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diff --git a/.gitattributes b/.gitattributes new file mode 100644 index 0000000..6833f05 --- /dev/null +++ b/.gitattributes @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +* text=auto +*.txt text +*.md text diff --git a/1677-h.zip b/1677-h.zip Binary files differnew file mode 100644 index 0000000..a4201ea --- /dev/null +++ b/1677-h.zip diff --git a/1677-h/1677-h.htm b/1677-h/1677-h.htm new file mode 100644 index 0000000..92b79d8 --- /dev/null +++ b/1677-h/1677-h.htm @@ -0,0 +1,1465 @@ +<?xml version="1.0" encoding="us-ascii"?> + +<!DOCTYPE html + PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" + "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd" > + +<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en"> + <head> + <title> + Alcibiades II., by An Imatator of Plato + </title> + <style type="text/css" xml:space="preserve"> + + body { margin:5%; background:#faebd0; text-align:justify} + P { text-indent: 1em; margin-top: .25em; margin-bottom: .25em; } + H1,H2,H3,H4,H5,H6 { text-align: center; margin-left: 15%; margin-right: 15%; } + hr { width: 50%; text-align: center;} + .foot { margin-left: 20%; margin-right: 20%; text-align: justify; text-indent: -3em; font-size: 90%; } + blockquote {font-size: 97%; font-style: italic; margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%;} + .mynote {background-color: #DDE; color: #000; padding: .5em; margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 95%;} + .toc { margin-left: 10%; margin-bottom: .75em;} + .toc2 { margin-left: 20%;} + div.fig { display:block; margin:0 auto; text-align:center; } + div.middle { margin-left: 20%; margin-right: 20%; text-align: justify; } + .figleft {float: left; margin-left: 0%; margin-right: 1%;} + .figright {float: right; margin-right: 0%; margin-left: 1%;} + .pagenum {display:inline; font-size: 70%; font-style:normal; + margin: 0; padding: 0; position: absolute; right: 1%; + text-align: right;} + pre { font-style: italic; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 10%;} + +</style> + </head> + <body> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + +The Project Gutenberg EBook of Alcibiades II, by An Imitator of Plato + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: Alcibiades II + +Author: An Imitator of Plato + +Translator: Benjamin Jowett + +Release Date: September 21, 2008 [EBook #1677] +Last Updated: January 15, 2013 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ALCIBIADES II *** + + + + +Produced by Sue Asscher, and David Widger + + + + + +</pre> + <p> + <br /><br /> + </p> + <h1> + ALCIBIADES II + </h1> + <p> + <br /> + </p> + <h2> + by An Imatator of Plato + </h2> + <h4> + (see Appendix II) + </h4> + <p> + <br /><br /> + </p> + <h3> + Translated by Benjamin Jowett + </h3> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <h3> + Contents + </h3> + <table summary="" style="margin-right: auto; margin-left: auto"> + <tr> + <td> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link2H_APPE"> APPENDIX II. </a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link2H_4_0002"> ALCIBIADES II </a> + </p> + </td> + </tr> + </table> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> <a name="link2H_APPE" id="link2H_APPE"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <h2> + APPENDIX II. + </h2> + <p> + The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not + mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim to be + ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be assigned + probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when his writings + were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit considerable + originality, and are remarkable for containing several thoughts of the + sort which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient, and which + therefore have a peculiar interest for us. The Second Alcibiades shows + that the difficulties about prayer which have perplexed Christian + theologians were not unknown among the followers of Plato. The Eryxias was + doubted by the ancients themselves: yet it may claim the distinction of + being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one which anticipates in the + most striking manner the modern science of political economy and gives an + abstract form to some of its principal doctrines. + </p> + <p> + For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend and + secretary, Mr. Knight. + </p> + <p> + That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a + genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, and + was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is poor and + weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and there is a + certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which is very + un-Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the poets:—the + remark that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is uncommonly + difficult to understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of Homer, are + entirely in the spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The + characters are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and + preaches too much, while Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There are + traces of Stoic influence in the general tone and phraseology of the + Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and + the writer seems to have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato (compare + Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather clumsily introduced, and + two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference to + the death of Archelaus as having occurred 'quite lately' is only a + fiction, probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the story of Archelaus + is told, and a similar phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen + gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages which are either corrupt + or extremely ill-expressed. But there is a modern interest in the subject + of the dialogue; and it is a good example of a short spurious work, which + may be attributed to the second or third century before Christ. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link2H_4_0002" id="link2H_4_0002"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </div> + <h2> + ALCIBIADES II + </h2> + <p> + PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates and Alcibiades. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Are you going, Alcibiades, to offer prayer to Zeus? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, I am. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: you seem to be troubled and to cast your eyes on the ground, as + though you were thinking about something. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Of what do you suppose that I am thinking? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Of the greatest of all things, as I believe. Tell me, do you not + suppose that the Gods sometimes partly grant and partly reject the + requests which we make in public and private, and favour some persons and + not others? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Do you not imagine, then, that a man ought to be very careful, + lest perchance without knowing it he implore great evils for himself, + deeming that he is asking for good, especially if the Gods are in the mood + to grant whatever he may request? There is the story of Oedipus, for + instance, who prayed that his children might divide their inheritance + between them by the sword: he did not, as he might have done, beg that his + present evils might be averted, but called down new ones. And was not his + prayer accomplished, and did not many and terrible evils thence arise, + upon which I need not dilate? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, but you are speaking of a madman: surely you do + not think that any one in his senses would venture to make such a prayer? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Madness, then, you consider to be the opposite of discretion? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Of course. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And some men seem to you to be discreet, and others the + contrary? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: They do. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Well, then, let us discuss who these are. We acknowledge that + some are discreet, some foolish, and that some are mad? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And again, there are some who are in health? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: There are. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: While others are ailing? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And they are not the same? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Nor are there any who are in neither state? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: No. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: A man must either be sick or be well? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: That is my opinion. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Very good: and do you think the same about discretion and want + of discretion? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Do you believe that a man must be either in or out of his + senses; or is there some third or intermediate condition, in which he is + neither one nor the other? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: He must be either sane or insane? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: So I suppose. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Did you not acknowledge that madness was the opposite of + discretion? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And that there is no third or middle term between discretion and + indiscretion? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And there cannot be two opposites to one thing? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: There cannot. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then madness and want of sense are the same? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: That appears to be the case. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: We shall be in the right, therefore, Alcibiades, if we say that + all who are senseless are mad. For example, if among persons of your own + age or older than yourself there are some who are senseless,—as + there certainly are,—they are mad. For tell me, by heaven, do you + not think that in the city the wise are few, while the foolish, whom you + call mad, are many? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I do. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But how could we live in safety with so many crazy people? + Should we not long since have paid the penalty at their hands, and have + been struck and beaten and endured every other form of ill-usage which + madmen are wont to inflict? Consider, my dear friend: may it not be quite + otherwise? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Why, Socrates, how is that possible? I must have been + mistaken. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: So it seems to me. But perhaps we may consider the matter thus:— + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: How? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: I will tell you. We think that some are sick; do we not? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And must every sick person either have the gout, or be in a + fever, or suffer from ophthalmia? Or do you believe that a man may labour + under some other disease, even although he has none of these complaints? + Surely, they are not the only maladies which exist? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And is every kind of ophthalmia a disease? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And every disease ophthalmia? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Surely not. But I scarcely understand what I mean myself. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Perhaps, if you give me your best attention, 'two of us' looking + together, we may find what we seek. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I am attending, Socrates, to the best of my power. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: We are agreed, then, that every form of ophthalmia is a disease, + but not every disease ophthalmia? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: We are. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And so far we seem to be right. For every one who suffers from a + fever is sick; but the sick, I conceive, do not all have fever or gout or + ophthalmia, although each of these is a disease, which, according to those + whom we call physicians, may require a different treatment. They are not + all alike, nor do they produce the same result, but each has its own + effect, and yet they are all diseases. May we not take an illustration + from the artizans? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: There are cobblers and carpenters and sculptors and others of + all sorts and kinds, whom we need not stop to enumerate. All have their + distinct employments and all are workmen, although they are not all of + them cobblers or carpenters or sculptors. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: No, indeed. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And in like manner men differ in regard to want of sense. Those + who are most out of their wits we call 'madmen,' while we term those who + are less far gone 'stupid' or 'idiotic,' or, if we prefer gentler + language, describe them as 'romantic' or 'simple-minded,' or, again, as + 'innocent' or 'inexperienced' or 'foolish.' You may even find other names, + if you seek for them; but by all of them lack of sense is intended. They + only differ as one art appeared to us to differ from another or one + disease from another. Or what is your opinion? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I agree with you. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then let us return to the point at which we digressed. We said + at first that we should have to consider who were the wise and who the + foolish. For we acknowledged that there are these two classes? Did we not? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: To be sure. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And you regard those as sensible who know what ought to be done + or said? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The senseless are those who do not know this? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The latter will say or do what they ought not without their own + knowledge? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Exactly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Oedipus, as I was saying, Alcibiades, was a person of this sort. + And even now-a-days you will find many who (have offered inauspicious + prayers), although, unlike him, they were not in anger nor thought that + they were asking evil. He neither sought, nor supposed that he sought for + good, but others have had quite the contrary notion. I believe that if the + God whom you are about to consult should appear to you, and, in + anticipation of your request, enquired whether you would be contented to + become tyrant of Athens, and if this seemed in your eyes a small and mean + thing, should add to it the dominion of all Hellas; and seeing that even + then you would not be satisfied unless you were ruler of the whole of + Europe, should promise, not only that, but, if you so desired, should + proclaim to all mankind in one and the same day that Alcibiades, son of + Cleinias, was tyrant:—in such a case, I imagine, you would depart + full of joy, as one who had obtained the greatest of goods. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: And not only I, Socrates, but any one else who should meet + with such luck. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Yet you would not accept the dominion and lordship of all the + Hellenes and all the barbarians in exchange for your life? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly not: for then what use could I make of them? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And would you accept them if you were likely to use them to a + bad and mischievous end? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I would not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: You see that it is not safe for a man either rashly to accept + whatever is offered him, or himself to request a thing, if he is likely to + suffer thereby or immediately to lose his life. And yet we could tell of + many who, having long desired and diligently laboured to obtain a tyranny, + thinking that thus they would procure an advantage, have nevertheless + fallen victims to designing enemies. You must have heard of what happened + only the other day, how Archelaus of Macedonia was slain by his beloved + (compare Aristotle, Pol.), whose love for the tyranny was not less than + that of Archelaus for him. The tyrannicide expected by his crime to become + tyrant and afterwards to have a happy life; but when he had held the + tyranny three or four days, he was in his turn conspired against and + slain. Or look at certain of our own citizens,—and of their actions + we have been not hearers, but eyewitnesses,—who have desired to + obtain military command: of those who have gained their object, some are + even to this day exiles from the city, while others have lost their lives. + And even they who seem to have fared best, have not only gone through many + perils and terrors during their office, but after their return home they + have been beset by informers worse than they once were by their foes, + insomuch that several of them have wished that they had remained in a + private station rather than have had the glories of command. If, indeed, + such perils and terrors were of profit to the commonwealth, there would be + reason in undergoing them; but the very contrary is the case. Again, you + will find persons who have prayed for offspring, and when their prayers + were heard, have fallen into the greatest pains and sufferings. For some + have begotten children who were utterly bad, and have therefore passed all + their days in misery, while the parents of good children have undergone + the misfortune of losing them, and have been so little happier than the + others that they would have preferred never to have had children rather + than to have had them and lost them. And yet, although these and the like + examples are manifest and known of all, it is rare to find any one who has + refused what has been offered him, or, if he were likely to gain aught by + prayer, has refrained from making his petition. The mass of mankind would + not decline to accept a tyranny, or the command of an army, or any of the + numerous things which cause more harm than good: but rather, if they had + them not, would have prayed to obtain them. And often in a short space of + time they change their tone, and wish their old prayers unsaid. Wherefore + also I suspect that men are entirely wrong when they blame the gods as the + authors of the ills which befall them (compare Republic): 'their own + presumption,' or folly (whichever is the right word)— + </p> + <p> + 'Has brought these unmeasured woes upon them.' (Homer. Odyss.) + </p> + <p> + He must have been a wise poet, Alcibiades, who, seeing as I believe, his + friends foolishly praying for and doing things which would not really + profit them, offered up a common prayer in behalf of them all:— + </p> + <p> + 'King Zeus, grant us good whether prayed for or unsought by us; But that + which we ask amiss, do thou avert.' (The author of these lines, which are + probably of Pythagorean origin, is unknown. They are found also in the + Anthology (Anth. Pal.).) + </p> + <p> + In my opinion, I say, the poet spoke both well and prudently; but if you + have anything to say in answer to him, speak out. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: It is difficult, Socrates, to oppose what has been well said. + And I perceive how many are the ills of which ignorance is the cause, + since, as would appear, through ignorance we not only do, but what is + worse, pray for the greatest evils. No man would imagine that he would do + so; he would rather suppose that he was quite capable of praying for what + was best: to call down evils seems more like a curse than a prayer. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But perhaps, my good friend, some one who is wiser than either + you or I will say that we have no right to blame ignorance thus rashly, + unless we can add what ignorance we mean and of what, and also to whom and + how it is respectively a good or an evil? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? Can ignorance possibly be better than + knowledge for any person in any conceivable case? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: So I believe:—you do not think so? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And yet surely I may not suppose that you would ever wish to act + towards your mother as they say that Orestes and Alcmeon and others have + done towards their parent. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Good words, Socrates, prithee. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: You ought not to bid him use auspicious words, who says that you + would not be willing to commit so horrible a deed, but rather him who + affirms the contrary, if the act appear to you unfit even to be mentioned. + Or do you think that Orestes, had he been in his senses and knew what was + best for him to do, would ever have dared to venture on such a crime? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Nor would any one else, I fancy? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: No. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: That ignorance is bad then, it would appear, which is of the + best and does not know what is best? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: So I think, at least. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And both to the person who is ignorant and everybody else? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Let us take another case. Suppose that you were suddenly to get + into your head that it would be a good thing to kill Pericles, your + kinsman and guardian, and were to seize a sword and, going to the doors of + his house, were to enquire if he were at home, meaning to slay only him + and no one else:—the servants reply, 'Yes': (Mind, I do not mean + that you would really do such a thing; but there is nothing, you think, to + prevent a man who is ignorant of the best, having occasionally the whim + that what is worst is best? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: No.) + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES:—If, then, you went indoors, and seeing him, did not know + him, but thought that he was some one else, would you venture to slay him? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Most decidedly not (it seems to me). (These words are omitted + in several MSS.) + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: For you designed to kill, not the first who offered, but + Pericles himself? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if you made many attempts, and each time failed to recognize + Pericles, you would never attack him? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Never. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Well, but if Orestes in like manner had not known his mother, do + you think that he would ever have laid hands upon her? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: No. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: He did not intend to slay the first woman he came across, nor + any one else's mother, but only his own? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Ignorance, then, is better for those who are in such a frame of + mind, and have such ideas? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Obviously. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: You acknowledge that for some persons in certain cases the + ignorance of some things is a good and not an evil, as you formerly + supposed? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I do. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And there is still another case which will also perhaps appear + strange to you, if you will consider it? (The reading is here uncertain.) + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: What is that, Socrates? + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: It may be, in short, that the possession of all the sciences, if + unaccompanied by the knowledge of the best, will more often than not + injure the possessor. Consider the matter thus:—Must we not, when we + intend either to do or say anything, suppose that we know or ought to know + that which we propose so confidently to do or say? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes, in my opinion. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: We may take the orators for an example, who from time to time + advise us about war and peace, or the building of walls and the + construction of harbours, whether they understand the business in hand, or + only think that they do. Whatever the city, in a word, does to another + city, or in the management of her own affairs, all happens by the counsel + of the orators. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But now see what follows, if I can (make it clear to you). (Some + words appear to have dropped out here.) You would distinguish the wise + from the foolish? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The many are foolish, the few wise? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And you use both the terms, 'wise' and 'foolish,' in reference + to something? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I do. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Would you call a person wise who can give advice, but does not + know whether or when it is better to carry out the advice? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Nor again, I suppose, a person who knows the art of war, but + does not know whether it is better to go to war or for how long? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: No. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Nor, once more, a person who knows how to kill another or to + take away his property or to drive him from his native land, but not when + it is better to do so or for whom it is better? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But he who understands anything of the kind and has at the same + time the knowledge of the best course of action:—and the best and + the useful are surely the same?— + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES:—Such an one, I say, we should call wise and a useful + adviser both of himself and of the city. What do you think? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I agree. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if any one knows how to ride or to shoot with the bow or to + box or to wrestle, or to engage in any other sort of contest or to do + anything whatever which is in the nature of an art,—what do you call + him who knows what is best according to that art? Do you not speak of one + who knows what is best in riding as a good rider? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And in a similar way you speak of a good boxer or a good + flute-player or a good performer in any other art? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But is it necessary that the man who is clever in any of these + arts should be wise also in general? Or is there a difference between the + clever artist and the wise man? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: All the difference in the world. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And what sort of a state do you think that would be which was + composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes and masters in + other arts, and besides them of those others about whom we spoke, who knew + how to go to war and how to kill, as well as of orators puffed up with + political pride, but in which not one of them all had this knowledge of + the best, and there was no one who could tell when it was better to apply + any of these arts or in regard to whom? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I should call such a state bad, Socrates. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: You certainly would when you saw each of them rivalling the + other and esteeming that of the greatest importance in the state, + </p> + <p> + 'Wherein he himself most excelled.' (Euripides, Antiope.) —I mean + that which was best in any art, while he was entirely ignorant of what was + best for himself and for the state, because, as I think, he trusts to + opinion which is devoid of intelligence. In such a case should we not be + right if we said that the state would be full of anarchy and lawlessness? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Decidedly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But ought we not then, think you, either to fancy that we know + or really to know, what we confidently propose to do or say? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if a person does that which he knows or supposes that he + knows, and the result is beneficial, he will act advantageously both for + himself and for the state? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if he do the contrary, both he and the state will suffer? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Well, and are you of the same mind, as before? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I am. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But were you not saying that you would call the many unwise and + the few wise? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I was. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And have we not come back to our old assertion that the many + fail to obtain the best because they trust to opinion which is devoid of + intelligence? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: That is the case. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: It is good, then, for the many, if they particularly desire to + do that which they know or suppose that they know, neither to know nor to + suppose that they know, in cases where if they carry out their ideas in + action they will be losers rather than gainers? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: What you say is very true. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Do you not see that I was really speaking the truth when I + affirmed that the possession of any other kind of knowledge was more + likely to injure than to benefit the possessor, unless he had also the + knowledge of the best? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I do now, if I did not before, Socrates. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The state or the soul, therefore, which wishes to have a right + existence must hold firmly to this knowledge, just as the sick man clings + to the physician, or the passenger depends for safety on the pilot. And if + the soul does not set sail until she have obtained this she will be all + the safer in the voyage through life. But when she rushes in pursuit of + wealth or bodily strength or anything else, not having the knowledge of + the best, so much the more is she likely to meet with misfortune. And he + who has the love of learning (Or, reading polumatheian, 'abundant + learning.'), and is skilful in many arts, and does not possess the + knowledge of the best, but is under some other guidance, will make, as he + deserves, a sorry voyage:—he will, I believe, hurry through the + brief space of human life, pilotless in mid-ocean, and the words will + apply to him in which the poet blamed his enemy:— + </p> + <p> + '...Full many a thing he knew; But knew them all badly.' (A fragment from + the pseudo-Homeric poem, 'Margites.') + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: How in the world, Socrates, do the words of the poet apply to + him? They seem to me to have no bearing on the point whatever. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Quite the contrary, my sweet friend: only the poet is talking in + riddles after the fashion of his tribe. For all poetry has by nature an + enigmatical character, and it is by no means everybody who can interpret + it. And if, moreover, the spirit of poetry happen to seize on a man who is + of a begrudging temper and does not care to manifest his wisdom but keeps + it to himself as far as he can, it does indeed require an almost + superhuman wisdom to discover what the poet would be at. You surely do not + suppose that Homer, the wisest and most divine of poets, was unaware of + the impossibility of knowing a thing badly: for it was no less a person + than he who said of Margites that 'he knew many things, but knew them all + badly.' The solution of the riddle is this, I imagine:—By 'badly' + Homer meant 'bad' and 'knew' stands for 'to know.' Put the words together;—the + metre will suffer, but the poet's meaning is clear;—'Margites knew + all these things, but it was bad for him to know them.' And, obviously, if + it was bad for him to know so many things, he must have been a + good-for-nothing, unless the argument has played us false. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: But I do not think that it has, Socrates: at least, if the + argument is fallacious, it would be difficult for me to find another which + I could trust. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And you are right in thinking so. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Well, that is my opinion. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But tell me, by Heaven:—you must see now the nature and + greatness of the difficulty in which you, like others, have your part. For + you change about in all directions, and never come to rest anywhere: what + you once most strongly inclined to suppose, you put aside again and quite + alter your mind. If the God to whose shrine you are going should appear at + this moment, and ask before you made your prayer, 'Whether you would + desire to have one of the things which we mentioned at first, or whether + he should leave you to make your own request:'—what in either case, + think you, would be the best way to take advantage of the opportunity? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Indeed, Socrates, I could not answer you without + consideration. It seems to me to be a wild thing (The Homeric word margos + is said to be here employed in allusion to the quotation from the + 'Margites' which Socrates has just made; but it is not used in the sense + which it has in Homer.) to make such a request; a man must be very careful + lest he pray for evil under the idea that he is asking for good, when + shortly after he may have to recall his prayer, and, as you were saying, + demand the opposite of what he at first requested. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And was not the poet whose words I originally quoted wiser than + we are, when he bade us (pray God) to defend us from evil even though we + asked for it? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I believe that you are right. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The Lacedaemonians, too, whether from admiration of the poet or + because they have discovered the idea for themselves, are wont to offer + the prayer alike in public and private, that the Gods will give unto them + the beautiful as well as the good:—no one is likely to hear them + make any further petition. And yet up to the present time they have not + been less fortunate than other men; or if they have sometimes met with + misfortune, the fault has not been due to their prayer. For surely, as I + conceive, the Gods have power either to grant our requests, or to send us + the contrary of what we ask. + </p> + <p> + And now I will relate to you a story which I have heard from certain of + our elders. It chanced that when the Athenians and Lacedaemonians were at + war, our city lost every battle by land and sea and never gained a + victory. The Athenians being annoyed and perplexed how to find a remedy + for their troubles, decided to send and enquire at the shrine of Ammon. + Their envoys were also to ask, 'Why the Gods always granted the victory to + the Lacedaemonians?' 