357] + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, recalled. + +14,293. Do you wish to make any addition to your former +evidence?-Yes. I wish to say with regard to the Accountant to +the Board of Trade's report, that I consider it unjust to the agents +concerned in the Greenland trade, and I concur generally in all that +was said by Mr. William Robertson on that point. + +14,294. Is there any particular fact in that report, apart from +matters of opinion, which you think is incorrectly stated?- +The report commences: 'In accordance with my instructions, I +paid special attention to the circumstances attending the official +discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling +vessels, great difficulty and delay having been experienced by the +Board of Trade in getting the releases for such voyages completed +within anything like a reasonable time.' I do not consider that to +be correct. The Board of Trade never fixed a time for the releases +to be completed, and consequently the men do not come for their +settlement until it suits their own convenience. + +14,295. Do you mean that before 1868 no rule existed on that +subject?-There is no time fixed even now for the men to come. + +14,296. Does not the third head of the regulations provide +that, when the men are landed, the master shall deliver the +store-book, and that the balances due shall be paid in presence +of the superintendent?-The master does deliver the store-book +when the crew are landed, but the regulation does not say that the +men are to appear immediately before the superintendent. If they +would remain in town, that would be done; but they prefer going +home, especially when they are not required by the regulations to +remain. + +14,297. The Merchant Shipping Act provides that the master or +owner shall pay the wages of every seaman within three days +after the cargo has been delivered, or within five days after the +seaman's discharge, whichever first happens?-These are the +terms of the Act; but that never was the rule in the Greenland +trade, because the men are landed in any part of Shetland the ship +first comes to, and the men never come forward to Lerwick to be +settled with until it suits them to come. + +14,298. I don't know that Mr. Hamilton lays the blame upon the +agents for the delay in getting the releases completed?-Not in +that sentence, but he does so subsequently in his report. He says, +'When the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, +under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the +Shetland portion of the crews should not be settled with at once.' + +14,299. Do you say that that is not for the agent's interest?-I say +that it is not. It is not for his interest to delay the settlement, and +the settlement is not delayed by him. + +14,300. Is it not for the agent's interest to have the money in his +hands as long as possible?-Perhaps if he has the money in his +hands, he may make a few shillings of interest; but when the men +come forward individually to settle, there is more time spent in +making the settlement than any profit he can make can cover. +Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But no time is fixed for settlement, and +the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it +until he gets the man in debt to him again, and when he does +pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the +superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to +the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater +amount.' That statement is not consistent with fact. + +14,301. Is it not true, as you have already stated, that the seamen +do hand back to the agent the money which they have got?-Yes, +but it is not true that they are indebted to the agent in an equal or +greater amount. + +14,302. You think the amount of debt is not generally equal to the +amount payable in wages?-I am quite sure it is not. + +14,303. Was it, at any time in your experience, common for a man +to have an amount of debt to the agent equal to the amount of his +wages and oil-money?-Very often, when they had made a bad +voyage, the younger hands would be in debt. + +14,304. Mr. Hamilton says, in another part of his report: 'For this +purpose to engage the men at Lerwick, they employ agents in +Lerwick, who get, I am informed, little direct profit from their +agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of +the earnings of the men;' is there anything incorrect in that, in +point of fact?-It is quite correct that the agents have little direct +profit from their agency. The remuneration is quite inadequate for +the amount of work and expense connected with the trade. Then +he says, 'These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are +proprietors of land themselves, or act as land agents for others.' +There are only four agents altogether, and there are only two of +them who are proprietors of any quantity of land. The others do +not act as land agents, so far as ever I heard. 'Many of the men +engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to +provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage.' +That applies chiefly to the young hands, who require extra clothing +when going to such a cold climate, and they get it from the agents. +'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in +favour of the agents.' I never saw that. It is not done in Mr. +Leask's business. Of course I cannot speak with certainty for +the others, but am pretty certain it is not done in any case. + +14,305. In your experience the seaman takes no allotment note at +all, so that the only advances which are got during his absence are +those which are made through the agent in the shape of supplies to +his family, without any allotment note being required?-Yes. We +have always done so. + +14,306. But the agent is quite aware that no allotment note has +been granted?-Yes. + +14,307. So that the effect is just the same as if the allotment note +had been given to the agent?-It is not quite the same in settling +with them, because we have to pay the whole money to the men; +whereas, if an allotment had been granted, it would have been +deducted. + +14,308. But if there is no allotment note made out to the man, and +given to his wife or any of his friends, the agent has not to pay the +money away?-No. + +14,309. So that he is in perfect safety to make advances in the +shape of any supplies which may be required during the man's +absence?-He is quite safe to do that if the man pays him back +at the end of the voltage. + +14,310. At least he is in greater safety than if the man's friends +were in a position to draw part of his wages during his absence, +because he knows that the wages cannot be spent?-Yes. If the +man's family have a note, that is all the advance they require in +general; but as it is when a family have a weekly allowance, I +should say they get about one half of their allowance in cash. + +14,311. Do the families have a weekly allowance from the +agent?-In some cases. + +14,312. Is that done by private arrangement?-Yes. + +14,313. Are these families residing in Lerwick, or mostly in the +country?-Mostly in Lerwick. Families residing in the country +only send in occasionally for anything they may require, but they +are not by any means bound to do it. + +14,314. But is it a common thing for the families of men residing +in Lerwick, or near it, to get a weekly advance in provisions or in +money?-It is quite common. + +14,315. Is it mostly in provisions or mostly in money that that +advance is given?-I think it is about one half in money. They +always get some money. + +14,316. Is that entered in the man's account?-Yes. Then it is +not correct to say that a man who wants to take his outfit from any +shopkeeper is practically debarred from doing so. He can do so if +he likes. + +14,317. Does he ever do it?-There is no doubt he does. + +14,318. Have you ever known any case of a man doing so?-Yes, +plenty. We know that when a man does not get goods from us, he +must get them somewhere else. + +[Page 358] + +14,319. But he may have had an outfit before, and did not require a +fresh one for that voyage?-He may. + +14,320. Have you ever known a man who required an outfit for a +voyage taking it from any agent but the one who engaged him?- +Yes. + +14,321. Can you name any case of that kind?-I could not exactly +name a case. + +14,322. Could you show me any case in your books in which the +man has not got some outfit from you?-Not very many, I think. +On short voyages to the sealing, a considerable number of the men +would not require it. Men who had been going there for years, and +who were only going on a short voyage, would be well enough +provided with clothes. Generally men who get good wages are all +provided with their necessary outfit. + +14,323. But you think you could show me very few cases in your +books in which a man did not require some outfit and did not get +it from you?-On long voyages perhaps there are not many. + +14,324. Did you ever supply an outfit to a man going on a whaling +voyage upon the engagement of any of the other agents?-I think +not exactly an outfit; but we have sold them individual articles. + +14,325. Did you ever do that on credit?-I daresay we have. + +14,326. Do you know that you have?-Yes. + +14,327. In what case?-I could not exactly name a case, because if +a man comes in wanting to buy anything we sell it to him, if the +other agent did not have it, or he did not choose to take it from +him. I know that has been the case both with us and with others. + +14,328. Have you run an account with the man for that?-If he +was well known to us, we would have no objection to give him +credit. + +14,329. But can you name the case of any man who was engaged +for the whaling by another agent and who received credit from +you?-I could not name a case. It is done just in the ordinary way +of trade, and we would not pay any attention to a case like that. +We could not be expected to recollect where every customer was +going. + +14,330. Is it not the case that every man who engages with you +does take so much of his outfit as he requires from Mr. Leask's +shop?-I think that is very generally the case; but he does it +because he chooses to do it, and because, I suppose, he thinks he +will be as well served there as by going elsewhere. With regard to +the report, again, I say that the greater proportion of the men are +settled with in a reasonable time. + +14,331. Do you mean within six months?-The greater proportion +of them are settled with in one month. + +14,332. That is the case now?-Yes. + +14,333. But formerly the time was considerably greater, was it +not?-I don't think there was much difference. The men came +then when it suited them, and they do the same now, except when +they are all landed in Lerwick at one time, and choose to stay few +days in town to get the settlement carried through. They are not +bound to a day now more than they were then; but the releases and +official papers in the Custom House can prove the proportion of +men discharged within the month. + +14,334. Mr. Robertson showed me some accounts with Greenland +whaling men in which there was a charge for insurance upon +outfits: is that an arrangement made by you with the men?-Yes. + +14,335. Have you explained to them the nature of the charge, and +why it was made before entering it in your books against them?- +Yes; we have been doing that for the last fifteen years at least. If +the vessel is lost, then the men don't pay for the outfit; it is paid by +the insurance. + +14,336. Mr. Leask is also an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' +Fund, and there is a charge of 3s. made at the beginning of each +man's account for a payment to that Fund?-Yes. + +14,337. Does that 3s. cover the loss of clothing?-They get that in +addition. When the vessel is lost, the man gets an allowance for +clothing, and also the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners' +Fund. He gets the allowance for clothing in this way: that he pays +nothing for the goods if the vessel is lost, and then he gets the +allowance from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society in addition, +and is sent home free if he is landed in any part of the kingdom. + +14,338. Therefore that is a double insurance?-Yes. + +14,339. If a man is lost, his widow, in return for the 3s., gets an +annuity or some allowance?-Yes. The amount of it depends on +the number of years he has subscribed, and the number of his +family. It varies considerably; but she gets an allowance at first, +and generally a small annual grant. + +14,340. Is that 3s. paid in every case when the men are going +to Greenland?-It is such a small payment, and they have +experienced so much benefit from it, that they never object to +it now. + +14,341. I suppose that charge is entered in a man's account as a +matter of course?-Yes. + +14,342. You say that if a man who subscribes that 3s. loses his +outfit, or his boat, or anything, that is covered by the insurance, +and he is entitled to a certain payment, which is made by the +agents?-Yes. + +14,343. Is that payment always made in cash?-Always. + +14,344. How long is it since it has been universally made in cash at +your agency?-It has always been made in cash, so far as I had to +do with it. + +14,345. Do you remember of any sums of a few pounds in cash +being paid from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-There are +often payments of that kind. + +14,346. Do you remember any case of it man being refused +payment of his allowance in cash?-No. + +14,347. Or being asked to take goods?-No, I don't recollect any +such case. + +14,348. Do you remember the case of a man named Williamson +from Coningsburgh having a claim against Mr. Leask, as agent for +the Society, in respect of a loss which he had sustained, and falling +within the conditions of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I +don't recollect anything about the case or about the man. + +14,349. Do you remember any case where the amount due from +the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund was put to the credit of a person +insured, in order to reduce the debt due by him to Mr. Leask?- +No, I don't recollect any such case. + +14,350. Can you say that that has never been done?-I cannot say +that exactly. Perhaps if the man chose to put the money to his +account it would be done. + +14,351. But can you say it has never been done where the man did +not choose to put the money to his account?-It has never been +done where the man did not choose, so far as I know. + +14,352. Do you know any case in which Mr. Leask has asked the +man to do it, or has proposed to do it, and the man has resisted?- +No. + +14,353. Is an allowance of that kind sometimes put to the credit of +a man who has an account in Mr. Leask's books, and taken out in +goods in the course of the year?-It may be in some cases. + +14,354. Is it not usually the case when a sum of that kind falls due +that it is entered to the man's credit?-That is not usually the case, +because nobody knows whether it will be paid or not, or whether +the man will have a claim to receive money. + +14,355. But when you know that it is due, and that it is to be paid, +and the man happens to have an account, is the amount not just +entered in that account and credited to the man?-It may be in +some cases, but it is only when a man is wrecked that he is entitled +to any allowance from the Society; we don't know when he is to +be wrecked, and therefore he cannot get advances on the faith of a +claim against the Society. + +14,356. I am not speaking about advances on the faith of a claim; +but when the money is due, is it not generally put into the man's +account?-Not generally, but there may have been a case or two of +that kind. + +14,357. Is it generally handed over to him in cash?-Generally. + +[Page 359] + +14,358. Even when a man has an account, and when the balance +of that account is against him?-The man perhaps will not require +it to be handed over to him if he had an account and wished the +amount of his debt to be reduced by putting that to it. In that case +there would be very little occasion for a transfer of the cash, but I +can scarcely recollect any cases of that kind. + +14,359. I am not asking whether the man wishes it or not, I am +asking whether it is ever done, or whether it is generally done?-I +should say it is not generally done. I would say it is almost never +done. + +14,360. How many of these payments have you to make in the +course of a year?-In some years there are very few. + +14,361. Will there sometimes be a dozen?-Perhaps there may, +but I could not say, without the books. + +14,362. And you say that out of the dozen payments which you +make, one half of them will pass through the men's accounts?- +No, I should not say that. + +14,363. Should you say that three out of every dozen did so?-No, +I should not even say that. + +14,364. Should you say that one in every dozen passed through +the men's accounts?-I might say one, but I could not be sure. It +might be less, or it might be none at all. + +14,365. Might it not be more?-It is not a regular business +transaction at all, and it is very seldom that such a thing ever +enters the accounts. It is a present payment for an accident +happening to a man, and he just gets the money, and there is no +more about it; but it might happen occasionally that he applied it +towards payment of a debt. + +14,366. The premium or subscription of 3s. universally passes into +the man's account?-Yes. + +14,367. I cannot quite see why the payment of a policy should not +also go into the man's account if he has one?-It is only when a +man is wrecked that such it payment is to be made. There are +many men who have been paying for twenty or thirty years, and +have never had occasion to claim against the Society, while there +are others who have. + +14,368. But if a man happens to have an account running with Mr. +Leask, do you say that the payment is made to him in cash rather +than put in to the account?-No, I don't say that, because the man +might make no difficulty in applying it to his account, if he had +one; but we are applying for men from different parts of the +country who have no account with us, and in these cases the +money is paid over at once. + +14,369. In the majority of cases in which the money is paid +through you when it is due, is it not to the men who have paid +their premium through you?-By no means. We issue a great +many tickets to men who are not in our employment at all,-men +going south, and fishermen on the islands. I think we are generally +called upon to make applications in cases of loss in preference to +the other agents, and that money is paid over to the men at once. + +14,370. Then do you say it is the case that the money is entered in +the man's account whenever he has an account with you?-If the +man to whom the money was to be paid had an account, it might +probably be put to that account; but of course it would only be +done with the man's concurrence. + +14,371. Did you ever know any man object to that being done?-I +cannot say that I ever did. + +14,372. Are you sure that you never did?-Yes, I am sure. + +14,373. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to correct +the statement made in the report, that it is the interest of the agent +to delay the settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again. +I say that is not the fact. + +14,374. Is it not the fact that that is the interest of the agent?-It +may be the interest of the agent, but it is never done. + +14,375. The report only says that it is the interest of the agent: it +does not state that he does it?-I think it does. It says that the man +is indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount, and that it is +the interest of the agent to delay settlement until he gets the man +in debt to him again. What I object to in that statement is the +impression conveyed by it, that all the men are in debt to an equal +or greater extent than their earnings. I think that is the way in +which the statement would naturally be read; but, as a rule, the +men do not run accounts after they come home until they settle, +and then they will only buy what they require. They are never +importuned to buy or to take goods, nor is the settlement delayed +for that purpose. + +14,376. You say the men are never importuned to buy anything. +Are they not asked at settlement if they want anything?-No. +Their money is paid them as soon as they call for it, without any +demur. + +14,377. I know it is; but are they not asked at that time if they want +to take any goods?-After they have got their money we may ask +them if they want anything; and if they are as well served by us as +elsewhere, sometimes they do buy some goods. + +14,378. I suppose in a number of cases the men are quite ready to +take what they want from your shop, and to pay for it with the cash +they have got?-Yes.* + +*Mr Jamieson afterwards put in the following Return in +supplement of his evidence:- +RETURN relative to the Discharge of Greenland Seamen from +Vessels for which Mr. JOSEPH LEASK was Agent. Year 1871. + +Ship's Name and Voyage No. of men Date of Place of + En-gaged Landing Landing + + +a Camperdown, sealing voyage 33 Apr. 30 Lerwick +b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 Apr. 17 Lerwick +c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 Apr. 17 Lerwick +d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 Apr. 21 Scalloway +e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 31 Apr. 17 Lerwick +f Victor, sealing voyage 30 June 1 Lerwick +g Alibi, sealing and + whaling voyage 19 July 21 near Scalloway +h Total 206 62 52 +i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 20 Oct. 26 Lerwick +j Polynia, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 19 Oct. 26 Lerwick +k Narwhal, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 14 Oct. 29 Scalloway +l Camperdown, Davis Straits + Whaling voyage 26 Nov. 11 Lerwick <via> + Longhope +m Total 79 + +Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in + Apr. May June July +a Camperdown, sealing voyage 25 +b Polynia, sealing voyage 12 11 +c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 15 3 +d Narwhal, sealing voyage 13 9 +e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 22 4 +f Victor, sealing voyage 19 5 +g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 4 +h Total 62 52 19 9 +i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits + whaling voyage +j Polynia, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 19 +k Narwhal, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 14 +l Camperdown, Davis Straits + Whaling voyage +m Total + 79 + +Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in + + Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec +a Camperdown, sealing voyage 3 1 1 2 +b Polynia, sealing voyage 3 6 2 +c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 10 2 +d Narwhal, sealing voyage 2 2 3 +e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 2 1 +f Victor, sealing voyage 19 4 1 +g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 10 1 1 +h Total 33 4 7 13 5 +i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 8 10 2 +j Polynia, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 19 +k Narwhal, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 13 1 +l Camperdown, Davis Straits + Whaling voyage 21 5 +m Total 8 63 8 + +Ship's Name and Voyage + Not Dis- Totals Remarks. + charged + at + Year's + End + +a Camperdown, sealing voyage 1 33 157 men returned in April, of whom +b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 95 were landed in one day. 114 were +c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 discharged by the end of May. +d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 I requested the rest to return for +e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 31 discharge not later than August, when +f Victor, sealing voyage 30 the ling fishing terminated. +g Alibi, sealing and whaling + voyage 19 +h Total 2* 206 * The only cases I ever had. +i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 20 +j Polynia, Davis Straits + whaling voyage 19 71 out of 79 landed in October and +k Narwhal, Davis Straits November were discharged in a month. + whaling voyage 14 +l Camperdown, Davis Straits + Whaling voyage 26 +m Total 79 + + + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, WILLIAM BRUCE TULLOCH, examined. + +14,379. You are a merchant and shipping agent in Lerwick?-I +am. + +14,380. You have been engaged as an agent for Greenland [Page +360]whaling vessels for some time?-Yes, on my own account, or +as a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., for five years. + +14,381. Before that, you were in the employment of Mr. Leask?- +Yes. + +14,382. I understand you desire to make some statement with +regard to the evidence which has already been led upon this +subject?-Yes. I heard a part of the evidence of Mr. Wm. +Robertson; and some parts of what I heard I could not agree +with. In the first place, with reference to the handing of lists of +balances at the end of the year by one agent to another, he said +that practice had been discontinued for a number of years. So far +as I know, that is not the case. + +14,383. Does that practice still exist?-I know nothing to the +contrary. + +14,384. To what do you refer?-To the balances that may be due +by men to the agents. + +14,385. Have you in your business had such lists handed to you, or +have you handed them to other agents in the trade?-Yes. + +14,386. Is that still done?-It has been done within the last five +years. It was the only legitimate way of keeping before you the +men who were in debt. When they went from one agent to +another, that was the only way in which we could know where they +were, or whether they were still continuing to go in the trade; but, +of course, when any balance was recovered, it was always with the +entire concurrence of the indebted person. + +14,387. Do you mean that when any balance was paid by an +agent on his behalf it was with his concurrence?-It was always +understood to be with his entire concurrence. + +14,388. I suppose the practice you refer to came to this, that an +agent to whom a man was in debt was able to recover from the +agent who engaged him for the subsequent year in the Greenland +voyage the amount of his debt or a part of it?-Yes, that was the +object of it. + +14,389. And the agent so paying became the creditor of the +seaman, and trusted to be repaid out of the man's earnings from +the voyage which was begun?-We might have a list of perhaps +half a dozen men from an agent, and it might happen that only one +of these men had been out for that agent for that year. If the man +had the means to pay and was willing to pay, then of course he left +it with the agent to do so. + +14,390. If he had not the means to pay, was it usual for the agent +engaging him for that year to advance the money?-Never. I +never knew of a case where a debt was paid in that way, unless +when the man had money to receive at the end of the voyage. + +14,391. Then, at the end of the voyage does the agent receiving +that list retain the money?-He would retain the money, and give +a note to the man, or send the money with the man. + +14,392. Would he send the man down to your office?-The man +would often come himself, and sometimes be the bearer of a note +stating that he left that money with the agent. + +14,393. Has that been done since the regulations of 1868 came into +force?-The regulations were in 1867. + +14,394. The copy I have is dated 1868?-1867 was the first year +that the men had to be paid at the Shipping Office. + +14,395. Was there a previous notice to that I have got, which is +dated February 1868?-I am not quite sure; but if there was one, I +think it must have been something similar. + +14,396. The change of procedure may have taken place without a +notice; but you say that there was a change made in 1867?-Yes. +That was the first year when we were obliged to pay the whole at +the Shipping Office. + +14,397. Have the lists you refer to ever passed since that new +system was introduced?-Yes. + +14,398. Can you remember the last time when such a list was +handed to you?-I have a case here in point. In a book of the +'Arctic,' which I now produce there is an entry in the account of +Magnus Thomson, dated 29th April 1868, 'By value in account +with Hay & Co., 10s. 3d.' + +14,399. The man was credited in the account for a sealing voyage +with 10s. 3d., paid by Hay & Co. to you, the balance having been +against him in his account with you for a previous sealing voyage +to the extent of 11s. 9d.?-Yes. + +14,400. Was that done in consequence of your handing Hay & Co. +a note showing that balance against the man?-Yes. + +14,401. Can you say whether any such cases have occurred since +1868?-I don't recollect any other case. + +14,402. Have you ever handed such lists to Mr. Joseph Leask, or +any person in his establishment, or received them from his +house?-I went along one day and mentioned the names of two +men to one of Mr. Leask's men, but I had no list. + +14,403. Who was the person to whom you mentioned the +names?-Mr. John Jamieson, the brother of the young man +who was examined just now. I told him the names of two men +who were indebted to me, and asked him if he would be kind +enough to mention it to them. A day or two afterwards one of +these men went to settle with Mr. Leask at the Shipping Office, +and was discharged, and shortly afterwards he came and paid me +a sum to account. I may mention that I was aware they could +not keep the amount off the man's account; but I mentioned the +matter to Mr. Leask's people, because I knew they would have an +opportunity of seeing the men when they came to be discharged, +and I wished them to remind them of their debt. + +14,404. I suppose it was expected that if any case should occur in +which a debt was due to Mr. Leask, you would do the same good +office for him?-Yes. + +14,405. Have you done so for Mr. Leask?-I am not aware that I +have. + +14,406. Have the names of any persons been suggested by Mr. +Leask's people to you, in order that you might, if they were +engaged by you, remind them of their debt to him?-Not so far +as I recollect at present. + +14,407. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr. +Robertson?-When you referred to the case of a man not having +settled for his second payment until the time when he engaged for +another year's voyage, you asked him if, when he got that second +payment and his first month's advance for the following voyage, +he left much of that money with the agent. Mr. Robertson stated +that in many cases he did; but in all my experience, which has now +extended over thirty years, I seldom ever saw a man leave any part +of his first month's advance and his second payment both at the +same time with the agent. If he did, it was an exceptional case. + +14,408. Did he usually transmit it to his family for their +maintenance during his absence, or spend it at the time in +supplies for them?-Yes; in the case of a married man, I think +the most of it was sent home, to be a provision for his family +during his absence. + +14,409. Is it usual for the man, at the same time, to send home a +certain amount of supplies for his family upon an account?-Very +often that was the case. + +14,410. Is it not the case now?-It is not done to the same extent +now, in consequence of the recent Board of Trade regulations, +because the men don't get nearly so many advances. + +14,411. Is the agent not willing to trust them to the same extent +now?-No; they do not get the same sort of supplies now which +they did formerly, which was generally meal. + +14,412. But does the agent still afford them supplies of another +kind?-He gives them an outfit for the voyage. + +14,413. Does he not generally go beyond that in the supplies +which he gives to them?-Not to anything like the same extent +as formerly. + +14,414. In fact he restricts their credit?-Very much. + +14,415. Would you say that the advances given in that way are +now reduced by one half?-Fully. Another statement which Mr. +Robertson made was, that [Page 361] their books don't show the +cash paid when the men are discharged at the Shipping Office. + +14,416. I understand from what Mr. Robertson stated, and I think +I saw from the books themselves, that the books still show the +amount due to the man after settling his account with Mr. Leask,- +that is to say, that the system of book-keeping which was in use +before 1867 is still continued in the shop?-Yes. + +14,417. The cash is actually paid in presence of the +superintendent, but no settlement takes place in the books +until afterwards?-Yes. + +14,418. Has your system been changed since 1867?-Our system +has not been changed; only, so far as I know, the practice of +paying the whole balance to a seaman was not put in force until +1871. We had then ceased to be agents. + +14,419. Had you ceased to be agents in 1871?-Yes. + +14,420. In what way was the system carried on until 1871?-Every +man on being landed was furnished with an account of wages, +according to the Board of Trade regulations; and our practice, +when furnishing that to a man, was to read over his account from +the ledger, and tell him what balance he had to get, according to +our account; and he was paid accordingly at the Shipping Office. +When he appeared at the Shipping Office, the shipping master, or +any one acting for him, asked the man if he had got his account of +wages from the agent. He said 'Yes.' 'Are you satisfied with your +account?' 'Yes;' and then I paid the amount of the balance. The +shipping master did not see that what I had paid was the exact sum +entered in the account of wages. + +14,421. Then, in point of fact, what you paid was the sum actually +due to the man in his private account with you?-Yes; that is to +say, we squared accounts at the Shipping Office. + +14,422. Was the shipping master aware that the cash actually +passing was not the sum stated in the account of wages?-I am +not aware of that. It was only last year that I understand the real +sum paid was entered in the release which a man subscribed, and +of course the shipping master had then to be satisfied that the +actual sum was paid. + +14,423 Was there a change in the form of the release then?-Yes, +to that extent. + +14,424. I understand the release is signed by the seamen, and +the sum paid to each man is entered in the column opposite his +name?-Yes. + +14,425. That column either did not exist or was not filled up +previous to 1871?-Yes. There was no column of that kind then. + +14,426. Was that the reason why, in 1871, the superintendent +began to look into the matter more closely, and to require that he +should be satisfied that the actual sum named in the regulation +account of wages was handed to the seamen?-Yes. + +14,427. Under the present system, the superintendent has to give a +certificate to that effect upon the release?-I suppose so. + +14,428. Mr. Robertson stated that, in his experience, no allotment +notes were ever taken in the names of the agents?-Yes; and that +is another thing with regard to which I differ from him. That has +been done in my own experience. Several young men, who had no +wives to receive their allotment notes, asked at the Shipping +Office if they could be made payable in my own name and the +shipping master said it was quite legitimate. I think that occurred +first in 1867. + +14,429. Have you had such allotment notes in your own name +since?-They were signed in that way unasked by me. I never +knew about it until the men stated it in my presence. + +14,430. The object of signing the allotment notes in that way was +to enable you to draw their wages, or rather to retain their wages in +security for your advances to them?-It had that effect. + +14,431. In what year did you cease to act for Mr. Leask?-I left +him in the end of 1865. + +14,432. Had any allotment notes been taken before then in the +agent's name?-Not to my knowledge. + +14,433. While you in his employment, was it the practice to give +the sailors no allotment notes at all?-Yes. I am not aware, from +my own experience, that allotment notes were granted previous to +1867. + +14,434. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr. +Robertson's evidence?-Not having heard the whole of his +evidence, I cannot say; but these are the only points on which I +differ from him, so far as I heard what he stated. + +14,435. You have handed me a memorandum with regard to the +voyage of the s.s. 'Narwhal' of Dundee, in the seal and whale +fishing of 1866, showing the earnings of the Shetland portion of +the crew, the amount in cash paid to each man, and the time of +settlement?-Yes. + +14,436. Was that memorandum made for the owners?-No. I have +made it up from my books for the purposes of this examination. + +14,437. That statement shows that thirty-one men were engaged +through you for that vessel in that year, that their earnings +amounted to £411, 15. 8d., and the amount paid in cash to £321, +19s. 10d. You also state the average earnings to be £13, 5s. 8d.; +the average cash £10, 7s. 9d., and the average goods £2, 17s. +11d.?-Yes. + +14,438. You also state that seven of the men were discharged on +the same day when they left the vessel and that the others were +discharged afterwards at different times, varying from seven days +up till two, two and a half, seven and a half, and eight and a half +months after they left the vessel?-Yes. + +14,439. Was the average amount of cash received by the men +of the 'Narwhal,' on that voyage, below or above, the average +received by men in other ships, in your experience?-I have not +looked particularly at the other books. That was not a very +successful voyage, otherwise the goods might have been a little +more, and the cash would have been more as well. + +14,440. You have also produced a similar memorandum with +regard to the s.s. 'Arctic,' in 1867, after the new regulations were +introduced, which shows that the proportion in goods and money +had not altered very much?-Yes. + +14,441. Do you think it has altered since 1867?-I don't think so. + +14,442. I thought you said that since 1867 you had greatly limited +your advances to the men?-I consider the amount advanced, even +in 1867, to be limited. + +14,443. The amount of goods advanced in 1866 was £2, 17s. +11d. out of £13, 5s. 8d. of average earnings in the case of the +'Narwhal,' and in 1867, in the case of the 'Arctic,' it was £2, 13s. +1d. out of £11, 15s. 3d. of average earnings: that was very nearly +the same proportion?-Yes. + +14,444. Can you say that the amount of cash paid now is much +greater than it was as shown in this return?-No; of course much +will depend upon the success of the voyage, but I don't think there +would be a great difference in the proportion. + +14,445. Then is this memorandum intended to show that as much +cash was paid before 1867 as you pay now?-I just took these two +ships for the two respective years. I had no such object in view as +you suggest. + +14,446. Do you think that, in point of fact, as much cash was paid +before 1867 as is paid now?-As I said before, it depends very +much on the success of the voyage. + +14,447. But you have had a great deal of experience, and, taking +an average successful voyage, would the payment of cash be as +great before 1867 as it has been since?-The regulations of the +Board of Trade won't interfere with that to any great extent, but +the agents have not been engaging so many young hands since. + +14,448. Is it your experience, as well as Mr. Robertson's, that +green hands are not employed now to the same extent as they +were formerly?-Yes; that must be the experience of every one. + +14,449. What is the total cost of a green hand's outfit?-About £7. + +14,450. The average amount spent on outfit by a man who has +been at the whaling before must, I suppose, be [Page 362] +considerably less?-A man who has been there for many years +before may be keeping up his outfit. + +14,451. May he require to spend £3 or £4 when he goes out +again?-He may not require to spend one half of that. + +14,452. And besides that he obtains a higher wage?-Yes. + +14,453. Are you in the habit of insuring your men's outfits?-Yes. + +14,454. What is the rate of insurance?-I think it is from 5 to 6 +guineas per cent. I may mention that the Greenland trade was +always considered to be a great nursery for seamen. A great +many of our naval reserve men now, the majority of whom +could compare with similar class in any part of Great Britain, +commenced their career in the Greenland trade; but now these +stringent Board of Trade regulations have utterly prevented, or +nearly so, agents from taking them. + +14,455. Is that because it has lessened the agents' power over the +men?-No, it is because the men can only engage for one voyage; +while almost the whole of the ships go to the seal fishing first, and +come home, and then go back to Davis Straits. + +14,456. Do the men ever engage for both voyages at once?-They +have done so for the last year or two but it is not legal. + +14,457. But they did it formerly?-Yes. + +14,458. And they have resumed the practice within the last year or +two?-Within the last two or three years the young hands have +come to know that they cannot be forced to go both voyages, but +that if they choose to leave at the end of the first voyage they do +so. Of course an agent, when giving him an outfit for the sealing +voyage, knew that nearly the same outfit would do for the whaling; +but he cannot run the risk of giving that outfit upon one voyage +merely, and therefore he cannot engage young hands. + +14,459. I thought you said they had begun within the last year or +two again to engage them for both voyages?-No. I say they have +given it up within the last few years, because the young hands +came to know that they could not be compelled to go both voyages +if they chose to leave at the end of the sealing voyage. + +14,460. Then that is another reason for ceasing to employ young +hands?-That, in my opinion, is principal reason. + +14,461. Are these young hands not anxious to get employment for +both voyages?-If they have to rough it very severely in the first +voyage perhaps they get cured of going, and wish to stay at home. + +14,462. But the abstracts you have produced show that the +amounts of goods in 1866 and 1867 were very much in the +same proportion; so that that is not consistent with the general +proposition you stated, that the agents have restricted their credits +to the men very much since these regulations were enforced?-As +I said before, I made up these two lists in this way, that one was +for the last year when the agents could settle without going before +the shipping master, and the other was for the following year when +they were compelled to go. + +14,463. The abstracts you have produced, if they are to be taken as +representative cases, rather show that the system introduced in +1867 made no difference at all?-I merely took these two years as +specimens of what was done before and after the new system was +introduced. I can prepare statements for other years if you think it +necessary. + +14,464. Perhaps the explanation may be that the 'Narwhal' was the +case in which the greatest amount of cash was paid before 1867, in +your experience?-I did not fix upon the ships in that way. I +merely took them for the reason I have stated. The first man's +account in that list shows that of £28, 11s. 3d. which he had to +receive, he got £27, 15s. in cash. What I meant to show by that +was, that the agent had no control over the man's cash, but that +when he asked it he got it. + +14,465. How many ships had you in 1866?-Two; the 'Narwhal' +and the 'Erik.' + +14,466. Did the men in the 'Erik' receive as large a proportion of +cash as those in the 'Narwhal'?-I could not say positively unless +I had the book, but I think they could not have had so much. + +14,467. Would they have a good deal less?-They would have +considerably less, because the vessel returned clean. The voyage +was utterly unsuccessful. + +14,468. Then, taking your experience while in Mr. Leask's +employment before 1866, should you say that the men sailing in +the ships for which he was agent generally received as much cash +as the men of the 'Narwhal' in 1866?-I think on an average they +would; but of course that would be in pretty successful years. + +14,469. I am not speaking about the actual amount of cash +which they would receive, and whether it was larger or smaller, +but would they receive the same proportion of cash and of goods +as is shown by your memorandum?-Scarcely. + +14,470. Would the proportion be considerably less?-I am hardly +prepared to say. + +14,471. Are you prepared to say that since 1867 the men in the +ships under your charge have got the same proportions of cash as +against goods as are stated in the memorandum with regard to the +'Arctic'?-Nearly. I shall furnish a statement for a year or two in +order to show how the matter stood then.* + +14,472. How many vessels had you in 1871?-I had none in 1871. +In 1870 I had two-the 'Narwhal' and the 'Arctic.' + +14,473. Have you a separate book for each year?-I have for each +ship. I should wish to make a remark with regard to the report of +the Accountant of the Board of Trade. Enough, perhaps too much, +has already been said on that subject, but I think his report is +couched in rather exaggerated terms, and, to a cursory reader, is +calculated to convey a very erroneous impression. To a careful +reader it is very different, I must acknowledge, but with a cursory +reader it might have that effect. + +14,474. Then you don't go so far as Mr. Robertson has gone, and +say that the statements in it are utterly erroneous?-No, I cannot +do that. + +14,475. You merely object to the general impression which it +conveys?-Yes; but I decidedly object to that. I would also say +that in my experience, which is nearly as long as that of any one in +the agency I never knew of an agent intentionally putting off time +in settling with the men. When I was in Mr. Leask's employment, +before the passing of the Merchant Shipping Act, when the men +were landed and got what cash and goods they wanted, they would +generally ask at what time they would be settled with, and we +would tell them that in the course of a month, by which time we +got the returns ready-that is, the [Page 363] ship's accounts for +wages and oil-money-we would settle with them at any time. +That was the universal practice. + +14,476. Formerly you did not settle with the men until you had got +funds put into your hands by the owners-No; and we generally +got these in the course of four weeks. + +14,477. Do you know of any case in which a settlement was +refused on the ground that you had not received funds from the +owners?-No; I do not recollect of any such case. + +14,478. Is there any foundation for this statement in Mr. +Hamilton's report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any +other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run +the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular +agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his +contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than +there are berths, he would probably never get any employment +again.' Has a man had any difficulty in getting employment +because he had carried his custom away from a particular agent?- +I don't think so. If there was such a case, I think it must have +been only one. + +14,479. Was there one case?-I say I think it could only be one +case. + +14,480. But do you know of any one case?-Having left Mr. +Leask's business, I consider it treading on rather delicate ground +to speak about that; and I would not like to be pressed. Of course +I must always remember in giving my evidence that I am on oath, +but I would not like to be considered as equivocating. + +14,481. I think you are giving very candid evidence; but you ought +to tell if there is any foundation for the statement that the men had +been refused employment because they had carried their custom +elsewhere?-I am only aware of one solitary case. + +14,482. Was that because the man had gone away and got an outfit +or supplies elsewhere?-I am not aware of a man being denied a +berth because he had taken an outfit elsewhere. I think the report +of the Accountant is incorrect in that respect, because I have +known no case in which a man has been refused a berth because +he had taken his outfit elsewhere. + +14,483. What was the one case to which you referred just now?-I +cannot condescend upon the particulars which led to it specially; +but there was one case of man being engaged, or partly engaged. +He had been with the same master for some years before, but some +little difference arose, and the man was prevented from going the +voyage, and did not go to it. I cannot say what was the particular +cause for that. + +14,484. What was the name of the man?-Thomas Manson, +Bressay. That has been the only case of that kind, in my +experience of the Greenland trade. + +14,485. The practice in engaging seamen, I understand, is that the +men go to the agents and intimate their desire to be employed for +the voyage?-Yes. + +14,486. The agent has not the power of making legal engagement +with the men, but the engagement is finally made by the +captain?-Yes. + +14,487. Do you go on board the vessel with the men for the +purpose of having them engaged, or is the engagement generally +made by the captain on shore?-There have been a few cases of +engaging men on board ship, but very few. + +14,488. But it is done at a meeting between the captain, the agent, +and the men?-Yes. + +14,489. I suppose the agent, where there are a number of men, has +some voice with regard to their selection?-Unquestionably. + +14,490. Are you aware whether any effort has been made by +agents, either yourself or others, to secure engagements for the +men who had larger accounts or larger debts in your books?-Of +course there have been a few cases where an engagement has been +got for a man who was in debt. + +14,491. Do you know of any case where the captain has objected, +or complained of the efforts made by the agent to get such men +engaged?-No, I don't recollect of any such case. + +14,492. Did you know a Captain M'Lennan who came here for +men?-Yes. + +14,493. Did he make any objection of that kind on any +occasion?-No. + +14,494. Did he not complain of it being done?-Not to my +knowledge. I never heard any such complaint, either from him +or from the owner on his behalf. + +14,495. Were you at one time agent for a vessel of which he was +master?-Yes, in 1870. He had his men sent south to him in the +previous year. We had him for two years. + +14,496. Were you not in business at all in 1871?-Not as shipping +agents. + +14,497. Had you applied to have the agency for Captain +M'Lennan's ship in 1871, before you gave up the business?- +No; we had her from 1866 till 1871, when we gave her up +voluntarily. + +14,498. Was no complaint made at all that you had endeavoured to +engage men who were in your debt or who were running accounts +with you?-No. + +14,499. In your business, who was in the habit of settling with the +men at the Custom House? was it yourself or a clerk?-It was +invariably myself. In fact it was the same individual who had to +appear every time. The shipping master would not allow one +person to come now, and another person to come then. + +14,500. You have already stated that, so long as you were engaged +in the trade, the amount of your account was deducted, and only +the balance was handed over to the man in presence of the +shipping master?-Yes. + +14,501. So that, in point of fact, your account was settled in the +Custom House just as it was before the Board of Trade regulations, +with this exception, that there was no writing or reading over of +the accounts at that place?-Yes. Before 1867 it was done in our +own office. I may mention that in several cases, of which this +[showing an account of wages] is a specimen, the men actually got +what they had to get according to the Board of Trade regulations. +In that case the sum which the man had to get was £5, 16s. 3d. + +14,502. Did he get the whole amount because he had no account at +all?-He had an account, but he got this sum in full because his +wife had not drawn all his allotments. + +14,503. Were the allotments deducted in that account?-Yes, that +was invariably done. + +14,504. Did you draw the allotments for your account?-We drew +them regularly from the owners. + +14,505. So that this man got his balance due upon the account of +wages, because his allotments had been applied to the account due +to you?-Yes. I may mention that his account was very trifling,- +in fact was next to nothing; and in addition to that he had a +balance to get, when he came down to the office, of £3 odds due +upon his allotments. + +14,506. Have you any vessels engaged in the Faroe trade?-No; +we are in no way connected with that fishing. + +14,507. Have you any share as owner in any of the vessels for +which you have acted as agent?-No; and as we are entirely out +of that trade just now, have no reason for making the statements I +have done, except merely to give it correct account of the way in +which the business has been conducted. The statement I have +made is altogether an unprejudiced one. + +14,508. But you think the 21/2 per cent. allowed to you was a very +inadequate remuneration?-Since the recent Board of Trade +regulations were issued, it was because we had often to throw our +own business aside to attend to the men when they came to settle. + +*Mr. Tulloch afterwards furnished the following statement:- +Men on s.s. 'Arctic,' of Dundee, voyage to seal and whale fishing +in 1867. +Amount of wages and oil-money, £411 14 6 +Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of +crew-35 men, 318 14 6 +Amount of goods sold, £93 0 0 + +Average earnings, £11 15 3 + ,, cash, 9 2 1 + ,, goods, 2 13 1 + +Men on s.s. 'Narwhal's' voyage to seal and whale fishing +in 1869-M'Lennan, master. +Amount of wages and oil-money, etc.,. £303 15 2 +Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of +crew-19 men, 255 11 6 +Amount of goods sold, £48 3 8 + +Average earnings, £15 19 9 + ,, cash, 13 9 0 + ,, goods, 2 10 9 + +Men on s.s. 'Erik,' of London, voyage to seal fishing +in 1869-Robert Jones, master. +Amount of wages and oil-money, etc., £365 10 10 +Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of +crew-25 men, 326 4 4 +Amount of goods sold, 39 6 6 + Average earnings, £14 12 5 + ,, cash, 13 1 0 + ,, goods, 1 11 5 + + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GEORGE REID TAIT, examined. + +14,509. You were for a number of years engaged as an agent in +Lerwick for whaling vessels?-I was. + +14,510. How many ships had you generally?-I have had as high +as eighteen in one year. + +[Page 364] + +14,511. For these, I suppose, you would sometimes employ 100 or +200 men?-Fully that; perhaps about 250 men. + +14,512. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Tulloch?-I have. + +14,513. Are there any points on which you differ from him?-Yes. +So far as my own experience is concerned, since the issuing of the +Board of Trade regulations in 1867 we have invariably settled with +our men at the Shipping Office without deducting our own account + +14,514. Were these settlements conducted by yourself, or by one +of your clerks?-Principally by one of my clerks; but at times, +when he was absent, I generally settled with the men myself. + +14,515. Was that clerk Mr. Leisk, who is now your successor in +business?-Yes. + +14,516. Is the statement correct that these settlements were +generally protracted for months, and were only made at intervals +as the men came up?-I don't think it is generally correct. When a +vessel arrived at Lerwick, the men were generally settled with at +once. + +14,517. Even before 1867?-Even before 1867. I don't think there +is any difference with regard to the dates of settlement. + +14,518. Then what effect have the regulations had?-I don't think +they have had very much effect, so far as my own experience goes. + +14,519. Have they had the effect of reducing the amount of debit +against the men in the agents' books?-I don't think so. + +14,520. You have not found it necessary in consequence to restrict +your advances to the men?-I have not. I just give them much +about the same as formerly + +14,521. Have you formed any idea from your experience as to +what proportion of a man's earnings in an average voyage may be +exhausted by his supplies in goods?-I have taken a note of it for +the last three years. In some cases it has been as high as 20 per +cent.; but where the vessels were successful, the proportion of +goods was not by any means so great, compared with the amount +of oil-money and wages. In that case it would sometimes be +reduced to 5 per cent. In the case of the 'Arctic,' Dundee, last +year, £995, 6s. 8d. was paid at the Shipping Office to 29 men, and +they afterwards returned and paid me £48, 2s. 5d. for goods That +was a very successful year, and the 'Arctic' was particularly +fortunate. I may explain that out of the twenty-nine men there +were only eight taken on the second voyage The vessel made two +voyages, and that return is exclusive of the eight men who went +with her the second time. + +14,522. So that the advances were really made for the sealing +voyage only?-Yes, really for the sealing voyage. + +14,523. And I suppose it was from the sealing voyage that the +greater part of the returns were made?-No. I think the eight +men grossed pretty nearly as much from the second voyage. + +14,524. But that was an extraordinary case altogether, was it +not?-Our vessels were all fortunate last year, on the whole. + +14,525. However, you say that in some cases the amount of goods +has been as much as 20 per cent. of the whole earnings?-I think +so; but these were exceptional cases. + +14,526. After the new regulations were issued, did the men +universally come down and settle their accounts as soon as they +received their cash at the Custom House?-As a rule, they did. + +14,527. Are they expected to do so?-A great number of the men +who are customers of my own are always very honourable in +settling their accounts. + +14,528. But is it understood when you are paying them the money +that they are to do so?-Yes. + +14,529. Is there an understanding expressed at the time when they +are getting the advance, that they are to settle as soon as they +receive their wages?-We have never expressed it in words, but I +should fancy that there is such an understanding. + +14,530. Have your accounts since 1867 been kept in the same way +as they were before?-In the same way. + +14,531. That is to say, they show the receipt by the seaman of the +balance due after deducting his account, and don't show the actual +sum received by him at the Custom House?-We generally credit +the men with the full amount of wages, oil-money, and seal-money +payable to them; then there are the advances prior to the voyage; +then there is the sum paid at the Shipping Office;-the full amount +is entered against the men; and then the sum returned. + +14,532. Do you make a separate entry of that so as to show what +has been actually paid?-Yes. + +14,533. Have you known any case of a man declining to come +down from the Shipping Office to pay his account at the time?- +There have been two or three very rare cases. + +14,534. What happened when such cases occurred?-The men are +still due the amount. That was all that happened. + +14,535. Did you make any effort to get them an engagement in the +following year?-No; I have never seen them since. I think two of +them are south. + +14,536. Have you seen any evidence on the part of the men in +other cases of an unwillingness to come down?-No. I have never +seen any evidence of that at all. We leave the men at the Custom +House after we pay them, and they always turn up afterwards and +pay us. + +14,537. Do you ever accompany them down from the Shipping +Office?-We never have to do such a thing. It may be a day or +so before they come, but they always pay very honourably. + +14,538. Do you generally tell them at the Custom House that they +are to come down to the office?-No. I do not recollect ever once +telling them that, or giving them the least hint on the subject. I +trust to their honour, and they always come forward. I may +remark, that masters of vessels coming home from the sealing are +very anxious to proceed with all despatch to Dundee or Peterhead, +and it is sometimes difficult to make the harbour here. It would be +an exceedingly annoying thing to force shipmasters to spend some +days perhaps in making Lerwick harbour; so that they are very +anxious in passing Shetland, to land their crews at any of the +islands; but in that case the expenses of the crew are invariably +paid to Lerwick, and it may be a fortnight perhaps before we see +the men. Generally speaking, however, they are in town in less +than eight days. + +14,539. Have you known any cases in which your account for +goods furnished was entered in the captain's store-book?-I have +known cases of that some years ago-perhaps about three years +ago, I should fancy; but am not certain. + +14,540. Was that done after the new system was introduced?- +There was a special order of the Board of Trade issued afterwards, +preventing us from doing so. It was done before that time. + +14,541. Did that order prohibit such entries being made in the +captain's store-book?-Yes, with the exception of the captain's +own account. + +14,542. Such entries were made, I presume, to entitle you to +deduct the amount of your account at the settlement before the +superintendent?-Yes. + +14,543. Do you think the remuneration of 2 1/2 per cent. is +sufficient for the trouble that an agent has in obtaining +engagements for the men and settling with them?-That +depends entirely upon the success of the vessel. Some +vessels, such as the 'Arctic' in the voyage I have mentioned, +pay well enough; but if the vessel is unfortunate, the +remuneration is scarcely sufficient. + +14,544. But, taking the vessels overhead, is it sufficient?-I don't +think it is, considering the time and trouble that are necessary. + +14,545. Might not the rate of remuneration be raised by agreement +with the owners?-They have refused to increase it. There was an +application to that effect made some years ago, and I think they +refused to entertain it. + +14,546. Then I fancy the agent's principal inducement to continue +in the business is that he has an opportunity [Page 365] of +supplying the men with goods?-I don't think there are many +agents inclined to continue the business now. + +14,547. You have given it up yourself?-Yes. + +14,548. But your successors are to continue it?-Yes. I think for a +year they are to continue it. + +14,549. You are not one of the gentlemen who have come +voluntarily forward for the purpose of contradicting the official +report of Mr. Hamilton?-No; but, so far as my own experience +is concerned, I think Mr. Hamilton's report was very much +exaggerated. In fact it was not correct, because all our men +invariably got paid in full at the Shipping Office, without any +deductions, since 1867. From the report, it would appear that the +agent deducted his own account, but that was never done by me. + +14,550. But if you put your account into the captain's store-book, +that was getting deduction of it?-There was a special clause in +the ship's articles, entitling us to do that. During the last three +years that has been prohibited, so far as the Shetland men's +accounts were concerned, but not in the Peterhead ships' articles. +I think the clause still holds good with regard to Peterhead crews. + +14,551. In your business, were you in the practice of taking out the +allotments of wages in your own name?-No, not the allotments. + +14,552. Did you give any allotment notes at all?-Yes, since 1867. + +14,553. Did you do so in all cases?-No. I have had allotment +notes, in a few exceptional cases, made out in my own name, when +the men desired that. They volunteered it at the Shipping Office +in a few cases; but the great bulk of them were made out in their +wives' names and, where they were young men, in the name of +their mothers. + +14,554. Were there many cases in which no allotment notes were +taken at all?-Yes. I think last year we had one crew who had no +allotment notes at all; and before 1867 I think no allotment notes +were given. + +14,555. Since 1867, has it been a common thing for men not to +take allotment notes at all?-It is common thing for the men to +take them if the voyage is long; but if it is short, the captain does +not give allotment notes, because the voyage would be ended +before the first note was due. + +14,556. Have you known any case in which agents have +endeavoured to secure engagements for men who were due +them money, or who were running accounts with them, in +preference to other men who were not in that position?-I +never knew any such case, although I have heard it often +talked about. + +14,557. Have you heard the captains complaining that the agents +wanted them to take men who were indebted to them, rather +than the best men who were not in debt?-I have heard Captain +M'Lennan say so. I was not his agent at all, but I heard him make +such a complaint in our place last year. I did not know anything as +to the truth of it. + +14,558. Were you acquainted with the system of exchanging lists +which Mr. Tulloch spoke of?-Yes; but I have seen none from +anybody for the last five or six years, nor have I handed any within +that time. + +14,559. What was the purpose of these lists?-It was simply for +the purpose, if possible, of procuring payment of the balance due, +or of ascertaining where the man was employed. The list gave us +a sort of idea where he had been in the previous season. + +14,560. Was it a list of all the men who were in your debt, and +who had not engaged with you, that you handed to the other +agents?-It was generally a list of about half a dozen men, +whether they engaged or not. It depended upon whether they +were customers. + +14,561. But if a man engaged with you, it was quite unnecessary +for you to hand his name in a list to any other agent?-Yes; it was +quite unnecessary then. + +14,562. Therefore the list must have contained the names of men +who had not engaged with you?-Yes. + +14,563. At what period were these lists made out?-About the +spring, or some time during the season, prior to the vessels +returning from the Arctic regions. + +14,564. Have you ever handed lists of that kind to Mr. Leask or to +any of his people?-Yes, when Mr. Tulloch was a clerk to him, +but never since the regulations of the Board of Trade were issued. + +14,565. Have you known any case of a man being paid his wages +before the superintendent, and leaving to hand back a large +proportion of them to the agent in settlement of his account?- +Yes. If he was an honest man, he would come down and settle his +account, whatever it was. + +14,566. May it have happened in many cases that he had to hand +back the whole or a considerable portion of his earnings in that +way?-Yes; in the case of a young lad whose earnings were small, +his account might amount to the whole. + +14,567. Your books, I have no doubt, would show many cases of +that kind?-Yes, many cases. + +14,568. Did you cease to engage young hands to the same extent +as formerly, in consequence of the regulations of the Board of +Trade?-Yes. That is the sole reason why so few young hands are +engaged now. + + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, sen. recalled. + +14,569. Have you examined your books for January 1868?-Yes. + +14,570. Did you find any entry there of a sale of meal to Thomas +Hutchison, Skerries, or to his father?-No; there is no entry of a +sale of meal in that month. + +14,571. Did you find the price at which your meal was being sold +in the following month?-Yes. + +14,572. You have no entries to show the price during January?-I +cannot find any. + +14,573. At what price was it being sold in February 1868?-At +52s. That is the price I charged; but I find the price was rising +that year, because in the following month again it was charged 1s. +higher; and it is quite possible that I would sell a sack at 50s. in +January. + +14,574. Is it possible you may have sold a sack of meal without it +being entered in your books at all?-Yes; we frequently do that. If +the cash is paid down we don't make any entry of it. + +14,575. The price of 52s. in February was the credit price?-Yes. + +14,576. So that, if a man were buying it over the counter, he would +probably get it 1s. cheaper, paying for it at the time?-Yes. We +usually give it 1s. cheaper when paid for at the time, than when we +give two or three months' credit. + +14,577. Do you do an extensive business in meal?-Yes. + +14,578. Is there much difference in the price of the meal sold in +Shetland, according to the quality of it?-There is a considerable +difference in the prices of flour. + +14,579. But is the meal generally about the same quality?-Much +about the same. + +14,580. Is there a difference between south-country meal and +Orkney meal and Shetland meal?-There is no Shetland meal +sold. We never get any to buy; at least very little. + +14,581. I have seen one or two entries of Shetland meal in country +places: would it be sold much lower than south-country meal?- +Yes, very much lower. + +14,582. But it is not an ordinary article of commerce in the +country?-No. There are very few who deal in it. + +14,583. In comparing the books of different merchants selling +meal throughout the country, would it, in your opinion, be fair to +assume that a merchant in a country district was selling the same +quality of meal that you sell in Lerwick?-Yes. I think they would +be selling the same quality. There may be different qualities of +meal, but I think they all keep the same qualities. For instance we +keep three kinds of flour. + +14,584. That is in flour, but in meal is it usual in Shetland to keep +more than one quality?-I think not. + +[Page 366] + +14,585. You keep only one quality of meal?-Yes. + +14,586. And you are inclined to believe that merchants in other +parts of Shetland will generally be selling the same quality?-I +think so. Of course it must be a little dearer in the country, but I +have heard of prices being charged, at which I was a little +surprised. + +14,587. Did you at one time give a note of the prices of meal to a +man, Henry Gilbertson?-I was inquiring at my clerk about that, +and I found that he did it. Of course he would give the prices +which he knew, and which he would find in my book. I may +mention that the prices of meal differ very much in one year. + +14,588. But probably not within one month, unless there is a +sudden rise?-No; not unless there is a sudden rise or a sudden +fall. I generally consider that we should charge as little for meal +as we can, so that the poor people may get it at as low a price as +possible; and we take a less profit on it than on other goods. + + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN LEISK, examined. + +14,589. You are a partner of the firm of Leisk & Sandison, +merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick?-I am. + +14,590. I understand you were previously in the employment of +Mr. George Reid Tait, who has now retired from business?-Yes; +I had been in his employment since 1862. + +14,591. Were you in any other business of the same kind +before?-No; I entered business then for the first time. + +14,592. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. +Tait?-Yes. + +14,593. Do you agree generally with him in the account he has +given of the way in which seamen have been discharged and had +their wages paid?-Yes. I think it was generally correct. + +14,594. Have you been in the habit of going up and paying wages +at the Custom House?-I generally went with the men there. + +14,595. Is it the custom now to hand them over their wages in +cash, deducting only the sums which they have got for the +month's advance, the allotment money, and the captain's account +for stores?-During the last year, 1871, we only deducted the +captain's stores and the first month's advance. + +14,596. Were there no allotments?-The men had allotments but +we did not deduct them. We were entitled to do so; but I found it +simpler not to deduct them, and trust to the men refunding. + +14,597. Then the allotments were not entered in the accounts of +wages at all?-No. + +14,598. Why did you not enter an allotment which the man had +really drawn?-Our reason for not doing so was that in some +cases they had not received the allotment in full, and they did +not understand the accounts very well. In fact we found they +understood them much better when they saw the full amount of +their wages and were told the amount of advances. It was less +trouble to us, and we got on better with the men by doing so. + +14,599. Did you not include the allotment in the settlement with +the men at the Custom House because it was involved in their +accounting with you?-Yes; it became involved with that. + +14,600. Had the allotment notes in 1871 been taken in name of the +agent?-Very few of them. Perhaps in one or two cases they were, +but not more. + +14,601. Had they generally been left in his hands?-Yes, +generally. + +14,602. When not taken in his name, but left in his hands, in +whose name were they made out?-Generally in name of their +wives or some of their relations. + +14,603. Had you found that the wives had come to get +advances?-Yes, generally they had. + +14,604. But not to the full extent of the allotment money?- +Sometimes, and in other cases they did not. In Lerwick they +always got supplies to the full extent, but in the country they +did not. + +14,605. In what way did they get supplies?-Chiefly in money. + +14,606. But in the country they did not take money to the full +extent of the allotment note?-Sometimes they did. In fact the +allotments were generally paid in cash. + +14,607. Was it usual for the wives only to take it as they wanted it, +and not to draw the full amount of allotment money due at any one +time?-They generally had it divided in four; and they came for it +weekly, instead of monthly-the allotment note being payable +monthly. + +14,608. Was it in consequence of that practice of drawing upon the +allotment money that you found it more convenient not to put it +into the account of wages?-Yes. + +14,609. If it had been drawn at monthly intervals the account +would have been simpler?-It would. + +14,610. And it might have been entered in the account of wages +without any trouble?-Yes. + +14,611. Why was it not paid over to the women monthly?-They +generally wanted money before it was due. It is only due two +months after the vessel has left; and they required money before +that time and generally got it. + +14,612. When the two months had expired, did you not settle +accounts with them, so as to clear off all that was due?-In some +cases we did. When they were drawing upon us regularly we did +so, but we did not make a practice of doing so. + +14,613. I suppose you were supplying them with goods at the time +as they wanted them?-If they wanted goods we supplied them, +but we never asked them to take them. + +14,614. Neither did you ask them to take the full amount of their +allotment money when it was due?-No. + +14,615. Have you since 1862 been in the habit of settling the +accounts with seamen engaged in the whaling trade?-Only +since the new regulations in 1867. + +14,616. Since then has it generally been you who have gone up to +the Custom House for Mr. Tait?-Yes, almost invariably, except +when I was away. + +14,617. Since 1867 has the deduction for your account ever been +made in settling at the Custom House-Never since 1868. There +was an order issued by the Board of Trade in 1867, but it was not +very complete, and there were fuller regulations issued in 1868. + +14,618. But the system was altered in 1867?-Yes. There was +nothing to prevent us from including supplies for the men in the +captain's store-book previous to 1868; but the new regulations +prevented that, and we never did it afterwards. + +14,619. Then it was only in 1867 that any entries were made in the +captain's store-book?-Yes, by us. There was a clause about that +in the regulations of 1868 which was not in the regulations of +1867. + +14,620. Have you ever read over to the men the account of their +transactions with you before going up to settle at the Custom +House?-We generally read it over when they come to pay it. + +14,621. Is it ever done before they go to the Custom House?-If +they wish it, it is done but we never volunteer to do it. + +14,622. Has there been any case since 1868 in which settlement +of your account has been made or proposed at the Custom +House?-I don't remember one. I know it was never allowed by +the superintendent. He always counted the money, in every case +since 1868. + +14,623. Do you know how it was done in the case of other +agents?-I don't know. + +14,624. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Tulloch to the effect that +up to 1870 he had only paid the cash balance due to the man after +deduction of his account, and that the superintendent had not taken +care to see that the whole amount was paid, except the legal [Page +367] deductions?-Yes. I understood that that had been allowed +in Mr. Tulloch's case, but it was not allowed in ours. + +14,625. Had you been expressly debarred from doing so by the +superintendent?-Yes. + +14,626. Was that done on any occasion when you were about to +settle your own account there?-No. We never tried that; but he +has repeatedly counted the money, perhaps not every man's, but +that of two or three, to see that it was complete. + +14,627. Has that been done since 1868?-Yes, always since 1868. + +14,628. Do the men universally come down to your shop to settle +their accounts after receiving the money?-Yes, I think invariably. +I only remember one case in which a man failed to do so. Perhaps +there has been one case more, but I don't think it. + +14,629. Who was the man whose case you remember?-John +Henderson, Yell. + +14,630. Have you had occasion to remind the men that they ought +to come down and pay their accounts?-No; we do not remind +them of it, but we always explain the account of wages as we hand +it to each man. + +14,631. Is that explanation made in the Custom House?-No; we +explain it previously. The man is supposed to be satisfied with it +before he goes to the Custom House. + +14,632. When making that explanation, do you also tell them that +they are bound to come and pay their account for furnishings to +you?-We do not tell them so. We tell them that our account is +not included in the account of wages, and has to be paid simply +when they get their money. + +14,633. And the men have always come down without being told, +and have paid their accounts at your shop?-Yes. They generally +leave the Shipping Office one by one as they are paid, and come +down to the shop, sometimes straight, and sometimes they do not +appear for a long time afterwards. We never look after them, but +just trust to their coming. + +14,634. I suppose the amount of your account for outfit and +furnishings sometimes exceeds the amount of wages and +oil-money due; at least in the case of young hands?-In the case +of young hands only; and as rule, in their case it does so. It is a +very exceptional thing in the case of older hands. The young +hands have less clothes to start with, and they require larger +outfit, and their wages are smaller. + +14,635. Do young hands invariably come back to you in the second +year to get an engagement?-Not invariably. + +14,636. What do they do in that case?-I don't know what +becomes of them. Perhaps they go to some other fishing, or +engage with some other agent. + +14,637. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining his +outfit from another shop than that of the agent by whom he has +been engaged?-I don't know of any. + +14,638. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining what +he wanted for his second or third voyage from another shop than +that of the agent who engaged him?-No, I have not been aware of +it. If he had money to get at the end of the voyage, he possibly +bought what he wanted elsewhere. I don't know of such a case, +but it may have happened. + +14,639. Was there a correspondence between Mr. Tait and the +superintendent hereabout the system of paying seamen at the +Custom House within the last three or four years?-There was +some correspondence between them in the beginning of 1871. + +14,640. Was that after the publication of Mr. Hamilton's report?- +Yes. + +14,641. How did that correspondence originate?-I think it +originated from some document that came down for explanation +from the Board of Trade through the shipowners in Dundee. Mr. +Tait sent it up to the Shipping Office here, and asked what was +complained of in discharging the seamen. + +14,642. Did he get an answer?-The correspondence was carried +on between Mr. Tait and Mr. Gatherer. I was not concerned in it. + +14,643. Had you any interviews with Mr. Gatherer on the +subject?-Yes, one. I carried up the document to him which +had come from the Board of Trade and conveyed a message to +him from Mr. Tait asking what was complained of, as we did not +know of anything wrong. He refused to give me an explanation, +saying at first that he knew nothing about it. I insisted that there +must have been some complaint from him or from this quarter, but +he still refused to give me any explanation of it, and I got none. + +14,644. Did the correspondence follow upon that interview which +you had with him?-Yes. + +14,645. Was any explanation obtained in the correspondence?-I +am not conversant with the correspondence, and I cannot answer +that question. + +14,646. Are you engaged in any other branch of the fishing +business except the agency for the whaling vessels?-No. +With regard to the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society, I heard +Mr. Jamieson's evidence upon that point, and I would like to +add, that a man who is wrecked has the option of applying through +any agent that he may choose, and is not bound in any way to +apply through the man who has sold him his ticket. + +14,647. What is the practice in cases of that sort?-The men +generally apply through the agent nearest to them. + +14,648. Have you known any cases in which men or widows have +applied through others than the agent who sold them the ticket, in +order that they might obtain money instead of being paid in +goods?-I did not know that that was their reason, but it might +have been. + +14,649. In such cases as those to which I have referred, have they +generally asked for money?-They have generally got the money, +so far as I know. + +14,650. But you are not acquainted with any case in which that has +been assigned as the reason for applying to a different agent?- +No; I never heard it. They would likely apply to the agent they +were best acquainted with, or who lived nearest to them. There +are five agents in Lerwick, one of whom is the fishery officer, who +is not connected with trade in any way, so far as I am aware. + +14,651. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to +the time for settling with the men, we generally, as soon as we +can get their accounts ready, fix a day for them to appear at the +Shipping Office, and we settle then with as many as make their +appearance. + +14,652. You do not settle with the men on landing?-When the +men land, we fix a day for settling with them, and as many men +as appear on that day get their wages then, and the rest get them +when they call. + +14,653. But if you see the men when they land, in order to fix the +day with them, why is it that you cannot [be] there and then settle +with them?-Because we cannot get the accounts ready. We +require some time to make up the accounts of wages, and then they +have to get discharges, which take them fully as much time as the +accounts. There is a great deal of writing to be done in that; they +are all made out in duplicate. + +14,654. Do you mean that your own shop accounts have to be +made up?-No, our own shop accounts have all been made up +long before; it is only the accounts of wages that have to be made +up at that time. + +14,655. Have they to be made out in duplicate?-No; only the +discharges. + +14,656. Are not the whole crew discharged in one document?- +That is the release; but each man besides has to get a separate +discharge, and a certificate of character and ability and conduct. + +14,657. Do you ever settle accounts of wages with the men before +your own shop accounts are made out and balanced?-Never. We +always make out our shop accounts shortly after the vessel sails. + +14,658. But you may be giving supplies to the families all the time +when the vessel is away?-Yes; but it is very easy to add that. It is +always posted up, and can be added to the account at any time. I +now produce the store-book of the 'Tay' in order to show you +[Page 368] the form in which we understand it has to be kept in +order to comply with the regulations. + +14,659. Is that book kept by the captain?-Yes, We generally +furnish a book for the purpose. The captains are not very careful +about that, and we have had a great deal of annoyance with the +Shipping Office in consequence. + +14,660. Is there a separate store-book, kept in these steamers for +the Shetland men?-Yes. The entries are filled in by the captain, +and signed by him and each man; but sometimes they are not very +particular in getting them signed, and objections have been made +to receiving them at the Shipping Office in consequence. + +14,661. Who is G.R.?-That is the signature of one of the clerks in +the Shipping Office. That book will show the dates on which the +men have been paid. The vessel arrived on Sunday 14th May, and +we fixed the 17th as the day of settlement, when a few men made +their appearance. There are three days allowed by the Merchant +Shipping Act for settlement. + +14,662. Do you think that is too short a period to enable you to +make out all these accounts?-Three days are plenty of time. That +settlement was made within the three days. The vessel arrived on +the Sunday, which of course does not count, and we had Monday +and Tuesday for making out the accounts. The Monday was a mail +day, and we put them off until Tuesday. We employed ourselves +making them out on that day, and appointed the men to meet us at +the Shipping Office, at ten o'clock on the Wednesday morning, +and you will see how many men made their appearance out of a +crew of fifty men. + +14,663. How many of them did so?-I have not counted them +over, but the dates are all there when the men were settled with, +with the exception of one man, John Robertson, Yell, who has not +made his appearance yet. Mr. Tait sent him a verbal message, +requesting him to come down and get his wages, but he has not +attended to it. + +14,664. I see that one of these men was settled with on 15th +May, being the day after the vessel arrived?-That has been an +exceptional case. The man had probably been anxious to get +away, but I don't remember. + +14,665. I also see that a number of them did come forward on the +17th, or within a few days after it?-Yes. They came just when it +suited them. I think there were only about a dozen who came on +the 17th out of the fifty. + +14,666. How soon were they all cleared off, except the one man +who has not come yet?-I could not answer that question without +referring to the book, but most of them would be within a month. +There are always a few exceptional cases in every ship, of men +who either do not require the money, or who have something +which prevents them from coming. + +14,667. Had you ever got a ship cleared off so rapidly before?- +Frequently. + +14,668. But not before 1871?-Yes; in 1870 and 1869 we got +them settled with as rapidly. The settlements are never put off by +the agents, but the men may stay away as long as they like of their +own free will. + +14,669. I suppose the agent seldom continues to furnish supplies +after the men have returned from their whaling voyage?-They +don't get any supplies afterwards, as a rule. + +14,670. Is there anything more you wish to say?-There are some +parts of Mr. Hamilton's report which I think I ought to notice. + +14,671. Have you heard any part of the evidence of Mr. Robertson +or Mr. Jamieson with regard to that report?-I heard a part of +Mr. Jamieson's evidence this morning, but I did not hear Mr. +Robertson's. Mr. Hamilton says, 'Any man who carried his +custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, +would run the risk of being a marked man.' That is incorrect, so +far as my experience goes. + +14,672. Have you known any case of a man who did carry his +custom to another shop?-Yes, I have known several cases of that +kind, but I could not name them. There have been men who had +money in their possession at the time of engaging, who did not +purchase their outfit from us. + +14,673. Would there be one in 1870 of all the men engaged by +you?-I could not say; but I have known some of the men who +purchased their outfit from us for cash at the time of engaging +and who had no accounts whatever. + +14,674. Were any lists exchanged of these men?-Never, to my +knowledge. + +14,675. The only lists you know of were those which related to +men in your debt who had not paid up this debt?-Yes, and that +was only previous to 1867. + +14,676. Have there been no such lists exchanged since then?-Not +that I remember. + +14,677. Have you verbally mentioned the names of such men to +other agents, and made inquiries about them since 1867?-I don't +remember any particular case. + +14,678. May you have done so?-Yes. + +14,679. And many such inquiries have been made at you?-It is +possible. I don't remember of it being done, but I would not say +that it had. + +14,680. Does it happen in your experience that green hands have +generally to hand back the whole of their earnings to the agent?- +Green hands frequently do so, where their wages are low. + +14,681. And they may perhaps remain still in the agent's debt?- +Possibly in some cases they do, but it is the interest of the agent +now to have as few green hands as possible. + +14,682. Was that his interest before 1867?-Not so much as it is +now. Mr. Hamilton also says that it is the interest of the agent to +delay the settlement until he gets the men in debt to him again. +That is not the fact. + +14,683. Do you mean that it is not the fact that it is his interest to +do so?-It is not his interest; and it is not the fact that he does it, to +my knowledge. + +14,684. Is it not the interest of the agent to get man to take goods +from him?-It is the interest of the agent to sell goods to a man, +but not to get him into his debt. + +14,685. But if a man takes goods from the agent, is he not in the +agent's debt?-He does not leave it as debt. When a man gets his +wages, it is the interest of the agent to sell as much goods to him +as possible; but that is a cash transaction over the counter after the +settlement + +14,686. Are there many such cash transactions?-A good +many-not so many at the time of settlement; but we see the +men repeatedly after they have been paid. + +14,687. Do they come back to you and spend part of the cash they +have got?-Yes. I cannot tell whether it is the same cash or not, +but they do spend cash. We see them almost daily. + +14,688. When you have been settling in Mr. Tait's office with the +men who had been at Greenland, was it usual, when they came +down from the Custom House, to ask them if they wanted any +goods?-Sometimes we did that, and sometimes not; but we never +pressed them to take goods. + +14,689. But it was not unusual to ask them?-We might ask them +if they required anything, and sometimes they bought something +from us after settlement. + +14,690. In that case would it be added to their account at the time, +or would there just be a handing back of the cash to you for the +goods?-Just a handing back of the cash. + +14,691. Such purchases are usually made after settlement?-They +are always made after settlement, at least almost invariably; but +occasionally I have seen men purchasing goods and laying them +aside until they got their money, and then paying for them. In that +case the goods were not entered into any book, but were just put +up into a parcel and laid aside for them. + +[Page 369] + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Dr. ROBERT COWIE, examined. + +14,692. You are a medical practitioner in Lerwick?-I am. + +14,693. Are you a native of Shetland?-Yes; a native of Lerwick. + +14,694. Have you lived here almost all your life?-Yes; except +when I was south for my education. + +14,695. I presume you have had many opportunities of mixing +with all orders of people here in the course of the practice of your +profession, and also previously to some extent?-I have. + +14,696. You are acquainted with the fact that a system of barter +prevails very extensively in different parts of the islands?-Yes, +almost universally. + +14,697. And that both fish and hosiery are paid for, to a +considerable extent, in that way?-Yes. + +14,698. With regard to hosiery, has it come within your own +knowledge that knitters are paid in goods to an extent that is +unwholesome for themselves and for the community?-Yes, in +drapery goods. + +14,699. In what way has that been forced upon your attention?- +Sometimes in the discharge of my professional duties, I have +observed that there was an utter disproportion between the +clothing and the food of these knitters. I am no judge as to the +value or quality of the goods, but many of them are clothed in a +very gaudy, showy manner, and in a way quite inconsistent with +their position in life. I have reason to know at the same time that +their food is utterly insufficient. I have known knitting girls, one +might almost say, starving or very nearly, starving, when they were +at the same time very well dressed or dressed in a very showy +manner; and I would give an illustration of that. I remember one +Sunday, between one and two o'clock in the afternoon, being +called in to see a poor man, in Lerwick. He was very ill, and +evidently dying. He asked me if I could prescribe anything that +would relieve him, and I replied that I knew of no medicine that +could really do him good,-that the only thing I could recommend +was some sherry wine and beef tea. His reply was, if it came to +that, it was utterly out of the question, for he had not the means of +getting such luxuries. He told me that all the money they had in +the house was a single shilling, and that they had lived for some +days, as far as I remember, entirely upon tea and bread. A few +minutes after having that conversation with him, I saw the poor +man's daughter-who was his only daughter, so far as I am aware, +and who lived with him-going to church, dressed like a fine lady. +That struck me as being a very deplorable state of matters. Here +were a family who were on the verge of starvation, and unable to +get medical comforts for their dying parent, and yet the daughter, +who was a knitter, was I might almost say magnificently dressed. + +14,700. Is that the strongest and most striking instance of the kind +that has come under your notice?-I think it is, in that form. + +14,701. Have you seen other instances in which you were led to +believe that the state of things was similar?-Yes, very similar. +On many occasions knitters have consulted me as to their health, +complaining of certain forms of dyspepsia. I inquired as to their +food, and found it was very insufficient, while at the same time +they were well dressed, at least apparently well dressed. But I +would remark as to their dress, that I have reason to believe that +the dress which the knitting girls in Lerwick and girls of the lower +orders all over Shetland wear is not adapted to the climate. There +is too much cotton in it; it is too thin, and it is insufficient to +protect them from the inclemency of the weather. In former times +in Shetland a great deal of the clothing worn by the females was +home-made: it consisted of woollen garments, which were much +better adapted to the climate. + +14,702. Is it not the case that in the country districts the women +still make the greater part of their own clothing?-I suppose +they do; but what I intended to refer to just now was their inside +clothing. I think there is too much cotton worn now, and not +sufficient warm worsted clothing. + +14,703. Then the worsted underclothing which the Shetland +women make is entirely for the market, not for their own use?- +I fear they sell it and buy cotton underclothing instead. I believe +the disproportion, as I may term it, which exists between the food +and the clothing of these knitters is chiefly, if not entirely, due to +the system of truck by which they are paid. + +14,704. Do you refer to the difficulty which they have in getting +money for their work?-Yes; and to the fact that they get goods, +chiefly drapery goods, for it. + +14,705. Do you think that induces them to take larger quantity of +dress than they really need?-I think so. + +14,706. But at the same time you say that they do not have a +sufficient amount of good underclothing?-Yes. I do not think +they have a sufficient amount of good, warm, substantial +underclothing for the climate in which they live. + +14,707. Might they not get that if they required it in return for their +work?-I suppose they might, but the fact is that they very seldom +have it. They rather prefer to take showy outside clothing. + +14,708. If women are reduced to distress for food, but yet have a +considerable supply of handsome clothing, would you not suppose +it natural that they should have recourse to the pawnbroker's shop +in winter, or when they were in straits?-I would, but I am not +quite sure if there is a pawnbroker's shop here. There is a sort of +pawn in the town, but I don't think it is much resorted to. I have +no doubt, if they were in a large city, they would resort to the +pawnbroker's; but pawnbroking is practically unknown here. The +people, some way or other, have not got into the way of it. + +14,709. Have you known any cases in which women, in a state of +distress for food, have sold their clothes to private individuals for +it, or have endeavoured to do so?-I am aware that there are one +or more old women employed, either regularly or occasionally, in +going round the houses and hawking clothes which had been +obtained by knitters for their goods. On one occasion I met in with +one of these women. I was seeing a patient in the house of one of +the lower orders, and the woman came in with some article of +children's clothing to sell. I inquired how she had got it, and I was +told that she was hawking it for some person who had got it for +knitting goods. + +14,710. Then she had not bought it, but was selling it as the agent +of another person?-Yes. She was selling it, as I understood, as +the agent of the knitter. + +14,711. Have you had opportunities of obtaining any knowledge +with regard to the amount of immorality which prevails in +Lerwick?-I have heard, and I have reason to believe, that it +prevails to a very considerable extent; but I have had no means +of obtaining any accurate knowledge on the subject. + +14,712. Are you aware whether the amount of professional +prostitution is greater in Lerwick than in other places of the +same size?-I am not very well acquainted with small towns +similar to Lerwick; there are only one or two small towns that I +know well. I am better acquainted with large cities, such as +Edinburgh and Aberdeen; but I scarcely think that in Lerwick +there is a greater amount of professionals prostitution, in +proportion to the size of the place, than there would be in a +seaport town of a similar size. + +14,713. Would you say there was a larger amount of occasional +prostitution?-I believe there is. I don't think I could prove it, +but I have good reason to believe so. + +14,714. Is that from knowledge which you have obtained in +the discharge of your professional duties, or is it from general +observation?-It is partly from hearsay, and partly from general +observation. + +14,715. Can you ascribe that in any degree to the system of barter +which prevails?-I think it may to a large extent be accounted for +by that system; because the knitters, I believe, are insufficiently +supplied with food, and they are supplied with plenty of handsome +clothing. They are thus led to walk about the streets good deal, +and are in that way led into evil courses. + +[Page 370] + +14,716. Is that an opinion which you have entertained for some +time?-Yes. I think it is to be expected in the ordinary course of +events, that if women, have insufficient food and plenty of showy +clothing, they will be more apt to go astray than others who have +comfortable homes, and plenty of food and clothing in keeping +with their position in life. + +14,717. You are aware, I presume, that statistics show the amount +of illegitimacy in Shetland to be less than it is in many parts of +Scotland?-I am aware of that. + +14,718. Is not that inconsistent to some extent, or apparently +inconsistent, with the opinion you have expressed about the state +of morals in Lerwick?-It is apparently inconsistent; but I am +afraid that in Shetland we get credit for a higher state of morality +than we are entitled to, in the country districts. + +14,719. Do you mean that the system of registration here is not +efficient?-I mean merely that the Registrar General's returns do +not always show that illegitimacy corresponds with immorality. + +14,720. Is that in consequence of the marriages being celebrated +at such times as show the existence of what clergymen call +antenuptial fornication?-It is partly in consequence of that, +but not altogether. + +14,721. Then is it possible to reconcile these statistics entirely +with the prevalence of an excessive amount of immorality?-I +have heard attempts to explain it, but I don't know if they were +satisfactory. However, it is such a delicate matter that I would +rather not enter further into it. + +14,722. Have you no satisfactory explanation to give on the +subject?-No. + +14,723. Has it fallen within your observation, that the want of +food has had any physical effect upon the women employed in +knitting?-I remember being recently told by a respectable +married woman, who was very well acquainted with the habits of +knitting girls, that many of them enjoyed very good health, and felt +pretty well and vigorous during the first two or three days of the +week, but became languid towards the end of it; and she explained +that circumstance in this way: These girls got an extra supply of +food on the Saturday night, and they walked about a good deal +during the Sunday, which, as it were, recruited them; but towards +the end of the week their supplies got exhausted, and they did not +enjoy much out-door exercise, and therefore became languid. + +14,724. How do you account for their obtaining an extra supply +of food on the Saturday night?-They were probably settling +then. Many of them, I may explain, are not mere knitters, but are +otherwise occupied. They are very ready, I believe, to take other +work when they can get it, and many of them live not wholly by +their own exertions, but partly on their parents and friends; +therefore there would be extra supplies of food and groceries +going into the house on the Saturday night, which they had +enjoyed during the first days of the week. + +14,725. Have you been aware of cases in which the way of dealing +has led to the formation of imprudent habits on the part of the +women?-I think they are very extravagant as regards dress. + +14,726. Do they also expend a great deal of money on what may +be called luxuries in food, rather than upon what is necessary, +when they have money?-I think they do. The lower orders in +Shetland use a very large amount of tea, much more than is good +for them. It is very strong tea, and they take it very frequently +during the day-I think to an unwholesome extent. I think it +injures their health very considerably. + +14,727. Is oatmeal still used to a great extent as an article of +diet?-It is used in the country districts, but I think not so much +in Lerwick. Here it is more loaf bread that is used. + +14,728. In what form is oatmeal generally used in the houses of the +poorer Shetlanders?-I think it is chiefly in cakes, what would be +called scones in Scotland. I don't think it is so much in porridge, +so far as I am aware. + +14,729. Is that the bulk of the diet of a fisherman's family?-That, +and fish and potatoes. + +14,730. Don't you think that, taking the Shetlanders as a body, +they are as well off with regard to diet and clothing as any similar +class in Scotland?-I think the peasantry in the country are so, on +the whole. The lower orders in Lerwick differ considerably from +those in the country districts; there are more employments open +to them. I think the people in the country are better fed, on the +whole, than those in Lerwick. They enjoy more fresh air, and are a +better-off class of people, on the whole, than the lower orders here. + +14,731. Has any special matter come within your observation +that you think of mentioning with regard to the system of barter +in other trades than hosiery?-Nothing very special. I think the +system of the men being compelled to fish to the landlords or +tacksmen on certain estates is a bad system, and should be +abolished. One of the many evils resulting from it is that very +often men don't know whether they have money or are in debt. +They may think they have means, and at settling time they may +discover they have nothing. + +14,732. Would that not happen all the same if the creditor were +a merchant who had no connection with the land?-It might, it +arises from the system of long credits. + +14,733. Have you known cases in which a man was under a false +impression as to the balance at his banker's, as one may say?-I +have. The other day a man in the country sent for me to visit his +wife professionally; and on leaving he told me he had not the +means in the house, but that he had sufficient to pay me, and good +deal more, at the merchant's. I afterwards saw the merchant with +whom he dealt, and he told me something similar. He also told me +to send the man's account to him, which I did; but a few weeks +afterwards the merchant wrote me that he had been mistaken,- +that he found, instead of the man having means in his hands, that +he was in debt, and he had had to advance him his rent, and that I +could not get my account paid in the meantime; but that he would +do his best to get it for me at a future time. + +14,734. Is it a common thing to have accounts paid in that way +through the merchant?-Very common. + +14,735. The merchant, in short, appears in many cases to transact +the whole of a man's business affairs?-Yes; he appears to pay his +rent very often, and to transact other business for him. + +14,736. He pays accounts for him of all sorts?-Yes. + +14,737. So that the man may know nothing at all of his money +affairs?-He may know little or nothing. + +14,738. Do you speak of that as being a general thing within your +own knowledge?-Yes. + +14,739. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that +system of dependence upon the merchant upon the character of +the people generally?-Yes; they are deficient in that sturdy +independence, if I may so express it, which characterizes the +peasantry throughout the rest of Scotland. The system fosters a +dependent, time-serving, deceitful disposition, and it cripples +enterprise. + +14,740. Don't you find at the same time that the people are +generally very well able to take care of themselves in any ordinary +transaction? They have intelligence sufficient?-Yes; they are +sharp enough. The Shetland peasantry possess very considerable +intelligence; but there is in them a want of proper independence. + +14,741. Do you mean that the position in which they are develops +a kind of cunning rather than acuteness or cleverness?-Yes; it +fosters a sort of low cunning. The system having been continued, +one might almost say, for centuries has fostered that element in +their character. + +14,742. That you represent as being the principal defect in the +Shetland character?-It is one of the principal defects. + +14,743. In other respects, do you not think they are a very superior +class to the ordinary run of peasantry in Scotland?-They are +careful and intelligent, and they are [Page 371] pretty well-bred. +They have a good deal of the <suaviter in modo>, more so than +the most of peasants but there is that want of proper independence +amongst them which I have mentioned, and they are of a very +conservative disposition. I mean by that, that there is a want of +desire to better themselves; for instance, to improve their houses, +or to produce better crops, or to educate their families. There is a +want of proper ambition among them; they are content to remain +very much as they are. + +14,744. Do you mean to represent that as being the effect of the +system of barter which prevails?-I think it is partly the result of +the system of barter, and partly of the short leases which are given +of the land, and the want of any encouragement to improve their +land and houses. + +14,745. As a rule, the houses in Shetland are still in a very +defective condition?-Very much so indeed. As far as we can +see, they are in the same condition as they have been for centuries. + +14,746. Are there many districts in the country where the houses +still consist of a single room and have no chimney?-There are a +good many instances in which they want chimneys, but they have +generally two apartments-a but and a ben end, as it is called. + +14,747. In such houses how is an exit furnished for the smoke?- +Just through holes in the roof called 'lums;' but I am glad to +observe a disposition to correct that in some districts. In many +houses lately I have noticed that they have built wooden chimneys, +and these improve the houses very much. + +14,748. That has been so in Unst; but perhaps your professional +duties don't take you so far?-I have not been in Unst for some +years. + +14,749. But in the course of your professional visits you have to +travel over the whole extent of the mainland?-Yes, over the most +of it. + +14,750. Formerly, I understand, glazed windows were very rare in +Shetland?-Very rare. + +14,751. Has there been a change in that respect in recent years?- +Yes, a very considerable change; but in some of the more primitive +districts glazed windows do not exist yet. + +14,752. In that case, is the light only admitted by the door?-Only +by the door, and the lum or hole in the roof. + +14,753. Are there many houses of that description in Shetland +still?-A good many. I am afraid I could not say accurately how +many. + +14,754. Can you say whether these houses are inhabited by people +who are pretty well-to-do as peasants?-Yes; I believe many of +them are pretty well-to-do. They have bits of ground, and good +earnings from their fishing, and are free of debt; and probably +many of them have some means, although that is not known. It +is one peculiarity of their character, that they don't like it to be +known when they have money. I believe many of the men have +considerable means in the banks, but they conceal it. + +14,755. Have you had occasion to observe that yourself?-I don't +know that I have had direct occasion to observe it; but I have heard +it, and I believe it to be the fact. + +14,756. Is it the current belief among those with whom you +converse, that there are many of the fishermen who have means +of their own, which they conceal from other people?-Yes. + +14,757. What would you say was the character of the Shetland +people with regard to sobriety?-I should say that, on the whole, +they are very sober and steady; and I may give an illustration of +that. It is well known that the Shetlanders as seamen are very +highly prized at ports in the south, such as Liverpool and Shields; +and very often a shipmaster, when desiring a crew, will put into +the advertisement 'Shetland men preferred.' I believe the reason +for that preference is not so much that the Shetlanders are better +seamen, although they are as good if not better than others, but +because they are more steady and more to be depended upon. For +instance, I have heard of a shipmaster who, if he had occasion to +land at Quebec or some port in America, and had to take a boat's +crew on shore with him to bring him back again at night, he would +select the Shetland men in his crew for that purpose if there were +any, as he was more sure of having them in waiting for him at the +time he wanted. That is not the result of personal observation, but +it is what I have heard on good authority. I may state further, as a +proof of their sobriety, that I have had occasion to examine it very +large number of Shetland seamen in my capacity as Admiralty +surgeon and agent. I have held that office for five and a half years, +and during that time I have examined probably between 500 and +600 men, and I almost never yet found any traces amongst them of +venereal disease, which is it very common thing amongst seamen. +That is a proof of the steady habits of the Shetland men. + +14,758. I understand there are very few public-houses in +Shetland?-Very few. I think there is only one public-house +in the mainland of Shetland outside of Lerwick, but there are +several places holding grocers' licences where the men can buy +liquor. + +14,759. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I don't know +that there is anything further, except that I may state it as my +opinion, that it would be better, both for merchants and their +customers, if the barter system were abolished and all transactions +were carried on in cash. I believe the system of long credits is +very injurious to all the parties concerned in it. + +14,760. Do you think habits of independence would be fostered +among the Shetland people if they received their wages or other +payments in cash?-Yes; habits of independence and enterprise +would be fostered, and I believe the merchants would be able to +make better use of their money by turning over their capital more +frequently. + + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, PETER MOODIE, examined. + +14,761. Are you it seaman and fisherman in Lerwick?-I am. + +14,762. Have you been for a number of years at the sealing and +whaling?-I have been at it since 1855, exclusive of two years +when I was south. + +14,763. Did you always ship from Lerwick?-Always. + +14,764. From what agent?-I have been from them all. The first +year I shipped was from Hay & Co., the next from Mr. Leask; and +I have been from Hay & Co., Mr. Leask, and Mr. George Reid Tait +ever since. + +14,765. Did you get your outfit from Hay & Co. in 1855?-I did. +I was then a boy, and I was glad to get it from them, because I had +no person to give it to me except the agent. + +14,766. Is it usual for green hands to get their outfit from the agent +who employs them?-Yes. I don't think they would get it from +any one else. + +14,767. Did you pay off your outfit in the first year?-I did, and I +had something to get. + +14,768. Have you always had something to get ever since?-No, +not every year. One year our ship had to come home because the +master had fallen from the mast-head, and I was not clear with the +agent upon voyage; but I shipped again to Davis Straits, and I did +clear it off before the end of the season. + +14,769. Do you always get a large quantity of supplies from the +agent you ship with?-If I want it, I do, but if I like, I can get my +first month's advance and my half-pay ticket; only, I find that the +agents can supply me with everything I wish, and I have not taken +a halfpay ticket except in one year, and I sold it as soon as I got it. +I found, however, that I could get my goods as cheap from the +agents as from the grocer's shop; and besides, I found that when I +took my ticket to a grocer he did not like it. But the agents will +allow you to take whatever you want. I have seen me go into an +agent's shop in Lerwick about Christmas, and he would advance +me 10s. or 15s. or £1 if I wanted it, and I paid him up for it, +perhaps in the course of the [Page 372] next year; whereas I don't +think many of the grocers would have advanced me one penny. + +14,770. Don't you think your wife could have got her goods +cheaper if she had had the money to pay for them?-No. I have +never found that I could get them any cheaper. I have had +groceries from a grocer's shop, and I have had the same things +from agents, and I have found them to be all the same price. + +14,771. It was the practice some years settle your accounts at the +agent's shop, just in the same way that a fisherman settles with his +curer at the end of the season?-Yes, we did that regularly. + +14,772. For some years back, however, you have had your wages +paid to you at the Custom House?-Yes. + +14,773. Have you had them paid without any deduction except +your advance?-Yes, except that and the ship's bill. If I had taken +any goods from the agent before I went out, of course I got my +money, and I could go and pay him when I wanted. He did not +take it from me at the Custom House. + +14,774. Did the agent ever seek to deduct the amount of his +account at the Custom House?-Never from me. I cannot +speak for anybody but myself. + +14,775. Did you never see it attempted?-I did one year, but that +was before they understood exactly how it was to be done. They +had made out our account of wages so that the amount of their +account was taken off; but as soon as we came to the Shipping +Office, the shipping master told the agent that it was not to be +done in that way. He altered our accounts of wages so that the +money was all given to us, and then we went back to the agent's +shop and paid him. + +14,776. Was that in 1867 or 1868?-I don't remember which it +was. I think it was in 1867. + +14,777. Has any deduction of that sort been made since?-Never +from me. + +14,778. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House +to the agent's office and settle your account with him?-I +generally do so, if I think the agent is in his office; but if he is +settling with some others besides, and has to wait with them at the +Custom House, I may wait until the next day and then go along +and settle it. + +14,779. Do you generally go down from the Custom House in +company with the agent or the clerk who has been paying you?- +Generally I do. I think it is as well to pay my debt as long as I am +able, rather than to spend the money, and perhaps not be able to +pay afterwards. + +14,780. Have you any difficulty in getting an engagement in a +good ship?-I have never had any difficulty in getting an +engagement from any of the agents I applied to, either from Hay +& Co. or Mr Leask or Mr Tait. If I told them I wished to go in +such a ship, they generally gave me a chance, if I was pleased +with the wages; and if the wages were low and I would not go, I +generally got an engagement in some other ship. + +14,781. Did you ever get your outfit or supplies from some other +agent than the one you engaged with?-No. I never did that, +because I found I could have no advantage by it. I have found the +system better here than ever I did in the south, because here, if I +got my first month's advance, I could get a half-pay ticket along +with it; but in the south when I shipped, I got a month's advance, +but very seldom a half-pay ticket. In some places I have paid 2s. +in the pound, and sometimes 3s. in the pound, for cashing my note; +while here the agents don't charge any money for cashing an +advance note at all. In Glasgow I have paid 2s., and in the Sailors' +Home I have paid 1s. 6d. for that, but here I pay nothing to the +agents; at least I have never done it. + +14,782. When you take an advance note, do you generally cash +it?-Yes, here I do. + +14,783. Are you not content to take it out in advances of goods?- +If I require it I take it; and if not, I do not. They never asked me to +take it in that way. I have come into the office, and I said I wanted +my advance note cashed. It is not supposed to be paid until after +the ship leaves, but generally the practice with us has been to come +down as soon as soon as we have finished signing and ask to get it +cashed. Perhaps there is not enough money in the office at the +time, and they will give us £1, and say that we will get the rest +afterwards. However, I may be willing to take it until I can get it +all, and I came back again and get it all. + +14,784. When you come down to settle you account at the office, +are you usually asked if you want any more goods?-When you +come down to settle you account at the office, are you usually +asked if you want any more goods?-I was never asked to go and +settle my account and to take more goods; but after the money was +laid down before me, and I went into the shop to settle any small +account I had, they would say, 'Do you want any clothes, Peter?', +and I would say 'No;' and there would be no more about it. + +14,785. How do you do about the last payment of oil-money? Is it +paid at the Custom House?-Generally it is. It has been paid to +me for the last two years; but last year it was not, because I was +away when it was due. They asked me if I wished to go to the +Custom House with it, and I said I did not; that it was all the same +to me if I got the money when I cleared the ship's book. + +14,786. Have you sometimes had a large sum to get for a last +payment of oil-money?-Yes. One year I got about £5 for it +from Mr Leask. + +14,787. Do you take payment of that when it becomes due, or is +it not paid to you usually until you go to get engaged for the next +year's voyage?-I have never waited so long for it as the next +year's voyage. + +14,788. When you get your second payment of oil-money, is it +just put into your hand, even although you have been running an +account?-Yes. If I have been running an account they lay down +the money to me, and then they tell me what my account is, and +pay it. + +14,789. Do you continue to run an account with the agent after +getting your first payment?-Sometimes I do, but very seldom. + +14,790. Do you pay in cash at the time for any supplies you get +after you have received your first payment?-Yes; whatever I get +I pay for them at the time. + +14,791. Do you deal in any particular place for them?-Yes; in R. +& C. Robertson's. + +14,792. You don't deal during winter with the agent who had +engaged you for the voyage?-When I have got an engagement +through a particular agent, I don't think it is right that I should +take the money from him and give it to another; and therefore I +get what I want for the voyage from the agent that I getting money +from. + +14,793. But why do you prefer dealing with R. & C. Robertson in +the winter time?-Because Mr. Robertson and I were boys at +school together; and when I had a house of my own, he supplied +me with goods when I wanted them. That was my only reason for +preferring him to any one else. + +14,794. But notwithstanding that, you prefer to go to the agent for +the supplies you want, when you are on your voyage?-Yes. I +have tried it both ways. I have tried taking money out, and buying +what I wanted with it, but I did not find that it made any +difference. + +14,795. Is there not a sort of understanding among seamen who go +upon Greenland voyages that they are to take their supplies from +the agent who employs them?-I cannot say for anybody but +myself. There may be such an understanding, but I cannot say. +They may perhaps have asked me if I wanted some small things, +and they were there for me if I wanted them; but that was in +addition to my first month's advance, and they ran their risk of +being paid for them. + +14,796. But is there not such an understanding among the men, +that they are to get their supplies from the agent who employs +them?-Yes, that is the general understanding among the men; but +the agent does not bind them in any way to take them. They never +did that to me; I don't know what they may have done to others. + +14,797. Might the men not stand a chance of not having a good +engagement next year if they took their custom elsewhere?-That +is wherein the agent loses; [Page 373] at least I don't know if they +lose, but they run a chance of losing when the men go off to +another agent, because they have then to lie out of their money. If +they have made advances to the amount of £3 or £4 to a boy who +has only 15s. or 16s. a month, and who will only be out three +months on the voyage, they cannot get their money from him then; +and perhaps they may never get it, because the boy may go upon a +south voyage, and then they lose sight of him. There have been +cases of that kind which have come within my own knowledge. I +was shipwrecked in 1869, and young lad who was along with me +told me he owed 10s. to Mr. Tait. We came back to Shetland +again, but he went south two months afterwards, and I don't know +if Mr. Tait has been paid yet. The boy has not come back to +Shetland again, at any rate. + +14,798. But that was not the question I was asking you. What I +asked was, if you did not take your custom to the merchant who +employed you, would you stand a chance of not getting a good +engagement next year?-I have never had any difficulty in that +way. I have got an engagement through Mr. Leask, and taken £3, +2s. out of his shop for a voyage of six weeks and a few days; and I +came back again next year, and got a ship the same as ever. I went +in the same ship again. + +14,799. Is there anything more you wish to say?-I went out +for Mr. Tait last year. He has resigned the business now to his +brother-in-law and another, but I have no doubt I shall go back to +the shop and get ship from them; or I could get one from Messrs. +Hay the same as ever, if they had any ships this year. + +14,800. Have you ever paid a subscription to the Shipwrecked +Mariners' Fund?-Yes. + +14,801. Have you ever got anything out of it?-Yes, twice; both +from Mr. Leask and Mr. Tait. + +14,802. Had you much to get?-The first time I had anything to +get was after I had been paying in two years, and I got 30s. when I +came back. + +14,803. What did you lose that year?-I lost different things that I +could hardly name. + +14,804. Did you get the things replaced?-No. + +14,805. Did you get cash for the 30s.?-Yes. + +14,806. Was that cash put into your account?-No, I got the +money paid down to me. + +14,807. Was it paid down in the same way the next time?-Yes. +At that time I got it from Mr. Leask. In fact I got it from him +before the money was actually payable, because I was going south. + +14,808. When was that?-In 1864. I was wrecked in the 'Emma,' +and I wished to get south; but I had not money enough, and I went +to Mr. Leask, and he advanced it to me. + +14,809. How much does your outfit generally cost at the beginning +of the year?-I could not exactly say. Some years it will be more, +and some less. There are some of the men who have people that +make things for them, but others have got nobody to do that, and +therefore they have generally more to get from the agents. + +14,810. Do you generally lay out £1 or £2 in that way before you +start upon your voyage?-Yes; and sometimes £4 or £5. + +14,811. Is that an unusual sum?-Yes. + +14,812. Who insures the outfit?-The agent generally insures it for +his own advantage, so that if the ship is lost he gets his money. + +14,813. But they charge the insurance to you?-Yes, they charge +the insurance to us if we tell him to insure it. For a good many +years I told the agent to insure for me, but I have not lost any ship. +When I did lose a ship I have not been charged for it; at least if I +was, it was not with my knowledge. + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Daniel Inkster, examined. + + +14,814. Are you a seaman living in Lerwick?-Yes. I have been +here for the last two years. Before then I lived in the North Isles, +on the property which is now in Mr. Walker's hands. + +14,815. Have you been at the sealing and whaling for a number of +years?-Yes. I have been there for the last fifteen years, but not +every year. I was at the ling fishing for about seven years during +that time, at Cullivoe, where Mr. Peter Sandison lives. + +14,816. Why did you leave Yell?-I was one of Major Cameron's +tenants, and I was put away by his factor, Mr. Walker. He offered +us leases but of course we knew it was not in our power to take +them. + +14,817. Why was that?-Because our farms were so small; and +when we had to take one-fifth of them for rye-grass, that made +them a great deal less. Then the scattald was taken away from +us; but we still had to pay our rent, for all that. + +14,818. Were you offered a lease?-Yes; but the lease was all on +his side, and there was nothing on our side at all. + +14,819. When you were in Yell, were you bound to fish for any +one?-No. There was no binding at all. + +14,820. Where did you get your supplies?-From Mr. Sandison. + We always fished for him, and got our supplies from him. I was +three years under Mr. Walker. During the first two years I paid my +rent, but in the third year we had either to take his lease or go and I +knew that I was not able to do it. He said to me that I would have +to leave; but I did not know where to go, and I had a family to +support. The last year I was on that property I came a little short +of my rent, and I wanted him to wait for it until I came down to +Lerwick; but he said he was not to wait any longer. He asked me +what means I had to give him, and I said I had not much means at +all. I said if he chose to take the crop he might do it, but that I +would be left to starve afterwards. He took the crop at his own +hand, and never put a value upon anything at all; but he told me +that if I was not off the ground by such a time he would put me off. +He went away to the south at that time, and when Candlemas came +round I got a room in Lerwick before he came back. He has done +that to a great many more besides me. + +14,821. Then you had to leave because you had not paid your +rent?-He got the corn and potatoes for the rent. + +14,822. But you did not give him money; and if you had paid +your rent he would not have taken your crop?-No; but many a +proprietor has to wait for month or a couple of months for that, +and he sometimes does not get it even then. + +14,823. Were you not fishing for Mr. Sandison then?-Yes; but +there was a very small fishing that year. + +14,824. Had Mr. Sandison paid your rent before?-No; I had paid +it. + +14,825. You had not been at the whale fishing for several years +before that?-No; but I have been for the last two years. I have +gone to it since I have been living in Lerwick. + +14,826. Whom do you ship with?-For the last two years I have +gone out for Mr. Leask. + +14,827. Did you require an outfit when you went two years ago?- +Yes. I got it from Mr. Leask. It cost about £5. + +14,828. What were your wages?-£2, 5s. + +14,829. Were you both at the sealing and whaling that year?-Yes; +I went both voyages in the same ship. + +14,830. Were you due a large account to Mr. Leask at the end of +the year?-About £16 or £17. + +14,831. Was that for supplies to your family?-Yes. + +14,832. Had you any money to get for your voyage?-Yes. I had +£12 to get in the first year. + +14,833. Had you £28 of earnings for the year?-Yes, for the first +and second payments. + +14,834. Was that money paid to you at the Custom House?-Yes. + +14,835. How much of it?-The whole of it; and then I went down +and paid what I was due at the shop after I had been paid off at the +Custom House. + +14,836. Who went down from the Custom House with you?- +There were a good many more than me going [Page 374] down,- +men who had been settled with at the same time. + +14,837. Did you all go down together to Mr. Leask's?-Yes. + +14,838. Who settled with you there?-Mr. Robertson. + +14,839. Did you go down with him?-No. One of Mr. Leask's +men came up to the Custom House and paid us there, and when +we came back Mr. Robertson settled with us at the shop. The +person who settled with us at the Custom House was either +Andrew Jamieson or John Jamieson, I don't remember which. + +14,840. Did he not go down to the shop with you?-No. + +14,841. Did he say anything to you about going down to the +shop?-No. + +14,842. Had you seen Mr. Robertson or any of Mr. Leask's people +before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes, one of them told +us we had to go there, and that he would be there to settle with us. + +14,843. Did he tell you anything else?-He did not tell me +anything. + +14,844. Had he arranged with you before about meeting him at the +Custom House for the settlement?-Yes, either the night before or +that morning. + +14,845. Had he sent for you to tell you about that?-No; we were +waiting there for a settlement. + +14,846. Did he tell you at that time how much your account was +with Mr. Leask?-Yes. + +14,847. And did he tell you that you would have to pay it when +you got your money?-Yes. + +14,848. Accordingly you did pay it when you got your money, as +you had been told?-Yes. + +14,849. Did you get an engagement from Mr. Leask in the +following year?-Yes. + +14,850. Had you an account with him in the same way then, and +some money to get at the end of the season?-Yes. + +14,851. Were you told in the same way that you would be settled +with, and that you would have your account to pay to Mr. Leask +after you got your money?-Yes. + +14,852. Did you come down from the Custom House with Mr. +Jamieson then?-I did not. + +14,853. You had been told before that you had to go down to the +shop?-Yes. + +14,854. And you did go down and pay your money?-Yes. + +14,855. Had the rest of the men been told the same thing, that they +were to come down and pay their accounts after receiving their +money at the Custom House?-Yes, all the men who were in town +that day. + +14,856. Did you get any of your supplies anywhere else than at Mr. +Leask's?-No; not when I was in his employment. + +14,857. Why not?-Because I thought I could get my things just as +cheap from him as I could get them anywhere else; and another +reason was, that if I was short of money I could go and ask him for +a supply, or for a little money; whereas if I had gone to any of the +small groceries in the town they would not have been able to give +me that. + +14,858. Where do you get your supplies in the winter time when +you are at home?-We generally take couple of bolls of meal from +Mr. Leask and pay for them, or get an advance of them if no trade +is doing in the town, or if any of us are in bad health. + +14,859. Do you sometimes get your supplies elsewhere in +winter?-Generally if we have any money, we can buy them at +the cheapest market. There is no particular place where we go +to. + +14,860. Do you sometimes find a cheaper market somewhere +else?-No. Mr. Leask can give an article as cheap as anybody in +Lerwick can do. There is a Mr. Fraser, a grocer in Lerwick, from +whom we got some things in the dead of winter. We take them +from him during the week, and pay him on Saturday night for +them. + +14,861. Are his things as good and cheap as Mr. Leask's?-Just +the same. He only charges us the currency. + +14,862. Do you employ yourself at any trade during the winter?-I +work at anything I have the chance of, when my health permits +me. If I get the chance of discharging vessels, or doing a day's +work, or anything of that kind, I take it; or sometimes we go to +the fishing in a small boat. + +14,863. Do you always subscribe to the Shipwrecked Mariners' +Fund when you go the whale fishing?-Yes. I have been nineteen +years in that Fund. + +14,864. Did you ever get anything out of it?-I have got out of it +twice. I was cast away in 1863 at Davis Straits, and I had £2, 15s. +to get then. I got it in cash from Mr. George Reid Tait. The +second time was when I lost a small boat by a storm at sea. + +14,865. Were you at the fishing at the time?-No, the boat was +secured, but the water came in and took her away. I applied to +the agent, and he valued the boat, and sent the money to me. + +14,866. Were you running an account with the agent at that +time?-No. + +14,867. Were you running an account with the agent at the other +time when you got money from the Society?-The first time I was. +I had an account with Mr. Reid Tait then, and I got the money +from him which I had to get from the Society. + +14,868. Do you know whether you pay insurance for your outfit +when you get one?-I have done so, but not during the last two +years. + +14,869. Why?-Because I always insured so much on the voyage +myself, perhaps upon £7 or £8. + +14,870. Why do you do that?-In case the ship is lost, and then of +course we get that paid to us until the insurance is taken off. + +14,871. Who do you arrange that with?-With the agent who takes +out the insurance for us-Mr. Leask or any of the agents. They +take 1s. 8d. per £1 for insuring. + +14,872. Is that for insuring the ship?-Yes. + +14,873. Then it is not the agent's advance to you that is insured?- +Perhaps they insure that themselves, but I don't know whether we +pay for it or not. + +14,874. Is the insurance you have mentioned the only one you +pay?-Yes; the only one I pay, to my knowledge. + +14,875. Do you get any writing for that insurance?-It has never +been asked. + +14,876. Has it ever been offered to you?-No; it never was offered +that I have been aware of, because we always had to go to the ship +and leave here to go south. Therefore I wrote to my wife to go to +the merchant about the insurance. + +14,877. Do you not join the ship at Lerwick?-Yes; but we are +landed in Shetland from the sealing, and the vessel goes south and +discharges her oil, and then they send for us to go south and join +the ship there. That has been done during the last two years. + +14,878. When you get your wife to insure for you, where does she +go?-She goes to Mr. Leask. + +14,879. Do you not know whether Mr. Leask charges you with an +insurance upon your outfit?-No; at least I never was sensible of +it. + +14,880. Do you not read over your account when you settle it?- +Yes, but I never observed that in it. + +14,881. Is there no sum for insurance charged in it?-Not to my +knowledge; but it may have escaped my notice. + +14,882. How does your wife pay for the insurance which you +effect?-I pay for it myself at the end of the voyage. + +14,883. Who told you about the insurance first?-Mr. Leask or +some of his people. I don't know any of them in particular; but +of course we have always done it. + + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ARTHUR JOHNSON, examined. + +14,884. Are you a tenant and fisherman at Colafirth, near +Ollaberry?-I am. + +14,885. Do you go to the ling fishing every year?- [Page 375] +Yes. I was one year a hired boy, and I have been thirty-three years +a sharesman. + +14,886. On whose land are you a tenant?-On that of Mr. Gideon +Anderson, Ollaberry. It is let on tack to Mr. John Anderson, his +brother, and to Mr. John Robertson, Lerwick. + +14,887. How do you pay your rent?-We pay our rent at Hillswick +to Mr. John Anderson. + +14,888. Is that done when you settle for your fish?-We have to go +a day or two after we have settled for our fishing, and pay our rent +to Mr. Anderson. We get a line from the man we have settled with +and go to Mr. Anderson with it, and then he writes us out a receipt +for the rent. We do not get the money to give to him at all. + +14,889. Do you settle with Mr. William Irvine at Ollaberry?-Yes. + +14,890. Are you bound to sell your fish to him?-He is only the +factor for Messrs. Anderson & Co. We are bound to sell our fish +to them. + +14,891. Are you not at liberty to sell your fish to any other person +you please?-Not in the summer time. We have not had liberty to +do so for the last four years. + +14,892. How do you know that?-Because Mr. John Anderson has +told us so himself. + +14,893. Have you wished to sell your summer fish to any other +person?-Yes. If I was at liberty I could have an advantage by it. +I have cured my own fish for nineteen years. + +14,894. What advantage would you have by doing that?-We sell +to more advantage when we are at liberty, but now we get less +from Mr. Anderson than we got before for our salt fish, and we get +from £1 to 30s. per ton less than he paid to other men who were +free men. Last year he paid the free men £22, and he paid me £20, +10s. for salt fish. + +14,895. Was it Mr. Irvine who did that?-Yes. He settled +according to Mr. Anderson's order. Mr. Irvine is only the +factor, and keeps the shop. + +14,896. Were you not free to sell your cured fish to any person you +pleased?-I did not think it. + +14,897. But probably your cured fish were not of such good quality +as those which brought £22?-I would put my character for having +good fish against that of any man, because we attended to the +curing of our fish ourselves. We only had a boy for washing, but +we split and cured them ourselves, and we paid them all the +attention we could. I know that the quality was good, because +those who knew good fish told us so and I also knew it myself. + +14,898. But when you got £20, 10s. offered to you, why did you +not take your fish to another market if you thought you could get +a better price for them?-It was not in my power then, because the +fish were in Leith; they had been shipped there. + +14,899. Did you deliver your dried fish without knowing what +price you were to get for them?-Yes. + +14,900. Why did you do that?-We must do it. We had no cellars +of our own, and we had to put them into Mr. Anderson's cellar. + +14,901. Why did you not get the price fixed before you delivered +them?-Because that is not the practice. When we deliver our +fish, they tell us they don't know the price. + +14,902. Did you not see the bills of sale after the fish were sold in +Leith?-No, I never see them. + +14,903. Might you not have seen them if you had asked for it?-I +never asked for it. + +14,904. Then you have no reason to believe that you got less for +your fish than they actually brought when sold in Leith?-I cannot +say what the Leith price was. + +14,905. But you could have seen the bills of sale if you had asked +for them?-I do not think I would have been allowed to see the +bills of sale. + +14,906. You cannot be sure of that unless you had asked for +them?-No, I cannot be sure of that; but I don't believe they +would have been shown to me. + +14,907. Why did you not ask for them?-I don't know. + +14,908. Were you afraid to do that?-No, I was not afraid; but it +did not occur to me to do so. I know that last year I was stopped +from selling my fish, and free men were paid 8s. 6d., while I was +only paid 8s. for them. + +14,909. Was that for your green fish?-Yes. + +14,910. Then what fish were you selling dry?-Ling, tusk, and +cod. + +14,911. Were these your winter fish?-No, they were the summer +fish. + +14,912. But I thought you were bound to deliver your fish green to +Mr. Anderson?-No. We had been in the practice of salting them +before we delivered them, and we continued to do so until last +year; but he stopped us from salting them then. + +14,913. I thought you said you had been bound for four years?- +Yes. It is four years since we were bound to fish for him regularly; +he got the tack then. + +14,914. Have you been fishing for Mr. Anderson for these four +years?-Yes; three years we delivered the fish to him salt, and +one year green. + +14,915. Then all you were bound to do was to deliver your fish to +him, either salt or green?-Yes. + +14,916. You could cure them or not, as you liked?-Yes, for the +first three years; but this year he would not allow us to cure them. + +14,917. Was that because the quality of your cured fish was not +good?-The fish were good. + +14,918. Did he not assign that to you as the reason?-No. When I +was told not to salt the fish last season, I went to him and asked +him if that was on account of bad fish, and he said, No, he could +not say that it was. + +14,919. Did he give you any reason for not allowing you to +continue to cure your own fish?-Very little. + +14,920. Did he give any reason at all?-He said that other +fishermen in the neighbourhood were thinking that they might +be allowed to cure their fish as well. + +14,921. Do you think fishermen generally can cure their own fish +as well as when they are cured by a factor who gives his whole +time to it?-I think so, provided they would pay a little attention to +it themselves. + +14,922. Do you get your supplies at the shop at Ollaberry?-Yes; +or from Mr. Anderson's factor at the fishing station at Hamnavoe. + +14,923. Can you get these supplies as cheap at Ollaberry as you +can get them anywhere else?-Yes. He made an arrangement last +year that the meal was to be all one price, whether it was got at the +station or at Ollaberry. We got it a little cheaper by taking it from +Ollaberry the year before; but he made the regulation last year that +it was to be all one price. + +14,924. But do you get it as cheap there as you could get it from +any other shop in the country?-No. If we had our money we +could get it a little cheaper from Lerwick, or from other places. + +14,925. How do you know that?-Because I buy some things +from Lerwick, such as meal and tea, and I sometimes get the meal +a little cheaper, according as the market there is high or low. + +14,926. Have you any pass-books or accounts to show the prices +you pay for the articles you get?-No. I kept a pass-book for a +year or so, but I rather thought the prices were too high, and it +annoyed me to look at it, and so I gave it up. + +14,927. Did you think the prices were higher because you had the +pass-book?-No. I thought they were rather too high, at any rate. + +14,928. Did it not annoy you quite as much to hear the prices in +your account read over to you?-When my account was read over +at the time when I paid it, I knew that the price was high; but I do +not think there was anything in the account except what I had had. + +14,929. Is the price of your meal mentioned to you at the time +when you get it at Ollaberry?-Very seldom. + +14,930. Do you ask to know the price?-Sometimes we ask, and +sometimes we do not. + +14,931. Does the price vary throughout the season?-[Page 376] +Yes, sometimes it does, according, to the rise and fall in the +market. + +14,932. It is not sold at one price all the year round at that shop?- +No. + +14,933. Do you buy your own boats at Ollaberry?-I had a boat of +my own until four years ago; since then I have had a hired boat. +The boat hire is £2, 10s. I got my lines ordered for me from the +Glasgow market, because I thought I got them a little cheaper in +that way. 21/4 lb. lines cost me 1s. 11d., including freight and +everything. + +14,934. Do you get any 2-lb. lines?-No; but we can get them at +Ollaberry. They charge 2s. for them there. A 21/4 lb. line would be +charged 2s. 3d. there if paid in cash, and 2s. 6d. if marked down to +be paid for by instalments. + +14,935. Can you show me any account for the lines you get from +Glasgow?-No; it is five years since got them from there. + +14,936. Were the prices you have mentioned as being paid for +lines at Ollaberry the same as you would have paid there five +years ago?-Yes, the price has been the same. The lines I am +using now are the same lines that I got from the market for myself. + +14,937. Did you buy a great quantity of them at that time?-I +bought 25 buchts. + +14,938. Did you get them for yourself only, or was it to sell to your +neighbours as well?-It was for myself only. + +14,939. Is there anything else you wish to say?-With regard to the +fishing, I would like liberty to sell my fish to any man who would +give me the highest price for them, or to cure for myself. We had +some casks for storing salt, and we broke them down, and parted +the staves among the partners to whom they belonged. Then there +was a fish vat which is my own, and it is lying on the beach, and +no man to buy it from me. It has been a loss to me altogether. + +14,940. Was that in consequence of the intimation that you were +to fish for your landlord?-Yes, and that I was to stop salting my +fish. + +14,941. Can you not get all your supplies at a cheaper shop than +Ollaberry if you choose?-I could get them from other parties +cheaper, but I don't have the money in my hands to get them +cheaper at present. + +14,942. Can you not get the money as an advance upon your +fishing?-No. We could get a little, but not to a great extent. + +14,943. Could you not get as much as would buy you a boll of +meal?-Yes, but that would not serve for boat for the fishing +season. We would need nearly two sacks. + +14,944. Could you not get an advance of money upon your fishing +large enough to buy that in Lerwick?-I don't think it; but there +are other things required besides that. There are tea and sugar, and +various other things that are necessary for the use of the men when +they are at the fishing. + +14,945. Do you think you would buy any cheaper if you had the +money to buy these things with yourself, instead of getting them +on credit from the merchant?-Yes, I would be cheaper. + +14,946. Would you be any better off if your money was paid to you +fortnightly or monthly?-Yes, if I was at liberty to sell my fish to +any one who would give me the highest price for them; but if I am +bound to give my fish to any particular man, and he gives me no +higher price than he pleases, I would be no better off. + +14,947. From whom did the free men you mentioned get 8s. 6d. for +their green fish while you only got 8s?-From Mr. Anderson. That +was at the settlement this year. + +14,948. How many free men got that price from him?-There +were four free men in that boat, and two tenants; but the six men +that were in my boat were all tenants. + +14,949. Did your boat get 8s. per cwt. for all the fish of the +season?-Yes; and the others got 8s. 6d. + +14,950. Did the two men in the other boat who were tenants get 8s. +6d. also?-I think they all got the same. + +14,951. Where did the four men who were not tenants come +from?-They live at Colafirth. They bought their boat and lines, +and agreed to pay for them. We asked for 3d. per cwt. extra +because the lines we used were our own, but they would not give +it. + +14,952. Do these four men not live on Mr. Anderson's land?- +Two of them live on his land, and two on Busta. + +14,953. If two of them live on Anderson's land, how are they +free?-They are not free. They sell their fish to him. + +14,954. But you said four of the men were free: where do they +live?-They live at Colafirth, on the property of Mr. Gifford of +Busta. + +14,955. Do all the four free men live there?-Yes. + +14,956. Was there any reason why they got 6d. more than you, +except that they were free men and lived on the Busta property?- +No; I knew of no other reason. + +14,957. Did they not buy their boat and lines?-Yes, they had their +own lines, but the lines we had belonged to ourselves too. + +14,958. Was it said that they got a higher price because they had +their own boat and lines?-Yes. + +14,959. Did Mr. Irvine say so?-Mr. Irvine did not settle with +these men. It was Mr. John Anderson himself. + +14,960. Did he say that he gave them the higher price because the +boat and lines were their own?-Yes. + +14,961. He did not say it was because they were free men?-No, +he did not say that; but had they not been free men, I don't think +they would have got it. + +14,962. Have any men who live on Mr. Anderson's estate got boats +and lines of their own?-Yes. I think there is one man who has +got a boat and lines. + +14,963. Did he get 8s. 6d. too?-I don't know what he got. + + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled. + +14,964. I understand you wish to give some additional evidence to +what you gave when you were examined at Brae?-Yes. In the +first place I spoke as if the party I have from Lunnasting parish +was still in my house but it is four months since that party was +removed to another house, at the instance of the Board of Lunacy. + +14,965. How many different prices of meal are there at Voe, +according to the weight sold?-A party taking a whole sack will +get it at a less price; when divided and subdivided, the meal rises +in price. + +14,966. What is the lowest price just now?-I have not bought any +lately, and I cannot tell; but there has been flour sold lately for +fifteenpence a peck. + +14,967. Is there only one price for meal at Vidlin?-Yes; only one +price for the same meal, whether you take it in large or in small +quantities. That has been my experience. + +14,968. Have you any statement to make about the rise in price at +Voe according to the southern market?-Yes. I have been told +that Mr. Adie has said that it should rise not only in his cellar, but +in his book too, according to the market in the south. Henry +Manson, post-runner between Voe and Lunna says he heard him +say so. + +14,969. But that is not what you know yourself; it is only what +you have heard from other people?-I have heard Mr. Adie say so +myself, that it would rise in price both in his cellar and in his book. + +14,970. Do you mean that it rises with the southern market?-Yes; +but at Vidlin it does not rise until the meal that has been bought at +a certain price has been finished. Mr. Sutherland has told me that +a quantity of meal bought in by Mr. Robertson at a certain price +remained at the same price until the last of it was sold, and the +same with the next parcel. + +14,971. When you have pass-books at Voe, is the price generally +entered in the pass-book at the time when you get the meal?-No; +it is not entered until [Page 377] settlement, when it is compared +with their book, as my pass-book will show. There are several +quantities of meal in it for which no price is entered. + +14,972. Is it entered at settlement at one price for the whole +season, or at different prices?-I cannot tell. If what they say is +true, it is entered at the highest market price if the market has +risen, because they say it rises in their book as well as in their +cellar. + +14,973. You have produced several pass-books to me. Is that +[showing] a pass-book of your father's in account with Mr. Adie +at Voe?-Yes. + +14,974. Have you carried through some of the transactions for your +father at Mr. Adie's shop?-Yes. + +14,975. I see here an entry on April 21, 1868, '24 lbs. meal at 5s. +3d.:' who made that entry?-It was made at the shop, not by me. + +14,976. Here [showing] is another entry, 'April 25, one lispund +Indian meal, 5s. 6d.:' who made that?-My father perhaps made +some entries in the book himself when he got things, and when the +pass-book was not sent to the shop. + +14,977. Was that entry made by your father?-The entry of 24 lbs. +meal at 5s. 3d. is not by my father. I think the other is by him. + +14,978. There is another entry, June 30, of 'Indian meal, 2s.:' who +made that entry?-It is not in my father's writing. It has been +made at Voe. + +14,979. There is another entry, 'July 1, one boll Indian meal, 16s. +6d.:' who made that?-It is my father's. + +14,980. There is another, 'Dec. 6, Indian meal, 1/2 lisp. 2s.?'-Yes. + +14,981. That account has been settled in January 1869, you having +given 21 yards cloth at 3s. 6d.?-Yes. + +14,982. Have you any doubt that all the things entered in that +account were got by your father?-No. They were all got and +settled for. + +14,983. The next account was settled on March 17, 1870: have you +any doubt that all the things entered before that date were got by +your father at Voe?-No, they were all received. + +14,984. On November 25 he got 1/4 gallon oil at 6d.: would that be +sillock oil?-Perhaps it was. + +14,985. In that settlement your father is credited with 26 yards +cloth, which comes to £3, 13s. 8d. There is something else that +comes to 1s., being £3, 14s. 8d. due to him, and £2, 19s. 4d. to Mr. +Adie, leaving a balance in your father's favour of 15s. 4d.?-Yes. + +14,986. Mr. Adie takes a discount for cash of 1s. 6d.: does that +mean that he charged 1s. 6d. of discount on the 15s. 4d. which he +was to pay to your father?-Yes. + +14,987. Why was that?-I don't know; but it was a common thing, +that when he gave cash he gave so much less for the cloth. + +14,988. Was it the rule that all cloth was to be settled with by +goods?-The price was 5 per cent. less if paid in cash. + +14,989. But was it the rule that all the cloth was to be paid for by +goods?-No. They just had to take the goods for convenience; but +the wool was my father's, and I could go to whom he pleased with +it. + +14,990. The account for 1870 in the book is still unsettled?-It +has been settled lately, and my father's account is now in another +book. + +14,991. Do you think the things that are marked in that book were +got at the prices which are entered there?-Yes, so far as I know, +they were. There was no dispute with my father, either about price +or anything else. + +14,992. We will go to your own books. Is this [showing] your +pass-book with Mr. Adie at Voe from 1869 downwards?-Yes. + +14,993. Were all the articles entered there got by you at the prices +which are there marked?-Yes. + +14,994. I see that in June and July 1869 there is some meal and +flour entered in quantities, without any price being marked?-Yes. + +14,995. How did that happen?-They know best themselves why +they did not enter the prices. I cannot explain it. + +14,996. I show you an entry of one quarter boll Indian meal: is that +in Mr. Adie's handwriting?-I don't know; it will be in the writing +of some of Adie's men. All the entries in that book were written +in the shop. + +14,997. Has that account been settled?-Not yet. + +14,998. Is that the reason why the price has not been put in?-No, +I should not say that was the reason. + +14,999. Is this [showing] a continuation of the other account?- +Yes. + +15,000. Have you got all the articles that are marked in this +book?-Yes. + +15,001. Did you get all the articles entered there at the prices +which are marked?-Yes, I got them at the prices marked when +there is any price; but there is a sack of pease-meal entered +without any price to it. + +15,002. I see an entry on May 30, 'To dog licence, 5s.; by cash, 2s. +6d.:-2s. 6d.:' what does that mean?-I had 2s. 6d. that I paid as +part of the dog licence, and Mr. Adie charged me with the rest. + +15,003. Did you pay that licence through Mr. Adie?-Yes. + +15,004. Does he transact all your business for you in that way?- +Yes. + +15,005. Does he pay your accounts for you?-No; he never pays +any accounts for me, that I know of. + +15,006. Did he only pay your dog licence for you?-He only paid +one half of it. He might have paid the whole if I had asked him to +do it. + +15,007. The following are some of the entries in your book:- + + 1869. + May 18. 24 Ind. ml., 0 3 0 + 16 o. meal, 0 3 0 + 29. 35 o. meal, 0 4 3 + June 14. 1/4 boll In. meal. + July 8. 35 sec. paring flour. + 30. 35 overhd. flour. + Oct. 23. 1/4 gall. oil, 9d. + Dec. 10. 16 lbs. flour, 2s. + +Was the oil mentioned in the entry of October 23, oil which you +required for burning?-Yes; and I could have got it at the same +time at Mr. Robertson's for not above 2s. per gallon. + +15,008. In the continuation of that book there are the following +entries:-'1871. May 31: 35 Ind. meal; 35 Shetland groats:' did +you get these articles?-Yes. + +15,009. Have you had any price fixed for them yet?-No; but I +knew the price current at the time. + +15,010. There is also in the same book an entry under date June 2, +'1/2 boll overhead flour,' and 1s. 3d. is marked in small figures +above the entry: what does that mean?-I don't know. It was +there when I got the book home, but what it meant I could not say. + +15,011. There are other two entries under date June 16, of '35 +Indian meal, and 35 flour,' with the small figures 1s. and 1s. 3d. +respectively written above them in the same way?-These figures +may mean the price of the meal and flour per peck at that time. + +15,012. There are also the following entries in the book:-'June +26, 35 flour, 5s.; July 5, 35 flour, 5s; and July 13, 28 Shetland +meal, 3s. 91/2d.:' have you any doubt that all these entries which +have been read are entries of articles which you got at the times +stated from Mr. Adie at Voe, and that they were charged at the +prices marked in the pass-book?-I have no doubt the entries are +quite correct as to that. + +15,013. You have also produced to me a pass-book kept by you +with Mr. Robert Sutherland at Vidlin, in which I find the following +entries. 'Nov. 11, 1869: 16 lb. oatmeal, 2s. 6d. Feb. 11, 1870: 16 +lb. oatmeal, 2s. 3d.:' have you any doubt that these articles were +got and charged at the prices stated?-I have no doubt of that, and +that these were the regular prices they were being sold at. + +15,014. Is there anything else in these books to which you wish to +direct my attention?-There [showing] is an entry in the book with +Mr. Adie, September 26, sack pease-meal, and there is no price +stated. + +[Page 378] + +15,015. But there is no price fixed of fifty things in the book?- +No; that is what I say. + +15,016. Did you not ask to have the price of that pease-meal fixed +at the time?-No. + +Lerwick, January 29, 1872, CHARLES ROBERTSON, examined. + + +15,017. Your firm of R. & C. Robertson have an extensive trade in +provisions in Lerwick?-Yes; we do fair business, both wholesale +and retail. + +15,018. Is it generally one kind of meal that is kept by each +merchant for ordinary retail purposes?-So far as I know, it is. + +15,019. Do you generally have only one quality of oatmeal in stock +at a time?-Yes. + +15,020. Is it the same with Indian meal?-We have not been in the +habit of selling Indian meal. + +15,021. Can you tell me the price of oatmeal on 21st April +1868?-It was 26s. 6d. per boll of 140 lbs. is the credit price; +for cash it would be 6d. less. + +15,022. How much would that be for 24 lbs.?-About 4s. 6d., or +about 1s. 7d. per peck. + +15,023. Would is 7d. per peck be your selling price at that time?- +Yes. + +15,024. Would 1s. 9d. per peck have been a high price for it in +Lerwick then?-It would have been much higher than we would +get for it. + +15,025. Would you be surprised to find that at that date it was +selling in the country districts at is. 9d.?-I would. + +15,026. Was the price in a fluctuating condition about that time?- +I see that a month later it was 1s. less, and two months later it was +2s. less per boll. The market was falling in April. + +15,027. Did it continue to fall during the rest of the year?-I see +that a month later than the last quotation I have given it was just +about the same price. + +15,028. Was there a good harvest in 1868?-No; but the crop here +does not affect the market price. + +15,029. But was there a good harvest that year over Scotland and +England?-I don't remember just now. I see that in August 1868 +the price was up 6d. per boll. + +15,030. Was the price as high as 1s. 9d. per peck in January +1869?-It was not. I see on 26th January we have it charged at +23s. per boll, which would be about 1s. 6d. less per boll than it +was in July, and 3s. 6d. less than it was in April 1868. + +15,031. Therefore you would say that in January 1869 meal was +considerably cheaper than it had been in April of the previous +year?-Yes. + +15,032. What was the price of oatmeal on February 11, 1870?-I +don't have the price on the 11th; but on 5th February it was 17s. +3d., and on the 15th 17s., or about 1s. per peck. + +15,033. Have you any means of telling me the price of Indian +meal, although you do not sell it?-I have bought two or three +bolls of it within the last year or two, and I have paid somewhere +about 13s. or 14s. per boll for it. That would be somewhere +about 9d. per peck, or rather 10d., because in weighing out there is +generally about half a peck of loss per boll, and allowance must be +made for that. + +15,034. Then 1s. per peck would be rather a high price for it by +retail?-Yes, it would be high enough. + +15,035. I suppose the qualities of flour that you sell in your trade +are more various than the qualities of meal?-Yes, we have +several qualities. + +15,036. What would be the price of your best flour on October 6, +1869?-I see the finest quality of flour would be about 14d. per +peck. The next quality below that was 16s. per boll, which would +retail at 1s. per peck; that is overhead flour, what we call fine. + +15,037. On 2d June 1871 what would be the price of overhead +flour?-It was 16s. 6d. per boll on 30th May, which would retail +at 1s. per peck. There are two qualities of overhead flour, fine +and common. + +15,038. At that date would 1s. 3d. per peck have been a high price +for overhead flour of any quality?-Yes, it would have been a top +price. 1s. per peck was the price of the common kind; but there is +only a difference in price of about 2s. per boll between common +and fine. + +15,039. Therefore, even for the fine quality, 1s. 3d. would be it +very high price?-Yes. + +15,040. What were the average prices of oatmeal in 1870?- + +In Jan. about 17s. 9d. In April, about 17s. 6d. + " Feb. " 17s. 3d. " May, " 18s. 9d. + " March, " 17s. 6d. " June " 19s. 0d. + +Up to the middle of July it was 19s. 6d., and then it took it start in +the beginning of the French War up to 22s. In a week it was down +1s., to 21s., at which it continued during the first three weeks of +August, and the last week 19s. 6d. September, 19s. The first week +of October, 19s.; second week, and to the end of the month, 18s. +6d. November, 19s. December, about 19s. 3d. In 1871 the prices, +taking them about the middle of each month, were- + + s. d. s. d. +January, 19 6 July, 21 6 +February, 20 0 August, 21 0. +March, 20 6 September, 21 0 +April, 21 0 October, 20 0 +May, 21 6 November, 19 0 +June, 21 6 December. 19 6 + +In January 1872, 19s. cash, or 19s. 6d. credit. The prices I have +given are all credit prices. If the cash was paid for meal at any +of these times, it was always 6d. per boll less. + +15,041. How do you proceed when you sell by the peck?-We +always allow half a peck or a peck per sack for weighing out, +and that comes to about 1/2d. a peck. + +15,042. So that, when meal is 19s. 6d., as at present, it is 131/2d. +per peck?-Yes, either cash or credit. We would not make any +difference on the peck. + +15,043. What was the price of flour at June 26, 1871?-Common +overhead flour about that date in June was 16s. per boll, and the +best overhead would have been 18s. or 18s. 6d. There is another +quality of fine flour, the finest quality we keep, which would have +been about 22s. per boll, or 5s. 6d. per quarter. + +15,044. Was the price the same about 5th July following?-About +the same. There has been little or no alteration on the price of that +flour almost the whole season. + +15,045. If you saw an entry of flour at 5s. in a passbook, and +another of overhead flour at 1s. 3d. in the same book within the +course of a month, would you think it probable they were the same +article,-the quantity not being mentioned?-Yes. 5s. would be +the price of a lispund, or four pecks and 1s. 3d. of peck. + +15,046. Shetland meal, I suppose, is an article that you hardly ever +have in the market?-We seldom or never buy it. In fact there is +very little of it now to be got. + +15,047. Then you cannot give me any information as to the price +of it last July?-Not last July, but it always sells considerably +below the price of south-country meal. + +[Page 379] + +LERWICK, TUESDAY, JANUARY 30, 1872. + +<Present>-MR GUTHRIE. + +ANDREW JOHN GRIERSON, examined. + +15,048. Are you the proprietor of the estate of Quendale?-I am. + +15,049. Are you also engaged in the fish-curing business?-I am. +I have been so for 11 years. + +15,050. Mr. Ogilvy Jamieson is your shopkeeper at Quendale, +and keeps a shop there for the supply of your neighbours and +fishermen?-Yes, for the supply of my fishermen primarily, and +for any one else who chooses to go to it. + +15,051. The returns you have made to me show the amount of +dealing which these fishermen have had in accounts at your shop, +and also other particulars of your business?-They do. They have +been made up from my ledger for the two years which have been +selected. + +15,052. Were these favourable years for the fishing, or +otherwise?-1871 was an exceedingly favourable year. I +should say that 1867 was not more than a medium year. The +price was miserable, but I had a great quantity of fish. Both +the fishing and the price were good in 1871. + +15,053. How do you arrange with your men about boats? Do the +boats belong to themselves, or are they hired out?-I have no +boats. They are debited to the men. + +15,054. How long does it generally take for a man to pay up the +price of his boat?-I have had no experience of these six-oared +boats, such as I have been furnishing lately, because the fishing +was entirely of saith until now. + +15,055. Have you introduced larger boats lately?-Yes. I have got +the men encouraged to take them within the last three years; and I +have only supplied the large new boats within the past season. + +15,056. About what number of tenants have you upon your +estate?-I can tell by referring to the copy of my valuation +return for the last year; but only one half, the smaller half, of +my property is in Dunrossness. There are 48 tenants on +Quendale and Brough, in Dunrossness. + +15,057. Does that include the large farm there?-No; I am not +including myself. I am holding my own farm, and I have counted +it out. I have also counted out the Free Church minister, who +holds a house from me. + +15,058. Are these 48 tenants all men who might fish?-Yes; they +don't all fish to me, but they might fish. + +15,059. You have also a number of tenants in Sandsting?-Yes; I +have 108 there. + +15,060. Are the tenants in Sandsting at liberty to fish for any one +they please?-They are at liberty to do anything under the sun, if +they only pay me my rent. They are under no obligation whatever. + +15,061. It is said that there is an obligation on the tenants on +Quendale to deliver their fish to you. Is that so?-It is. That is +a condition upon which they sit upon the ground. + +15,062. Have you found them generally willing to agree to that +condition?-They have agreed to it without the slightest difficulty. +I am the third generation of the name for whom they have fished. +They never sat upon the property on any other condition since it +was purchased by us about 1765. + +15,063. Do you consider that condition to be beneficial to the +landlord and the tenants?-I do. I am satisfied that it is beneficial +for the tenants when the landlord will take the trouble; but it is a +very great deal of trouble. + +15,064. Does it not depend entirely upon the landlord's efficiency +as a man of business, whether the condition is a beneficial one for +the tenants or not?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce, junior, Mr. Urnphray, +and I are the only proprietors in the country who carry on the +fishing to any extent. + +15,065. Do you think it would be necessary to increase the rents of +the tenants if they were not under that obligation to fish for you?- +I certainly should increase their rents in Dunrossness if they were +not under that obligation. + +15,066. You are aware that a great deal has been said about that +kind of obligation, and that some of your tenants and many of Mr. +Bruce's have come forward and complained loudly about it?-I +know that. I understand the complaint of a great part of Mr. +Bruce's tenants has turned very much upon the question whether +they should be allowed to dry their fish for themselves. + +15,067. To some extent it has; but they also wish to be able to +sell their fish as they please, whether they dry them or not. Still +it is the case that a good many of them have spoken very strongly +in favour of being allowed to cure their fish for themselves?-I +would not carry on the fishing upon that condition at all. + +15,068. Would you not buy the fish if they had been cured by the +men?-No. I would not undertake to do that on any consideration, +because you would just be swindled, and you could not help +yourself in buying the dry fish. The men are not able to cure +their fish and be ready to commence the next season's fishing. +They could not come to me or to any other person at the end of +the year, and say in an independent manner, 'Will you buy my +fish?' because, in the first place, they must come to me or to some +other person and ask, 'Will you be pleased to supply us with salt +and, meal, and so on, and we will dry our fish and deliver them +to you?' If we agreed to do so, the men commence, it may be +from February, and we supply them with salt, lines, meal, and +everything they require, and that goes on until the end of the +fishing in August, when we must take their fish, but the fish are +mortgaged already. Then, if we go to look at the fish, we find they +have been salted with the least possible amount of salt, and they +are just a parcel of rubbish; but we have paid for them already by +the advances we have made, and we must take them and make the +best or the worst of them. Besides, in the case of an unprincipled +man, he has got the thing in his own hands, because he is aware +that he has already pledged all his fish to you. They are still his +property, however; but while the fish are undelivered, it is very +easy for him to slip some of them on board one of the packets +running to Lerwick, and sell them to any person for cash down. I +am not a lawyer sufficient to know whether that would be a case +of theft or not; but when the wet fish are weighed to me out of the +boat, it is my own fault if I don't cure them so as to be fit for the +market; and if any fellow steals any of my fish, then it would be +a case of theft. I have seen the results of such a system on a +neighbouring property, because Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh's property +has only been under his son's management for eleven years. +Before then his tenants were at liberty to go anywhere they liked, +and they were drowned over head and ears in debt, both to their +landlord and to their fish-curers. + +15,069. Do you think the indebtedness of the fishermen is reduced +when the landlord takes the fishing into his own hands?-I do +think so; when they are dealt with in the same manner that is +followed at Dunrossness now. + +15,070. But you are speaking now of the previous state of +indebtedness, not from personal knowledge of [Page 380] +your own tenantry, but from what you know of Mr. Bruce's?- +I was as well acquainted with them as if they were my own +tenantry. I was living at my own place then; and when young +Mr. Bruce and I went into partnership together, and endeavoured +to secure the tenants from some of the merchants in Lerwick, it +was part of our business to ascertain the exact amount of debts +upon the south part of the Sumburgh property. + +15,071. Are you prepared to say that the amount of debt due by the +fishermen on that property was greater then than it is now?-I am +not prepared to say anything more than what Mr. Bruce told me +about the year 1866 or 1867. 1866 was the last of a series of years +when there were very few of them in debt. Mr. Bruce and I were +talking over the matter, and I was bragging about how small the +debt was in my case, and he told me then that the debt was very +much reduced; and I believe that now they are due nothing to any +person except himself. + +15,072. Can you give an idea as to the amount of debt that was +due at the date you speak of? Do you think it would amount to +the whole value of the stock on each man's farm in one half the +cases?-No; nothing like that. A man's stock mounts up to a large +amount of money when it comes to be turned into cash. I would +not speak to precise figures; but my impression at present is, that +the debt at that time might amount to about three rents, or +something like £1200. There might be three rents in arrear of +the rental. + +15,073. Have you had any experience that enables you to compare +your own property, at a time when it was not in your hands for +fishing purposes with what it is now?-No. It has never been out +of the hands of my family since the time I mentioned. + +15,074. I believe it is not a common practice to raise rents in +Shetland?-No; there has really been very little done in that way. + +15,075. Has that something to do with the system of fishing for +and obtaining supplies from the landlord?-I don't think it has +been so much that, as the fact that the landlords are resident in the +place, and there is a sort of moral pressure brought to bear upon a +person who is living in the neighbourhood. You don't like to +make yourself odious among the neighbours round about you. I +think that has had more to do with it than anything else. It is not +the same sort of thing as if a factor was raising the rent for a man +living at a distance. On the Annsbrae estate the proprietors had +not had the fishing for a long time, but I believe there was not +a rise of rent there for two generations, until Mr. Walker +commenced to deal with the property a few years ago. The land +there was very cheap. I think the land is not over-rented, and there +has been very little change upon it in that way until lately. + +15,076. I understand the proprietors interested in fishing invariably +make advances to their tenants, in the form of meal and goods?- +They must do so. + +15,077. That, I suppose, arises from a want of ready money among +the tenantry themselves?-Yes. Those who have not ready money +must have these advances. There are some people who do not +require them. + +15,078. Don't you think their number would be increased if by a +ready-money system they were encouraged to save money and to +acquire habits of frugality?-I don't think so. My experience, +from the beginning of the business, so far as I have had to do with +it, has been, that under the present system a prudent man who +chooses to exercise self-denial could pass out of all possible +control, either of landlord or fish-curer, to do him any injury. He +could, if he chose, draw his money and send it where he liked; and +I have had numbers of men who have not dealt to the extent of £1 +in the year with me since I began business. They just took their +money at the end of the year, and supplied themselves where they +chose. + +15,079. Does it not seem to you that the improvident have undue +facilities for obtaining credit when they get supplies for the fishing +from the landlord, who has an inducement to carry them on in the +knowledge that they have to fish for him?-That has not been my +practice. I don't like to make any bad debts, and in two cases I +have turned a man about his business because I could not keep him +out of debt. The most profitable fisherman is the man who pays +his way, and not the man who takes goods out of the shop. + +15,080. But in order to get your boats manned, I fancy you are +obliged to make these supplies?-Yes, we must make advances. + +15,081. Do you think the system of paying a man cash down for +his fish, or at shorter intervals than an annual settlement, could be +carried out?-I cannot see how it would work; and besides, I think +if such a plan were introduced, the people would just revert to the +present system. I am perfectly satisfied that, if you were to pass a +law requiring the men to be paid in cash down, the result would be +that we would have a meeting, and we would agree to pay so much +per cwt., and the fishermen would say, 'We know you, and we will +trust to you paying us that price at the end of the season.' That +would be the case with the greater number of curers, such as Hay +& Co., Mr. Garriock, and myself. The price would be fixed at a +particular time but the men would take our word for it that they +were to be paid at the end of the season. We would have to pay +them a nominal price at short intervals in order to satisfy the law, +but they would expect to be paid a higher price at the end of the +season, if it turned out that we realized a higher price for our fish. +That would be a binding arrangement, on the one side at least. + +15,082. But that would not be a very fair bargain?-It would just +be the bargain that we are constantly forced to make with the +fishermen, because they always expect the curers to be fast on one +side, but not on the other. For instance, if they sign an agreement +to go to the Faroe fishing from March to August, and it comes a +bad year, they don't get so many fish as makes the voyage a +profitable one for them, and they say they will rather go to prison +than go to the fishing another year, unless you put them upon +wages. In the meantime you have made advances to them, and you +must give them the chance of that. I know that Messrs. Hay and +others have engaged fishermen for that fishing at a settled price, +but when the end of the season came the fish had been sold so well +that other curers were paying a high rate, and they have just had to +put the bargain in the fire, and pay according to the higher price, or +lose the services of the men. + +15,083. Could not an arrangement of this kind be carried out, +that a price should be fixed to be paid weekly, or fortnightly, or +monthly, on the delivery of the fish, according as the case may be, +and that the fishermen should be entitled, as in the whale fishing, +to an additional payment, similar to oil-money, at the end of the +season?-Yes, they might be paid at such a rate as the curer could +afford, in the same way as is done now; but that would come +practically to the same thing as the present system. + +15,084. Would it not be a system of paying weekly wages, with an +additional payment in proportion to the produce?-It would not be +wages: it would be a weekly payment for produce, because weekly +wages would never do. + +15,085. Would it not virtually be wages, with a bonus on the +amount of the produce besides?-I suppose it would; but wages +are a different thing from paying a man for what he delivers to +you. If you pay a man wages, he may turn lazy and do nothing, +and you cannot be looking after him when he is at the fishing. + +15,086. But this would be a payment of wages, and something +more. He would have an inducement to work in order to increase +the total produce at the end of the season?-That might be so; but I +have thought over the subject, and I see no other way in which the +system can be worked than it is at present. The law will be +complied with nominally, but matters would fall back into their +old state. + +15,087. But if the law only required a certain proportion to be +paid at short intervals, could it not be complied with, not only +nominally, but substantially, in that way, and still recognise such +an arrangement as [Page 381] you consider would be necessary?- +It might be, but it would be a very disagreeable and a very difficult +thing to carry out. It would be hardly possible to arrange the price +that, was to be paid for the fish during the course of the season. + +15,088. Would the price not always be very considerably below +what the fish were expected to realize?-Supposing the price in a +number of years had been, on an average, 7s. or 8s. per cwt. for +ling, probably both curers and fishermen might agree to fix 5s. 6d. +as the rate at which the men were to be paid in the course of the +season, reserving to them a further payment, according as the +fishing turned out?-Yes, it might be managed in that way quite +well; but then what would the people do before they got any fish +ashore at all? How would they be able to live then? + +15,089. I suppose the object of the Legislature would be to teach +them to lay by something on which they might be able to live +when they were not actually at the fishing?-That might be the +object, but the people might die in the teaching. It is all very well +to come down and see the country in a year like this, when money +has been flush; but if you had seen such a year as 1868 or 1869 or +1870, when the people were coming to you in January starving, +and wanting you to advance them meal and other things, and a big +debt standing against them at the same time in the merchant's +books, you would have seen that it was not such a matter of plain +sailing then. + +15,090. Don't you think that even at that season the fishing might +have been prosecuted to some extent?-No; there was nothing to +catch. Besides, a good crop makes a great difference in Shetland. +I don't think I bought thirty bolls of meal in the south country last +year, but I was buying 300 or 400 for the same number of men in +those years. Still, although the men are in such distress in bad +years, I think you ought to know what an amount of money some +of the fishermen have lying in the Union Bank, on deposit receipt. +You would find then that they are not so poor as they have been +represented. + +15,091. Do you think most of the deposits in the banks here under +£100 belong to fishermen?-I think so. + +15,092. Do you also think that a number of the deposits above that +sum belong to people of the same class?-I am satisfied of that. + +15,093. In short, you think that almost all the deposits in the banks +here must be those of fishermen?-I think most part of them are +those of fishermen, crofters, and small tenants throughout the +country; because I think that any person who had accumulated +more than that sum would be likely to invest it in some more +remunerative way than to leave it on deposit receipt in the bank. +When people have been told in the public prints that a Shetlander +nearly loses his head when he sees a £1 note, it is very important +that there should be some inquiry on that subject. + +15,094. Do you think that men who are indebted to you, for +instance, or to any other person engaged in business, and getting +advances in the course of the year, are likely to have deposits in +the bank?-I don't think that. I could tell over the names of the +men upon my property who I suppose have deposits; but I am +perfectly satisfied that none of those who are indebted to me have +any deposits at all. + +15,095. It has been alleged that a fisherman might get advances +from the merchant who employs him, although he had a deposit +receipt in the bank, especially in a distant place, where it would +cost some trouble to him to go to his bank and get his deposit +receipt altered. Do you think he would do so if he only wanted a +small sum?-I believe that to a certain extent he would. I believe +that he might take advances from his landlord's shop during the +season, although he had a deposit receipt, if he saw that he could +get the things as moderate upon credit from his landlord as he +could elsewhere, paying for them at the end of the year. That is +sometimes done when the men want a boat. There are tenants of +mine without means of their own, who have come to me and said +they wanted a new boat. I would ask them who was to pay for it, +and they would tell me that some of the men to whom the boat was +to belong were not able to pay for then, although others might be +able to pay their share; and it was better for the whole of them to +pay their shares at the end of the season, because the men who had +the money would have got no advantage by paying it at the time. + +15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear +at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I +settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a £10 +note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with +me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year. +But he would never think of having a permanent running balance +with me if he had money of his own in bank. + +15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit some +of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?-Yes, I +believe they do that for a single year. They would be great fools if +they did not. They keep a pass-book, if they choose, with the shop, +and they would be no better off if they were to pay for their goods +in money. + +15,098. Would they not be better off if they could get their goods +cheaper for cash?-I don't know that they could do that. I cannot +get the things any cheaper from the Lerwick dealers for cash. I +pay my accounts here every six weeks, and get only 2s. 6d. or so +off £4 or £5. + +15,099. But are not the prices in Lerwick lower than they are in +your quarter?-I don't think so. I think I am selling as low as they +do in Lerwick, and sometimes even lower. Mr. Gavin Henderson's +shop is near ours, and he acts as a powerful pressure upon us. + +15,100. Do you sometimes exact liberty money?-I have exacted +liberty money two or three times from landholders. I don't take it +from young men-only from landholders. Three guineas is what I +fixed it at, but I asked a pound only for the last man who fished off +the property. His name was James Shewan; and I told him this +year that he could fish for nothing, because I wanted his land to +put a few sheep on. He is going to fish for nothing this year, and +he is to leave at Martinmas. + +15,101. That is to say, he is to fish to any party for nothing?-He +can fish to any person he likes. I believe in the evidence which +has been given, mention was made of a lad Thomas Johnston not +getting liberty to go home to his father's house because he was +fishing for another curer. The understanding I have with the +tenants is, that I expect them all, both young men and old, to fish +for me, on condition that I pay them as well as any other person; +and I want to put as much pressure as I consider reasonable upon +them for that purpose. But young men are not to be bound always +to fish at the home fishing, and sometimes there may not be a way +suitable for them; and I have told them all in such a case that they +could go to Faroe or to Greenland, or go out of the parish into the +next parish, and prosecute the fishing there. This lad Johnston, +who was the son of a man considerably indebted to me, went down +to the other side and fished to Messrs. Hay & Co., and I daresay I +did come pretty hard down upon the father for allowing his son to +go away. The result was, that the lad spent his winter about a +mile and a half or two miles from his father's house in service +there, but he has been back since then. On other occasions two +or three young men have left the parish when they could not get a +convenient boat in it, and gone to Dunrossness to the fishing, and I +have never said anything to them about it. There is one lad who is +to fish for Mr. Bruce in a boat's crew of his in the incoming +season, and I have made no objection to it. + +15,102. There was another case mentioned in the previous +evidence also-that of a man named Williamson, at Berlin. It +was said his son was engaged to a neighbouring crofter as a +servant, and that he had been obliged to leave that and come to +your employment as beach boy for a lower wage?-I cannot tell +anything [Page 382] about that; but, as a rule, I expect the boys to +serve me at the beach on the usual terms. I always make a point +of informing them in plenty of time, perhaps about August, that I +will require so and so the following year, so that they may not +make any other engagement. If such a thing took place with +Williamson's son, I never heard of it. I had a boy named +Williamson in my employment at the beach last season, and I +suppose he was a son of old James Williamson's, but I knew +nothing about him having been previously engaged to another +service. With regard to liberty money, I may say that in 1867 +Charles Eunson paid me over £3 or three guineas; and John +Flawes. I think they fished to me in the following year. + +15,103. One complaint made by the men with regard to the price +paid to them for their fish, was that some neighbouring curers at +Sandwick, Thomas Tulloch and James Smith, paid 9d. per cwt. +more for ling, and also an additional price for other fish above +what is called the current price: can you explain how that arises?- +I can explain how the current price, according to which we pay, is +fixed, but I don't understand how Tulloch and Smith can pay the +price they do. If you can investigate that and let us see it in the +blue-book, we will perhaps get a wrinkle out of it; but we cannot +understand it in the meantime. What I promise to my fishermen, +and what I promise any stray boats that come to me-and I have +three or four boats fishing to me just now from Simbister +property-is, that whatever Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. John Bruce, +Mr. John Robertson, and Mr. Mullay pay, will be paid by me also. + Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Smith are no guide to me with regard to the +price which I am to pay; and I tell the men they must go to them if +they want their price. + +15,104. Can you account for their higher prices by the fact that +they sell, not to wholesale dealers as the larger merchants do, but +to retail purchasers, and thus get both the retail and the wholesale +profit?-That may account for it. I know that Tulloch's boat is +coming up to Lerwick every week during the summer with casks +of fish for retail dealers. Of course, when I am shipping 100 tons, +I must allow a middle-man to take them, and he must have his +profit; but I have nothing to do with how Tulloch manages his +business. + +15,105. Do communications pass between you and the other +fish-curers as to the price of fish before you settle with your +fishermen?-The fact is, that I have always found it the most +difficult thing possible to make out what price they were going +to pay. One curer may get a sort of a pull over another if he pays +6d. or so above the market price but that leads to very disagreeable +feelings. I have asked Hay & Co. repeatedly what price they were +to pay, and they have given me no answer; and I have actually +found the current price by taking care to be about the last who +sold, and seeing what my neighbours had got before me. At the +present time I have squared up my books at a certain price; but Mr +John Bruce has not settled yet, and if he pays 2d. or 3d. above me I +shall have to turn my books over again and pay that additional. I +have always been the second last in settling, just in order that I +might see what my neighbours were to pay. One year I settled +before Hay & Co.'s people, and they paid 2d. a gallon on the livers +above me. I paid that up on the next year's livers, and lost a £10 +note on the transaction. + +15,106. Do you find the fishermen a difficult people to deal +with?-Exceedingly. + +15,107. Do they make many inquiries as to the prices at which you +have sold the fish, or ask to see your accounts?-No. They begin +to understand about the end of the season what the price is to be +which they are to get. As a general rule we tell them that they +will get what other people are getting, and they will hear in time +enough; but they never think of asking what I am getting for the +fish myself. The Faroe fishers are the only people who would be +disposed to be troublesome in that way, because they are entitled +to one half of the proceeds of the fishing. + +15,108. Have you anything to do with the Faroe fishing?-I have +one vessel there; but I don't supply the men with goods. Messrs. +Hay or Mr. Leask have been the agents for that; and I merely +interpone my security, and pay cash for the goods, without a +penny of profit upon them. + +15,109. Do you give security to Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask for the +advances which they make to your fishermen?-Yes; they are +debited to me. + +15,110. Are the fishermen aware that such security is given and +that they can get advances at these shops?-Yes. Of course I +speak to one of Mr. Leask's men, and tell him that they are not +to advance the men beyond a certain amount, for fear of them +going over the line. + +15,111. Do you get no commission upon their transactions at these +shops?-Not one farthing. + +15,112. Do the fishermen in the Faroe trade require any exhibition +of the bills of sale?-I do not know. I never was asked to exhibit +my bills of sale; but they know exactly what the prices are. There +are people going back and forward to Leith who know exactly +what we get. + +15,113. Are the fish sold by public sale in Leith?-No. + +15,114. Are they sold by commission agents there?-We have +often to sell them direct. It is a miserable thing to put them into a +commission agent's hands. We try to make the best bargain we +can with the middle-men from Glasgow or Belfast. + +15,115. Is there a traveller who comes round and purchases the +fish in Shetland?-They very often come round for that purpose. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM SIEVWRIGHT, examined. + +15,116. You are a solicitor in Lerwick?-I am. + +15,117. Do you act as factor on the property of Mrs. Budge, +Seafield?-Yes; I have been so for about two years, or something +like that. + +15,118. [Shown letter from witness to William Stewart, +Kirkabister, dated 22d November 1870, quoted in Stewart's +evidence, question 8917]-Did you write that letter?-Yes. + +15,119. Have you anything to say with regard to it?-All I have to +say is, that the Thomas Williamson mentioned in the letter had +been carrying on a small business at Seafield, and the tenants +had taken a prejudice against him, and did not wish to do any +business with him; the result of which was that he had resolved, +or pretty well resolved, to leave the place, and the business +premises were likely to be shut up in consequence. Before +writing the letter, I had seen several of the tenants there, and +particularly William Stewart, who was a leading man among them, +and had endeavoured to overcome that prejudice. I told them that +Mrs. Budge expected that they would, in her interest, fish to the +tenant of the business premises upon equal terms-that is to say, if +they could arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with any +other body, but not otherwise. They seemed to acquiesce in that, +or at any rate did not take any objection to it after I had explained +the matter to them; and I believe they have been thoroughly +satisfied with their transactions. I may explain further, that most +of these tenants, or at least many of them, were in debt, some +of them to a large extent, for land rent; and I thought it only +reasonable that if they could assist the proprietor, they should do +so. There was no compulsion, in the proper sense of the word. +The tenants understood quite well that it was merely if they could +make a bargain as favourable with Williamson as with any other +body that they were to do that. + +15,120. Did Williamson become responsible to the proprietor for +the rent?-No. + +15,121. Has it been paid through him?-I don't think so. Perhaps +a few of the tenants have paid it through [Page 383] him, but he +certainly was not responsible for it in any way. At any rate, I did +not make him bound. + +15,122. Do the tenants ever pay their rents directly to you?-Yes. +Occasionally they hand them in to Mrs. Budge, who sends the +money to me; but the settlements are all made by me. + +15,123. How many tenants are there on that property?-I think +altogether there are 25 or 26. + +15,124. Have they any leases?-No; they are just yearly tenants. +The proprietor was very anxious to give them leases, but she is +only a liferenter herself, and she cannot give them the warrandice +they should have. + +15,125. How many of these tenants are fishermen?-I think there +should be perhaps 15 or 16 of them, but I cannot be positive as to +that. I believe Williamson has two boats manned from among +them. + +15,126. Has he also a shop?-Yes, a small shop. + +15,127. And I suppose the trade of the shop depends on his +securing a certain number of fishermen for his boats?-Yes, +and on the good-will of the tenants there. + +15,128. But if the tenants are in debt, are they not virtually obliged +to deal at his shop?-I don't think so. + +15,129. Do you think it probable that they could get credit +anywhere else?-I certainly think so; and I think Williamson +himself is in a position to go a great way in giving them credit. + +15,130. Are you aware that Williamson commenced business with +a very small capital?-I don't think he could have had much +means; but I believe he has paid his fishermen in cash this season. + +15,131. You mean that he has paid in cash any balances that were +due?-I don't know that there were many balances due. I think +the fishermen would not deal much with him, and he actually paid +for the fish almost wholly in cash. I know that I sent him about +£120 for the purpose. + +15,132. Then, notwithstanding the obligation to fish that is laid on +the tenants, Williamson has not been able to make a good business +there?-I don't think he has, because, notwithstanding that the +proprietor wished the tenants to deal with him as much as possible, +they have not, in point of fact, done so more than they could +possibly avoid. He is nearer to them, and they might get some +things more conveniently from him than anywhere else. I am +anxious to make it appear that I explained thoroughly to them, that +if they could not arrange with him upon as favourable terms as +with another, they were quite at liberty to do as they chose. + +15,133. Is the letter I have shown you the only one that has passed +on the subject of fishing with Stewart or any of the tenants on that +estate?-The only one; and I have never had any complaints since +it was written. + +15,134. Have you had any experience in the management of +property in other parts of Shetland?-Not a large experience, but +I have a pretty good notion of the manner in which it is managed. + +15,135. Can you say whether it is common for rents to be paid +through the fish-merchant?-I believe it is rather common that the +fish-merchant becomes responsible for the rents. The proprietor +says to him, 'You have my fishermen, and you must pay their +rents,' or something like that. + +15,136. Do you know that, in point of fact, it is usual for a +fish-curer to draw a cheque in favour of the proprietor for the +rents of a large number of the fishermen employed by him?-I +have seen it done. There is a small property in Delting that I have +managed, where a number of the rents have been paid in that way; +but there was no arrangement whatever that the fish-curer should +pay the rents: they just came through him. I have got perhaps £50 +at a time in that way. + +15,137. You are also a bank agent?-Yes. + +15,138. Has that practice not come within your knowledge as a +bank agent?-I cannot say that it has. + +15,139. You have not been long in that position?-Not long. +Besides, I could not be sure that cheques presented were for that +purpose. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT MULLAY, examined. + +15,140. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-Yes, to a +small extent. + +15,141. Have you any other business?-I have a retail shop here. + +15,142. How many boats had you employed in the line-fishing last +year?-Seven. + +15,143. You have a fishing station at Ireland, in Dunrossness, on +the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes. I pay rent to him +for the beach and booth. + +15,144. Is your station the only place in that neighbourhood where +fish can be landed and dried?-There is no other place in that bay +where fish can be cured; there is no other beach than the one I +have. + +15,145. Are the tenants on that part of the Simbister estate under +any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever. + +15,146. Do they, in point of fact, all fish for you?-Yes; all those +who fish out of that bay. + +15,147. Is that because there is no other beach?-I suppose there is +no other cause for it. + +15,148. Would it be a misstatement to say that the Simbister +tenants in that quarter are obliged, by the terms of their tenure, to +fish for you and for Mr. John Robertson, jun.?-Yes. They are +not bound, because there are some of them who fish for me in one +year, and perhaps they are at the farthest end of Shetland the next, +and then they may come back to me again. + +15,149. Do you keep a shop at the fishing station?-I keep nothing +there except a supply of fishing lines and hooks. + +15,150. Do any of the fishermen there get their supplies from your +shop in Lerwick?-They get what they want. + +15,151. Do they keep an account with you, which is settled at the +annual settling time?-Yes; but many of them never get one penny +from me except in the shape of cash. There must be an account +for them in my books when settling with them, and when the +fishing is divided between them and their partners; but many of +them have no individual account for out-takes. + +15,152. Have you any interest in the Faroe fishing?-None +whatever. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, jun., examined. + +15,153. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-I am. I +have a retail shop here, and a fishing station at Spiggie on the +property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister. + +15,154. Are the tenants in the neighbourhood of that station under +any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever. If such a +statement was made to you, it was entirely wrong. I am quite sure +the tenants there do not hold their land under any such condition. + +15,155. Do many of Mr. Bruce's tenants fish for you, in point of +fact?-I think I had ten boats at Spiggie last year-three men in +each boat. + +15,156. Were these men mostly from Mr. Bruce's lands?-Almost +entirely, I should say. + +15,157. Was that because these lands are adjacent to your fishing +station?-I believe that is the principal reason why they fished for +me. + +15,158. Might these men have cured their own fish, or fished for +any other merchant, if they had chosen?-Yes. + +15,159. Was there any local circumstance that prevented them +from doing so?-They could not have cured their own fish in that +neighbourhood, because the beach was mine. I possessed it and +there is no other beach within several miles. + +15,160. Therefore the fishermen residing in that particular place, +may be bound to a particular fish-curer by the physical character +of the country as well as by a legal obligation?-I believe that is +so. That is the only way [Page 384] in which I can account for the +men fishing at my station. + +15,161. You have certain natural advantages at your station?- +Yes; and I presume it is the same in many other cases. At the +same time, I am willing to believe that if the men had had a choice +of stations, they would just as soon have fished for me as for any +other person in that neighbourhood. I settled with them at the end +of the year, and paid them according to the current price. + +15,162. You did not pay them above it?-No. + +15,163. I believe there are some merchants in your neighbourhood +who pay considerably above the current price?-They are not +exactly in my neighbourhood, but there are such merchants within +a dozen miles. + +15,164. How do you account for them being able to do so?-I am +not able to account for the proceedings of these gentlemen; they +always appear to me to be inexplicable. + +15,165. Could you not afford to pay at the price which they +give?-No, not unless I worked for nothing. + +15,166. Could you not do it if you were selling to the retail dealers +direct?-I don't think I could: that could not be done, as a general +rule. + +15,167. Do you sell your fish to wholesale merchants?- +Generally; I may say always. + +15,168. Do you sell them in one lot at the end of the season?- +Generally in one lot. + +15,169. Do most of the men run accounts with you for supplies +during the fishing season?-A few of them do. + +15,170. Have you a store there for that purpose?-I have a station +there, and during the summer season I keep some fishing materials +at it, such as lines and hooks, and things of that sort. These are the +only materials I am expected to supply them with. + +15,171. Do you not supply them with meal and other stores?-It is +expected that I will supply them with them too, if they ask for +them; but the men generally in that neighbourhood are very well +off, and they can get their supplies from other merchants, and in +fact they do so. + +15,172. Do many of them run accounts with you in Lerwick for +supplies?-The only article I supply them with is meal, and it is +principally the poorer men who get it from me; that is, men who +are a little behind, and who would not get credit so readily as some +of their neighbours. + +15,173. Are these accounts for meal settled at the annual +settlement in the usual way?-Yes. + +15,174. Have you any other fishings, except at Spiggie?-I have a +station at Levenwick also. I have not many boats there. I think +there were about half a dozen boats fishing for me last season. + +15,175. Have you a store there for supplying the fishermen?-I +have, during the summer season, for supplying lines and hooks +and other fishing materials. I have also a store there for the sale of +general goods. + +15,176. Is that a permanent store?-It has been permanent for the +last twelve months. + +15,177. Do the men keep accounts there when they want goods on +credit, and settle for them at the end of the season?-Yes; but my +instructions to my factor are, to give as little as possible, except +fishing materials and some of the absolute necessaries of life, on +credit. + +15,178. You are the successor to the business of Mr. Robert +Mouat?-Yes, and his predecessor too. + +15,179. Were you trustee on his sequestrated estate?-No; it was +Mr. William Robertson. + +15,180. Did Mouat, during the last two years of his tack, call the +tenants together and desire them to fish for you?-No. In October +or November 1870 he came and told me he was going to give up +the fishing, because he had so many other kinds of business, and +he could not look after them all quite well; and he said he would +give me the run of the store at Levenwick and the beach during the +last two years of his tack that remained. I agreed to take it, and +came down to the place. He was there at the time, and he invited a +number of the men to wait upon him, and told them what he had +resolved to do, and recommended that they should fish for me. +Some of the men agreed to do so, and others said they preferred +having their freedom to do what they liked; and they did so. + +15,181. Did many of the fishermen who had been in Mouat's +employment continue to fish for you when you took up that +station?-I made up about five or six boats last year out of his +men,-perhaps twenty men. + +15,182. Did you find that these men were in great indebtedness?- +I found that there were some of them very poor and ill-off, much +worse than I would like to find them. + +15,183. Did you take over any part of the stock which Mouat had +in his shop there?-Yes, I bought the stuff that remained in his +shop at the Moul. + +15,184. Did you pay a full price for that?-Yes; it was sold at a +valuation, at which he and I were present. + +15,185. What was the quality of the stock?-It consisted +principally of lines and some drapery goods. The quality of the +goods that I bought was very fair. Some of them had been very +recently brought in, but others had lain in the shop for a good +while. These articles I generally refused to take. + +15,186. Had you to take over any meal?-No; there was not an +ounce in the shop. + +15,187. Were there any articles of food of any kind?-No. + +15,188. Then what you took over was entirely soft goods and +fishing materials?-Yes. + +15,189. Have you any knowledge as to the quality and prices of +the provisions which had been sold in his shop?-No; that did not +come within my knowledge at all. + +15,190. Have you understood from the people in the +neighbourhood whom you have since employed, that the +quality was very inferior and the price high?-I have heard +such complaints. + +15,191. I suppose the people express themselves well pleased with +the change that has been made?-I heard of nothing else. + +15,192. Was that the only transaction you had with Mouat or with +the trustee on his estate with regard to the shop business?-Ever +since Mouat became tacksman of that property, I have had some +dealings with him every year in the purchase of fish and herrings. + +15,193. But had you any other transaction with him in +connection with him leaving the property and you taking over +the fishermen?-No; nothing beyond what I have stated. + +15,194. Are you engaged in the herring fishing?-Yes. + +15,195. How many vessels have you employed in it?-I would +have perhaps twenty boats from Levenwick and Lerwick going to +the herring fishing for about six weeks, commencing on 12th +August, and ending about the end of September. + +15,196. What is the nature of the bargain which you make with the +crews of these boats?-It is understood that I am to pay the prices +that are generally paid in Shetland for herrings. Prior to 1869 the +price I paid to my men was generally regulated by the price paid +by Mr. Methuen, fish-curer, Leith, who is the largest fish-curer in +Scotland. He, up to that time, had boats from Mr. Bruce of Sand +Lodge. Mr. Bruce, once a year, made a bargain with Mr. Methuen, +and generally brought him to a very high figure, and my fishermen +expected that I was to pay the same price that Mr. Methuen did. +They considered that when Mr. Methuen, the greatest fish-curer in +Scotland, was able to give certain price to his men, they ought to +get the same and that was the price I always paid until three years +ago. Since then the herring fishing has been almost a blank; it has +been a source of great loss. + +15,197. At that time did you become bound to pay them only the +current price in Shetland?-There was no bargain made about that. +In fact the fishing is so very uncertain, that it is just a matter of +circumstances whether we speak about prices or not. Last year, for +instance, I had to prepare for about twenty boats fishing, and, I +think I did not get thirty crans of herrings altogether. + +[Page 385] + +15,198. You did not fix a price per cran at the beginning of the +season?-No. + +15,199. Are the men who are engaged in the herring fishing the +same men who fish for ling during the summer months?-Yes. + +15,200. Are the boats different?-Frequently they are the same +boats. + +15,201. Is the settlement made at the same time as the settlement +for the ling fishing?-Yes. + +15,202. Is there any other point you desire to mention in +connection with this inquiry?-No. The whole question seems +to be very well ventilated, and I have nothing to add. + +15,203. Would you have any objection to a system of weekly or +fortnightly payments for the fish that are delivered to you?-I +would have no objection to that if it were practicable, but I think +there are difficulties in the way which make it practically +impossible. + +15,204. Would these difficulties not be removed, or greatly +reduced, if the weekly or fortnightly payment were only a portion +of the price, or a minimum price of say 5s. 6d. per cwt. for ling, +leaving the balance of the price of the fish to the end of the season, +and to pay it then?-I don't think that system would work very +well. It would entail a great amount of trouble and I cannot see +how it could be carried out. + +15,205. Would there be any trouble, except keeping cash at the +stations and handing it to the fishermen at short intervals?-That +would be one great source of trouble. + +15,206. Would there be any other?-The difficulty of introducing +such a system appears to me to be this, that the poor men would +not be able to get on in January and February before the fishing +begins, unless they obtained advances of some kind from the +merchants. If a system of ready-money payments were introduced, +the fish being paid for only when they were delivered in the month +of June, then the men would have some difficulty in maintaining +themselves in the winter and spring. + +15,207. No doubt there might be some hardship or difficulty at +first, but after one or two seasons do you not think the men would +have learned to provide for that part of the season?-There are +certain classes of men that I don't see how such a system could +work with at all. + +15,208. Could these men not find a certain provision in more +application to the winter fishing?-There are some localities where +the winter fishing is impracticable. The boats cannot be hauled up +and down, so that really there are no fish got except in a few days +of exceptionally fine weather. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER GARRIOCK, examined. + +15,209. Are you a merchant in Lerwick?-I am an agent in +Lerwick. + +15,210. Do you keep a shop?-No; but I keep fishing materials for +my men, and for general sale. + +15,211. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, only in the +Faroe fishing. I have three vessels employed in it. + +15,212. Where are the men employed in these vessels supplied +with their materials and fishing supplies?-Their fishing materials +are got from me, and I generally appoint them to get their other +materials from Hay & Co., or R. & C. Robertson, or Harrison & +Sons. There are four or five individuals in Lerwick that I give +them their option to get their materials from. + +15,213. Do you guarantee these gentlemen for the advances they +give to your men?-Yes; at least of late I have had to do it. + +15,214. Do you settle with the merchants before settling with the +fishermen?-No, not before. The men get their accounts from +them, and we retain the amount. + +15,215. Do you receive a commission upon the advances made by +the merchants?-Occasionally. + +15,216. Do you not always do so?-No. Some of them don't agree +to give it; there is no arrangement about that. + +15,217. Do those who give it get a reference?-They do not. The +men have very often to go to them. + +15,218. But you give them the option only to go to certain parties +whom you name?-Yes. If they begin to deal with one party, they +must deal with the same party during the season, because of the +difficulty of keeping accounts with the various parties in the town. + +15,219. You name a certain number of merchants with whom they +must deal?-Yes; and they are generally the most respectable +people in Lerwick, where they can get their supplies most +moderately. But the men were naming any one themselves with +whom they wished to deal, they would have the same option to +deal with him, only they must deal with the same individual for the +season. + +15,220. Would you give a similar guarantee to a merchant whom +the men named themselves?-Yes. + +15,221. Do you do that in order that the families of the men may +be +able to live during the fishing season-Yes. + +15,222. But it is only in the event of a man requiring these +advances that you give such a guarantee, or require them to go +to such a shop?-They all require it. + +15,223. Are none of them able to live upon their own resources?- +Plenty of them; but still they come for their supplies. There was +an instance of that occurred with me only eight days past on +Saturday. A man who had been in my employment for two or +three years had been engaged two or three weeks before to go to +the fishing for the rising season, and he came on Saturday and +asked for supplies. I asked him where he wished them from, and +he said Hay & Co.'s, and I gave him an order to go there. After +giving it to him, he came and asked me for some cash. I told him +thought it was rather early to come and ask for cash for the rising +season, and that he could hardly have spent the money he had got +from me at settlement. After a good deal of pressure, he said that +about the time he had settled with me he had got some money +from his son, and he had added it to the money he had from me, +and had put it into the bank, and he did not like to draw it out +again. Therefore it is not altogether from necessity that they get +these supplies. + +15,224. But they all take them as a matter of course?-Yes. There +are some men who always get them, and the other men would +think they were not so well treated if they did not get them also. + +15,225. Then the necessity of making these advances to the men is +one of the elements which the merchant must take into account in +making his arrangements for the season?-To some extent it must +be. + +15,226. Is it not an element in fixing the price which the men are +to +get, that the merchant has to make advances of that description?- +Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned. + +15,227. In the Faroe trade do the men get exactly the same price +for their fish which the merchant realizes?-Yes, and something +more. + +15,228. Why do you give more?-Just because we are obliged to +do it. This year I am paying more than I can get. I am bound to +pay the currency, as it is called; and if the currency is higher than I +realize for the fish, I am still bound to pay it. + +15,229. Have you not been able to sell up to the current price this +year?-No. I did not accept the price which was offered to me at +one time, thinking the fish would be higher, but instead of being +higher they fell. I did not sell until after the men were settled with. + +15,230. Are you agent or owner of the fishing smack 'Gondola'?- +Yes. + +15,231 What was the amount of earnings of the men employed in +that vessel last season?-The men's earnings in 1871 were about +£19 or £20, on an average, for the season. + +15,232. Was that the whole proceeds that were paid from the catch +of the 'Gondola'?-Yes. + +15,233. Was that the sum of which the men received payment after +the necessary deductions?-The sum which each man receives +varies according to his position [Page 386] in the vessel. The +master received £42, 11s. 3d.; the mate received £25, 8s. 10d.; one +man received £21, 6s., and the others ran from that to £19, 13s. +6d., if they were there the whole season, according to the amount +of their score-money. + +15,234. What was the amount credited to each sharesman for the +value of his share of the fish?-It varied from £19, 13s. 6d. to +about £21, 6s. for an ordinary sharesman. The score-money makes +a little difference between one sharesman and another. + +15,235. What was the amount of the share apart from the +score-money?-It was £14, 4s. 7d. for the Faroe fishing. That +was for the period when they were paid by shares; but there was +a part of the season when they were paid by wages, when they +were upon an Iceland voyage. + +15,236. What was the number of the crew?-There were fourteen +during the Faroe fishing. Of these, nine were full sharesmen, and +the others varied from threequarters to half a share. There were +121/4 shares altogether, and the whole proceeds of the fishing +would be divided by that. + +15,237. What was the total take of fish?-20 tons 6 cwt. 3 qrs. 21 +lbs. + +15,238. Was that a fair average fishing for the season?-No, it was +rather a poor season. I daresay it was fully an average for last +year; but it was a poor fishing, taking other years into account. We +would not consider it a paying season. + +15,239. Who classes the quality of the fish?-It is generally the +merchant. We usually send the first-class fish to Spain, and the +other cod go to the home market. + +15,240. You charge 52s. 6d. as the cost price for curing. Is that by +arrangement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No. + +15,241. Is it rounded upon an estimate of the actual expense of +curing for the year?-We cannot ascertain every particular with +regard to the expense of curing the fish and bringing them into +market; but I am certain we are charging under the rate which it +actually costs us, including wages, salt, material, and a great many +other things that have to be embraced in it. We have often to +include coffee and other things supplied to the women at the +beach. + +15,242. Are the people employed in your curing establishment +paid +by weekly wages or by fees for the season?-They are not paid in +that way at all. Here [showing in book] is the account of a man, +Arthur Leask, who employs some women from the mainland. I +make a contract with him for the curing of the fish. He generally +gives an order to the women, and I pay them what is contained in +that order. + +15,243. Is that the way in which most of your curing business is +managed?-Yes. + +15,244. Do you cure at the island of Linga?-Yes. Here [showing] +is another account with people who have been curing for me for a +number of years. I entered into the contract first with Laurence +Thomson; he died and left the farm, and then John Thomson took +it, and now Miss Thomson has it. + +15,245. Is the work all done in contract with them?-Yes. + +15,246. Do they give orders to their employés in the same way +as Leask?-I think they manage it themselves, both there and at +Linga, with the exception of the washing. + +15,247. Do you pay them in cash?-Yes. + +15,248. Have you any transactions with the people employed by +them?-No. + +15,249. Had they an account for goods in any shop?-Not so far as +I am aware. + +15,250. In what way are the people paid whom Leask sends to you +with orders?-They are paid in cash altogether. + +15,251. Have you a written agreement with your Faroe fishers?- +Yes; I have a separate one for each smack every year. + +15,252. Do you stipulate in that agreement what deductions are to +be made?-Yes; at least that is done generally. The deductions, +including the expenses of curing and bringing the fish to market, +and master's and mate's fees, score-money, and cost of bait, are +made from the gross proceeds, and then the balance is divided into +two-one half going to the men, and the other to the owners. + +15,253. Is there not a deduction for commission?-No; that is +generally just an understanding. + +15,254. What is that understanding?-That a commission is to +be charged. In the account I have produced for the 'Gondola' +commission and guarantee are charged at 5 per cent., + +15,255. Do the men at settlement see, or desire to see, the bills of +sale?-They have never done so in any case. + +15,256. Do they sometimes complain that they did not see them, +or make any complaints about the price of the fish?-They are +always grumbling; but they never made any direct complaint to +me on the subject. In order to save a good deal of that trouble, the +North Sea Fishing Co. have produced their accounts, but very +frequently they have begun to settle with their fishermen at the +currency before the accounts were ready. + +15,257. Do the company produce their bills of sale to the men?- +They are bound to do it if the men call for them. + +15,258. Are you connected with that company?-I am a director of +it. Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co., is the agent. + +15,259. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the fishermen +generally see the bills of sale of that company?-I cannot tell. +That is a matter which is left in the hands of Mr. Irvine. + +15,260. Are the men frequently in debt to you at the +commencement of the fishing season?-No. There were +some men who left me in debt last year, and they have gone +elsewhere,-I don't know where. In fact I would rather get clear +of a man who is in debt, and take my chance of getting my debt +from him afterwards, than employ him again, unless he was a very +good man. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, examined. + +15,261. Are you a provision merchant in Lerwick?-I am. I have +been in business for eleven years. + +15,262. Do you deal in anything else but provisions?-Nothing of +any consequence. Sometimes I get a little cottons, or small wares +as we call them. + +15,263. Do you sometimes purchase soft goods over the +counter?-I used to do it; but I have not done so for the last +twelve or eighteen months. + +15,264. Why did you give it up at that time?-There were +several reasons for it. I did not think it was a nice thing to do; +and sometimes it was more bother than it was all worth. + +15,265. You probably found your other business increasing?-It +was not for that reason that I gave it up. I got more humbug by it +than all the good it was. + +15,266. How were you humbugged by it?-I would sometimes +take goods in that had perhaps been stolen, and I lost them +altogether. It was a kind of broker's business that I did. + +15,267. Did you do a good deal of that business at one time?-Not +much. + +15,268. But still you were a broker to some extent?-It was not +worth speaking of. + +15,269. What kind of goods were you in the habit of getting in that +way?-Various sorts of goods, such as wearing apparel. There +was nothing else that I recollect of particularly just now. + +15,270. Did you sometimes get cottons and other goods that were +not made up into wearing apparel?-Not that I remember. + +15,271. I thought you said you had dealt to some extent in cottons +and calicoes?-I got them from the south along with my other +goods. + +15,272. Did you sometimes lay in a small stock of these?-Yes. + +15,273. Have you never purchased any cotton, or [Page 387] +calicoes, or dress stuffs not made up, from people at your +counter?-I cannot recollect just now. I had a small book in +which I entered these purchases. + +15,274. Have you got that book with you?-I have not seen it for +the last six months. + +15,275. You will go for that book, and show it to me here?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, LAURENCE THOMPSON, examined. + +15,276. Are you a seaman in Lerwick?-I am. + +15,277. Have you gone frequently on sealing and whaling voyages +from this port?-Yes. + +15,278. By what agent, have you been engaged?-I have gone +from them all. + +15,279. Did you have an account for outfit and supplies from the +agent who engaged you every time you went?-Yes. + +15,280. When did you go first?-In 1858. + +15,281. Did you go as a green hand then?-Yes. + +15,282. Where did you get your outfit?-From Mr. Leask. + +15,283. Did you settle for it at the end of the voyage?-Yes. + +15,284. Did you manage to pay it up the first year?-Yes; and I +had 5s. clear. + +15,285. Did you ask on that occasion for payment of part of your +earnings in cash?-Yes; when I came home I got the 5s. which I +had clear. I had had all the rest in goods. + +15,286. Did you not want to let part of the goods stand on an +account?-No. + +15,287. You wanted to pay it all up and to be clear?-Yes. + +15,288. Did you continue to engage with Mr. Leask for some years +after that?-For two years; and then I went to Mr. Tait. + +15,289. Why did you go to him then?-Partly because I wanted a +longer voyage; I wanted to go to Davis Straits. + +15,290. Had Mr. Leask no ships going the long voyage that +year?-Yes. + +15,291. Could you not have got a berth from him?-Yes, if I had +asked for it. + +15,292. Why did you not ask for it?-I did not just incline. + +15,293. Why did you not incline?-I had no particular reason for +it. + +15,294. Had you run up an account with Mr. Leask the year +before?-Yes. + +15,295. Had you left him clear?-Yes; and I had got £2 in cash. + +15,296. Had you a second payment of oil-money to get that +year?-Yes. + +15,297. Did you get payment of that in money?-Yes. + +15,298. Was that before or after you had engaged with Mr. Tait?- +It was before. + +15,299. How long did you continue with Mr. Tait?-I went five +voyages with him. + +15,300. Did you get all your supplies during that time from him?- +Yes, whatever I asked or wanted. + +15,301. Did you always get your balances paid to you in cash?- +Yes. + +15,302. Had you no difficulty in getting that?-No; whenever I +asked them I always got them. + +15,303. Were you not sometimes asked to take them in goods?- +No. They would ask you if you wanted anything, but that was all; +and I got my things as good there as at any other place. + +15,304. Had you not, in one of these years, to ask more than once +for the money?-No, not to my recollection. If I asked for the +money I always got it. + +15,305. Was it paid to you in Mr. Tait's office beside the shop?- +Yes. I went through the shop into the office, and Mr. Tait settled +with me there. + +15,306. Did he or any of his people always ask you if you wanted +any goods when you went to get your settlement?-No, he did not +ask me; but sometimes they would ask me if I wanted anything +when I came out from settlement. We could either take it or leave +it, any way we liked. + +15,307. In some of these years, were there a great number of men +going to Greenland?-Yes. + +15,308. Were there sometimes more than there were berths for?- +Yes. + +15,309. But you never lost a berth?-No; whenever I asked it I got +it. + +15,310. Were you not known to the agents to be a good seaman, +and were you not always on good terms with them?-I never was +on bad terms with them, and I always got a berth when I wanted it. + +15,311. But you always had an account with your agent?-Yes. + +15,312. And a good lot of supplies?-Sometimes not very much, +but sometimes I had a good lot. + +15,313. Do you think the fact of your having a pretty large account +had anything to do with your always getting a berth?-I don't +think it. Sometimes I would have a good account with one agent, +and go to another agent and get a ship from him. + +15,314. Did you not always take your supplies principally from +the agent with whom you were engaging for the year?-Yes, +principally. + +15,315. You were five years with Mr. Tait; that would be down to +1866: who did you go to then?-I went back to Mr. Leask. + +15,316. Have you been engaged with him ever since?-No; I was +with Mr. Tulloch in 1868. + +15,317. Why did you leave Mr. Leask at that time?-I don't know. + The ship was not in that I was going with, and I just shipped in +another one. + +15,318. Did you take your supplies from Mr. Tulloch that year?- +Yes, whatever small things I wanted. + +15,319. Had you been quite clear with Mr. Leask the year before, +and got payment of your balance in money?-Yes. I got paid in +the Custom House that year. + +15,320. Was the amount of your account at Mr. Leask's shop +deducted when they paid you at the Custom House?-Yes. + +15,321. Then it was merely the balance that was paid to you +there?-No; I got the full amount, and paid them back. + +15,322. Did you go down to the shop and pay them back there?- +Yes. + +15,323. Had you seen your account at the shop before?-Yes. + +15,324. Is that the way in which you have been settled with ever +since?-Yes. + +15,325. You see your account beforehand, and then go up to the +Custom House, get payment of the cash, and then you bring down +the money and settle your account?-Yes. + +15,326. When you left the shop after seeing your account and went +up to the Custom House, were you told to come back and pay your +account the same day?-Yes. + +15,327. You were always reminded of that?-Yes. + +15,328. And when you came back to pay your account, were you +asked if you wanted any more goods?-No. I did not buy anything +unless I chose. + +15,329. Do you generally get your last payment of oil-money in +cash, or in goods?-In cash; but if I want them, I can get it in +goods. + +15,330. Do you sometimes want it in goods?-Sometimes we may +take some trifling things on it if we want them, but if not we get it +all in money. + +15,331. Have you any reason to complain of having to go to the +Custom House and then to go down to the shop and pay your +money?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, recalled. + +15,332. You have now produced to me the book containing +your transactions in the brokery line: are all [Page 388] your +transactions in that business entered there?-Yes, so far as I know. + +15,333. These transactions do not appear to have amounted, on +the whole, to more than two or three per month on an average?- +There might be that in some months, but in other months there +would be nothing. It was a rare case when I bought anything in +that way at all; it was merely when anything was brought to me +that I thought worth buying. + +15,334. Were these articles paid for in cash or in provisions?- +In cash first, and then the people might spend it in provisions +afterwards. I have seen me get all the money back again before +they went out. + +15,335. Have you known many instances of knitters bringing +goods or articles of dress to you and selling them?-I never +questioned them about that. If they came with an article, I asked +their name and the price, but that was all. I have also asked them +if they were sure it was not stolen; I was very particular about that. + +15,336. Have they ever told you that the goods they were selling +were goods that they had got for knitting?-I recollect them saying +once or twice that they had taken them for their hosiery, but they +took money from me when I bought the goods from them. + +15,337. But they told you they had got these goods for hosiery?- +They had perhaps got them out of certain shops; but I believe they +had generally got them on credit, until they had something made +which would pay for them. + +15,338. Were these women employed in knitting?-Yes; but there +were only one or two cases of that kind. + +15,339. But you have known two or three cases in which women, +known to you to be knitters, came with goods in that way and sold +them?-Yes, they would say they had got them from so and so; but +I don't recollect any particular party. + +15,340. Can you point to any of these transactions in the book?- +No; I don't recollect whether the articles that were entered in the +book were got from knitters or from other parties. Sometimes they +wanted cash for their goods, because they could not get cash at the +shop where they were dealing. + +15,341. But, in these circumstances, the people who were refused +the cash got the goods, as you understood at the time?-Yes, I +understood so. + +15,342. And they took the goods, and brought them to you and got +the cash?-Yes. + +15,343. Did you know that these goods were got at a shop where +hosiery was taken?-I cannot tell; I never asked about that. They +may have said so but perhaps that might have been false. + +15,344. Did they give the name of any party from whom they had +got the goods?-No; they just said they had got the goods when +they could not get the cash. + +15,345. May that have been said half a dozen times?-Not so +many. I only recollect hearing of it once or twice. + +15,346. Do you say that it has not happened half a dozen times in +the ten or eleven years that you have been in business?-I don't +recollect it happening so often as that. I just recollect hearing it +spoke about. + +15,347. Do people sometimes come to you yet offering articles for +sale, although you have given up that part of your business?-Yes, +occasionally; but not so much now as before I gave it up. + +15,348. Do you not sometimes take them still?-I don't think I +have taken any since the 1st entry in the book on April 15, 1870. + +15,349. Are you quite sure that you have never bought any article +at all in your shop since then?-Not that I recollect. + +15,350. Would you be likely to forget if you had done it?-I don't +know; but I have not done it, so far as my recollection goes. I +have once bought a jacket which I wore myself; but it was from a +friend, a party that I knew, and it was not a thing that I was in the +way of buying. + +15,351. Can you swear that you have not had more than half a +dozen applications, in the whole course of your business, from +women whom you knew or supposed to be knitters, asking you to +give them money or provisions for goods which they had got for +their hosiery?-They never asked provisions for them. If they +wanted provisions, they took them out afterwards; they just asked +for the cash, and I gave them what I thought the article was worth +to me. + +15,352. Do you swear that you have not had more than half a +dozen such applications in the course of your business?-I don't +recollect more than one or two. Of course, I did not ask them +pointedly where they had got the articles, or how they had got +them, except merely that I wished to know that the articles had +not been got in a dishonest way. + +15,353. But I see that a great number of the entries in the book +relate to transactions with females?-Yes. + +15,354. Can you swear that the majority of these women were not +knitters who were in the habit of dealing with hosiery shops, and +who came to you and got cash for the goods which they had got +there?-That might have been so, but I really cannot say. + +15,355. Can you swear that one out of every two of these women +did not come and sell goods to you which she had got in that +way?-She might have got them in that way, but I cannot tell. + +15,356. Were most of the purchases which you made, of new +articles or of old?-The greater part of the things had been worn. + +15,357. Do you think there was any other way in which the +women got these articles, except by getting them from the hosiery +shops?-Certainly. + +15,358. Were there some of them which had been got at the +agents' shops where the women were supplied, while the men +were away at the fishing?-They might have had accounts at these +shops, and got goods there in part payment for the men's wages. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA DALZELL, examined. + + +15,359. Do you live in Scalloway Road, Lerwick?-Yes. + +15,360. Have you been in the habit of knitting and selling your +goods, or have you knitted with your own wool?-I have both +knitted with merchants' wool and with wool of my own. + +15,361. Have you knitted for a long time, and had a great deal +of experience in it?-I have knitted for about thirty-two or +thirty-three years. During that time I have knitted mostly with +my own wool. + +15,362. How have you been paid for your hosiery?-Either in +money or goods. + +15,363. Have you ever been paid altogether in money?-Yes, +often. + +15,364. Is it not the usual way in Lerwick to pay for hosiery in +goods only?-Yes, that is generally the way in which most of them +do. + +15,365. Why has an exception been made in your case?-I don't +think any exception has been made with me. Whenever I brought +a good article to the merchants I asked money for it, and when I +thought it was an inferior article I never thought of asking for +money. + +15,366. Was it generally very fine articles that you knitted?-Not +particularly fine, but I have sometimes knitted very fine articles. + +15,367. Was it only for the very fine articles that you got the +money?-It was only for them that I asked the money. + +15,368. How much was the largest sum you got at one time?-I +think I have got as much as £5 at one time from Mr. Arthur +Laurenson, but I am not sure; his books will show. + +15,369. Did you get that money for one article?-Not for one +article. It was for a number. + +15,370. Was it on an account with him that you got that?-Yes; +but I do not remember the exact sum. + +[Page 389] + +15,371. What did you get it for?-There was a cloak and several +other articles, and the balances upon several shawls which I had +been leaving with him. + +15,372. For what purpose did you get so much money?-I cannot +remember exactly. I had a reason at the time for asking so much, +but I don't remember asking the money when I sold the articles. + +15,373. But you had a special reason for wanting that money?- +Yes. I would rather not mention what it was, unless it is +necessary. + +15,374. Did you tell Mr. Laurenson the reason?-Yes. + +15,375. Did you get all the money that was due to you at that +time?-Yes. I sent a girl who was living in my house at the time +to Mr. Laurenson for the cash, and he sent the balance by her, and +a line along with it to show that he had paid it. + +15,376. Was there not a discount taken off because you had got it +in cash?-There was nothing taken off. + +15,377. What was the next largest sum that you got at any one +time?-I have got £3 at one time from Mr. Robert Linklater. + +15,378. Was there any special reason for that?-I got it for a very +fine cloak which I sold to him. + +15,379. Did you sell it to him for a money price?-I sold it, and +asked the money, and got it from him there and then. + +15,380. Did you ever get as much as that on any other occasion?- +No; but I have often got £2, which is generally considered the +price of a good cloak. + +15,381. Did you sell it to them for that in cash?-Yes. + +15,382. Did you ever get money when you knitted for any +merchant + +15,383. How much did you get then?-I can scarcely remember. +I knitted at one time for Mr. Gilbert Harrison, and I always got +money from him when I asked it, whether it was a large sum or a +small sum. The firm is now Harrison & Sons, but it was before +young Mr. Harrison's time that I got that money. I don't think they +deal in hosiery now; at least I have not dealt with them for a long +time. + +15,384. Have you dealt with any other merchant and got money in +such large sums as that?-I once had a transaction with Mr. Wm. +Johnston, and I asked in money and £1 in goods, and I got it. + +15,385. There was a letter sent to me in which it was stated that +you could tell me a story about a certain merchant in town: do you +know anything about that letter?-No. I was wondering who had +mentioned my name to you. + +15,386. [Shown letter dated 9th January 1872, and signed W. +Linklater.] Do you know that handwriting?-I do not, but I know +what it refers to. It was merely a private thing that I was telling to +another party about having taken some hosiery to a merchant. + +15,387. Do you know the party who writes the letter?-I don't +think I do. + +15,388. What does the letter refer to?-I bought some stockings +from a merchant in Lerwick, and I was selling some shawls to him, +but he did not like to take hosiery in return for his stockings. He +said he would take one half money and one half shawls, and I went +home, and I think it was either 20s. or 30s. that I got from my +husband to pay one half of the price. + +15,389. What quantity of hosiery had you bought?-I think it was +rather more than £2 worth. + +15,390. Was that for your own family?-No. It was for a +party who had sent to me for some hosiery, and I went to that +merchant's shop for it. + +15,391. Do you sometimes deal in hosiery yourself?-I sometimes +send work south, but I oftener sell it here. It is a long time since +that affair happened; and I think the price came to nearly £3, but I +don't remember the amount. + +15,392. How long ago was it?-Perhaps 12 years ago, or perhaps +not so much. + +15,393. Was it the practice at that time, as it is now, to pay for +hosiery in goods?-Yes. + +15,394. But when you bought hosiery, was it understood you were +to pay for it in cash?-There was no understanding about it. I just +went to the shop for the stockings, and the merchant agreed to take +one half of the payment in hosiery and the other half in cash, +which I paid to him. I asked his reason for doing that, and he said +that by taking the hosiery it was turning his goods twice over for +only one profit. + +15,395. Was that the only transaction you ever had with that +merchant?-I had plenty of transactions with him before, but +not many after. + +15,396. Do you sometimes buy a great quantity of wool?-Yes; +but it is very difficult to get the best wool. + +15,397. Where do you buy it?-Sometimes from country +merchants, generally from Fetlar. I get some worsted from +William Tulloch, Fetlar. I generally pay 4d. a cut for it. The +finest is 6d. a cut; that is the kind which is used in making fine +shawls and fine cloaks in Shetland. + +15,398. You don't buy it in wool yourself, but in worsted?-Yes. +There are some of the people in Lerwick who buy it in fine wool, +and send it to the country to be spun, before they can get it really +fine. + +15,399. Are they not able to buy the finest worsted in the shops in +Lerwick?-I never could do so. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, GEORGE JAMIESON, examined. + +15,400. Have you a farm at North Roe, on the estate of Busta?- +Yes. I have only had one crop there. + +15,401. Have you been a fisherman?-Yes, all my life. + +15,402. Whom did you fish for?-I have fished for different +people in my time. When I was on Messrs. Hay's property I fished +for them; but they suspended me from fishing, and I would not go +again. They wanted to put me into a boat with some old men. I +would not agree to that, and I lost my fishing for four years. + +15,403. Were you at liberty to fish for whom you pleased?-I was +not. They stopped other fish-curers from taking me during these +four years. + +15,404. How did they do that?-I offered to go for different men, +and they would not take me for fear of Mr. Greig, Messrs. Hay's +factor at North Roe. + +15,405. Are the tenants on the Gossaburgh estate bound to fish for +Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes. I was bound to do so all the time I was +there. One year I agreed with Mr. Anderson, Hillswick, to go to +the fishing for him, and I came with my share of fishing lines, but +he would not give his men a share of lines to make up the fishing +with; and he gave us an old boat that we would not risk our lives +in, and he would not give us any meal. + +15,406. Are you also employed in keeping paupers?-Yes, I +have two old women-one from the parish of Lerwick, and +one from the parish of Northmaven. I have £8 for the one from +Northmaven. I only had 13s. for five months for the pauper who +belonged to Lerwick, but now they have given me 1s. 6d. a week, +which comes to £3, 18s. a year. + +15,407. Who pays you these sums?-Mr. Greig. + +15,408. Does he pay you for both the paupers?-Yes. + +15,409. Does he keep the post office?-No; but they put the +money into his hands, and most of it has been taken out in truck. +He refuses to give me any money except a mere trifle. + +15,410. Whom did you make your bargain about these paupers +with?-One was with Mr. Johnston of Lerwick, and the other +was with Mr. Bruce at Urrafirth. + +15,411. Do you not receive post-office orders or money from Mr. +Bruce or Mr. Johnston for the maintenance of these paupers?-It +comes to Mr. Greig; I cannot say how it comes. + +15,412. Have you ever asked that the money should be sent to you +direct?-No. + +15,413. Is Mr. Greig a member of the parochial board of +Northmaven parish?-I believe he is. + +[Page 390] + +15,414. But he is not a member of the Lerwick parochial board?- +No. + +15,415. How does he happen to pay you money for Lerwick +parish?-They send it to him. + +15,416. Have you ever asked him for the whole of that money in +cash?-No. + +15,417. Why?-Because he seemed that he would not pay it in +cash. + +15,418. How did he seem so?-He said he would not do so, and +that there was no use of him taking the trouble if I would not take +the greater part of it out in truck. + +15,419. When did he say that to you?-He has said it to me +several times. He said it some time after I got the first pauper, +who belonged to Northmaven. That is about two years back. + +15,420. Did he say it to you when you went for the first +payment?-Yes. + +15,421. Had you not run up an account at his shop before the +money was due?-I had not. + +15,422. Did you owe him anything then?-I owed him nothing. +He was my landmaster then, but I did not owe him anything. + +15,423. Is that money paid quarterly?-It is paid monthly here. + +15,424. Did you ever ask Mr. Greig for a monthly payment in +cash?-I did not. + +15,425. Why?-I cannot tell. I suppose it was because we always +had his shop to go to for things that we required for the paupers, +and we thought we need not ask for cash. + +15,426. Were you not always due him as much as the monthly +payment before it became due?-I was not. + +15,427. Were you not due him something?-Yes, a small thing, +but not the whole of the money. + +15,428. Did you ever ask him for the balance in money?-Yes. + +15,429. Did you get it?-Yes. + +15,430. Then, when was it that Mr. Greig said he could not give +it to you in money, but that you must take it out in truck?-Just +when they sent the paupers to me. + +15,431. Are you sure there was not something due to Mr. Greig +then for supplies to the paupers?-There was nothing due. + +15,432. Had you not got any supplies from him for these women +before the first payment was due?-Yes, I got what I wanted +whenever I asked it. + +15,433. Then there was something due to him for that?-Yes; he +never refused to give me anything for them as soon as I came for +it. + +15,434. There was something due to him for these supplies at the +time when the first monthly payment became due?-Yes, but not +to the whole amount of it. + +15,435. Why did you say that you were not due him anything?-I +had to take out the things because I could not get the money. + +15,436. Did you ask him for the balance?-I did. + +15,437. How much was there due to you at that time?-I cannot +tell, because we don't keep accounts. + +15,438. Have you no pass-book?-No. + +15,439. Did Mr. Greig actually say to you that you must take your +payment in truck?-He said we must take part of it in truck, and +that he would not pay it all in money. + +15,440. Did he use the word truck?-Yes. + +15,441. Did he not say that you were to take part of it in goods?- +Goods were the same as truck, and he meant that we were to take +meal or tea, or anything, out of his shop. + +15,442. But what did he actually say?-He said we must take +goods out of his shop for part of the money, because he could not +pay it all in money. He said that the first time I went to him. + +15,443. When did he say it again?-He said it very often. + +15,444. When did he say it last?-This winter. + +15,445. Where did he say it?-In his shop at North Roe. + +15,446. Were you asking for money at that time?-Yes. I asked +him then for the 13s. which came for the pauper from Lerwick, +and he said he would give me that, but that he need not have the +trouble of paying it all down in money. + +15,447. Had you not got a lot of supplies at that time?-No. + +15,448. Do you swear that, when you asked him for the 13s., you +were owing him nothing for supplies?-I was owing him nothing. + +15,449. Had you got any supplies from him before that?-I had got +nothing from him for the pauper from Lerwick. + +15,450. But had you got supplies for your own household?-I had; +but I was due him nothing. + +15,451. Had all the supplies that you had got from Mr. Greig for +other parties up to that time been paid for?-They were all paid +for when I asked for the 13s. + +15,452. Had you any account due at the-shop at that time?-I +cannot tell. I don't think it. There could be nothing due. + +15,453. You said just now that all the supplies you had ever got +were paid for at that time?-They were paid for. + +15,454. And then you say in the next sentence that you cannot say +whether they were paid for or not?-I asked for nothing for this +woman until the came. + +15,455. Do you keep a separate account for every woman that you +have?-I believe we do. + +15,456. Do you know anything about your accounts?-I don't +know a great deal about them. + +15,457. Are you sure that Mr. Greig has told you that you must +take part of your payment for the paupers in goods?-Yes. + +15,458. Is not all that he has done merely to keep part of the +money that was already due to him for supplies which you had +got?-He said he would not pay it all in money. That is all I +have got to say about it. + +15,459. Did he not say that he would not give it all to you in +money because you were due him something for supplies you +had already got?-I was never due Mr. Greig anything. + +15,460. Had you not got supplies from him before he said that?-I +had got supplies, but they never ran up to the sum which I had to +get payment of from him. There was always money due to me. + +15,461. Were you ever due Mr. Greig anything at all?-I was not. + +15,462. Did you not owe him money for the supplies you had +got?-We never sought supplies that would run up to the sum +which we had to get. There was always something in his hand. + +15,463. Do you understand what it is to be due a man money?- +Yes. + +15,464. Do you understand that you are due a man money when +you have got goods from him and not paid for them?-I know that. + +15,465. Were you not due Mr. Greig money when you had got +these goods and had not paid for them?-I was. + +15,466. Was it not at the time when you were due him money for +these supplies that he said he could not give you the money which +was due for the paupers?-He said, first of all, that we were not to +ask all money when we were due him for goods. + +15,467. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing. + +15,468. You have given your evidence in such a manner, that I +cannot allow you any expenses for attending here. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT IRVINE, examined. + +15,469. Are you a broker in Lerwick?-I am a general dealer. I +deal in new as well as second-hand goods. + +[Page 391] + +15,470. Do you deal in provisions?-Very little; mostly in soft +goods. + +15,471. Do you make many purchases of soft goods and wearing +apparel over your counter?-Of wearing apparel, but not of +hosiery. + +15,472. Do you sometimes purchase articles which are not made +up, such as cotton?-Yes, and new articles too. If a man buys an +article that does not fit him, and he comes back to me with it, I +will take it from him and sell him another, or give him the cash. + +15,473. Is this [showing] the book in which you enter all your +transactions?-Yes. + +15,474. Are women in the practice of selling goods to you which +they have got in the shops?-There is very little of that done. I +cannot say that I ever recollect a case of it. + +15,475. Have you many transactions with women?-Very few. It +is mostly men's apparel that I get. + +15,476. I see that in your book most of the entries are in the names +of men?-Yes; I always deal with men, except on rare occasions. + +15,477. Are you the only broker of this kind in Lerwick?-I think I +am the principal one; I have a licence as a broker. + +15,478. Can you say that you have not had any transactions with +women who might have been knitters, and who were disposing of +goods which they had got for their hosiery?-I cannot tell exactly. +Sometimes they may have come in with goods which they had got +in that way, but it is very little of that kind of thing that comes my +way. + +15,479. Have you had many dealings with women whom you knew +to be knitters?-Very few. I don't know that I recollect a single +case. As I have said, it is generally men's work that I get. + +15,480. Do you enter every transaction which you have in the book +which you have produced?-Every one. + +15,481. Is it not possible that some purchases of that kind from +women are not entered in it?-No; I do not want to omit them, +because I want to punish them if they are rogues. + +15,482. But these women will be perfectly honest in making such +sales?-Yes, but I don't think there has ever been such a case in +my business. + +15,483. Have you ever bought any lines from women?-I never +saw one offered; and even if it had been offered, I would not have +bought it or meddled with it at all. + +15,484. Do you know anything at all about the lines?-I don't +recollect ever seeing one in my life because I am not in the way +of it. + +15,485. Have you heard of them?-I have heard of them +repeatedly. + +15,486. I suppose the trade of a broker is not a very flourishing one +in Lerwick?-No, it is very dull; but I am a dealer also, and can +make up things otherwise, which helps me through. + +15,487. Do you know whether that business of buying second-hand +articles is practised by any people who act as hawkers and who +hawk through the country?-I don't know of any people who do +that. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, FRANCIS GIFFORD, examined. + +15,488. Are you a seaman, living in Bressay?-I am. + +15,489. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for a good +many years?-Yes, I went there during the first years of my time, +and then I went south; but afterwards I have been at the sealing +and whaling again. + +15,490. Have you always engaged with some agent in Lerwick?- +Yes, I have engaged with them all except Mr. Tulloch; I never +went out from him. + +15,491. Have you always received payment of your wages on your +return from the voyage?-Yes, for the last three or four years I +have always got my money at the Custom House. + +15,492. Before the regulations were introduced according to which +you were paid at the Custom House, did you settle with the agent +at his shop?-Yes. + +15,493. Did you always get your money on these occasions?-Not +exactly. + +15,494. Had you an account then for outfit and supplies?-Yes. + +15,495. Did you always get the balance that was due?-Yes, I got +it, but very little money. + +15,496. Was that because you had a large account?-I don't know. + +15,497. Do you remember some years ago being engaged by Mr. +Joseph Leask on a voyage to what is called the west-ice?-Yes. + +15,498. Is that in Davis Straits?-No, it is to the northward. + +15,499. Do you remember applying for your wages in money in +that year?-Yes. + +15,500. Did you get it at once whenever you asked for it?-Yes. + +15,501. Did you sail in the same vessel again that year?-Yes; but +Mr. Leask was not for me going in her again, because I had got my +money. If it had not been for the captain I would not have got with +the vessel, but he said he would have me. The vessel was the +'Camperdown,' and that occurred in 1866. + +15,502. What was Mr. Leask's reason for not engaging you for that +vessel?-I don't know. + +15,503. You said it was because you got your money?-I believe +Mr. Leask thought I was for the double voyage, but I was only for +the single voyage; and when I came home after the first voyage I +got settled with him, because at that time I was intending to go +south. I came over and got my money, but before the end of the +week the vessel returned again, going to Davis Straits, and I went +up to see if I could get a chance to go in her. When Captain Bruce +told me to go and get my things and come with the vessel again, +Mr. Leask was wild, and said I should not get a chance. + +15,504. Had you intended at first not to go on the second voyage +that year?-I was anxious to go but I did not know that the Captain +was to put me down for the double voyage. + +15,505. Why was Mr. Leask wild?-I don't know; I suppose it was +because he thought I was only for the single voyage, and I came +over and got my money. + +15,506. Would he not have given you your money if he had known +you were going the other voyage?-I believe he would not. + +15,507. How did you happen to ask for your money at that time? +Is it not usual to ask for it after the first voyage?-When the men +go for a single voyage, which lasts for about six weeks, they are +cleared off when they go home; but when they go for the double +voyage they cannot get their money until the end of the season. +Mr. Leask thought I was shipped for the double voyage and that I +would come over and draw the whole of my money at one time; +but of course I did not know myself that I was for the double +voyage until the captain came again and put me down for it. + +15,508. Do men never draw their money at the end of the first +voyage except when they are done with the ship for that season?- +They do it now. As soon as their six weeks are over and they +come back again, they draw their money; but they did not do that +before. + +15,509. Was it always the practice before to make only one +settlement for the long voyage?-Yes. + +15,510. Have you always got your money since 1866?-Yes. + +15,511. Have you also incurred an account at the same time with +the agent who engaged you?-Yes. + +15,512. How is it settled?-It was settled at the end of the season. + +15,513. Was it read over to you before you went up to the Custom +House to get payment of your money?-Yes. + +15,514. Was the balance written out in the books before you went +up?-Yes. + +[Page 392] + +15,515. You went up and got your money from the Custom House +from the agent or his clerk, and then you came down to the shop +and paid your account?-Yes. + +15,516. When you went to the shop in the first place, were you +always told to come back and pay your account?-Yes. + +15,517. Who tells you to do that?-The agent. + +15,518. Have you always had your account clear at the end of the +season, or have you sometimes been in debt to the shop?-I have +always been clear. + +15,519. Do you know that young hands are sometimes in debt to +the shop at the end of the season?-Yes. + +15,520. Has there sometimes been a difficulty in getting berths in +the sealing and whaling vessels, in consequence of more men +applying than were wanted?-Yes. + +15,521. What kind of men are preferred in such circumstances; +is it the best quality of men?-There are generally all sorts of +hands-green hands, and able seamen, and ordinary seamen of all +kinds. + +15,522. When a man is in debt to an agent, do you think he has +any better chance of getting a berth?-My partners think so. They +think that if a man is in debt the agent will perhaps try to get him +into a vessel, in order that he may be able to clear off his debt. + +15,523. Do you know that they have done that?-Yes, I have seen +it. + +15,524. What have you seen?-I have seen agents getting men +who were in their debt put into their ships. + +15,525. Have you heard the captains complaining of the agents +putting inferior men upon them for that reason?-I have. Captain +Bruce of the 'Camperdown,' complained about that in 1866. He +said to the men that Mr. Leask was putting hands into the ship that +he did not like, and that he would have liked better hands. + +15,526. Did he state the reason why he supposed Mr. Leask was +doing that?-He did not tell us about the reason. + +15,527. Then how did you know that that was the reason why Mr. +Leask had put in inferior hands?-I knew they were men who were +in debt to him. + +15,528. Did you know that from the men themselves?-Yes, I +knew it from several men; but I don't remember their names- +they were men on board the 'Camperdown' that year along with +me. + +15,529. Did they tell you that their being in debt had given them a +better chance of a berth?-Yes; and that when they were in debt +they got a ship. + +15,530. Was that a general understanding among them?-Yes. + +15,531. Did you know of any better men who wished to go in that +ship, but who were refused because they were not in debt?-No; +but I know that if men are debt to the agent they will get a ship +sooner than those who are clear with him. + +15,532. But you have always got a ship although you were not in +debt?-Yes. + +15,533. Are you an able seaman?-Yes, I am a boat-steerer. + +15,534. Do harpooneers and boat-steerers get a higher wage, and +are they more sure of getting a berth than ordinary seamen?-Yes, +they get higher wages, and are more in demand. + +15,535. On the occasion you spoke of, when you went in the +'Camperdown' with Captain Bruce, it was to the captain that +you owed your engagement, and not to the agent?-Yes. + +15,536. If the agent had had his own way, would you have been +engaged?-I would not. + +15,537. Had you an account with the agent at that time?-No, I +had some more money to get from him. + +15,538. Had he not paid you up the whole of the money that +was due to you on the sealing voyage?-No; there was a second +payment of oil-money which I had to get. + +15,539. Is it quite understood among the whalers, that when their +money is paid to them at the Custom House they have to go down +to the shops and pay it to the agents?-Yes; they quite understand +that they have to clear the agent's books. + +15,540. I suppose a man would not think of letting his account +stand any longer?-No. + +15,541. What would be the consequence if he did that?-I cannot +say. + +15,542. Would he get a berth next year?-He might get a berth +next year, but it is best to have the books cleared. + +15,543. But suppose a man had other accounts due, would he have +to go and pay the agent first, and let his other accounts wait?-I +don't know about that. + +15,544. Does not a man go and pay the agent first, whether he has +other people wanting his money or not?-As a rule, they go and +pay the agent first. + +15,545. Have you heard any of the men complain that they had to +pay the agents in preference to other accounts which they wished +to settle?-No. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER HALCROW, examined. + +15,546. Are you a seaman?-Yes. + +15,547. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for some +years back?-Yes, for nine years. + +15,548. What agents in Lerwick have you been engaged by?-The +whole of them. + +15,549. Did you always get your outfit from the agent you engaged +with?-Yes, the most part of it. + +15,550. And you settled your account with him at the end of the +year?-Yes. + +15,551. Had you always a balance to receive in money?- +Generally. Once I had not; that was in my second year. + +15,552. Have you always got any money that was due to you paid +in cash?-No. + +15,553. When did you not?-The first year I was out. + +15,554. Was there something due to you that year?-Yes, + +15,555. Did you ask for it to be paid to you?-Yes, at different +times; but I did not get it. I was told that the agent had not got it +himself, and that therefore I could not get it. + +15,556. When did you return that year?-On 1st October. + +15,557. How long was it after that before you got your money +paid?-I never got it paid at all. I had to take goods for it out of +Mr. Leask's shop. + +15,558. Were you told to take goods?-No, he did not tell me to +take them; but I had to take them when I could not get the money. +I was in need of them. + +15,559. Did you want the goods?-Yes, I was requiring things, and +I got them there. + +15,560. Did he say that you had better take goods, as the money +had not come?-No, he did not say that. He only said it was not +come every time I came and asked for it, and as I could not wait +longer I just took the things I had to get. + +15,561. How long was it after you returned before you began to +take the goods?-About a month or five weeks. + +15,562. How often had you asked for the money within that +time?-Three or four times. + +15,563. Were you offered the goods?-No, I was never offered +them until I asked for them. + +15,564. Did you say anything about not getting your money to the +agent or any of his people?-No, I did not say anything. + +15,565. Are you sure there was £4 due to you at that time?- +There was £4, 10s. due when we left home from the owners, and +30s. from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, because we were +shipwrecked. + +15,566. Then there was no oil-money that year?-None. + +15,567. Did you not get the payment from the Shipwrecked +Mariners' Fund in cash?-No. + +15,568. Did you apply for it in cash?-Yes; I applied at the shop +for it, and I got a very little cash, perhaps about £1 at one time and +another-not all at once. + +[Page 393] + +15,569. Have you ever taken part of your earnings in goods since +then?-Yes, I have done so almost every year that I have been out. + +15,570. But that was just in the account which you opened when +you went away?-Yes. + +15,571. Did your people get any advances when you were absent +from the agent with whom you shipped?-Yes; a little. + +15,572. And they get any supplies anywhere else?-They generally +got them from the agent. + +15,573. Why was that?-I don't know; they just got them there. + +15,574. Do you not get a month's advance when you leave?-We +get a month's advance now. We don't get the money before we +leave, but we get a ticket to be paid three days after the ship sails. +We generally give it to the agent, and get a little money on it, but +not to the full amount of the advance. + +15,575. Do you not leave that ticket at home?-Some of the men +leave them at home, and the value of them is got afterwards. + +15,576. Why do you not do that?-Because I may want the money +before I go away, and I get a part of it from the agent. + +15,577. In that case you have to leave your ticket with the +agent?-Yes, we have to give it up to him. + +15,578. Do you not get allotment tickets when you leave?-I don't +know them. + +15,579. Can you not get half-pay tickets if you want them?-Yes. + +15,580. Is it not the practice to get them?-Sometimes they get +them if they ask for them. + +15,581. Do you take them?-No. + +15,582. Why?-I don't know. We generally just get what we +want in money or in goods, as we ask for it. + +15,583. Do the agents give these half-pay tickets whenever they +are asked for?-Yes. + +15,584. Would they prefer you not to take them, but to take goods +instead?-I don't know about that. I have not been told so. + +15,585. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes. + +15,586. Do you think what he said was generally correct?-I think +so. + +15,587. Was he correct in what he said about a man who was in +debt to the agent getting a berth more readily than another?-Yes. + +15,588. Have you known that in your own experience?-I got a +ship when I was in debt in my second year. + +15,589. Do you think you got it more easily because you were in +debt?-I cannot say for that. + +15,590. Have you heard men speaking about getting a ship more +easily when they were in debt?-I have heard them talking about +it, but still I don't know about it myself except on that one +occasion. + +15,591. Have you known any case like that which Francis Gifford +mentioned, of inferior men being put on board a ship because they +were in the agent's debt, in preference to better men?-I never +knew of that, but still it may have happened. I wish to say that in +1866 I shipped in the 'Diana' of Hull, for the west ice in Davis +Straits, and when we were out I was beset in her for thirteen +months, and for seven months we were on short allowance. We +have never been paid for that short allowance, although the men +in Hull were paid for it. + +15,592. Have you applied for that?-There is a man here who has +applied for it. I think he applied to Mr. Charles Duncan, writer, +and also to the sheriff. + +15,593. Who was the agent from whom you thought you should +have got it?-Mr. Leask. + +15,594. Did you apply to him for the difference which you ought +to have got in consequence of being put upon short allowance?- +Yes; and he told us it was no use applying for it, because he did +not think we would get it. I never asked Mr. Leask about that +myself, but other men in Lerwick have done it. + +15,595. Did they mention to him that the Hull men had got the +difference paid to them?-Yes. + +15,596. Did Mr. Leask offer to do anything for you in that case?- +Not as far as I know; but I was away from home at the time when +the men applied for it. + +15,597. Do you think that has anything to do with your dealings +at Mr. Leask's shop?-I don't think so, but I suppose Mr. Leask +could have applied for it if he had liked. + +15,598. Had you an account with him that year which you settled +as usual at the end of the season?-Yes. + +15,599. Did you not apply for the difference on the short +allowance when you were settling that account?-Yes. They +told me then that they did not know but what they might get it +for us, but still they did not say that we would get it, and it has +not come yet. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM LAURENSON, examined. + +15,600. Are you a seaman living in Bressay?-Yes. I have been at +the sealing and whaling for thirty-six years. I have got settled, and +got my wages paid to me at the Custom House for some years +back, but that was not done when I first went. + +15,601. Before you were paid at the Custom House, did you not +get payment of your wages?-I got no satisfaction of them. I very +often did not see an account. I would come over from Bressay two +or three different times wanting to get settled, but they would +shove me off time after time, giving me perhaps 10s. or £1; but +they would not settle with me. + +15,602. Were you owing an account for supplies at that time?- +I got supplies from the shop when I went on the voyage, but I +always had balances of money to get. I never was in debt. + +15,603. By what agents were you treated in that way?-They are +long dead now. + +15,604. Did that not continue till 1867, when the new regulations +came into force, according to which you were paid at the Custom +House?-Yes; the system continued much the same until then. + +15,605. Were you put off in the same way from time to time down +till 1867?-Yes; perhaps getting £1 or 10s. now and again. + +15,606. What agents were you engaged by, five or six years ago?- +I was engaged by Mr. Tait, and I was three years for Mr. Tulloch; +but I was paid at the Custom House then. + +15,607. Were you often engaged by Mr. Tait before 1867?-I +would be engaged by him perhaps two years at a time, and then I +would leave him and go to another, and then go back to him again. + +15,608. Who else did you engage with?-I went out a long time +for Messrs. Hay, and I was with Mr. Leask too. + +15,609. When you went, until five years ago, to get a settlement of +your account, were you always put off with £1 or 10s., or some +supplies, if you wanted them?-I was put off now and again. + +15,610. Did all the agents who employed you treat you in the same +way?-Almost every one. + +15,611. Did you not get a settlement with Messrs. Hay when you +asked for it?-Yes; I got a fair settlement with Messrs. Hay when I +went out from their shop. + +15,612. Were you ever put off in the way you have mentioned +when you were engaged by them?-No; and I was engaged by +them for ten years. + +15,613. When you went to Mr. Tait, did he settle with you when +you asked for it, even before the new system?-Yes. + +15,614. Did he ever put you off in that way?-No. I was out of his +shop when his father was alive, and he settled with me in the same +way. + +15,615. Had you ever to ask him twice for your money?-No. + +15,616. Did you get a settlement whenever you went there for +it?-Yes. + +15,617. Did you always get your money in full when you went +over to ask for it from Mr. Leask?-I got what was due to me; but +I generally had some things out of the shop before I went, and then +I got the balance. + +[Page 394] + +15,618. Could you always get it at once without any difficulty?- +Yes; I just asked for it and I got it. + +15,619. Then who were the agents who put you off in the way you +mentioned?-They are all dead long ago. + +15,620. I thought you said the system of putting you off in that +way, and of giving you £1 or 10s. at a time, continued till about +five or six years ago?-Sometimes it did, and sometimes not. +Some years I never got a fair account, and in other years I did. + +15,621. But you always got a fair account from Messrs. Hay?- +Yes. + +15,622. And from Mr. Leask?-Yes. + +15,623. And from Mr. Tait and Mr. Tulloch?-Yes. + +15,624. What agents were there besides these, five or six years +ago?-It is far longer than five or six years since I was put off in +that way, and did not get the settlement when I wanted it. + +15,625. Will it be ten years since you asked for your money and +did not get it?-It will be ten years, or above that. + +15,626. Will it be fifteen or twenty years ago?-It will be from +fifteen to twenty years. + +15,627. Are you a harpooneer or a boat-steerer?-I am a +boat-steerer. + +15,628. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes. + +15,629. Do you think he was generally correct in what he said?- +Yes. I know quite well that men who were in debt to the agent +could get a ship sooner than I could, who was clear with them. + +15,630. Could a man do that although he was not so good a +seaman?-Yes. + +15,631. Was that a general belief among the men?-Yes. For my +part, I never was indebted to any of the agents, and therefore I got +a ship whenever wanted it. + +15,632. Did you get a ship because you were not in debt?-Yes; it +did not matter. I stayed in one ship for a long time. + +15,633. Were the agents more willing to get a berth for a man who +was not in their debt?-No. + +15,634. Did they prefer to engage a man who was in their debt?- +Yes; but there were not very many that would be in debt. Perhaps +a young hand, who had been a year or two only at the whaling, and +had small wages, would be in debt, and they would take him next +year in order to clear off the accounts which he had left the year +before. + +15,635. Do you think the green hands were ready to get into debt +in order to make sure of getting a berth next year?-I don't know +about that. + +15,636. Then what did you mean by saying that you never were in +debt, and therefore you always got berth when you wanted it?-I +only meant to say that always got a ship when I wanted one, but +that I never was in debt to the agents; and therefore I cannot prove +whether they would take me more readily if I was in debt. But I +have heard the men saying that those who were in debt would be +shipped as soon as the others. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ELIZABETH MORRISON, examined. + +15,637. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes. + +15,638. What do you do?-Anything that I can. I go errands or +knit stockings, or anything of that sort. + +15,639. Do you sometimes go about selling things?-I have sold +three or four neckties to different people. + +15,640. Do you not sell other kinds of goods?-No. If I sell +anything, it is of my own. + +15,641. Do you sell shop goods of different kinds?-No. + +15,642. Do you mean that you do not go about the country and +hawk goods?-I don't do that. + +15,643. Did you ever get any shop goods from a knitter for the +purpose of selling them or exchanging them for other things?- +No; the neckties I sold I got ready money for. + +15,644. It is not neckties I am speaking about at all. Have you +not sold goods that you had got from knitting women for that +purpose?-No, not for some years past. + +15,645. Did you once do that?-Yes, some time ago. + +15,646. How long ago?-I cannot remember. + +15,647. A year ago?-It is about that. + +15,648. Did you not make a living sometimes by getting goods +from knitters and selling them again in the country?-No; I never +was out of Lerwick in my time. + +15,649. Did you sell them in Lerwick?-I sold some bits of +dribblets of things that were not worth mentioning; but that +was some time ago. + +15,650. What was it that you sold?-It may have been three yards +of cotton, or such as that. + +15,651. Did you get such things pretty often from knitters?-No, not often. + +15,652. When did you get them last?-It was a long time ago. + +15,653. Was it six months ago?-It would be above that. + +15,654. Would it be twelve months since you got anything of that +kind to sell?-I cannot say. + +15,655. You said you had perhaps sold three yards of cotton: +whom did you sell it for?-I cannot remember. + +15,656. Whom did you get it from?-I cannot remember. + +15,657. Have you got it more than once?-Perhaps once or twice; +but it is a long time ago now. + +15,658. Do you think you may have got it three or four times?-I +don't think I did. + +15,659. What else did you get besides the three yards of cotton?- +Nothing. + +15,660. Did you never get a bit of cloth for a dress?-No. + +15,661. Or a jacket?-No. + +15,662. Or a pair of boots?-No. + +15,663. Did you ever get any tea or sugar to sell?-No. + +15,664. Do you swear that?-I do. + +15,665. Do you swear that you never sold a quarter pound of tea in +your life?-I do. + +15,666. Did you never sell any sugar?-No. + +15,667. Did you ever buy any except out of a shop?-I never +bought any except what I bought out a shop for my ready penny. + +15,668. Did you ever tell anybody that you had sold things for +knitters?-No, I could not tell any one that. + +15,669. Did you get that cotton from a woman who had got it for +her knitting?-I don't know in what way she may have got it, but I +got it from a woman. Who she was I cannot say, because she +picked me up in the street and gave it to me. + +15,670. Did you get it sold for her?-I did. I don't remember who +bought it; it was some country person. + +15,671. Do you not remember who the woman was that you got it +from?-I cannot remember. + +15,672. Did you know her?-I did not know her. + +15,673. In what way did she ask you to sell it for her?-She asked +me if I could get anybody to buy it, and I saw a country woman at +my side, and she bought it. + +15,674. Why did the woman ask you to get it sold?-I don't know. + +15,675. Had you never seen her before?-Neither before nor since. + +15,676. Have you any idea why she asked you to sell it?-No, I +have no idea of that. + +15,677. Do you think she had ever seen you doing the like +before?-There is many an old person such as me who does +errands for many a one. + +15,678. Have you done errands of that kind at other times?-Yes, +years and years ago. + +15,679. May you have done so a good many times?-I don't know. +It was very seldom I did it. + +15,680. What did you get for that cotton?-I cannot remember +now. + +15,681. Was it money you got for it?-Yes. + +[Page 395] + +15,682. Did you pay the woman you got it from at the time?-Yes. + +15,683. Had you not paid her for it before you sold it?-I gave her +the money just as I got it from the woman at my side. + +15,684. How long was it between the time when you got the cotton +and the time when you sold it?-Perhaps a minute or five or ten +minutes. The woman was just at my hand who bought it. + +15,685. Why could the woman who gave it to you not have sold it +herself?-I don't know. + +15,686. How much did she give you for selling it?-A penny. + +15,687. Did you ever get a penny for selling anything else?-No; I +don't work in that way for my living. + +15,688. Are you sure you never got a penny for selling any other +article for a woman?-I have got many a penny at different times, +but not in that exact way. + +15,689. What else do you do for your living?-I live very meanly. + +15,690. But do you never get any more than a penny for doing an +errand now and then?-I have no idea of doing errands only for +my living. + +15,691. Is there anything else by which you make a living, except +by going errands?-I am not going errands for ever. I sometimes +sit and knit a stocking in my own room; that is all I do. + +15,692. Do you sell your stockings?-No; they are just for myself. + +15,693. Then they will not make it living for you?-No; but +perhaps some of my friends might lift a hand to help me. + +15,694. Do you live on charity?-Not altogether on charity. + +15,695. You do run an errand for a penny now and then?-No, not +I. + +15,696. Why are you reluctant to tell me the truth?-I am not +denying the truth. + +15,697. You are not willing to answer my questions: why is +that?-I have answered them so far as I know, and as far as I +am able. I have no more to say than I have told you, and I have +told you all the truth. + +15,698. You say you do not make your living by charity, and you +only get a penny now and then for running errands, but that is very +seldom: is there any other way in which you make your living?- +When a person wishes to lift their hand to me in charity, I take +what they have to give me. + +15,699. Do you swear that you don't make the principal part of +your living by selling things in the town?-I don't make my living +by that. + +15,700. Do you swear that you don't sell something every day?-I +don't sell something every day. + +15,701. Don't you sell two or three things every week?-No; I am +quite sure of that. + +15,702. Have you sold anything this week?-No. + +15,703. Did you sell anything last week or the week before?-No. + +15,704. Did you sell anything last year?-I cannot remember what +I did last year, for my memory is quite gone. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM B.M. HARRISON, examined. + +15,705. Are you a partner of the firm of Harrison & Sons?-I am. + +15,706. Your firm, I believe, are extensively engaged in the Faroe +fishing?-Yes. + +15,707. In what form is the agreement you enter into with the men +for that fishing?-The men agree, in the first place, to prosecute +the fishing in a certain vessel, and to join the vessel any day when +we may call upon them to do so, and proceed to the fishing to +either Faroe, Iceland, Rockall, or any other place that the master +may think most expedient, and to stay there as long as the master +thinks fit, with the exception of the trips they may make home for +landing any fish they may catch, or in case of accident or for +any other good reason; in consideration of which services the +fishermen have to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish +caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, etc., such as +master's premium, 10s. per ton, mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, +and the cost of bait required for catching the fish. Along with that +the men have to get eight pounds of bread per man per week and +9d. per score for the fish which each man takes, one half to be +paid by the owners and the other half by the crew. That is the +substance of the agreement. And then there are clauses for our +safety, having reference to damage that may be done to the vessel +or her gear, which the men bind themselves to pay for. + +15,708. Is there a scale of victualling for the men in case the +vessel goes to Iceland?-Yes. The agreement binds the men to +fish according to it until the 20th August; and the next clause says +that if the master or owner sees fit to leave Faroe for Iceland or for +a late voyage, then the men agree to go upon the victuals and +wages which are stated in the agreement. + +15,709. Then in addition to the stipulations in the agreement, I +understand the owner receives a commission of five per cent. on +the whole proceeds of the voyage?-He is entitled to get it if he +can, but very often we don't get it. This year we have got nothing. + +15,710. Was that because the men objected to it?-We always try +to pay as high as other people; but this year we have not made +such good sales, and therefore we have not taken anything off, so +that we might be able to give as much per ton as other people give. +In other years, again, we may get two and a half or we may get five +per cent, just as the fish sales turn out; and the men don't object to +us getting it if we can. + +15,711. Why is there no stipulation for a commission put into the +agreement?-It has never been put into our agreements from the +first. + +15,712 Is it a usual thing to take it?-Yes, it is quite usual if we +can get it; but we have to bear and haul with other people, and if +the men would be dissatisfied with us taking it we have to give it +up, and we would rather do so than have any words about it. + +15,713. Was this not a good year in the Faroe fishing?-No, very +indifferent. + +15,714. What was the amount of a share in one of your smacks +with an average take this year?-I should say about £18. + +15,715. Was that sum larger than the ordinary, or would some of +them be less or more?-We had some of them as high as £28 for a +sharesman. + +15,716. Were these in the larger smacks?-No; there were others +as large, but less fortunate; and there were some of them much +smaller, and they could not be expected to do so well. + +15,717. Do the men ever ask for or get a sight of the bills of +sale?-Yes. I have shown them to the fishermen this year. + +15,718. Had you ever shown them to them before?-Yes. I +had not shown them to every man, but I had shown them to the +captain, who I expected would have more knowledge of the matter +than the other men. + +15,719. Do the men generally run accounts at your shop?-Yes; +every one of them has an account. + +15,720. Do you think they get most of the supplies for their +families during the season from your shop?-I think they do. +Perhaps there are two or three of them who want to look after +their means better than the rest, and who have money lying beside +them: these men may perhaps buy goods with cash, and not from +our shop; but, as a rule, every one of them gets his supplies from +us. + +15,721. I believe the majority of your men are not in debt to you at +settlement, but have a balance to receive in cash?-Yes. I think +there are very few this year, and there were very few last year, who +were in debt; and even with these men the amount of debt is very +small. + +15,722. Do you think the amount of debt was smaller than usual in +the two years for which you have given [Page 396] returns, 1867 +and 1871, or was it about an average?-That depends altogether +upon the fishing. If it is not a total failure, the men are generally +all clear of debt; but if a bad year comes in, then we cannot expect +that. + +15,723. How do you account for the fact that the men almost all +take their supplies for the season from your shop in an account +with you?-If they have no money, it is not likely that other people +will give them supplies, unless they know them very well; and +even if they have money, I always find that the men prefer to keep +it and come to the shop again and take up goods. + +15,724. Do they keep the money in their hands rather than pay +for the goods in cash when they get them?-Yes, invariably. I +have frequently noticed that practice among the men, and I have +spoken to them about it. I have paid as much as £20 to a man at +settlement, and then he would come into the shop and take out his +outfit. I have asked them why they did so, and told them it would +be better for them to pay for their goods with their own money, +and then they would know what they were doing. + +15,725. What was their answer to that?-They said they preferred +to keep the money. It was always in their hand, and the goods +could stand over for a year; and perhaps, if the next year's fishing +is bad, they think we will allow it to stand for two years rather than +push them for the price. + +15,726. Would the men not get their goods cheaper if a system +existed of paying in cash?-I don't think they would. + +15,727. They might not get them cheaper as matters stand at +present; but if they were, all willing to pay in cash, would it not be +possible for you to give them their goods cheaper than you supply +them upon credit?-I would not sell cheaper for cash. The goods +are all marked in figures, and when they are paid for in cash they +are charged at the same prices as when put down to the account. +We have not two prices for our goods. + +15,728. What proportion does your cash trade bear to your credit +trade?-I should say that it is more than one third, but not one +half. + +15,729. In the answers you have given, are you speaking of the +Faroe fishermen in your employment, or are you also referring +to the home fishermen?-I have been speaking of the Faroe +fishermen principally. + +15,730. Where are the men employed by you in the ling fishing?- +Most of them are situated in Sandwick parish. + +15,731. Have they also accounts in your shop here?-Most of +them have. + +15,732. But not to the same extent per man as the Faroe men?- +No; but we know exactly how much they are likely to gain, and +therefore they are not allowed to exceed a certain sum. + +15,733. Do you limit the credits of the men employed in the home +fishing?-They limit their credits themselves, because they are +grown-up men with families, and they know how far they should +run their accounts. Of course, if they were running them further, +we would limit them; but we rarely have to do that, because we +know they must have the little which they do get. + +15,734. Is not that the case with the Faroe fishermen also?-Yes; +we limit them too. + +15,735. But I understand you to say that the necessity for limiting +the home fishermen is greater than in the case of the Faroe +fishermen?-Yes. + +15,736. Why is that?-Because I consider the home fishing is not +so good a fishing: the earnings from it are not so great. + +15,737. You said you knew quite well what the men are likely to +earn in the ling fishing?-Yes. I can tell from my experience the +outside which any ling fisherman can earn. + +15,738. Do you know that before the season begins?-Yes. By +taking five or six years together, I can see what a man has done in +time past, and I don't expect that he will exceed it. + +15,739. Do you think that any five years of a fisherman's life will +give an average from which you can calculate his probable take for +next year?-Yes; I think five years is quite sufficient. + +15,740. The variation, I suppose, arises from the nature of the +season?-Yes; in stormy weather they cannot go to sea so often +as in good seasons, and in other times the fish do not come over +the ground so well as they did before. Another thing is the herring +fishing, which is connected with the ling fishing, the same boats +being used for both purposes. + +15,741. Are you engaged in it extensively?-No, not very +extensively. I think we have about 10 or 11 boats altogether +which fish in the herring fishery. + +15,742. Is the engagement of the fishermen in the herring fishing +similar to that which exists in the ling fishing?-It is exactly the +same. + +15,743. They are paid according to the current price at the end of +the season, and that price is settled for at the same time as the +price for the ling fishing?-Yes; they are both settled for together. + +15,744. Do the returns which you have furnished with regard to +the home fishing include in any of the answers the earnings from +the herring fishing?-Yes; they apply to both ling and herring put +together. In fact they apply to everything that the man has earned +in the years to which the questions relate. + +15,745. Do you think it would be practicable to introduce a cash +system into Shetland in place of the annual settlements which now +exist?-It would be better for the curer. I don't know if it would +be better for the fishermen altogether. I think it would be better +for perhaps one half or two thirds of them; but the other third, I am +afraid, could not get on at all with the cash system. + +15,746. Do you think they would have a difficulty in living over +the first half of the year?-Yes; over winter or spring, until the +fishing had commenced. + +15,747. Do you think it would be impossible for them to get +advances during that time in order to keep them going?-If they +were to be paid in cash, the fish-curer of course would not give +them anything until they brought the fish to him, and other people +would be inclined to say the same thing. The man would merely +have to be trusted like any other man going into any shop and +purchasing goods on his own credit. + +15,748. But, except for that difficulty, you would prefer a cash +system?-I would. + +15,749. Do you think there would be any difficulty in carrying out +that system, supposing it were once begun, the men had tided over +that transition period?-I think there would be none whatever. + +15,750. Would it be possible to pay the men fortnightly or +monthly, or at delivery?-I would pay them weekly. + +15,751. Would you pay them the whole proceeds of the fish caught +during the week?-I would pay them exactly for every tail they +landed. I would fix a price with them at first, before they began to +the fishing at all; but that price might be altered weekly, according +the markets went up or down, the same as in any other trade. + +15,752. Do you think the fishermen would agree to that?-We +have asked them to agree to it, but they have not done so. + +15,753. Was that because they did not like to have the price fixed +and thus lose the chance of a rising market?-It was not so much +the fixing of the price that they objected to. They would have +agreed to that, but some of them who did not know where to find +means said, 'What are we to do if we get no cash for a week or +two in stormy weather, and we cannot go off; the merchant cannot +supply us then.' Of course they could not expect us to supply them +with anything after we had commenced with that system. + +15,754. If the man was bound to fish for you, would you not be +willing to give him supplies?-But they would not be bound to +fish at all in that case. + +15,755. But the men might be bound to fish for you all the season, +although they were paid weekly?-I would not care to engage +anybody then for the season. I would have a station at a certain +place, [Page 397] with weights there, and I would pay for the fish +as I got them. + +15,756. Was that the nature of the offer which you made to the +fishermen, and which they would not accept?-Yes. We would +have no hold over the fishermen in that case at all. + +15,757. Would it not be quite practicable to engage the men for +the whole season and to pay them weekly?-It would be quite +practicable. + +15,758. Have you made an offer to them of that description?- +Yes; we have made an offer to some fishermen who fish for us +now. + +15,759. Did you offer to engage them to fish for you for the whole +season?-Yes. If they commenced, they would never think of +changing. + +15,760. In that case would there be any reluctance on the part of +the fish-curer to make an advance to the men in a bad week if they +were bound to fish for him over the whole season?-I should not +care to do it because they might get no more fish after a certain +date. At the end of the year the weather is very often such that the +men cannot go off for weeks, and we might be advancing on the +prospect of what never came, and then the men would be in debt. + +15,761. In the case you refer to, were the fishermen not willing to +accept your offer?-They were not willing. + +15,762. Do you think it would have made any difference in that +respect if the offer had been to pay a proportion of the price-say +a minimum price of 5s. 6d. or so for ling-and that the balance +should be paid according to the current price at the end of the +season?-I don't know how that would do. I never spoke about +that with the men. I think that would be giving them two chances. +It would be giving them the cash, and then giving them the full +value of the market after I had paid out my cash so much sooner +than I would otherwise have done. When a thing is sold, it is sold, +and you take your chance either to lose or to gain, but in that case +the fishermen would have the cash in their hands, and they would +also have the chance of benefiting by a rise in the price. + +15,763. But in other trades, merchants have to lay out their cash in +wages and take their chance of a return?-Yes; and I would do the +same. + +15,764. You would do the same if the men were paid wages, but +would you not be prepared to make part of the wages dependent +upon the market price of the fish?-No. I hold that in a business +transaction, if a party agrees to sell, and you agree to purchase, the +one takes his chance, and you take your chance too. That would +bring each party to an understanding of how matters stood between +them. If it was the practice altogether to purchase the fish green, +and to pay for them in money, there would be so many people in +competition for them that the men would be sure to get the full +value, because, if I gave 6d. more, another man would be sure to +give 6d. more if he could afford it, and the men would not lose +by that. The fish would go up to the very top price, and the men +would reap the advantage. + +15,765. Do you think there would be always two or three +competing merchants at each station?-Certainly there would. +The stations are only half a mile apart; and if one man would +not offer the price, another would do so. + +15,766. Are your curers paid by weekly wages?-We have one +curer paid by weekly wages. + +15,767. Do you cure by contract?-Yes, as well as by wage. + +15,768. How many people are employed in your curing +establishment during the season?-I cannot say, because some +go on for a week or two, and others go on at the end of that +time; but we will have as high as forty and as low as twenty +people who are not off work. + +15,769. How are these people paid?-They are paid weekly by a +daily wage on Saturday night. + +15,770. Do they receive payment of their whole wages in cash?- +Every penny. + +15,771. Are they paid in cash even if they have had out-takes +during the week?-They have no out-takes; we don't give them. + +15,772. Is yours the only establishment in Shetland, so far as you +know, where that is the practice?-So far as I know, I believe it is; +but I am not certain. The only other one where I thought it was +done was Leask's; but I happened to be present last day when Mr. +Robertson was examined, and I heard him say that they did give +credit, which I did not know before. + +15,773. Has it been long the practice in your establishment not to +give credit to your weekly workers?-It has been the practice for +about five years. + +15,774. Have you found it to facilitate your transactions very +much?-Yes; and it was for that reason we gave up the practice +of giving credit. When we first commenced to cure at Bressay, +we paid by weekly wages; but the people usually wanted some +advances before the Saturday night, and we found in a short time +that we were losing money by bad debts while a great deal of time +was involved in settling with them on the Saturdays. In fact it took +up so much time, and caused so much trouble, that we stopped it +altogether. + +15,775. How did the bad debts occur?-The girls wanted to take +up clothing, and on Saturday night they required food for another +week, and we found they took up too much. + +15,776. Have you found that the people are now contented +with the system which you have introduced?-They are quite +contented. + +15,777. They don't come to you wanting out-takes?-Never. + +15,778. Do you find they get on quite comfortably under the +present system?-Yes. What took us hours before to settle, +we can settle now in the course of half an hour. + +15,779. Don't you think the fishermen might manage to get on +under the cash system if it were introduced in the same way that +you have done with your workers in the curing establishment?- +The fishermen are different thing. The fish have first to be caught +before they are paid for; whereas, in the other case, the people are +engaged for a weekly wage, which they are certain to get. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLOTTE JOHNSTON, examined. + +15,780. You live at Colafirth, near Ollaberry?-Yes. + +15,781. How long have you lived there?-I was born at Colafirth, +but I came to Lerwick when I was 25 years of age, and I was here +for 17 years. + +15,782. What did you do in Lerwick?-We kept a few boarders +and lodgers. + +15,783. What do you do now in Colafirth?-I have been employed +scouring or dressing hosiery for the most part, and I generally +had to go to one man with it for 10 years, except two months. I +commenced on 1st. June 1861, and stopped on 8th April 1871. + +15,784. Who did you dress hosiery for?-Chiefly for Mr. Morgan +Laurenson, Lochend. + +15,785. Do you also knit?-Yes. + +15,786. Were you always paid for that in goods?-Yes. + +15,787. Did you get them at Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend?- +Yes. + +15,788. Do you also deal sometimes at the shop at Ollaberry?- +Yes. + +15,789. Have you an account there?-Yes. I have had a good +many accounts. I think the first account I had with Mr. Laurenson +was in 1863. + +15,790. Were these accounts settled regularly?-No; that was the +mistake. I wanted to settle regularly after a few months, when I +got home perhaps from 10 to 20 dozen, but he ran on the accounts +for perhaps 14 or 15 months, so that I did not know whether I was +going ahead or going back. + +15,791. This account [showing] was settled on [Page 398] +December 31, 1864: 'By contra., £7, 10s. 9d.' What was that +due you for?-I had scouring, and I had two tatted rugs, and I +knitted cloth. + +15,792. I see the account is settled again on March 31, 1866: were +you still working at the same things?-Yes. + +15,793. The work you did was put at the end of the book?-Yes. + +15,794. The book you have shown me is a very carefully kept +pass-book, is it not? Is there anything wrong in it?-I was not +satisfied, and therefore I kept it. + +15,795. Why were you not satisfied with it?-I thought he charged +me too much for my groceries, and gave too little for my dozens of +scouring. + +15,796. Could you not have fixed your price for your scouring +yourself?-No, I did not get the chance. He did it all himself, +because he had both sides of the question. + +15,797. But you had no need to work for a less wage than you +thought was fair. Could you not have gone somewhere else with +your work?-He always thought I should work to him. I could +have gone to many a place else, and got work and been paid for it +what I thought was a fair price, but he thought I should still have to +stay and work for him. + +15,798. Why did he think so?-I suppose he thought he got as well +done to by me as he could have got done to him by another. + +15,799. But he could not oblige you to do anything you did not +choose to do?-When I would refuse to do what he wanted me to +do at a time when I was up myself, he would send the things to me +in a box to be done. + +15,800. But you did not need to dress the goods unless you got +what you thought was a fair price for them?-I had to do it, +because I had to work for my own maintenance. + +15,801. Are the pass-books you have produced the only pass books +you have?-Yes. + +15,802. The next one is for 1868 and 1869. Is with Mr. Laurenson +too?-Yes. + +15,803. It is only brought down to October 1869. Have you had no +pass-book since then?-No; I wanted to stop work then because I +was not well. + +15,804. Have you got no supplies from Mr. Laurenson since +1869?-Yes; I have got an account of them. [Produces account.] + +15,805. When was the account settled last?-I think it was in April +or May 1871; perhaps it may have been in June. + +15,806. On May 16, 1870, I see you are charged 8d. for oatmeal: +how much was that for?-4 lbs. + +15,807. Were you told at the time you got it what the price of it +was to be?-No; I did not know at the time how much it was to be. + +15,808. On June 27 you are charged 2s. for tea: how much was +that?-Half a pound. + +15,809. Do you buy 4s. tea at Lochend?-We have bought 5s. tea +at Lochend, but that was in 1863. + +15,810. Is it very fine tea that you get at 2s. per 1/2 lb.?-We ask +for +the best that is in the shop. + +15,811. Are you quite content with the quality of it?-We must +just take it as it is, because we have no means of going anywhere +else. I have a sample of it here. [Produces sample of tea.] + +15,812. Is that 4s. tea?-No, it is 4s. 4d. tea. That [producing line] +is the line they gave us for the goods we got on the 22d of this +month. [Witness produces line in the following form + + s d + By hosiery 2 0 + Tea 1 1 + 0 11 + Rice 0 31/2 + 0 71/2 + Sugar 0 21/2 + 0 5 + + s d + 0 5 + Soda 0 1 + 0 4 + Soap 0 11/2 + 0 21/2 + Cloves 0 1 + 0 11/2 + Sugar and tobacco 0 11/2 + + +15,813. Where do you say you got these goods?-At Lochend, +from Mr. Laurenson. + +15,814. You took him 2s. worth of hosiery?-Yes. + +15,815. How much tea did you get for 1s. 1d?-A 1/4 lb. + +15,816. How much rice did you get for 31/2 d?-1 lb. + +15,817. How much sugar did you get for 21/2 d?-1/4 lb. + +15,818. Did you pay him 21/2d. for it?-Yes + +15,819. Was that loaf sugar?-Yes; I have a sample of it. + +15,820. How much soap did you get?-The soap was 6d. per lb. +[The witness here produced a sample of the tea for which she had +paid 1s. 1d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the loaf sugar for which she had +paid 21/2d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the rice for which she had paid +31/2d. per lb.; a sample of the soap for which she had paid 6d. per +lb.; and a sample of flour for which she paid 2d. per lb. These +were all docketed by the clerk as having been produced by +witness, and purchased from Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend.] + +15,821. Did Mr. Laurenson know that you were to bring these +goods here?-No. + +15,822. Did you get them for your own use?-Yes. + +15,823. Were you asked by your summons to bring them here?- +Yes. + +15,824. Are the articles which you get at the shop at Ollaberry of +the same quality as you get at Lochend?-Mr. Irvine, who keeps +the shop there, is very kind to me. If I want all cash at any time, +he gives it; and Mr. George Henry and Mr. William Smith have +also been very kind to me. They would give me cash at any time +on my hosiery if I asked for it. + +15,825. Are you quite sure that the samples you have produced +were got at the same price that is charged for similar goods in your +account by Mr. Laurenson?-The prices in the account are those +which are charged when the goods are given for work, but the +samples I have produced were given in exchange for hosiery. + +15,826. Are there two prices for goods at that shop?-Yes, they +always charged two prices. When we pay for goods in hosiery, +they are always above the price which is charged when cash is +paid for them. + +15,827. Do you get the goods cheaper when you pay for them by +your work, such as you are dressing, than when you are selling +hosiery?-Yes. The price is then perhaps 1d. less for the 1/4 lb. of +tea. + +15,828. How do you know that?-Because I see it marked. + +15,829. Was the tea for which you were charged 4s. 4d., when +you paid for it by hosiery, the same tea that is charged 4s. in the +account?-I think so. + +15,830. Are you not sure of it?-I did not see them take it out of +the chest. I asked them for the same tea, but I don't know if they +gave the same kind. + +15,831. But did you ask for the best tea in the shop in both +cases?-Yes, I always do. + +15,832. Then all you know is that you asked for the best tea in the +shop, and it was charged 4s. 4d. when you gave hosiery for it, +and it was charged 4s. when it was put into your account for +dressing?-That is all I know; but it is a very short time since it +was 4s. 4d. It was always 4s. 8d. before. + +15,833. I see that on September 29, 1870, you are charged 1s. 6d. +for oatmeal: was that a peck?-Yes. + +15,834. Were you paying 1s. 6d. for the peck of oatmeal at that +time?-Yes; and I suppose there were others paying it as well as +me. + +15,835. Would you have paid the same for it in any other shop in +the neighbourhood?-No. It was dearer [Page 399] than if I had +had the cash and gone into another shop to get it. + +15,836. What did you say when you went to Mr. Laurenson with +the hosiery which you sold to him on the 22d?-It was my sister +who went, not me. + +15,837. Did she tell you what she said?-I don't think it. + +15,838. Are you quite sure your sister did not say what the goods +were wanted for?-I told her what goods to ask for, and she got +what I told her to get. + +15,839. Did you tell her what you were to do with them?-No; I +had not got the summons then. + +15,840. Would you have got these goods from Mr. Laurenson even +although you had not got the summons?-Yes. + +15,841. Did you want them for your own use?-Yes. I got them +on the Monday, and I did not get the summons until the Tuesday +night. + +15,842. You have not brought the whole of the goods which you +bought then. You have merely brought samples from what you +bought?-Yes. I was only told in the summons to bring samples. + +15,843. Was the note which you have produced, given in the shop +at the time when the goods were bought?-Yes. The shop lad +marked down the things on that slip of paper and gave it to my +sister, so that she might show me what she had got, and what the +prices were. + +15,844. You have handed me a letter from one Laurence Clark, +dated 25th January 1872, in which he says, 'I have to inform you +that I built Miss Charlotte Johnston a house in 1863, and I could +not get 1s. from her, because she wrought all her work to Mr. +Laurenson, at dressing hosiery, and could not get so much cash as +1s. Therefore I had to take anything that she had to give me, that +could do me any good. That kind of payment is not so good as +cash.'-For what purpose was this letter written?-It is merely a +line from the man who built my house, to show that I could not get +cash with which to pay him. + +15,845. What did you pay Clark with for building your house?-I +got meal, tea, tobacco, sugar, and anything that was in the shop at +the times which he required; but I had to reduce the goods to him +to cash price, because he would have required his money of me, +and I did not have it to give him. + +15,846. What was the price charged for building your house +altogether?-He charged 15d. a day and his food; I think it +came to about £2. + +15,847. Did you give him a great deal more in goods, according to +the price which was charged to you for them?-Yes. I gave him +six yards of cloth for jacket, and other things. + +15,848. I see there is a lot of tobacco entered in your book about +1863?-Yes; that was for the men who were working at the house. + +15,849. When was the house finished?-It is about eight years in +October since it was done. + +15,850. I see there is some tobacco in December 1864. Was your +house finished before then?-No. It was finished outside, but not +inside. We went into it in October, but the windows were not in, +and it was two years before I was able to get the flooring put in +one of the ends of it. + +15,851. Did you give him a little tobacco every now and then until +it was finished?-Yes; but he got other things besides tobacco. + +15,852. Does that account for the entries of tobacco in August and +September 1865 in your book?-Clark was paid by that time, but I +had to get my house thatched. + +15,853. Was it not to pay him that you got that tobacco?-It was +either to pay him or some one else who was working for me. I did +not have any money; and when any one did any job for me, I had +to pay them in some way or other. + +15,854. What did you give them besides tobacco?-I sometimes +had a few dishes that they required, and they took them or tea. + +15,855. Does that account for there being so many entries of tea in +your book?-Yes. I got wool and potatoes for tea. + +15,856. At the settlement in July last there was a balance due by +you to Mr. Laurenson?-Yes. + +15,857. Have you not been working to him since?-I was not able +to work. + +15,858. About a month ago you got a notice from him that you +would be summoned to court unless you paid the balance of your +debt, 14s. 31/2d?-Yes; but I did not expect that I should have had +anything to pay. + +15,859. Did you think the balance was in your favour?-Yes, I +expected that. + +15,860. But you were running up an account, and you did not +know?-Yes, but that was not my blame. I always wanted a +settlement; and if he had paid me for my work and my goods, I +would not have been due him anything. + +15,861. When did you leave home?-I left home on Thursday, and +came by the steamboat. I did not go on board of her at Ollaberry +until Saturday night, but I had left home two days before, and had +to wait for her. + +15,862. How old are you?-I was fifty-two in July. + +15,863. You are not in good health, and you are not able to walk +a long distance?-No. I cannot walk far on account of the +rheumatics. + +15,864. Have you any idea when you will get home?-No. + +15,865. Do you intend to go back by the steamboat if you can?-If +the steamboat goes I will go with her but if not, I will have to stay +until the packet comes back from Northmaven. + +<Mr Guthrie>.-I have to give notice that I do not think at present +that I shall summon any more witnesses to appear in Shetland; but +there will be a meeting at half-past nine o'clock, and if any one +wishes to make any statement, or to bring forward any additional +evidence, he will then have an opportunity of doing so. + +<Adjourned>. + + +LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31, 1872. + +JOHN GATHERER, examined, + +15,866. You have been for a long time Collector of Customs at +Lerwick?-I have. Before questioning me, I would like if you +would allow me to make a brief preliminary remark or two which +may render clear any after-evidence which you may call upon me +to give. At the time when certain gentlemen tendered their +evidence on Shetland truck before the Commission at Edinburgh, I +read the brief, necessarily imperfect, and probably inaccurate +reports of the same which appeared in the Edinburgh weekly +papers. I also read some articles and letters which appeared in the +newspapers at the time. About seven months ago I read, as printed +I think in a Parliamentary blue book, the report of Mr Hamilton to +the Board of Trade about the discharge of the Shetland whaling +seamen at this port. I have never read the report since. On my +return from the, mainland last summer, I found a gentleman had +left in my house a copy of the evidence, as [Page 400] printed <in +extenso> in a pamphlet form. I think the pamphlet contained a +report of Mr. Arthur Hay's adverse evidence; but I had not time to +read it before I posted the pamphlet to a friend in the south. I +therefore never read his evidence. Beyond a brief newspaper +paragraph, which I read recently, I literally know nothing as to +the evidence which has been given under the present inquiry. I +purposely kept aloof from the same, and from inquiring about +the same. I appear here very reluctantly on the present occasion, +and, as you are aware, I would not have appeared at all had I not +been cited. I have several reasons for this reluctance to appear: I +will mention two of them. I entertain very strong opinions +condemnatory of the truck system, which I believe prevails all +over Shetland; but I do not wish personally to have anything to do +with the matter, directly or indirectly. I think it is to be regretted +that the question as to the mode of paying the whaling seamen +should have been introduced at in the Edinburgh evidence, and +complicated by being mixed up with the general question of truck. +Both questions, I think, should have been treated separately, as +they are the subject of distinct laws and regulations, these laws +at the same time being administered by distinct departments. +From what I have already stated, you will see that I have a very +imperfect recollection of the statements in Mr. Hamilton's report, +but I recollect my impression of it at the time when I read it. It +was, that the statements in the report were essentially correct +representations of what had taken place at one time or other at +Lerwick. I have heard that some one has questioned the accuracy +of some portions of his report. It might be liable to misconception +in this respect. When he inspected my office, we talked generally +over the objectionable system that had so long prevailed here in +the mode of discharging and paying off the men. A great deal of +this must have been patent and notorious to Mr. Hamilton, as a +former resident in Shetland, and having subsequent intercourse +with the same; and he may not possibly, in his narrative of this to +the Board of Trade, have clearly separated some of the past and +the suppressed practices of the agents, and those of more recent +date. This would the more readily occur, as I have reason to +believe that at the time he prepared his report he was not aware +that I had over a number of years repeatedly and fully reported the +whole matter to the Board of Trade. I have here with me a report +relative to the discharge of whaling crews during the last year, and +some returns relative to the same, and for previous years, which I +hurriedly prepared with the view of sending to the Board of Trade +by the mail, which I expected would have sailed yesterday. When +preparing the same, I was not expecting I would have to give +evidence on the subject. I do not wish to hand in the documents, +but I may have occasion to refer to them. + +15,867. You showed me these returns last night, and allowed me +to see the report which you were sending to the Board of Trade?- +I did. + +15,868. You are satisfied, I presume, as to the substantial +correctness of these returns?-Yes, of my own report and the +returns. There is a difficulty in preparing them, from the time +that has elapsed; but, as you are aware, I have asked them to +verify the accuracy of them at the proper quarter. + +15,869. Subject to that verification, you believe these returns to be +correct?-Yes. They were prepared by myself and those in any +office from the records. + +15,870. Therefore, if any application should be made to the Board +of Trade afterwards for production of these returns under this +Commission, you have no objection to their being regarded as part +of your evidence given upon oath?-None; and in continuation of +the report, I will refer to the fact that I have been examined before +you. + +15,871. You are aware that before 1867 the wages of seamen +returning from Greenland voyages and landed in Shetland were +never paid at the Custom House?-In some cases they were, but +very seldom. + +15,872. Do you also know from your own observation, and from +what you heard at the time, that those seamen were generally +running large accounts with the agents, by whom they were +secured for these sealing and whaling voyages?-I was aware of +that from the statements of the seamen, themselves. + +15,873. In numerous cases?-Yes, in numerous cases. + +15,874. In almost every case?-I believe so. + +15,875. In what way did these statements come to be made to +you?-The seamen often came and complained to me that they +were not paid off. It may perhaps be proper to explain that at that +time, before the special Board of Trade regulations were issued, +the masters should have come and paid off the seamen. I may add +further, that I am aware that every means was taken by the agents +to keep the masters of the Peterhead and Dundee vessels from +coming and discharging their men in cases where it would have +been attended with no inconvenience. + +15,876. In what way did you become aware of that?-I got +numbers of letters from the masters stating that they were unable +to attend themselves with the men. These letters, so sent to me, +were often written by the agents, but signed by the masters. + +15,877. Did you know them to be in the handwriting of the +agents?-Yes, or of their clerks; and on inquiring at the captains +when they came back to engage men again, some of them told me +that the agents desired them to do so. + +15,878. Not to pay the men?-Yes, not to pay the men. In these +letters they stated that they often wished the men to appear, but +that they (the men) ran away home; which statement the men +subsequently told was incorrect. + +15,879. At that time, was the payment of these Greenland seamen +at Lerwick subject to the same general regulations which were in +force in other parts of the empire?-Yes. There were instructions +to shipping masters at that time. + +15,880. Were these the same regulations that are still in force in +other parts of the kingdom?-Yes. + +15,881. They are still in force everywhere, except in Lerwick?- +Yes. They are still in force, except in the case of Shetland, +Orkney, and the port of Stornoway. I may mention that the +procuring of seamen, by agents was at that time, and is still in +other places, illegal and punishable by fine-that is, according to +the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854. I believe the mode in which +they then acted would in the south be treated as crimping; and +allow me to say also, that the offence was rendered greater by the +fact of the agents being merchants and supplying the men with +goods. + +15,882. I believe there is a prohibition of that?-Yes; and even +licensed agents-that is, individuals licensed by the Board of +Trade-are not allowed to be so if they have dealings with the +men. That also is under the Act of 1854. + +15,883. The regulation at the time you speak of, although it +was not observed, was, that the men should be paid before the +superintendent?-Yes, then called the shipping master. + +15,884. That officer in this case was yourself, as there is no local +marine board here?-Yes. + +15,885. Why was the regulation not observed?-I am satisfied it +was from the agents desiring to secure the profits on the supplies +of the men. + +15,886. Had you made frequent endeavours to enforce compliance +with the Act?-Yes. + +15,887. You reported repeatedly to the Board of Trade on the +subject?-Yes. I may mention that, when I came here first, there +was an attempt on the part of some of the agents to introduce their +accounts into the men's accounts of wages, which I checked, and +which I believe then led to the shipmasters not appearing. + +15,888. That was many years ago?-It is a good many years ago. +In some cases these accounts were introduced under the name of +ship's accounts. + +15,889. Was not that done as late as 1867, after the regulations had +been modified? At least I was told that in some cases the agents +had introduced their own accounts among the captain's stores in +the ship's store-[Page 401]book?-I suspect that was done to a +trifling extent, although I should not like to say decidedly that it +was done. + +15,890. Was there not a clause introduced in 1868 by which +that was distinctly prohibited?-There were some defects in the +regulations, and they were altered in order to meet the attempts +made to evade them. + +15,891. Since 1867 has the system been materially changed by +the regulations then introduced by the Board of Trade?-Yes, +materially. + +15,892. The seamen now receive their full payment in cash in your +presence?-They do. + +15,893. Although not at the time required by the Act?-There is +great delay in many cases. + +15,894. That is said by several witnesses who have appeared here, +to be due to the reluctance of the men to come forward, and their +desire to go home and see their friends as soon as they are landed: +is that so?-To a great extent, I do not believe that. + +15,895. Have you any reasonable doubt that if the men were +instructed by the master of the ship and the agents to go at once +to the Custom House for payment of their wages, they would obey +that direction?-I believe from my knowledge of the men, that if +the master and the agent decidedly told them to go to the Custom +House after being landed, they would go. There is no doubt that +men after a long voyage are naturally anxious to get home; but if +they knew they had to be paid then, they would readily accede to +the request of the master and the agent. + +15,896. Is there any reason you can assign, from your acquaintance +with the practice in paying seamen's wages, why the accounts +should not be all ready within the time allowed by the law?-My +whole experience in the matter points to the fact that the agents are +unwilling to have a speedy settlement, and that unless compelled +they would never appear at the Custom House at all, or rather I +should say at the Mercantile Marine Office. + +15,897. Have you had occasion since 1868 to know that the +seamen are still incurring large accounts, or considerable accounts, +to the agents by whom they are secured?-I have endeavoured not +to be cognisant of any of their dealings; but I may add further, that +I believe, although the special regulations are outwardly and +nominally complied with the agents still secure their accounts +from the men for their supplies. + +15,898. You think there is still a security-a sort of virtual +impledgment of the men's wages although they are nominally +paid over in cash?-Yes. It may not be by agreement, but the +thing practically exists; and I never heard the agents conceal the +fact that the profit on the seamen's wages is the main inducement +to them in accepting the agency. That very fact, in my opinion, +renders the whole transaction irregular and illegal. Of course, that +is a matter of opinion. + +15,899. Have you had occasion to interfere while seamen were +settling wages with the clerk of the agent, in order to prevent +part of the money being retained for the payment of the agent's +account?-I may mention that the men, after being settled with at +the Custom House generally run down to the agent's office. I +know that, because I hear the men speaking about it, and the +agents, or rather the agents' clerks, telling them to go down to +the place. + +15,900. Have you frequently heard the men told to go down?- +Yes. The men sometimes blurt it out, and the agents' clerks are +not very much satisfied at their doing so; but the whole thing is so +well understood, that there is little concealment about it. + +15,901. You have frequently heard conversations on the subject, +showing that the men were expected to go down at once?-Yes; +and some of the clerks had the audacity to attempt to deduct the +amount at the office not later than last year. + +15,902. Who were these? Are they mentioned in your report?- +They are mentioned in my report to the Board of Trade. + +15,903. Do you know whether one consequence of the new +regulations has been, that the green hands engaged for the settling +and whaling voyages are much fewer now than they were before +1867?-I am not aware of the fact. My attention has never been +called to it. + +15,904. Are you prepared to say that there are not fewer green +hands engaged now than there were before 1867?-I cannot say +as to that. + +15,905. Your observation has not led you to think so?-No. The +idea never occurred to me. + +15,906. Have you had occasion to know whether the seamen have +been told by the masters or the agents since 1868 to attend at the +Shipping Office within the time required by law?-The special +regulations, unfortunately, do not define any time within which +they are to attend, and I have no doubt the agents know that fact. + +15,907. The three days do not apply under these regulations?- +That is a question that I should not like to give an opinion upon. + +15,908. The clause about the three days is quoted in the last head +of the regulations?-It is quoted there to show what the general +law is. + +15,909. But you have a doubt in your own mind as to whether it +applies here?-I may at once say that these special regulations +were a sort of compromise, and I am so far answerable for their +being framed, thinking that they would secure the men their +wages. My opinion now is, that it would have been better if the +Act had been enforced as it originally stood; and I believe the +thing will never be on a satisfactory footing as long as agents +who are merchants continue to act as agents. + +15,910. Is it not a benefit for the young men who are engaged +for the Greenland fishery, to be able to get their outfit from the +merchants on credit, as they do?-I think the same thing could be +secured by other and legitimate means. + +15,911. You know that the men get an advance note for the +amount of the first month's wages?-Yes; and after these +special regulations came into force, Laurenson & Co. were the +first who paid the men over the counter in cash. + +15,912. You are speaking now of the advances?-Yes, of the +advance note. Messrs. Hay latterly did the same; and Mr. Tait, I +think, did so this year for the first time. I recollect asking Mr. +Laurenson if he sustained any loss by treating the men with +confidence and giving them the money, and to the best of my +recollection he said he did not. + +15,913. But the outfit requires a larger sum than the advance +amounts to in any case?-Yes; but allotment notes would meet +that. That would give the relatives of the seamen an opportunity +of drawing the money in their absence. + +15,914. Are these the only means by which you think a young man +without an outfit could provide himself with one?-I think any +merchant would give the seamen credit, if they were certain that +the present agents did not enjoy the monopoly of giving them their +supplies. I may further state, that I believe a gentleman intends to +a certain extent to act its agent for some of the vessels this year, to +pay the men's advances in cash, and to allow their allotment notes +to be paid by a banker or some disinterested party. If that system +were introduced, it would knock the whole irregularity on the +head. Such is my individual opinion. + +15,915. Do you think the gentlemen who now act as agents would +have any hesitation, or that any danger would arise to them, in +supplying goods to the men, if they were not acting as agents, but +merely as merchants?-I think they are not entitled to enjoy a +monopoly of the trade. + +15,916. But supposing they were not acting its agents at all, but +merely as merchants, do you think they would hesitate, or that they +would incur any risk by advancing outfits to the men its they now +do, but without the security or the quasi security which they now +possess?-In that case the men's custom would be distributed over +all the town. They would give their custom to the merchants they +were partial to, instead of being confined to the shop of the agent +who engages them, as at present. + +[Page 402] + +15,917. But would those who got their custom incur any serious +risk in giving them their supplies and outfits on credit?-They +would be liable to the same risk that every merchant who embarks +in trade is subject to. No man can deal with another on credit +without being liable to a risk; but at present the merchants +practically enjoy a monopoly of the seamen's supplies. + +15,918. The seamen, however, could go to any other shop in town +for their supplies if they chose?-At present they could, but I +have no doubt they would offend the agent by doing so. If they +repudiated his right to secure his own account, that would put an +end to the thing, because the main inducement for the agents to act +as they do is that they have the supplying of the men with goods. + +15,919. Have you anything else to say?-Nothing. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled. + +15,920. You formerly gave evidence before the Commissioners +under the Act of 1870, in Edinburgh?-I did. + +15,921. Are there any points on which you wish to give further +information?-I merely wish to reaffirm all that I previously +stated. From what the people say, the only thing that seems to +require explanation, is with regard to the value of the worsted or +wool for the making of a shawl. + +15,922. You refer to question 44,290: 'I know for a fact that the +worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to +3s. They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they +get it in goods that will be about 4s.; and they get from 25s. to 30s. +for it?'-Yes. The question was intended to apply to half square +shawls and haps selling at from £1 to 30s., according to the +verdancy of the animal that was buying it. It takes about sixteen +hundreds to make a hap, and the worsted will be worth. from 2d. +to 21/2d. It will take from sixteen to seventeen hundreds to make a +half square fine shawl, and the worsted of it will be worth about +4d.; and these shawls are sold at from 18s. to 30s., according as +customers can be got for them. + +15,923. Are haps often sold at so high a price as 30s?-No, not +haps; they are sold up to about £1. That has been my experience. +I may say that I have been in shops, when the first question asked +before a price was stated was, whether the article was for the +person's self or for a stranger; that is to say, was it to be sold to a +person in the country, or was it to go away outside, because in +these cases they have two different prices. I have likewise been in +shops when, if there were any of the knitting girls there selling +shawls or other articles, the merchant would take very good care to +state the price to his other customers in the lowest possible voice, +and at the farthest possible distance from these girls; and I have +been repeatedly told that they will occasionally put the price upon +a piece of paper, so as not to let the knitters hear it. That I say in +contradiction to the assertion which is made, that the merchants +sell the hosiery articles at the same price as that at which they +nominally buy them. Again, I want to point out that in most cases +all the worsted that the hosiery merchants in Lerwick dealt in up to +the last year was bought from the country merchants for goods, +and therefore that even that nominal value did not represent the +true value of the articles. I produce an account containing +transactions amounting to £146; it is all balanced by goods, which +were entirely worsted, up to £1, 3s. 10d. The only item of cash I +find in the account is 15s. Lately, however, they have been +obliged and are ready to buy the worsted for cash, because they +cannot do without it, and the supply of worsted is decreasing. + +15,924. You are speaking of Shetland worsted?-Yes. I may +mention also that that estimate of the value of the worsted for a +shawl was intended by me to embrace the Yorkshire worsted, +or what they call the Pyrenees, although I don't suppose either +the worsted or the wool ever saw the Pyrenees: it is made in +Yorkshire. + +15,925. Are you speaking, in both these cases of haps and of +shawls, of articles made of Shetland worsted?-All the haps +are made from Shetland worsted, the coarser worsted. + +15,926. You said in that answer to which you have referred, 'They +nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in +goods that will be about 4s.:' is not that a little too strong?-I +don't think it. + +15,927. That assumes that the charge for the goods is about 100 +per cent. above the cost price, or rather it assumes that it is 100 +per cent. above the price at which the worker of the shawl ought +to get these goods, which would not be the cost price, but the +retail price?-No, I don't mean that. I mean to say that if these +merchants were to go to the proper market, they could buy their +goods at such a rate that they would be able to sell them at 100 per +cent. profit; but I know that a great many of these merchants go to +second-hand houses to buy. Whether it is for the object of getting +long credits, or what it is, I don't know; but I know from the +parties who come here that a great many of them are not first-class +houses. + +15,928. Have you any personal knowledge as to the wholesale +houses with which these merchants deal for their goods?-Do +you mean, do I know who comes down here? + +15,929. Yes?-Yes, I do. + +15,930. From what source is your knowledge derived?-From +their travellers, and from seeing their goods coming down. + +15,931. You are acquainted with the travellers of those houses?- +Most assuredly. + +15,932. And you know that they are not wholesale houses in the +strict sense of the term, but middle-men?-Exactly. I say that the +merchants here could go to much better quarters for their goods if +they were to put their business on a proper footing. Wholesale +houses in Aberdeen are not in the same position as wholesale +houses in London. + +15,933. Do London houses send travellers here?-No; but if the +merchants' business was on a proper foundation they could get +introductions to these houses, and do their business at a better rate. + +15,934. Is there any other point on which you wish to make an +addition or explanation upon your former evidence?-It has +been generally remarked by fishcurers, that one reason why they +could not give up the present system of dealing with their men +was because the men would not have the means of getting boats +and fittings for the fishing, whilst at the same time the principal +fish-curers assert that they do pay enormous sums of money to the +men. For instance, I have seen from the papers that it has been +stated by Messrs. Hay & Co. that in the island of Whalsay alone +they paid £1300 last year, whilst the total value of the boats and +fishing gear there cannot be over £400. Therefore it is absurd to +say that the men would not be able to supply themselves with +boats. Again, it has been stated and maintained that the Shetland +men as a race are intelligent, and in one sense they are. Indeed +their intelligence is so acute that the employers are ashamed, as +I have no doubt you have found in the evidence, to give them +accounts. They are rather afraid that their acuteness would +discover too much in them, but in addition to that they tell you it +would be impossible for the men to divide the produce of the +fishing among themselves if it was paid in cash at the station, +because it would require a man conversant with accounts; so that +it is an absurdity to say that they are an intelligent race, and yet +cannot adjust the proportions which would go to the different men +in a boat's crew if they were paid in cash. + +15,935. Probably they would be sufficiently acute to adjust their +accounts if they were accustomed to do so like other people in +other parts of the world?-I say they are quite capable of doing +that. They are quite capable of looking after their own accounts if +these were [Page 403] produced to them. There is another thing I +should like to point out with regard to the agriculture of Shetland +as compared with that of other places. I am sorry I have come +away without the statistics, but if you look into them you will find +that we have a much larger number of stock in Shetland with a +rental of only £30,000, than Orkney with a rental of £60,000, from +which I deduce that it is a far greater object to the merchants and +proprietors here to continue the people as fishers upon the present +system, than to put the land upon a legitimate and proper footing. + +15,936. In what way do you arrive at that inference?-The land +is under-rented for the purpose of binding the men to continue +as fishermen for their employers. A great deal of the land is in +outsets, and these outsets were originally set at the mere interest +upon the house that was built, or upon any enclosures that +were made. That was done for the purpose of procuring extra +fishermen, and the system has been continued to this day. By +looking at the valuation roll, you would find an immense +difference between the rents of merks land and the rents of outsets. + +15,937. I don't suppose that any proprietor who employs his men +in fishing would deny that if he ceased to do so the rents of his +tenants must be raised?-I rather think they do deny that. + +15,938. I have had admissions made to that effect in the evidence +which has been given before me?-I have heard none of the +evidence that has been taken; but I am glad to hear that they are +thinking of turning over a new leaf, and admitting even that they +are wrong. + +15,939. I don't say it has been a general admission, but that +admission has been made by one proprietor at least?-I say that +it ought to be a general admission. Another thing I would mention +is, that the people with their present beliefs are unfortunately too +subservient to come forward and frankly give full evidence upon +the matter, and I would give an instance of the sub-serviency and +illiterateness that prevails among them. I received the other day +a report from two men, in which they use such language as +'resources of science and art,' and one of them was styled the +superintendent, and the other the manager, of the working +department of the largest establishment in this place for the +manufacture of blubber. One of these men could hardly sign +his own name, while the other had to sign with cross. That fact I +mention in order to show that these men are under the belief that +they are bound to do in most cases as their superiors may dictate +to them. + +15,940. Has it come within your knowledge that many people +have been afraid to come forward and give evidence before this +Commission?-Yes; a great many people have told me they would +not do it. + +15,941. Do you refer to fishermen?-To fishermen and to females +too. I may mention also that I have been instrumental in starting a +large company here upon the limited liability principle, the first +object of which is stated to be to afford to the people of Shetland +an opportunity of prosecuting their fishings free from the truck +system. + +15,942. Is that a company for prosecuting the Faroe fishing or the +ling fishing?-It is to be for all. It is to commence this year with +the Faroe fishing. + +15,943. Did you send out any vessels in 1871?-No, we did +not begin in 1871, except with a single vessel in which I was +interested, and which we sent out to see what we could do with it. + +15,944. Did that vessel belong to the company?-No, not to this +company. The company has been formed in Glasgow, of +gentlemen who are desirous of putting down this iniquitous +system. + +15,945. Do you propose to carry on the fishing with out any +shop?-Yes. + +15,946. And to pay all in cash?-Yes. + +15,947. Do you propose to pay by annual settlements?-The men +still prefer going upon the old system of payments; but in order to +provide for their outfit, as they call it, we propose to pay it in cash +the moment the vessel leaves the harbour with them on board, and +we intend to afford to their families an advance of what is fair and +reasonable to keep them while the men are away. We are quite +prepared to run all that risk against a bad fishing, and we will pay +them the balance in cash at any moment they choose after they +come home. + +15,948. Are the advances you are to make to be in cash also?- +Yes; they are to be in cash, not in goods. + +15,949. Do you think it will be possible for the fishing business +to be conducted, perhaps not immediately, but shortly after this, +without the fishermen requiring advances either in cash or +goods?-Certainly; and I say that if that system could be adopted +now it could be carried on, looking to the amount of money that +has been accumulated on deposit by the people in the country +generally. + +15,950. Then why do you propose in your enterprise to make +advances in cash?-Just to suit the humour of the people, until +they come to see for themselves that such advances are not +necessary. + +15,951. I suppose you want to begin cautiously?-We do, and +to work them into the system gradually. In fact we wish them +eventually to take shares in these vessels, and to get vessels and +boats for themselves. + +15,952. But in the arrangement you propose, so far as the Faroe +fishing is concerned, the men will be sharesmen?-They are +sharesmen in the produce, but they have no shares in the vessel; +but I propose that they should eventually have an interest in the +vessel, and we are quite willing to give them an interest in any +vessel they choose. We are also desirous to get better boats for +them in the ling fishing. It has been stated likewise that the people +could not get their supplies at the stations if there was a cash +system, as there would not be shops there, because the whole +amount that is sold at the stations in the course of a year is merely +nominal; and to show that, it is mentioned that it is usually an +ordinary splitter who attends to the shop, or the fish factor. That +man is not in the shop any time during the rest of the year, and it is +said that there is only a very limited amount of goods sent there, +being intended only for the supply of the men when they go out to +sea. If that is the case, it would be no great hardship if these goods +were not there, but I say that they would be there. + +15,953. Do you think the men could easily take their own supplies +with them?-Quite easily; and wherever the carcase is, there will +the eagles be gathered. If there is money to be got there, you will +be sure to find shops there too. + +15,954. In what way were the men paid who went to the Faroe +fishing in your vessel last year?-They were paid by shares the +same as they had hitherto been, and this [producing it] is a copy of +their settlement. The name of the vessel is the 'Lily of the Valley.' + +15,955. I see that this account of the settlement is drawn up in the +form which is ordinarily used in Shetland?-I don't know, but I +suppose it is. + +15,956. It shows the amount of fish caught, and then the +deductions, and finally the division?-Yes. + +15,957. I see no deduction for commission?-There is no +commision. + +15,958. That is usually, but not universally, taken by the owner?- +I don't know why it should be. I think it is hardly fair if the men +are doing their duty that the owner should not do his also, and take +the fish to the best market. + +15,959. You think the owner should be considered to be paid for +that by his share of the produce?-I think so. I also produce a +copy of our account for the expense of salt and curing. + +15,960. Does this show the actual expenditure incurred by you in +curing the fish brought in by the vessel?-Yes. + +15,961. Was it arranged with the men that they should be charged +only the actual expense incurred for salt and curing, and not an +estimate according to the usual system?-Yes. + +15,962. Is it not usual in Shetland that the expense of curing is +deducted according to an estimate of 47s. 6d. and 50s., or 52s. 6d., +as the case may be?-No; I understand it is the cost that is +charged. The agreement [Page 404] with our men was that they +were to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after +deducting the expenses of curing, salt, etc., and master's premium +10s. per ton, and mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and that they +should receive 8 lbs. weight of bread per man per week, and also +9d. per score to each man for all the fish caught by him, one half to +be paid by the owners, and the other half by the crew. + +15,963. What was the return to the owners upon their share of that +vessel last year?-22 per cent. + +15,964. The total share payable to each man is shown in the +account you have produced?-Yes. Their half share amounted to +£188, 9s. 6d., but then they had wages in the succeeding voyage as +specified in the agreement. + +15,965. Is there any other point on which you wish to make any +additional remark?-I may say that when I was south lately, I saw +letters from some of the whaling agents here, which plainly +indicated that the commission of 21/2 per cent. paid to them for the +engagement of seamen for the seal and whale fishing, would not, +in their opinion, afford sufficient remuneration to them. + +15,966. Have you got these letters?-No; but I saw them, and I +was asked by the owners in the south if I could put them in the +way of getting an agent who would consider himself sufficiently +remunerated by that commission. I was first asked if I considered +21/2 per cent. paid them for their trouble. I said certainly; and I +then engaged with Mr. Scott in Lerwick to act as agent for these +vessels. Their previous agents did not consider that they would be +remunerated sufficiently unless they got a full opportunity of +trading with the men. + +15,967. Is Mr. Scott to act as agent without having any opportunity +of trading with the men?-Yes. The advance will be paid in cash +at the time of the engagement, and the allotment notes will be paid +at the bank. + +15,968. Did you make that arrangement in consequence of what +the shipowners in the south said to you?-Yes. That is an +experiment which Mr. Scott is about to make; but there is no +doubt about the result of it, because 21/2 per cent. is a very liberal +commission for doing little or nothing. + +15,969. Are you now in the management of the chromate of iron +quarries in Unst?-Yes. + +15,970. I understand the wages there are not paid in truck?-No; +they have not been since I had anything to do with the quarries. + +15,971. Are you aware that that was the case formerly-Yes; it +was truck from beginning to end. + +15,972. Did you find that to be the case when you undertook the +management of the quarries?-Yes; after I had commenced the +thing I was asked by the man who had previously trucked them if I +would allow the workmen to be settled with in the office, so that +they could get them into the shop immediately afterwards. + +15,973. In what capacity had that person trucked them? Was +he secretary or manager for the company?-They had a sort of +anomalies there for managing the company. This one was +supposed to be paymaster, and then they had a manager. The +paymaster was a director, and he had a shop too. + +15,974. Did you ascertain that the men had been paid at that shop +by lines or tickets?-There was no payment at all. Their accounts +were adjusted from time to time, the amount of goods which they +had got was taken off, and the balance was handed to them. It was +done openly and above-board; the man himself told me about it. + +15,975. But accounts are always kept and settled in Shetland +without any attempt of concealment?-I think so. I never had any +difficulty in discovering it. I may add further, from my experience +as chairman of three parochial boards, that since the system of +truck and paying with lines was done away with in the parishes I +am connected with, the rates have been reduced considerably. + +15,976. How do you account for that?-Because the people have +got money. It used to be considered an acknowledged fact, that for +a pauper's shilling, if they brought a shilling to the shop, they +would get 14d. worth of goods. The money was able to go much +further, because there was wholesome competition between the +different merchants to get a share of the money. + +15,977. I understand Major Cameron's tenants throughout +Shetland are at liberty to fish for any fish-curer they please?- +Yes, for any one they please. + +15,978. I think in your previous evidence you referred to the lease +to Spence & Co. in Unst, and expressed a sort of regret that it had +ended in a monopoly?-Yes. + +15,979. There has been a good deal of evidence given before me to +the effect that a monopoly of that kind is beneficial, and that it is +wholesome, mainly in preventing small shops from springing up in +large numbers, and that it requires a large capitalist to develop the +resources of the country properly: is that so?-That is perfectly +true: but a merchant or any one who says that should recollect that +except for the capital of the poor fishermen they could not carry on +the business themselves. + +15,980. Are you aware whether the fish-merchants generally are +men of large capital?-I should say that they cannot be, from this +fact, that they would readily pay the men in cash which they get, +and which in the month of August must amount to about £40,000 +due to the men, if they had it. + +15,981. Is that merely an inference which you draw from the +practice which prevails?-Yes. + +15,982. But have you any personal knowledge on the subject?- +Yes. Perhaps it would not be fair to mention the names of the +firms, but I know several firms who have commenced within the +last few years with no capital, and who are carrying on a business +which in the south would require an enormous capital. I know it is +alleged by merchants generally that they do not consider they are +trading upon the poor man's capital. + +15,983. I suppose you speak of the merchants trading upon the +poor man's capital, in this sense, that they do not pay for the fish +which is in their hands until about the time when they get their +returns?-Exactly; that they neither are merchants nor agents. +They are not merchants, because they do not pay the men for the +raw material, and they are not agents, because they do not give +them honestly their account sales. + +15,984. Are you aware of the practice existing in Shetland, +that the proprietors in many cases receive their rents from the +fish-curers?-Yes. During the first year or two that I settled for +Major Cameron, I got many cheques from the fish-curers. + +15,985. Was that for the whole amount of rent due by a number +of fishermen?-Yes, either that, or each man would bring his +separate cheque; but in a great many cases in Shetland the +fish-curer just pays it slump, or what is called guarantees it. + +15,986. That is not an actual guarantee; it is merely an +arrangement by which the fisherman, for the convenience +of all parties, is debited in the fish-curer's book with the +amount of rent which the fish-curer pays to the landlord?- +True; but in it great many cases, as I have previously stated, I +think there is a chronic balance against the men, which balance, +I think, if looked into, would generally be found to be composed +to a great extent of advances of rent for the next year, which +practically thirls the men on to them, but which has no right to +go through their books at all. + +15,987. Are you aware whether the fish-curer is induced to make +that advance of rent by the consideration that he holds his own +premises from the landlord, and might be charged a higher rent, or +lose some other advantage, if he did not do so?-Most assuredly. +There is no doubt that, if they were thrown open, the rents of the +business premises would double themselves throughout the +country. + +15,988. Have you known any instance in which the landlord +favoured the merchant so far as to refuse to allow other businesses +to be begun upon his estates?-Yes. + +15,989. Had that happened in the case of Major Cameron's +estates?-Not so far as I know, and no one [Page 405] has ever +asked it. In fact we have business premises lying unlet just now. + +15,990. Do you know that that has happened elsewhere?-I do; in +more cases than one. + +15,991. Is it not virtually the case in Unst, that no premises are +allowed there except those of Spence Co.?-I don't know about +that, because Spence & Co.'s principal premises are upon +Henderson's property. + +15,992. Were you not aware of Spence & Co. removing a +merchant who had premises on the property of Major Cameron, +which was under tack to them?-No; I think that was on a +neighbouring property. + +15,993. Was that the case of a house that was shifted bodily across +the road?-It was not shifted bodily. The man put up a new place +altogether. + +15,994. Was that on Major Cameron's property?-No; neither in +the one case nor in the other. I think he came off the Greenfield +property, and he built a place upon the Earl of Zetland's lands. + +15,995. Was there no one removed from Major Cameron's +property in the neighbourhood of Uyea Sound, by Spence & +Co.?-I don't think there was. There was a man there with a +lease of land who kicked up a row with us about a pier and other +things of kind, whose nephew, under his name was keeping a +shop, and we distinctly told him that he must turn his attention to +something else; that if he would use the house for a lodging-house +or something of that kind he could stay, but that we would not +allow him to do it under these circumstances. + +15,996. Did he put up a shop elsewhere?-Yes. They built a new +place to the west of Baltasound. + +15,997. What were their names?-Isbister. If I am not +misinformed, I think these parties are still carrying on the shop +at Uyea Sound, conducted by a man Donald Johnston; at least I +saw a boatload of goods coming ashore there, and on inquiry I +was told they were for Isbister's shop. + +15,998. Do you think such an arrangement as you have made with +Spence & Co. is in any sense different as respects the interest of +the men from that by which a proprietor cures himself, and +employs his own tenants in the fishing?-In the way it is carried +out, I don't think there is very much difference; but had it been +carried out in the way that was intended and promised, it would +have been very different. You must bear in mind that I don't think +it is for the interests of the working people in Shetland to have +scattald, and therefore it was intended that each man should have a +farm for himself, and a lease of it, and they have a right to that +under the lease to Spence & Co. Had they stuck to that, or were +they to stick to that, they would be quite independent; but as they +persist in believing that the scattalds are for their benefit, and as +Spence & Co. have a right to these scattalds, it practically binds +them to the merchants. + +15,999. I understand that Spence & Co, from their lease, have +absolute power to remove tenants if they don't comply with the +rules and regulations which, are appended to the lease?-I don't +think so, not without our sanction. I know that we don't think so. + +16,000. That, if it is so, would give them an absolute power to +compel the men to fish for them, just as much as when a landlord +intimates to his tenants that they must fish for his tacksman on +pain of removal. Assuming that they have that power, is not that +the effect of it?-Assuming that they have that power, that would +be the effect of it, but I don't think they have that power. It was +never intended that they should have it, and I don't think they have +it. I hold that we alone have power to turn off the tenants, and +under the lease we only have power to bring in tenants. + +16,001. The effect of the lease and the regulations appended to it, +so far as I have been able to examine it, appears to be, that if a +sub-tenant fails to comply with the rules and regulations appended +to the lease, he may be removed by the lessee?-No, we quite +deny that. + +16,002. How do you reserve power under the lease to deal with +the sub-tenant who does not comply with the rules?-We exclude +assignees and sub-tenants, except as after-mentioned. + +16,003. Perhaps the shortest way of dealing with that matter will +be, that I should have an opportunity of reading the lease or it copy +of it at leisure?-Certainly, but I may say decidedly that it was not +intended that Spence & Co. should have such a power, and it is not +being acted on, because we are now in process of warning four or +five tenants who will not come under the rules. It was intended +distinctly that we reserved all our present tenants, irrespective of +Spence & Co. altogether. + +16,004. But are not the powers with which Spence & Co. are +invested with regard to peats and other matters, really such as +to compel the tenants to remove if they do not comply with the +rules?-No. The peats are reserved in our hands, for the purpose +of compelling them to take care of the peat-banks. + +16,005. That is not Mr. Sandison's reading of the lease?-I cannot +help Mr. Sandison's reading of it but I am certain that it is the +correct reading, from the fact that there was a very considerable +correspondence carried on about Spence & Co. being allowed to +put in certain tenants during the first two or three years of their +lease. They have only right to put in new tenants within a certain +time and after that they have no right to put anybody into a vacant +farm. + +16,006. You were speaking of poor-rates: do you think there has +been no reduction of poor-rates in Shetland from any other cause +than the reduction of truck?-Not in my opinion. + +16,007. Have there not been better crops and better seasons +lately?-Yes, but that does not reduce the number of paupers. +The number of paupers has been increased rather than reduced. + +16,008. But if there are good seasons with regard to crops and +fishings, may not a greater number of paupers be maintained by +their own friends, and fewer people fall upon the rates?-That +might be so; but if the same number of paupers are on the roll, and +if the allowances are practically the same, it must follow that the +rates should be stationary. + +16,009. Your statement is that the number of paupers has not been +reduced?-It has not been reduced. It has been rather increased. I +may mention that in Unst there has been a decrease from deaths, +but not anything to account for a reduction of the rates from 8s. to +2s. 6d. + +16,010. With regard to the price of shawls, when you spoke of a +shawl being worth 25s. or 30s., did that apply to the merchants +who purchase shawls for goods, or to private dealers?-I referred +to what the shawls would be sold for to private individuals in the +town. + +16,011. The prices which you name for shawls are not the prices +that were paid by merchants?-No; but with regard to that I may +mention that I have heard merchants from the south say that when +they sold goods to merchants here, in a great many cases they got +goods back. There is a man named Saint in Aberdeen who deals +considerably with the merchants here, and perhaps he would be +able to give evidence as to whether he does not prefer to pay in +cash, but that to give goods is insisted upon by the merchants here. + +16,012. Did you mean to say in an earlier part of your evidence +that the merchants here get supplies of goods mostly from +second-hand houses?-I mean to say that they could get them +from better houses if they chose. + +16,013. Would you say that J. & R. Morley & Co.; Copestake, +Moore, & Co.; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Fletcher & Sons, +Manchester; J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; +Mann, Byars, & Co. Glasgow; George Peek, Manchester, Vesey +& Sons, London; Allan & French, London, were second-class +houses?-No; but I should like to know the extent of business +which the merchants here do with them, and whether they deal +wholesale with them or not. + +16,014. Would you be surprised to hear that Shetland merchants +engaged in the hosiery trade obtain the bulk of their goods from +such houses as these?-I should say that perhaps that was the +truth, but I should like to know the whole truth about the matter, +because [Page 406] these houses, large as they may be, have +certain clearances occasionally, which it may suit a people such as +those of Shetland to take. I know at least one instance of a large +quantity of that class of goods coming down in the steamer, and +being damaged by a cask of porter being burst upon them, and +a claim was made upon the Leith and Clyde Shipping Co. for +something like 50 per cent. of profit, because it was a job lot +which had been bought from big houses of that kind. + +16,015. But I suppose there are job lots bought by almost every +house at times?-Yes, but that has been the system here; in fact it +has been stated by people in these big businesses, that they did get +rid of their over-season's goods in that way. + +16,016. I suppose over-season's goods come to all parts of the +rural districts of Scotland?-I am not aware of that, but they may +do so. + +16,017. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing that I am +aware of. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLES OLLASON, examined. + +16,018. You are a member of the firm of Charles Ollason & Son, +bootmakers, Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,019. Did you receive that letter [showing] from Mr. +Williamson?-Yes. [The following letter was put in:-] +'Haggersta, Jan. 20th 71.' + 'Messrs. Charles Ollason & Son. + 'Dear Sirs,-I am sorry to say that by some misunderstanding I +did not get the wages that I expected to get; for instead of a 3/4th I +only got a 1/2 share, and therefore instead of £18 I only got £12. I +was due Mr. Stove £4 from the year that I was at the fishing from +him, and he handed in that bill against me to Mr. Irvine, who +retained that for him, so in that way I had nothing to get at all. +Therefore I am sorry to say that I cannot pay the 15s. that I am due +you for the boots that I got in August, and I beg that you will wait +till the turn of the season, and then I hope that I will be able to pay +you, for I am signed to go in the 'Olive' as a sharesman. If you +cannot wait till then, you will be so good as to let me know. You +will make out a bill, and I will sign it and hand it in to Mr. Irvine, +and let it be marked against me, and then you will be sure of your +money then-for it is entirely out of my power to pay you any +other way just now. I beg that you will comply with my request, as +I can't do better.-Your humble Debtor, + + 'M. Williamson, + 'Haggersta, + 'Whiteness.' + +16,020. Was that letter written to you by him in answer to a +demand for payment of your account?-Yes. + +16,021. Were you surprised to get a letter of that kind explaining +the reasons why your account was not paid?-We were not very +much surprised, for we believed the facts to be just as he stated +them. + +16,022. Did you think it a reasonable enough explanation he was +not able to pay you?-Yes; it was reasonable enough for him. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled. + +16,023. I now show you Messrs. Hay & Co.'s store ledger, kept by +William Halcrow, their storekeeper here: was Halcrow the party +referred to in the report which you mentioned in your evidence?- +If Messrs. Hay & Co. say he is their superintendent, he is the same +individual. + +16,024. Is Messrs. Hay & Co.'s the largest establishment of that +kind in Lerwick?-I understand so. + +16,025. And the party mentioned in the report describes himself as +superintendent of the largest establishment in this place?-Yes, +general superintendent, and the other is described as the manager +of the working department. The general superintendent is the one +who signs his name, and the other is the one who signs with a +cross, and they are the parties who speak about the resources of +science and art. + +16,026. Is the book I now show you kept in a fair enough +mercantile hand?-Fair enough. + +16,027. Would, you be surprised to hear that it was kept by +William Halcrow?-I would not. The reason why I mentioned +this matter at all was to show the subserviency of the people in +Shetland,-that they are accustomed to do what they are bidden,- +that they are ready to sign their names to what they really cannot +understand, if they think it is doing a favour to any one above +them. + +16,028. Do you think Halcrow was incapable of understanding +such a phrase as the resources of science and art?-I think so, as it +is applied here; because I may mention that in the correspondence +which passed before, and which refers to the same parties, they +said they did not know that whales had skins. + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ARTHUR LAURENSON, recalled. + +16,029. I understand you have heard the evidence which has been +given by Mr. Walker with regard to the merchants in Lerwick, and +that you wish to make some explanation in regard to it?-I have +not heard it, but the substance of it has been reported to me since I +entered the room. I have been told that he said that the merchants +in Lerwick buy from second-class houses, and pay for their goods +by consignments of hosiery. I wish to refute that, so far as I am +concerned; and I refer to Messrs. J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; +Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; John +Clapperton & Co., Glasgow, and Geo. Peek & Co., Manchester, +as a proof that I deal with first-class houses. + +16,030. Are these the only houses with which you deal?-No; I +deal with a good many more. + +16,031. Are there any houses from which you get portions of your +goods which might be characterized as second-class houses?-No. + +16,032. Is it the case that you ever get job lots or over-seasons +goods?-Never, unless in the ordinary way of trade. Perhaps an +article may be shown to me by a traveller occasionally, but only +one pattern out of fifty which may be described as a job lot. + +16,033. You do not get in a larger proportion of these goods than +other dealers in other country towns?-No; I never bought a job +lot altogether in my life. We never pay by consignments of +hosiery. + +16,034. Is there anything further you wish to state?-At the +close of my last examination I wished to make objection to the +credibility of a witness. I was asked to state it privately, and I now +hand in paper with regard to it. [Produces paper.] + + +Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled. + +16,035. Do you wish to concur with Mr. Laurenson in the +statement which he has now made?-Yes. The only difference +is that I deal with more houses in London. + +16,036. The list of houses which I read from in putting a question +to Mr. Walker was furnished by you?-Yes; but it does not include +one half of the houses that I deal with. I wish also to say that I +have now been 25 years in business, and I never to this day +exchanged 2d. worth of hosiery goods for goods in the [Page 407] +south. I do not mean to say that I have not bought hosiery goods +for goods here, but I have never exchanged them in the south for +other goods.* + +16,037. Does any one present wish to give any further evidence?- +[No answer.] Then I adjourn this inquiry. I have to think the +Commissioners of Supply for the use of this room, which they +have kindly furnished to me; and I have also to return my thanks +to all parties in Shetland with whom I have met, for the courtesy +which I have received from them, and for the readiness which +they have shown in furnishing me with all information which I +required. + +*Mr. Linklater also, on the same day, sent the following +letter to the Commissioner, referring to the same subject:- + +LERWICK, 31st January 1872. + W. GUTHRIE, Esq. + +Sir,-I am sorry that I was absent when Mr. Walker in his +evidence before you today stated, as I have been told, that the +merchants here bartered their goods in exchange for drapery +goods from second-class warehouses in the south. I beg to state +that I have been thirty-seven years in business here, and have paid +cash for all the goods ever I bought, and beg to refer you to the +following houses from whom I get my goods.-I am, sir, yours +very respectfully, + +ROBERT LINKLATER. + +J. & W. Campbell & Co., Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald, +Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Anderson & Co., Glasgow; J. +Clapperton & Co., Glasgow; Chamberlain & Birrell, Glasgow; +John Howell & Co., St. Paul s, London; Fandel, Phillips, & Co., +Newgate Street, London; Hutton & Co., Newgate Street, London; +D. Hyam, Houndsditch, London; Copestake, Moore, & Co., +London; George Peek & Co, Manchester; Hall, Russell, & Co., +Bradford. + + +LERWICK: MONDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1872 + +<Present>-MR GUTHRIE. + +<Mr. Guthrie>.-As I have been detained here longer than I +expected, owing to the state of the weather, I have held this +sitting to-day in order to examine some witnesses who were +formerly suggested to me by gentlemen in Lerwick, and whom +I was not able to call before closing the previous sittings, and +also some others who I think may be useful in supplementing the +evidence already taken. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. JOAN WINWICK or FORDYCE, +examined. + +16,038. Do you live in Chromate Lane, Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,039. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is a pensioner. He was a +carpenter to trade, but he does nothing now. + +16,040. Do you knit worsted work?-Yes, I knit, but for myself +only. I knit with my own wool, and sell the goods. + +16,041. Have you never knitted with merchants' wool?-No. + +16,042. To whom do you generally sell your hosiery?-I always +sold it to Mr. Robert Sinclair since he became a merchant. I +always knit haps or coarse shawls. + +16,043. What do you pay for the worsted which you use in +knitting?-When I buy the worsted it is 2d. per hundred; but +when I buy the wool and spin it myself, it comes to be a great +deal dearer. We cannot get proper worsted to buy, and we have to +manufacture it with our own hands. + +16,044. Is the worsted which you buy at 2d. per hundred the kind +which you use for a hap of ordinary quality?-Yes. + +16,045. At what price do you sell a hap two yards in size made of +that worsted?-Perhaps about 10s. + +16,046. Have you any of these haps in hand just now?-No. + +16,047. Have you sold any lately?-No; I have not sold any this +winter. I have not been knitting this winter to sell. I have just +been doing things for my own family. + +16,048. What else have you knitted besides haps?-I have knitted +nothing but haps for a good while. Since I could not see to do +finer work I have been spinning worsted and making frocks for +my husband, and stockings and things of that sort. + +16,049. Where do you buy your worsted?-I have not bought +any worsted for a long time. I always bought the wool and spun +it myself, because I could not get the worsted to buy. + +16,050. Where did you buy your wool?-I buy skins from the +women who sell the sheep, and get the wool ru'ed off the sheep +when they are killed. + +16,051. Are there women who go about and sell wool in that +way?-They sell mutton, but they will sell wool to us when we +go to their houses and ask them for it. + +16,052. Do these women buy the whole sheep?-Yes, they buy +them alive; and when they have killed them, they sell the mutton +to any person in the town who will buy it. + +16,053. Are there many such women?-I suppose there are a few, +but I cannot say how many. + +16,054. Is that the way in which many people get their supply of +wool for spinning?-I think it is, because we cannot get wool in +any other way. + +16,055. How much wool do you buy at a time?-I have bought +10s. or 12s. worth at a time,-just the skin as I could get it. + +16,056. How much do you think you pay for the wool per lb. in +that way?-I have seen it cost me 2s. and 16d. and 18d.; but it has +been higher of late since the wool became so dear. + +16,057. Is not that a very high price for it?-Yes. + +16,058. Is it not more commonly about 1s. per lb.?-Yes. When I +came to Lerwick it was 1s., 8d., and 6d. + +16,059. Is it not still to be got at 1s. per lb.?-Perhaps it may be in +country places, where they have plenty of it; but I cannot get it for +1s. unless it is very coarse, and a great deal of refuse in it. + +16,060. How much wool does it take to make a hap two yards +square?-About 2 lbs. That would be 16 hundreds or cuts. + +16,061. Are you speaking all this time of a hap of the ordinary +quality?-Yes, the ordinary quality. + +16,062. Do you know what a woman gets for knitting a hap of that +kind when it is given out?-I cannot say exactly; but I think they +give some knitters for plain work only 2d. per hundred, or perhaps +a little more. That is what they say they get for knitting plain +work. + +16,063. Do they count the payment of the knitting by hundreds?-I +suppose some of them do, but I have never put out any to knit +myself, or taken any in to knit. + +16,064. Then for a hap like that, if there were 16 hundreds in it, +the knitter would get only 2s. 8d. for the knitting?-Yes; but I +think that for knitting borders they get a little more. It is for plain +frocks that they say they get 2d. per hundred. + +16,065. Are you always paid in goods for your work?-Mr. +Sinclair always gave me what I asked. When I asked a little +money I got it, and when I required goods for my family, such +as soap, soda, or tea, I got them too. + +16,066. But I suppose it was understood that you were to be paid +in goods?-Yes, that was the custom of the place; but he always +trusted me with anything I wanted, if I happened to be due him +something at times. + +[Page 408] + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. ROSINA DUNCAN or SMITH, +examined. + +16,067. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,068. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is turning an old man +now, but he was at the sea at one time. + +16,069. Has he got a pension?-No. + +16,070. Do you employ yourself in knitting?-I knit a little for my +own family. + +16,071. Have you given up knitting for other people-Yes. + +16,072. Did you knit for Mr. Sinclair at one time?-I sold him a +few haps last year. + +16,073. Did you sell him a great number before that-I did not; +but when I had any little things I sold them to Mr. Joseph Leask, +and got money articles for them. + +16,074. Did you ever sell so many as half a dozen to Sinclair?-I +cannot say, for I did not count them. The last one I sold was to +him. + +16,075. What did you get for it?-12s. + +16,076. How much wool was in it?-I cannot say, for I spun it +myself, and wrought it until it was done. + +16,077. Do you not know how many cuts of worsted were in it?- +No; I did not count them. + +16,078. What was the size of it?-I suppose it would be about two +yards. + +16,079. Was it made of fine wool or ordinary wool?-It was just +the ordinary wool that is used for haps. + +16,080. Were you paid in money or in goods for it?-I was paid +mostly in goods, but he gave me money without my asking for it. + +16,081. How much money did you get?-1s. or so. I could not +exactly say how much, but he gave me what I required. I got the +goods which I required, and he gave me that money, and he also +gave me tea, which was the same as money, because if I had had to +buy it I would have had to pay for it. + +16,082. Could you get money for the tea?-I did not sell it; I kept +it for my own use. + +16,083. Did you ever sell anything that you got for hosiery?-No. +I always required anything I got for my own family. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, examined. + +16,084. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,085. Do you do anything else?-I keep lodgers. They are +generally workmen, such as masons. + +16,086. Do you knit a good deal?-No; all that I do in that way is +very trifling. It is generally fine veils that I knit. + +16,087. Who do you sell them to?-Mr. Sinclair; I work for him; +he gives me the worsted. It is Scotch worsted that I get, but I don't +know the quality of it, nor the price. + +16,088. Have you got any of these veils in hand just now?-Yes, I +have a few that I am knitting. + +16,089. Do you knit with your own wool at all?-No, I only work +for him. + +16,090. How much do you get for knitting one of these veils?- +From 16d. to 1s., according to the quality as it is coarse or fine. + +16,091. Do you get more for knitting one of fine worsted than one +of coarse?-Yes. + +16,092. Will you bring one of the veils that you are knitting just +now and let me see it?-Yes, + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled. + +16,093. Do you live with your mother in Baker's Close, +Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,094. What do you do?-I sometimes knit, and sometimes sew; +but I mostly knit. My mother knits sometimes, and does the +house-work. + +16,095. Do you support yourself mostly by knitting?-Yes, almost +entirely. + +16,096. What kind of knitting do you do?-Fine veils and shawls. + +16,097. Are you paid for them in money or in goods?-Always in +goods. + +16,098. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never asked +for it. + +16,099. Do you get money for your sewing?-Yes. I sew to +private people, and they always pay me in money. + +16,100. Where do you buy your provisions?-From any shop I +like. I don't go to any one in particular. + +16,101. Where do you get the money for that?-From my sewing. + +16,102. Do you get all the money that you require for provisions +by your sewing?-No. We generally keep a lodger or two when +we can get them. + +16,103. Would you not prefer to get some money for your +knitting?-Yes; but it never was the practice to ask for it, +and therefore I never thought of doing so. + +16,104. Would you not be better off if you had money for your +knitting, which you could spend upon provisions?-I think I would +be; but I never thought of asking it, as it is not the usual thing. + +16,105. What kind of goods do you get for your knitting?-Tea, +sugar, soft goods, groceries, or any kind of goods that are in the +shop. + +16,106. Do you get most of the dress for yourself in that way?- +Yes. + +16,107. Do you knit a greater number of articles than are sufficient +to supply yourself with dress?-Yes. + +16,108. What do you do with them?-I buy anything that is +required for the house. + +16,109. Do you sometimes get goods for your friends if they want +any?-No, I generally require all I get for myself. + +16,110. You don't get provisions for your knitting?-No. + +16,111. Do you get enough money for your sewing and from your +lodgers to supply you with provisions all the year round?-Yes; it +has always done so in time past. + +16,112. Is there anybody living in family with you except your +mother?-No. + +16,113. What is the usual price that you get for your fine +shawls?-We generally get 10s. or 12s., but that is not the +very finest worsted either. + +16,114. Are these shawls knitted with the merchant's worsted?- +Yes. + +16,115. It is always given out to you, and you keep an account?- +Yes. + +16,116. Do you know what quality of worsted it is that you knit +one of these shawls with?-It is usually Shetland worsted. The +price of it is 31/2d., and some of it 4d. per cut; at least I would think +so, judging by the fineness of the worsted. + +16,117. Have you sometimes bought worsted yourself?-Yes, +sometimes. + +16,118. Have you bought it often enough to know the quality and +price?-Yes. + +16,119. What size of shawl is it that you get 12s. for?-About 21/4 +yards. That, is, 25 scores on each border, and there are four +borders in the square. + +16,120. Then you could say quite positively that for a shawl of 25 +scores, knitted with 31/2d. worsted, and measuring 21/4 yards, you +got 12s. in goods?-Yes. + +16,121. Do you ever sell shawls to any persons except the +merchants?-No. + +16,122. When did you last take any veils to the shop?-I think +it was the week before last. I got 9d. each for them; they were +knitted with Scotch wool. When they are coarse, there is less paid +for knitting than when they are fine. + +16,123. Were these coarse veils?-No, they were ordinary quality. +The worsted was not the very coarsest. + +16,124. Do you know what was the value of the worsted per +cut?-I cannot say. + +16,125. Who did you sell them to?-To Mr. Robert Linklater. + +16,126. Do you know what you would pay for them at the shop?- +I think it would be about 2s. or 2s. 6d. + +16,127. Would you go and buy one of them and bring it to me +here?-Yes. + +[Page 409] + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, recalled. + +16,128. [Produces veil.] Is that one of the veils you are knitting for +Mr. Sinclair just now?-Yes. It is his own worsted that I am +working it with. I think I will get 16d. for it. I have got that for +veils of the same quality. + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled. + +16,129. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to what +the witness Grace Slater has now said?-The only explanation I +have to make is, that the veil she has now produced belongs to the +same class of goods as that with regard to which Mr. Linklater and +I were previously examined. The veil which she has produced is +quite a good thing, but in the same class of goods there are a great +number of job articles which tear in the dressing. + +16,130. What is the selling price of such veils?-From 2s. 6d. to +2s. 9d. That is the highest price we get for them. + +16,131. What quantity of worsted is in one of them?-About 6d. +worth of worsted. + +16,132. Is that two cuts of 3d. worsted?-No, it is mohair. But +there will be other veils of the same kind which will be worth not +more than 18d. or 20d., and therefore the profit which we get upon +one veil is no proof as to the amount of profit, if any, which is got +upon the whole. + +16,133. What quantity of worsted is there in a veil like that?- +About 1/4 oz. The price of that worsted is about 36s. now, but I +paid 32s. 6d. for it. Taking it at 32s., that would be 2s. per oz., +and therefore 1/4 oz. would be 6d. + +16,134. How many bad lots might you have in an ordinary time +in such veils?-The only way of getting at that would be by +examining our books. This very season I had a lot of about 30 +dozen veils, which cost me altogether about £45, and I sold them +for about the lot. + +16,135. How did that happen?-Just because I could get no more +for them. I would have been very glad to have got more if I could. +I may mention that there is not 20 per cent. of these veils which +realize the price I have mentioned of 33s. per dozen, although they +all cost that price. Most of them run about 2s. 2d. or 2s., or +something like that. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled. + +16,136. [Produces black veil.] Have you bought this veil from Mr. +Linklater?-Yes. He says these veils sell at 18s. a dozen, or 1s. +6d. apiece; but this one is undressed, and therefore I only paid 1s. +41/2d. for it. + +16,137. Is this one of the veils which you knitted, and for which +you got 9d.?-Yes. + +16,138. Do you not know the value of the worsted required for +it?-No. + +16,139. You said you know the value of the worsted in the shawls +you knit?-Yes. + +16,140. Then how do you not happen to know the value of the +worsted in the veil?-Because I knitted them for myself in the one +case, and in the other I always got the worsted to knit them with. + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER MUNRO, examined. + +16,141. What are you?-I am second officer of Customs at the +port of Lerwick. + +16,142. How long have you been in that position?-Fully five +years. + +16,143. Were you here before it was usual to pay the seamen +engaged in the Greenland voyages at the Custom House +regularly?-No; I came here in the first year that the special +regulations came into effect-1867. + +16,144. Did it come under your notice after you came here, that +the men who received their wages at the Custom House were +frequently indebted to the agents by whom they were engaged?-I +am not cognisant of the fact whether they were indebted or not. + +16,145. Were you not aware that settlements were sometimes +made with the clerk of the agents, or the agents themselves, for +accounts due to them at the time when the men were receiving +their wages before the superintendent?-Yes, I understood so. + +16,146. Was that frequent during the first year that you were +here?-Yes. + +16,147. Were these settlements actually made in 1867 in the +Custom House?-There were deductions taken from the balances +shown to be due to the seamen, in addition to the deductions +specified in the agreement. + +16,148. Did the superintendent interfere to prevent these +deductions from being made in his office?-Yes; the parties +were interfered with by the superintendent, and the practice +was stopped. + +16,149. Was that in 1867 or subsequently?-I think it must have +been in 1869 or 1870. + +16,150. Did the practice go on without interruption or objection +until that time?-Not without interruption. We tried to stop it, but +we did not succeed altogether until 1869 or 1870. + +16,151. Since that time has any attempt been made, within your +knowledge, to make a deduction of that kind in the Custom +House?-Not so far as I am aware. + +16,152. Have you been aware whether seamen have received the +money payable to them under deduction of the agent's account in +any case?-I could not positively say, but I think I have seen it +done. + +16,153. Have you suspected that the seamen were receiving only a +part of what was really payable to them?-Yes. + +16,154. What reason had you to suspect that?-Because I could +see them keeping the deduction off. + +16,155. Is the money usually counted in presence of the +superintendent or of yourself?-Yes. + +16,156. Has that always been so?-No. It should always be done, +but it has not been done at all times. + +16,157. Is there sometimes a press of business which prevents +it?-Yes, sometimes; and you cannot always keep your eye +watching everybody. + +16,158. Do the cases to which you refer, occur when there is a +press of business?-Occasionally. + +16,159. Are you aware that seamen coming to receive their wages +at the Custom House have usually had a settlement with the agent +beforehand at his office?-I am not aware of that. + +16,160. Have you found, in the course of your experience, whether +the seamen, when paid at the Custom House, generally know the +amount of their account at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of +that either. + +16,161. Have you at any time heard the agent, or his clerk, while +settling with the seamen, or after settling with them, in presence of +the superintendent, remind them that they had to go down to his +office and pay their account?-I cannot say positively that I have +heard the agents say that to the men, but I know that it was an +understood thing that they should do so. + +16,162. Is it not so now?-I fancy it is. + +16,163. How did you know that it was understood?-I have +overheard the agent and the men talking about it between +themselves in the office. I could not exactly bring the words to +my remembrance which I have heard used, but I have seen cases +where a small balance might be due, and when the agent did not +have change to settle with a man, he said he would settle when he +came to settle the other account at the shop. + +16,164. The matter has come under your notice in that way, so that +you have come to be aware that it is a usual thing for the men to go +down and pay their accounts [Page 410] after having been settled +with at the Custom House?-I should fancy it has. + +16,165. Have you had anything to do with the engagement of +seamen?-Occasionally. + +16,166. Are they ever engaged in presence of the +superintendent?-For foreign-going vessels they are +always engaged there. + +16,167. Are they so engaged for the Greenland and sealing +vessels?-Yes. + +16,168. Is the agent present then and the captain of the vessel?- +Yes. + +16,169. Is the selection of the men usually left to the agent, or does +the master of the vessel exercise a choice?-I fancy the agent +collects the men and the master selects them out of the crowd. + +16,170. Does the agent interfere with the selection?-I am not +aware. They are all selected before they come before us. + +16,171. Have you noticed whether in recent years the number of +young hands engaged in the sealing and whaling voyages has been +less than it was when you first came to the office?-I have not +observed that. + +16,172. Have you heard any of the men complain that they could +not get their wages paid when they wanted them?-I have heard +complaints with regard to the second payment of oil-money. The +men said the agent had not got his return, or something to that +effect, that he was not aware of the quantity being ascertained. + +16,173. Is that the only complaint you have heard on the +subject?-I think so. + +16,174. Do you know whether there was any difficulty or objection +on the part of the agents to comply with the regulations when they +were issued?-There was little bit of difficulty, and I have no +doubt there was little objection at the time. + +16,175. What was the ground of it?-I cannot say, except that it +was troublesome. + +16,176. Was there no objection made to you or in your +presence?-No; I cannot bring a case of that kind to +recollection. + +16,177. Then what was the difficulty or objection that you refer +to?-I suppose it was the compulsion of bringing the men forward +to be discharged, and producing store-books, and all that. + +16,178. Do you mean that the agents do not like to have the +settlement made in presence of the superintendent at all?-I don't +mean to say that exactly; but I mean that it gave them a good deal +of extra trouble, and it was sometimes disagreeable. + +16,179. You have said that there was a good deal of difficulty +in getting them complied with at first: do you remember any +explanation or reason that was given by the agents for that?-The +first year I came here the master of each vessel had to get a +store-book, in which were entered the goods or whatever extra +stores might be supplied to the men during the voyage, and I have +known these books coming ashore signed by the master and the +men when they came into the agents' hands, as it proof of their +correctness. Then the shop goods which had been supplied to the +families of the men during their absence were entered in, but we +had to compel them to deduct these and delete the entries. + +16,180. Was that a difficulty which you had in 1867?-Yes, the +first year. + +16,181. Did you find it to exist after 1867?-No; we stopped it at +once. + +16,182. Then in 1868 there was still a difficulty, as you have +already said, in getting the regulations enforced: what was the +difficulty then?-The only difficulty then was the agent deducting +his own account from the balance shown in the men's account, and +handing over the net balance only. + +16,183. That did not appear in any written accounting that took +place before you?-No. + +16,184. Have you seen that attempted so lately as 1870 or 1871?- +Not in 1871, I think. I rather think the last time was in 1870, but I +could not be positive. + +16,185. Are the rules strictly observed now?-So far as we can +attend to them, they are. + +16,186. Are you not able to attend to them?-Yes. + +16,187. Then they are attended to?-Yes. + +16,188. What did you mean by qualifying your answer, and saying, +so far as you could attend to them?-I meant by taking steps to +stop all these informalities. + +16,189. But there are no informalities now?-No. + +16,190. Is there no delay now in settling?-There is delay in +settling, most undoubtedly. + +16,191. Is that not strictly prohibited by the regulations?-I don't +think it is. There are five days allowed for settling, according to +the Act; but here it takes five or six or seven or eight months. + +16,192. What is the cause for that in your opinion?-I cannot say. + +16,193. Have you any doubt that the men would come forward to +be settled with if they were instructed to do so by the agent and the +master of the ship?-I should think they would, and be paid within +a day or so after the ship's arrival. I think that would be far better +for all parties. + +16,194. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in making up +the statutory accounts of wages which justifies a delay of five or +six months in settling?-No. I think they can be made up in the +course of ten hours for any whaling crew. + +16,195. But there may be a difficulty in making up the account at +the agent's shop, may there not?-I don't know. They might have +that prepared beforehand, if it was necessary. + +16,196. Do you know whether the effect of the delay which so +occurs is to make the men incur larger accounts at the agent's +shop?-I am not aware of that. + +16,197. Have you ever heard any statement from the men to the +effect that they had to go to the shop during that period of +delay?-I never did. + +16,198. Do you think it is the fault of the men that the settlements +are so long delayed?-There is no doubt a fault on the part of the +men, because, if they go away to their homes in the distant islands, +there must necessarily be a difficulty in collecting them again. + +16,199. But is it not the custom to let them away in the first +instance without directing them to come and receive their +wages?-I think so. + +16,200. Do you know whether they have ever been strictly ordered +to attend for that purpose by the master of the ship?-Not to my +knowledge. + +16,201. Where are the men usually landed from these whaling +vessels?-They are sometimes landed at the lighthouse, sometimes +at Scalloway, sometimes at Sumburgh Head, but most commonly +at Lerwick harbour. + +16,202. Are nine out of every ten landed there?-No, but more the +one half of them are landed in Lerwick harbour. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. MARGARET SMITH or GIFFORD, +examined. + +16,203. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,204. Do you knit haps?-Yes; but only a few, because I am +getting old and weak, and I am not so able to work as I used to be. + +16,205. Have you knitted lately for Mr. Sinclair?-I have knitted +for him for a long time. I think it is about a fortnight since I sold +my last hap to him. It was between 11/2 and 13/4 yards. + +16,206. What kind of wool was it made of?-Just common wool +of different kinds-grey and black and white. + +16,207. Was it worth about 2d. per hundred?-It would be worth +about that. + +16,208. What did you sell it for?-6s.; that was what I commonly +got for these little haps. + +16,209. Did you sell it for that price in goods?-I was to get +anything I wanted. I have something to get yet. I got tea and +soap, or anything I required, and I shall get the rest as I need it. + +16,210. Was that about the ordinary price which you got for a hap +of that size and quality?-Yes. If I could make them bigger, I +would get more money, perhaps 10s., and from that down to 6s. + +[Page 411] + +16,211. How long have you been dealing with Mr. Sinclair?-I +have dealt with him from 1840 or 1845. + +16,212. Have you always been paid by him in goods during that +time?-Yes, when I asked them; but if I asked any other thing I +got whatever I asked. + +16,213. Have you bought articles for money in Mr. Sinclair's +shop?-It was not very often that he got any money from us; but +when I wanted anything from him, I found there was no difference +whether I paid for it in money or in goods. + +16,214. Do you mean that you paid the same price for the goods +which you bought, whether you paid for them in money or in +hosiery?-Just the same; I never saw any difference. + +16,215. Are there not two prices in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-Not so +far as I know; but I can only speak for myself. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, WILLIAM GARRIOCK, examined. + +16,216. Do you live in Sandsting parish?-Yes. + +16,217. Are you serving in the Naval Reserve in Lerwick just +now?-Yes. + +16,218. Have you been bred to the sea?-Yes. + +16,219. Where have you been at sea?-I have gone to Greenland +and Davis Straits, for the most part. + +16,220. Have you ever been at the Faroe fishing or at the ling +fishing?-No. + +16,221. Have you been south?-Yes, I was south for a short time; +but I have generally gone to the seal or whale fishing since I was +able to go. + +16,222. From what agents have you got your engagement?-From +Mr. Joseph Leask, Mr. George Reid Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson +& Co. + +16,223. How long have you been doing that?-Since 1854. I have +been in Greenland almost every year since then. + +16,224. Did you always get your outfit from the agent with whom +you were engaged?-Always. + +16,225. And some supplies for your family besides?-Yes. + +16,226. Did you keep an account in the agent's shop, from which +your family got what they wanted during your absence?-Yes. + +16,227. Did your wife get all her supplies from Lerwick?-No; she +got most of them from shops in our own neighbourhood, because it +was a long distance to come to Lerwick; but sometimes she sent +here, and sometimes not. + +16,228. Why did she send here for them?-Sometimes she had to +send here for money when she could not get money from her +neighbours. + +16,229. Did she get money here whenever she wanted it?-Yes, so +far as ever I knew. + +16,230. Did she have allotment notes?-Yes, towards the end of +the time, but not at first. + +16,231. Did you always take allotment notes for her use while you +were absent?-I have done so lately. + +16,232. Are these allotment notes taken in her name?-Yes; but +sometimes I have been so much indebted to the agent before I left, +that I had to leave the allotment note with him until he was paid. + +16,233. Have you done that lately?-Yes. + +16,234. Had you been in his debt before you engaged with him?- +No. I got into his debt at the time of engaging. I got a lot of things +from him then. + +16,235. Did you leave your allotment note in his hands as a +security for the payment of these supplies?-Yes. + +16,236. Was the note taken in the agent's name?-No; it was +taken in my wife's name, and she was supplied by him if she +required anything. + +16,237. Who was the agent you engaged with last year?-Messrs. +Laurenson & Co. I also engaged with them the year before. The +year before that, I think I engaged with Mr. Joseph Leask. + +16,238. In all these years did you run up a pretty large account at +the agent's shop?-Yes; I always had an account with the agent. + +16,239. Did you settle that account before you went up to the +Custom House to be paid your wages?-No. Sometimes the agent +was at the Custom House to receive payment of his account there, +and sometimes I went down to his shop and paid him after I had +been paid myself. + +16,240. But was the account settled in the book, and the amount +due by you to him ascertained before you went up to the Custom +House?-Yes. + +16,241. Was that done always?-No, not of late. + +16,242. Why did you get supplies from Lerwick when you could +have got them nearer home, without giving your wife the trouble +of sending so far for them?-Sometimes, perhaps, I could not get +credit from a neighbour. + +16,243. Could your wife not have got money from the agent in +Lerwick by sending in her allotment note to him?-If I was in debt +to the agent, I could not expect him to advance money until he was +paid his debt; but I never saw an agent refusing money, even +although there was an account due to him. + +16,244. Did you ever ask money and get it when there was an +account due?-Yes. + +16,245. Do you mean that your wife asked for money when you +were away?-Yes. + +16,246. Did she require it for any particular purpose when she +asked it in that way?-I cannot say. + +16,247. Did you ever know of her asking for money in order to buy +supplies near home?-No, I never knew that. + +16,248. Do you think she would have been likely to?-I don't +think it. I think if she had ever done it, I would have known. + +16,249. Do you think she would have got the money if she had +asked it for that purpose?-I am sure she would. + +16,250. Then why did she not do it instead of carrying her supplies +all the way from Lerwick?-I don't know as to that. + +16,251. How far is it from Lerwick to your place?-I never heard +of it being measured, but I should say it is over twenty miles. + +16,252. You say the agent keeps your allotment notes, even +although they are in name of your wife?-Yes, if I am indebted +to him. + +16,253. Don't they require to be signed by your wife?-Not at +first. + +16,254. But afterwards?-Yes; if she has a note, then of course she +has to sign it before she gets the money. + +16,255. But she does not require to sign it when she gets supplies; +these are set down to the account?-Yes; she does not require to +sign it unless she is drawing her half-pay at the Custom House. + +16,256. Has she ever drawn her half-pay, so long as you +remember?-Yes. + +16,257. Is that long ago?-It is perhaps a couple of years ago. + +16,258. How much of it did she draw then?-She drew half a +month's pay every month when I was away. + +16,259. What did she do with that?-I suppose she required it. + +16,260. Did she spend it at home or in Lerwick?-I cannot say. + +16,261. Was the allotment note in the agent's hands at that +time?-No. + +16,262. She had got the allotment note that year herself?-Yes. + +16,263. You had sent it to her before you went away?-Yes. + +16,264. Then at that time you had not run up a large account with +the agent?-Not very much. + +16,265. Had you any account with the agent that year at all?-I +don't remember; I don't think it was very much. + +16,266. There might have been a little for some articles of outfit, +perhaps?-Perhaps there was. + +16,267. When you settle at the Custom House, are you ever told by +the agent's clerk who goes up to hand [Page 412] you the money, +that he expects you down at the shop to settle your account +there?-Yes; but I usually go first to the shop and see what my +account with the agent there is, and then I pay him immediately +afterwards, either at the Custom House or at the shop, as soon as +I am paid myself. + +16,268. Are you expected to go down and pay your account at +once?-Yes. + +16,269. Are you ever spoken to about going at once?-No, I have +never been told to go at once; but I understand it is my business to +pay it at once, as long as I am able to do it. + +16,270. Is it expected that the men going on a Greenland voyage +are to take their supplies, partly at least, from the agent's shop?-I +don't know if it is expected or not. I suppose it is expected, but a +man may buy his outfit wherever he pleases. + +16,271. Did you ever know a man buying it elsewhere than at the +agent's shop?-I have bought some articles elsewhere myself. + +16,272. Did you ever buy the whole of your articles anywhere +else?-Yes. + +16,273. Why did you buy any of them elsewhere?-I was not very +particular about where I went. If I had money in my hand I went +to any place that was most suitable, or where I could get the most +suitable articles. + +16,274. Did you often do that?-Not often. I more frequently had +an account with the agent. + +16,275. When you go to make an engagement in the agent's shop +for a voyage, are you sometimes asked if you want anything?-No, +I am never asked that, unless if I happen to be running an account +he may ask if have got all my things, or something like that. + +16,276. Does he not usually ask you that?-I cannot say that he +does. + +16,277. Is there any difficulty nowadays in getting berths in +Greenland ships?-Sometimes there is because there are not +many ships that come here. + +16,278. Are there more men than berths?-Sometimes that is the +case. + +16,279. When that is the case, what kind of men have the best +chance of being engaged?-I don't know. + +16,280. Do you think a man who owes an account to the agent, +or who is to keep an account with him, has a better chance than +another?-I cannot say that he has. + +16,281. Do you think the men have that impression?-I believe +they do have that impression; but whether it is a right impression +or not I cannot say. + +16,282. Have you learned from some of the men themselves that +such an impression exists?-No, not from the men themselves. + +16,283. Then how do you know that they think so?-I have no real +knowledge on the subject; only I know that is said to be the case. + +16,284. Who says it?-I cannot mention any particular person that +I have heard it from. Perhaps when they see a man engaged for a +ship, when they do not have a chance themselves, they may think +there is some cause like that to account for it. + +16,285. Then some of the men do think that they have a better +chance of a berth if they have an account with the agent?-I have +merely heard that said; I have no experience of it myself. + +16,286. Do you think that if you were not to come down from the +Custom House at once and pay your account in the agent's shop, +you would have a chance of getting a berth from that agent next +year?-I believe I would. + +16,287. Why do you think so?-Because, if I was due the agent an +account, he might perhaps think that I would make a better voyage +in another year, and that I might then be more able to pay him. + +16,288. But do you think he would have anything to do with you +if you refused to pay your account to him at the settlement in +November: do you think in that case that you would have a chance +of getting another engagement from him in February or March?-I +suppose I would have a chance. + +16,289. Would he not say that he would have nothing more to do +you, because you had not paid your previous account?-No; I +never saw that done. + +16,290. Is that because you have always paid your account in +proper time?-I don't know; but I always have paid my account +when I could. + +16,291. Did you ever know of any man who did not pay his +account to the agent as soon as he got his money at the Custom +House?-No, I never knew of any man who did not do that. + +16,292. Did you ever hear that spoken of?-No; I never heard +about anything of that kind. + +16,293. Did you never hear the men talk among themselves about +that matter?-No. + +16,294. What do you think would happen if you did not go down at +once to the agent's shop and pay your account whenever you got +your money at the Custom House?-So far as I know, I don't think +anything would happen at all. + +16,295. Do you think the agent would look after you?-I have +been due things myself for about a year but he never looked after +me. That was before I was paid at the Custom House. + +16,296. Then you had settled with the agent in office on that +occasion?-Yes; and left a balance due. + +16,297. Were you due that balance to the agent for twelve months +afterwards?-Yes. + +16,298. Did the same agent get you a berth in a Greenland ship in +the following year?-No; I left that agent and went to another for +that year. + +16,299. Did that other agent take the balance over and become +responsible for it?-Yes; it was brought into the next agent's +books. + +16,300. Who was the agent who took over your debt in that +way?-I was once due an account in that way to Mr. George +Reid Tait, and I afterwards found it in Mr. Leask's books. + +16,301. Did you not know of that until you found it in Mr. Leask's +books at settlement?-I knew I was due the account. + +16,302 You knew you were due it to Mr. Tait but did you know +that it had been transferred to Mr. Leask until you found it in the +book?-No; I did not know that until then. + +16,303. Were you surprised to find it charged in Mr. Leask's books +against you?-No; I was not surprised at all. + +16,304. Did you expect to find it there?-No, not exactly; but of +course I would have paid it if I had been able. + +16,305. Did that happen to you more than once?-No; only once, +to my recollection, in that way. + +16,306. Did it ever happen to you in any other way-It happened +once in this way: that I supposed I was due an account to Mr. +Leask in one year, and I found the account standing in his books +against me next year. + +16,307. Did you change your agent that year?-No. + +16,308. How long is it since your account with Mr. Tait was +transferred to Mr. Leask?-I cannot say exactly, but I think it +will be more than twelve years ago. + +16,309. Have you never had a balance against you since at +settlement?-No. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROSS GEORGESON, examined. + +16,310. Are you a seaman living at Scalloway?-Yes; I am skipper +of a Faroe smack. + +16,311. In whose employment have you been lately?-Mr. +Leask's. + +16,312. For how many years have you gone to the Faroe fishing?- +I have gone every year for about fifteen or sixteen years. + +16,313. Are you now serving your time in the Naval Reserve?- +Yes. + +[Page 413] + +16,314. Have you always had an account in the books of Mr. Leask +when you were engaged in his smacks?-Yes. + +16,315. Did you settle that account with him every year?-Yes. + +16,316. Have you been employed in his service at any other part of +the year, except when you went to the Faroe fishing?-No; but +lately I have gone a voyage or two to the south with fish in winter. + +16,317. Do your family get their supplies from Mr. Leask's shop in +Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,318. All the year round?-No; only when it is convenient. +For instance, when we go round to Scalloway with the vessel, we +generally take a good stock of things with us, which helps us +through part of the season. + +16,319. Do you not take goods across the country to Scalloway +sometimes when any of your family happen to be in Lerwick?- +Only very little. + +16,320. Do you settle about December or January every year?- +Generally about the 1st of December. + +16,321. Do you get the balance which is due to you then in +cash?-Yes. + +16,322. Do you sometimes get advances in money during the +course of the year?-Yes; I get what I require. + +16,323. How much do you generally get in money before the +settlement?-Generally between summer and winter I may run +an account of about £30 or £40 for myself and the vessel. + +16,324. But what do you get in your private account?-Just what +money I require, and what I ask. I may perhaps ask £4 or £5 or £6 +at a time, just as I need it. + +16,325. Is it for any particular purpose that you ask for so much?- +No; there is no particular purpose ever mentioned. + +16,326. Do you think you would get all the money that was due to +you at any time before settlement if you asked for it?-I have no +doubt of that; but there is generally an account run. + +16,327. Do you take out goods in the course of the year when you +want them?-Yes, when it is convenient to get them to Scalloway. + +16,328. Suppose you did not take out any goods at all, but wanted +to get the whole in cash, do you suppose you would get that?- +Yes. + +16,329. Have you ever asked for it all in cash?-No; because I +leave my money along with Mr. Leask. + +16,330. What do you mean by leaving your money along with +him?-I get the same interest for my money when it is in his +hands as I would get from the bank. + +16,331. Then when you settle you don't always draw the whole +balance that is due to you?-No. + +16,332. You leave it in Mr. Leask's hands, and get interest allowed +to you for it in your next account?-Yes. + +16,333. Did you always have an account with him?-Yes. + +16,334. Do all the men in the smacks keep accounts with the +owner of the smack for their supplies?-Yes, so far as I know. + +16,335. Do they all get money when they ask for it?-I never +heard anything else. I never heard any man say that he had asked +for money and did not get it. + +16,336 Do they generally ask for much money?-I don't know. I +suppose every man asks for what he requires, or according to what +he has to get. + +16,337. Are they not expected to get their supplies at the +merchant's shop?-It is just as they like. + +16,338. Of course it is just as they like, but are they not expected +to get a part of their supplies in the shop?-I suppose so. They +always do so. + +16,339. Are there as many men to be had for the Faroe fishing as +are wanted to man the smacks?-Yes. There has been no scarcity +in time past. + +16,340. Do you know of any men who go to the Faroe fishing and +draw money from the owner in the course of the season for the +support of their families, and who do not get any supplies at all?- +No. , They generally take their goods for the voyage from the +merchant, whether they take anything else or not; but I never knew +any men who did not take some supplies from him. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ARTHUR MOFFAT, examined. + +16,341. Are you a seaman living at Lochside, Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,342. Are you now serving in the Naval Reserve?- Yes. + +16,343. Where have you been employed?-I have been going to +the seal and whale fishing. + +16,344. Have you ever been at Faroe or at the ling fishing?-No. + +16,345. What agents have you engaged with for the Greenland +voyage?-I have been out for the whole of them. + +16,346. Did you always keep an account for supplies with the +agent who engaged you?-Yes. + +16,347. Was that settled at his office before 1867?-Yes. + +16,348. Since that year it has been settled at the Custom House?- +Yes. + +16,349. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House +to the agent's office and pay your account?-Yes. + +16,350. Are you expected to go straight down?-I don't know, but +I think it my duty to do so. + +16,351. Are you expected to take some of your supplies from the +agent who engages you?-We just take them as we require them. + +16,352. But if you require supplies or an outfit, are you expected +to take them from the agent who engages you?-Yes, we can do +nothing else but take them from him; we cannot go to a strange +shop for them, because they would not give them to us. + +16,353. Why would they not give you credit at it strange shop?- +Because they do no business with us, and perhaps they would not +know us. + +16,354. Would you not have your first month's pay in advance +with which to buy what you wanted?-Not very often, because I +don't take it out in that way. + +16,355 But you could it?-Yes. + +16,356. And if you had it you could get what you wanted at +another shop?-Yes. + +16,357. When you go in to engage with an agent does he, or do his +shop-people, ask you if you want anything?-No. + +16,358. Do you generally get an advance note?-Yes, we get it, +but we leave it with the agent; at least I do. + +16,359. Why do you leave it with the agent?-Because I find the +half-pay too little for the support of my wife and family during my +absence. They require more supplies than that, and they get them +out of the agent's shop. + +16,360. Has that been your practice for a long time?-It has. + +16,361. Have you always engaged with the same agent for a +number of years back?-Yes, I have engaged with Mr. Leask +for some time. + +16,362. Have you always got your supplies at his shop?-Yes. + +16,363. You said you could not get credit anywhere else: is that +because Mr. Leask has the command of the money you are to +get?-No, it is not that, because we get the money if we want it. + +16,364. You could get the money if you wanted it on an allotment +note, but not otherwise?-Yes. + +16,3 65. Do you say that you could get a larger amount of supplies +at Mr. Leask's shop than your allotment note would pay for if you +had it?-I do. + +16,366. Have you a balance to receive at the end of the year when +you settle with Mr. Leask?-Generally. + +16,367. Are you never in his debt at settlement?-No. + +[Page 414] + +16,368. Does your wife get cash from Mr. Leask when she wants +it?-Yes. + +16,369. How much does she generally get?-I don't know. + +16,370. Did she ever get 5s. at a time?-Perhaps she got the whole +half-pay at a time if she wanted it, or the half of it. + +16,371. Was that if she wanted it for any particular purpose, such +as for paying rent?-Yes, or any necessary thing. + +16,372. But it was only for a necessary purpose that she got it?-I +suppose so. + +16,373. Is it generally understood among the men in the whaling, +that they ought to deal with the agent who engages them for a +voyage?-No. We can deal with any person we like. + +16,374. But don't they always deal with the agent who engages +them, taking their outfit and their supplies for home from him?- +Yes. + +16,375. Do you think that if a man did not deal with the agent he +would be as likely to get a berth next year as if he had kept an +account with him?-Just the same; I never found any difference. + +16,376. But did you ever go to another agent for your supplies than +the one who had engaged you?-No, not in that particular season; +but I have changed agents occasionally. + +16,377. How long is it since you were engaged by another agent +than Mr. Leask?-Two years. I changed from Laurenson & Co. +to Mr. Leask then. + +16,378. Why did you change?-Just to fall in with the ship that I +wanted to go in. That was my only reason. + +16,379. Were you clear with Laurenson & Co. when you +changed?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, JAMES LAURENSON, examined. + +16,380. Are you a seaman residing at Mews, in Dunrossness?-I +am. + +16,381. Are you serving at present in the Naval Reserve?-Yes. + +16,382. What trade have you been engaged in as a seaman?-I +have mostly been in the south. + +16,383. Have you been in the Faroe fishing?-No. + +16,384. Have you been at the ling fishing?-I was two years in the +ling fishing at Mews, about eight or nine years ago, for Mr. Robert +Mullay. + +16,385. Did you keep accounts with him then for your supplies?- +Not for supplies, only for fishing material. + +16,386. Did you get any advances of money from him?-I did not +ask for any; I did not want them at the time. + +16,387. Would you have got advances of money if you had asked +for them when you were not taking supplies?-I expect I would. + +16,388. But you did not want the money, and you did not ask for +it?-I did not ask for it. + + +Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER GOODLAD, examined. + +16,389. What are you?-I am a seaman, and I live in Lerwick. + +16,390. I understand you wish to make some statement about the +sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. If I ask a half-pay note from +an agent, it cannot keep my family, and I am not much acquainted +with any person except the agent who will give me credit and +therefore I don't know where to get supplies for them in my +absence except through him. + +16,391. What is the amount of your wages?-Usually 50s., and my +half-pay is usually 25s. + +16,392. Do you commonly run an account with the agent?-Yes. + +16,393. Is your reason for doing so that your halfpay is too +small?-Yes. + +16,394. Did you ever try to get credit anywhere else except from +the agent who engaged you?-I have. + +16,395. Were you refused?-Sometimes, but not always. + +16,396. What reason was given for refusing you credit?-They +said they did not know me. + +16,397. Was that by a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes. + +16,398. Were you asked on these occasions whether you were +running an account elsewhere?-Yes; and I was told to go to the +agent's for what I wanted. + +16,399. Do the tradesmen here expect that you will get your +supplies from the agent who engages you for the whaling +voyage?-Commonly they do. + +16,400. And they don't care for giving credit to men who are +running an account with the agent?-No. + +16,401. Were you running an account with the agent also at the +time when you applied for credit in that way?-No; I was clear +with the agent at that time. + +16,402. Did you get no supplies from him at the beginning of the +voyage?-No; but I have sometimes got supplies from the agents +before I went on another voyage. + +16,403. What merchant refused you credit in the way you have +mentioned?-It was some of them who did not know me in +Lerwick. + +16,404. Did they refuse because they knew that the agent had the +command of your money, and could keep it for his own account if +he had one?-Yes. + +16,405. Did they say so?-No, they did not make that statement +exactly; but they told me that when a man was getting a ship from +an agent he should go and get his things from him. + +16,406. Did any merchant refuse to give you goods, and give you +that reason for his refusal?-Yes. + +16,407. Was he an agent in the whaling trade?-No, he was not. + +16,408. Had you an account at that time with any agent?-Yes. + +16,409. I thought you said you had not?-I was done with the +agent, and had signed clear in his books. + +16,410. What season of the year was that?-In February. + +16,411. Do you engage then for the rising season?-I engage for it +in the month of March. + +16,412. Do you then open an account with the agent for your +supplies?-Yes. + +16,413. Then is it quite an understood thing that man who engages +with an agent for a Greenland voyage must get his supplies from +that agent's shop?-If his goods are as cheap and its good as any +other person's, they commonly take them from his shop; but if not, +they usually make a change with the first month's advance they +get, and buy what they want where they can get it cheapest and +best. + +16,414. Did you ever do that?-Yes. + +16,415. Do you always do it?-There are many things which the +agents do not keep, and therefore we have to go to different places +for what we want. + +16,416. Do you get money from the agents for that purpose?- +Yes; we get our first month's advance on signing, and then they +will give us supplies in addition for two or three months I suppose, +or as much as we have a mind to take. + +16,417. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House, when +you were getting your pay, about going down to the shop and +settling your account?-I commonly settle my account before I go +up to the Custom House. + +16,418. But you don't pay your money until after you have been at +the Custom House?-No. + +16,419. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House by the +agent, or his clerk, about going down to the office and paying the +money that was due?-Yes. I was told last year by Mr. Leask's +clerk, Mr. Jamieson, to go down and pay the balance which I was +due. + +[Page 415] + +16,420. Did he tell you that in the Custom House or at the +office?-At the office, when we got our account of wages. + +16,421. That was before you went up to get your money at all?- +Yes. + +16,422. He told you then to come back with it?-Yes; and to pay +the balance due. + +16,423. Is not that always done when you go to settle your +account?-No. + +16,424. Is it not often done?-No; only that was the time anything +of the kind had been said to me. + +16,425. Did you ever hear it said to anybody else?-No. + +<Adjourned>. + +LERWICK: TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 6,1872. + +JOHN HARRISON, examined. + +16,426. What are you?-I am a merchant in Lerwick. + +16,427. Have you been for a long time a partner of the firm of +Harrison & Son?-Yes, since 1856. + +16,428. I understand you have had large experience in the +management of the Faroe fishing business?-Yes. + +16,429. Have you also had some experience with regard to the ling +fishing?-Not a great deal; but I have had some. + +16,430. Has your firm had any connection with the management of +land or property in Shetland?-None whatever. + +16,431. Have you neither been tacksmen nor proprietors?-My +father is a proprietor to a very small extent. + +16,432. But you have not been in any way dependent for your +supplies of fishermen upon any interest or connection with +land?-In no way whatever. + +16,433. Did you find the absence of that connection with land to +be any inconvenience to you in the management of your business, +with regard to getting fishermen?-None whatever; but men have +been hindered from engaging with us, in consequence of being +under the power of tacksmen or landlords, who wished to engage +them for themselves, although they would have preferred to have +gone into our service. + +16,434. Has that occurred in many cases?-I cannot state the +number of cases, but it has occurred in many, and within recent +times. + +16,435. Can you give an instance of that without mentioning +names?-I could not particularize the instances at the present +moment, but if I had time I am prepared to bring forward more +than a dozen instances within a period of between two and four +years back. + +16,437. Are you now speaking with regard to your supply of Faroe +fishermen?-Yes. + +16,437. Is it not the case, that where tenants are bound fish for +their landlord or tacksman, that obligation only applies to the ling +fishing if they engage in it but that they and their families are +quite free to go to the Faroe fishing or the whale fishing if they +please?-Under the system which obtains in Shetland, it makes no +difference what fishery a man may go to. He is bound to do what +the landlord or the tacksman wishes; if not the result is merely the +service of a warning to the parents; and of course, in consequence +of the injury which that would do to them, the children, out of +their kindness to them, must submit to any rules which may be +laid down for their observance. + +16,438. The evidence which has been led before me before, of +fishermen and of proprietors, has been to this effect, that the +obligation upon a man to fish for the proprietor or tacksman +extends only to the ling fishing, if he is engaged in it, and that if +he chooses to go to the Faroe fishing he is at perfect liberty to do +so?-I know of no such obligation. + +16,439. Has your experience been different?-Entirely different. + +16,440. Does your experience not apply to cases where the tenant +may have been in debt?-When the tenant is in debt, it is utterly +impossible for him to go and serve another man. But I was +referring to the case of parties who were quite free of debt, and +who had money in their own possession. + +16,441. How many of these cases have come within your +knowledge within the last two or three years?-I could not +particularize them. There have been several cases which have +come under my own notice, or the notice of my firm, although +I could not state the number; but from hearsay, and from the talk +of men who are serving other owners, I am led to believe that a +very great number of these cases has occurred. I do not mean to +say that there was actual straightforward force put upon the men; +but there were certain innuendoes, by which they knew perfectly +well that if they did not do as the tacksman or landlord wished, the +result would be that they would be warned out. + +16,442. Can you mention the circumstances of any particular case +in which men have been prevented from going to the Faroe fishing +in any of your vessels?-I can particularize one instance which +came very vividly before me. There were two brothers, who had +been with my firm since they were boys. I had rather a respect for +them both, because they were honest men and capital fishermen. +One of the boys came to me and said, 'I find that I cannot go in +the vessel I wished to go in this year, because I am told by the +tacksman that my parents will be warned. My brother can go; but +if he does, he will have to pay so much for the liberty of going in +the vessel that he wishes to go in.' I had no reason to doubt the +correctness of that statement, because, notwithstanding his evident +anxiety to get into the vessel belonging to us, in which he wished +to go, and in which he had been serving before, he did not go in +her; and it was the evident pressure that had been put upon him +which hindered him from going. + +16,443. Is that the most striking case of the kind that you have +come across in your business experience?-I cannot say that it is +the most striking case, but it is the case which appears at the +present moment most patent to me, because we were so directly +interested in it ourselves. + +16,444. How long is it since that happened?-Three or four years +ago; I cannot say precisely. + +16,445. Is that the only way in which your not having connection +with land has interfered with your business; or do you find it a +disadvantage with regard to the manning of your own vessels, not +to have landed property under your control?-No, I don't find that +to be a disadvantage; I find that we have been the most successful +owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade of any in the country; +and the reason is simply this, that the men who come to us are free +men-men who are not bound, neither will be bound, by tacksmen +or landlords but men who have been able to earn money by +superior energy; but we have had to do a great deal in order to +obtain such it class of men, and we have had to lose a great deal +of money which other people perhaps have put into their pockets. + +16,446. Do you mean that you have lost it great deal of money in +order to secure this superior class of men?- Yes. + +16,447. But has not the fact that you have procured them, proved +remunerative to you in the end?- [Page 416] Of course it has. It +has been a gain to the men, and it has also been it gain to us. + +16,448. Do you find that a man who is in debt is its good a +fisherman, in your experience, as one who keeps clear of debt?- +By no means. My experience has been, on more than fifty +different occasions, that although men were due us from £5 to +£18 or £20, we would not engage them again if the captains of the +vessels said they were not fishermen who were worth being taken, +and would rather lose the balances against them in our books than +employ them. + +16,449. Then you consider it an erroneous statement, that it is +advantageous for a merchant in Shetland to obtain a great number +of debtors?-I consider it to be the most erroneous statement that +ever was made. + +16,450. You are aware, I suppose, that that statement was made in +the evidence of a witness who was examined in Edinburgh?-Yes, +I read something of that kind in the evidence; but I think it was +erroneous. I suppose Mr. Walker, when he made it, thoroughly +believed that the parties to whom he referred believed that having +a number of debtors was the best thing they could possibly have; +but my impression is quite different, because the fishermen who +are in debt do not have the same energy, nor do they exert +themselves so much in procuring fish as other men who are free. +If the fishcurer who had so many debtors had called them in and +said to them, 'Now men, I will strike off the balances against you, +and you will get no more supplies until you bring fish ashore,' I +have not the slightest doubt that at the end of the season the result +would have been it great gain to him, and a great gain to the +fishermen. + +16,451. But you think that other parties in Shetland may have +acted upon the principle referred to in Mr. Walker's evidence, +although you do not approve of it?-They may have done so, and +I have no doubt they have, because it is a common axiom in +Shetland that if once you get a man into debt you have a hold over +him. No doubt you have a hold over him, but it is simply a hold +over a very unwilling slave. + +16,452. However, you have acted upon a different principle?-I +have always endeavoured to do so as much as possible. + +16,453. And you think you have been justified in doing so by the +results?-Decidedly. + +16,454. Can you give me any particular instance in which you +proved the superiority of men who were free from debt to those +who were in debt?-I can give general instances of that. In an +island called Hildesha, belonging to my father, the men were +accustomed to cast their fish, as it is called, green, and to get +payment at so much per cwt. when they were landed green on +shore. I found, after three or four years' experience, that at the +settlements the men were getting into debt, although they were +very good fishermen; indeed there were no better fishermen on the +west side of Shetland. When I asked them the reason they said, +'Will you give us liberty to cure and dry our fish, and to sell them +to you, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co., when they are dry?' I said, +'Certainly, if you think that will better your condition. Our house +is an exporter of fish to Spain, its well as Garriock & Co., and I +expect that you will not give them the fish at the same price which +we will give you for them, but that you will rather give us the +preference, seeing you are tenants of my father.' The men said +that of course I should get the fish immediately they were dried, +and they thought that would be an advantage to them. The result +of that was, that the men reaped a great benefit; and although some +of them afterwards, left the island in debt to the extent of £50, the +best of them are now free men, and have money of their own in +bank. + +16,455. Is it long ago since that happened?-It is more than four or +five years since they left the island. + +16,456. How long is it since they paid off their debts?-I think not +more than three years ago, some of them. + +16,457. Was that not binding the tenants to deliver their fish to you +in the same way as proprietors do, whose method you disapprove +of?-Certainly not. I stated distinctly that if they offered their fish +to Garriock & Co., and could get more money from them, then +they were at liberty to sell to them. There was no stipulation +whatever to the effect that these men were to deliver their fish to +us. + +16,458. Except that they were to give you the preference?-That +was not at all stated. They simply gave us the preference, because +they had a notion-a very foolish notion-that we might have +acted in the same way as other parties would probably have acted +if they had not done so: that was, by giving them a warning and +turning them out of the island. + +16,459. Did you not say that you stipulated with the men for that +preference?-No, I did not stipulate for it. When I said to them +that I expected they would give us the preference I did so not in +the way of a threat, but, seeing that the men were tenants of ours, +and that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with any supplies +which they might receive, from our house during the time of the +fishing, I felt that they were right in giving us the fish. I don't +deny, however, that there was a certain sort of coercion upon +them, from the very fact of my father being their landlord. + +16,460 Have you considered the existing system in Shetland with +the view of suggesting a remedy for the grievances which are +alleged to exist?-I have thought it great deal over it, and our firm +has suffered a great deal in consequence of the existing state of +affairs, in the way I have already referred to; but certainly the +remedy one can hardly point out + +16,461 What do you consider to be the principal evils which +exist?-The principal evil in Shetland arises from the system of +land tenure, whereby no man has a lease; or if he gets a lease and +if he is a fisherman, that lease is such that it is impossible for him +to continue to be a fisherman, and to prosecute the fishing with +energy. It is those who have no leases who are so bound down that +they cannot do anything in the least degree contrary to the wish of +the landlord or tacksman. I may give one instance of that, which is +rather ludicrous. I was down at Sandwick parish the other day, +and I was very anxious to bring up some fowls to town if I could +get them to buy. I sent a man round to see if he could get any for +me, but he called back saying that although I had offered about +twice the value for each of the fowls, he had found it quite +impossible to purchase them, as it was an agreement between +landlord and tenants, although the tenants had no leases whatever, +that they had to deliver so many fowls about the month of +February to the landlord. I don't know whether the landlord gave +credit for these fowls and took the value of them off the rent; but +my impression is that it was something over and above the rent, as +a present for being allowed to sit without leases. + +16,462. Was not that just part of the rent as kain was formerly +paid, and is now paid in some parts of Scotland?-I don't think +it was, because there is no account of rent in which that item is +marked down, so far as I know. + +16,463. But I suppose the obligation to fish which is imposed +upon yearly tenants is the principal objection which you have to +the present system of landholding?-Decidedly.- + +16,464. It what way does it operate injuriously this way: that +neither I, nor any man who has any amount of capital, can come +forward and by competition enable these fishermen to get a larger +price for their fish. + +16,465. But the arrangement with these fishermen all cases is +stated to be, that they get the current price at the end of the +season. Would that current price be any higher than it is now if +the tenantry of Shetland were not so bound?-I am speaking just +now of the benefit to the fishermen, not of the benefit to the +fishcurers. I think the current price at the end of the year might +in many cases be less, even with greater competition, if the parties +bought the fish green from the fishermen, all the fishermen being +free, because several of them no doubt would be obliged to sell +their fish at an early period of the year when they might not obtain +a good price. That would therefore bring down the market, and +the result would be that the fishermen [Page 417] in that way +would get less money if a current price were fixed then. But with +regard to the benefit to the fishermen, I think that if there was a +system of cash payments the competition would ensure the highest +price to the fishermen; and of course the parties who bought would +have to take the risk, the same as every merchant does who buys +an article in every other trade in the world. + +16,466. If you were introducing a system of cash payments, how +would you propose to work it in the ling fishing?-That is a very +difficult question to answer. In the case of the ling fishing, as well +as in other fisheries, the only way would be to pay the men when +they came on shore, as the fish were weighed out of the boat. + +16,467. Would you pay them the whole amount according to +a price fixed at the beginning of the season or at the time of +delivery?-At the time of delivery, not at the beginning of the +season. + +16,468. Then that price would vary according to the state of the +market?-Yes. If the price were fixed at the beginning of the +season, and if one boat or twenty beats fished to one man, the +result would be that that party would have the power over these +men, so that no other competitor could come forward, although the +markets might rise to the extent of from 1s. to 2s. 6d. per cwt. + +16,469. Then you would not only have the price fixed at the time +of delivering the fish, but you would give up the existing practice +of engaging a boat's crew to fish for the whole of the season?- +Decidedly. In the case of the ling fishing I would leave power to +the boat's crew to sell to whom they liked. + +16,470. In that case would there be any choice but to deliver to any +fish-curer whose station happened to be most convenient for the +crew?-The distances in Shetland between the different stations +are sometimes very considerable, and of course a fisherman would +be obliged to deliver his fish to any party who had a station near +his house, if no other person came forward, but by the existing law +any person who wished to go into the trade could come forward +and erect a booth on the shore, and put up all the paraphernalia +necessary for the curing and drying of fish, no matter on whose +ground it might be. There are plenty of beaches in Shetland; and if +the fishermen at a station came on shore and found that they could +get a higher price from any competitor who came forward, other +than the person who had a booth erected on that beach, they would +be quite entitled to sell their fish to that other party, who could +cure his fish on the beach, seeing that the party who held the beach +did not have any fish to cure on it himself, no matter to whom the +property belongs. + +16,471. Is it not the practice in Shetland for proprietors to let their +beaches?-It has been the practice, but it is not legal. The practice +has generally been to charge 1s. per ton for the curing of fish on +the beach; there is no such thing in Shetland as a beach let, but the +tenants or small crofters who want to eke out their incomes can +cure fish, or rather dry them, for themselves on paying perhaps 1s. +per ton to the landlord or to the tacksmaster, for the privilege of +drying the fish on the beaches below the crofts which they occupy. + +16,472. Is it within your knowledge that 1s. per ton is generally +paid by every crofter who cures fish on the beach adjacent to his +holding?-That is quite within my knowledge, because our firm +have paid it to more than twenty small crofters who have been +drying fish for us, and they have then had to pay it to their landlord +or tacksman. + +16,473. Do you mean that that charge has been made by the +crofters against you?-No, not made against us. + +16,474. But they have made that charge, and you have agreed to +pay it as part of the price of their fish?-When I first went into the +trade 12s. per ton was paid for drying fish to the crofters to whom I +refer. After a short time they complained about the 1s. per ton +for the use of the beaches and our firm then raised the price of +curing to 14s. per ton, which we paid, if I mistake not, for two or +three years when no other firm in Shetland paid it. Now, as I +understand, other firms in Shetland are paying the same money, +14s. per ton for curing; but 12s. was the original price when I +entered into the trade. + +16,475. Is that for drying also?-Yes. + +16,476. If a price were fixed at the time of landing the fish, and +were paid in the way you mentioned, by one of several competing +purchasers, do you see any difficulty in the way of a fisherman +continuing to live and support himself, as an operative in any trade +has now to do?-There would be very great difficulty at first, +because the greater proportion of fishermen in Shetland are +dependent on the supplies which they receive from the fish-curer +to whom they fish. At many times the weather is so bad that +they have not sufficient to live upon, and are obliged to go to the +fish-curer and ask him for the necessaries of life for themselves +and their families. + +16,477. But in a time of slackness in the iron trade, or any other +trade the same difficulty might beset the operative?-Yes, he +might be in want of supplies. I have no doubt that the operatives +in Lancashire and the manufacturing districts often suffer what our +Shetland fishermen have no conception of. I thoroughly believe, +however, that any sufferings which they might be exposed to in the +first instance might be relieved in some way, which I cannot at +present suggest; but still afterwards their condition would be +greatly improved, because such a system would give them a great +deal more self-reliance, and the knowledge that they were simply +getting payment for what they delivered would make them more +independent and more energetic. I believe the result would be a +greatly increased fishery in the islands, and the throwing over of +that serf spirit which exists at present among so many of the +tenants in the islands who fish. + +16,478. Is it not the case that the Shetland fisherman has an +advantage over the operative in the south, in respect that he has +got a piece of land, which of itself is often sufficient to support +him and his family during the greater part of the year?-Generally +speaking, the crofts would do so. It would be a very poor croft +indeed which would not support them for at least six months a +year. In such a case the piece of ground must be very small, or at +all events it may be their own indolence which leads them not to +make the most of it; but in that way the Shetland fishermen have +a great advantage over the operatives in the town, who, if they do +not earn a day's wages, cannot get a single farthing's worth of +food, except from the charity of others. + +16,479. But then it is said that the fishing is it more precarious +trade, and extends only over it period of the year in Shetland. +Does that not counterbalance any advantage which the fisherman +derives from having a croft?-It is true that the fishing is a +precarious trade, but we have always found that whenever the +weather permits, energetic men can make a very fair earning from +it. Of course, when the weather does not permit, it is impossible +they can do anything except in the way of inshore fishing; but +unless the weather is very bad indeed, if a man will only try he will +get as much from that as will save his family from starvation. I +think the advantage he has by his croft will compensate for any +disadvantage to which he is exposed by the occurrence of periods +of bad weather; and therefore I consider that his position is +infinitely superior to that of an operative in a time of strike or it +time of bad trade, when manufacturers are obliged to cast off their +hands from want of sufficient work to keep their mills or their +manufactories going. + +16,480. Do you consider he would be better even if a system of +cash payments were introduced, and he did not fall back or +could not fall back upon the fish-curer when he was in want of +supplies?-I consider it would be much better. + +16,481. Would a system of cash payments be an insuperable +obstacle in the way of a man of steady and respectable habits and +good repute, obtaining advances in provisions from any merchant +in his neighbourhood?-I believe it would help him very +considerably. I consider that if it system of cash payments was +introduced, [Page 418] a man would find a great deal more facility +in getting goods at the lowest possible price from any person who +might wish to put up a store in his neighbourhood. + +16,482. Are you aware that a great amount of apprehension exists +among fishermen in Shetland lest any change in the present system +involving payments in cash should deprive them of the support +which they derive from the fish-merchants in bad seasons?-I am +aware that that is a very prevalent idea among them, and several +instances of it have come under my notice during the last two or +three years. + +16,483. Are you of opinion that that apprehension may have had +some effect in making the fishermen unwilling to come forward +and to give evidence freely before this Commission?-I have +not the slightest doubt that that has prevented men from coming +forward who would have been able to have given the best possible +evidence with regard to the questions you have asked me. + +16,484. Are you now speaking from your knowledge of the people +and of the system for many years?-I am speaking from my +experience of the people and of the system, which experience has +extended over more than 20 years. + +16,485. Would it be possible to introduce a system of cash +payments in this way, by allowing the fish to be paid for at the +current price at the end of the season, if the parties so agreed, and +arranging that at delivery a certain proportion of the price should +be paid in cash: for example, that three-fourths of the average +price for the last five years should be paid them, leaving the +remainder of the price to be paid according to the current price +as ascertained at the end of the season, thus giving the men the +benefit of any rise which might take place in the market by that +time?-I am afraid that if such a system were adopted, the party +who got the fish from the men even on one occasion, and paid +three-fourths or two-thirds of the value of the fish delivered +according to the contract price, would have such a power over +the men, that, even supposing a competitor came forward, say in +a month afterwards, to buy their fish, they would not be able to sell +to him although he offered a higher price, because the knowledge +that there was a balance standing in the hands of the merchant to +whom they had sold in the first instance would hinder them from +taking advantage of the increased price from the other, for fear +they might not be treated in the way in which they ought to be at +the settlement. + +16,486. But the question which I put assumed that the engagement +of the fishermen was for the whole season?-I cannot see how in +that case it would alter the system. It would remain the same as it +is at present, because, if the engagement was entered into for the +year, although there might be no contract or obligation on the +fishermen to take supplies from the man who bought their fish, yet +there would be a certain feeling on their part which would force +them, as it were, to go with their money which they had received +as part payment, and buy goods with it from his place. Therefore +the merchant might have the same monopoly which he at present +enjoys. + +16,487. But if the men had the cash, would that monopoly be in +any way injurious,-if you can call it a monopoly where the men +have the choice between two shops, and voluntarily prefer that of +the fish-curer?-Under the present system of land tenure it would +have no effect, because whoever the landlord favoured, if the +landlord was not a fish-curer himself, would of necessity have the +preference in the dealings of the fishermen, as they would know +that under the present system they are liable to get forty days' +warning and be turned out of their farms at Martinmas. + +16,488. Do you mean that under the present system the fishermen +would consider themselves bound to deal at the shop of the +landowner or tacksman if he were engaged in fishing?-If a +system of money payments were adopted they might not consider +themselves bound to do so, but there would be so many petty +vexations put upon them, that the men, out of regard for their +own comfort, would decidedly give the preference to the +tacksmaster's or the landlord's shop, if he happened to be in the +trade, notwithstanding that they might have to pay a trifle more for +the goods which they got at his shop. + +16,489. Then is it your opinion that, without altering the system of +land tenure in Shetland, a system of cash payments would be +unavailing to improve the condition of the people?-If no landlord +and no tacksman under a landlord was in the fishery trade, then +an improvement might be effected, but so long as landlords and +tacksmen-who have power over the land sometimes to a much +greater degree than the landlord himself can exercise-are +fish-curers themselves, it is impossible that a system of cash +payments can have any effect in ameliorating the condition of the +fishermen as it now exists. + +16,490. In what way do you think it possible to modify the system +of long settlements now existing with regard to the Faroe +fishing?-The only way possible, seeing that the voyage to Faroe +extends to six or nine weeks on an average, would be, that when +the agreements are made out a contract should be entered into +between the owner and fishermen along with these agreements, +providing that they are to deliver their fish at a certain price per +ton weighed out on their arrival at a port in Shetland, whatever +port they may agree to deliver them at. + +16,491. Then, in the case of the Faroe fishery, you would suggest +that the price should be known before the vessel sails, and not, +as you propose with regard to the ling fishery, at the time of +delivery?-No, I don't say that. The difference is, that the owner +of a Faroe vessel, according to the present agreement, has the risk +of the vessel and of the outfit, and also of the salt and of materials +necessary for the prosecution of the fishery. In most cases, indeed +in all cases, he requires to give advances to a certain extent to the +crew, say from at the lowest to £7 or £8 in other cases. If he did +not have the power of getting the fish in his own hands, by having +a +contract from the men to deliver their fish to him at a certain +price rather than to others on their arrival after the first voyage the +men would have the power to deliver their fish perhaps to another +competitor, and the result would be, as is sometimes the case in +the Greenland trade at present, where the men are paid at the +Custom House, that his advances would not be paid to him at all. +The difference appears to me to consist in this, that the fish-curer +who gets the fish is the owner of the Faroe fishing vessel, whereas +in the ling fishing the men who fish in the boats are the owners of +them. That, in my opinion, makes a great difference. + +16,492. It is part of the agreement in the Faroe fishing that the +merchant should have delivery of all the fish, and that he is +entitled to it, because he is the partner of the men in all that +they take?-That it is the agreement + +16,493. Then you think it would be possible, and perhaps +expedient, that a settlement should take place at the return of +the vessel from each voyage?-I believe most of the owners +would agree to that; but my impression, from the feeling which +I know to exist among the fishermen, is, that they would have a +notion that they were lying under a disadvantage by making a +contract before the fishing commenced. + +16,494. Do you think the fishermen get any advantage in the Faroe +trade from having their fish paid for at the current price at the end +of the season?-They get a very considerable advantage in that +way. We have been in the habit for several years of purchasing +fish from vessels owned by Englishmen, and manned by English +fishermen from Grimsby and Hull. We pay them a certain price +per ton, cash down, when the fish are landed on the beach, and we +are supposed to make, and I may say that we do make, a profit +upon these fish when they are sold in a dried state. Our fishermen, +generally speaking, get within a commission of the price that we +receive for these Englishmen's fish, which fish are quite as good +as our Shetland fish, and therefore they have the difference of the +profit which we make on the price we pay for the fish in a green or +wet state and the price that we receive when the fish are dried. + +[Page 419] + +16,495. Then, if the settlement were to take place at each landing +of the fish, in whatever way it was made, you think the men would +lose that advantage?-I don't say they would lose in all cases. In +some cases they would gain. We have often lost in buying fish in +that state, because the markets at the end of the season have fallen +so very heavily. + +16,496. Would there be any objection, in your opinion, to bringing +the vessels employed in the Faroe trade under the regulations of +the Merchant Shipping Act applicable to foreign-going ships?- +There would be very great objection to that. It would ruin the +fishery altogether if there was the slightest restriction upon the +vessel sailing at any moment: a great part of a fishing voyage +might be lost. In my opinion, a delay of twenty-four hours has, +in many cases, hindered a crew of mine from gaining £100. + +16,497. When a vessel comes in from her first Faroe voyage, how +long does she usually remain in harbour?-That depends very +much on the energy displayed by the men in getting the fish out +and getting on board their supplies of salt and other fishing +material requisite for the next voyage. I know vessels which have +taken a week, and I know other vessels which have been off again +in forty-eight hours. It cannot be done in less time than that. + +16,498. I believe the vessels on their return don't always come +to Lerwick?-No; the most of them go to the west side,-to +Scalloway and the adjacent places in the islands. + +16,499. So that it would be necessary to have a Custom House +officer in each of these places, if any such regulations were +adopted with regard to the Faroe smacks?-It would be necessary +to have a Custom House officer in at least eight different places in +Shetland. + +16,500. Do you mean that there are eight places frequented by +these Faroe vessels where they are in the habit of landing their +cargoes?-There are eight places where the vessels go, no matter +at which place they land; but there are more than thirty or forty +different places in the islands at which they land their fish. I am +simply referring to the places where the owners of the vessels live, +and where the vessels go in order to receive stores and salt after +the fish have been landed. + +16,501. Then the fish may be landed at a different place altogether +from where the vessel has afterwards to receive her stores and +salt?-Yes. + +16,502. But they do go to one of these eight places invariably +before starting on their second voyage?-Yes. + +16,503. What are these eight places?-Voe, Vaila Sound, Skeld +Voe, Reawick, Bixter, Tresta, Whiteness, Scalloway, and Lerwick. + +16,504. Do you think it is advantageous for the fishcurer, as a +matter of business, to have a shop for the supply of his fishermen; +and do you think that a system of short payments or of cash +payments would be consistent with the fish-curer remaining +also the keeper of a shop?-I don't consider that it would be +advantageous for a fish-curer to have a shop where there was +sufficient competition to cause him to sell at the low rates of profit +which obtain in all places where there is a proper amount of +competition, because he undertakes a risk which otherwise he +would not do. He takes the risk of supplies to men who go to the +fishing, and who may come back without anything whatever. +Then, if he is not a landlord or tacksmaster, he knows perfectly +well that he has not power over these men to force them to serve +him for another year; and therefore I consider that if there was a +system of short payments, and if the fish-curer had no advances to +make to the men, he would be in a better position than at present, +if he is a man of capital, and was able to lie out of his money until +he could get the fish dried and prepared for market. There is no +doubt that fish-curers in Shetland would require to have more +capital than they do have if a system of short payments were +adopted, because they get credit, perhaps for months, for the goods +supplied to the fishermen; whereas if they had to pay cash they +would be placed in quite a different position. + +16,505. Do they get longer credit on their purchases of goods than +merchants in any other parts of the country in consideration of +them having to make these advances to fishermen?-I don't say +that they get longer credits, but they get sufficient credit perhaps +to enable them to get forward so much of their fish. And even +suppose they wished a longer credit, they could, from the +creditor's knowledge that they had such fish in their possession, +obtain a renewal of their bills. + +16,506. Are you aware that it is almost the invariable practice for +men employed by a fish-curer to take part of their supplies from +the shop of their employer?-That is the invariable practice. + +16,507. Do you think the men in general have any option as to +whether they are to do so or not? I am not speaking of your own +business merely, but of the trade generally throughout Shetland?- +In the case of men who are in debt they have no option whatever, +because other parties would not supply them, knowing that they +are bound to deliver the proceeds of their fishing to the fish-curer +for whom they fish. But I must also say, that notwithstanding that +there are a great number of men who have plenty of money to pay +for their advances, whether it is from a knowledge that they can +obtain them at the same prices as they can from others, or from +carelessness to look after the matter, they generally take advances +to a small extent from the party for whom they are fishing. + +16,508. You say that a man who is indebted has no option; but a +man who has no cash, although he may not be indebted, may be +equally without option, may he not, on the same grounds that you +have stated?-I should say that he has little option, unless he is a +man who is well known, and who has perhaps dealt with some +other shopkeeper or grocer previously, and paid him honestly. + +16,509. Are you aware whether it is common for the fish-curer +to make advances in cash to fishermen during the course of the +season, with which they can go and purchase their goods where +they please?-I cannot say that, to my knowledge, money has been +advanced to fishermen during the course of the season in order that +they may purchase goods where they please. I don't think that any +of the fishermen coming to ask for money would tell the fish-curer +from whom they were asking it for what reason it was being +required, unless it was to help to pay rent, or to buy meal or some +other necessary article for the house. + +16,510. Could he not get the meal at the shop of the fish-curer?- +In some cases he may not be able to do so. + +16,511. You say that fishermen frequently prefer to take advances +from their employer although they may have money of their +own?-I don't say that they prefer to take it; but I know in my +own experience, that, without any solicitation on the part of our +firm, men who have plenty of money always do take advances to a +certain extent. + +16,512. Do you suppose they do that in order to save them from +drawing their own money from the bank?-I believe that is the +case. + +16,513. Has it come within your observation whether a practice +of hoarding exists to a great extent in Shetland among the +fishermen?-I believe it does. + +16,514. Even among men who appear upon the books of the +merchant with whom they deal to be in his debt to some extent?- +I have known several cases of men who have allowed balances to +stand over against them year after year, when I knew perfectly well +that they had more than sufficient money in their possession to +have paid off the debt. + +16,515. How do you account for that?-I account for it in this way, +that the system has obtained so long of fishermen requiring +advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see or do not +understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy +the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have +no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a +sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they +have a right to keep [Page 420] their money and not to pay for +them until the end of the season. + +16,516. Have you or your firm had any connection with the agency +for Greenland ships?-None whatever. The only Greenland vessel +we ever had any connection with was a Dutch vessel, sent out by +an Amsterdam company last year, for the prosecution of the finner +whale fishing at Iceland. + +16,517. Is there any additional observation you have to make?- +The only other observation I have to make is with regard to the +evidence given by Mr. Walker at Edinburgh last year relative to +the payments to fishermen and their earnings. As the answers +which have been given by my firm in the circular sent in to you, +refer at least to one of the smallest years with respect to the men's +earnings, I should like to make a statement with regard to the gross +earnings, and the sums paid at settlement to the fishermen in the +previous year, that is, in 1870. For 81 men and boys employed by +us that year, after all the supplies which they had received during +the season had been paid by them out of their earnings the average +payment to each was £23, 15s., and in many cases those who had +the greatest earnings did not take up more than one tenth part of +them in supplies during the course of the season. Those men who +were free men, and who were not bound to fish in any direction +except where they wished, were the men who took up the least +advances. I now exhibit a statement for the year 1870, proving +what I have stated. It refers to six vessels. The gross earnings +of the 81 men and boys in that year were £3022, 18s.; the total +amount paid in cash was £1923, 0s. 3d., or an average of £23, 15s. + +16,518. You mentioned that certain men left your father's island +after having cleared off their debt: where did they go?-They went +to various other places; they entered chiefly into the Faroe fishing. + +16,519. Did any of them return to fish for tacksmen, and deliver +their fish green as they had done formerly?-None of them. + +16,520. Is it not the case that some of them went to Burra and +resumed fishing, and delivered their fish green to the tacksmen +there?-The father of the family went to Burra. + +16,521. Did you refer to one family consisting of a father and +several sons?-Yes. + +16,522. Did the father resume his old system of fishing Burra?- +Yes. + +16,523. Why did he return to Burra?-Because the boys got +dissatisfied with the system under which they were fishing, and +the old man, of course, finding himself without the help of his +sons, could do nothing else than take a croft of land, and try to eke +out a living in the best way he could. + +16,524. Then, although the men cleared off their debt in the way +you have described, by drying their own fish and selling them to +you in a dried state, the boys became dissatisfied with that system +of fishing?-They became dissatisfied with it, because it was not +sufficient to keep them. + +16,525. Although it cleared off their debt?-No, they had not +cleared it off at the time they left. They cleared it off in +consequence of going to the Faroe fishing or elsewhere. + +16,526. Then the system of fishing that you refer to, and curing +their own fish, did not enable them to clear off their debt?-It did +not; but they might never have been in debt if they had been more +economical. + +16,527. But you referred to that change in their mode of fishing, as +showing the effect produced by the difference in the green price +and the dry price for fish?-Yes; and if they had remained long +enough, I have no doubt they might have cleared off their debt as +well as others. + +16,528. Then you think they did earn more under that system than +under the other system?-Yes. + + +Lerwick, February 6, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined. + +16,529. Are you in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co. in +Lerwick?-I am. + +16,530. I believe you desire to give some further evidence on their +behalf, with regard to the mode of dealing with men engaged for +the seal and whale fishing?-Yes. + +16,531. You have prepared a written statement, which you wish to +give in as part of your evidence?-Yes. + +[The witness put in the following statement:-] + + 'I am in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co., and have been for +upwards of 28 years, during which time I have had the chief +management of their ship-agency business, and particularly +as to that part of it connected with the whale ships. It was my part +to bring the men and the masters together, and attend to the +engagement of the crews. The masters invariably chose the men +themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard +whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my +employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. The +masters generally selected first those men who had been with him +the previous voyage and that pleased him, and it was no +uncommon thing for men to go with the same master for many +years. When the men were engaged they always had the option of +getting their first month's advance in cash, even before the recent +regulations of the Board of Trade; and if they wished it, they also +got allotment notes, but they seldom took the latter. In the cases +where they did not take all their first month's advance in cash, it +was when they required a much larger advance in the shape of +warm clothing than the advance could obtain for them. Men going +to Greenland require various articles that are not wanted by home +fishermen, and which have to be prepared for them specially. +Previous to the year 1867 a large proportion of the crews shipped +here were young lads from 16 years old and upwards, and the +wages from 15s. to 25s. per month. A month's advance could +go but a small way in procuring the clothing necessary for such +a voyage, and an allotment note could not help them, because +sealing voyages were generally short, seldom exceeding two +months. The agents had therefore to trust to their getting +oil-money and to their honesty in repaying the second year what +they could not pay the first. Without such assistance these young +men could not go to Greenland; and the consequence of the recent +regulations of the Board of Trade having been to prevent them +getting the necessary clothing, few of them are now shipped. Of +the four crews, consisting of 97 men, shipped by us in 1871, only +three lads were under 19 years of age; while in 1866, of the four +crews of 67 men, 19 were under that age. Before 1867 I was able +to do the greater part of the work of engaging and settling with the +crews myself, but since then I have had to be assisted by one or +more of the other clerks in the establishment. My employers, that +year, foreseeing the extra trouble that would arise from the new +regulations, and that the ship agency would interfere with their +ordinary business, arranged with the other agents to insist on +getting a higher rate of commission, add intimated to the owners +for whom they acted, that they would in future charge 5 per cent. +instead of 21/2. They were induced to depart from this, because the +agreement was not adhered to by some of the other agents; but +they have continued in the trade with much reluctance, and chiefly +at my instigation, and from friendly feelings for certain of the +masters, for whose fathers and grandfathers even the firm had +acted. In 1867, and since then, the men have always got their first +month's advance in cash at the Shipping Office; they have also +been paid in cash the balance owing to them at the end of the +voyage whenever they chose to ask it, irrespective of any advances +that had been made to them for clothing; but, as a rule they always +came promptly and voluntarily to pay their accounts when so +settled, and I am not aware of any case where they required to be +compelled to do so. The men are very seldom in debt, and we do +our [Page 421] utmost to prevent their being so instead of +encouraging it, as has been stated in a report made to the Board +of Trade. Whenever the ships came to Lerwick on their return +voyage, we always endeavoured to get the men to wait and be +discharged in a body, but even then could not always effect it; and +when they were landed at other parts of the islands we found it +quite impossible. It is not true, so far as Hay & Co. are concerned, +that they ever took means to prevent the masters coming to +discharge their men at Lerwick. On rare occasions, when the ships +have come in, and the masters have been anxious to get away +again without waiting to attend at the Shipping Office, I may have +written at their request a letter of excuse to the shipping master, +but certainly never advised them to go away. It is quite true that +when I have paid off men before the shipping master, who had +accounts to settle, I have told them to go down to the office and I +would follow. Once or twice men have offered to pay me at the +Shipping Office, and particularly on one occasion when a man had +a trifle to pay he offered it there, which seemed greatly to offend +the shipping master, who appeared to dislike the trouble of having +to take the men separately. I have been told that a larger +proportion of advances in clothing is made to the Peterhead men +than to our people, and that such is charged in the masters' +accounts there, although not permitted here.' + +16,532. You say in that statement, 'The masters invariably chose +the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard +whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my +employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. In +point of fact, were the men engaged by the masters not generally +indebted to the agent?-The masters knew nothing about that. + +16,533. But were they not so in point of fact?-They were not, in +most cases. + +16,534. Had they not arranged in most cases, before going on +board the ship or going before the master, to take part of their +outfit from your firm?-No; they came and asked that after they +had been engaged. + +16,535. Did they not purchase their outfit until they had been +engaged?-No. + +16,536. Had you many cases of men who were engaged by masters +through you purchasing their outfit from other shops?-I cannot +say. Sometimes I believe that was the case; but of course I could +not know what they did in other shops. + +16,537. Did all of them come to your shop for part of their outfit +at least?-Generally for part of it; but I have seen men who had +nothing from our shop except what are called mess things-things +which the men have to provide jointly. + +16,538. I understand you collect the men and take them before the +captains?-Yes. + +16,539. Do you make any selection of them before doing so?-No; +the captain selects his own men. If the men are strange to the +captain, he may ask me if I could find a good man for him, and I +may do so, and have done it; but that is the only kind of selection +have made. + +16,540. But before the men are taken before the captain at all, is +there no negotiation on your part as to the men who are to go?- +No. If the man has gone in a ship before, he will come and tell me +that he wants to go again in that particular ship. + +16,541. Do you present a list of the men to the master?-The +master generally has a list of his last year's hands, and if he likes +them he will take them again, or any part of them he chooses; and +if any of them are not suitable for him, he selects the rest from the +other men who come forward. + +16,542. But do the men that the master selects all come up before +him without any list of their names being made beforehand?-He +generally has a list of his former crew there to look at. + +16,543. Is there any list of the other men besides those of his +former crew?-No. + +16,544. Are the names of the men wanting engagements not +entered in your books?-No. + +16,545. Do you not keep a list of the men who come to you asking +to be engaged?-We never do that. The men are always there, and +I just tell them to be at the place when the master comes, and then +he takes his own men. + +16,546. But if a man comes in from the country or applies to you +for an engagement before the vessel arrives, would you not take a +note of that?-No. I merely tell him to be there at the time, and +see if there vacant berth that will suit him. + +16,547. Do you go up with him before the master?-He goes along +with the rest. + +16,548. Do you, as acting for Messrs. Hay, ever refuse the +application of any man who comes wanting Perth?-We cannot +do so, because we always leave that to the master, who can take +any man he chooses. + +16,549. Do you ever refuse to suggest a man to the master, or to +bring him before the master?-I never refused to do that, unless +he was a useless man that I knew was of no use. + +16,550. Then you have refused to suggest a man in such a case?- +Yes; if a man was not a good hand, or the like of that, I would tell +the master so, and then he could take him or not as he chose. + +16,551. But have you ever said to a man when he came applying +for a berth, 'I cannot take you,' or 'I won't take you, before the +captain?'-Not to my recollection. + +16,552. Then a man might as well go to the master at once as +apply through you for an engagement?-The master comes to +the place to select his own men, and some of them go on board +and apply to him themselves. + +16,553. If you make no selection at all beforehand, is there any use +for them applying to an agent? Might the men not go to the master +at once and be selected by him, without your intervention at all?- +They might; but the master wants an agent to assist him in +collecting his men. + +16,554. What assistance does the agent give him?-He helps him +in engaging them. For instance, the articles are all filled up by +the agent, except the names, before going to the Custom House, +so as to facilitate business there. Perhaps there may be a number +of ships lying here at one time, and there are a number of +arrangements to be made. The agent carries through all that, +and the master has merely to attend at the Custom House and +see the thing completed. + +16,555. That is to say, you give the master certain assistance after +he has selected the men?-After he has selected the men we take +down their names, their places of birth, and so on, and enter them +in the articles. + +16,556. But before he selects the men the agent has done +nothing?-No further than that if a man comes wanting an +engagement, the agent will tell him that the master will be on +shore at a certain time, and the men are told to be there. + +16,557. Is that the statement which is invariably made the men +applying for berths to you, without exception?-Yes, invariably; +except it is a man that I know is of no use and then I may tell him +that I can say nothing for him. + +16,558. How many men out of 100 applicants might you say that +to?-Not many. I never turn any away if the man chooses to go +and take his chance; but if I know that the man is not a suitable +hand, I tell him that he cannot expect me to recommend him. But +there are very few men of that kind. + +16,559. Do you remember any cases in 1871 in which you +intimated to the men that they were of no use, and that they +would not get a berth?-I don't recollect any. + +16,560. Do you remember any particular cases of that kind in the +year previous?-I do not recollect any. + +16,561. Have you ever intimated to any man who was owing you +an account that he was of no use, and would not get a berth?-No, +not to my knowledge. + +16,562. In what way do you know that a man is of [Page 422] no +use?-By being told by masters that he was of no use. + +16,563. Have you a general knowledge of the men's abilities from +their reputation?-Yes, from what I hear from the sailors who +have gone in the same ship; or if the master has found them not to +be suitable hands, he tells me not to send them to him again. But +there are very few instances of that kind; perhaps not one out of +100 or 200. + +16,564. Was that the mode of selecting the men which was in use +five or six years ago?-They were all selected in the same way by +the master; he was always present. + +16,565. But had not the agents more power in selecting the men +some time ago than they have exercised lately?-Not so far as we +were concerned. I cannot speak for others. + +16,566. When a man went to another agent for employment, being +in debt to Hay & Co., was it usual for that agent to enter the men's +debt to you in his books, in order to obtain a settlement of it for +you?-Not lately; but sometimes it has been done. + +16,567. Was it done on the application of Messrs. Hay?-Yes. + +16,568. Does the captain apply to you for some opinion as to the +qualifications of the men?-Yes, if he does not know them +himself. + +16,569. You have told me that you have generally made yourself +pretty well acquainted with the men's abilities?-Yes. + +16,570. Then I suppose only a certain proportion of each crew +shipped at Lerwick consists of men who have been in that +captain's employment previously, perhaps one third?-Sometimes +they had almost all been in the same ship before, but they changed +agents occasionally. Perhaps sometimes one half of them might +re-ship. + +16,571. But very often the captain would secure one half or one +third of new hands?-Yes. + +16,572. In that case you must be consulted a good deal about the +qualifications of the men?-Yes. I tell the master about them, so +far as I know; and in some cases, perhaps if he ships a man, that +man may be able to recommend another to him. + +16,573. But I suppose the captain attaches considerable weight to +your recommendation?-Perhaps he does. + +16,574. Have you any reason to doubt that he does?-I have not. I +would not recommend a man if I did not know him to be a good +hand. + +16,575. Has a captain ever refused to follow your recommendation +and to take a man whom you had recommended?-When he had +plenty of men of his own, of course he would take no others than +them. + +16,576. But when he was in want of men, did he generally follow +your recommendation?-Sometimes I have seen him in doubt +between two or three men whom I have recommended, and he +selected any one of the three that he liked himself. + +16,577. If you recommended one man in preference to another, +have you ever seen him take a man of whom you disapproved?- +In some instances I have seen him take a man who had been +recommended to him by another that he had engaged, instead of +a man that I could recommend. The man had sailed with him +before, and he recommended another man with whom he was +acquainted, and the captain engaged him. + +16,578. In that case he might suppose that the shipmate had a +more intimate knowledge of the man's abilities than you could +have from hearsay?-That is very likely. + +16,579. But if there were no such influences as that, have you ever +known the captain refusing to follow your recommendation?-No. +If he asked me for good man, and I could bring him one and did it, +he took him. + +16,580. Has any captain complained that you, or those acting for +Messrs. Hay & Co., had suggested men who were not preferable +on account of their abilities, but who were owing accounts, or +were likely to incur accounts to Messrs. Hay?-It is very seldom +that I had the chance of recommending men who were in debt to +us. I never studied that in recommending a man to a master. + +16,581. Was that because you had so few accounts with the +men?-We generally had accounts with them all when they +went out but there were a few that we had no accounts with. + +16,582. Have you any doubt that the men were under the +impression or had an understanding that they ought to get their +supplies and their outfit, to a certain extent at least, from the +agent who engaged them?-They expect that the agent will +supply them. + +16,583. But does the agent expect that they will give him their +custom?-There is no force in that case. + +16,584. I am not saying there is force, but does the agent expect +that?-We must provide for it, whether they want it or not. + +16,585. What must you provide?-We must provide clothing for +the men in case they want it. + +16,586. But does the agent expect that the men whom he engages +for the Greenland whale fishing will come to him for their outfit, +or part of it?-Yes, because they had generally done so; but they +have never been forced to do so. + +16,587. I am not saying that they are forced, but does the agent +expect that?-Of course he does, and he is prepared for it. + +16,588. Do the men know that he expects that?-I daresay they do. + +16,589. Was not that the principal consideration in inducing the +agents to undertake to carry on the agency?-I cannot say what it +was in former times, because there was an agency in the house +before my time, and I came into it after it was established. + +16,590. But is it not the case that you are giving up the business +because the 21/2 per cent. commission is an insufficient +remuneration for your trouble?-Yes, it is insufficient for +the trouble we have; and I daresay if it had not been for the +circumstance that the present masters are sons and. grandsons +to masters who had been coming to the house long ago, we would +have given it up sooner. + +16,591. Have accounts for outfit and supplies for men employed in +the Greenland fishing become less in recent years than they were +ten or a dozen years ago?-I daresay in some cases they have. + +16,592. Is it not the case that they have done so upon the whole?- +Yes, because there are not so many green hands taken now as there +were then. + +16,593. You have found it necessary to restrict your credits to +them?-On the short voyages we have. A voyage of two months +is not like one of five or six months. + +16,594. You have therefore lost part of the profit which formerly +accrued upon these agencies?-Of course if the outfits are less, the +profits must be less. + +16,595. Is that the reason why you have found it necessary to give +up the business?-That is not the reason. It is because of the +trouble we had with them. I believe we have perhaps sold as much +to the men this year as we did when we had the agency. + +16,596. Even when you had a great number of green hands?- +There are not many green hands going now, because the outfits +cannot be given to them. That has been the experience of the last +few years. + +16,597. But, apart from green hands, is not the amount of out-takes +by these men less than it was ten or fifteen years ago?-With some +men it is as much, and with others far less. + +16,598. Do you think that upon the whole it is less?-I have not +looked into that, and I could not be sure about it. + +16,599. Have you any general impression about that matter?- +When there were some green hands going of course they required +a larger outfit than they require now. + +16,600. I am putting the green hands out of view altogether; I am +referring to the able seamen. Do you think that their accounts +altogether are not less than they were formerly?-In some cases +they are. + +16,601. Are they not less upon the average?-I daresay [Page 423] +they are, because men do not require so much now as they used to. + +16,602. Is it not the case that you have been less willing to make +large advances to any class of seamen since the regulations of the +Board of Trade in 1867 or 1868?-We would give some men what +they required, and to others we would not. + +16,603. Do you mean that to men you knew you would give what +they required?-Yes, but to strangers we would not. + +16,604. Is that because your security in the case of strangers is +much less than it was formerly?-Yes. + +16,605. Is not that one reason why you are giving it up?-No. +The chief reason is that the commission is small, and the trouble +is great. We cannot get all the men together at one time for +settlement, or else it would be soon done. + +16,606. But if you had the same returns from the men's accounts +which you had formerly, would not that be sufficient remuneration +for your trouble?-It would not. + +16,607. Would you require larger accounts now than you had +before, even at the most flourishing time?-No, not larger +accounts; but we would require a better commission. + +16,608. But larger accounts would serve the same purpose, would +they not?-I don't know. We have so much trouble in bringing the +men together and getting them settled, that the commission is not +sufficient for it, and in fact our people wished to give it up in +1867. + +16,609. In what respects is the trouble greater than it formerly +was?-Because the men don't come together, and we have +perhaps to go up with one and then with another, until we get +the whole crew discharged. + +16,610. Do you mean that formerly you settled at your own +office?-Yes. We did so before the Board of Trade regulations +were adopted, and we could take the men at any hour in the day +and settle their counts with them; but when we have to go to the +Custom House, we can only do that in the Custom House hours, +and that entails a great deal of extra time and trouble. + +16,611. I suppose that in the case of each ship that may involve a +dozen visits to the Custom House?-Possibly it may; sometimes +more and sometimes less. We try to get as many of the men +forward as possible when the ship arrives, if she comes to Lerwick. + +16,612. Will each of these visits to the Custom House occupy an +hour?-I would not say that it would occupy an hour. + +16,613. Could you do it in half an hour?-Possibly we might. + +16,614. You would not have more than twenty visits to the Custom +House in the case of any ship?-I could not say the number. I +have known sometimes that we had to go to the Custom House +with one man, and when we came down to the office we found +another man ready, and we had just to return again. + +16,615. You say in your statement that you are not aware of any +case where the men required to be compelled to come forward and +pay their accounts?-No. They have always come forward after +coming from the Custom House and paid their accounts. + +16,616. I suppose the men understand that they are expected to pay +their accounts at that time?-Yes, when they get their money. + +16,617. Is that the understanding upon which the advances are +made to them?-Yes, they know that. + +16,618. What would be the consequence if they did not pay at that +time?-We would just have to take steps to get payment; that +would be the only consequence. + +16,619. If a man declined to pay at that particular time, would you +have any objection to get him a berth next year?-We could not +refuse him, if the master chose to take him. + +16,620. But would you help a man to get a berth if he was in debt +for the previous year?-I would not care much for that, + +16,621. Could you not prevent him from getting access to the +captain along with the other men?-No. The place is open for +any one to come in, and I could not prevent him. + +16,622. But he would have to apply directly to the captain?-Yes, +he would have to apply to the captain for a berth; but they all do +that. + +16,623. But I understand the captain only takes the men who are +secured by you?-No; I never said that. The men come to the +place themselves, and they know the place as well as we do, +because it is always crowded with men, and the captain chooses +from among them, what men he wants. + +16,624. Are there usually more men than berths?-Yes. + +16,625. And I believe there is often a great crush to get into the +presence of the captain?-Yes, generally. + +16,626. Do you tell me that a man who is in discredit with you, +and who has not your good word, or rather who is in your black +books, has any chance of getting a berth from a captain?-We +never had any experience of such a case, because the men have +always paid their accounts. + +16,627. Don't you think they have done that under the +apprehension that they would not get a berth in the following +year, if they did not do so?-I don't know that. + +16,628. Might not that be a reasonable explanation of the +punctuality with which they come down from the Custom +House and pay their accounts?-It might be, but I cannot say. +They never expressed anything of that kind to me and I have no +reason for thinking so. The men whom we trust are honest men, +and we knew they would pay their accounts. If we thought they +were not honest men, who would come down and pay their +accounts, we would not advance them. + +16,629. Would you not give them advances in goods?-No. We +always give them the first month's advance in cash. + +16,630. But you would not advance them goods if you thought +they would not come direct from the Custom House and pay their +accounts?-No, not unless they came on their return. + +16,631. Have you any doubt that if the master of the ship and the +agent concurred in telling the men to go up to the Custom House at +once, and have their accounts settled, the men would attend to that +direction?-I have done that myself. I have asked the men on +board ship before they left it to remain in town until they were +discharged at the Custom House, and I could not get them to do so. + +16,632. If you told them that you would decline to pay them +afterwards, would they not do so?-They knew we could not do +that. I remember once making the remark to the shipping master +that the law should be imperative upon the men as well as upon +the master or agent; and unless that is done I believe the system +will never be other than it is. + +16,633. When did you tell the men to remain in town until they +were discharged?-I have done that several times in late years. + +16,634. Did you fix a day when they were to attend?-They know +that they should do so within twenty-four hours. For instance if +they landed today, we would settle with them tomorrow. + +16,635. Would you have any difficulty in doing that?-None. + +16,636. Have you ever had any conversation with the men when +engaging them with regard to the outfit or supplies they wanted?- +Yes. I have had such conversations with them in the shop after +they were engaged. They generally go to the country after they are +engaged and come back again; there is a certain time allowed to +them. + +16,637. Had you ever any such conversations with them before +they were engaged?-Not about supplies. + +16,638. Or about outfit?-No. We don't know what they want +until after they are engaged. + +16,639. Have you not asked them what they wanted, in order to +know?-No. I suppose they can hardly tell themselves until after +they begin to inquire. + +16,640. But have you never had any conversation with them [Page +424] on the subject before engaging them?-We don't know +whether they would be engaged or not until after the engagement +was made. + +16,641. Have you never had any conversation about what they +might want in the event of their being engaged?-I don't recollect +doing anything of that kind. It is generally afterwards that any +conversation takes place about supplies. + +16,642. I suppose, as a matter of course, there is some +conversation about that after the men are engaged: they always +want something?-When they come to town again before they +sail they must have some warm clothing, because men going in +that employment require warmer clothing than in any other +climate. + +16,643. How long is it after the men are engaged before they come +back?-They may come back next day, or two days afterwards, or +any time the minister fixes for sailing. + +16,644. Does the vessel usually lie in Lerwick for some days?-I +have sometimes seen her sail on the following day, or sometimes +two or three days afterwards. The master fixes the time when the +men have to be on board, and they must all be in Lerwick, able to +go on board the same day. + +16,645. So that in that case there is not much time to arrange about +outfit or supplies?-No; I have known men engaged on one day, +and go to sea the next. + +16,646. Did you give any allotment notes?-We always paid them +in cash at the Shipping Office. + +16,647. Did you generally give such notes?-Yes, on long +voyages, but on sealing voyages we did not. + +16,648. Were these notes taken in name of the man's relations?- +Yes; of his wife, or father, or sister, or brother. + +16,649. Were they not sometimes taken in the name of the agent +who was giving them supplies?-No; they were addressed to the +agent, to be paid by him. + +16,650. But were they not also taken in the name of the agent or of +some of his clerks?-Not that I am aware of. + +16,651. Was that never done by Hay & Co.?-Not to my +recollection. + +16,652. Would you be surprised to learn that it had been done in +other houses in Lerwick?-It may have been done, but I cannot +tell. + +16,653. In the conversations you have with the men about their +outfit or supplies, is it not usual to suggest what they should take, +and where they should get it?-No. We ask them what they want; +but sometimes, if it is a man we are doubtful about, we refuse to +give him all that he asks. + +16,654. But if it is a man you are not doubtful about, do you +always ask him what he wants?-We have done that, but he +knows what he wants without being asked, and he takes what is +necessary. + +16,655. Is there any other person here who wishes to make any +further statement, or to tender additional evidence?-[No answer.] +Then I adjourn the sittings in this place. + +<Adjourned>. + + +KIRKWALL; THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1872 + +THOMAS WILSON, examined. + +16,656. I am a weaver in Kirkwall. I was born in Fair Isle, and I +lived there till two years and nine months ago. There are between +thirty and forty families in Fair Island. They live chiefly by fishing +for cod, ling, and saith. They fish chiefly in summer. They have +always had to sell their fish to the proprietor, that being a +condition of their holding their farms. Their farms are from four +to six acres in extent, with a right to the scattald. I believe since I +left, they are not allowed to pasture their cattle on the scattald +without paying for it. The island belonged, when I first remember, +to Mr. Stewart of Brough, in Orkney, whose tacksmen were first +Mr. William Strachan, Dundee, and afterwards John Hewison, +Westray. Mr. Bruce bought the island about 1864. I remember for +about fifteen or twenty years before 1864. I am thirty-five years of +age. The people had to sell all their fish to Mr. Strachan and Mr. +Hewison. They were told so by them. It was always the custom to +sell their fish to the tacksman, who also kept a shop for the sale of +goods. There was always a shop, but sometimes no goods were in +it. I have seen it without meal for more than ten days, and then the +people had no resource but fish, or milk, or anything they could +get. That happened in summer. In winter the people always had a +supply of meal of their own. There are three or four water-mills +on the island, where the people grind their own meal. They are the +old-fashioned little mills usual in Shetland. When Mr. Bruce got +the property, the meal and goods generally became dearer than +they were before. I don't think we have ever wanted meal +altogether since he bought the island. We have had to send to +Sumburgh for it, but have generally got a supply before our meal +was quite done. Sometimes, however, it has been very scarce. +When Strachan and Hewison had the island, any one might come +to the island to trade; and sometimes James Rendall, of Westray, +and sometimes James Smith, Cunningsburgh, came with boats +bringing goods and meal. They sold about the same rates as +Hewison and Strachan. The reason why we ran short was, that we +could not got notice sent. The steamer did not use to stop for us +then, but now we get her to stop for a letter. We have had to sell +the fish to Mr. John Bruce, jun. and to him only, since Mr. Stewart +sold the island. The price of fish has been fixed by the man who +comes to settle, which is in June or July. That settlement is for the +previous year, up to the 1st of May immediately preceding. I have +seen them miss a year. I have been told that Mr. Bruce has missed +a year since I came to Kirkwall. There are very few pass-books. +The accounts are all read over to us. We couldn't always +remember everything we had got. I suppose we had just to take it +as it was. The factor on the island read over the accounts, and he +handed a note of the total to Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine, who came +to settle with us. We got cash if there was a balance in our favour, +but never in the course of the season. We never asked for money +during the season; it was no use to ask for it, for we would not get +it. I don't remember if any one ever asked for it. We could +sometimes buy from Rendall, who is the only person that has come +to trade there since Mr. Bruce bought the island. Since Mr. Bruce +came, he has not had liberty to trade; and he erected a stage on the +seashore, and people bought from him there. Formerly he and +Smith carried on their trade in the house where they lodged. I +suppose Mr. Bruce had forbidden that; at least all the people +understood so. They used to lodge with Mrs. Thomas Wilson, near +the shore. Rendall's prices were always a good deal lower than +the prices at the shop. Their tea and sugar were cheaper. Mr. +Bruce has tea at 11d., and I remember once at 15d. a quarter; +Rendall's was 10d. or 11d. sometimes, I think, as low as 9d. There +was not very much difference in the tea. Rendall always had sugar +at 6d., common grey sugar; Mr. Bruce's was regularly 7d. I +remember [Page 425] Mr Bruce once had loaf sugar at 1d. per oz., +or 14d. a lb., about 1867. I don't remember his having loaf sugar +in the shop at all at any other time. Rendall's sugar, I think, was +9d. Cottons were bought cheaper from Rendall. His were 10d or +11d., blue and white shirting: Mr Bruce's 1s., or once 16d. The +prices did not vary much at Mr Bruce's store from year to year. I +remember quite well the price of oatmeal in Fair Isle during my +last year there. I paid 30s. a boll. I sometimes got the price when I +got it, sometimes only when I settled. I think I knew the price that +year only when I settled. The account was sent to me that year +after I had left, and 17s. of balance due to me was remitted. I +know meal was that year 23s. or 24s. a boll in Kirkwall. Mr +Alexander Gibson, merchant, told me so as I came down here. I +have the account which was sent to me, in which the total amount +of the shop account is entered to my debit (£9, 13s. 4d.). The entry +'By amount from the 'Lessing' account, £6, 17s. 9d.,' which is put +to my credit, means payment for lodging to workmen, and for +work done by myself at the wreck of the 'Lessing' on Fair Isle. +The owners or insurers, I suppose, were the employers of the men +who worked at the wreck; but the money came through Mr Bruce. +'By cash, left as a deposit, 11th May 1868, £3,' was money I was +fool enough to leave in Mr Bruce's hands at previous settlement at +his request. I left it in his hands as my banker. I can't remember +buying meal from Rendall on any particular occasion that I could +specify. But I know I have bought it from him cheaper than I +could get it at the shop. I got it from Rendall at 26s., and I am +quite sure, that during the 4 or 5 years I was on the island under +Mr Bruce, I never got meal at the store for less than 30s. I +remember his (Rendall's) selling goods at night; but that was for +his own purposes:-to get his away as soon as he could. I think I +have heard of him selling goods at night one time when Mr Bruce +and Mr Irvine were there, when they were asleep, but I can't give +any distinct statement about that. In 1868, James Williamson, +Kirkwall had men working at the wreck of the 'Lessing,' which he +had bought. His meal was cheaper than that at the store. I had to +buy some of Williamson's as there was then none at the store. +That was in July. I was employed by Mr. Wilson, the factor, in +quarrying for a store Mr. Bruce was building. That was settled in +the account at the end of the year. All work was so settled I have +already shown. It is the entry 'By work with P. M'Gregor, at 1s a +day, 13s 7d.' + +Six families left Fair Isle, and came to Kirkwall in 1869. We all +left because meal was so dear, and wages were so low. They all +left of their own accord. I am sure they all left of their own +accord, and were not warned away by the landlord. About +100 people left, in my remembrance, for America in 1862. +Government helped them. There had been a great scarcity before +that. In general, there is always a scarcity some part of the year. +They live mostly on tea, and porridge, and oatmeal cakes. In +summer there is a little flour sometimes. They get plenty of fish +generally in winter, chiefly by fishing from the rocks. [Being +asked if he had anything more to say, depones:] Only about the +beach fee in the account already shown. I got only the £3 for the +whole half year I worked there. I wrought 22 weeks and a half, +and I was to get 5s. a week; but he said because I left the work to +work at the 'Lessing' I should get no more. I wrote about it to Mr. +Bruce, who wanted a detailed account of my work, which I gave +him; but I got no definite answer. When Williamson was working +at the 'Lessing,' he was not allowed by the laird to employ men +Fair Isle. The landlord or his factor said they would be put out if +they worked to him. I was forbidden to work to him myself. Mr. +Wilson and Mr. Irvine both forbade me to work to him. I was told +I would have to leave the island if I did. I was intending to go, and +did go, and am glad I goed [sic]. I have been far better off since I +left. I have had better wages, better food, and less work since. +The other people from Fair Isle who are here, would say the same, +I believe. I think Fair Isle people would be better off, if they had +liberty to buy and sell with any person they choose. + + +Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, MARY DUNCAN or QUIN, examined. + +16,657. I live in Kirkwall. I was born in Lerwick, and lived there +till 7 years ago. I have knitted for 20 years all sorts of articles of +hosiery. I knitted both with my own wool, and for the merchants. +I was always paid in goods. I never got a penny in money. I was +not much in need of it. I often earned 9s. or 10s. in a week when +veils were dear; but generally less than that. I knew many women +who depended entirely on knitting for a living; and they had to +take the goods and sell them for half-price, to any one who was +requiring them. It was sometimes not easy to find people who +would buy. They had just to ask among their friends if there was +any one who wanted the things they had. I know James Coutts, +provision merchant, used to take the goods from knitters. I knew +many people who gave them to him for tea and sugar, and +sometimes meal. I have been in his shop when such transactions +were carried on. I don't know if Robert Irvine dealt in that way. I +know Betty Morrison. I know that knitters disposed of their goods +to her. I have seen her come to my mother's house with tea and +sugar for sale. I knew they were from parties who had been +knitters to Mr. Linklater and other merchants. She told us who the +tea was from, so that we knew quite well it had been got from +some one who had been knitting. Sometimes, too, she would tell +who it belonged to. We always got it cheaper than it had been sold +in the shop. It was always dearer in these shops than in others, +sometimes 15d. a quarter, and we got it from Betty Morrison for +10d. That was very common. Jean Yates, and dozens of others, +hawked about goods got from knitters in the same way. I had to +buy a great deal more dress than I needed, because I could get +nothing else for it. Knitters have all plenty of clothes. Some of +them I know have far more clothes than food. I always sell my +knitting for money here. + +[Shown veil got from Grace Slater, February 5.] I would get +2s. 6d. in goods for that, when knitted with my own wool. Seven +years ago, and 3 years ago, when I was home, 1s. or 1s. 4d. in +goods, according to the market, would have been paid at Lerwick +to one who knitted such a veil with merchant's wool. + +[Shown veil from E. Malcomson, February 5.] I would get 1s. +6d. for the veil, wool and all, here. + + +Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, THOMAS PEACE, examined. + +16,658. I am a partner of the firm of Peace & Love, drapers, +Kirkwall. I deal considerably in Shetland hosiery, mostly bought +in Shetland. I get most from merchants, and a little from private +parties, knitters, who meet me at Lerwick. I go there annually. I +pay both in cash. I don't get any cheaper, or very little cheaper, +from the knitters than from the merchants. I have bought as cheap +from the shops as I can buy from knitters. I have no means of +knowing whether merchants in Lerwick make any profit on the +hosiery. I have been told I was getting goods in the shops at the +same price they were bought in at. I never saw the goods bought +in. I found knitters in Lerwick eager to sell to me rather than to +the merchants there. They at first asked me 50 per cent. more than +I could buy the articles in the shops. I told them they were for +sale. I have had so much difficulty with them in fixing a price that +I now buy the most of my goods from the merchants. + +I think a cash system would be much better for parties. I don't +think it would affect my business as a [Page 426] purchaser from +the wholesale dealers in Lerwick. I think it would be better for the +knitters if they got clear with the merchants. I think most of them +are in debt to the merchant's shops. Any system would be better +than running accounts from one year to another, and from the +beginning of one's life to the end. + +<Adjourned> + + +KIRKWALL; FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 9 1872 + +Present-MR GUTHRIE. + +LAURENCE WILSON, examined + +16,659. I am a fisherman in Kirkwall. I was born and lived in Fair +Isle till April 1869. I left because three of us were working at the +'Lessing's' wreck, and we heard we were warned for working at it +contrary to the master's (Mr Bruce's) orders, and we left that we +might not be warned. There was nothing to do at the fishing at the +time worth waiting for, so I and they went to the work. I +considered I was under no obligation to fish for him if I could +better my circumstance any other way. I was only bound not to +fish for any other man than Mr Bruce;-not to fish to him while I +could get any other employment. The others who left, did not +leave for that reason, but just to better their circumstances. Prices +at Bruce's shop were higher than in Strachan's and Hewison's +time. Prices were very much raised at the time of the American +War, when Mr Bruce got the island. I think prices were higher in +Fair Isle than was necessary to cover the prices of carriage. I have +no pass-book, for no pass-books were called for or used there. +[Produces account for 1868, obtained from Mr Bruce] It was sent +to me after I left Fair Isle. 'By amount from boat's account, £4, 0s. +3d.;' that's the price of fish. 'By a quey, sold by auction at +Dunrossness cattle sale, 19s., less money and auction expenses, 5s. +6d.-13s. 6d.' We were not allowed to sell our cattle to any one +but Mr Bruce. The factor told us. I never attempted to sell cattle +to any one else; but no doubt others did. I left the island before the +time when Thomas Wilson wanted to sell his cow to Rendall for +£5, 10s. If that was so, I think I could have got more for my quey +than 19s., but never was offered more. Mr. Bruce did not settle for +the spring fishing when he came to Fair Isle in summer; but only +up to the end of the year. I bought some meal from James Rendall +in summer. It was cheaper than I got it at the same time from the +shop. I can't tell exactly the price paid to Rendall that year; but I +remember well enough that the shop price was 30s. a boll. I +bought from Rendall at 24s. in 1868, and Mr Bruce's price was +then 30s. Rendall was also cheaper than the shop in 1867. I got +from Rendall tea at 9d. and 10d., while the shop was 11d. and 13d. +I am not a very good judge of tea. Rendall's sugar was 6d. +(common soft), shop sugar of the same quality being 7d. Rendall's +loaf sugar was 8d. I have never bought that sugar at the shop; but I +heard factor tell others it was 13d. a pound. I had no particular +need of it at that price. There was no difference in the price of +coffee. Rendall's cottons were also cheaper, but I don't remember +the exact prices. I always keep my own account, and could check +the account as it was read over to me by the factor. When I lived +in the island I never got money till settlement, and never asked for +it, because it was usual. Before Mr Bruce's time we all went +sometimes to Orkney for meal, but not since, because he sent +supplies. That was partly because we did not need to go, and +partly because in Hewison's time we had leave to manufacture our +own oil, and we went to sell it, and brought back supplies. We +thought we had more of livers before than we got from Mr Bruce. +I don't remember getting meal from Mr Bruce for less than 30s. +When Mr Williamson was in the island I got some from him 3s. or +4s. a boll cheaper. Rendall was forbidden in Mr. Bruce's time to +sell his goods in Mrs. Wilson's house, and he began to sell them at +the shore. I think the men in Fair Isle would be better if they had +liberty to fish to whom they please. I think they would be better to +leave it altogether; for it is a very poor place, and they are subject +to many hardships. They remain because some of them are poor +and in arrears to the master, and have not means to get away. The +hardships are the want of a harbour for large boats: they never +have crews of more than three men or two, and two boys. They +are sometimes scarce of food in summer, and their boats are too +small for crossing often to Orkney or Shetland, though they do so +sometimes. It is often a great risk. Larger boats do come +sometimes in summer and anchor in a small harbour. They +sometimes haul them up; but a big boat can't stay there when +there's a weighty sea on, unless hauled up. I know we got 10s. a +ton less for fish than was paid at Grutness. It was only an account +brought by others that I was to be put away for working at the +'Lessing.' I told Wilson I was going away, and he said he got no +word from Mr. Bruce to that effect. After I prepared to go, Mr. +Bruce asked me to stay in the same farm. Rents were greatly +raised in Fair Isle,-I know that by a letter from the factor a short +time ago,-to the amount of £1 to £3 on each farm. Jerome +Wilson, the factor, is my uncle. Most people in the Fair Isle are +related to one another. Dr. Craig, now of Westray, Mr. Macfarlane +and Mr. Arthur have been clergymen in the Fair Isle in my time. I +think they always got their supplies from Lerwick. The women +sell their hosiery to Mr. Bruce, Mr. Warren, Kirkwall, and James +Rendall. All the wool is made up into cloth or hosiery before it +leaves the isle so far as I know. + + +Kirkwall, February 9, 1872, CHARLOTTE SUTHERLAND, examined. + +16,660. I live in Kirkwall. I am a knitter. I was brought up in +Lerwick, and lived there till 1867 or the beginning of 1868. I then +went to Edinburgh, and have been here since May. I was in +Lerwick for three weeks in April. I lived with my father, and +knitted goods, mostly for the merchants, but sometimes with my +own worsted. I did not need to support myself entirely till my +father died in 1866. After that, I knitted to Miss Jessie Ogilvy for +money, and for the shops for goods. I never asked money from the +shops. I got enough money to keep myself from private people; at +least I had to be content with it. I had to leave Lerwick for that +reason. Knitting does very well in Lerwick for those that have +friends to live with and keep them, but not for me when I had to +look out for myself. I knew a great many in Lerwick who lived +entirely by knitting. I think they were paid almost entirely in +goods. I think a number just take the goods out of the shops and +sell them again to get their food, and money for rents. I have +heard plenty of them say so. I know it was so when I was back +lately. I could not say the names of any persons just now. Mary +Ann Moodie was one. I never saw any of them selling their goods. +Our people were often offered tea or soft goods by parties who +lived by selling such [Page 427] articles got from knitters. I knew +that because they told us so. When they sell shawls or veils they +get so much, and they take a line for the balance, and get what they +want till it's done, and sometimes more than they want, and sell it +in order to get provisions. The women selling such goods would +not name the one they got them from, but just that some one had +got it for work, and had to part with a portion of it. I remember +these women perfectly well. There was Betty Morrison and Jean +Yates, who were in that custom for many years. They surely did a +great deal in that way. They did not get the price put on the goods +in the shop. I know that, because these women offered us 10d. tea +for 6d. I did not take it, because I was always knitting and getting +it for ourselves. I never heard of women bartering their goods for +provisions in the provision shops. I never heard of them selling or +bartering their goods to Robert Irvine or James Coutts. + + +EDINBURGH: MONDAY, APRIL 8, 1872. + +Present-MR GUTHRIE. + +GEORGE SINCLAIR SUTHERLAND, examined. + +16,661. This sitting was held for the purpose of examining Mr. +Methuen before he went to England, but I have received intimation +that he is forbidden by his medical adviser from undergoing any +examination on account of his health, and I understand you have +come here to speak, to some of the points on which I wished +information from him?-Yes; he asked me to attend for that +purpose. + +16,662. You have been for some years in Mr. Methuen's +service?-Yes; for eight years. + +16,663. In what capacity?-I had charge of looking over the +agreements and settling with fishermen for the first five or six +years; and I have since conducted the correspondence, and taken +the management of his business. + +16,664. Have you had the principal management of his business +during his absence in consequence of ill health?-I have, during +the last twelve months. + +16,665. Has Mr. Methuen the largest business as a fish-curer in +Scotland, both in curing herring and cod and ling?-Yes; +particularly in curing herring, and pretty extensively in the curing +of other kinds of fish. + +16,666. You don't say that he has the largest business in curing +cod and ling?-No, I would not say that. + +16,667. Has he stations on every part of the Scotch coast?-Yes, +all round the east and west coasts of Scotland; also in the north of +England, and at Yarmouth; and also at Howth in Ireland. + +16,668. I believe that at one time Mr. Methuen carried on business +in Shetland?-Yes. + +16,669. Where were his stations there?-They were near Lerwick, +at Cumlywick and Sandwick. + +16,670. Are these places about ten miles from Lerwick, near +Sandlodge?-I understand so. + +16,671. Do you know the reason why Mr. Methuen gave up +business in Shetland?-He gave up business there about six years +ago, in consequence of the proprietor, Mr. Bruce, taking over the +whole boats and crews into his own hands, in order to carry on the +business himself. + +16,672. Have you been in Shetland?-I have not. + +16,673. Had you any acquaintance from books or otherwise with +the way in which the business was conducted there?-I had very +little experience in the Shetland business at all. + +16,674. Who settled with the men in Shetland?-It was our +managers there. + +16,675. Are they in Mr. Methuen's service now?-They were not +regularly in his service. There was perhaps one man for one, and +another for another year; but the books are in Leith, and they were +always checked by one party there. The clerk who checked the +books in Leith is still in Mr. Methuen's service, and he could +speak with regard to the settlement with the Shetland crews. +16,676. Did he go down to Shetland for that purpose?-He did +not. He simply checked the books after they came here. + +16,677. Had Mr Methuen a shop for supplying his men with goods +in Shetland?-I am not aware that he had. + +16,678. I understand he does not keep shops for that purpose at +any of the stations?-No. + +16,679. Has he any stations in outlying remote places?-In the +Hebrides he has. + +16,680. In those places does he carry on business efficiently +without having any shop with which to supply his men?-Yes; +they can supply themselves with what they want. + +16,681. Where are those stations?-They are scattered all round +the Hebrides: in the Lewis Island, and down in the Southern +Hebrides, in the islands of Barra, Castleby, Vattersay, and the +Uists. + +16,682. Are the stations where the fish are delivered usually near +the houses of the fishermen, or have they to go some distance with +them?-The fishermen in the Southern Hebrides come round from +the east coast of Scotland and go to fish there, and they build +themselves huts in which they live while they are ashore. Our +coopers and women have houses or huts erected for them also on +which they live. They take out a supply of provisions with them, +which will perhaps last half the time. + +16,683. Who do that?-The women and coopers; and they are +always getting provisions back and forward when they are at the +fishing; because, in point of fact, in the southmost part of the +island of Barra and Castleby and Boisdale, there are no shops at +all. There is only one public-house in Loch Boisdale, but there are +no shops of any kind there. In the southmost island, Vattersay, is +uninhabited, and the men take out provisions and everything they +want with them, and they fish there during the six weeks of the +fishing. + +16,684. Where do they get their provisions?-They take them +with them from home, or they get them sent out to them from the +east coast. + +16,685. Do they purchase them themselves?-Yes. + +16,686. You have nothing to do with that?-No. In sending +coopers there we allow them extra wages-what are called board +wages-during the time they are there, being so much extra per +week for going to these places and supplying themselves. + +16,687. Is that the universal practice in the Lewis fisheries with +all the other fish-curers?-It is. They have coopers to whom they +allow so much extra when they are at that fishing. + +16,688. But do they follow the same practice with regard to their +fisheries?-The fishermen simply get the price per cran which is +agreed upon. They are not supplied with provisions at all. + +16,689. Is it not the case that there are curers in the Lewis who +have shops in Stornoway and other places?-In Stornoway they +have shops. + +16,690. Are these shops usually kept by the curers?-The curers +usually advance money to their fisheries; or if they are from home, +they give them a line to the merchant's shop with which they can +get any small provisions they require during the time they are out. + +[Page 428] + +16,691. But do the families of the resident fishermen get supplies +from the curers in Stornoway?-Yes; they usually give them a line +if they are in poor circumstances. + +16,692. Have you any West Highland fishermen in your +employment in the Hebrides?-A good many. Last year we had +altogether about 270 boats both from the east and west coast, +fishing in the Hebrides, at the west coast fishing. + +16,693. Did you find that the West Highland men and men resident +in the Hebrides were able to supply themselves with provisions in +the same way as the east coast men?-No. They are not the same +class at all, they are not in the same good circumstances as the east +coast men. We usually advance meal and money and materials +before they can go to the fishing at all. + +16,694. Do you give supplies of meal?-Yes, we usually give +them some. + +16,695. But I suppose that is merely for their own use during the +fishing?-Yes. There is a shop in Stornoway upon which we give +the men an order to get any meal they want; but, these men are of +the poorer class. + +16,696. Have you had any difficulty in getting fishermen in +consequence of the necessity they are under for getting advances, +and the habit they have got into of receiving advances from the +curers in Stornoway?-No; I cannot say that there ever was a short +supply of fishermen. At some shops the fishermen had fallen +behind in a bad season, and required some advances before they +could commence another season, and in that case the merchants +have given them the advance they required, and the men fished for +them, as it were, without a stated agreement. + +16,697. Is that the case everywhere, or are you speaking of a +particular locality?-I am speaking more particularly of the +northern and western coasts. The practice is quite different along +the Moray coast, where the men are in better circumstances, owing +to the fact that they have lately had a number of years of successful +fishings. + +16,698. What is the kind of agreement which you usually make +with your fishermen in the Hebrides?-The fishermen who are in +independent circumstances agree to a stated price per cran, while +the fishermen who require advances usually agree to what is called +the current rates given to debted boats. That is usually is to 1s. to +2s. under the free crews; 1s. below has been the usual custom. +These have been the general terms of debted boats. + +16,699. Is that exactly the same system as is followed at Wick?- +Yes; the same system prevails all round the north and west coasts. + +16,700. Is there a large proportion of the men in the Lewis fishery +who fish upon the terms you have last mentioned?-In some years +there are more than others. Of course, if they had had a successful +season, there would be fewer of them fishing on these terms next +season. + +16,701. Will there be one half of them, on the average, who +engage on these terms?-Yes; I should say there would be one +half of them on the west coast, but not on the east coast. + +16,702. In speaking of these men, do you refer to men who are the +owners themselves of the vessels in which they fish? I understand +that the vessels generally are owned by one or two men, and that +the rest are hired men?-That is the case on the east coast, but it is +not so on the west. There they usually share and share alike, and +probably four or five men have a boat between them, becoming +jointly liable. + +16,703. Then each man who has a share of a boat gets a share of +the fish which are taken by that boat?-That is usually the way. +The boat gets one share which goes to the skipper of the boat, +as they call him, and the rest of the men get equal shares. In the +herring fishing at Wick, the usual way is for one man to own the +boat and materials, and to agree so many hired men for the fishing. + +16,704. Do you think that a system of paying the men when they +deliver their fish would have the effect of keeping them from +getting so much into debt as they do now?-I think it would be +difficult to work such a system in the far north, or in the Western +Hebrides. We could not pay them on delivery there, so as to keep +them out of debt. It would certainly be an advantage for all parties +concerned if the fishermen would agree to be paid by a price on +delivery, as is done on the Fifeshire coast; but from the fact of +their being so heavily in debt, and so much encumbered in these +northern places, they require some advance before they are able to +go to the fishing at all; and it is only perhaps one half of the +fishermen who are in an independent position to make terms. + +16,705. You think such a system would be an advantage to you +because it would simplify your accounts?-Yes; and it would save +a great many debts. We reckon that probably 50 per cent. of the +amount due by those debted boats is lost to us altogether in our +books. + +16,706. In what way does that happen?-They run into debt, and +get so hopeless, that we have to mark them off as bad debts. + +16,707. Does that happen even in your case where you have no +shop?-Yes, even where we have no shop or anything of the kind; +because, when the fishermen get so hopelessly into debt they don't +care what they do, and very often they throw up the fishing +altogether and leave the debt. We have had thousands of pounds +knocked off in that way as bad debts. + +16,708. In what way were these debts incurred?-By advancing +the fishermen and trying to get them clear. + +16,709. Do you mean advancing them money?-Advancing them +money and materials, such as lines and hooks, and always trying +to get them to fish clear; but instead of that, some of them go so +much behind that their case becomes, quite hopeless. + +16,710. Are you speaking now of the boat-owners at Wick and the +sharesmen in the Lewis fishing?-Yes; there are a good many +debts incurred among them. + +16,711. Do these men have ledger accounts in your books, or is +there an account for each crew?-We have no individual accounts +with the partners. The account is usually headed, So and so and +crew, and the place where he belongs to. + +16,712. But if you kept a shop and supplied them with goods- +as you say the curers in Stornoway do who have shops-there +could then be individual accounts in your books?-The curers +in Stornoway have not got shops, but they usually give the +fishermen an order upon a particular shop where they can go +and get supplies. The fish-curers are not the owners of the shops +themselves. + +16,713. In Wick, I understand, a somewhat similar custom prevails +of giving orders upon shops?-Yes; the orders are given upon the +shops to get the fishermen supplied during the time of the fishing. + +16,714. Do you think it would be practicable to settle the accounts +at these shops at shorter intervals than at the end of the season?-I +think if it could possibly be done, it would be an advantage to both +parties; but there is a difficulty in the way, owing to many of the +men being in such a poor position. + +16,715. Is there not a difficulty in the men in the Lewis and at +Barra being so far from their homes, and so distant from banks?- +No. The men at Barra, who fish for five or six or seven weeks, +return to the east coast when their fishing is done, and they are +paid immediately for their fish. They get what money they require +there to pay each other, and when they come home they are all +settled with and paid off, so that they get their money immediately. + +16,716. Therefore there would be no advantage in paying them on +delivery of their fish?-None whatever. If they are paid at once at +the end of the fishing, it is all they need. + +16,717. At the Lewis would there not be an advantage in paying +the resident men week by week, so that they could have money +with which to supply themselves?-If that system were practicable +it might be an advantage. + +16,718. But even there in your business the settlement takes place +within two or three months?-Yes. In many [Page 429] cases it +takes place immediately after the fishing is over. + +16,719. And the fishing season, I understand, lasts from May to the +end of June?-Yes; or the beginning of July. It lasts for eight +weeks. + +16,720. Why is it not practicable to pay the men more +frequently?-On account of the circumstances the men are +in; and besides, a good many of them I know have great +objections to being paid by the price of the day. They always +wish to be engaged at a price to be paid at the end of the season. +They are afraid of the price rising and falling. One day it may be +high, and the next day it may be very low; so that they prefer a +stated price during the whole season, and then they are settled. + +16,721. Could you not fix that stated price at the beginning of the +season?-Not if we were to pay by the price of the day. If the +system pursued in Fife could be got to work in these northern and +western places, it would be a decided advantage to the fishermen +themselves if they agreed to it. + +16,722. Have you tried them?-I have often spoken to the +fishermen about that. I have been round there agreeing and +settling with the boats, and I have often mentioned the subject, +but they have always said that such a thing would not work there +at all. + +16,723. Do you know the system of settlement in Shetland with +the cod and ling fishermen?-Not from my own knowledge. + +16,724. The men there are engaged early in the spring, or even as +early as Martinmas, to fish for the following season. Some of +them are bound to do so without any agreement; but the +understanding is, that they are to get the current price at the end +of the season,-the season being from May until about 12th +August for the cod and ling fishing,-and the settlement does not +take place until November or December, and even later?-The +reason for that is, that in Shetland after the fishing is over it takes +two or three months until the fish are cured, so that they cannot +state a price to the men in Shetland until after the curing has been +completed. + +16,725. Are not the sales made in September or October?-Yes; +and they then arrange what the price is to be. + +16,726. But you say that the delay in settling there for the cod and +ling fishing arises from the way in which the current price is fixed +at the end of the season?-Yes; it is merely because the fish +cannot be cured within a month or so. + +16,727. And you cannot sell them and ascertain the price until +they are cured?-That is the usual way in which they do. They +ascertain the price at the end of the season when the fish are cured, +and they settle with the fishermen accordingly. + +16,728. From your experience of fishermen in different parts of +Scotland, do you think they are likely to be more prosperous when +they are paid by the price of the day than when they are paid upon +long settlements?-I think it would be a great advantage to +themselves, and also to the fish-curer, if they were to be paid by +the price of the day. + +16,729. Why would it be an advantage to the fishermen?- +Because they would get simply what is due to them, and the +fish-curer would not run any risk from the men getting into debt. +Along the Fifeshire coast the fishermen are not in debt to the +fish-curers, simply because they get a price per cran per day, and +don't require any advances. In the northern districts, on the +contrary, owing to the number of fishermen always getting new +boats and materials, they require advances to fit them out; and the +system of paying by the price of the day not being in force there, +they generally get heavily into debt, and many of them never come +out of it. + +16,730. Is it the case that on the coast of Fife, and in the eastern +district of Banff, the fishermen are not in debt to the curers at +all?-Yes; they are usually a better class of fishermen altogether +on the Fife and Buckie coasts. + +16,731. On the east coast do the men get supplies of lines and +boats from the fish-curers?-Very seldom. They are all in a pretty +good position; and two or three of them can take a boat between +them, and fish by the price of the day, so that they always know +what they are to have by the end of the week. They are all paid +once a week, or even oftener, and they scarcely ever get into debt. + +16,732. In Fifeshire, however, they have a fresh market to a +considerable extent?-Yes. + +16,733. Is it not owing to that that the system of frequent payments +has come into force there?-That may be the reason partly. There +are always a good many English buyers among the fishermen +there, and the men would not trust them, as it were, for more than +a day or two, because they are not thoroughly acquainted with +them; but in the case of fish-curers who are well known to the +men, they never think about settling until the end of the season. + +16,734. Is that the case even in Fifeshire?-Yes; but in some cases +with the local curers in Fife, the boats agree by a price per cran. + +16,735. Is there a large proportion of the boats so agreed?-Not +now. At Stonehaven, about one half of the boats fishing there are +agreed for the whole fishing. The others are engaged, as it were, +by the price of the day. + +16,736. Do these boats get an equal price for their green fish with +those who sell them on the nail?-Sometimes, if a heavy fishing +comes in, the men will only get a few shillings per cran for them; +and it is that uncertainty with regard to the price which they may +get that makes a great many of the northern fishermen agree by a +stated price throughout it whole season. + +16,737. Do these men who agree in that way get supplies or +advances throughout the course of the season?-They usually do +if they require them. + +16,738. Are these advances made in money or in goods?-In both. + +16,739. How do they get them in goods? Have the curers not +shops from which they supply them?-The curers have not got +shops, but they will give them an order. They become security to +the merchants, and give the men an order for what they may want, +the curer becoming responsible for it. + +16,740. Where cod and ling are sold to a curer in Shetland, for +instance, is there any reason why they should not be paid in cash +on the nail according to the price of the day? Assuming always +that the fishermen are willing to agree to that, is there any reason +in the nature of the business why that system should not be +followed there?-The nature of the business is such that the +fish-curers themselves cannot ascertain what price to give to the +fishermen until the end of the season, and the fishermen and the +fish-curers usually agree together that they are to get the current +price, that is the price which the fish-curer can afford to give them +at the end of the season, when he has once ascertained what it is. + +16,741. In that way the fishermen take part of the risk of the +market?-Yes. + +16,742. Is there any reason why the fishermen should not take that +risk, and be paid according to the market price of the day when he +delivers his fish?-None whatever. They could get a stated price +for every fish they catch. + +16,743. And that price might be higher or it might be lower?-It +might be; or they could agree to fish for so many weeks at a +certain price per fish overhead. + +16,744. They might agree at the commencement of the season to +fish for a stated price, or they might allow it to fluctuate from +week to week?-They might do either; or they might agree to be +settled with at the end of their six weeks' fishing, in a similar +manner to what they do at the herring fishing, when they settle +with the men immediately upon the fishing being done. + +16,745. Is there any reason why they should not actually receive +payment for their fish weekly or fortnightly, even in remote places +like Shetland where the distances are great?-There is no great +reason why they should not have an agreement of that sort because +it is [Page 430] practicable even in the West Highlands, and round +the Caithness and Buckie coasts. + +16,746. Have you to do so in many cases?-We have. This season +there has been an extraordinarily large cod fishing, and the boats +are agreed at 1s. to 1s. 3d. for cash, with a few pounds of bounty to +the fishermen. There are perhaps 8 or 10 curers in each place, and +each of them has perhaps 10 or 12 boats fishing to him. These +fishermen put in all their fish to their various curers, and they are +paid as soon as the fishing is done. They agree from December +until the middle or the end of March,-20th March is the date this +year,-and upon that date they get settled as soon as the fishing is +finished, and if they require any money during the fishing they get +it to account. + +16,747. Then the price is fixed at the beginning of the season?-It +is fixed before the men go to sea. + +16,748. And the settlement takes place at the end of the season?- +Yes; and the men get any money to account which they require, in +order to carry them through the season. That applies to Stornoway +and Gairloch, and all round the Caithness and Sutherland coasts, +and also to the Fifeshire and Buckie district for this very season. +These crews are made up of the local men, natives; they have +usually 6 or 7 men in a boat, and they share and share alike. + +16,749. I suppose they do require to have part of the price of their +fish advanced to them during winter, and before the general +settlement at the end of the season?-Some of them would, but +others would not. + +16,750. Do you know whether these fishermen have farms of their +own?-No; the fishermen on the east coast have no farms. They +live in fishing villages, like the village of Newhaven; but in +Gairloch and in Stornoway they usually have little crofts. + +16,751. Even with these men would it not be an advantage to settle +fortnightly? Would there be any practical difficulty in doing so if +the men wished it?-No; if they liked to take the risk. + +16,752. Would there be any risk?-There would be no risk if the +price was fixed at the commencement of the season; but if they +were to fish by the price of the day the men would not like it, +because in the case of a great fishing the price comes down almost +to nothing, and they are always afraid of that. + +16,753. When a great quantity of fish is taken the price falls +immediately, and that you say is the reason why they don't want +to fish at the price of the day?-Yes; they want a stated price, so +that they may know what they are to get, whether the fish are many +or few. + +16,754. On the other hand, they would have an advantage if they +got a larger price when there was a small fishing?-Yes; but they +won't take that risk. I have often spoken to the fishermen of these +districts, especially in Buckie, about that, and suggested that they +should take the price of the day, but they always liked to have their +agreement with the bounty. + +16,755. The bounty, I suppose, is intended to carry their families +through part of the season?-No; the bounty is an old custom. It +was granted by the Government to the fishermen round about +Shetland and in that quarter. A great many boats went there from +the south coast, and there usually was a bounty granted to them, I +think about 200 years ago; but that system ceased then, and the +fish-curers commenced to cure. + +16,756. Were they asked to continue the bounty?-Not to continue +it; but it was only during the last ten years round the Banffshire +coast that the practice was continued. In that district there was a +scarcity of boats, and the fish-curers got so numerous that they +gave a bounty of from £5, £10, £15, and up to £30, or even £40, to +any crew who would agree to them. + +16,757. Was that given as a kind of earnest?-Yes. + +16,758. I suppose all the fish delivered are entered by the agent or +factor of the curer in a fish-book at the time of delivery?-Yes; +they are all tallied and extended by him. + +16,759. Would it interfere with the business much for that man to +pay for the fish as he received them?-He could do it once a week +with ease. We could do it with reference to the haddock fishing all +round from the Wick coast into the Cromarty Firth, and round by +Fraserburgh. There are a great many parties fishing haddocks +there during the winter and spring, and we pay them weekly. +They are engaged by a price of so much per cwt., fixed at the +commencement of the season. + +16,760. Is that an extensive fishery?-It is pretty extensive. In +some years it is very successful. This year it has not been so +successful; but that is the nature of it. So soon as the fishermen +have ceased fishing for herring, the east coast crews go to the west +coast about 1st May, and return about the end of June or 1st July. +They commence to fish upon the east coast about the 1st of July, +and continue until 10th September. They then cease for perhaps +two or three weeks, when they commence to fish haddocks until +the month of December. They have then the cod fishing; and it +continues with cod, halibut, and all fresh fish, until the middle of +March, and from the middle of March until the 1st of May, there is +comparatively nothing done. There is no engagement during that +time. + +16,761. Is it the same kind of boats that are employed in all these +different kinds of fishing?-No; the fishermen have different kinds +of boats to suit the different kinds of fishing. In the herring season +the owners have hired men in their boats, and each man has his +skipper; whereas in the winter fishing five or six or seven of these +men go together and fish for themselves. + +16,762. But that is still in the same kind of boat is it not?-The +half-decked boat is used at Wick; but, in fact, they have boats to +suit each fishing that they wish to go to. They usually use the large +herring boat for the cod fishing, and a smaller boat for the haddock +fishing. + +16,763. What is the size of a haddock boat?-I think it is about 26 +or 30 feet keel, and open. There is now usually it small deck on it. +The large herring boat is from 36 to 42 feet keel; but the boats +have increased greatly in size within the last eight or ten years. + +16,764. Do you find that as the boats increase in size the fisherman +is generally more successful?-Yes. They have the advantage of +going a greater distance to sea and staying longer out when their +boats are decked, and they return with heavier takes. + +16,765. Are you acquainted, from your own experience, with the +character of the boats which are used?-Yes. I have gone out to +sea and seen how the fishing was carried on. + +16,766. Would you consider that a fishing community was at great +disadvantage, as compared with other communities, who used only +open six-oared boats of about 21 or 22 feet keel?-They would be +at a decided disadvantage. + +16,767. Perhaps you are aware that that is the case in Shetland, and +that in the haaf fishing they go out twenty or thirty miles to sea, +and remain out only for it single night at a time?-If they had the +large lugger boats which we have on this coast, they could stay out +for several nights, having provisions with them and room for their +fish. + +16,768. Are the large boats you refer to equally available for laying +long lines in very deep water and on a rocky bottom?-I cannot +say that. There would be more danger with them. They could not +work large boats so easily as they could work the small ones. + +16,769. What is the depth of water in which your large boats +generally fish?-I can hardly say; but when they go out to the +banks, thirty or forty miles off, they may fish in thirty or forty +fathoms of water in the Moray Firth. + +16,770. Perhaps your knowledge of the fishing does not enable you +to give much information about that?-No, not practically; but I +have gone out three or four times in the season. + +16,771. Do you know any district in Scotland or in England where +the settlement with the fishermen takes place only once it year as +it does in Shetland?-I understand there are two fishings in +Shetland: the herring fishing, and the cod and ling fishing. + +[Page 431] + +16,772. It is the cod fishing I am speaking of. Do you know any +place except Shetland where the settlement for any kind of fishing +takes place only once a year?-I scarcely know how to answer that +question. + +16,773. In Shetland the cod and ling fishing is the only one in +which they fish for the curers,-leaving the herring fishing out +of account,-and they are paid for that only once a year, a +considerable time after the end of the fishing. Do you know any of +the fishing contracts in the kingdom which are settled at so long a +period after the fishing is over?-In Orkney the fishermen are +settled with for the herring fishing of August at the end of October. +That fishing ends in the middle of September, and they are not +settled with before the end of October. + +16,774. But is it not the case that, in almost all the cases with +which you are acquainted, there is a short season of from five to +six weeks, or two to three months, and a settlement takes place at +the end of it?-Yes, the final settlement takes place at the end; but +at the beginning of the herring fishing the men get an advance. As +soon as the fishing is done they get some money to clear off their +current expenses, and to pay their hired men; and then about +October or November they get a final settlement, when the +season's transactions are settled for. + +16,775. That is for the herring fishing which commences when?- +It commences on 20th July, and that is their great fishing. + +16,776. Then there is the Lewis herring fishing, to which a great +number of the same men who fish at Wick go?-Yes. + +16,777. Is that settled before the herring fishing at Wick begins +again?-Yes; it is settled as soon as it is finished. + +16,778. Then, if any of these herring fishermen go to the cod and +ling fishing in winter, that is settled for the end of that fishing +too?-Yes. + +16,779. Some of them may perhaps go to the haddock fishing in +spring again, and that is settled weekly?-Yes. The haddock +fishing is usually settled weekly. + +16,780. On the Moray Firth that makes up the whole fishing +seasons of the year?-It does. + +16,781. And each of these is settled at its close?-Yes. + +16,782. So that they will have four settlements in the course of the +year?-Yes; four settlements for the various fishings. With regard +to the men who go round to the Stornoway fishing, it would +scarcely be practicable to settle with them weekly, or before they +return home, because of their distance from home and the peculiar +nature of the business. The amount actually due to them could not +be rightly ascertained until they came home, and all their accounts +had been made up and settled. + +16,783. Why is that?-Because, from the nature of our business, +there are so many places where we give the fishermen the option +to run into with their fish, and we would require all the books from +these places to be handed over to us and checked, before we could +proceed to settle with them. + +16,784. Might these fish not be settled for at the station on +delivery?-We could settle for them at the station on delivery; +but we find so many mistakes occurring afterwards, that unless +the books were first checked before the fishermen were paid, we +would be apt to lose a good deal. + +16,785. How do these mistakes arise?-Because the fishermen +may have delivered so many crans of herrings at a different place, +where they could not get them entered, and there are so many +fishermen of the same name, that one is often confounded with +another, unless they are known to the parties, or have 'T' names +attached to them, which are a sort of nickname. But the fishermen +are quite well pleased when they get their settlement as soon as the +fishing is done. It is only along the Fifeshire coast, and about +Stonehaven and Aberdeen, that any of the crews during the great +summer fishing for herrings are agreed, or deliver their fish by the +price of the day, or sell their fish daily. + +16,786. Do you know of any other place in the kingdom, except +Shetland, where the men have a final settlement only once a year +for all the work of the year, whether cod, or ling, or herring, or +whatever it may be?-No. The same system does not prevail in +any part of the kingdom except Shetland. + +16,787. Do you know any other part of the kingdom where the +curers universally keep shops to supply their fishermen with meal +and soft goods?-No. There may be an instance or two of that +kind round the coast, but I may say that I am not aware of any. + +16,788. Do you know whether it is a fact that at Wick the men are +to a large extent in debt to the curers?-A great many of them are +in debt, but there are a great many independent men who are not in +debt. + +16,789. I understand the men at Wick are divided into two classes: +free men and unfree men?-Yes. + +16,790. The unfree men have to fish to the curers to whom they +owe money on general terms?-Yes; on the general terms of +debted boats, and they are settled with by the curer at the end of +the season. That is somewhat similar to the custom in Shetland. +The fishcurers at the end of the season find the price per cran after +they have ascertained the state of the markets, that is, during the +month of October, and then pay the unfree men the price, which is +usually 1s. per cran less than what is paid to the free boats. That +difference is made as a sort of guarantee or security for the risk +which they run in advancing boats and nets. + +16,791. Is the debt incurred by the fishermen to the curer entirely +for boats and nets supplied by the curer?-Yes; and for advances +in money. + +16,792. Are these advances in money made to a man to enable him +to pay his hired men, and so on?-Yes. The fish-curer has a great +deal of risk to run in fitting out a debted boat, because he usually +becomes security for the hired men's wages; and if he does so he +will require to pay them whether they make a good fishing or not. + +16,793. What are the wages of the hired men?-They usually +range from £6 to £10 along the northern coast. + +16,794. What is the cost of a boat at Wick?-A new boat at Wick +would cost about £120 or £130. + +16,795. Does the curer frequently advance that?-He usually +advances one half of it. It is not often that any fish-curer would +give a boat to any fisherman who had not any means of his own. + +16,796. They expect a fisherman to whom they supply a boat to +have some capital equal at least to the cost of one half a boat?- +Yes. + +16,797. What is the cost of a drift of nets at Wick?-They usually +have 40 nets there now, and the cost of a net is about £3, so that a +boat and nets would cost about £250 altogether. + +16,798. All that expense lies upon the herring fishing alone?- +Yes. + +16,799. The man, if he is a free man, can use his boat for any of +the other fishings except the herring fishing?-Yes. They usually +engage also for the Lewis fishing, but not to the same fish-curer. +In that fishing he may engage to anybody he likes; but in the +herring fishing he must engage to the man who has advanced him +his boat and lines. + +16,800. Would you say that two-thirds of the men at Wick are +unfree men?-No. I don't think there are above one third of the +men at Wick who are indebted men. I know every one of them +personally, from settling with them, and I have a good knowledge +of their circumstances. + +16,801. Would you be surprised to hear that an extensive curer in +Wick estimated the number of free men at nearly one third, and +that the unfree men were two thirds?-I would be surprised at that; +because I know that of the number of fishermen who own boats +not above one third of them are in debt. It may happen that after a +bad fishing many of these men may get a little behind, but after a +successful fishing there are not more than one third or one fourth +of them who are in debt. + +16,802. Are you speaking now only of the boat-owners?-Yes. + +[Page 432] + +16,803. Does a man remain bound to fish on general terms even +when his debt is reduced to a low sum, such as £20 or £30?-He is +not bound to do it, because he can find another fish-curer who will +give him that advance to enable him to pay off his old curer. + +16,804. But then he would be unfree and bound to fish to this new +creditor?-The other fish-curer usually gives him the current price +of free boats, if the man is considered a good man, when the debt +comes as low as that. + +16,805. Is there any line where you say that a man becomes free? +Do you consider him to be so when his debt is reduced to £50?- +When it is under £30, I think the man is considered to be a good +man. + +16,806. Do you know any district, except in Shetland, where the +men are bound to fish for the landlord from whom they hold their +ground?-Along certain estates on the Moray coast there are +certain villages to which a great many fishermen belong, and I +think there is sort of feudal system of the same kind there. There +are villages on the estate of Sarklet, near Wick, and at Clyth, and +other places, where many of the fishermen have had it in their +option to leave the place altogether, and they have usually come +down to Wick and been dealt with there as free men. If they +fished in the village where they lived before, they had usually to +fish to the fish-curer who had obtained the station at groundrent +from the proprietor. It was to the advantage of the proprietor to +have the fishermen fishing for that curer, so long as they remained +on his estate. In these places the price usually ranges 1s. per cran +below the town price. + +16,807. Is that because the men hold yearly tacks?-They hold +crofts year by year, and they are fishermen at the same time. + +16,808. Do you know whether they pay their rent to the landlord +direct, or through the fish-curer?-They pay it twice a year, at +Candlemas and Martinmas, to the landlord; but they are not in the +same way bound as the Shetland fishermen are. They are not in +the same state of bondage. + +16,809. Wherein do you think is the difference?-They are free to +leave the place when they like, and they may go down to the town +and fish; but they might incur the proprietor's displeasure if they +were to go away and leave the place altogether if their crofts were +under lease. + +16,810. Are these the only cases of the kind which you know?- +They are; and they are very small in extent. + +16,811. Do you know any districts where it is frequently the case +that a fisherman does not receive any money at all in payment +for his fish, but runs an account for goods which is more than +sufficient to balance the money due for the fish?-There may +be a stray case of that kind, but it is not common. Where the +fishermen are so negligent that they are hopelessly sunk in debt, +the fish-curer, of course, tries to give them as little advance as +possible, and to get them to fish as much as possible, in order that +they may get out of debt; but in some cases where they make a +poor fishing and have been heavily in debt he cannot give them +any advance in money, but he may give them an advance in goods. + +16,812. Is that a common thing in your experience?-It is not. + +16,813. In what districts would you say it was most common?- +Along the Caithness coast. + +16,814. Can you furnish me from your books with a note of the +price cod, ling, and tusk in September, for the last ten or fifteen +years?-Yes. We usually buy from the Shetland fish-curers during +the month of August. Between May and August we often ask +quotations from them for a quantity of fish to be delivered either in +Ireland or in Leith in September or October, and they usually send +on the quotation in September. We have bought largely in that +way during the last ten years, so that I can furnish a list of the +prices. + +16,815. Do you supply hooks and lines to your fishermen?-There +is a little of that done to the Gairloch and west coast fishermen, +because there are no places there from which they can supply +themselves. We buy the materials in Glasgow, and send them on +to the men, and allow them to lie at the debit of the crew's account +until they are able to pay for them. The only thing we supply +usually is cutch to fishermen. + +<Adjourned>. + + +EDINBURGH: THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 1872 + +<Present>-MR GUTHRIE. + +JAMES LEWIS, examined. + +16,816. What are you?-I am a grocer and wine merchant in +Canongate, Edinburgh. I have other two places of business +besides that. + +16,817. Have you carried on an extensive business in +Edinburgh?-I have, for nearly forty years. + +16,818. You have examined some samples which I sent to you, +and given me a report of the values you put upon them?-Yes. + +16,819. Is it a correct report?-It is.* + +16,820. You examined a small parcel of oatmeal, No. 1 in the +report, which you value at 1s. per 7 lbs.: how much is that per +boll?-There is 140 lbs. in the boll, so that it would be exactly +20s. per boll. At the time I made the valuation that was a fair +average price for it in Edinburgh. + +16,821. Was it a good quality of meal?-It was not; not so good as +some samples which I have frequently seen. I could not sell it in +my premises, for instance. + +16,822. Would it be considered inferior quality in Canongate?- +Yes. + +16,823. Could you not sell it at all?-Perhaps I could sell it; but I +should not like to trust selling it to my customers, as they might +not like to come back again. + +16,824. Is it above or below the average quality of meal that is sold +in country districts?-I think that in Shetland it will perhaps be +about the average quality sold there, as it has likely been made +from oats grown in [Page 433] that country; but it is not like meal +made from oats grown in Midlothian. + +16,825. Do you know that from any knowledge which you have of +Shetland trade?-I don't know anything about it, further than from +seeing the quality of the meal which was submitted to me; and +comparing it with what could be made in Midlothian, I should say +that it was inferior in quality to anything that would be sold as +good meal here. + +16,826. Perhaps you do not know much about the business which +is carried on in country districts?-I cannot say that I have carried +it on, but I know a good deal about it. + +16,827. Have you examined any samples of meal from districts +similar to Shetland?-I have had meal from Aberdeenshire and +from Caithness. + +16,828. Was this meal which you examined inferior to the average +quality of Caithness meal?-It was. + +16,829. Was it much inferior?-I could not exactly say that, but it +was inferior. + +16,830. The sample of tea, No. 2, submitted to you, you have +valued at 2s. 4d. per lb.; and you state at the end of your report, +that of course an allowance must be made for carriage, etc. to +Shetland?-Yes. Of course, tea must be sent to Shetland; they +must get it either from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or London. + +16,831. Is the value of 2s. 4d., which you have put upon it, what +you consider the retail price of that tea would be in Edinburgh?- +Yes. + +16,832. Would it be reasonable to charge a much higher price than +that, in respect of the carriage to Shetland?-I think about 1s. per +cwt., or from that to 2s. at the outside, would be the expense of +carriage to Shetland. + +16,833. That would make a very slight rise upon the price per +lb.?-It would be a mere trifle; because there would be about 84 +to 90 lbs. in a chest, and they could get that sent down for 1s. + +16,834. Would you consider 2s. 10d. an extravagant charge for that +in Shetland?-I would; because the value of 2s. 4d. which I put +upon it includes the profit of the merchant here. + +16,835. Would 2s. 10d. be an extravagant charge for it in Shetland, +even as a credit price?-Yes; it would be so anywhere. + +16,836. The tea No. 3 you also value at 2s. 4d. per lb.: is there any +difference between these two teas?-So far as I could see, I think +they are very like the same value. There is a little difference +between the style of the two teas, but nothing to affect the actual +value of them. + +16,837. Could you account for one of them being sold at 81/2d. per +qr. and the other at 7d. per qr. lb.?-No; unless the party may have +bought the one too dear. The merchant must have his profit in any +case; but if he is not a judge of what he is buying, the wholesale +merchant will get a larger profit out of him than another. + +16,838. Would you be surprised to be informed that these teas +were sold at these different prices?-I could not be done in that +way. + +16,839. But you suppose the Shetland retail merchants may be +done in that way?-They may be ignorant of their business, for +anything I know. There are a great many small people in the +country who carry on such a business as selling tea and who know +very little about it. + +16,840. Still you think the teas are of the same quality, although +one of them was sold at 2s. 4d. and the other at 2s. 10d. per lb.?- +So far as I can judge, they are of the same quality; but I could +easily suppose there would be a difference of 6d. per lb. in the way +I have mentioned. + +16,841. From a mistake on the part of the retailer?-Yes; or from +his ignorance of his business and the wholesale dealer taking +advantage of that. + +16,842. Might he not have purchased the No. 3 tea as a bargain, +and given his customers the advantage of that?-He might have +done that; but it is not likely a Shetland man would do that. + +16,843. The sample No. 4 was a specimen of sugar which you +value at 41/2d. per lb.: was that a fair quality of sugar?-Yes; a +very fair quality of sugar at that price. + +16,844. Would 6d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it?-It would +be so here. + +16,845. Would you consider it an extravagant price in a country +district also?-I think it would be. I think 5d. would be about the +value of that sugar in Shetland; it would not be more. + +16,846. No. 5 is a sample of tea also which you value at 2s. 6d. per +lb.?-Yes; it is better than the others. + +16,847. Would 2s. 10d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it in +Shetland?-I think it might sell there for 2s. 10d., or even 3s. I +consider it to be a very good tea. + +16,848. You value it at 2s. 6d?-Yes, here; but I think 2s. 10d. +would be a fair value for it in Shetland. + +16,849. You allow a greater advance upon that tea as sold in +Shetland than you did upon the others?-Yes. The higher the +price of the tea is, generally speaking, there is a larger profit upon +it. + +16,850. Do you think a merchant would be fairly entitled to take a +larger profit upon No. 5 than upon No. 2?-Yes; a little. + +16,851. Then 2s. 10d. would not be a very extravagant charge for +it?-I don't think it. + +16,852. No. 6 is a sample of sugar which you value at 41/2d. per lb.: +was that of the same quality as the other sugar?-There was very +little difference between them. + +16,853. Would that be fairly charged at 5d. per lb.?-I think it +would sell for about the same as the other. + +16,854. No. 7 is a sample of tobacco which you value at 1s. per +lb.?-Yes; that is the retail price. I cannot say that I am a great +judge of tobacco; but that is the retail price in Edinburgh for +something like the same quality. + +16,855. That is 3d. per oz.: would you consider 4d. per oz. an +overcharge for it in a country district?-Yes, I think it would be +1d. of an overcharge. They buy it for about 3s. 4d. per lb., and I +consider that 8d. upon a pound of tobacco is a very fair profit. + +16,856. No. 8 is also a sample of tobacco which you value at 4s. +per lb.: was it of the same quality?-So far as I am able to judge +it was. + +16,857. No. 9 was a sample of tea which you value at 3s. per lb.: +would 1s. 1d. per qr. lb. be too much to charge for it?-It would be +too much to charge for any of the teas that were submitted to me. + +16,858. Was this the best of the teas?-I thought so. + +16,859. Was it considerably superior to the others?-I thought so; +but 4s. 4d. would be far too much to charge for it. + +16,860. No. 10 is a sample of loaf sugar which you value at 6d.: +would 8d. per lb. be too much for it?-It would be too large a +price to charge for it. + +16,861. Even in Shetland?-I think so. + +16,862. You have stated in your report that the sample of flour, +No. 11, was not fit for use?-I considered so. + +16,863. Do you think that arises from it having been kept too long +after being got from the shop?-No, I don't think it is flour at all. +It seems to be a sort of mixture that I would not like to give to a +pig. + +16,864. I now show you the sample No. 11 again: is that [showing] +the flour you refer to?-Yes. + +16,865. You don't think it is fit for use at all?-I do not; at least I +don't think it would do in Edinburgh. + +16,866. What is it?-My opinion is, that there is good deal of +barley-meal in it, not flour at all. + +16,867. Then, if that is the case, it would in your opinion be +overcharged at 2d. per lb.?-Yes. That would be 14d. per peck +of 7 lbs., or 46s. per bag, which is about the price of the best flour +just now. + +16,868. What was it in December or January last?-It was cheaper +than it is now. + +16,869. Then you think that 2d. per lb. would have been an absurd +charge for that flour at that time?-Perfectly absurd. + +[Page 434] + +16,870. No. 12 is a sample of rice which you have valued at 21/2d. +per lb.: was that rice of good quality?-Yes; it was of fairish +quality. + +16,871. Would 31/2d. be too much for it?-It would be more than +could be got for it here. + +16,872. Would it be extravagant to charge that price for it in an +outlying country district?-I think it would. I think 3d. would be +the outside that could be got for it. + +16,873. Are you aware that the expense of carriage to some +of these places must be pretty high?-They have direct +communication to Lerwick twice a week, which, as I said +before, cannot exceed 2s. per cwt., and that would be about +1/4d. per lb. + +16,874. Supposing it had to be conveyed thirty miles from +Lerwick, that of course would increase the expense?-Of course +it would add to the expense; but I have been speaking of the +direct communication between Edinburgh and Lerwick. + +16,875. No. 13 is a sample of soap, which you value at 4d. per lb.: +was that a good quality of soap?-It was middling; but it was in +such a state from being dried up, that one could scarcely judge of +it. However, I think that would be about its value. + +16,876. Had it been injured by being kept?-It gets dry and hard +from the moisture getting out of it. If I had seen it cut from the +bar, I might have come nearer a proper judgement of it. + +16,877. Do you think 6d. per lb. would be too high for it?- +Decidedly; either for it or any kind of soap. + +16,878. You think that even although you had seen it cut from +the bar you could not have put so high a value as that upon it?-I +could not. + +16,879. Can you say generally with regard to the samples, that any +of them were deteriorated by having been kept for some time after +leaving the shop?-I do not think they had been much affected. +The sugar may have changed its character a little by being dry, and +also the soap; but I don't think any of the other articles could be +much deteriorated in value by that. + +16,880. Would you make any allowance in your estimate of their +value on that account?-No; I just valued them as I saw them, +according to the best of my judgement. + +16,881. Do you think it would be fair to make any such +allowance?-No, I don't think it would be necessary. + +16,882. Is it usual to charge a higher price for such goods in +country districts than in the town?-Generally it is the case +that a rather higher price is charged. There is less competition +in business, and there can be no doubt that in a country district +you pay more for articles than in town. + +16,883. But, on the other hand, rents are lower in the country than +in the town?-No doubt they are; but the amount of business is +usually much less. + +16,884. Making full allowance for that, however, do you think that +certain of the articles which have been submitted to you have been +overcharged?-I think the whole of them have been. There is one +thing I may mention, which is, that looking back fifty years ago +they had then no direct communication between Shetland and the +large towns in the country, and the merchants there were longer in +being paid for what they sent south; but now they are paid within +ten days of the time when they send their goods to Edinburgh or +Glasgow or Newcastle, or wherever it is, and that makes a very +considerable difference to these merchants. + +16,885. What goods do you refer to?-Any kind of goods that the +islands furnish. If the merchants send eggs, butter, bacon, or +anything of that kind, to people in Edinburgh or Glasgow, they get +a remittance in cash within ten days for the amount of the goods +sent. Formerly that could not be the case, because they had to wait +perhaps for a sailing vessel once a month, or something like that; +and that makes a great difference to the people in Shetland. + +16,886. Do you receive large consignments of eggs and butter +from Shetland?-I get large consignments from Caithness, but not +from Shetland. + +16,887. But you know that the practice with Shetland is to remit +back at once for that?-Yes, at once. + +*Mr. Lewis's report stated the following as his valuation of the +different samples submitted to him:- + No. 1 Oatmeal, per 7 lbs. £0 1 0 + No. 2. Tea, per lb., 0 2 4 + No. 3. Tea, do., 0 2 4 + No. 4. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2 + No. 5. Tea, do., 0 2 6 + No. 6. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2 + No. 7. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0 + No. 8. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0 + No. 9. Tea, do., 0 3 0 + No. 10. Loaf Sugar, do., 0 0 6 + No. 11. Flour, not fit for use. + No. 12. Rice, per lb., 0 0 21/2 + No. 13. Soap, do., 0 0 4 + +The samples Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4 were those purchased at Mossbank +by the witness A.T. Jamieson, 7954; Nos. 5 and 6 were samples +obtained by the Commissioner personally, at Messrs. Spence & +Co. at Uyea Sound; No. 7 was obtained at the shop at Grutness; +No. 8 from the shop of Mr. Gavin Henderson, Scousborough; and +Nos. 9 to 13 were produced by the witness Charlotte Johnston, as +having been purchased at the shop of Mr. Morgan Laurenson, +Lochend. + + +Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, MAGNUS MOWAT, examined. + +16,888. Are you a boat-builder in Newhaven?-I am. + +16,889. Do you do a large business there in building boats for +fishermen?-Yes, I do a pretty large business. + +16,890. Do you know the style of boat that is built in Shetland?- +Yes. I have seen one or more of them at Wick, when I was there at +the herring fishing. + +16,891. You mean the six-oared boat of about 21 or 22 feet +keel?-Yes. I have seen one at least of those dimensions. + +16,892. Do you build boats of that kind yourself?-No. Our boats +are much superior to the boats there. + +16,893. Can you say at what price you could build a of 22 feet keel +in the style of the Shetland boat?-I could hardly say. + +16,894. What do you get for a boat of that size, such as you are in +the habit of building?-£22, 10s. That is just for the shell of the +boat, with the ironwork attached to it. The men have the masts, +sails, and oars to supply on their own responsibility. + +16,895. How much would the mast and ropes and other fittings +cost, including the sail?-I don't know what quantity of ropes they +would require, but with the yawls which are used in fishing in the +Firth of Forth, it generally costs about £1, 10s. to fit them with +mast and oars, and the necessary spar, without the sail. The sail, I +think, would cost about £4. + +16,896. You have seen a Shetland boat: have you any idea whether +such a boat as is used there would cost more or less than a boat +such as you have been speaking of?-The Shetland boats of the +same size would not be half the value of our boats here. + +16,897. Why?-Because the timber is inferior, and they are +lighter. I might have 24 timbers in a side, when they would +only have 10 or 12. + +16,898. Are your boats built in the same style as the Shetland +boats? Are they clinker-built?-Yes; but I don't suppose they +use the same materials. I think it is Norwegian timber they use; +and if that is so, the cost of them would be considerably less. + +16,899. About how much less would it be?-I cannot calculate +that exactly, because wages there are less than they are here. + +16,900. What would be the difference in the cost of the timber? +Would it be so much as one half?-No. Larch is about 14s. per +100 feet of planking, and the timber they use would be from 8s. to +10s. + +16,901. I suppose boat-builders' wages are considerably less in +Shetland and Caithness than here?-Yes; they are from 6s. to 8s. +a week less, at any rate. I pay 24s. here, and I should think that +16s. would be about their figure there. + +16,902. How long will one of your boats last?-From seventeen to +twenty years. + +16,903. Is that the ordinary calculation as to the life of a boat?-It +depends a great deal upon the kind of work they are put to. In +some cases they do not last so long; but if they are preserved from +accident, they may last for that time. + +16,904. Will a Shetland boat, such as you have seen, last its long +as that?-It will not last so long, according to my judgement. + +16,905. Suppose it were used only for three or four months in the +summer, would it last longer than it would do if it were more +used?-Certainly it would. + +16,906. But you think it would not last so long in any case its +seventeen or eighteen years?-No. The frame is much weaker: +there are fewer ribs in it than in our boats; because, while in a +Shetland boat there might be a rib every 2 or 3 feet, I might have +them 10 or 12 [Page 435] inches apart, and of course the ribs are +the strength of the boat. + +16,907. Would twelve or fourteen years be the outside of the life +of a Shetland boat?-I would suppose that would be about as long +as they could run them with safety. + +16,908. About how much do you think it takes to keep up a boat of +that size?-1s. a day during the time she is at work would keep her +up amply. + +16,909. Suppose she were at work for 100 days in the year, that +would be £5. Do you mean to say that for every year a boat is +at work she will require £5 for repairs to keep her up?-The +Newhaven fishermen allow that for their 25 feet yawls. A sail is +not supposed to last above five years, or not more than three years +without repairs; and then they have the chance of breaking oars, or +any other accident that may occur. The allowance of 1s. a day +may be it little too much to cover all that; but there is an eighth +share allowed for the repairs of a boat in the case of the large +decked boats. + +16,910. Are these the new boats which you have now got at +Newhaven?-No, they are the boats which were built in Caithness +nine or ten years ago. There is an eighth or a ninth share allowed +to the owner to keep them up. + +16,911. Is that a ninth share of the fish taken?-Yes, or of the +money; but these Caithness boats are much dearer in price and +of better value than the Shetland boats. + +16,912. From whom do you generally take your orders for building +boats? Is it from the fishermen or from the curers?-From the +fishermen altogether. I built one for Westray, in Orkney, last year, +and I also built a little one that went to Stromness. + +16,913. Were these open boats or half-decked?-They were small +boats of about 18 feet keel. The one that went to Westray, I built +her for £14, because she was so light. + +16,914. Do you think that £20 would be about the cost of one of +the Shetland six-oared boats ready for sea?-I would think they +were not too dear at that, if the sail and everything was provided. + +16,915. Do you know anything about the practice of hiring boats +to fishermen on any part of the coast?-Yes. I was twelve years at +the herring fishing at Wick, and I knew about it there. + +16,916. But the boats you had there were of a different class?- +Yes, they were far better boats than the Shetland boats. I had a +boat myself that cost me £94. + +16,917. Are you able to say what would be a fair hire to charge for +one of the Shetland six-oared boats?-No; it depends altogether on +the material of which the boat is made. If I had seen the boat, I +could at once have given an opinion. + +16,918. Suppose a fisherman was hiring one of the boats such +as you have seen for a season, that is, for about 31/2 months in +summer, what would be a fair rate of hire to pay, supposing the +boat had cost £20?-The boat would require about one half of a +man's share, whatever was the income, unless they made a bargain +for so many pounds for the three months, or the two months, or +whatever period was fixed. + +16,919. Would £2, 10s. be an extravagant hire for that period?-I +don't think it would. + + +Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, DONALD DAVIDSON, examined. + +16,920. What are you?-I am a fish-curer in Burntisland. + +16,921 Were you for a long time in the employment of Mr. +Methuen?-Yes. + +16,922. Have you again gone into his employment?-Yes. + +16,923. Are you acquainted with the system of agreements +between the fish-merchants and fishermen throughout all the +Scotch fishings, both on the east and west coast?-Yes; I have +had a good deal of experience of them. + +16,924. Had you anything to do with Mr. Methuen's fishing +transactions in Shetland?-Not particularly. I occasionally sent +stock there when ordered, such as empty barrels and salt to supply +the stations. + +16,925. How long is it since these stations were given up?-About +two years ago, I think. + +16,926. Do you refer to the stations in the Sandwick district?- +Yes. + +16,927. Had Mr. Methuen any shop there?-No. + +16,928. Do you know how the fishermen there got their supplies +during the fishing season?-I understand that a party who held the +land where the fishermen resided agreed for the boats with the +proprietor, and paid the proprietor at the end of the season, and +then the proprietor settled with the men. If they required any +goods during the fishing season, I think they got a line from the +proprietor to go to the shops in Lerwick or Scalloway for them. + +16,929. But I thought it was Mr. Methuen who agreed the boats?- +I think that most of the boats that he had were agreed in that way. + +16,930. Had he an agent in Shetland?-Yes. The men who fished +for him belonged to a certain district, and the proprietor of that +district had a control over the boats, and it was him who arranged +with Mr. Methuen. + +16,931. Do you know whether Mr. Methuen's agent there was in +the habit of giving lines to the fishermen to enable them to get +supplies from the shops in Lerwick?-I am not aware of that. + +16,932. I thought that was what you said?-No; it was the +proprietor of the land in the district where Mr. Methuen had +the fishing station that gave the lines to the fishermen. + +16,933. Was that Mr. Bruce of Sandlodge?-Yes. + +16,934. Were Mr. Methuen's arrangements to get these boats to +deliver their fish to him all made with the proprietor?-Yes. + +16,935. Then he had no direct agreement with the fishermen?-I +understand not. + +16,936. Have you any personal knowledge about that?-The +information I received was from the men who had charge there +for Mr. Methuen. + +16,937. Are any of these men now in Edinburgh?-I don't think +they are. + +16,938. Do you know whether Mr. Methuen was in the habit of +making payments to the fishermen during the fishing season, or +whether all his payments to the fishermen were made at the end +of the season?-I understand that if any advance was given to the +men, it was given through the proprietor, Mr. Bruce. + +16,939. What is the nature of the contract entered into with the +men employed in the cod and ling fishing in Lewis and the western +islands?-The boats are agreed at a certain time, sometimes in +March, to commence to fish about 20th May, and they get so much +per cran and so much of bounty. + +16,940. Have you made such contracts yourself, both on your own +and on Mr. Methuen's account?-Yes; but principally for Mr. +Methuen. + +16,941. Do the men receive the bounty at the commencement, or +before the commencement of the season?-The way in which it is +done is this: the fish-curer and the fishermen make the contract in +March, and then the men generally get the bounty a fortnight or a +month after the time of agreeing, or at all events they generally get +it before they commence to fish. + +16,942. What is the purpose of giving the bounty?-I suppose +there is no particular reason for it. I understand some curers +like to give it in order to procure the best boats, and to be an +inducement to the men to contract with them. + +16,943. Is the price per cran invariably fixed before the beginning +of the season?-If the boats are agreed, as they generally are on +the Moray Firth- + +16,944. But I am speaking of the Lewis fishery alone. You +mentioned about a price per cran, which I suppose applies only +to the herring fishing, while I was asking you about the cod +and ling fishing?-I don't know [Page 436] much about the +arrangements with the cod and ling fishermen; but I understand +they get it certain amount per cwt. or per dozen of fish. + +16,945. I thought you said you had made arrangements with the +Lewis and West Highland fishermen?-Not for the cod and ling +fishing. I have made arrangements with them for the herring +fishing; but I understand the bargains are made on the same +principle. + +16,946. Have you made bargains for the herring fishing at the +Lewis?-Yes. I have agreed boats at the Lewis for Mr. Methuen. + +16,947. Were these boats belonging to the Lewis, and were the +fishermen living there?-Yes; both the fishermen and the boats +belonged to the Lewis. + +16,948. In that case, when did the settlement take place?-I was +there two seasons, and I settled with them generally at the end of +the season-in the end of June. + +16,949. Did the men get advances before the end of the season to +any extent?-Yes; they generally got pretty large advances. + +16,950. In what form were these advances given?-In some cases +they got them in nets and ropes and bark, and sometimes in cash +too. + +16,951. Do you supply them with the nets and bark, and other +things they require?-Yes; that is the general practice in +Stornoway. + +16,952. Do they also get supplies of food and meal before the end +of the season?-Yes; sometimes. + +16,953. Where do they get them?-It is generally from the curers +that they get their supplies of nets and ropes, so on. + +16,954. But Mr. Methuen has not a shop in Stornoway?-No; but +he generally supplies the fishermen there with these things if they +cannot get them otherwise. He does not prohibit them from +getting them from the native merchants; but he usually keeps a +supply for any one who may require them. + +16,955. Does he supply any meal at all?-None that I am aware of. + +16,956. But what I asked you was, whether the men required +supplies of meal during the fishing season, if you know where they +get them?-I suppose they get them from the native merchants. + +16,957. Do you know whether the curers have to make such +supplies or to guarantee such supplies in the Lewis?-Yes. I +understand they give the men a line or a letter stating that they +will be responsible for the price. + +16,958. Have you had to do that in your own experience?-No; but +I am aware that it is done at Wick, and I think at Stornoway too. + +16,959. Do you know of any cases at Stornoway in which it had to +be done?-No. + +16,960. Are the fishermen in the Lewis very much indebted to the +curers?-They are. + +16,961. Is that chiefly for nets and boats?-Yes. In some cases the +fish-curers give them boats, and perhaps nets too, and when they +don't make it good fishing they get into debt in that way. + +16,962. Have you had any experience at all of the cod and ling +fishery?-No. + +16,963. Have you not had any management of the fisheries in Fife +or on the east coast of Scotland?-I have been at Fraserburgh and +Rosehearty, but that was principally in connection with the herring +fishing. + +16,964. Are you not acquainted with the cod and ling fishing on +the cast coast of Fife?-No; but I understand that in Fife the fish +are sold each day. The supply regulates the demand; and the men +are not generally agreed at all. + +16,965. Would there, in your opinion, be any difficulty in settling +for the fish as they are delivered, in the western islands and in +Shetland?-No. Perhaps it might take a little time to bring about +the proper arrangements; but I think it would work better if such a +system were adopted. + +16,966. Would it work better in the Wick herring fishery too?-I +see no reason why it should not. + +16,967. Would it be more convenient for the curers?-They would +not make such large profits, I would suppose. + +16,968. Why would the system of paying for the fish as they are +delivered lessen the curers' profit?-My experience, on the east +coast at least, has been, that the free boats are much more +independent than the others. The men seem to have a better +class of boats, and better material generally, when they can get +their money daily or weekly or monthly, as they may call for it. +These men can get their money daily if they wish it. + +16,969. I thought these free boats were settled with at the end of +the season, just like the others: is not that so?-Not generally. +They don't have a regular place for delivering their fish. They +may deliver them at one place today, and at another place next +day, and when they fish in that way they generally collect their +money daily; but at some places, such as North Sunderland, where +the Fisherrow boats fish, they sometimes do not take the whole +amount until the end of the season, except the small amount they +get in supplies. + +16,970. Do you say that at some places the free boats are paid just +as they deliver their fish?-Yes. + +16,971. Where is that?-At Burntisland, for instance. When boats +come up from Anstruther or Buckhaven, they deliver their fish, +and we pay them on delivery, the same day. + +16,972. Are these fish for curing, or for the fresh market?-For +both. + +16,973. Does that lead to any difficulty?-None whatever. I have +had about twenty-eight years' experience of that system of paying +daily. + +16,974. I suppose it saves you keeping accounts with the +fishermen?-We keep an account of the fish we have received, +but we have no running accounts with the men. + +16,975. What kind of fish do you refer to as being delivered in that +way at Burntisland?-Principally herrings. + +16,976. Do you take delivery of cod and haddocks in that way +too?-No; it is very seldom that boats come up in that way with +them. When they do, they sell them to the inhabitants and get cash +for them. + +16,977. Have you had any management of the fisheries at +Anstruther?-Yes; I was two winters there, during the time of the +winter fishing, buying herrings, and we paid in the same way as we +do at Burntisland-just when the fishermen liked to call for their +money, which was generally weekly. Some boats were paid daily, +but others did not come asking for the money until the end of the +week. + +16,978. The quantity of fish delivered was marked down in the +fish-book each time?-Yes. + +16,979. So that you knew exactly how much the men had to get?- +Yes. The price was extended in the book. + +16,980. Had the price been fixed at the beginning of the season?- +No. The price was fixed daily, according to the market, the supply +regulating the demand. That is the system at Burntisland, and at +Anstruther, Pittenweem, and St. Monance. + +16,981. Are the fishermen at these places in a prosperous +condition under that system?-I think so. + +16,982. Has there been a material change in their circumstances +within your recollection?-Yes; a very great change. The boats +and material have been very much improved. + +16,983. Were the men at one time considerably in debt?-I don't +know if they were much in debt, but they did not have the same +class of boats, nor so good material, such as nets, and the like of +that. Their boats are much better now than they used to be. + +16,984. Do the boats there belong to the men themselves?-Yes. + +16,985. Do you know whether many of the men in that district are +now in debt to the curers or merchants?-A few of them may be +but they are not so generally. + +16,986. Was there formerly a system there of settling at longer +intervals?-Yes. I think that generally they did not make a final +settlement with the local curers until the end of the season; but +there have been so many strangers going there within the last few +years, that it seems to have been adopted as a rule to [Page 437] +pay daily, or when the fishermen like to call for the money, which +is at least once a week. + +16,987. I suppose the railway has made a difference in that +respect?-Yes; it has made a great change in the value of the fish. + +16,988. Is the cod and haddock fishery prosecuted to great extent +at Anstruther and Pittenweem?-It is. + +16,989. Is it prosecuted chiefly for the fresh market?-Yes, +principally. + +16,990. Is it carried on with the same boats which are used in the +herring fishing?-No. I think they are generally a larger class of +boats-decked boats-that are used for that fishing. A number of +the fishermen go in the same boats which they use in the herring +fishing, but some of them have a class of boats in which they go +out to sea for two or three days, and these are decked and very +comfortable. + +16,991. Do you buy any of these fish for curing?-Not generally; +but Mr. Methuen does at Anstruther and the other stations there. +He keeps an establishment at Anstruther. + +16,992. Does he cure herrings only, or also cod and haddocks?- +He buys cod and ling, and sends them away fresh, I think, and he +buys a good number of haddocks and smokes them. Haddocks are +what he buys principally there. + +16,993. How are these settled for?-I am not quite sure, but I think +it is once a week. + +16,994. There is no yearly settlement?-No. + +16,995. Do you know any reason why a settlement once a week or +at delivery should not be made in districts like Shetland or the +Lewis, which you know better?-No. I think the fishermen prefer +to get their money once a week, and the curers now like it as well +too. They find less trouble with that system, and the fishermen are +more independent and do not require advances as they did before. + +16,996. Do you think that system of frequent payments has +enabled the fishermen to do without advances to the same extent +as they required them formerly?-I think so. + +16,997. Would there be any practical difficulty in settling in that +way in remote and thinly inhabited districts, such as Shetland and +the Lewis, where the stations may be a long way from towns?- +There would be a difficulty, to a certain extent. One great +difficulty would be in getting cash daily, but they might perhaps +get it weekly. I think, in the western islands, perhaps once a week +might be adopted as a very good plan, if it could be managed, and +they could arrange to get their money from Stornoway. + +16,998. The man might get an order to receive the money due to +him for his fish at the principal countinghouse of the merchant?- +Yes. The general system adopted with Mr. Methuen's boats, and +those of the other curers belonging to Wick, is, that they generally +agree so many boats belonging to the Lewis, and so many +belonging to Caithness, and they return to the Wick fishing after +leaving the Lewis; then at the end of the Wick fishing they are +settled with for both fishings. + +16,999. Have you been in the habit of supplying boats to +fishermen?-When I was at Stornoway for Mr. Methuen, I +generally supplied them with nets and bark, and they got boats +in some cases too. + +17,000. What kind of boats were these?-They got the Caithness +boats; but that is not so much the practice now. The fishermen +seem to get them from the boat-builders now, and make their own +arrangements for them. + +17,001. Have you seen any of the Shetland boats?-Yes, I have +seen them at Wick. I think they generally have four oars. + +17,002. Have you seen any of the six-oared boats?-Yes. I think +there are two or three classes of them. They have a small boat, +then a four-oared boat, and then the larger six-oared boat. + +17,003. But they depend most on the six-oared boats now: have +you any knowledge of the cost of such boats?-There are very few +of the Shetland boats that come to Wick; but I have seen some of +the Orkney boats there, which I believe are very similar, and I +think a boat of that kind, with masts, sails, and oars complete, +would cost about £50. + +17,004. Were these boats half-decked?-There was no deck on +them when I saw them. They were all open. + +17,005. What was the size of them?-I would suppose about 24 +feet keel. + +17,006. However, you don't know much about the Shetland +boats?-No; it is the Orkney boats that I have seen coming to +Wick. + +17,007. Do you purchase salt for curing your fish?-It is generally +supplied from Liverpool. + +17,008. What is the usual price that is paid for salt for curing?-It +varies in price. Last year I think it would be about 12s. per ton in +Liverpool. + +17,009. Have you been able to get salt in Liverpool for curing as +low as 7s. per ton?-No. I have never bought it, but I have an idea +about what it costs. It is generally from 9s. to 11s.; I never heard +of it being under 9s. + +17,010. How do you take it up to the north?-By sailing vessels. + +17,011. What is the freight?-We have paid 9s., and as low as 7s. +6d.; but about 8s. is the general thing to Burntisland. It is brought +from Liverpool round by the north of Scotland and up the Firth. + +17,012. Do you think 10s. would be about the freight to +Shetland?-I would suppose so; but we generally get the +freights cheaper to Burntisland than they would be there, as +it is going to a loading port. Perhaps about 12s. would be a +fair freight to Lerwick, because the vessel has to come away in +ballast again. + +17,013. What allowance would you make for wastage, if you were +calculating the cost of curing?-About 21/2 per cent. is the usual +thing; if there is more waste than that, then we charge the captain. + +17,014. Have you ever made any estimate of the cost of curing a +ton of cod or ling?-No; but I would suppose that in Shetland it +would cost about £1 per ton to split them and cure them and dry +them. There is a great deal of work connected with it. + +Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, CATHERINE BROWN, examined. + +17,015. Have you been a knitter of Shetland goods for a long +time?-Yes, for about fifteen years. + +17,016. Did you live in Lerwick at one time?-Yes. + +17,017. Were you employed to knit a shawl for the Princess of +Wales?-Yes; a cloth or burnous. + +17,018. Have you an appointment as knitter to Her Royal +Highness?-Yes. + +17,019. I believe some of your shawls obtained high prizes at the +London Exhibition of 1870?-Yes. + +17,020. Are you now going to begin business in Edinburgh?-I +think so. + +17,021. Have your knitted for Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I have sold to +him. I have always been in the habit of knitting with my own wool +and selling my goods. + +17,022. Have you never knitted with the merchants' wool at all?- +No. + +17,023. Have you seen Mr. Sinclair within the last ten days?-Yes. + +17,024. Are you aware that he and some other merchants in +Shetland desired that you should be examined before this +Commission?-I know that he wished me to be examined. + +17,025. I have been asked by Mr. Sinclair to put certain questions +to you on the subject of your dealings with him. Do you know +whether, as a usual thing, the merchants in Lerwick pay higher or +lower prices for hosiery articles than you could get from private +individuals?-They pay lower prices. + +17,026. Is that taking the price in goods?-I never sold for goods, +always for money. + +17,027. Did you never do that from the very first?-I was in the +habit of selling to private individuals then. + +17,028. Did you never sell for goods at all?-When I wished +goods, I exchanged my articles for them; but I got money +whenever I wanted it. + +17,029. How did you succeed in obtaining cash for [Page 438] +your hosiery whenever you wished?-The merchants always +came to me and asked for the goods. I did not go to them. + +17,030. But you were not always such a good knitter as you are +now. Did you not go through any apprenticeship?-Not with the +merchants. + +17,031. Was the merchants' money price for the goods lower than +the money price which you got from private individuals?-Yes. I +always gave it to them a little lower, perhaps 1s. or 2s. or 3s. less +on a shawl, than I asked from a private individual. + +17,032. Did you sell your shawls for a lower price to the +merchants in Lerwick than you sell them for to the merchants +in Edinburgh?-No. I sell them at the same price to the +merchants in Lerwick as to the merchants in Edinburgh. + +17,033. Have you ever sold a shawl to a merchant in Edinburgh?- +Yes. + +17,034. Have you not got more for it from him than you would +have got from a merchant in Lerwick?-That was some years ago. + +17,035. Was Mr. White the merchant in Edinburgh to whom you +sold?-Yes. + +17,036. Do you know whether knitters in Lerwick, who depend +entirely on knitting for their living, are able to get money for their +work?-I do not know about any person but myself. + +17,037. Did you ever hear of lines or goods being sold by knitters +which they had got for their hosiery?-No, not lines. I have heard +of them selling their goods, but I could not say whether it was true +or not. I have not heard of that often. + +17,038. When a merchant buys a fine shawl or a neck-tie or a lot +of veils from a knitter, do you know whether he sells them in the +south for a larger price than he pays?-I don't know anything +about that. + +17,039. Have you ever bought shawls or veils in Edinburgh?-No. + +17,040. Or priced them?-No. + +17,041. Are the prices of goods in the Lerwick shops generally +higher or lower than the prices you pay here for such goods, for +instance, as cottons or petticoats-I am a stranger here, and I have +not bought anything yet, except a piece of velvet, and I paid the +same price for it here as I would have done in Lerwick. + + +Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, CHARLES FLEMING, examined. + +17,042. What are you?-I am a draper to trade, and I am the buyer +in that department for Messrs. M'Laren, Son, & Co., High Street, +Edinburgh. + +17,043. Is that a wholesale as well as a retail house?-Yes. + +17,044. How many years' experience have you had in the +business?-Eighteen years. I have been two years in my +present position as buyer. + +17,045. I suppose you are one of the largest buyers in that line +in Scotland?-I believe we are, for the retail trade; but we are +wholesale as well. + +17,046. Do you buy for the wholesale trade, or only for the +retail?-I buy for both. + +17,047. I show you a piece of half-bleached cotton: what is the +usual price of that as an article of retail trade?-It depends upon +the width. There are a number of different widths, but the usual +widths made are 29, 32, and 36 inches. It is also made 40 inches +and wider, but these are not usually sold. + +17,048. Can you tell from the sample what the width has been?- +No. + +17,049. What would be the proper retail price for the 29 inch +width?-I should say 21/2d. + +17,050. Would that be the fair price in a country district?-I think +it would be a very fair price. + +17,051. Would it not be legitimate to charge a somewhat higher +rate in a remote district of the Highlands?-I think not, for an +article such as this. That would be the outside stretch that it would +be worth at the present time for 29 inches. + +17,052. Is there anything narrower than that?-I am not aware of +anything. That is the trade term for them; but I don't know that +they exactly measure the width which is named. + +17,053. Would you be surprised to be asked 41/2d. a yard for +that?-I think it would be very much out of the way. + +17,054. What would be a fair price for it if it were 32 inches +wide?-About 31/4d. a yard; and about 33/4d. for 36 inches. + +17,055. In all these valuations, are you assuming that the article is +sold in a country district, and not in a large city establishment +where there is a rapid turnover and great competition?-Yes. I +think that usually very little difference is made on that class of +stuff, wherever it is sold. + +17,056. Is it a very common sort of article?-It is the most +common thing of the kind that is made. It is generally used for +an inter-lining for different parts of ladies' dress, being put +between two other materials. + +17,057. What would it be used for by working people in the +country?-It might be used for lining dress skirts, or such as that. + +17,058. I show you another piece of half-bleached cotton: is that +also made of different widths?-Yes. The value of that, at 29 +inches, would be 4d. a yard; at 32 inches, 51/4d.; and at 36 inches, +61/2d. It is made also in greater widths, but not usually sold, unless +for some special purpose. + +17,059. Of what greater width is it made?-It is made in 40 +inches, and 48 and 54. + +17,060. Would the price rise in proportion to the widths in the +same ratio as in the three widths you have already mentioned?- +Yes. + +17,061. But 36 inches is the widest that is commonly sold?-Yes. + +17,062. Is that used by fishermen for making oil-cloth?-It may be +used for that purpose. + +17,063. If used in that way, what width would most likely be +selected?-36 inches would be the best width for cutting out. It is +the most usual width made in this class of stuff for almost any +purpose. Although I am terming it 36 inches, it may measure less, +perhaps 341/2 or 35 inches; and the same proportion with the other widths. + +17,064. For 36 inches wide, would 8d. a yard be too high a price +for that cotton?-I think it would be very dear at 8d. a yard, even +at the present price of cotton. + +17,065. Was the price in January higher or lower?-It was lower +in January than now. There has been an advance of about 5 per +cent. on cotton goods since then, and there has been a difference of +10 per cent. since October last. Cotton goods were very steady all +last season until then. + +17,066. I show you a piece of shirting: what value do you put upon +that in the same way?-It is usually made in two widths, 32 and 36 +inches. Those, of course, are the same as calicoes; they don't +measure exactly what the makers term them, but they are known +as these widths. The 32 inches is the width principally used, and +this class of stuff is about 63/4d. at the present time. I daresay had +it been bought a couple of months ago it would have been 61/2d. In +the other width it would be about 1d. more. + +17,067. Would 1s. a yard be a high price for that?-It would be a +very exorbitant price, in my judgement. + +17,068. Would it be so in any part of the kingdom?-It would be +so in any part of the world, I should say, either in or out of the +kingdom. It would be a very extraordinary price to charge. + +17,069. Is there no greater width than 36 inches?-Not in this +class of stuff, of this make. This is Glasgow-made stripe, and they +don't make them wider than 36. There is a Kirkcaldy stripe too, +but it is different class from this altogether. + +17,070. Is that stuff used for making shirts for men?-That is what +it is principally used for. Country people also use it for what they +term short-gowns and children's dresses, and different things of +that kind; but its principal use is for working-men's shirts. + +[Page 439] + +INDEX. + +ABERNETHY, Archibald (analysis of his evidence, p. 301), is +a shopkeeper at Whiteness in Tingwall, 12,251; deals in eggs, +butter, groceries, and soft goods, 12,252, 12,253; generally pays in +goods, but gives money often for eggs, 12,254; buys fish green, +and cures, 12,257; men prefer to have price of fish fixed at end of +season, 12,259. + +ADIE, Thomas Mountford (analysis of his evidence, p. 138), +fish merchant at Voe (Olnafirth), 5593; as a rule, fishermen are +engaged to deliver all their fish, and take the current price at the +end of season, 5596; has once or twice made contracts to buy fish +at fixed price from men, and found that they were discontented if +afterwards the price of fish rose, and he was obliged to pay more +than he had agreed, 5598-5601; thinks the price, if fixed at +beginning of year, would be lower than they generally get at +present, 5604; under it no advances could be made to men, 5608; +buying of boats, 5609-5624; 3d. per cwt. more paid at Voe for fish +to men having their own boats, 5610-5612; most men have an +account at store, 5633; discount for cash payments, 5636; fishing +lines, 5640-5646; bad debts are no advantage to merchant, 5655; +men are now in great fear lest any change be made, 5657; +smuggled fish, 5663; bucht lines, 5664-5666; men not compelled +to take goods from store, 5679; fish the merchants' only security, +5685, 5686; price of meal, 5697-5700; curers have a very small +profit on fish, 5704; Faroe fishing, 5726; hosiery, 5741; is always +paid for in goods, 5742; there is no profit on it, 5743; does not +think knitters would take a less price in cash, 5749; beach boys, +5751; tacksman has no profit on rents, 5767. + +ADIE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 210), son and +partner of T. M. Adie (p. 138), 8640; there is an arrangement that +when an indebted fisherman goes to another employer he is bound +to pay the debt incurred to a former employer, 8641; cost of +curing, 8660. (recalled, p. 213). Gives further evidence as to the +cost of curing fish, 8750. + +ADVANCES of cash during season, 815, 1177, 5030, 8587, +9390, 9544, 9600, 9868, 10,249, 10,631, 10,940, 11,172, 11,977, +12,589, 13,162, 13,322, 13,882, 14,782, 15,574, 15,911. +for boats and boat hires, etc., 3623, 3839, 5206, 5357, 5609, +6507, 6724, 7208, 9092, 9856, 10,139, 10,572, 11,879, 12,295, +12,957, 13,270, 13,396, 14,109, 14,933, 15,053, 15,095, 16,794, +16,890, 16,999. + +AITKEN, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 119), +fisherman, Eastshore, Dunrossness, 4801; and tenant of house, +4802; is bound by writing to fish for landlord, 4803; thinks +freedom in fishing would be an advantage, 4806; could get meal +cheaper than at store, 4835; wages fixed by landlord, 4853-4855; +must work for landlord because there is no one else to work for, +4855. + +ALLOWANCES to indebted men, 12,641, 13,162, 13,179, +13,967. + +ANDERSON, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 166), +fisherman at Hillyar, 6866; fishes for Mr. Laurence Smith, 6868; +previously fished for a number of other dealers, 6869; changed +employer frequently, because he got in debt and could not get +supplies, 6875, 6876. + + +ANDERSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 224), +fisherman at Burravoe, 9271; formerly tenant and fisherman at +Lunna, 9272; was bound to fish for tacksman, 9275; fishes now for +Mr. Adie, 9284; deals generally with him, 9286; makes no +complaint as to prices, 9299. + +ANDERSON, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 316), +fisherman and tenant in Skerries, 12,772, 12,773; bound to fish, +12,774; sells farm produce to curer, 12,778; has no wish for a +change, 12,781; dealers' prices too high, 12,785. + +ANDERSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 158), +merchant and fish-curer at Hillswick, 6498; tacksman of estate of +Ollaberry, 6499; men engaged for fishing paid current price at end +of season, 6503; men having their own boats and being free from +debt paid 6d. per cwt. extra for fish, 6507; ling fishing, 6523; does +not think long settlements cause debt, 6537; does not think the +fixing of a price at the beginning of season would be an advantage +to the men, 6543; men under no obligation to deal at store, 6554; +men smuggle a good deal, 6564; buys cattle and farm produce, +6583; generally pays for them in cash, 6585; beach boys, 6602; +and curers paid at end of season, 6605; kelp, 6628-6640; paid +either in cash or goods, 6631; hosiery, 6641; generally paid in +goods, 6642, 6643; there is no profit on it, 6645; people generally +ask goods, but this may be because they understand it is the +custom to pay in kind, 6656; there would be no advantage in a +cash system, 6671-6674; home-spun tweed usually paid in cash, +6681-6688; tea often taken by knitters, 6696; never knew goods +exchanged for cash, 6697; lines, 6700; generally brought back by +original holder, 6701; there is no impediment to the opening of +other shops, 6707; is agent for Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, +6711; in the case of men losing a boat, would not stop the +compensation money to pay shop account, but if they were +indebted for the boat he would stop it, 6717-6722; boat-building, +6724; thinks a great boon to Shetland would be the introduction of +a land bill, as at present a tenant improving his farm is liable to be +ejected or have his rent raised at any moment, 6749; proprietors +are unwilling to give leases, 6751. + +ANDERSON, John (recalled, p. 189). There is an agreement +amongst merchants, to protect them from attempts on the part of +men to escape payment of debts, that they shall not engage the +men without seeing that their debts are paid, 7776; dissents from +evidence of Rev. Mr. Sutherland (p. 179), 7796; and thinks the +people may be favourably compared with their equals in other +places for frugality, foresight, and moral virtues, 7797-7800; it is +not possible to introduce a more extensive system of winter +fishing, 7804. + +ANDERSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 168), +fisherman at Hillswick, 6977; lives with his father, 6978; fishes for +Laurence Smith, 6979; settles yearly, 6980; deals at his shop, +6981; has pass-book, 6994; was a beach boy, 6999; when indebted, +considered himself bound to fish for dealer, 7010-7014; but his +supplies being stopped, went to another dealer, 7026. + +ANDERSON, Mrs. Margery Manson or (analysis of her +evidence, p. 32), lives in Lerwick, 1648; knits with her own wool, +1649; previously for dealer, with his wool, 1650; paid in goods, +1652; could not get money, 1656; goods not worth the price put on +them, 1658; had pass-book, 1664-1670; sells now for goods and a +little money to dealer, 1674; would prefer to be paid in money, +1675; gets lines, 1679. + +ANDERSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 67), +shopman to Robert Linklater, 3058; refers to evidence of Margaret +Tulloch (p. 29) and Mrs. Thomas Anderson (p. 32); work was +refused them because of their slowness in executing it, 3059; lines +not given, 3070, 3071; system of dealing, 3060-3076; does not sell +wool, 3087; there is very often no profit on hosiery, 3088-3097; +but on the whole there is a small profit, 3149; goods are charged +higher because of the present system, 3176, 3177; Shetland wool is +not sold, 3179. + +ANDERSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 254), fishes +for Spence & Co., Haroldswick, 10,500; runs an account with +them, 10,501; formerly paid cash, 10,504; gets the same quality of +goods now, but pays more, 10,507; monthly payments might be +advantageous in good years, 10,512. + +ARCUS, Mrs. Ann (analysis of her evidence, p. 33), living in +Lerwick, 1729; a dresser of shawls, 1729; sometimes knits, 1731; +dresses shawls for dealers and workers, 1738; occasionally +disposes of shawls for workers, 1746; generally paid in goods, +1754; thinks country girls do not require money, but knit to [Page +440] clothes, 1754, 1755; can always get money herself, 1759; but +does not know if others can, 1761, 1777; and gets lines, 1764; has +no pass-book, 1791; in summer sells sometimes to visitors, 1804, +1805; gets money in full, 1806, 1807; and prefers it, 1808-1810; if +paid in money, thinks so high a price would not be given, as +merchants have a profit on goods, and so can allow more when +they pay in kind, 1825; yet knitters prefer this, 1826; thinks the +workers should be grateful to the dealers, who have entirely +created a trade and found a mart for their goods throughout the +country, 1831. + +BEACH Boys, hiring of, etc., 4367, 5000, 5070, 5086, 5101, 5241, +5751, 5907, 6602, 6999, 7533, 8792, 10,108, 10,283, 10,345, +12,295, 12,437, 12,808, 13,353, 14,086, 15,102. + +BLANCE, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 221), fisherman at +Burravoe, also engaged in seal and whale fishing, 9136; tenant of +land under Mr. M'Queen, 9137; system of engagements and +settlements in whale fishing, 9147-9221; half-pay tickets, 9154. + +BLANCE, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 137), fisherman at +Midgarth, 5542; tenant under trustees, 5543; under no obligation to +fish, 5544; deals at the stores of merchants for whom he fishes, +5547; when men are in debt they seldom get cash, 5552; considers +himself under obligation to fish when indebted, 5554; has no +pass-book, 5574; smuggling of fish, 5577-5592. + +BLANCE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 149), fisherman at +Ollaberry, 6008; and tenant, 6009; fishes for landlord, 6011; but is +not bound, 6012; has been free for six years, 6013; goes to Faroe +fishing; does not know whether if he went to home fishing he +would be bound, 6026; believes that men generally are, 6028: +deals principally with merchant, 6057; always had advances of +money when he wishes, 6076; being indebted to merchant, +considers himself bound to fish for him, 6092, 6093; fishing lines +and bait, 6103; knitters, 6136; paid generally in goods, 6138-6147; +does not know whether money could be got, 6147-6150; +ejectment, 6155; never knew of ejectment for refusal to fish, 6160; +eggs, 6161-6166; freedom in sale of, 6181, 6182. + +BLANCH, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 206), fisherman and +farmer near Brae, 8510; skipper in Faroe fishing, 8516; for Mr. +Adie, 8517; settlement generally yearly, 8518; men generally take +their supplies from merchant, 8519; never knew of men bound to +fish, 8528; thinks the present system favours the masters, as they +can fix the price of fish as they choose, and men do not know what +they are earning till the end of the season, 8531; Englishmen +fishing for Shetland curers have price fixed at the beginning of +season, 8539, 8541; the system of credit causes men to incur debt, +8564; thinks it would be a good plan for a certain part of the price +of fish to be paid on delivery, and the rest at settlement according +to current price, 8567; at home fishing thinks a man, unless +indebted, is not bound to fish for merchant, 8575; in selling +Shetland cloth always got cash if asked, 8576. (recalled). Gives +evidence as to the cost of curing fish, 8713; men have to supply +their own lines and fishing apparatus in Faroe smacks--thinks the +owner should, 8715. + +BOATS and Boat Hires, purchase of and advances for (<see> +Advances, etc.). + +BOLT, Mrs. Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 38), lives in +Lerwick, 1940; knits with her own wool and sells to dealer, 1941; +has no pass-book, 1942; is paid in goods, 1947; gets money when +she wishes, 1951; sometimes gets lines, 1955; can get wool for +goods or lines, 1955-1965. + +BOLT, Mrs. Wilhelmina (analysis of her evidence, p. 38), +corroborates Mrs. Barbara Bolt (p. 38), 1969-1971; got money and +goods as she wished from merchants for hosiery, 1972. + +BORTHWICK, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 32), lives in +Lerwick, and knits, 1608; for dealers, 1610; has no pass-book, +1611, 1612; is paid in goods, 1616; price is fixed by dealer, 1617; +seldom gets money, 1620-1623; sometimes has to sell goods to +obtain money, 1627; prefers to knit for money, 1630. + +BROWN, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 437), has knitted +Shetland goods for about fifteen years, 17,015; and has +appointment as knitter to H.R.H the Princess of Wales, 17,018; +always sold hosiery in Lerwick for money, 17,026; and sold at a +price slightly lower, 17,031; has heard of women selling goods to +get money, 17,037. + +BROWN, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 131), tenant under +Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and fishes for him, 5284; corroborates +evidence of William Goudie (p. 105), 5285; in consequence of a +report of him selling some fish to another merchant, 5287; his +house was put up to let by Mr. Bruce, 5288; on proving to Mr. +Bruce that the report was false he was allowed to remain, 5294; +meal dearer at store than at Lerwick, 5300. + +BROWN, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 193), has a small +shop, 7957; at Brough in North Delting, 7958; deals in groceries, +7959; never is forbidden to do so, 7962; deals for cash, 7964; +fishes, and buys small fish from other men, 7964; cures fish, 7968; +does not think there is any restriction placed on the sale of any fish +by men, 7975; kelp, 7986; meal, 7999; thinks a ready money +system would be an advantage to all + +BRUCE, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 186), schoolmaster +and inspector of poor, 7628; pauperism has neither increased +nor diminished in his experience, 7631; gives an account of +management of paupers, 7629-7656. + +BRUCE, John, jun. (analysis of his evidence, p. 329), son of Mr. +Bruce, Sumburgh, 13,292 tacksman of property at Dunrossness. +Gives in paper stating that tenants on property managed by him +are free to go to sea, to the Greenland or Faroe fishings, and to +pursue any land occupation; but remaining at home fishing, are +expected to deliver their fish to him, payment at full market value +being rendered. This is a condition of holding their farms, and is +beneficial to them, as they must fish for some merchant; he gives +as good a price as any other, and besides has the most convenient +stations for delivery of fish. Keeps store for the convenience of +men, but not expected to deal there against their wishes. Prior to +1860 men fished as they pleased, and generally were unable to pay +their rents. The people are now in a much better state. Goods at +store are of the best quality, and not unreasonably priced, 13,293. + +BRUCE, John James (analysis of his evidence, p. 74), shopman to +Mr. Sinclair, 3308; there is no profit on hosiery, 3312-3342; lines +are generally brought back by original owner, 3345; never knew an +instance of lines being sold or transferred, 3350; but has heard that +such things are done, 3355; under cash system workers would +actually get less value for their work, 3402; but there would be the +advantage of having money for provisions, 3409; and it might +cause knitters to work more carefully, and then there would be a +regular market, 3412. +-(recalled, p. 77). Gives evidence as to lines, 3445. + +BURGESS, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 126), fisherman and +tenant at Hillwill, 5097; corroborates James Flawes (p. 121) and +others, 5098; beach boys, 5101; wages not paid until settlement, +5103; are bound to serve, 5105; men are free to deal anywhere, +5114; has no pass-book, 5117. + +CATTLE, disposal of, etc., 942, 1295, 4751, 5352, 6583, 7228, +8130, 8849, 8870, 8944, 9127, 9489, 9686, 10,018, 10,071, +12,241, 12,346, 12,727, 12,758, 13,241. +-Marking and selling, 5278, 7235, 7600, 8135, 9690. + +CHARACTER of Shetland people, 3623, 5981, 7797, +9382, 12,148, 13,807, 14,743, 14,757. + +CHRISTIE, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 22), fisherman +and tenant at Burra, 1063; corroborates Walter Williamson (p.15) +and Peter Smith (p. 20), 1064; to fish and cure for themselves +would be advantageous to men, 1074; knitters, 1077; are +invariably paid in goods, 1078; wool supplied by dealer, 1084; +and price fixed by him, 1091. + +CLOTH made by women, sale of, 6681, 8163, 8254, 8309, +8488, 8576. + +CLUNAS, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 78), lives at +Unst, 3456; knits, 3451; for merchant, 3452, 3453; and sometimes +used her own wool, 3455; is paid in goods, 3458; money not given, +3459; sometimes spins wool, and believes she could get cash for +the worsted, 3486, 3494. + +COD Fishing (home), 12,236, 12,468. + +COLVIN, Gavin (analysis of his evidence, p. 28), fisherman in +Levenwick, 1382; corroborates John Leask (p. 25), 1392; goods at +Mouat's store very inferior, 1394; all produce was required to be +delivered up, 1397; can now get money if he requires it, 1405; +price of fish should be fixed beforehand, 1409. + +CONDITION of people, 3623, 5235, 7470, 9709, 10,544. + +COTTON at store, 9815, 9847, 10,511, 13,200, 13,408, +16,656, 17,047. + +COUTTS, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 386), a provision +merchant in Lerwick for eleven years, 15,261; previously bought +in soft goods, 15,263; but gave it up as it caused him a great deal +of trouble, 15,264; and [Page 441] he sometimes had stolen goods +brought to him, etc., 15,266. + +COUTTS, James (recalled, p. 387). Produces book showing his +transactions in brokery line, 15,332; paid for these goods in cash, +and people spent it frequently afterwards in his shop, 15,334; has +taken goods from knitters which they had got for hosiery, 15,336. + +COUTTS, Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 284), lives in +Scalloway, 11,585; she and her sister support themselves, father, +and aunt, by knitting, 11,587; knits with merchant's wool, 11,589; +is paid in tea and goods, 11,590; cannot get money, 11,591; except +the merest trifle, 11,593-11,596; barters tea for meal and potatoes, +11,601. + +COWIE, Dr. Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 369), medical +practitioner in Lerwick, 14,692; is a native of Lerwick, 14,693; has +always lived there except when south for his education, 14,694; a +system of barter is almost universal, 14,696; knitters are paid in +goods to an extent that is unwholesome for themselves and the +community, 14,698; there is an utter disproportion in the food and +dress of knitters, who are often clothed in a gaudy, showy manner, +while almost starving, 14,699; dress that they wear, also, is +unsuited to the climate, 14,701; this is owing chiefly to the system +of truck, 14,703; there is no pawnbroker's shop in Shetland, +14,708; some old women who make a livelihood by hawking +goods for knitters from house to house, 14,709; believes +immorality prevails to a considerable extent in Shetland, but +cannot say certainly, 14,711; does not think professional +prostitution is greater in Lerwick than other seaport towns, 14,712; +but believes that occasional prostitution prevails to a greater +extent, 14,713; this may be accounted for by the system of barter, +as knitters have insufficient food and plenty of handsome clothes, +14,715; statistics show that illegitimacy is less in Shetland than in +many parts of Scotland, but believes that for several reasons the +Registrar-General's returns are not to be depended on, 14,717- +14,721; the system has also evil effects on the physical systems of +knitters, 14,773; and leads them to be very extravagant in dress, +14,725; it also causes them to use tea to an extent that is injurious +to their health, 14,726; oatmeal, fish, and potatoes, the principal +diet of a fisherman's family, 14,729; under the system of fishing, +men do not know whether they are in debt or not, 14,731; and this +causes them to be deficient in independence, and raises a deceitful, +time-serving disposition, and cripples enterprise, 14,739; people +are intelligent and pretty well-bred, but they want proper ambition, +and have no desire of improving their condition, 14,743; this is +caused by the system of barter, by the short leases of land, and the +want of encouragement to make improvements, 14,744; houses in +Shetland are very bad, 14,745; people are sober and steady, +14,757; thinks the system of long credit injurious to all concerned, +14,759. + +CURER'S profit, 3623, 4990, 5704, (small) 9698. + +CURING, Cost of, 8551, 8660, 8713, 8750, 8999, 9698, 10,109, +10,276, 10,344, 11,291, 11,422, 13,573, 15,240, 15,766, 15,962, +16,474, 17,007. + +DALGLEISH, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 295), partner of +Nicholson & Co., Scalloway, 12,021; corroborates Mr. Charles +Nicholson (p. 293), 12,023. + +DALZELL, Mrs. Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 388), lives +in Scalloway Road, Lerwick, 15,359; has knitted with her own and +merchant's wool, 15,360; mostly with her own, 15,361; is paid in +money and goods, 15,362; often entirely in money, 15,363; +knitters are generally paid in goods only, 15,364; money only +given for very fine articles, 15,865; best Shetland wool is very +difficult to procure, 15,397. + +DAVIDSON, Donald (analysis of his evidence, p. 435), fish-curer +in Burntisland, 16,920; for a long time in Mr. Methuen's +employment, 16,921; his stations in Shetland given up two years +since, 16,925; Mr. Methuen agreed with Mr. Bruce for the delivery +of the fish, 16,934; and not directly with the men, 16,935; thinks a +system of cash payments could be introduced and worked in +Shetland, 16,965. + +DEBTS, Transfer of, from one merchant to another, 7365, 7751, +7776, 8127, 8373, 8641, 9074, 9940,10,034,10,499, 10,977, +13,001, 14,137, 14,558, 16,010, 16,299, 16,566. + +DEPOSITS in bank and hoarding, 3735, 4785, 10,709, 13,055, +13,726, 15,090, 15,223, 16,330, 16,513. + +EDMONSTONE, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 258), factor +on Buness estate, and a farmer, 10,624; formerly a fish-merchant, +10,625; was the writer of letter (Q. 44,511) in Edinburgh evidence, +10,626; retains opinions stated therein, 10,627; thinks cash +advances during season should be compulsory, 10,631, fishing +and farming must be combined in Shetland, owing to the +unproductiveness of the winter fishing, 10,633; small boats best +for winter fishery, 10,634; fish-curers arrange payment of rents, +10,640; people are beginning to see the wisdom of making +improvements, 10,670; thinks the diet of people much better than +that of the same class in England and Scotland, 10,672; meal, fish, +potatoes, bread, and biscuits principal articles of diet, 10,679. + +EGGS, Disposal of, etc., 949, 1297, 6161, 6483, 6853, 7074, 7448, +7538, 8870, 8878, 8967, 9908, 10,169, 11,435, 11,853, 12,038, +12,048, 12,218, 12,252, 12,295, 12,346, 12,695, 12,836, 12,928, +13,015, 13,043, 14,023. + +EUNSON, Mrs. Ann (analysis of her evidence, p. 77), lives in +Lerwick, 3415; knits for dealer, 3418; paid in goods, and got +money when she required, 3421; sometimes sold shawls to +travelling merchants for money, 3430; sometimes got advances +of money from dealer even when there was not a balance in her +favour, 3444. + +EUNSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 125), fisherman +and tenant at Waterbru, 5056; corroborates James Flawes (p. 121) +and George Goudie (p. 124), 5058, 5059; liberty money, 5060. +5061; beach boys, 5070, 5071. + +EVICTION, 577,585, 722, 790, 900, 1012, 1327, 2994, 3025, +3625, 3659, 3755, 4274, 4385, 4486, 4510, 4727, 4777, 4935, +4956, 5069, 5288, 5314, 5320, 6155, 8910, 9227, 9238, 9423, +9636, 10,162, 12,323, 12,625, 12,693, 13,433, 14,816, 16,437. + +EXTER, Janet (analysis of her evidence, p. 102), knitter in Satter, +4093; knits for Mr. Linklater, 4094; with his wool, 4095; no lines +or pass-book, 4099; could not get money, 4102; is poorly paid, +4101; in goods, 4102; would prefer money, if even a little less, +4103; knits now for Mr. Sinclair, and gets part payment in cash, +4111; formerly exchanged goods for meal, 4112. + +FAIR ISLE, 4729, 4739, 5770, 13,056, 13,233, 13,326, p. +330, f.n. + +FAMILY supplied by dealer in men's absence (Faroe fishing), +1172, 117S, 1188, 2955, 11,058. + +FARM Produce, Disposal of, etc., 939, 949, 1294, 1300, 4673, +6383, 8870, 9873, 10,079, 10,169, 10,605, 12,778, 13,089, 13,814. +-Restrictions on sale of, 5271, 12,689. + +FAROE Fishing, Statements as to, 876, 923, 1157, 1172, 1178, +1183, 1214, 2929, 5726, 6900, 7860, 8515, 9371, 10,912, 11,268, +11,718, 12,011, 12,211, 12,262, 12,267, 12,295, 12,407, 13,557, +13,603, 13,625, 14,080, 15,107, 15,211, 15,227, 15,706, 16,310, +16,428, 16,490. + +FEAR of landlord and merchant, 572, 9670, 12,334, 13,421, +13,472. + +FINES, 1044, 3755, 3623, 3917, 4483, 4534, 4751, 9241, +12,695, 12,698. + +FLAUS, Mrs. Helen (analysis of her evidence, p. 38), lives in +Lerwick; dresses shawls for knitters, 1973; and knits, 1973; +confirms Mrs. Arcus (p. 33), 1974; sells for knitters to merchants, +and gets lines, 1985; or sees it marked in a book, 1986; can always +get money if she wishes it, but cannot say if it is the custom to give +it, 1998; believes that if hosiery were paid in money, a less price +would be given, 2004, 2012. + +FLAWES, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 121), fisherman and +tenant at Rennesta, near Quendale, 4910; bound to fish, 4911; on +pain of expulsion, 4914; current price of fish fixed by four leading +merchants, 4919; other merchants vary, and sometimes give more, +4923-4931; knows cases of men being threatened for fishing to +other merchants, 4935-4947; liberty money, 4948; men not obliged +to deal at store, 4971; goods dearer there, 4978; thinks the price +given for fish is not sufficiently high, 4988; boys are bound to act +as beach boys, 5000, 5001. + +FLEMING, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 438), draper and +buyer for Messrs. Maclaren, Son, & Co., High Street, Edinburgh, +17,042; has had eighteen years' experience--two as a buyer, +17,044; gives evidence as to value of samples of cotton shown +him, 17,047, 17,070. + +FLOUR, Price of, etc., 9069, 9899, 11,847, 14,966, 15,043, +16,862. + +FORDYCE, Mrs. John Winwick or (analysis of her evidence, p. +407), lives in Chromate Lane, Lerwick, 16,038; knits with her own +wool, 16,040; gets goods or money as she requires, 16,065; but the +custom is to pay in goods, 16,066. + +FRASER, Rev. James (analysis of his evidence, p. 194), a +clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four years, 8007; is well +acquainted with the people, 8008; and the systems of payment +and credit purchases practised, 8009; thinks the effect of these on +the people is not very good, 8010; the large amount of bad debts in +[Page 442] merchant's books cause him to charge higher prices, +8011, 8012; the credit system is an annoyance to the merchant, +8016; and injurious to the independence of the people, 8022; does +not think fishing and farming could be separated, 8029; payment +of hosiery in cash would be no advantage, as a rule, to the knitters, +8035; goods given in exchange for hosiery dearer, 8040; thinks a +system of agricultural improvements would be the best thing for +Shetland, as men would then be able to supply their own meal, and +be more independent of curer, 8052; a system of leaseholding +necessary, 8067; price for fish fixed at the beginning of season +would not be an advantage to men, 8071; cannot see any +advantage in periodical advances during season, 8074; in letter +sent afterwards to Commissioner, insists again strongly on +agricultural improvements as the most necessary thing in Shetland, +p. 197. + +GARRIOCH, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 213), shopkeeper +to Hay & Co. in Fetlar, 8762; price of meal, 8766; men are not +bound to fish, 8781; beach boys, 8792; whisky, 8833; kelp, 8838; +paid either in cash or goods, 8845; purchases cattle, 8849; pays in +cash, 8850. + +GARRIOCK, Lawrence (analysis of his evidence, p. 335), is a +fisherman at Scatness, 13,454; lives on the property of Mr. Bruce +of Simbister; fishes for Hay & Co., but is not bound, 13,455; deals +sometimes at store, 13,457; and runs an account, 13,461; paid +balance in cash at settlement, 13,462; is satisfied with price and +quality of the goods, 13,465; has no passbook, 13,470; men are +afraid to give evidence before commissioner because of curers, +13,472; they are afraid of being ejected, 13,474; landlord takes +one-third of oil of whales captured by men, 13,478; thinks this +unfair, 13,479; landlord demands it, under threat of raising their +rents, 13,482. + +GARRIOCK, Lewis F. U. (analysis of his evidence, p. 302), +partner of Garriock & Co., general merchants and fish-curers at +Reawick, 12,293; gives in a written statement, 12,295, stating that +the firm's general store is Reawick, and they have besides two +smaller shops: Messrs. Garriock last season cured the fish from ten +smacks at Faroe, etc., and five smaller ones at Orkney and home +fishing, to the gross value of £4600; there is no obligation on men +to deal at store; in bad seasons merchants lose heavily by bad +debts; merchants would greatly prefer a cash system, with payment +on delivery, but such a system would lead to fixed wages; men +curing their own fish are free in selling. It is the exception, and not +the rule, for men to be indebted; never knew liberty money paid, +12,307; tenants are never interfered with in sale of hosiery, cattle, +or farm produce, 12,346; nor bound to deal at store, 12,347; Burra +men generally go to the Faroe fishing, 12,362; not to avoid the +restrictions laid on the ling fishing, 12,365; they are bound by their +leases to deliver fish to Messrs. Hay, 12,367; Messrs. Garriock, at +one time issued a circular at Foula, stating that they wished to +ascertain the views of the people as to whether they wished to cure +their own fish, stating at the same time that if they did, Messrs. +Garriock's store would be discontinued, 12,380; the men +unanimously stated they did not wish such conditions, 12,381; men +prefer to bring their fish to the principal merchant, because he can +command the largest market, and therefore give the best price, +12,400; young men going to the Faroe fishing require to have their +outfit on credit, 12,407; in the Faroe fishing the men and masters +are actually joint-adventurers, only the merchant takes all the risk, +12,418, 12,419; in home cod fishing the men are settled with in the +same manner as the Faroe fishermen, 12,468, 12,472; the winter +fishing could not be much increased, 12,478; long-line fishing +from the bank would be impracticable in winter, 12,490; +Greenland fishing, 12,506; was formerly a nursery for the +merchant service, but now young men do not go, as the Board of +Trade regulations prevent them from getting outfit on credit, +12,511, 12,512; large advances are made in bad season to men, +12,547; men usually continue to fish until their debt is paid off, +12,549; the system of fishing on shares is the best, 12,608; +believes men would refuse to adopt weekly payments, 12,610. + +GARRIOCK, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 385), agent in +Lerwick, 15,209; sells fishing materials, 15,210; is engaged only in +the Faroe fishing, 15,211; men deal with certain other merchants +for goods which be guarantees, 15,212; and the amount of their +account is deducted at settlement, 15,214; occasionally receives a +commission, 15,215; many men are not in a position to require +advances, but all take them, 15,223; in the Faroe trade, merchants +often have to give the men a price as high or even higher than they +themselves get, 15,227. + +GARRIOCK, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 411), lives in +Sandsting parish, 16,216; serves in Naval Reserve in Lerwick, +16,217; was bred a seaman, 16,218; has principally gone to +Greenland and Davis Straits, 16,219; has shipped from various +agents, 16,222; always got his outfit from agent with whom he +served, 16,224; and supplies for his family, 16,225; always got +cash if he asked for it, 16,229; at settlement agent sometimes +attends at the Custom-house to receive payment of his account, +and at other times the men go down to his shop, and settle it after +they have been paid, 16,239; never knew an agent refuse to give +money, 16,243; men may buy their outfits where they please, +16,270; has bought his from a dealer other than the one he engaged +with, 16,272; an impression exists that indebted men have the best +chance of being engaged--cannot say if it is true, 16,280, 16,281; +at the end of one year he had a balance against him--he sailed next +year under another merchant, and found that the account had been +transferred to the new agent's books, 16,299. + +GATHERER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 391), is collector +of customs at Lerwick; strongly condemns the truck system, +15,866; before 1867 wages of men from Greenland fishery were +seldom paid at the Customhouse, 15,871; and in almost every case +the men ran large accounts, 15,872; this system he believes was +actually illegal, 15,881; and was only carried on because the +agents desired a profit on the men's supplies, 15,885; since 1867 +men have received full payment in cash at the Custom-house, +15,892; but there is much delay in payment, 15,893; does not +believe this arises so much from the men's reluctance (15,894), as +the agent's unwillingness to have a settlement, 15,896; though the +regulations are outwardly observed, the agents still continue to +have a virtual security for their accounts, and agents admit that +their main inducement to accept the agency is the profit to be got +on supplies to the men, 15,898; thinks young men could get their +outfits without the help of the agents, 15,910; as any merchant +would give a seaman credit if he knew the agent did not enjoy a +monopoly of giving supplies, 15,914. + +GAUNSON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 215), fisherman +in Fetlar and tenant of land, 8861; does not know if men in Fetlar +are at liberty to fish--gets a good price from Messrs. Hay, and +never inquired, 8862; generally has a balance in his favour at the +end of the season, 8869; always got money or goods as he wanted, +8869; sells farm produce and cattle as he pleases, 8872, 8874; +goods at store are good and reasonable, 8887; does not think men +are bound to fish, 8894; hosiery, 8896. + +GEORGESON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 295), +merchant at Bayhall in the parish of Walls, 12,026; for +twenty-seven years, 12,027; principally deals with fishermen and +farmers for ready money, 12,028; no men are bound to fish for +him--he supplies his fishers with goods, and settles yearly, 12,029; +does not do much barter, 12,037; eggs looked on as money, +12,038; never pays for hosiery in cash, 12,039; there is no profit, +and sometimes a loss on it, 12,041; men commonly cure their own +fish, 12,056; and sell them as they choose, 12,057; but are +expected to take them to proprietor, 12,058; could not get men to +fish for him, because they considered themselves tied to landlord, +12,080; in ling fishing the price was, thirty years since, fixed at the +beginning of the season, but the practice died out, 12,090; at that +time men were all free, 12,091; thinks the price of green fish +should be fixed at the beginning of season, 12,104; it is an +understanding amongst men that they shall buy their goods where +they sell their fish, 12,112; men curing for themselves are more to +be relied on as customers at his shop, and are more persevering, +12,135; people in Shetland are very temperate, 12,148. + +GEORGESON, Ross (analysis of his evidence, p. 412), is skipper +of a Faroe smack, lives in Scalloway, 16,310; has gone to Faroe +fishing for 15 or 16 years, 16,312; lately in the employment of Mr. +Leask, 16,311; has always had an account with Mr. Leask when in +his smacks, 16,314; gets the balance that is due in cash, 16,321; +and advances throughout year, 16,322; would get payment in cash +in full if he wished it, 16,328; banks his money with Mr. Leask, +16,330; never knew of men not taking goods from agent, 16,340. + +GIFFORD, Francis (analysis of his evidence, p. 391), seaman in +Bressay, 15,488; goes to sealing and whaling, 15,489; under +various agents, 15,490; is now paid at the Custom-house, 15,491; +previously settled with agent at his shop, 15,492; got balance +sometimes in cash, 15,500; has his account read [Page 443] over +to him now before going to the Custom-house, and on leaving pays +it, 15,515, 15,516; thinks agents like to re-engage men who are +indebted to them, 15,222. + +GIFFORD, Mrs. Margaret Smith or (analysis of her evidence, p. +410), lives in Lerwick, 16,203; knits haps, 16,204; for Mr. Sinclair, +16,205; sold the last for 6s. in goods, 16,209; in buying articles +occasionally for cash, has found no difference in prices, 16,214. + +GIFFORD, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 197), is factor on +the estate of Busta, 8077; the largest in Shetland, 8078; very few +tenants have leases, 8083; they are free to fish, 8084; there is no +opposition to the opening of shops, 8097; knows of no +arrangement by which merchants become bound for the debts of +men on hiring them, 8126; but there was one formerly, 8127; sales +of cattle, 8130-8134; marking and selling of cattle for debt, 8135; +not common, but is practised, 8136; believes short settlements +would be beneficial to the character of the people, 8147; but does +not think they would be practicable, 8149; the payment of hosiery +in goods is a bad system, 8156. + +GILBERTSON, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 230), +fisherman and tenant at Harra, Mid Yell, 9553; is free to fish, +9555; generally deals with merchant for whom he fishes, 9557; in +some cases payment at an earlier time in the season would be an +advantage, 9569; never knew fish-curer refuse money for payment +of rent, 9572; thinks weekly payment would be an advantage, as +they would keep men from incurring debt, and enable them to go +to the best market, 9579; goods are dearer at merchant's store, +9583. + +GILBERTSON, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 111), is a +fisherman at Dunrossness, 4497; corroborates Wm. Goudie (p. +105), 4502; although a lodger with his brother-in-law, is bound +to fish for landlord, 4508; because his brother-in-law would be +warned if he did not, 4509; if at liberty he could make a larger +profit, 4516, 4517; prices at the store are higher, 4542. +-(recalled, p. 117). Was at Fair Isle three weeks previously, 4729; +and heard great complaints there of the high prices charged at the +store, 4734. + +GILBERTSON, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 333), sailor +and post-office keeper at Virkie, near Sumburgh, 13,403; men in +neighbourhood are bound to fish for tacksmen, and most of them +deal at store, 13,404; they are not compelled, unless by want of +cash, 13,405; has purchased goods at store, 13,407; quality +variable, prices higher than at other places, 13,408; men are afraid +to give evidence before commissioner, 13,421; their principal +complaints are that the settlement is made too late in the season, +and that they have not liberty, 13,425; men 43 years ago were +bound to fish, and the fish were so badly managed that they only +got about 3s. 11d. per cwt. for them--men were then freed on +payment of 15s. per head of liberty money, 13,430; in 1860 men +were again bound, 13,431. + +GOODLAD, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 414), is a +seaman in Lerwick, 16,389; requires to deal with sealing and +whaling agent, as his half-pay notes are not sufficient to maintain +his family, and no one but the agent will give him credit, 16,390; +has endeavoured to obtain credit from other dealers, 16,394; and +has generally been refused, 16,395; and told that he should take his +goods from the agent from whom he got his ship, 16,405; men +generally deal with agent if they think his goods are cheap and +good; but if not, they take advances and buy elsewhere, 16,413; +looks over his account with merchant before going to the +Custom-house for payment, and settles on coming back, 16,417, +16,418. + +GOODLAD, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 24), fisherman in +Burra, and tenant, 1179; corroborates previous witnesses, 1181, +1182; goes to Faroe fishing, 1183; his family is supplied by his +agent in his absence, 1188; but cannot easily get money, 1191; +knitting, 1201; paid in goods, 1202; knitters cannot get money, +1202-1204; the people are so poor that merchants have complete +power over them, 1206; Faroe fishing system, 1214-1217. + +GOUDIE, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 124), fisherman and +tenant at Garth, 5032; corroborates James Flawes (p.121), 5034; +meal, 5044; is dearer at store than elsewhere, 5045; tobacco also +dearer, 5053. + +GOUDIE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 105), fisherman at +Toab, 4255; obliged to fish for landlord, 4256; never knew of fines +being imposed, 4274; no obligation as to any produce other than +fish, 4279, 4280; price is fixed at settlement, 4283; is not bound to +deal with merchant, but is compelled by the present system, 4298, +4299; the quality of store articles is good, but they are dear, 4313- +4317; price of meal, 4316-4332; never had a pass-book, 4337; +under the present system men have an advantage in bad seasons, +4363; boys are obliged to act as beach boys, 4367-4369; whales +driven ashore by men, 4405; complains that a third of the oil is +appropriated by the landlord, 4406; thinks the men should have +liberty and leases of their lands, 4413, 4414; and that it would +benefit men to let them cure for themselves, 4424. + +GRAY, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 253), mason at +Bailiasta, 10,412; worked formerly in chromate of iron quarries, +10,413; wages paid in cash, 10,419; has heard of men getting lines, +10,424; does not know what for, 10,426-10,428. + +GRAY, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 262), is a fisherman to +Mr. Sandison, 10,751; at Snarravoe, 10,752; but for his assistance, +would have been starved in two bad seasons, 10,753; gets cash +when he asks it, but cannot ask much, as he is indebted, 10,763, +10,764. + +GREEN, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 145), is a +boat-skipper, 5845; fishes at Stenness, 5846; delivers fish to +dealer, 5847; corroborates the evidence of Mr. Adie (p. 138), 5850, +5851; does not think a shorter settlement would be an advantage, +5853; deals at merchant's store, 5856; goods not dearer than at +other shops, 5862-5864. + +GREIG, Clementina (analysis of her evidence, p. 283), lives at +Braehead, Scalloway, with her sister, 11,527; has supported herself +by knitting for a very long time, 11,529; never got any money for +hosiery, except in sales to visitors, 11,531; always uses her own +wool, 11,532; merchants pay insufficient prices, 11,533; even in a +great emergency could not get money from merchant, 11,535; +merchant will only sell worsted for money, 11,545; has offered to +take a lower price for hosiery in money, but could not get it, +11,555; women occasionally exchange goods for provisions, +11,559. + +GREIG, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 170), is manager +for Hay & Co. at North Roe, 7100; fishermen hold their land on +the understanding that they fish for dealer, 7111; tenants fishing +for other curers not punished, 7119; never knew a man leave +employment because of being indebted, 7167; kelp, 7176-7179; +purchase of boats, 7208-7211; winter fishing, 7212-7227; cattle, +7228; marking of cattle for debt, 7235-7238; sales of cattle, 7248; +are conducted on perfectly fair principles, 7253-7255; increase of +paupers, 7272. + +GRIERSON, Andrew John (analysis of his evidence, p. 379), is +proprietor of the estate of Quendale, 15,048; and fish-curer for +eleven years, 15,049; Mr. Ogilvy Jamieson keeps his shop at +Quendale for supply of fishermen and neighbours, 15,050; hires +no boats--men have their own, 15,053; tenants in Sandsting are +perfectly free, so long as they pay their rents, 15,060; men at +Quendale hold their ground under obligation to fish, 15,061; they +are satisfied, 15,062; thinks that it is beneficial for tenants if the +landlord is a good business man, 15,064; rents would be raised if +men were not bound to deliver their fish, 15,065; men salting their +own fish would turn out a useless and inferior article, and would +still depend for supplies and for a market upon the merchant, and it +would only encourage a system of dishonesty, 15,068; men having +liberty are generally more deeply in debt than others, 15,071; a +ready money system would not keep them out of debt, 15,078; if +cash payment for fish were enforced by law, men would likely +wish to revert to the old system, 15,081; men will not stick to a +bargain, 15,082; men are not so poor as represented, and often +have deposits in banks, 15,090; has sometimes exacted liberty +money, 15,100; expects sons of tenants to serve on beach, 15,102; +cannot understand how small dealers can give a price for fish +higher than the current one, 15,103; fishermen are very difficult to +deal with, 15,106. + +HALCROW, Jane (analysis of her evidence, p. 103), lives in +Sandwick, 4166; knits for Mr. R. Linklater with his wool, 4167; is +paid in goods, 4168; once asked but never got money, 4169, 4170 +she could get goods cheaper at other houses, 4173-4186. + +HALCROW, Jane (analysis of her evidence, p. 178), lives at +Hillswick with her mother, 7418; who is a widow, 7419; and. +tenant of land, 7420; knits, 7425; is paid generally in goods, 7430; +gets a little money and stamps, 7431; would prefer, but never +asked, payment in cash, 7436; eggs, 7448; are paid for in cash if +asked, 7449; tea, 7452. + +HALCROW, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 324), fisherman at +Levenwick and tenant under Mr. Bruce,. 13,080; formerly bound +to fish for Robert Mouat, 13,082; the articles at his store were bad +and overpriced, 13,085; most men were bound to deal with him, +13,088; and to take all their farm produce to him, 13,089; had to +deal because they could not get money, 13,090; he gave money for +cattle but very seldom otherwise, 13,091 - [Page 444] 13,093; at +settlement he would not pay money, 13,102; paid rent to Mouat +two years in advance, and when he failed had to pay it again, 13,105. + +HALCROW, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 392), seaman, +15,546; goes on sealing and whaling voyages, 15,547; generally +gets his outfit from the agent he engages with, 15,549; on one +occasion could not get balance and an allowance from the +Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund in cash, 15,552-15,568; corroborates +Francis Gifford (p. 391), 15,585; men indebted get a ship more +readily, 15,587. + +HALCROW, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 115), fisherman +and tenant at Dunrossness, 4646; is bound to deliver his fish to +landlord, 4647; corroborates William Goudie (p. 105), 4647-4649; +knitting--thinks that to some knitters payment in cash would be an +advantage, while to others goods are better, 4650; when new +tacksman came to Dunrossness, notice was given by a bill in a +public place that men were bound to fish for him, and would be +removed if they did not, 4559, 4560; goods are somewhat dearer at +fish-curer's store, 4662-4668; but there is no obligation to deal +there, 4671; and men have freedom in disposing of their farm +stock, 4673-4683; short warning is a great hardship, 4688; does +not think payment for fish on delivery would be an advantage +except to young men, 4692; meal is dearer at store than elsewhere, +4706-4718. + +HARCUS, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 288), is a small +merchant in Scalloway, 11,782; deals with fishermen, but does not +buy fish, 11,783; does not give credit, 11,784; his trade would be +improved by the introduction of a cash system, 11,786; his weekly +drawings are larger at settlement time, 11,794; does not think +weekly or monthly payments would be practicable, 11,797; buys +lobsters and oysters, and pays in cash, 11,800-11,803; hosiery is a +bad speculation, 11,824; has tried the plan of giving meal for it, +and found he had no profit, 11,824; hosiery should be paid in cash, +11,826; settlements in Shetland take a long time, owing to the +men's ignorance of arithmetic, 11,833-11,836; when whales are +drawn ashore by the men, one-third of the oil is taken by the +landlord--thinks this unfair, 11,856-11,860. In letter afterwards +sent to commissioner, says (p. 290) that he is in favour of short +settlements, even if for no other reason than that they would +benefit his trade; but thinks them impracticable at present owing to +the distance of the fishing grounds from the curers' headquarters, +and time would be lost which the crews could not afford to lose. +The ignorance of men in arithmetic would also be a hindrance. + +HARPER, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 252), is a fisherman +to Spence & Co. at Norwick, 10,384; and tenant, 10,385; two +prices are charged at store for cash and credit, 10,393, 10,394; +was a skipper under another dealer formerly, and changed his +employment because he was made to believe that he was obliged +to work for his landlord, 10,402; finds now that he was not bound +by his lease, 10,402; but was threatened indirectly at the time, +10,405. + +HARPER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 113), is a fisherman at +Lingord, 4573; and tenant of land, 4574; is bound to deliver his +fish, 4575; corroborates William Goudie (p. 105), Laurence Smith +(p. 110), and Henry Gilbertson (p. 111), 4576, 4577; men would +like liberty to cure their own fish, 4584; thinks they would make a +larger profit, 4588-4603; states that men are obliged to work for +landlord three days in summer, three in harvest, and three in +spring, in all nine days annually, without receiving either pay or +victual, 4605. + +HARRISON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 187), is a +merchant at Urrafirth, Hillswick, 7657; deals in groceries, 7661; +and cotton, 7662; had some difficulty in obtaining leave to open a +shop, 7664; does a small business in curing and drying fish, 7673; +and has shop to supply men, 7675; fish-merchants commonly take +over the debts of men who leave other employers to come to them, +7751. + +HARRISON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 415), is a merchant +in Lerwick, and partner of Harrison & Son, 16,427; has had long +experience in the Faroe fishing business, 16,428; and a little of +the ling fishing, 16,429; his firm has no connection with the +management of any land or property, 16,430; men who wished to +engage with him have been prevented by their landlords or +tacksmen, 16,433; men are bound entirely to landlord for both +home and Faroe fishings, and young men dare not disobey the +landlord, because their parents would be ejected if they did, +16,437; men free of debt and with money are bound equally with +indebted men, 16,440; believes that he and his firm have been the +most successful owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade, and +that this is because all the men they employ are free, 16,445; +indebted men are not the best fishermen, 16,448; it is not +advantageous for a merchant to have a great number of debtors, +16,449; the principal evil of Shetland is the system of land tenure, +by which no man has a lease, 16,461; and which binds men to fish, +16,463; thinks fish should be paid for on delivery, at the market +price, 16,467; the letting of beaches is not legal, 16,471; the +introduction of a cash system might cause difficulty at first, but +the result would be a great increase in the fisheries, and the +emancipation of the men, 16,477; Shetland fishermen have a great +advantage in possessing pieces of ground which support them +for at least six months per year, 16,478; were cash payments +introduced, men would have much more facility in getting goods +at the lowest possible price, 16,481; men have a fear that the +introduction of a cash system would deprive them of the means of +support in a bad season, 16,482; and this very probably kept men +from coming forward to give evidence, 16,483; thinks that so long +as landlords and tacksmen are engaged in the fishery, any system +of cash payments will do little good, 16,489; in the Faroe trade +believes that the owners would agree to a settlement at the end +of each voyage, but that the men would not, 16,493; and that a +settlement at the end of the season is an advantage to them, +16,494; men invariably take a part, at least, of their supplies from +the curer who employs them, 16,506; they have no alternative +unless they have cash, and men even with it generally take their +supplies from the merchant, 16,507. + +HARRISON, William B. M. (analysis of his evidence, p. 395), is +a partner of Harrison & Sons, 15,705; engaged extensively in the +Faroe fishing trade, 15,706; terms of agreement in that fishery, +15,707; men mostly deal at shop, 15,720; there are very few who +do not have a balance to receive at settlement, 15,721; men who +have money prefer to take goods on credit, 15,724; men in home +fishing are not allowed credit above a certain sum, 15,732; the +introduction of a cash system would be an advantage more to the +curers than to men, 15,745; but there would be no difficulty in +working it after it was once fairly introduced, 15,749; would pay +men weekly in full according to the market, 15,751; men have +been asked to agree to such an arrangement, but will not, 15,752; +curer would not be able to make any advances in bad seasons, +15,760; does not think a system of partial payment on delivery and +a yearly settlement of the remainder of the price would be fair for +the curer, 15,762; curers are paid entirely in cash, 15,770; are not +given credit 15,771; this plan is not practised by other agents, +15,772. + +HAY, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 132), fisherman at Firth, +about a mile from Mossbank, 5335; and tenant, 5336; fishes for +Mr. Adie in ling fishing, 5337; paid current rate at the end of the +season, 5339; settlement at Martinmas, 5341; Mr. Adie's nearest +store is 71/2 miles distant, 4344; generally goes there for his goods, +not because he is bound to do so, 4345; but simply because it has +been his custom, 4346; never refused advances of cash, 5372; +would prefer to have a price fixed at the beginning of the season, +5377. + +HAY, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 255), formerly a +merchant at Haroldswick, is now a farmer, 10,519; cured fish, +10,520; preferred a ready money business, 10,522; found it very +difficult to deal so because of the general custom, 10,526; believes +if once started it would be a benefit, 10,527; monthly payments +would make men more independent, 10,528; thinks the condition +of the people much improved lately, 10,544; and men are generally +free to fish now, 10,551. + +HENDERSON, Isabella (analysis of her evidence, p. 285), lives +in Scalloway with her father and sister, 11,624; she and her sister +support the family by knitting, 11,626; sells veils to merchants +for goods, 11,631; cannot get money, 11,634; has often had to +exchange goods for provisions, or sell lines, 11,637. + +HENDERSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 136), fisherman +at Mossbank, 5502; not bound to fish unless going to the Skerries, +5504; fishes for Mr. Pole, 5505; deals very little at his store, 5507; +is not obliged to go there, 5509; goods are rather dearer there, +5513; would like a system of payment on delivery, 5532. + +HENDERSON, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 239), is a +small proprietor near Haroldswick, 9918; once engaged in fishing, +9920; men generally fish for landlord, 9924; fishermen generally +deal with merchant, 9930; but are not compelled, 9931; debts are +very often transferred to the books of new employers, 9940; cash +payments would benefit some men, not others, 9945; thinks the +fishermen would not be much in favour of having a price fixed at +the beginning of the season, 9951; does not think they would agree +to [Page 445] weekly wages, 9952; a ready money system would +be an improvement, 9974. + +HENDERSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 315), is a +fisherman and farmer in Skerries, 12,732; and bound to fish for +Mr. Adie, 12,734; was told so by landlord's agent, 12,736; deals +at the landlord's store and settles yearly, 12,739; gets money when +he wishes, 12,740; may deal elsewhere if he has money, 12,742; +would prefer liberty in fishing, 12,750; goods are dearer at +Skerries than Lerwick, 12,756; cattle are generally sold to +landlord, 12,758. + +HENDERSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 318), is a son +of Gavin Henderson, merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness, +12,831; and manages his business, 12,832; deals in drapery, +groceries, ironmongery, coal, timber, etc., 12,835; deals a little in +hosiery and eggs, 12,836; buys fish, principally in winter, 12,839; +he gives men credit for goods, but does not like to do so, as fish is +the only security they can give, and they are bound or engaged to +fish for others, 12,856-12,859; he generally pays winter fishing in +cash on delivery, 12,879; or gives an I.O.U., or puts the amount +to their account, 12,881; the price of summer fishing should be +fixed at the beginning of the season, or from time to time, +12,885-12,887; but weekly payments should not be made, 12,888; +there is not much fish smuggled, 12,908; buys hosiery for cash, +12,913; knitters are willing to take a lower price in cash, 12,915; +goods bartered by merchants to knitters are very much overpriced, +12,917; eggs paid in goods or cash as wished, 12,928. +-(recalled, p. 332). Explains, with reference to statement that in +buying fish he paid for it on delivery, that in some cases accounts +are settled annually at the end of the winter or spring fishings, +13,340. + +HERRING Fishery, 879, 981, 1002, 1135, 3880, 8154, 8605, +8630, 10,336, 10,563, 14,108, 15,194, 15,740, 16,945. + +HOME Fishing, 1208, 5594, 6901, 6940, 10,512, 10,912, +11,909. + +HOSIERY, Statements as to the sale of, 71, 221,306, 368, 764, +898, 1077, 1084, 1201, 1366, 1420, 1476, 1562, 1608, 1648, 1698, +1729, 1848, 1902, 1941, 1969, 1973, 2030, 2075, 2120, 2370, +2667, 2770, 2824, 2906, 3059, 3215, 3246, 3310, 3418, 3445, +3451, 3497, 3568, 3612, 3900, 4094, 4140, 4167, 4201, 4650, +5093, 5176, 5741, 5962, 6004, 6136, 6297, 6342, 6444, 6641, +6852, 7291, 7425, 8033, 8156, 8163, 8254, 8309, 8488, 8896, +8971, 9052, 9401, 9547, 9714, 9731, 9793, 10,182, 10,306, +10,449, 11,227, 11,463, 11,529, 11,564, 11,587, 11,626, 11,672, +11,684, 11,757, 11,824, 11,895, 11,997, 12,038, 12,217, 12,295, +12,346, 12,836, 12,913, 12,963, 13,814, 14,036, 14,281, 14,291, +14,697, 15,335, 15,360, 15,785, 15,921, 16,010, 16,040, 16,070, +16,084, 16,094, 16,128, 16,130, 16,136, 16,204, 16,657, 16,658. +16,660, 17,015. +-No profit on, 2199, 2523, 2758, 2793, 2842, 2921, 3088, 3312, +3584, 3900, 5743, 6645, 7314, 9402, 11,824, 12,041, 12,463, +12,923,16,658. +-Payment of, in goods, and complaints as to, 81, 160, 229, 238, +352, 355, 377, 764, 1078, 1174, 1202, 1370, 1439, 1480, 1522, +1586, 1616, 1652, 1704, 1754, 1855, 1947, 2127, 2671, 2771, +2827, 3458, 3501, 3575, 4102, 4142, 4168, 4206, 5093, 5193, +5742, 6138, 6346, 6448, 6642, 6854, 7294, 7430, 8156, 8314, +9549, 9746, 9797, 10,200, 10,308, 11,227, 11,464, 11,531, 11,590, +11,631, 11,674, 11,898, 12,038, 14,039, 15,364, 15,786, 16,066, +16,097, 16,657, 16,660. +-Money obtained for, 8, 312, 316, 1566, 1674, 1708, 1759, 1856, +1906, 1951, 1972, 1998, 2040, 2079, 2373, 3421, 4111, 3593, +11,688, 12,913, 15,363, 16,065, 16,080, 17,026. +-Payment in cash preferred, 29, 1581, 1630, 1675, 1809, 1924, +3511, 4103, 4173, 4210, 6006, 7437, 11,826, 16,103. +-Price fixed by merchant, 9, 421, 1091, 1440, 1617. + +HOUSTON, John S. (analysis of his evidence, p. 233), is parochial +schoolmaster at North Yell, 9653; fishermen are suspicious that +merchants do not give them a sufficiently high price, 9670; does +not think justifiably, 9673; does not see that men would be +benefited by any alterations in present system of payment for fish, +9676; settlement should be earlier, 9679, 9680; but thinks +fishermen would be dissatisfied, 9682; marking and sale of cattle +for debt is still practised, 9690; fish-curer have very little profit, +9698; the condition of Shetland is much improved, 9709; the +present system of hosiery dealings is bad, 9714; high price is +charged for goods, 9715. + +HUGHSON, Hugh (analysis of his evidence, p. 231), is a merchant +at Gossaburgh, 9585; cures a few fish, 9586; buys for ready +money, 9587; thinks a ready money system would be an +advantage, 9592; long credit is a great evil, 9596; but a cash +system might be bad for poor men, 9599; advances are necessary, +9600. + +HUGHSON, Mrs. Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 155), wife +of fisherman and tenant of land in Hillswick, 6338; her husband is +also a labourer, 6340; hosiery is always paid in goods, 6346; never +asked cash, 6347; kelp, 6353; paid in goods, 6371. + +HUMPHRAY, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 316), is +a fisherman in Skerries, 12,797; lives with his father, who is a +tenant, 12,798; fishes for Mr. Adie, 12,799; men are obliged to fish +for him, 12,800; there is a merchant in Skerries who would give a +higher price for fish, but men dare not sell them to him, 12,800; +beach boys are expected to take out their fees in goods, 12,813; +interest at five per cent. is charged on debts, 12,821; goods at store +are overpriced, 12,826. + +HUTCHISON, Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 31), lives in +Lerwick, 1561; knits, 1562; with her own wool, 1563; sends her +articles to a dealer in Edinburgh, 1564; and is paid in cash, 1566; +acts as his agent (1565), employing women to knit, supplying +wool, and paying in ready money, 1569-1575; women prefer +this system, 1581; sometimes sells shawls at a shop, 1586; and +gets a line or I.O.U., 1589; often buys these from knitters to +accommodate them, 1592, 1593. + +HUTCHISON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 313), is a +fisherman and tenant in Skerries, 12,616; under Mr. Bruce, 12,617; +pays rent to Mr. Adie, and fishes for him, 12,618-12,620; is bound +to do so, 12,621; under penalty of eviction, 12,625; never knew of +a man having offended, 12,626; men are obliged to deal at curer's +store, because of their want of money, 12,636; are put on an +allowance if they have exceeded their credit, 12,641-12,643; the +price of goods at the store is much higher than elsewhere, 12,658; +is obliged to sell farm produce at the merchant's store, 12,689; men +fined for going to Greenland fishing, 12,698; fathers are ejected +for their sons' misdemeanours, 12,706; this, however, refers rather +to a former state of matters, as there are no fines imposed now, and +farm produce can be sold to any one at discretion, 12,713, 12,726. +-(recalled, p. 316). Got £17, 19s. by summer fishing last year, +12,767; that sum is about as much as any other man would get, +12,768. + +IMMORALITY and prostitution fostered by the system of +paying for hosiery with goods, 14,711. + +INDEBTEDNESS, Connection with long settlements, 5234, +5653, 5981, 6537, 7475, 7937, 8564, 10,538. +-General statements as to, 5998, 6512, 6875, 7174, 7354, 7475, +8017, 10,925, 10,957, 11,076, 12,306, 12,821, 13,808, 14,172, +14,302. +-Impossible to keep men clear in a bad year, 3623, 3793, 6274. +-the great trouble of merchants, 3623, 5148, 8016, 12,295. + +INDEBTED Men bound to fish for curer, 3852, 5554, 5829, +6092, 7010, 7054, 8695. +-Allowances to. <See> Allowances, etc. +-Generally change employer, 6822, 6875, 7354, 10,957, 16,566. +-Merchants prefer to re-engage, 15,522, 15,587, 15,629, +16,280. + +INKSTER, Mrs. Ann Leask or (analysis of her evidence, p. 286), +lives in Scalloway, 11,671; knits for Mr. Sinclair, 11,672; is paid +in money by strangers, 11,673; but never by dealers--never asked +for cash, 11,674· + +INKSTER, Daniel (analysis of his evidence, p. 373), is a seaman, +living in Lerwick for two years past, previously in the North Isles +under Mr. Walker, 14,814; has been at sealing, and whaling, and +the ling fishing for a number of years, 14,815; was ejected by Mr. +Walker, 14,816; because he could not pay his rent, although he +took his crops and sold them, and put him in danger of starving- +this is commonly done, 14,820; settlement of whaling voyages +made in full, 14,839; men are not obliged, or even told, to go and +settle their shop accounts, 14,841; goods are as cheap at agent's. +store as elsewhere, 14,860; has had allowance from Shipwrecked +Mariners' Fund, and got it in cash from agent, 14,863-14,865. + +INTEREST charged on debts, 12,821. + +IRVINE, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 335), is a fisherman +at Garthbanks, on the Quendale estate, 13,485; hands in a +document, signed by twenty-eight men on that property, stating +they are honourably dealt with by Mr. A. J. Grierson, their present +landlord, and desire to continue to fish for him, 13,486; has fished +for thirteen years to Mr. Grierson, 13,487; and has always been +paid the currency, 13,489; could not have got a higher price, +13,490; wrote the document handed in himself, on previous night, +13,493; of his own accord, 13,494; men were quite willing to sign +it, and more would have signed it if they had been asked, [Page +446] 13,499; deals at store, 13,507; is paid in cash at settlement, +13,508; is satisfied with the price and quality of store goods, +13,519. + +IRVINE, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 324), is shopkeeper +at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce, jun., 13,127; men on Sumburgh +estate are understood to be bound to fish for landlord, but some do +not, 13,130; tenants are reproved, but, he thinks, never ejected for +selling fish to another merchant, 13,141; settlements are made +yearly, 13,159; balance is always paid in cash, 13,161; men +indebted, or who have been indebted, are only allowed to take a +certain quantity of meal weekly from store, 13,179-13,181; price +of cotton, 13,200; tobacco, 13,204; store is only kept for the +accommodation of fishermen, 13,208; there is no profit on it, +13,209; men's rents are lower, because they are expected to fish, +13,253, 13,254. + +IRVINE, Janet (analysis of her evidence, p. 3), supports herself by +knitting and working in a fish-curing establishment, 71, 72; gets +money when she wishes from one dealer, but cannot from any +other, 81-90; is paid in money at fish-curing establishment--deals +at shop kept by fish-curer, but is not obliged, 120-148. + +IRVINE, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 390), broker and +general dealer in Lerwick, 15,469; deals also in provisions to a +small extent, 15,470; deals mostly with men, buys and sells +clothes, 15,472, 15,476; seldom deals with knitters, 15,479. + +IRVINE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 83), partner of Hay +& Co., merchants in Lerwick, 3619; Hay & Co. have curing +stations in several parts of the islands, and manage four estates, +two as factors and two as lessees, 3623; the tenants on one of the +first are free to fish where they choose, and dispose of all their +produce as they please, <ib>.; on the other they are also free +(excepting the island of Whalsay and Whalsay Skerries), and +to dispose of their produce as they please, <ib>.; balances paid +in cash, and people are well-to-do and not in debt; Shetland +fishermen not ignorant and uneducated; many have sailed to all +parts of the world, and now that communication is so much more +frequent and easy with the Mainland, they are much better +informed, and goods have very much increased in value; fishermen +are charged for goods the same price as the public pay in ready +money; carpenters and tradesmen employed by Hay & Co. are paid +in cash weekly: at the Burra Islands have two curing stations; +fishermen are paid regular prices, and the tenants have complete +liberty in the sale of their produce; there is no shop on the island, +and men get supplies from our stores at Lerwick and Scalloway; +in bad seasons credit is given to the men, on one occasion the +island being indebted to the amount of £1000: in Faroe fishing, +crews are engaged on shares; fish salted on board, and landed at +curing stations wet, <ib>.; fishings of all kinds succeed best when +men are paid by shares; when paid monthly wages they have no +inducement to work, and the season being short, the utmost +activity is necessary, <ib>.; Shetland fishermen are, on the whole, +better off than many of the same class in other parts of the +kingdom, <ib>.; the profit of curers on fish is very small; bad +debts are a great drawback; a ready money system would be +scarcely possible to carry out; it would, entail an additional +expense on merchants, which, with their small profits, they could +ill afford; small traders would be driven out of the market, and the +fishermen would eventually suffer, <ib>.; the statements made +before the Truck Commission in Edinburgh were very absurd, +especially one to the effect that a merchant would not thrive unless +he accumulated a great quantity of bad debts; thinks the fishing +trade as it is cannot be altered for the better, and that any Act +of Parliament interfering with it will only have the effect of +destroying it, 3623; dealing at store is optional, 3640; there has +never been any application made for permission to open another +shop in Whalsay, 3642, 3648; does not know if such an application +would be granted, 3649; does not think fishermen employed by +him ever smuggle away fish, 3655; system of book-keeping, +3668-3673; settlements are generally over by the end of the year, +3688; markets for fish, 3698, 3699; prices paid by curers are +generally the same, 3708-3710; large deposits are made in bank +by men, 3735, 3736; written obligation given by Burra men eight +years ago, but never acted on, 3750-3754; it is only in the home +fishing that men are bound to deliver their fish, 3764; payment of +monthly wages has been agreed to and afterwards repudiated by +men, 3833; purchase of boats, 3839-3847; to permit debts is a +bad system, 3877; herring fishery, 3880; weekly settlements +impossible, 3896; hosiery trade yields, no profit, 3900; does +not think a much higher price is charged for goods by hosiery +merchants, 3909; men curing their own fish, 3943; would not do it +so well, and so would get a smaller price, 3746; Mouat, 3948; +oyster fishing, 3970, 3981; shops not permitted in Burra, because +of the sale of tea and excisable goods, 3971, 3972; Greenland +whale fishery, 3991; monthly notes, 4016-4078; Greenland fishers +seldom indebted, 4054. + +JAMIESON, Andrew B. (analysis of his evidence, p. 353), clerk +to Mr. Leask for nineteen years, 14,161; principally concerned in +settlements with seamen employed in the Greenland whale fishery, +14,163; men at settlement, before the system of payment at the +Customhouse, paid the balance due them, and besides got cash +during the currency of their account if they wanted, 14,166; men +are seldom indebted to the full amount of their wages, 14,172; and +those who are, are young hands, 14,173; now the whole money is +paid to the men, and sometimes they return at once to the clerk the +amount of their accounts, 14,209; or they come down to the shop +immediately after settlement, 14,212; men have never failed to pay +their accounts, 14,221; except in one single instance, 14,222; no +compulsion is exercised--the men go of their own accord, 14,249. + +JAMIESON, Andrew B. (recalled, p. 357). States with regard to +the accountant of the Board of Trade's report, that he considers it +unjust to the agents in the Greenland trade--concurs generally in +the statements of Mr. William Robertson, (p. 265), 14,293; men +are not generally indebted to the amount of the money due them, +14,302; excepting in bad voyages, when young hands are generally +in debt, 14,303; families of men commonly have a weekly +allowance, 14,311; men not obliged to take their outfits from the +store, 14,316; knows no case of sums allowed by the Shipwrecked +Mariners' Society being retained for payment of a man's account, +14,349; it would only be done with the man's concurrence, 14,370. + +JAMIESON, Arthur Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 193), +Was employed by commissioner to purchase articles at store of +Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 7946; got and delivered certain +articles to clerk, 7947. + +JAMIESON, Geo. (analysis of his evidence, p. 389), farmer and +fisherman at North Roe, on Busta estate, 15,400; formerly was +under Messrs. Hay--was suspended from fishing for four years, +because he refused to go in a boat with some old men, 15,402; +other fish-curers were prevented by them from hiring him, 15,403; +keeps two paupers--has for one £8, and for the other £3, 10s. per +annum--money is paid through Mr. Greig, who refuses payment of +more than a trifle in money, 15,406; is told that he must take a part +in truck, 15,442; is refused expenses for attending as witness +before commissioner, 15,468. + +JAMIESON, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 350), lives +in Quarff, 14,035; knits and dresses, 14,036; purchases wool for +herself, 14,037; cannot get payment in cash--has been refused the +sum of one halfpenny, 14,039; gets wool in exchange for tea, or +clothes, or hosiery, 14,053; merchants often have no money in +their shops, 14,042. + +JAMIESON, Ogilvy (analysis of his evidence, p. 332), shopkeeper +to Mr. Grierson at Quendale, 13,348; overseer, 13,349; and +bookkeeper, 13,350; beach boys paid by fees, 13,353; a condition +of holding is that the tenants shall supply boys when they have +them suitable, 13,361; men buying boats get advances from dealer, +13,399. + +JOHNSTONE, Mrs. Agnes Malcolmson or (analysis of her +evidence, p. 104), lives in Lerwick, 4200; knits and sells to +merchant, 4201, 4202; is paid in goods, 4205; never got money, +excepting on one occasion sixpence, 4206; would prefer money, +4210; would take a lower price in cash, 4211; as she could buy +goods cheaper at other shop, 4215; and for other reasons, 4218, +4225; never had to exchange goods for money, but knows people +who have, 4226, 4228. + +JOHNSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 374), is a tenant +and ling fisherman at Colafirth, near Ollaberry, 14,884; bound to +sell fish to factor, 14,890; thinks it would be an advantage to cure +his own fish, 14,893; merchants give a larger price for fish to free +men than bound men get, 14,894; prices at the store are higher +than they should be, 14,923, 14,928; would like liberty to sell his +fish to the highest bidder, 14,939; short settlements would be no +advantage unless men had freedom in fishing, 14,946. + +JOHNSTON, Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 7), knits for +dealer, 369; has no pass-book, 371; is paid in goods, cannot get +money, 377-379; never got a line, 411; but never asked, 412; +merchant always fixes price of goods, 421, 422; thinks them +sometimes [Page 447] too low, 423-425; cannot get wool for +work done, 449. + +JOHNSTON, Charlotte (analysis of her evidence, p. 397), lives at +Colafirth, near Ollaberry, 15,780; was seventeen years in Lerwick, +and kept lodgers and boarders, 15,781; now dresses hosiery, and +knits for Mr. Morgan Laurenson, 15,783; is always paid in goods, +15,786; runs an account, and cannot get it settled at short intervals, +15,790; different prices are charged by merchant for cash and +goods, 15,826; hands in statement from man who built a house for +her in 1863, stating that he was obliged to take payment from her +in goods, as witness could not get payment from Mr. Laurenson in +cash, 15,844; she had to give him goods for less than she got for +them, 15,845. + +JOHNSTON, Mrs. Christian (analysis of her evidence, p. 99), lives +in Muckle Roe, and is wife of former fisherman, 8162; knits and +weaves grey cloth, 8163; gets wool from merchant, spins it, gives +it to 'wabster' to be woven, and sells to merchant, the price of wool +being deducted, 8166; gets money to pay 'wabster,' 8179; some +dealers pay for it in money and some do not, 8189. + +JOHNSTON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 222), is tenant of +Mr. M'Queen at Burravoe, and fishes for Mr. Adie, 9222; formerly +tenant on Lunna estate---left because men were handed over to a +tacksman, with whom he had a dispute, and was bound to fish for +him, 9224; threatened to be ejected for not fishing, 9227; +fined for selling fish to another dealer, 9241. + +JOHNSTON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 300), is a merchant +at Bridge of Walls, Sandsting, 12,219; business is the same as that +of Mr. Georgeson, with the exception that he has a spirit and +grocery licence, 12,226; spirits are always sold for cash, 12,228; +has accounts with a number of fishermen, 12,230; buys no fish, +12,236; has no security except the personal credit of the men, +12,240; thinks men have complete liberty in fishing, 12,247. + +JOHNSTON, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 191), is a +shopkeeper at Tofts, near Mossbank, 7843; deals in tea, tobacco, +and sugar, and buys fish, 7844; cures it himself, 7845; pays in +cash, 7851; formerly at Faroe fishing, 7860; men were of opinion +that they were not always allowed a fair price, 7869; meal, 7897; +thinks long payments and credit cause improvidence, 7931. + +JOHNSTON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 248), registrar +of Baltasound, lives at Balliasta, 10,206; formerly a fisherman, +10,207; men entirely free to fish then, 10,208; has a farm now, +10,216; deals at any shop, and pays ready money, 10,217. + +JOHNSTONE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 62), merchant +in Lerwick, 2822; pays knitters generally in goods, but sometimes +gives a little money, 2827; there is often no profit, and sometimes +a loss, on hosiery, 2842-2860; would prefer cash payments, 2863; +price of goods would be reduced, 2866; does not give lines, 2875; +lines used as a currency, 2880; never heard of goods being taken +from shop and sold to obtain cash, 2896; will sell any yarn, except +Shetland yarn, for either cash or goods, 2897; merchants do not +sell it, 2899, 2990. + +KELP, 5262, 6325, 6353, 6463, 6628, 6851, 7176, 7986, +8838, 8973, 9349, 10,088, 13,293, 13,814, 14,143. + +KNITTERS, Getting of worsted by, 2897, 11,579. +Selling or bartering of goods or lines by, 236, 986, 993, 1487, +1528, 1592, 1627, 1879, 2190, 2587, 2896, 3516, 3599, 4112, +4147, 4226, 6697, 11,475, 11,559, 11,578, 11,601, 11,637, 11,698, +11,759, 11,998, 12,037, 14,053, 15,336, 15,845, 16,657. +Whether much in debt, 2350, 2378. +Amount of tea sold to, 2437, 3205, 6696,11,578, 11,764. + +LAURENSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 41), is a dealer +in hosiery in Lerwick, 2120; and partner in the oldest firm of +merchants there, 2121; buys knitted goods, and gives wool out to +be knitted, but principally the former, 2126; pays in goods, +2127-2130; the practice of barter is of long continuance in +Shetland, 2132; and that of part payment in cash very recent, +2133-2136; never refuses to give cash, 2142; advances are often +made, 2150; sometimes pays the whole value of hosiery in cash, +2168; two prices, cash and goods, 2171-2173; cash system would +prevent dealers from taking knitted work so readily as at present, +as they would then buy only what they actually required, 2177; but +yet thinks the cash system would ultimately be advantageous to all, +2179, 2204, 2248; as it would be simpler, 2180; as a general rule, +believes women cannot get cash, 2184; merchants have no profit +on hosiery, but only on the drapery goods sold to the workers, +2199; and often sell particular articles of hosiery at a loss, 2203; +system of pass-books, 2213-2241; does not give lines, 2235; wool +supply, 2288; always gives yarn for goods, 2291, 2292; but +believes some merchants do not, 2293; because they have little or +no profit on it, 2297-2312; yarn only kept by dealers for the use of +their own knitters, 2303; merchants have no hold over knitters, +2310; regular tariff of prices cannot be made, owing to the +differences of workmanship and pattern, 2327; knitters are +seldom much in debt, 2359, 2851. + +LAURENSON, Arthur (recalled, p. 406). States, with reference to +the evidence of Mr. Walker (p. 402), that he always deals with +first-class houses, 16,029. + +LAURENSON, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 414) +seaman at Mews, Dunrossness, and serves in the Naval Reserve, +16,380; has mostly gone south, 16,382; was two years at the ling +fishing, 16,384; dealt with merchant curer only for fishing +material, 16,385; had no advances, 16,386; but thinks he would +have got them if he had asked, 16,387. + +LAURENSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 237), is a +fisherman at Burrafirth, 9816; and tenant, 9817; not bound to +fish, 9819; has no pass-book, 9827; winter fish is paid on delivery +in cash and goods, 9887, 9890; thinks meal and flour at store +sometimes not very good, 9899. + +LAURENSON, Morgan (analysis of his evidence, p. 174), is a +merchant at Lochend, 7274; deals in drapery and provisions, 7275; +employs a few fishermen, 7276; deals in hosiery and pays in +goods, 7291; is seldom asked to give cash, 7295; gives lines rarely, +7299, 7300; never refused to give small sums in cash to a regular +knitter, 7304; occasionally buys special articles for cash, 7305; +giving a lower price, women unwilling to take cash, 7306; there is +no profit on hosiery, 7314; wool is very scarce, 7317; smuggling +of fish is very slightly carried on, 7336; men much indebted to +merchant often change their employer, 7354; it is not the +interest of the merchant to let debt be incurred, 7885. + +LAURENSON, Simon (analysis of his evidence, p. 10). +Corroborates Andrew Tulloch (p. 9), 542, 543; wishes freedom in +fishing, 544; does not know exactly what landlord's system is, but +knows the tenants under him are not satisfied, 547. + +LAURENSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 393), seaman +in Bressay, has been at sealing and whaling for thirty-six years, +latterly paid at Custom-house, 15,600; previously he could get no +clear account the state of his account, 15,601; corroborates Francis +Gifford (p. 391); knows that indebted men get a ship more easily +than others, 15,629. + +LEASES, 621, 800, 919, 4258, 6749, 8033, 10,156, 12,252, +14,816, 15,124. +-desirable, 4413, 6749, 8067, 16,461. +-Men cannot get, 764. + +LEASK, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 25) fisherman at +Channerwick, 1221; and yearly tenant, 1223, 1224; was bound for +the home fishing, but not for others, 1250; the price of fish was +fixed by the merchant (Robert Mouat), 1258; and paid in goods, +1276-1287; could not get money from him, 1294; sometimes sold +goods got at store to obtain money, 1290; produce of farms had to +be sold to tacksman, 1295; 1300; is now under a new merchant, +and is not so badly used, 1353, 1354; previously the people were +subjected to great tyranny, 1327-1352; knitting paid in goods, +1366; cannot get money, 1371. + +LEASK, Joseph (analysis of his evidence p. 345, is one of the +largest employers in the Faroe trade and fish-curers in Shetland, +13,822; corroborates Mr William Robertson (pp. 265, 338), +13,823; small fish-curers can only exceptionally get higher prices, +12,827. + +LEISK, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 366), is a partner of +Leisk & Sandison, merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick, +14,589; previously employed by Mr George Reid Tait, now +retired, 14,590; agrees generally with Mr. Tait (p. 363) as to the +way in which seamen are discharged and their wages paid, 14,593; +paid in cash, without any deductions even of allotments, 14,595; +allotments chiefly paid in cash, 14,605; men generally pay their +accounts on receiving their wages--only remembers one case of +defalcation, 14,628; only young hands are indebted to the full +amount of their pay, 14,634; men are free to go to any shop they +please for goods, 14,671. + +LESLIE, Adam, junior (analysis of his evidence, p. 121), +fisherman at Toab, 4877; corroborates previous witnesses as to the +holding of land and fish, 4879; has no pass-book, 4881; always +gets money if he wishes, 4885; thinks goods dearer at store, 4887. + +LESLIE, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 114), is a [Page 448] +in the fisherman at Dunrossness, 4610; and lives with his father, +who is a tenant of land, 4611; is bound to fish, 4612; corroborates +William Goudie (p. 105) and others, 4613; prices are much higher +at store, 4614; is at liberty to deal anywhere, 4627. + +LESLIE, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 126), is a fisherman +and tenant at Gord, 5122; bound to fish for sixty years past, 5127; +obligation to fish has always been part of the condition of holding +land, 5133. + +LESLIE, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 15), is a +fisherman at Lerwick, 739; corroborates Laurence Mail (p. 11), +742. + +LESLIE, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 125), fisherman, +and lives with his father, who is a tenant at Hillwill, 5072; is bound +to fish, 5077; beach boys, 5086; knitting paid in goods--tweeds +refused in exchange for hosiery, 5093. + +LEWIS, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 432), is a grocer and +wine merchant in Canongate, Edinburgh, for nearly forty years, +16,816; has examined samples sent to him, 16,818; and gives in a +report of their value, 16,819; thinks all the articles overcharged, +16,884. + +LIBERTY Money, 625, 764, 786, 1012, 1130, 1211, 4483, 4510, +4948, 5060, 8909, 12,306, 13,372, 13,430, 13,552, 15,100. + +LINES given to knitters, 248, 257, 329, 411, 1464, 1589, 1679, +1764, 1875, 1889, 1955, 1985, 2190, 2502, 2581, 2694, 2785, +2875, 3070, 3250, 3343, 3445, 3573, 3617, 4099, 6700, 7299, +9657, 9666, 9769, 9787, 10,452, 11,497, 11,637, 11,623, 12,881, +14,047, 15,812. + +LINES to day labourers, 10,424, 10,735. + +LING Fishery and price of ling, statements as to, 459, 744, 879, +2502, 3623, 6523, 9138, 9238, 9308, 9611, 11,347, 11,393, +11,909, 11,957, 12,089, 12,967, 13,645, 13,648, 13,813, 13,887, +14,885, 15,730, 16,384, 16,429, 16,466. + +LINKLATER, Hugh (analysis of his evidence, p. 64), +merchant in Lerwick, 2905; buys knitted goods, 2906; sells +drapery, 2909; corroborates Mr. Laurenson generally, 2913; deals +very little in hosiery, 2914; generally sells drapery for cash, 2918. + +LINKLATER, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 58), merchant +in Lerwick, 2666; deals in hosiery, and keeps a stock of drapery +and tea, 2667; conducts his business in a somewhat similar manner +to Mr. Robert Sinclair (p. 49), 2669; gives wool to be knitted, and +buys from knitters, 2670; pays principally in goods, 2671, 2674; +money only given exceptionally, 2675; most knitters have +pass-books, 2676; never refuses money, 2684-2692; gives no lines, +2694; money is seldom asked for, 2716; two prices for cash and +goods, 2726; gets a small profit on hosiery, 2728, 2730; it is +difficult to procure Shetland wool, 2752; does not sell it, 2753; +there is often no profit, and occasionally loss, on hosiery, 2758, +2760. + +LONG Settlements, 501, 807, 4782, 5981, 9921, 10,702, +11,891. +-Men contented with, 5853. +-Men discontented with; 693, 1409, 9596. + +M'LACHLAN, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 334), is +principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh Lighthouse, 13,436; obtains +supplies from Granton and Aberdeen, 13,437; has opened an +account with local dealer (Mr. Henderson), and finds goods +reasonable in price and good in quality, 13,442; has heard, but +does not know, that goods at Hay & Co.'s store are expensive, +13,449. + +MAIL, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 11), is a fisherman, +548; and tenant of land, 549; complains that he is bound to deliver +all his fish to the landlord, Green, 559; is therefore obliged to deal +at landlord's store, 568; where goods are dearer, 568, and 598, 612; +fishermen are afraid to complain lest warned to leave, 572; and are +warned if they sell fish to any other dealer, 577-585; not obliged to +deal at store, but really compelled to do so by present system, 586; +goods are not inferior at store, 613; leases, 621; liberty money, +625; whales, 651; when driven on shore, one-third of the oil taken +by landlord, 657; and the rest of the price paid through the +proprietor, 655; believes that freedom in fishing would be a much +better system, 659; had a pass-book, but had to discontinue it, as +the storekeeper objected to keep it, 690; complains that men do not +know what they are earning or what goods they have till the end of +the season, and even then cannot get detailed accounts, 693; states +that he expects to be warned because of coming to give evidence, +722; merchants in bad seasons give credit to men, 731. + +MAINLAND, Hans (analysis of his evidence, p. 120), fisherman, +4857; never dealt at store, 4859; because he heard that goods were +dearer, 4860; complains that in the system of ground letting no +compensation can be got for improvements, 4865; fishing alone is +not sufficient to support men, 4872. + +MALCOLMSON, Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 408), +lives with her mother in Lerwick, 16,093; knits and sews--mother +knits, 16,094; knits fine veils and shawls, 16,096; paid always in +goods, 16,097.; never asked for money, 16,098; gets money for +sewing, 16,099; buys her provisions with this money, and money +obtained by letting lodgings, 16,101, 16,102; would prefer to get +money for hosiery, 16,103. +-(recalled, p. 409). Produces black veil bought from Mr. +Linklater which cost 1s. 4.1/2d., 16,136. ) + +MALCOLMSON, Malcolm (analysis of his evidence, p. 66), +fisherman at Channerwick, 2978; and his father is a tenant under +fish-curer, 2979; tenants under former tacksman (Robert Mouat) +fished for him, supposing they were bound, 2983; there was no +obligation, 2984; were forbidden to sell their fish to others, 2992; +and were threatened with ejectment if they did, 2994; one man was +ejected, 2994; and notice of ejectment was served on witness's +father because witness had sold fish to another merchant, 2997; but +being ill, was afterwards permitted to remain, 3003; men were +obliged to take goods from store, 3004; as they had no money, +3005; could not get any, 3006, 3007; goods were very bad, 3009. + +MALCOLMSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 118), +fisherman and tenant at Northtown, 4771; corroborates William +Goudie (p. 105) and Laurence Smith (p. 110), 4772, 4773; knows +a case of ejectment for selling fish to other dealers, 4777; men +would make more if they were allowed to cure for themselves, +4780; long settlements are sometimes a disadvantage, 4782; not +many fishermen have deposits in bank, 4785; price of meal, 4788; +thinks meal dearer at factor's store, 4794; but quality good, 4799. + +MANSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 64), formerly a +fisherman at Dunrossness, 2924; now curer of fish for Harrison & +Son at Lerwick, 2925, 2926; and superintendent of their workers, +2927; Harrison & Son are principally engaged in Faroe fishing, +2929; they have a store, 2932; is not obliged to deal there, but +workers generally do, 2933-2936; his wages are paid, and he pays +in cash, 2937; no pass-books, 2944; has no complaint to make, +2947; in Faroe fishing the price not fixed till the end of the season, +2954; family, in the absence of fisherman, get goods and cash if +they require at store, 2955, 2957; not obliged to deal at store, +2961; men generally get outfit there, 2962. + +MANSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 67), fisherman at +Channerwick, 3018; tenant under fish-curer, 3019; formerly under +tacksman (Mouat), 3020; bound to fish for him, 3021; ejected by +him for selling fish to another dealer, 3022-3028; permitted to +remain on paying the expense of the summons and promising +obedience, 3029; goods very bad, 3039-3045; obliged to deal at +store from want of money, 3041, 3942; at liberty now to fish for +any one, 3047. + +MEAL, Price of, etc., 393, 1135, 1345, 3413, 4316, 4548, 4706, +4788, 4835, 5045, 5300, 5324, 5330, 5514, 5696, 5799, 5962, +6194, 6235, 6834, 6972, 7400, 7786, 7897, 7951, 7999, 8475, +8697, 8733, 8766, 8890, 8965, 9068, 9286, 9315, 9396, 9812, +9843, 9899, 10,019, 10,222, 10,254, 10,391,10,511, 10,612, +10,676, 10,753, 11,846, 12,658, 12,756, 12,795, 12,870, 13,019, +13,045, 13,166, 13,173, 13,223, 13,250, 13,259, 13,306, 13,388, +13,884, 14,106, 14,570, 14,727, 14,923, 14,965, 14,975, 15,018, +15,833, 16,656, 16,659, 16,820. + +MEN (or boys) cannot help incurring debt, 10,282. + +MEN curing for themselves, 924, 964, 1074, 3943, 4780, 5428, +5984, 8466, 11,934, 12,056, 12,295, 12,937, 13,034, 13,986, +14,155, 14,893, 15,068, 13,982. + +MEN must take goods from fish-curer, 568, 586, 764, 3004, +13,088, 13,982. + +MEN supported by merchant in bad season, 731, 954, 3623, +4363, 6274, 10,753, 12,295, 12,547, 13,048. + +MEN taking goods from fish-merchant, 2933, 2961, 3004, 3041, +3640, 4238, 4298, 4345, 4488, 4520, 4627, 4671, 4965, 5112, +5436, 5547, 5628, 5679, 5789, 5856, 6057, 6189, 6253, 6554, +6842, 6903, 6944, 7392, 8337, 8519, 8685, 8726, 9286, 9307, +9557, 9828, 9930, 10,386, 10,587, 10,704, 11,806, 12,112, 12,210, +12,266, 12,295, 12,347, 12,686, 12,739, 12,847, 13,087, 13,405, +13,507, 13,701, 13,946, 13,980, 14,796, 15,720, 16,373. + +MEN wish liberty in fishing, 544, 560, 659, 788, 1109, 4424, +4584, 4780, 12,635, 12,750, 12,865, 13,425, 13,840, 14,939. + +MERCHANTS, monopoly of shop trade, 12,372. + +MILLAR, Rev. Duncan (analysis of his evidence, p. 147), United +Presbyterian clergyman at Mossbank, 5974; thinks the system of +long payments injurious to men, as apt to lead them into debt and +to teach them deception [Page 449], as it encourages smuggling, +5981; men curing for themselves, 5984; indebted men under +control of shopkeeper, 5995; system by which men are forced to +fish, 5997; hosiery, 6004; women would prefer payment in cash, +6006. + +MOFFAT, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 413), seaman at +Lochside, Lerwick, and serves in Naval Reserve, 16,341; has gone +to seal and whale fishing under various agents, 16,343; always +deals with the one he sails under, 16,346; until 1867 had settlement +at agent's office, 16,347; since then at Custom-house, 16,348; goes +down from there and settles his account, 16,349; amount paid on +advance notes is not sufficient to sustain his family, and therefore +he prefers to leave his advance notes in the agent's hands and let +his family obtain supplies from him, 16,359; generally has a +balance to get at settlement, 16,366; wife gets cash when she asks, +16,368; men are quite free to deal, but generally go to the shop of +the agent they sail under, 16,373. + +MONCRIEFF, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 281), baker +and provision merchant in Scalloway, 11,461; deals in hosiery, +11,463; pays in goods, 11,464; never gives money, 11,465; +mentions case of a woman bringing soap and bartering it for +provisions, 11,475; gets worsted from Edinburgh, 11,507; cannot +get Shetland wool, 11,508; deals in ready money with fishermen to +a small extent--does not run accounts with them, 11,518; possibly +a ready money system would improve his trade with them, 11,521. + +MONEY articles, 451, 3473, 5093, 6368, 11,545. + +MONRO, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 409), second +officer of Customs at the port of Lerwick, 16,141; for five years, +16,142; when new regulations came into force in 1867, merchants +endeavoured to make deductions other than those they had a right +to make, but were stopped, 16,147, 16,148; it is understood that +men always pay their accounts to agent after they are settled with, +16,163. + +MOODIE, Mrs Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 36), knits, +1848; knits partly with her own and partly with dealer's wool, +1851; paid in goods, 1855; but can get some money if she wishes, +1856; gets lines, 1875; sometimes sells them for money, 1879; has +sold to strangers at a cheaper rate that she might get money, 1881, +1882; could always have wool for goods, 1890. + +MOODIE, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 371), seaman and +fisherman in Lerwick, 14,761; has been at sealing and whaling for +a number of years, 14,762; under various owners, 14,764; green +hands generally get outfit from merchants, 14,766; goods are as +cheap at agent's shop as any other, 14,769; at settlement paid in +full at the Custom-house, with the exception of ship's bill, 14,773; +no compulsion is used to make him pay his account at agent's, +14,779; men generally get their goods from agent who employs +them, but not bound, 14,796; has got money from Shipwrecked +Mariners' Fund, and has always got cash from agent, 14,800. + +MORE, Daniel (analysis of his evidence, p. 232), fisherman and +proprietor of house at Cunningster, 9632; once opened a shop at +Basta, and the landlord (a merchant) put him out because he was +succeeding too well, 9634; turned out of another place because he +would not fish, 9638; heavier rent charged when men do not fish, +9639-9645. + +MORRISON, Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 394), lives in +Lerwick, 15,637; lives by going errands, knitting stockings, etc., +15,638; sells occasionally neckties, 15,639; some years past sold +goods for knitting-women, 15,644; has only once or twice done so +lately, 15,649; does not make her living principally by doing +errands, 15,698; her evidence contradicted by Mrs E. Quin (p. +425). + +MOUAT, Mrs. Andrina (analysis of her evidence, p. 39), lives at +Girlsta; knits with her own wool, 2030; paid in cash and goods, +2044; sometimes could not get money, 2052; merchants are not +willing to give money, 2067. + +MOUAT, William Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 249), +partner of Spence & Co., 10,232; and co-manager at Baltasound, +10,233; corroborates Mr. Sandison, 10,236; thinks a system of +monthly payments, if it could be introduced, would be an +advantage, 10,238; system of book-keeping, 10,242, 10,277; deals +a little in hosiery, 10,306; it is generally paid in goods, 10,308. + +MOWAT, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 434), boat-builder +at Newhaven, 16,888; Shetland boats are inferior to those he is +accustomed to build, 16,892; the timber is inferior, and they are +lighter, 16,897; thinks a Shetland boat could be used for twelve or +fourteen years at the utmost, 16,907; thinks one would be dear at +£20, 16,914. + +MOUAT, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 105), blacksmith at +Olnafirth Voe, 4236; works principally for Messrs. Adie, 4237; in +getting goods from Messrs. Adie's shop, pays in cash, 4238; does +not know whether there are two prices, cash and credit, 4239; +never heard any complaints on the subject, 4247. + +MULLAY, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 383), is a merchant +and fish-curer in Lerwick, 15,140; and has a retail shop, 15,141; +employs seven boats in the ling fishing, 15,142; and has a station +at Ireland in Dunrossness, 15,143; the only place in the +neighbourhood where fish can be landed and dried, 15,144; +tenants not bound to fish to him, 15,145; but all do so, 15,146. + +NICHOLSON, Mrs. Andrina Anderson or (analysis of her +evidence, p. 78), lives in Lerwick, 3495; knits, 3497; has almost +always had payment in goods, 3501; has often heard this system +complained of, and she thinks justly, 3504; to get money she had +to become a dresser, 3505; goods are sold at a higher price by +dealers, 3508, 3510; therefore a money system would be much +better, 3511; goods are sold by knitters to obtain money, 3516; +payment in goods makes girls wear more expensive dress than +they should, 3525. + +NICHOLSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 211), is a +fisherman at North Delting, 8681; for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., +8682; has account with them, 8685; settles at end of year, 8686; +considers he is bound to fish for merchant, being indebted to him, +8695; meal, 8697; merchants charge a high price for their goods, +8704. + +NICHOLSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 293), is a +retired merchant in Scalloway, 11,906; was 25 years in business, +11,907; as fish-curer, draper, and general merchant, 11,908; sent +ten or twelve boats to the ling fishing, 11,909; was not a tacksman, +but landlord held him responsible for the men's rents, 11,912; men +under no obligation to fish, 11,928; men on the island of Havera +cure their own fish, 11,934; and he sold it for them, 11,935; +without charging any commission, 11,938; they dealt with him for +goods, 11,939; small boats are most suitable for Shetland fishing, +11,954; in one year, having had a serious loss in the sale of ling, +men offered him the use of money they had saved, 11,975; +merchants would require to be very honest under this system, for +they have ample opportunities of deceiving, 11,981; dealt in +hosiery only out of compassion for the poor people--exchanged +bread for it, 11,997; or took goods for provisions, 11,998; thinks +the goods given by Lerwick dealers for hosiery often inferior, +12,008. + +NICHOLSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 212), lives in +North Delting; fishes for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 8720; price +should be fixed at the beginning of season, 8722; deals at store, +8726; goods dearer there, 8731; quality inferior, 8732. + +NICHOLSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 258), is a +fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick, 10,581; devotes +himself entirely to farming now, 10,584; deals with Spence & Co., +and other dealers, 10,587; pays in cash generally, 10,592; has a +small account, 10,597; sorties yearly, 10,600; never bound to fish, +10,622; or to deal at any particular store, 10,623. + +NICHOLSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 81), draper, +and to a small extent a dealer in hosiery, 3568; seldom gives lines, +3573; understood in the trade that hosiery is paid in goods, 3575; +thinks a change would be beneficial, 3576; but would lower the +prices given for hosiery, 3577; there is no profit on hosiery, 3584; +pays partly in cash when required, 3593; it is an understanding that +the price is principally taken in goods, 3594; never knew of goods +or lines being exchanged for cash or necessaries, 3599; but has +heard that such things done, 3601. + +NICOLSON, Rev. Nicol (analysis of his evidence, p. 291) +clergyman of the Independent Church in Scalloway--has been +there for twenty-two years, 11,871; supposed that he was well +acquainted with the condition of the fishing population, but finds +from the evidence led that he is not, 11,873; was once a fisherman, +and when out of debt always got money from merchant if he +wished it, 11,874; thinks weekly or monthly settlements would be +an advantage if practicable, but in the majority of cases it would +not be, 11,875; masters must have security for boats and lines, and +so cannot be expected to pay weekly, 11,878; hosiery, 11,895; the +rule is to paying goods, 11,898; thinks payment in cash would be +an advantage to women, 11,900; thinks a ready money system +would be advantageous, but does not see how it would work, +11,905. + +OBLIGATION to fish. <See> Tenants. + +[Page 450] + +OGILVY, Joan (analysis of her evidence, p. 236), knits with her +own and other people's wool, 9731; always pays for worsted with +cash, but never asked it in exchange for hosiery, 9734, 9735; +cannot get payment for hosiery entirely in cash, 9746; gets any +cash she requires from one dealer, 9781; never had lines, 9769 and +9787. + +OLLASON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 406), member +of Ollason & Son, bootmakers, Lerwick, 16,018; produces letter +from fisherman, stating that by some misunderstanding he had not +got the wages he expected to get, and the amount was entirely +swallowed up by fish-curer's account and account to a former +employer retained from him at settlement, 16,019. + +OLLASON, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 37), lives in +Lerwick, and knits for herself, 1902; sells generally to ladies, +sometimes to dealer, 1904, 1905; is paid in money and goods, +1906; buys her own wool, 1920; it is generally preferred to knit +for ladies and be paid in money, 1924. + +OUTFIT, 2962, 9150, 9306, 10,801, 10,940, 12,407, 12,511, +13,755, 14,316, 14,765, 14,809, 14,827, 15,279, 15,549, 15,910, +15,947, 16,224, 16,270, 16,352, 16,534. + +OYSTERS, 3970, 11,458, 11,802, 12,313. + +PARAFFIN Oil, price of, 10,263. + +PASS-BOOKS, 12, 243, 371, 495, 690, 1340, 1348, 1481, 1611, +1664, 1670, 1700, 1791, 1942, 2077, 2213, 2383, 2455, 2676, +2944, 3668, 4099, 4337, 4881, 5117, 5170, 5574, 6400, 6917, +6994, 8954, 9827, 10,329, 11,839, 12,138, 13,176, 13,470. + +PETERSON, Euphemia (analysis of her evidence, p. 157), lives +with her parents at Hillswick, 6441; father is a fisherman and +tenant, 6442; she knits, 6444; is paid in goods, 6448; never asked +or got money, 6460; makes her own worsted, 6462; has worked at +kelp, 6463; would be paid in cash if she wished, 6467; eggs paid in +goods, 6483. + +PAUPERISM, 5234, 7272, 7631, 8637, 15,406. + +PAUPERS, 7649, 8378, 12,496, 15,406. + +PAYMENT of persons in curing establishment, 120, 2939, 5004, +5103, 5254, 5752, 5907, 6602, 8804, 10,110, 10,345, 12,808, +13,353, 14,086, 15,766. + +PEACE, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 425), partner of +Peace & Love, drapers, Kirkwall; buys Shetland hosiery both from +merchants and knitters, pays in cash, gets goods at about the same +price from both; has been told there is no profit on hosiery; thinks +a cash system would be a benefit to all parties concerned, 16,658. + +PETERSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 164), is a +fisherman at Hillyar and lives at Hillswick, 6772; tenant of land +there, 6773; fishes for Mr. Laurence Smith, 6774; formerly fished +for Mr. Anderson, 6776; left him because he refused to supply him +with goods, as he was largely in debt, 6777; was summoned for the +amount, 6785; no decree as yet in the action, 6791; fishermen are +liable for the loss of hired lines, 6808; smuggling fish, 6822; when +an indebted man ceases to fish for a merchant, he is required to +find a cautioner, 6826; price of meal, 6834; men are not obliged to +deal with merchant, 6842; his daughter works at kelp, 6851; knits, +6852; and sells his eggs, 6853; is generally paid in goods, but +never asks money, 6856. + +PETERSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 166), is a +fisherman, 6898; to Mr. Joseph Leask in Faroe fishing, 6900; +formerly at home fishing under Mr. Anderson, 6901, 6902; had +account at his shop, 6903; could not get cash during season, 6905; +but had any goods he required, 6909; deals with Mr. Leask now, +6913; refused a pass-book, 6917, 6919. + +PETRIE, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 28), lives in +Fetlar, 1416; knits her own wool, 1420; sells to dealers, 1432; +paid in goods, 1439; price fixed by dealer, 1440; lines, 1465. + +POLE, Joseph Leask (analysis of his evidence, p. 225), manager at +Greenbank for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 9335, 9336; fishermen +generally have accounts, 9339; system of book-keeping, 9337, +9367; men are not hound to fish, but it is understood they shall do +so, 9370; men are not bound for the Faroe fishing, 937l; are very +temperate, 9382; hosiery is a bad speculation, 9402. + +POLE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 145), managing +partner of Pole, Hoseason, & Co., merchants and fish-curers at +Mossbank, 5877; generally corroborates Mr. Adie--current price +for fish, how fixed, 5887-5900; thinks a price fixed at the +beginning of the season would be no advantage to men, 5904; +beach boys, 5907; obligation to fish in home fishing, 5936; +not bound for whale or Faroe fishings, 5940; hosiery, 5962; meal, +5962. + +POTATOES, 940, 10,019, 10,679, 11,628, 14,729. + +POTTINGER, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 336), is +a fisherman in Burra--lives with his father, who is a tenant there, +13,524; they spent upwards of £12 on repairs of house in 1865, +and in 1866 Messrs. Hay charged £1 extra for 'peat-leave'--he +refused to pay it, but it was deducted from him at settlement, +13,525; formerly was under Messrs. Hay, and now is under Mr. +Harrison, 13,538; Messrs. Hay did not object, 13,540; only had +liberty because he was the master of a vessel, 13,551; some men +have had to pay liberty money for their sons going to Faroe under +another merchant, 13,552; men going to Faroe fishing sign a +written agreement, 13,557; men are partners with the owners to the +extent of one-half, 13,558; there is not much smuggling practised, +13,580. + +PRICES, higher at store, 568, 598, 4313, 4542, 4614, 4662, 4734, +4742, 4794, 4835, 4860, 4887, 4978, 5045, 5300, 8403, 8704, +8731, 13,866, 13,940, 13,981. +-Higher on account of system of barter in hosiery dealings, 2866, +3176, 3508, 3909, 8040, 9585, 9715, 12,785, 12,826, 12,916, +13,085, 13,408, 13,442. +-of goods, 568, 598, 956, 959, 3423, 4238, 5801, 5856, 6193, +6266, 8731, 8887, 9299, 9583, 12,658, 12,756, 12,783, 12,826, +13,408, 13,465, 14,769, 14,860. + +PRICE of fish, how fixed and ascertained, 4919, 5887, 8932, 9085, +9537, 9675, 10,125, 10,143, 12,277, 12,565, 13,027, 13,331, +13,648, 15,103. +-Fixed at first of season, 491, 860, 1409, 5201, 5814, 5904, 6213, +6267, 7059, 8508, 8722, 9951, 10,558, 12,090, 12,104, 12,885, +12,982, 13,519. + +QUALITY of goods, 613,956, 959, 1394, 1650, 3009, 3039, 4313, +4742, 4799, 5801, 6266, 7398, 8732, 8887, 9899, 13,085, 13,408, +13,465. + +QUIN, Mary Duncan or (analysis of her evidence, p. 425), lives +in Kirkwall, was born in Lerwick, and lived there till seven years +since; has knitted for twenty years, both with her own wool and +that of merchants; always paid in goods, but did not need money +much. Women who depended on knitting for a living often had to +sell their goods for half-price to get money; sells at Kirkwall for +money. Gives evidence as to the value of veils got from Grace +Slater (p. 409) and E. Malcolmson (p. 409), 16,657. + +RATTER, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 177), fishermen at +North Roe, 7386; and tenant of Messrs. Hay, 7387; generally deals +at their store, 7392; articles always satisfactory, 7398; tea, 7399; +meal, 7400. + +RATTER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 210), fisherman at +Weathersta, 8624; for Mr. Adie, 8625; corroborates Thomas +Robertson (p. 211), 8627. + +READY Money system, 802, 3623, 8902, 9329, 9587, 9592, 9974, +9945, 10,527, 11,453, 11,826, 11,905, 12,028, 12,039, 15,078, +16,465. + +RENT, 488, 911, 944, 1226, 1386, 5274, 5404, 5759, 9991, +10,640, 11,912, 11,969, 12,153, 12,618, 13,007, 13,048, 13,459, +13,681, 14,887, 15,074, 15,120, 15,135. +-Dealer responsible for, 10,025, 10,039, 11,912, 13,679, 15,136. +-Lower because of obligation to fish, 13,293. + +ROBERTSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 378), +member of R. & C. Robertson, wholesale and retail provision +merchants, Lerwick, 15,017; merchants generally keep only one +kind of meal, 15,018; gives evidence as to prices of meal, etc., +15,021. + +ROBERTSON, Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 5), +knits for herself formerly for dealers, 221; merchants supplied her +with wool, 223; paid in goods, 229; had not pass-book, 231; could +seldom get money from dealers, and often obliged to take goods +from them and sell at half-price to get it, 236-238; gets lines from +dealers if not requiring goods, 248, 251; to obtain money, sells +these lines to persons requiring goods, 257-259, and 287-290. + +ROBERTSON, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 224), +fisherman and tenant at Hamnavoe under Mr. M'Queen, 9301; +elder of Established Church, South Yell, 9302; free to fish always, +excepting for one period of three years, when bound, 9304; ling +fishing, 9308; thinks a ready-money system would be somewhat +better for men, 9332. + +ROBERTSON, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 204), lives +at Muckle Roe--was formerly a fisherman, but is now too old, +8435; thinks fishermen are free, and should engage with any +merchant whom they think offers the best bargain, 8460; men +could not manage to cure their own fish, 8466; as they have not +accommodation, [Page 451] 8470; and would not realize so good a +price, as they would not be able to command so extensive a market +as the merchant, 8471; does not see any advantage in payments for +fish being made earlier in the season, 8472; meal is much dearer +than in the south, 8475; knitting and weaving, 8488; paid either in +goods or money, 8490; if people not indebted, 8502. + +ROBERTSON, Mrs. Janet (analysis of her evidence, p. 237), knits, +9793; for Mrs. Spence with her wool, 9794-5; is paid in goods and +money--gets money when she wishes, but generally takes goods, 9797. + +ROBERTSON, John, sen. (analysis of his evidence, p. 351), is +a merchant at Lerwick, and tacksman of Lunna estate, 14,067; +fish-curing establishment at Skerries, 14,068; has a store at Vidlin, +14,069; goods are dearer there than at Lerwick, only because of the +cost of transit--they are always sold at the lowest possible prices, +14,072; men fishing at Skerries are bound to deliver their fish to +the tacksman of Lunna, 14,075; but are free to go to the Faroe and +Greenland fishing, 14,082; beach boys are paid weekly wages, +14,086; but are settled with annually, 14,088; are supplied with +goods or cash, as they wish, 14,093-8; herring fishery a failure of +late, 14,108; men have half the produce, and the other half goes to +the expense of boats, etc., 14,112; remembers one or two instances +of new employers taking over debt due by a man to a previous one, +14,138; does not know of any special arrangement to that effect, +14,139; and never entered into one himself, 14,140; purchases +kelp, 14,143; pays 4s. 6d. in goods and 4s. in cash, 14,147; +gatherers have accounts, 14,150; does not think the fish-curing +business could be profitably carried on without combination with a +store, 14,152; people require supplies from shop, and could not do +without them, 14,153; the quality of fish would be deteriorated if +men cured for themselves, 14,155. +-(recalled, p.365). Price of meal at Lerwick, 14,570-6; does an +extensive business in it, 14,577; meal in Shetland is generally of +one quality, 14,579; only one quality sold, 14,585. + +ROBERTSON, John, jun. (analysis of his evidence, p. 383), +merchant and fish-curer, and has retail shop in Lerwick--has +fishing station at Spiggie, 15,153; none of the tenants there are +bound to fish for him, 15,154; men in neighbourhood could not +cure their own fish, because there is no beach other than his, +15,159; does not understand how some dealers give more than the +current price, 15,164; succeeded Robert Mouat, 15,178; Mouat did +not call tenants together and order them to fish for him, but merely +recommended them to do so, 15,180. + +ROBERTSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 348), +fisherman at Skelberry, in Lunnasting, 13,933; bound to fish for +tacksman, 13,934; deals at store, 13,946; runs an account, 13,950; +is generally in debt at settlement, 13,951; gets advances of money, +13,956; men put on allowance when too far in debt, 13,967. + +ROBERTSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 209), +fisherman, 8582; and tenant, of land, 8583; fishes for Mr. Adie, +8584; settles yearly, 8585; gets advances if wished, 8587; herring +fishery, 8605-8; price fixed at beginning of season, 8608. + +ROBERTSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 265), cashier +and principal clerk to Mr. Joseph Leask, 10,847; gives an account +of Mr. Leask's system of business, 10,850; Mr. Leask's tenants are +not bound to fish, 10,858; either in home or Faroe fishings, 10,912; +hold their land as yearly tenants, 10,913; denies that the truck +system is more prevalent in Shetland than other parts of the +kingdom, and that it 'makes its depressing effect felt in all the +ramifications of the industrial and social life of the natives,' +10,924; that men and their wives and children are all severally +indebted to the merchants, or that men generally are in debt, +10,925; the tenants have farms generally of about twelve acres, +10,925; some as many as twenty-three acres, and some again +seven, and, besides, there are extensive commons, 10,926; free to +the people, except in Yell, where they pay for grazing ponies and +sheep, but not cattle, 10,927; whaling agents have a very small and +inadequate profit, 10,933; and make very little profit by their +stores, for the men are supplied as cheaply, if not cheaper than at +other stores, and there are many bad debts when there is a bad +voyage, 10,938; bad voyages are frequent in whale and seal +fishing, 10,939; young men must have advances for outfit, 10,940; +men indebted generally go to another merchant, 10,957; and in that +case, seldom pay their debts, 10,959; it is principally young men +who are indebted, 10,961; there is a great scarcity of men, vessels +often have to go to the fishing without their full complement of +hands, 10,961; agents occasionally settle men's debts to other +merchants, 10,977; agents obliged to pay wages in full to men in +presence of the shipping master, but men always come to the store +immediately after and settle any account they may owe, 11,009; +allotment notes not issued by Mr. Leask, 11,051; frequently +supplies men's families with money and goods in their absence, +11,058; delays in settlement are often caused by the dilatoriness of +the men, 11,073; there is only one price charged for goods, 11,111; +men always paid in cash, and not expected to buy; but when they +do, goods are given them as cheap or cheaper than they could +obtain them elsewhere, 11,187; men are very honest, and if they +owe money, invariably pay it after receiving their wages, 11,209; +hosiery paid in goods, 11,227; is simply barter, and not truck, +11,229; all Mr. Leask's employees paid in cash, unless they prefer +to take goods, 11,248; Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the +Faroe fishing, 11,268; describes agreement with men, 11,270; +lines and hooks, and anything else required by men, supplied by +themselves, 11,272; half of the fish, after deduction of cost of +curing, goes to the owner, and the other half to the men, 11,286. + +ROBERTSON, William (recalled, p. 338). Hands in form of +agreement for Faroe fishing, 13,603; men generally join about the +middle of March, 13,604; shows workbook, 13,607; men never +bound to go to Faroe fishing, 13,625; there is only one price for +goods at store, 13,635; thinks price should not be fixed at the +beginning of season, 13,646; does not think small dealers can +command a higher, if so high a price for their fish, 13,655; unless +by selling in small parcels to retail dealers, 13,658; denies that Mr. +Leask ever forced the men on his property to fish for Mr. +Williamson, 13,668; rents are commonly paid by merchant, +13,681; and retained at settlement, 13,682; denies that the truck +system prevails in Shetland to an extent unknown in other parts of +the kingdom, 13,697; the population of Shetland is 30,000 persons, +13,698; three-fourths of these are fishermen, seamen, and their +families, 13,699; nearly every man has an account with the +merchant he fishes for--does not consider this can be called truck, +13,701; thinks men have no reason to complain, 13,707; for it is an +advantage, 13,708; fish merchant is only paid annually for his fish, +and cannot be expected to settle otherwise than yearly with men, +13,710; men frequently have large sums of money in bank, 13,726; +in Greenland whale fishing experienced men are preferred, as +agents do not like the risk of supplying outfits to young hands, +13,737; men are not bound to take outfit from agents, 13,755; +weekly or fortnightly settlements would be impossible, 13,789; +Shetland men are not improvident or extravagant, 13,807; and, as +a rule are not in debt, 13,808. + +ROBERTSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 420), is in the +employment of Hay & Co., Lerwick, 16,529; gives in statement as +to the mode of dealing with men engaged for the seal and whale +fishing, 16,530; to the following effect: 'I have been in Hay & +Co.'s employment for upwards of twenty-eight years, during which +time I have had chief management of their ship-agency business, +and particularly that part of it connected with the whale fishery. +The masters of the ships invariably choose the men who form their +crews, and fix their wages without any regard to the employer. +When engaged, men can get their first month's advance in cash, +and if they wished allotment notes. Without farther credit from the +agent, however, young hands could not get an outfit, and now the +Board of Trade regulations have very greatly lessened the number +of young men going to Greenland. The necessity of payment at the +Custom-house causes much extra trouble to the agents, and they +endeavoured at one time to get a higher commission. They did not, +however, and have continued in the agency with much reluctance. +Since 1867, men have always been paid first month's advance in +cash at shipping office, and the balance at the end of the voyage, +whenever they choose to ask it, quite irrespective of advances +to them for clothing; these, however, the men, as a rule, came +forward and settled promptly.' Men are seldom in debt, 16,531; if +indebted, they go to another agent; their accounts are occasionally +transferred to the new agent, 16,566; agents expect men to deal +with them, but only because they have always done so; there is no +compulsion, 16,586; there is great difficulty and trouble in getting +men to attend at a settlement, 16,605. + +RUSSELL, Euphemia (analysis of her evidence, p. 284), lives at +Blackness, Scalloway, 11,562; supports herself by knitting and +out-door work, 11,564; would devote her time entirely to knitting +if she could get money in payment, 11,565; when requiring money +has to take out-door work, 11,567; never got money from [Page +452] dealers, 11,570; has exchanged tea for meal, 11,578; can only +get wool for money, 11,579. + +SANDISON, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 169), +formerly fisherman, now too old to fish, 7049; fished for Mr. +Anderson, 7051; was not actually bound when indebted to +re-engage with merchant, 7054; but thought it fair to do so, +7077; price fixed at the beginning of season would be a doubtful +benefit, 7059; eggs paid in goods, 7074; fishermen much better off +now than formerly, 7083; whale fishing, 7088-7099. + +SANDISON, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 241), +partner in the firm of Spence & Co., 9978; formerly partner of Hay +& Co. (Lerwick) at Uyea Sound, 9979; manager there, 9980; +lessees of Major Cameron's estate in Unst, 9982; men not bound to +fish, 9986; small boats are better adapted to winter fishing, 9998; +winter fishing cannot be extended, 10,001; monthly payments in +cash would be the best system, 10,067 men decline this, 10,009; a +change in the system would cause poverty amongst the men for a +time, 10,015; truck is not nearly so common as it was thirteen +years ago, 10,027; a dealer is powerless to arrest for debt because +of the landlord's hypothec, 10,036; dealer is bound to see tenant's +rents paid to proprietor, or men will not be permitted to fish for +him, 10,025-10,039; dealer often cannot avoid giving further credit +to indebted men, because without it they and their families would +be starved, 10,049; a change to monthly payments from present +system would cause much pauperism in the period of transition, +10,052; thinks the best thing for Shetlanders would be to find some +profitable employment for them in the winter--does not think the +winter fishing could be improved, 10,061; thinks the Government +should improve the harbours and roads--in the sale of cattle, men +often decline to take the proceeds until the yearly settlement, +10,077; men are quite free in the sale of farm produce, 10,079; +boat hiring unprofitable, 10,139; has absolute power to eject men +on estates in tack in Unst, but has never done so, 10,162; tenants +are not bound to fish or sell farm produce, 10,165, 10,166; but +generally do, 10,168; buys hosiery, 10,182; and worsted, 10,183; +pays in cash, 10,187; thinks knitters as a rule should have as much +for their work as the value of the worsted, 10,196. +-Letter sent by (p. 248). Thinks the morals of the people may +compare favourably with those of any others in Scotland; small +shops are an evil, as they sell whisky surreptitiously; thinks the +time spent on winter fishing lost, as it could be more profitably +employed in farming; thinks the best remedy for evils is to +improve houses and get men to improve their ground. +-(recalled, p. 254). Is agent at Uyea Sound for Shipwrecked +Mariners' Society, 10,480; men never contribute, 10,481; a man +was removed because he had a shop, 10,488; small shops are an +evil, for men indebted will beg necessaries from store and sell +them for superfluities at them, 10,494; men's debts are often paid +by a new merchant, but knows of no rule to that effect, 10,498. +-(recalled, p. 263). Want of change, 10,767. + +SANDISON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 191), shopman +and book-keeper to Mr. Anderson, Hillswick. 7837; is preparing +return from Mr. Anderson's books of number of fishermen, etc., 7841. + +SANDISON, Jane (analysis of her evidence, p. 103), lives in +Sandwick, 4139; knits for Mr. Linklater, 4140; uses his wool, +4141; is paid in goods, 4142; has asked but never gets money, +4143; has exchanged goods for oil and wool, 4147-4156. + +SANDISON, Jemima (analysis of her evidence, p. 33), knitter in +Lerwick, 1697; knits for dealer, 1699; has passbook, 1700; is +paid in goods, 1704; and in money, 1708; could always get some +money if she wished it, 1708; can get wool in exchange for +hosiery, 1717. + +SANDISON, John (analysis of his eyidence, p. 167), +fisherman, 6938; and tenant of land, 6939; goes to home +fishing, 6940; for Mr. Anderson, 6941; settlement yearly, +6942; deals at his shop, 6944; never refused cash, 6956; is +not bound to deal with merchant, 6960; price of meal, 6972. + +SANDISON, Peter Mouat (analysis of his evidence, p. 127), is +inspector of poor in the parish of Fetlar and North Yell, 5141; +formerly was a fish-curer, 5142; and still cures for Spence & Co., +5255; settlements at end of year, 5145; indebtedness is a bad +policy for curers, 5148; the best men are always least in debt, +5149; men will not have pass-books, 5170; hosiery, 5176; is paid +generally in goods, 5193; fixing the price of fish at the beginning +of season would benefit the enters, but not the men, 5201; boats +and boat hires, 5206; men always get the highest currency, 5206; +men were bound to fish for him, 5211; but he never enforced the +obligation except in one case, 5216; men have been offered a +weekly payment, but refused it, 5217; there are scarcely any leases +in Yell, 5228; does not think the. system of long settlements tends +to increase the poor rates, 5234; beach boys, 5241; sometimes +have accounts, 5242; fish-curer would not choose to open these, +but it is sometimes necessary to do so, 5243; boys are not obliged +to serve, 5248; workers are paid at end of season, getting goods +during it from Spence & Co's. store, 5259; kelp, 5262; paid almost +entirely in cash, 5269; has known a few instances of restrictions +laid on the sale of farm stock when men are hopelessly in debt, +5271; rent, 5274; never knew any instance of cattle being marked +for debt, 5278. + +SCOLLAY, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 203), is a tenant +on the Busta estate, 8376; keeps pauper lunatics, 8378; previously +indebted to merchant, 8379; payments by Parochial Board to him +made through merchant, who is chairman of Board, 8387; and +complains that merchant will only give him goods, 8389; which +are charged at enormous prices, 8403. +-(recalled, p. 210). Truck is a great cause of pauperism, as it +makes the poor careless and the rich fearless. If man dies, the +goods he leaves will be taken by his creditor, and his widow and +family left penniless, 8637. +-(recalled, p. 376). Corrects his previous evidence, and gives +evidence as to prices of meal and flour, 14,964, 14,966. + +SECURITY in holding of land, best cure for evils of Shetland, +8055. + +SEPARATION of farming and fishing in Shetland (impossible), +4421, 4872, 8029; note, p. 248. + +SHARES, fishermen always work best on, 3623, 10,007, +12,604, 12,608. + +SHIPWRECKED Mariners' Society, 6711, 10,480, 11,863, +14,348, 14,800, 15,552. + +SHORT Settlements, 9579, 9952, 10,006, 10,052, 10,238, 10,341, +10,512, 10,528, 10,718, 10,827, 11,797, 11,875, 12,610, 12,887, +15,203, 15,750. +-Impracticable, 3896, 8149, 11,797, 11,875, 13,789. + +SHAWLS and haps, price of, 31, 1421, 1441, 1521, 1641, 1686, +3413, 3430, 9739, 10,205, 11,537, 11,606, 11,769, 15,922, 16,010, +16,045, 16,075, 16,113, 16,208. +-Dressing of, 1729, 1793. + +SIEVWRIGHT, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 382), +solicitor in Lerwick, 15,116; factor on property of Mrs. Budge, +Scaffold, 15,117; wrote letter to William Stewart, quoted in +Stewart's evidence (question 8917), 15,118; written because the +tenants had taken a prejudice against Thomas Williamson, and his +business fell off; the men, on explanation, were ready to deal with +him; there was no compulsion used, 15,119; Williamson was not +responsible for rents, 15,135. + +SIMPSON, Mrs. Andrina (analysis of her evidence, p. 6), knits for +herself, 306; buys her wool, 308; sells to merchants for goods, +310; never got more than part payment in cash, 316-320; never +gets lines, 329. + +SIMPSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 345), does not +wish to make any statement, because his rent may be raised or he +may be ejected, 13,830; is a tenant on estate of Lunna, 13,832; is +bound, so far as he knows, to fish for tacksman, 13,833; would +prefer liberty, 13,840; not free to sell winter fish, 13,843; is not +bound at all to deal at store, 13,903; goods in Lerwick cheaper +than at store, 13,920. + +SIMPSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, 348), fisherman at +Valour, in Lunnasting, 13,978; not having money, is obliged to +take goods from the merchant, 13,980; is charged more than +should be, 13,981; bound to fish for Mr. Robertson, 13,983; could +make more if free and curing for himself, 13,986; never sold eggs +for cash, but has no doubt he could have got it if he had wished, +14,023. + +SINCLAIR, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 22), is a +fisherman at Burra, 1100; wishes liberty in fishing, 1109; liability +for father's debts, 1143-1154; in Faroe fishing can get payment in +money, 1157; families of fishermen get provisions and money +when they are absent at the Faroe fishing, 1172, 1178. + +SINCLAIR, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 131), tenant on +Symbister estate at Lerwick, formerly bound to tacksman (Mouat), +5309; was warned because of a quarrel with his son as to an entry +of fish, 5315; got provisions at store, 5323; never got any money, +5332; meal unfit to eat, 5330. + +SINCLAIR, Isabella (analysis of her evidence, p. 72), daughter +and assistant of R. Sinclair, 3245; never knew of lines being +passed from one to another person, 3250; payments in money less, +3252; Shetland wool is becoming extinct owing to the introduction +of Cheviot sheep, 3269, 3270. + +[Page 453] + +SINCLAIR, Isabella (recalled, p. 82). Has known cases of hosiery +being sold for money to other people, and knitters have afterwards +come and spent the cash at dealer's shop, 3612. +-(recalled, p. 350). Explains, with reference to evidence of +Margaret Jamieson (p. 350), that salesmen in her father's shop +cannot give money without permission, and that the want of cash +is an exceptional case, 14,064; persons are paid in money who +have bargained for money, 14,065; but a less price given in cash, +14,066. + +SINCLAIR, Mary Ann (analysis of her evidence, p. 40), knits, +2075; for dealer with his wool, 2076; has no pass-book, 2077; is +paid in money and goods, 2079; gets as much money as she +wishes, 2092, 2107. + +SINCLAIR, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 49), merchant in +Lerwick, 2366; deals in drapery, tea, boots and shoes, and a few +groceries, 2367; deals also in hosiery, 2370; principally buys +hosiery, but sometimes gives wool out to be knitted, 2371; pays +generally in goods, but gives cash, 2373; more cash given lately, +2376; pass-books given if wished, 2383; sometimes pays entirely +in cash, 2399; but only for goods actually required, 2402-2404; +often takes goods, when not requiring them, from knitters who are +in need, 2404; payment in goods generally understood, 2411; the +system of pass-books, 2455, 2462; knitters seldom have them, +2455; refers to evidence of Elizabeth Robertson (p. 5), 2462; states +she has several times had worsted in part payment of hosiery, +2463-2470; but never gives mohair, 2471; or Shetland wool, 2473; +as the supply is very small, and there is great difficulty in getting +it, and it is only kept for the merchant's own use, 2473, 2481; as a +rule, will not even sell it for cash, 2482; gives lines, 2502; the +practice of giving lines commenced lately, 2517; a cash tariff +should be introduced, as it would save much trouble, 2519; does +not know whether in some cases knitters might not lose by it, +2521; there is no profit on hosiery at present, 2523; and merchant's +only profit is on the goods given to knitters, 2531; if cash tariff +were introduced, would have to give less for hosiery, 2543, 2547; +to give money to knitters entails considerable loss, 2579; two +prices, cash and goods, 2575; lines, 2581-2590; does not think they +are often transferred, 2587; women will not take a less price in +cash for their work, 2611; lines are seldom long in currency, 2639; +refers to evidence of Catherine Borthwick (p. 32), 2643. +-(recalled, p. 71). Refers again to evidence of Catherine +Borthwick (p. 32), 3215. +-(recalled, p. 77). Price of meal, 3413; dyeing of shawls, 3413. +-(recalled, p. 78). Ticketing of goods, 3449. +-(recalled, p. 82). Mentions case of a customer making cash +purchase in his shop, and a person having lines calling her aside +and exchanging her lines for the customer's cash in his presence, a +line being tendered in payment of his goods, 3617. +-(recalled, p. 356). Explains, with reference to Adam Tait's +evidence (p. 356), that, for various reasons, there is often a +deficiency of cash in shop, 14,289. +-(recalled, p.406). Concurs with Mr. Laurenson (p. 406), 16,035; +never barters hosiery for goods from merchants, 16,036. +-(recalled, p. 409). Explains, with reference to Slater's evidence +(p. 408), that a number of goods are torn in dressing, 16,129. + +SLATER, Grace (analysis of her evidence, p. 408), knitter in +Lerwick, 16,084; and keeps lodgings, 16,085; generally knits veils, +16,086; gets from 1s. to 1s. 4d. for knitting veils, 16,090. +(recalled, p. 409). Produces a veil she is at present making for Mr. +Sinclair, 16,128. + +SMITH, Mrs. Elizabeth Irvine or (analysis of her evidence. p. +286), lives in Scalloway, 11,683; knits chiefly for Mr. Sinclair, +11,684; has account with him, and gets whatever goods she +wishes, 11,684; gets money also when she wishes, 11,688; once +bartered tea for milk, 11,698. + +SMITH, Hans (analysis of his evidence, p. 117), is master of a +smack visiting Fair Island, 4739; takes goods to store there, 4740; +people satisfied with quality, but not the price of goods, 4742; it is +expensive carrying goods thither, and there is a risk of damage, +4743; other dealers are not allowed to sell goods on the island, +4745-8; or to buy, 4749; people fined for selling cattle or horses to +them, 4751. + +SMITH, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 322), merchant and +fish-curer at Hill Cottage, Sandwick, 13,022; conducts his business +in the same manner as Mr. Tulloch (p. 321), 13,025; generally +pays more than current price for fish, 13,027; men cannot cure fish +so well for themselves, 13,036; buys eggs, pays in goods, 13,043; +payment on delivery of fish would not be advantageous to men, as +men would not get credit, without which they cannot begin the +fishing: they would not know how to manage their money, it +would be spent before rent-time, and the landlord would roup their +corn or cattle, 13,047; the present system is a great benefit to men +in a bad year, 13,048. + +SMITH, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 110), fisherman +and tenant of land at Trosswick, 4435; corroborates William +Goudie, 4437; gets advances from dealer, 4457; never was refused +one, but always had a balance in his favour, 4459; never paid fines +or liberty money, 4483; but understood he was liable for them, +4484; would be content, but objects to be bound to fish for +landlord, 4487; not bound to deal at store, 4488. +-(recalled, p. 117). Refers to evidence of Robert Halcrow (p. +115); saw bill mentioned, and states also that a man with a letter +was sent to tenants, 4720; from landlord, stating that the lands +were given over to his son, 4726; and that they would have to fish +for him, under penalty of ejectment, 4727. + +SMITH, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 20), fisherman at Burra, +976; and tenant, 977; engaged in home fishing, 977; corroborates +Walter Williamson (p. 15), 979; formerly it was a custom with +men to take tea from store and sell to each other to obtain money, +986-993; this was forbidden by dealers, 987, 990; are bound to +deliver fish, 1003; by written obligation, 994-996; was made to +pay liberty money for his sons when they worked for another +dealer, 1012; but got it paid back afterwards, 1025. + +SMITH, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 251), fisherman +formerly at Westing, now fish-curer for Spence & Co., 10,343; +cures by contract, 10,344; beach boys get credit at the curer's shop +at the risk of merchant; fees are paid by merchant on receipt of +line, 10,345, 10,368. + +SMITH, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 220), fisherman and +tenant, at Burravoe, to Mr. Henderson, 9104; formerly fished at +Samphray for Mr. Robert and Mr. James Hoseason, 9106; bound +to do so, 9108, 9122. + +SMITH, Mrs. Rosina Duncan or (analysis of her evidence, p. 408), +lives in Lerwick, 16,067; husband alive, but old--formerly a +seaman, 16,068; has no pension, 16,069; witness knits for her +family, 16,070; at one time knitted and sold to Mr. Sinclair and +Mr. Leask, 16,072; was paid generally in goods, but got money if +she required, 16,080. + +SMITH, Rev. William (analysis of his evidence, p. 260), +clergyman of Baltasound for three years, 10,701; long payments +and running accounts have a very deteriorating effect on the +character of the people--it destroys self-reliance, 10,703; men look +to merchant for help in bad season, 10,704; does not think many +men save money, 10,709; and when men have money they conceal +it, having a want of confidence in merchants, 10,710; men +indebted sell stock to small traders privately, 10,712; thinks some +new system of money payments should be introduced, 10,714; +clergyman and small proprietors generally obtain supplies out of +Shetland, 10,715; as quality and price of dealer's goods are +different, 10,716; the houses of the people are very bad and should +be improved, but much might be done by the people themselves if +paid weekly or monthly wages, 10,718; the present system leads +men into debt, 10,719; has been asked to apply funds collected for +widows to liquidate debt, but never did so, 10,725. + +SMUGGLING of fish, by men bound to deliver to curer, 966, +3655. 3762, 5577, 5663, 5981, 6564, 6822, 7336, 12,908, 13,158, +13,579, 13,840. + +SOAP, 12,826, 13,233, 15,820, 16,875. + +SPENCE, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 256), senior partner of +Spence & Co., 10,556; produces letter, 10,558; stating that cash +system would be an advantage, and would necessitate no more, +and even less, outlay of capital than at present on the part of +masters; at least price of fish should be fixed at beginning of +season; sooner or later it will be necessary to do so; it is already +done with the winter fishing, and might with the summer; it would +be an advantage to the merchant in several ways, 10,558; herring +fishery is carried on at a great loss at present by merchants in hope +of future success, 10,563; there should be co-operation and not +competition between merchants, 10,567; as the country is too poor +for competition, 10,580. + +STEWART, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 216), +fisherman and tenant at Seafield, Mid Yell, 8911; sells fish to Mr. +Thomas Williamson by direction of landlord, 8917; has no written +tack, 8919; paid current price at end of year, 8932; sale of cattle, +8944. + +SUTHERLAND, Charlotte (analysis of her evidence, p. 426), +[Page 454] knitter in Kirkwall; brought up in Lerwick, and lived +there till 1867 with her father, and knitted goods sometimes with +merchants' and sometimes with her own wool. After her father's +death knitted to a Miss Ogilvy for money and the shops for goods. +Knew a great many women in Lerwick who lived entirely by +knitting, and had to take goods from the shop and sell them to get +money, 16,660. + +SUBDIVISION (excessive) of land to multiply fishermen, 9728, +10,925 (size of holdings). + +SUGAR, 7948, 8733, 10,231, 12,826, 12,876, 13,212, 13.235, +13,394, 13,416, 15,817, 16,656, 16,659, 16,852, 16,860. + +SUTHERLAND, George Sinclair (analysis of his evidence, p. +427). Mr. Methuen, who was to have been examined by +commissioner, is forbidden by his medical adviser, and witness +attends to speak to points on which he was expected to give +information, 16,661. Has been for eight years in Mr. Methuen's +service, and manages his business, which is the largest business in +Scotland, 16,662; gave up business in Shetland because Mr. Bruce +took all his tenants' boats into his own hands, 16,671; he had no +shop, 16,677; the system of paying for fish on delivery would be +very difficult to work in such places as Shetland, 16,704; it would +be a great advantage to merchants, 16,705; men prefer to be paid +the current price at end of year, to getting the market price on +delivery, 16,720; payment of the price of the day would benefit +both men and merchants, 16,729; large boats are an advantage in +fishing, 16,764; but in bad weather are more difficult to manage, +16,768. + +SUTHERLAND, Rev. James R. (analysis of his evidence, p. 179), +is minister of the parish of Northmaven, 7468; and well acquainted +with the condition of people, 7470; thinks the system of long +payments ruinous to men morally and pecuniarily--destroys +independence, 7474; most of the people are indebted, 7475; +merchants and men are suspicious of each other, 7490; men think +merchants take undue profits, 7491; the evidence of fishermen +already given is not to be depended on, as they are in terror of the +dealers, 7512; branch shops opened by the dealers, 7520-7523; the +system of separate accounts for each member of family destroys +family affection and mutual dependence, 7525; parents when aged +are neglected by their children, 7526; beach boys are generally +indebted, 7533; eggs, 7538; women dress more expensively than is +necessary because of the payment of hosiery in goods, 7549; when +buying corn and straw, witness cannot get it delivered to him till +after dark, because the people are in fear of the merchants, 7563; +does not know whether merchants actively cause this terrorism, +7573; money subscribed for widows of men drowned appropriated +by merchant for payment of their husbands' debts, 7581; marking +of cattle for debt, 7600; whisky, 7615; truck and allowing of credit +should be made penal, 7626. + +TAIT, Adam (analysis of his evidence, p. 356), shopman to Robert +Sinclair, 14,280; settled with Margaret Jamieson (p. 350) for a hap +purchased by Mr. Sinclair lately, 14,281; paid 19s. 6d. in goods +and 6d. in cash--the bargain was made for goods, and so he refused +to give her cash except at a reduction, 14,284; seldom a deficiency +of cash in shop, 14,288. + +TAIT, Agnes (analysis of her evidence, p. 288), lives in Scalloway +alone, 11,755; supports herself entirely by knitting; is always paid +in goods; never asked money, because she knew she would not get +it, 11,757; got money by sending hosiery south, 11,758; barter of +goods for money, 11,759. + +TAIT, George Reid (analysis of his evidence, p. 363), agent in +Lerwick for whaling vessels, 14,509; settles with men at shipping +office in full, 14,513; men generally settled with at once, 14,516; +men, as a rule, pay their accounts immediately after, 14,526; +are very honourable, 14,527; report by Mr. Hamilton very +exaggerated, 14,549; is acquainted with the practice of exchanging +lists of men indebted who have left their employment-has not +seen any of these for some years, 14,558. + +TAIT, Mrs. Jemima Brown or (analysis of her evidence, p. 7), +knits for dealer, 335; uses his wool, 338; has pass-book, 343; +cannot get money, 352. + +TEA, Price of, etc., 986, 1488, 6696, 7399, 7452, 7949, 8733, +8967, 9269, 9811, 10,226, 10,252, 10,318, 10,673, 11,749, 13,393, +13,416, 14,726, 15,808, 15,832, 16,656, 16,830, 16,857. + +TENANTS bound to fish for curer, 476, 559, 764, 775, 784, 994, +1003, 1066, 1110, 1114, 1209, 1242, 1396, 2974, 2983, 3021, +4256, 4508, 4575, 4613, 4647, 4803, 4901, 4911, 5077, 5127, +5211, 5284, 5309, 5936, 6028, 7111, 9108, 9224, 9274, 9275, +9304, 9370, 9638, 9821, 9924, 10,402, 10,661, 12,058, 12,367, +12,621, 12,734, 12,774, 12,800, 12,843, 13,082, 13,130, 13,293, +13,833, 13,934, 13,983, 14,075, 14,731, 14,890, 15,061, 16,433, +16,656. + +TENANTS free in fishing, 1109, 3047, 5409, 5544, 5804, 6185, +6251, 7975, 8084, 8781, 8894, 9304, 9514, 9555, 9819, 9986, +10,165, 10,208, 10,324, 10,551, 10,622, 10,640, 10,858, 10,874, +10,912, 11,060, 11,729, 11,928, 12,029, 12,247, 12,949, 13,293, +13,455, 15,060, 15,145, 15,154. + +THOMASON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 152), +fisherman at Eskerness and at Stenness, 6183; fishes for dealer, +6185; free to fish for any one, 6185; tenant of land, 6186; has an +account with dealer, 6189; no pass-book, 6190; is not bound to +deal at shop, 6192; goods much the same in price as elsewhere, +6193; meal, 6194; does not think a price fixed at beginning of +season would be an advantage, 6213; freedom in fishing an +advantage to men, 6227; meal, 6235. + +THOMPSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 387), seaman +in Lerwick, 15,276; has frequently gone thence on sealing and +whaling voyages, 15,277; under various agents, 15,278; always got +outfit from agent he sailed under, 15,279; got goods from him and +balance in cash, 15,285-15,300; always got money when he asked, +15,302; now is paid at Custom-house, and pays his account at shop +immediately thereafter, 15,321. + +THOMSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 287), shopkeeper +and grocer at Sandsound in Sandsting, 11,699; deals a little in fish +in winter and spring, 11,703; cures for himself, 11,704; pays on +delivery, 11,706; in goods if cash not wished, 11,707; runs +accounts with fishermen, but does not like doing so, 11,711; might +have a better business if men were paid for fish on delivery, +11,717; men have freedom in fishing in his district, 11,729. + +TOBACCO, Price of, etc., 5053, 10,229, 10,257, 12,875, +13,204, 13,231, 13,395, 13,457, 16,854. + +TULLOCH, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 9), a fisherman, +456; fishes for ling for Mr. Tulloch, 459; is afraid of the landlord +taking the tack of the tenants into his own hands, 468; does not +complain of present arrangement, except that prices of fish are +never fixed till the cud of the season, 474; no written agreements, +476; all the fish delivered to merchant's factor, 484; can get money +before settlement to pay rent, 488; would rather contract to supply +fish at a stated price, 491; can have pass-books, 495; balance paid +at end of season, 501; sometimes a deficiency, 501; which is +allowed to stand over, 503; is not bound to deal with merchant, +514; has heard that landlord proposes to take fishing into his own +hands, and fears oppression in that case, 528. + +TULLOCH, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 134), lives at +Brough in Mossbank, 5426; fished for himself for two years, and +sold to Mr. Leask, 5427; has a man to cure his fish, 5428; makes +more this way, 5430; takes his fish to Lerwick yearly, and is then +paid for them, 5434; in cash, 5435; men on Busta estate all free, +5443; pays the same price when buying goods for cash as he +would taking them on credit, 5447; price of fish and cost of curing, +5446-5460. + +TULLOCH, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 277), shopkeeper +at Scalloway to Hay & Co.; they have a shop, 11,309; in winter +fishing men paid in cash on delivery, 11,313; men generally take +their goods, but are not obliged, 11,372; people employed in +curing paid weekly wages, 11,427; they generally take full value +of these prior to settlement, 11,429; butter and eggs paid for in +goods, 11,435; ready-money payments would facilitate business, +11,455. + +TULLOCH, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 60), merchant in +Lerwick, 2767; sells drapery, tea, and soap, 2768; deals in hosiery, +2770; buys it chiefly--seldom employs knitters, 2770; pays +principally in goods, seldom gives cash, 2771; knitters have no +pass-books, 2772; does not sell worsted, 2779; but lately has sold a +little Pyrenees wool, 2779; sometimes giving it for hosiery, 2781; +objects to sell Shetland wool even for cash, 2783; gives lines, +2785; there is generally no profit on hosiery, 2793; system of +payment in goods is very old; does not think knitters would agree +to a cash system, as they would be paid a less price, 2800; does not +object to a cash system, but thinks it would greatly interfere with +the sale of goods, 2807; it would also be injurious to merchants, +2808. + +TULLOCH, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 29), knits, +1476; has used her own wool for eighteen months, 1477; +previously knitted for Mr. Linklater, 1478; was paid in goods, +1480; had a pass-book, 1481; got tea and sold it to get money, +1488; knits now, and sells to merchants for part money and part +goods, 1515-1527; gets articles and sells them to others for money, +1528, 1540. + +TULLOCH, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 321), [Page 455] +fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden, 12,946; employs a number of +crews in summer fishing, 12,947; men not obliged to fish, 12,949; +settles annually, 12,953; men have accounts at store, 12,954; pays +men a price higher than the current price, 12,972; if price were +fixed at the beginning of the season, men would get less, 12,982; +men's debts sometimes paid by new merchant, 13,001; is not +responsible for rents, 13,007; buys eggs, pays in goods, 13,015. + +TULLOCH, William Bruce (analysis of his evidence, p. 359), +merchant and shipping agent at Lerwick, 14,379; agent for +Greenland whaling vessels, 14,380; disagrees in part with the +evidence of Mr. William Robertson, 14,382; lists of balances due +by men to merchants are still handed by agents to each other, +14,385; but accounts only paid with consent of man, and when +there is a balance sufficient in his favour, 14,386; young hands are +not so commonly employed in Greenland fishing now, 14,448; +formerly that trade was a nursery for the navy, now the regulations +of the Board of Trade have prevented this, 14,454. + +TWATT, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 299), merchant at Voe, +in the parish of Walls, 12,164; business the same as that of Mr. +Georgeson, 12,167; cannot get men to fish for him, 12,173; men +are expected to deal at store, 12,195; thinks that skippers of vessels +get a fee to make the men deal at store, 12,200; deals a little in +hosiery and eggs; pays by barter, 12,217, 12,218. + +TWO Prices (cash and credit), 1936, 4238, 5392, 9438, +10,393, 10,507, 11,111, 13,635. +-(cash and goods), 2171, 2575, 2726, 12,295, 15,826. + +VEILS, Price of, etc., 1422, 9738, 11,629, 16,090, 16,122, 16,128, +16,130, 16,657. + +WALKER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 402). Formerly +gave evidence before the commissioners, under the Act of 1870, +in Edinburgh, 15,920; re-affirms all evidence then given, and +explains as to the value of wool in a shawl, 15,921; contradicts +that merchants have no profit on hosiery, as he believes they +often have an extremely large one, 15,922; a great deal of land in +Shetland is under-rented for the purpose of binding fishermen, +15,936; men are afraid to come forward to give evidence before +the commissioner, 15,940; witness has been instrumental in +starting a large Limited Liability Company, to afford Shetlanders +the means of prosecuting fishing free from the oppression of truck, +15,941; the old system of payments to be adhered to, but men to be +paid in cash--in order to provide for outfits, the accounts to be paid +by Company whenever the ship leaves with the men on board -- +and advances to be made to families, 15,947; manages chromate of +iron quarries at Unst, 15,969; wages not paid in truck, 15,970; but +were formerly, 15,971; since the abolition of truck in parishes with +which he is connected, the poor-rates have been reduced +considerably, 15,975; merchants often commence business without +any capital, and so trade on that of the fishermen, 15,982. +-- (recalled, p. 406). Messrs. Hay's establishment is the largest of +the kind in Lerwick, 16,024; men are ready to sign or do anything +they are bid by the curers, 16,027. + +WANT of change and money, 10,767, 14,042, 14,064, 14,289. + +WANT of independence, 3717 (none), 5992, 8050, 9946, 10,650, +13,877, 14,739. + +WARNING too short, 4688, 8055. + +WEEKLY or monthly payments (see Short Settlements). + +WHALE and Seal Fishery, statements as to, 3991, 7088, 9136, +9609, 10,799, 10,931, 12,506, 13,695, 13,735, 14,080, 14,163, +14,293, 14,509, 14,522, 14,762, 14,815, 15,277, 15,489, 15,547, +15,600, 15,871, 16,221, 16,343, 16,390, 16,530. + +WHALES driven ashore by men, one-third of oil taken by +landlord, 657, 764, 861, 4405, 11,856, 13,479. + +WHALING Agents (see Whale and Seal Fishery). + +WILLIAMSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 963), +fisherman at Cullivoe in North Yell, 10,769; does a good deal in +winter fishing, 10,773; makes more by it than most men, 10,774; +large boats are not so good for it, 10,788; but he intends to make a +trial in one, 10,789; was at whale fishing in 1864, 10,799; men +commonly paid in cash unless they require goods, 10,811; does not +see any advantage in monthly payments; in his own case, gets +money whenever he requires it, 10,827. + +WILLIAMSON, Mrs. Christina (analysis of her evidence, +p. 4), knits, 150; uses her own wool, 152; often asked for money, +but cannot get it, 160-165; sells a shawl, and opens an account +with dealer, 175-186. + +WILLIAMSON, Mrs. C. (recalled, p. 356). Corrects her former +evidence (p. 4) to the effect that it was not Mr. Laurenson but Mr. +Laurence to whom she sold a shawl, 14,291. + +WILLIAMSON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 121), +fisherman and tenant, Eastshore, Dunrosness, 4888; free in fishing +till twelve years since, then bound to fish for tacksman, 4901; +corroborates William Goudie (p. 105) and others, 4904; can +always get money, 4905. + +WILLIAMSON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 232), +fisherman at Mid Yell; goes to whale and seal fishing, 9609; in +whale fishing month's wages paid in advance, and allotment notes +given, 9613. + +WILLIAMSON, Gideon (analysis of his evidence, p. 202), +fisherman at Muckle Roe, 8333; fishes for Mr. Inkster, 8335; is +settled with at Hallowmas yearly, 8336; deals at Mr. Inkster's +store, 8337; does not wish to deal elsewhere, 8342; never knew +men change employers because of being in debt, 8348. + +WILLIAMSON, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, 253), principal +storekeeper to Spence & Co., Haroldswick, 10,448; knows nothing +of hosiery purchases, as they are made by Mrs. Spence, 10,450; +gets lines by her from women, 10,452; and always pays them in +goods, 10,455. + +WILLIAMSON, Mrs. Grace (analysis of her evidence, p. 201), +lives in Muckle Roe, 8253; knits and makes cloth, 8254; uses her +own wool for the cloth, 8256; gets either money or goods in +payment as she requires, 8257; her husband fishes for Mr. Inkster, +8274; she has no separate account at shop from her husband, 8277. + +WILLIAMSON, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 153), +fisherman at Stenness, 6248; tenant at Tangwick, 6249; free in +fishing, 6251; fishes for dealer, 6252; deals principally at his shop, +6253; gets advances during season if required, 6265; is satisfied +with price and quality of goods at shop, 6266; thinks the fixing of +a price for fish at the beginning of the season would be a great +disadvantage to men, 6267; people are often supported by +merchants in bad seasons, 6274-6277; kelp, 6325. + +WILLIAMSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 218), +merchant at Linkhouse, Mid Yell, 8993; men free to fish to any +one, 8998; formerly engaged to fish for him, but had to break their +engagements by order of their landlord (see William Stewart's +evidence, p. 216), 9000; deals a little in hosiery, 9052; pays chiefly +in goods, 9053; has occasionally liquidated debts of fishermen +coming into his employment, 9074. + +WILLIAMSON, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 202), lives +in Muckle Roe, 8308; knits and makes some cloth, 8309; knits her +own wool, 8310; is always paid in goods, cannot get money, 8314; +paid for cloth in money if required, 8328. + +WILLIAMSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 228), +merchant and fish-curer at Seafield, 9463; previously shopman to +Magnus Mouat, 9464; his system of business, 9469-9486; +purchase of cattle, 9489; supplying of fishermen the principal +support of his business, 9495-9500; would not wish men to fish for +him unwillingly, 9523; gives for fish the current price as fixed by +the principal merchants, 9538; deals a little in hosiery and yarn, +9547; sells it in Lerwick for goods, 9548; hosiery and worsted are +bad speculations, 9552. + +WILLIAMSON, Walter (analysis of his evidence, p. 15), +fisherman at Burra, 762; tenant, 763; complains that men are +bound to fish for landlord or pay liberty money, and that price not +fixed till end of season; cannot get leases, and owing to the nature +of the settlements must deal at landlord's shop; one-third of oil +from whales driven on shore is taken by landlord; daughters who +knit cannot get payment in money (these statements made in a +letter signed by witness and twelve others), 764; not under written +obligation to fish for landlord, 775; but bound verbally, 776; +cannot obtain liberty, 784; would prefer to fish on his own +account, 788; but would be ejected if he did, 790; long settlements, +807; would prefer the price to be fixed at the beginning of season, +if fixed honestly, 860; whales, 861-4; Faroe fishing, 876; ejection +for giving evidence, 900; rents, 911; farm produce, 939; men have +the advantage of credit in bad seasons, 954; but if they had liberty, +would not require it, 955; quality and price of store goods, 956; +men occasionally are obliged to cure and sell fish secretly to obtain +money, 967-970. + +WILLIAMSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 250), +fisherman at Snarravoe, Unst, and tenant, 10,320; supposes he is +quite free in fishing, 10,324; and to deal [Page 456] at any shop, +10,325; once fished for fixed price, and got more at the end of the +season, 10,330; price fixed always in the herring fishery, 10,336; +does not know whether monthly payments would be an advantage, +10,341. + +WILSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 426), is a +fisherman at Kirkwall; was born and lived in Fair Isle until 1869; +left because he expected to be evicted; prices were too high in Fair +Isle, 16,659. + +WILSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 424), weaver at +Kirkwall; born in Fair Isle, and lived there until lately; population +about 30 or 40 families; they live chiefly by fishing, and that +principally in the summer; have always been bound to deliver their +fish to proprietor; men were settled with year]y, and never could +get cash; previously prices at store were much higher than charged +by hawkers who came to the island, 16,656. + +WINTER Fishing, 7212, 7802, 8033, 8815, 8847, 8904, 9328, +9887, 10,001, 10,062, 10,083, 10,633, 10,773, 11,312, 11,703, +12,279, 12,478, 12,764, 12,879. +-Possibility of extending. + +WINWICK, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 1), knits for +Mr. Linklater, 2; uses his wool, 5; and is paid for her knitting, 7; +partly in money, partly in goods, 8; price fixed by merchant, 9; +keeps no passbook, 12; does not think she could have got payment +entirely in money, but never tried, 15; is always content, 19; only +needs money for rent or provisions, 20; always got whatever +money she asked, 22; but would have liked more, 29; knits a shawl +in about a month, 31; gets 10s. in money and goods, 33; wool +usually supplied, and women paid for the knitting, 44-46; dealers +will not sanction any other arrangement, 60. + +WOOD, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 203), is a fisherman at +Muckle Roe, 8360; to Mr. Inkster, 8361; corroborates Gideon +Williamson (p. 202), 8363; men's debts usually transferred to new +merchant, 8373. + +WOOL and worsted, 449, 1154, 1423, 1515, 1571, 1671, 1717, +1890, 1955, 2288, 2463, 2752, 2783, 2897, 3087, 3188, 3269, +3486, 6462, 7317, 8486, 8897, 9058, 9412, 9547, 9715, 9723, +9734, 10,183, 11,507, 11,571, 13,815, 14,005, 14,053, 15,396, +15,921, 16,043, 16,116. + +WORSTED a ready-money article, 449, 1720, 11,545, 11,579. + +YOUNG, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 143), fisherman at +Stenness, 5773; holds no land, 5775; goes to home fishing, 5777; +deals with merchant, 5789; can get advances of money during +season, 5791; meal, 5799; goods as good and cheap at merchant's +store as at any other shop, 5801; not bound to fish, 5804; would +like price fixed at beginning of season, 5814; but thinks there +might be some difficulty in getting fishermen to abide by their +bargain, 5819; men in debt to curer expected to fish for him, 5829. + + + + + +End of +Project Gutenberg's Second Shetland Truck System Report, by William Guthrie + diff --git a/3611.zip b/3611.zip Binary files differnew file mode 100644 index 0000000..432b9bc --- /dev/null +++ b/3611.zip diff --git a/LICENSE.txt b/LICENSE.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..6312041 --- /dev/null +++ b/LICENSE.txt @@ -0,0 +1,11 @@ +This eBook, including all associated images, markup, improvements, +metadata, and any other content or labor, has been confirmed to be +in the PUBLIC DOMAIN IN THE UNITED STATES. + +Procedures for determining public domain status are described in +the "Copyright How-To" at https://www.gutenberg.org. + +No investigation has been made concerning possible copyrights in +jurisdictions other than the United States. 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