'We,' (they were to say,) 'offer them more and finer + sacrifices than any other Hellenic state, and adorn their temples with + gifts, as nobody else does; moreover, we make the most solemn and costly + processions to them every year, and spend more money in their service than + all the rest of the Hellenes put together. But the Lacedaemonians take no + thought of such matters, and pay so little respect to the Gods that they + have a habit of sacrificing blemished animals to them, and in various ways + are less zealous than we are, although their wealth is quite equal to + ours.' When they had thus spoken, and had made their request to know what + remedy they could find against the evils which troubled them, the prophet + made no direct answer,—clearly because he was not allowed by the God + to do so;—but he summoned them to him and said: 'Thus saith Ammon to + the Athenians: "The silent worship of the Lacedaemonians pleaseth me + better than all the offerings of the other Hellenes."' Such were the words + of the God, and nothing more. He seems to have meant by 'silent worship' + the prayer of the Lacedaemonians, which is indeed widely different from + the usual requests of the Hellenes. For they either bring to the altar + bulls with gilded horns or make offerings to the Gods, and beg at random + for what they need, good or bad. When, therefore, the Gods hear them using + words of ill omen they reject these costly processions and sacrifices of + theirs. And we ought, I think, to be very careful and consider well what + we should say and what leave unsaid. Homer, too, will furnish us with + similar stories. For he tells us how the Trojans in making their + encampment, + </p> + <p> + 'Offered up whole hecatombs to the immortals,' + </p> + <p> + and how the 'sweet savour' was borne 'to the heavens by the winds; + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + 'But the blessed Gods were averse and received it not. + For exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium, + Both Priam and the people of the spear-skilled king.' +</pre> + <p> + So that it was in vain for them to sacrifice and offer gifts, seeing that + they were hateful to the Gods, who are not, like vile usurers, to be + gained over by bribes. And it is foolish for us to boast that we are + superior to the Lacedaemonians by reason of our much worship. The idea is + inconceivable that the Gods have regard, not to the justice and purity of + our souls, but to costly processions and sacrifices, which men may + celebrate year after year, although they have committed innumerable crimes + against the Gods or against their fellow-men or the state. For the Gods, + as Ammon and his prophet declare, are no receivers of gifts, and they + scorn such unworthy service. Wherefore also it would seem that wisdom and + justice are especially honoured both by the Gods and by men of sense; and + they are the wisest and most just who know how to speak and act towards + Gods and men. But I should like to hear what your opinion is about these + matters. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I agree, Socrates, with you and with the God, whom, indeed, it + would be unbecoming for me to oppose. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Do you not remember saying that you were in great perplexity, + lest perchance you should ask for evil, supposing that you were asking for + good? + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: I do. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: You see, then, that there is a risk in your approaching the God + in prayer, lest haply he should refuse your sacrifice when he hears the + blasphemy which you utter, and make you partake of other evils as well. + The wisest plan, therefore, seems to me that you should keep silence; for + your 'highmindedness'—to use the mildest term which men apply to + folly—will most likely prevent you from using the prayer of the + Lacedaemonians. You had better wait until we find out how we should behave + towards the Gods and towards men. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: And how long must I wait, Socrates, and who will be my + teacher? I should be very glad to see the man. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: It is he who takes an especial interest in you. But first of + all, I think, the darkness must be taken away in which your soul is now + enveloped, just as Athene in Homer removes the mist from the eyes of + Diomede that + </p> + <p> + 'He may distinguish between God and mortal man.' + </p> + <p> + Afterwards the means may be given to you whereby you may distinguish + between good and evil. At present, I fear, this is beyond your power. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: Only let my instructor take away the impediment, whether it + pleases him to call it mist or anything else! I care not who he is; but I + am resolved to disobey none of his commands, if I am likely to be the + better for them. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And surely he has a wondrous care for you. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: It seems to be altogether advisable to put off the sacrifice + until he is found. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: You are right: that will be safer than running such a tremendous + risk. + </p> + <p> + ALCIBIADES: But how shall we manage, Socrates?—At any rate I will + set this crown of mine upon your head, as you have given me such excellent + advice, and to the Gods we will offer crowns and perform the other + customary rites when I see that day approaching: nor will it be long + hence, if they so will. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: I accept your gift, and shall be ready and willing to receive + whatever else you may proffer. Euripides makes Creon say in the play, when + he beholds Teiresias with his crown and hears that he has gained it by his + skill as the first-fruits of the spoil:— + </p> + <p> + 'An auspicious omen I deem thy victor's wreath: For well thou knowest that + wave and storm oppress us.' + </p> + <p> + And so I count your gift to be a token of good-fortune; for I am in no + less stress than Creon, and would fain carry off the victory over your + lovers. + </p> + <p> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Alcibiades II, by An Imitator of Plato + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ALCIBIADES II *** + +***** This file should be named 1677-h.htm or 1677-h.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + http://www.gutenberg.org/1/6/7/1677/ + +Produced by Sue Asscher + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. 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You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: Alcibiades II + +Author: An Imitator of Plato + +Translator: Benjamin Jowett + +Posting Date: September 21, 2008 [EBook #1677] +Release Date: March, 1999 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ALCIBIADES II *** + + + + +Produced by Sue Asscher + + + + + +ALCIBIADES II + +by An Imatator of Plato + +(see Appendix II) + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + + + +APPENDIX II. + +The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not +mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim +to be ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be +assigned probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when +his writings were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit +considerable originality, and are remarkable for containing several +thoughts of the sort which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient, +and which therefore have a peculiar interest for us. The Second +Alcibiades shows that the difficulties about prayer which have perplexed +Christian theologians were not unknown among the followers of Plato. +The Eryxias was doubted by the ancients themselves: yet it may claim the +distinction of being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one which +anticipates in the most striking manner the modern science of political +economy and gives an abstract form to some of its principal doctrines. + +For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend +and secretary, Mr. Knight. + +That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a +genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, +and was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is +poor and weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and +there is a certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which +is very un-Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the +poets:--the remark that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is +uncommonly difficult to understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of +Homer, are entirely in the spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). +The characters are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and +preaches too much, while Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There +are traces of Stoic influence in the general tone and phraseology of the +Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): +and the writer seems to have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato +(compare Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather clumsily +introduced, and two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. +The reference to the death of Archelaus as having occurred 'quite +lately' is only a fiction, probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the +story of Archelaus is told, and a similar phrase occurs;--ta gar echthes +kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages which +are either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed. But there is a modern +interest in the subject of the dialogue; and it is a good example of +a short spurious work, which may be attributed to the second or third +century before Christ. + + + + +ALCIBIADES II + + +PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates and Alcibiades. + + + +SOCRATES: Are you going, Alcibiades, to offer prayer to Zeus? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, I am. + +SOCRATES: you seem to be troubled and to cast your eyes on the ground, +as though you were thinking about something. + +ALCIBIADES: Of what do you suppose that I am thinking? + +SOCRATES: Of the greatest of all things, as I believe. Tell me, do you +not suppose that the Gods sometimes partly grant and partly reject the +requests which we make in public and private, and favour some persons +and not others? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: Do you not imagine, then, that a man ought to be very careful, +lest perchance without knowing it he implore great evils for himself, +deeming that he is asking for good, especially if the Gods are in the +mood to grant whatever he may request? There is the story of Oedipus, +for instance, who prayed that his children might divide their +inheritance between them by the sword: he did not, as he might have +done, beg that his present evils might be averted, but called down new +ones. And was not his prayer accomplished, and did not many and terrible +evils thence arise, upon which I need not dilate? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, but you are speaking of a madman: surely you +do not think that any one in his senses would venture to make such a +prayer? + +SOCRATES: Madness, then, you consider to be the opposite of discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: Of course. + +SOCRATES: And some men seem to you to be discreet, and others the +contrary? + +ALCIBIADES: They do. + +SOCRATES: Well, then, let us discuss who these are. We acknowledge that +some are discreet, some foolish, and that some are mad? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And again, there are some who are in health? + +ALCIBIADES: There are. + +SOCRATES: While others are ailing? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And they are not the same? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor are there any who are in neither state? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: A man must either be sick or be well? + +ALCIBIADES: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: Very good: and do you think the same about discretion and want +of discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? + +SOCRATES: Do you believe that a man must be either in or out of his +senses; or is there some third or intermediate condition, in which he is +neither one nor the other? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. + +SOCRATES: He must be either sane or insane? + +ALCIBIADES: So I suppose. + +SOCRATES: Did you not acknowledge that madness was the opposite of +discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And that there is no third or middle term between discretion +and indiscretion? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: And there cannot be two opposites to one thing? + +ALCIBIADES: There cannot. + +SOCRATES: Then madness and want of sense are the same? + +ALCIBIADES: That appears to be the case. + +SOCRATES: We shall be in the right, therefore, Alcibiades, if we say +that all who are senseless are mad. For example, if among persons +of your own age or older than yourself there are some who are +senseless,--as there certainly are,--they are mad. For tell me, by +heaven, do you not think that in the city the wise are few, while the +foolish, whom you call mad, are many? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: But how could we live in safety with so many crazy people? +Should we not long since have paid the penalty at their hands, and have +been struck and beaten and endured every other form of ill-usage which +madmen are wont to inflict? Consider, my dear friend: may it not be +quite otherwise? + +ALCIBIADES: Why, Socrates, how is that possible? I must have been +mistaken. + +SOCRATES: So it seems to me. But perhaps we may consider the matter +thus:-- + +ALCIBIADES: How? + +SOCRATES: I will tell you. We think that some are sick; do we not? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And must every sick person either have the gout, or be in +a fever, or suffer from ophthalmia? Or do you believe that a man may +labour under some other disease, even although he has none of these +complaints? Surely, they are not the only maladies which exist? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And is every kind of ophthalmia a disease? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And every disease ophthalmia? + +ALCIBIADES: Surely not. But I scarcely understand what I mean myself. + +SOCRATES: Perhaps, if you give me your best attention, 'two of us' +looking together, we may find what we seek. + +ALCIBIADES: I am attending, Socrates, to the best of my power. + +SOCRATES: We are agreed, then, that every form of ophthalmia is a +disease, but not every disease ophthalmia? + +ALCIBIADES: We are. + +SOCRATES: And so far we seem to be right. For every one who suffers from +a fever is sick; but the sick, I conceive, do not all have fever or gout +or ophthalmia, although each of these is a disease, which, according to +those whom we call physicians, may require a different treatment. They +are not all alike, nor do they produce the same result, but each has +its own effect, and yet they are all diseases. May we not take an +illustration from the artizans? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: There are cobblers and carpenters and sculptors and others of +all sorts and kinds, whom we need not stop to enumerate. All have their +distinct employments and all are workmen, although they are not all of +them cobblers or carpenters or sculptors. + +ALCIBIADES: No, indeed. + +SOCRATES: And in like manner men differ in regard to want of sense. +Those who are most out of their wits we call 'madmen,' while we term +those who are less far gone 'stupid' or 'idiotic,' or, if we prefer +gentler language, describe them as 'romantic' or 'simple-minded,' or, +again, as 'innocent' or 'inexperienced' or 'foolish.' You may even find +other names, if you seek for them; but by all of them lack of sense +is intended. They only differ as one art appeared to us to differ from +another or one disease from another. Or what is your opinion? + +ALCIBIADES: I agree with you. + +SOCRATES: Then let us return to the point at which we digressed. We said +at first that we should have to consider who were the wise and who the +foolish. For we acknowledged that there are these two classes? Did we +not? + +ALCIBIADES: To be sure. + +SOCRATES: And you regard those as sensible who know what ought to be +done or said? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The senseless are those who do not know this? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: The latter will say or do what they ought not without their +own knowledge? + +ALCIBIADES: Exactly. + +SOCRATES: Oedipus, as I was saying, Alcibiades, was a person of +this sort. And even now-a-days you will find many who (have offered +inauspicious prayers), although, unlike him, they were not in anger nor +thought that they were asking evil. He neither sought, nor supposed that +he sought for good, but others have had quite the contrary notion. I +believe that if the God whom you are about to consult should appear to +you, and, in anticipation of your request, enquired whether you would be +contented to become tyrant of Athens, and if this seemed in your eyes a +small and mean thing, should add to it the dominion of all Hellas; and +seeing that even then you would not be satisfied unless you were ruler +of the whole of Europe, should promise, not only that, but, if you so +desired, should proclaim to all mankind in one and the same day that +Alcibiades, son of Cleinias, was tyrant:--in such a case, I imagine, you +would depart full of joy, as one who had obtained the greatest of goods. + +ALCIBIADES: And not only I, Socrates, but any one else who should meet +with such luck. + +SOCRATES: Yet you would not accept the dominion and lordship of all the +Hellenes and all the barbarians in exchange for your life? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not: for then what use could I make of them? + +SOCRATES: And would you accept them if you were likely to use them to a +bad and mischievous end? + +ALCIBIADES: I would not. + +SOCRATES: You see that it is not safe for a man either rashly to accept +whatever is offered him, or himself to request a thing, if he is likely +to suffer thereby or immediately to lose his life. And yet we could tell +of many who, having long desired and diligently laboured to obtain +a tyranny, thinking that thus they would procure an advantage, have +nevertheless fallen victims to designing enemies. You must have heard of +what happened only the other day, how Archelaus of Macedonia was slain +by his beloved (compare Aristotle, Pol.), whose love for the tyranny was +not less than that of Archelaus for him. The tyrannicide expected by his +crime to become tyrant and afterwards to have a happy life; but when he +had held the tyranny three or four days, he was in his turn conspired +against and slain. Or look at certain of our own citizens,--and of their +actions we have been not hearers, but eyewitnesses,--who have desired to +obtain military command: of those who have gained their object, some +are even to this day exiles from the city, while others have lost their +lives. And even they who seem to have fared best, have not only gone +through many perils and terrors during their office, but after their +return home they have been beset by informers worse than they once were +by their foes, insomuch that several of them have wished that they +had remained in a private station rather than have had the glories +of command. If, indeed, such perils and terrors were of profit to the +commonwealth, there would be reason in undergoing them; but the very +contrary is the case. Again, you will find persons who have prayed +for offspring, and when their prayers were heard, have fallen into the +greatest pains and sufferings. For some have begotten children who were +utterly bad, and have therefore passed all their days in misery, while +the parents of good children have undergone the misfortune of losing +them, and have been so little happier than the others that they would +have preferred never to have had children rather than to have had +them and lost them. And yet, although these and the like examples are +manifest and known of all, it is rare to find any one who has refused +what has been offered him, or, if he were likely to gain aught by +prayer, has refrained from making his petition. The mass of mankind +would not decline to accept a tyranny, or the command of an army, or any +of the numerous things which cause more harm than good: but rather, +if they had them not, would have prayed to obtain them. And often in a +short space of time they change their tone, and wish their old prayers +unsaid. Wherefore also I suspect that men are entirely wrong when they +blame the gods as the authors of the ills which befall them (compare +Republic): 'their own presumption,' or folly (whichever is the right +word)-- + +'Has brought these unmeasured woes upon them.' (Homer. Odyss.) + +He must have been a wise poet, Alcibiades, who, seeing as I believe, his +friends foolishly praying for and doing things which would not really +profit them, offered up a common prayer in behalf of them all:-- + +'King Zeus, grant us good whether prayed for or unsought by us; But that +which we ask amiss, do thou avert.' (The author of these lines, which +are probably of Pythagorean origin, is unknown. They are found also in +the Anthology (Anth. Pal.).) + +In my opinion, I say, the poet spoke both well and prudently; but if you +have anything to say in answer to him, speak out. + +ALCIBIADES: It is difficult, Socrates, to oppose what has been well +said. And I perceive how many are the ills of which ignorance is the +cause, since, as would appear, through ignorance we not only do, but +what is worse, pray for the greatest evils. No man would imagine that +he would do so; he would rather suppose that he was quite capable of +praying for what was best: to call down evils seems more like a curse +than a prayer. + +SOCRATES: But perhaps, my good friend, some one who is wiser than either +you or I will say that we have no right to blame ignorance thus rashly, +unless we can add what ignorance we mean and of what, and also to whom +and how it is respectively a good or an evil? + +ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? Can ignorance possibly be better than +knowledge for any person in any conceivable case? + +SOCRATES: So I believe:--you do not think so? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And yet surely I may not suppose that you would ever wish to +act towards your mother as they say that Orestes and Alcmeon and others +have done towards their parent. + +ALCIBIADES: Good words, Socrates, prithee. + +SOCRATES: You ought not to bid him use auspicious words, who says that +you would not be willing to commit so horrible a deed, but rather him +who affirms the contrary, if the act appear to you unfit even to be +mentioned. Or do you think that Orestes, had he been in his senses and +knew what was best for him to do, would ever have dared to venture on +such a crime? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor would any one else, I fancy? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: That ignorance is bad then, it would appear, which is of the +best and does not know what is best? + +ALCIBIADES: So I think, at least. + +SOCRATES: And both to the person who is ignorant and everybody else? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Let us take another case. Suppose that you were suddenly to +get into your head that it would be a good thing to kill Pericles, your +kinsman and guardian, and were to seize a sword and, going to the doors +of his house, were to enquire if he were at home, meaning to slay only +him and no one else:--the servants reply, 'Yes': (Mind, I do not mean +that you would really do such a thing; but there is nothing, you think, +to prevent a man who is ignorant of the best, having occasionally the +whim that what is worst is best? + +ALCIBIADES: No.) + +SOCRATES:--If, then, you went indoors, and seeing him, did not know him, +but thought that he was some one else, would you venture to slay him? + +ALCIBIADES: Most decidedly not (it seems to me). (These words are +omitted in several MSS.) + +SOCRATES: For you designed to kill, not the first who offered, but +Pericles himself? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And if you made many attempts, and each time failed to +recognize Pericles, you would never attack him? + +ALCIBIADES: Never. + +SOCRATES: Well, but if Orestes in like manner had not known his mother, +do you think that he would ever have laid hands upon her? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: He did not intend to slay the first woman he came across, nor +any one else's mother, but only his own? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: Ignorance, then, is better for those who are in such a frame +of mind, and have such ideas? + +ALCIBIADES: Obviously. + +SOCRATES: You acknowledge that for some persons in certain cases the +ignorance of some things is a good and not an evil, as you formerly +supposed? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: And there is still another case which will also perhaps +appear strange to you, if you will consider it? (The reading is here +uncertain.) + +ALCIBIADES: What is that, Socrates? + +SOCRATES: It may be, in short, that the possession of all the sciences, +if unaccompanied by the knowledge of the best, will more often than not +injure the possessor. Consider the matter thus:--Must we not, when we +intend either to do or say anything, suppose that we know or ought to +know that which we propose so confidently to do or say? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, in my opinion. + +SOCRATES: We may take the orators for an example, who from time to +time advise us about war and peace, or the building of walls and the +construction of harbours, whether they understand the business in +hand, or only think that they do. Whatever the city, in a word, does to +another city, or in the management of her own affairs, all happens by +the counsel of the orators. + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: But now see what follows, if I can (make it clear to you). +(Some words appear to have dropped out here.) You would distinguish the +wise from the foolish? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The many are foolish, the few wise? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And you use both the terms, 'wise' and 'foolish,' in reference +to something? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: Would you call a person wise who can give advice, but does not +know whether or when it is better to carry out the advice? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor again, I suppose, a person who knows the art of war, but +does not know whether it is better to go to war or for how long? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: Nor, once more, a person who knows how to kill another or to +take away his property or to drive him from his native land, but not +when it is better to do so or for whom it is better? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: But he who understands anything of the kind and has at the +same time the knowledge of the best course of action:--and the best and +the useful are surely the same?-- + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES:--Such an one, I say, we should call wise and a useful adviser +both of himself and of the city. What do you think? + +ALCIBIADES: I agree. + +SOCRATES: And if any one knows how to ride or to shoot with the bow or +to box or to wrestle, or to engage in any other sort of contest or to +do anything whatever which is in the nature of an art,--what do you call +him who knows what is best according to that art? Do you not speak of +one who knows what is best in riding as a good rider? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And in a similar way you speak of a good boxer or a good +flute-player or a good performer in any other art? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: But is it necessary that the man who is clever in any of these +arts should be wise also in general? Or is there a difference between +the clever artist and the wise man? + +ALCIBIADES: All the difference in the world. + +SOCRATES: And what sort of a state do you think that would be which was +composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes and masters in +other arts, and besides them of those others about whom we spoke, who +knew how to go to war and how to kill, as well as of orators puffed +up with political pride, but in which not one of them all had this +knowledge of the best, and there was no one who could tell when it was +better to apply any of these arts or in regard to whom? + +ALCIBIADES: I should call such a state bad, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: You certainly would when you saw each of them rivalling the +other and esteeming that of the greatest importance in the state, + +'Wherein he himself most excelled.' (Euripides, Antiope.) --I mean that +which was best in any art, while he was entirely ignorant of what was +best for himself and for the state, because, as I think, he trusts to +opinion which is devoid of intelligence. In such a case should we not +be right if we said that the state would be full of anarchy and +lawlessness? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly. + +SOCRATES: But ought we not then, think you, either to fancy that we know +or really to know, what we confidently propose to do or say? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And if a person does that which he knows or supposes that he +knows, and the result is beneficial, he will act advantageously both for +himself and for the state? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: And if he do the contrary, both he and the state will suffer? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Well, and are you of the same mind, as before? + +ALCIBIADES: I am. + +SOCRATES: But were you not saying that you would call the many unwise +and the few wise? + +ALCIBIADES: I was. + +SOCRATES: And have we not come back to our old assertion that the many +fail to obtain the best because they trust to opinion which is devoid of +intelligence? + +ALCIBIADES: That is the case. + +SOCRATES: It is good, then, for the many, if they particularly desire to +do that which they know or suppose that they know, neither to know nor +to suppose that they know, in cases where if they carry out their ideas +in action they will be losers rather than gainers? + +ALCIBIADES: What you say is very true. + +SOCRATES: Do you not see that I was really speaking the truth when I +affirmed that the possession of any other kind of knowledge was more +likely to injure than to benefit the possessor, unless he had also the +knowledge of the best? + +ALCIBIADES: I do now, if I did not before, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: The state or the soul, therefore, which wishes to have a +right existence must hold firmly to this knowledge, just as the sick +man clings to the physician, or the passenger depends for safety on the +pilot. And if the soul does not set sail until she have obtained this +she will be all the safer in the voyage through life. But when she +rushes in pursuit of wealth or bodily strength or anything else, not +having the knowledge of the best, so much the more is she likely to +meet with misfortune. And he who has the love of learning (Or, reading +polumatheian, 'abundant learning.'), and is skilful in many arts, and +does not possess the knowledge of the best, but is under some other +guidance, will make, as he deserves, a sorry voyage:--he will, I +believe, hurry through the brief space of human life, pilotless in +mid-ocean, and the words will apply to him in which the poet blamed his +enemy:-- + +'...Full many a thing he knew; But knew them all badly.' (A fragment +from the pseudo-Homeric poem, 'Margites.') + +ALCIBIADES: How in the world, Socrates, do the words of the poet apply +to him? They seem to me to have no bearing on the point whatever. + +SOCRATES: Quite the contrary, my sweet friend: only the poet is talking +in riddles after the fashion of his tribe. For all poetry has by nature +an enigmatical character, and it is by no means everybody who can +interpret it. And if, moreover, the spirit of poetry happen to seize on +a man who is of a begrudging temper and does not care to manifest his +wisdom but keeps it to himself as far as he can, it does indeed require +an almost superhuman wisdom to discover what the poet would be at. You +surely do not suppose that Homer, the wisest and most divine of poets, +was unaware of the impossibility of knowing a thing badly: for it was +no less a person than he who said of Margites that 'he knew many +things, but knew them all badly.' The solution of the riddle is this, I +imagine:--By 'badly' Homer meant 'bad' and 'knew' stands for 'to know.' +Put the words together;--the metre will suffer, but the poet's meaning +is clear;--'Margites knew all these things, but it was bad for him +to know them.' And, obviously, if it was bad for him to know so many +things, he must have been a good-for-nothing, unless the argument has +played us false. + +ALCIBIADES: But I do not think that it has, Socrates: at least, if the +argument is fallacious, it would be difficult for me to find another +which I could trust. + +SOCRATES: And you are right in thinking so. + +ALCIBIADES: Well, that is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: But tell me, by Heaven:--you must see now the nature and +greatness of the difficulty in which you, like others, have your part. +For you change about in all directions, and never come to rest anywhere: +what you once most strongly inclined to suppose, you put aside again and +quite alter your mind. If the God to whose shrine you are going should +appear at this moment, and ask before you made your prayer, 'Whether you +would desire to have one of the things which we mentioned at first, or +whether he should leave you to make your own request:'--what in +either case, think you, would be the best way to take advantage of the +opportunity? + +ALCIBIADES: Indeed, Socrates, I could not answer you without +consideration. It seems to me to be a wild thing (The Homeric word +margos is said to be here employed in allusion to the quotation from the +'Margites' which Socrates has just made; but it is not used in the +sense which it has in Homer.) to make such a request; a man must be very +careful lest he pray for evil under the idea that he is asking for good, +when shortly after he may have to recall his prayer, and, as you were +saying, demand the opposite of what he at first requested. + +SOCRATES: And was not the poet whose words I originally quoted wiser +than we are, when he bade us (pray God) to defend us from evil even +though we asked for it? + +ALCIBIADES: I believe that you are right. + +SOCRATES: The Lacedaemonians, too, whether from admiration of the poet +or because they have discovered the idea for themselves, are wont to +offer the prayer alike in public and private, that the Gods will give +unto them the beautiful as well as the good:--no one is likely to hear +them make any further petition. And yet up to the present time they have +not been less fortunate than other men; or if they have sometimes met +with misfortune, the fault has not been due to their prayer. For surely, +as I conceive, the Gods have power either to grant our requests, or to +send us the contrary of what we ask. + +And now I will relate to you a story which I have heard from certain of +our elders. It chanced that when the Athenians and Lacedaemonians were +at war, our city lost every battle by land and sea and never gained a +victory. The Athenians being annoyed and perplexed how to find a remedy +for their troubles, decided to send and enquire at the shrine of Ammon. +Their envoys were also to ask, 'Why the Gods always granted the victory +to the Lacedaemonians?' 'We,' (they were to say,) 'offer them more and +finer sacrifices than any other Hellenic state, and adorn their temples +with gifts, as nobody else does; moreover, we make the most solemn and +costly processions to them every year, and spend more money in their +service than all the rest of the Hellenes put together. But the +Lacedaemonians take no thought of such matters, and pay so little +respect to the Gods that they have a habit of sacrificing blemished +animals to them, and in various ways are less zealous than we are, +although their wealth is quite equal to ours.' When they had thus +spoken, and had made their request to know what remedy they could +find against the evils which troubled them, the prophet made no direct +answer,--clearly because he was not allowed by the God to do so;--but he +summoned them to him and said: 'Thus saith Ammon to the Athenians: "The +silent worship of the Lacedaemonians pleaseth me better than all the +offerings of the other Hellenes."' Such were the words of the God, and +nothing more. He seems to have meant by 'silent worship' the prayer +of the Lacedaemonians, which is indeed widely different from the usual +requests of the Hellenes. For they either bring to the altar bulls with +gilded horns or make offerings to the Gods, and beg at random for what +they need, good or bad. When, therefore, the Gods hear them using words +of ill omen they reject these costly processions and sacrifices of +theirs. And we ought, I think, to be very careful and consider well what +we should say and what leave unsaid. Homer, too, will furnish us +with similar stories. For he tells us how the Trojans in making their +encampment, + +'Offered up whole hecatombs to the immortals,' + +and how the 'sweet savour' was borne 'to the heavens by the winds; + + 'But the blessed Gods were averse and received it not. + For exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium, + Both Priam and the people of the spear-skilled king.' + +So that it was in vain for them to sacrifice and offer gifts, seeing +that they were hateful to the Gods, who are not, like vile usurers, to +be gained over by bribes. And it is foolish for us to boast that we are +superior to the Lacedaemonians by reason of our much worship. The idea +is inconceivable that the Gods have regard, not to the justice and +purity of our souls, but to costly processions and sacrifices, which men +may celebrate year after year, although they have committed innumerable +crimes against the Gods or against their fellow-men or the state. For +the Gods, as Ammon and his prophet declare, are no receivers of gifts, +and they scorn such unworthy service. Wherefore also it would seem that +wisdom and justice are especially honoured both by the Gods and by men +of sense; and they are the wisest and most just who know how to speak +and act towards Gods and men. But I should like to hear what your +opinion is about these matters. + +ALCIBIADES: I agree, Socrates, with you and with the God, whom, indeed, +it would be unbecoming for me to oppose. + +SOCRATES: Do you not remember saying that you were in great perplexity, +lest perchance you should ask for evil, supposing that you were asking +for good? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: You see, then, that there is a risk in your approaching the +God in prayer, lest haply he should refuse your sacrifice when he hears +the blasphemy which you utter, and make you partake of other evils +as well. The wisest plan, therefore, seems to me that you should keep +silence; for your 'highmindedness'--to use the mildest term which men +apply to folly--will most likely prevent you from using the prayer of +the Lacedaemonians. You had better wait until we find out how we should +behave towards the Gods and towards men. + +ALCIBIADES: And how long must I wait, Socrates, and who will be my +teacher? I should be very glad to see the man. + +SOCRATES: It is he who takes an especial interest in you. But first of +all, I think, the darkness must be taken away in which your soul is now +enveloped, just as Athene in Homer removes the mist from the eyes of +Diomede that + +'He may distinguish between God and mortal man.' + +Afterwards the means may be given to you whereby you may distinguish +between good and evil. At present, I fear, this is beyond your power. + +ALCIBIADES: Only let my instructor take away the impediment, whether it +pleases him to call it mist or anything else! I care not who he is; but +I am resolved to disobey none of his commands, if I am likely to be the +better for them. + +SOCRATES: And surely he has a wondrous care for you. + +ALCIBIADES: It seems to be altogether advisable to put off the sacrifice +until he is found. + +SOCRATES: You are right: that will be safer than running such a +tremendous risk. + +ALCIBIADES: But how shall we manage, Socrates?--At any rate I will set +this crown of mine upon your head, as you have given me such excellent +advice, and to the Gods we will offer crowns and perform the other +customary rites when I see that day approaching: nor will it be long +hence, if they so will. + +SOCRATES: I accept your gift, and shall be ready and willing to receive +whatever else you may proffer. Euripides makes Creon say in the play, +when he beholds Teiresias with his crown and hears that he has gained it +by his skill as the first-fruits of the spoil:-- + +'An auspicious omen I deem thy victor's wreath: For well thou knowest +that wave and storm oppress us.' + +And so I count your gift to be a token of good-fortune; for I am in no +less stress than Creon, and would fain carry off the victory over your +lovers. + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Alcibiades II, by An Imitator of Plato + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ALCIBIADES II *** + +***** This file should be named 1677.txt or 1677.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + http://www.gutenberg.org/1/6/7/1677/ + +Produced by Sue Asscher + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. 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FOR PUBLIC DOMAIN ETEXTS*Ver.04.29.93*END* + + + + + +This etext was prepared by Sue Asscher <asschers@aia.net.au> + + + + + +ALCIBIADES II + +by Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II) + + + + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + + + +APPENDIX II. + +The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not +mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim to be +ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be assigned +probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when his writings +were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit considerable +originality, and are remarkable for containing several thoughts of the sort +which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient, and which therefore have +a peculiar interest for us. The Second Alcibiades shows that the +difficulties about prayer which have perplexed Christian theologians were +not unknown among the followers of Plato. The Eryxias was doubted by the +ancients themselves: yet it may claim the distinction of being, among all +Greek or Roman writings, the one which anticipates in the most striking +manner the modern science of political economy and gives an abstract form +to some of its principal doctrines. + +For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend and +secretary, Mr. Knight. + +That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a +genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, and +was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is poor and +weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and there is a +certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which is very un- +Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the poets:--the remark +that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is uncommonly difficult to +understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of Homer, are entirely in the +spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The characters are ill- +drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and preaches too much, while +Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There are traces of Stoic +influence in the general tone and phraseology of the Dialogue (compare opos +melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and the writer seems to +have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato (compare Laws). An incident +from the Symposium is rather clumsily introduced, and two somewhat +hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference to the death of +Archelaus as having occurred 'quite lately' is only a fiction, probably +suggested by the Gorgias, where the story of Archelaus is told, and a +similar phrase occurs;--ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. +There are several passages which are either corrupt or extremely ill- +expressed. But there is a modern interest in the subject of the dialogue; +and it is a good example of a short spurious work, which may be attributed +to the second or third century before Christ. + + +ALCIBIADES II + +by + +Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II above) + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + +PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates and Alcibiades. + + +SOCRATES: Are you going, Alcibiades, to offer prayer to Zeus? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, I am. + +SOCRATES: you seem to be troubled and to cast your eyes on the ground, as +though you were thinking about something. + +ALCIBIADES: Of what do you suppose that I am thinking? + +SOCRATES: Of the greatest of all things, as I believe. Tell me, do you +not suppose that the Gods sometimes partly grant and partly reject the +requests which we make in public and private, and favour some persons and +not others? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: Do you not imagine, then, that a man ought to be very careful, +lest perchance without knowing it he implore great evils for himself, +deeming that he is asking for good, especially if the Gods are in the mood +to grant whatever he may request? There is the story of Oedipus, for +instance, who prayed that his children might divide their inheritance +between them by the sword: he did not, as he might have done, beg that his +present evils might be averted, but called down new ones. And was not his +prayer accomplished, and did not many and terrible evils thence arise, upon +which I need not dilate? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates, but you are speaking of a madman: surely you +do not think that any one in his senses would venture to make such a +prayer? + +SOCRATES: Madness, then, you consider to be the opposite of discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: Of course. + +SOCRATES: And some men seem to you to be discreet, and others the +contrary? + +ALCIBIADES: They do. + +SOCRATES: Well, then, let us discuss who these are. We acknowledge that +some are discreet, some foolish, and that some are mad? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And again, there are some who are in health? + +ALCIBIADES: There are. + +SOCRATES: While others are ailing? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And they are not the same? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor are there any who are in neither state? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: A man must either be sick or be well? + +ALCIBIADES: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: Very good: and do you think the same about discretion and want +of discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? + +SOCRATES: Do you believe that a man must be either in or out of his +senses; or is there some third or intermediate condition, in which he is +neither one nor the other? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. + +SOCRATES: He must be either sane or insane? + +ALCIBIADES: So I suppose. + +SOCRATES: Did you not acknowledge that madness was the opposite of +discretion? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And that there is no third or middle term between discretion and +indiscretion? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: And there cannot be two opposites to one thing? + +ALCIBIADES: There cannot. + +SOCRATES: Then madness and want of sense are the same? + +ALCIBIADES: That appears to be the case. + +SOCRATES: We shall be in the right, therefore, Alcibiades, if we say that +all who are senseless are mad. For example, if among persons of your own +age or older than yourself there are some who are senseless,--as there +certainly are,--they are mad. For tell me, by heaven, do you not think +that in the city the wise are few, while the foolish, whom you call mad, +are many? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: But how could we live in safety with so many crazy people? +Should we not long since have paid the penalty at their hands, and have +been struck and beaten and endured every other form of ill-usage which +madmen are wont to inflict? Consider, my dear friend: may it not be quite +otherwise? + +ALCIBIADES: Why, Socrates, how is that possible? I must have been +mistaken. + +SOCRATES: So it seems to me. But perhaps we may consider the matter +thus:-- + +ALCIBIADES: How? + +SOCRATES: I will tell you. We think that some are sick; do we not? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And must every sick person either have the gout, or be in a +fever, or suffer from ophthalmia? Or do you believe that a man may labour +under some other disease, even although he has none of these complaints? +Surely, they are not the only maladies which exist? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And is every kind of ophthalmia a disease? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And every disease ophthalmia? + +ALCIBIADES: Surely not. But I scarcely understand what I mean myself. + +SOCRATES: Perhaps, if you give me your best attention, 'two of us' looking +together, we may find what we seek. + +ALCIBIADES: I am attending, Socrates, to the best of my power. + +SOCRATES: We are agreed, then, that every form of ophthalmia is a disease, +but not every disease ophthalmia? + +ALCIBIADES: We are. + +SOCRATES: And so far we seem to be right. For every one who suffers from +a fever is sick; but the sick, I conceive, do not all have fever or gout or +ophthalmia, although each of these is a disease, which, according to those +whom we call physicians, may require a different treatment. They are not +all alike, nor do they produce the same result, but each has its own +effect, and yet they are all diseases. May we not take an illustration +from the artizans? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: There are cobblers and carpenters and sculptors and others of +all sorts and kinds, whom we need not stop to enumerate. All have their +distinct employments and all are workmen, although they are not all of them +cobblers or carpenters or sculptors. + +ALCIBIADES: No, indeed. + +SOCRATES: And in like manner men differ in regard to want of sense. Those +who are most out of their wits we call 'madmen,' while we term those who +are less far gone 'stupid' or 'idiotic,' or, if we prefer gentler language, +describe them as 'romantic' or 'simple-minded,' or, again, as 'innocent' or +'inexperienced' or 'foolish.' You may even find other names, if you seek +for them; but by all of them lack of sense is intended. They only differ +as one art appeared to us to differ from another or one disease from +another. Or what is your opinion? + +ALCIBIADES: I agree with you. + +SOCRATES: Then let us return to the point at which we digressed. We said +at first that we should have to consider who were the wise and who the +foolish. For we acknowledged that there are these two classes? Did we +not? + +ALCIBIADES: To be sure. + +SOCRATES: And you regard those as sensible who know what ought to be done +or said? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The senseless are those who do not know this? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: The latter will say or do what they ought not without their own +knowledge? + +ALCIBIADES: Exactly. + +SOCRATES: Oedipus, as I was saying, Alcibiades, was a person of this sort. +And even now-a-days you will find many who (have offered inauspicious +prayers), although, unlike him, they were not in anger nor thought that +they were asking evil. He neither sought, nor supposed that he sought for +good, but others have had quite the contrary notion. I believe that if the +God whom you are about to consult should appear to you, and, in +anticipation of your request, enquired whether you would be contented to +become tyrant of Athens, and if this seemed in your eyes a small and mean +thing, should add to it the dominion of all Hellas; and seeing that even +then you would not be satisfied unless you were ruler of the whole of +Europe, should promise, not only that, but, if you so desired, should +proclaim to all mankind in one and the same day that Alcibiades, son of +Cleinias, was tyrant:--in such a case, I imagine, you would depart full of +joy, as one who had obtained the greatest of goods. + +ALCIBIADES: And not only I, Socrates, but any one else who should meet +with such luck. + +SOCRATES: Yet you would not accept the dominion and lordship of all the +Hellenes and all the barbarians in exchange for your life? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not: for then what use could I make of them? + +SOCRATES: And would you accept them if you were likely to use them to a +bad and mischievous end? + +ALCIBIADES: I would not. + +SOCRATES: You see that it is not safe for a man either rashly to accept +whatever is offered him, or himself to request a thing, if he is likely to +suffer thereby or immediately to lose his life. And yet we could tell of +many who, having long desired and diligently laboured to obtain a tyranny, +thinking that thus they would procure an advantage, have nevertheless +fallen victims to designing enemies. You must have heard of what happened +only the other day, how Archelaus of Macedonia was slain by his beloved +(compare Aristotle, Pol.), whose love for the tyranny was not less than +that of Archelaus for him. The tyrannicide expected by his crime to become +tyrant and afterwards to have a happy life; but when he had held the +tyranny three or four days, he was in his turn conspired against and slain. +Or look at certain of our own citizens,--and of their actions we have been +not hearers, but eyewitnesses,--who have desired to obtain military +command: of those who have gained their object, some are even to this day +exiles from the city, while others have lost their lives. And even they +who seem to have fared best, have not only gone through many perils and +terrors during their office, but after their return home they have been +beset by informers worse than they once were by their foes, insomuch that +several of them have wished that they had remained in a private station +rather than have had the glories of command. If, indeed, such perils and +terrors were of profit to the commonwealth, there would be reason in +undergoing them; but the very contrary is the case. Again, you will find +persons who have prayed for offspring, and when their prayers were heard, +have fallen into the greatest pains and sufferings. For some have begotten +children who were utterly bad, and have therefore passed all their days in +misery, while the parents of good children have undergone the misfortune of +losing them, and have been so little happier than the others that they +would have preferred never to have had children rather than to have had +them and lost them. And yet, although these and the like examples are +manifest and known of all, it is rare to find any one who has refused what +has been offered him, or, if he were likely to gain aught by prayer, has +refrained from making his petition. The mass of mankind would not decline +to accept a tyranny, or the command of an army, or any of the numerous +things which cause more harm than good: but rather, if they had them not, +would have prayed to obtain them. And often in a short space of time they +change their tone, and wish their old prayers unsaid. Wherefore also I +suspect that men are entirely wrong when they blame the gods as the authors +of the ills which befall them (compare Republic): 'their own presumption,' +or folly (whichever is the right word)-- + +'Has brought these unmeasured woes upon them.' (Homer. Odyss.) + +He must have been a wise poet, Alcibiades, who, seeing as I believe, his +friends foolishly praying for and doing things which would not really +profit them, offered up a common prayer in behalf of them all:-- + +'King Zeus, grant us good whether prayed for or unsought by us; +But that which we ask amiss, do thou avert.' (The author of these lines, +which are probably of Pythagorean origin, is unknown. They are found also +in the Anthology (Anth. Pal.).) + +In my opinion, I say, the poet spoke both well and prudently; but if you +have anything to say in answer to him, speak out. + +ALCIBIADES: It is difficult, Socrates, to oppose what has been well said. +And I perceive how many are the ills of which ignorance is the cause, +since, as would appear, through ignorance we not only do, but what is +worse, pray for the greatest evils. No man would imagine that he would do +so; he would rather suppose that he was quite capable of praying for what +was best: to call down evils seems more like a curse than a prayer. + +SOCRATES: But perhaps, my good friend, some one who is wiser than either +you or I will say that we have no right to blame ignorance thus rashly, +unless we can add what ignorance we mean and of what, and also to whom and +how it is respectively a good or an evil? + +ALCIBIADES: How do you mean? Can ignorance possibly be better than +knowledge for any person in any conceivable case? + +SOCRATES: So I believe:--you do not think so? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And yet surely I may not suppose that you would ever wish to act +towards your mother as they say that Orestes and Alcmeon and others have +done towards their parent. + +ALCIBIADES: Good words, Socrates, prithee. + +SOCRATES: You ought not to bid him use auspicious words, who says that you +would not be willing to commit so horrible a deed, but rather him who +affirms the contrary, if the act appear to you unfit even to be mentioned. +Or do you think that Orestes, had he been in his senses and knew what was +best for him to do, would ever have dared to venture on such a crime? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor would any one else, I fancy? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: That ignorance is bad then, it would appear, which is of the +best and does not know what is best? + +ALCIBIADES: So I think, at least. + +SOCRATES: And both to the person who is ignorant and everybody else? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Let us take another case. Suppose that you were suddenly to get +into your head that it would be a good thing to kill Pericles, your kinsman +and guardian, and were to seize a sword and, going to the doors of his +house, were to enquire if he were at home, meaning to slay only him and no +one else:--the servants reply, 'Yes': (Mind, I do not mean that you would +really do such a thing; but there is nothing, you think, to prevent a man +who is ignorant of the best, having occasionally the whim that what is +worst is best? + +ALCIBIADES: No.) + +SOCRATES:--If, then, you went indoors, and seeing him, did not know him, +but thought that he was some one else, would you venture to slay him? + +ALCIBIADES: Most decidedly not (it seems to me). (These words are omitted +in several MSS.) + +SOCRATES: For you designed to kill, not the first who offered, but +Pericles himself? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And if you made many attempts, and each time failed to recognize +Pericles, you would never attack him? + +ALCIBIADES: Never. + +SOCRATES: Well, but if Orestes in like manner had not known his mother, do +you think that he would ever have laid hands upon her? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: He did not intend to slay the first woman he came across, nor +any one else's mother, but only his own? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: Ignorance, then, is better for those who are in such a frame of +mind, and have such ideas? + +ALCIBIADES: Obviously. + +SOCRATES: You acknowledge that for some persons in certain cases the +ignorance of some things is a good and not an evil, as you formerly +supposed? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: And there is still another case which will also perhaps appear +strange to you, if you will consider it? (The reading is here uncertain.) + +ALCIBIADES: What is that, Socrates? + +SOCRATES: It may be, in short, that the possession of all the sciences, if +unaccompanied by the knowledge of the best, will more often than not injure +the possessor. Consider the matter thus:--Must we not, when we intend +either to do or say anything, suppose that we know or ought to know that +which we propose so confidently to do or say? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes, in my opinion. + +SOCRATES: We may take the orators for an example, who from time to time +advise us about war and peace, or the building of walls and the +construction of harbours, whether they understand the business in hand, or +only think that they do. Whatever the city, in a word, does to another +city, or in the management of her own affairs, all happens by the counsel +of the orators. + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: But now see what follows, if I can (make it clear to you). +(Some words appear to have dropped out here.) You would distinguish the +wise from the foolish? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The many are foolish, the few wise? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And you use both the terms, 'wise' and 'foolish,' in reference +to something? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: Would you call a person wise who can give advice, but does not +know whether or when it is better to carry out the advice? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly not. + +SOCRATES: Nor again, I suppose, a person who knows the art of war, but +does not know whether it is better to go to war or for how long? + +ALCIBIADES: No. + +SOCRATES: Nor, once more, a person who knows how to kill another or to +take away his property or to drive him from his native land, but not when +it is better to do so or for whom it is better? + +ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: But he who understands anything of the kind and has at the same +time the knowledge of the best course of action:--and the best and the +useful are surely the same?-- + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES:--Such an one, I say, we should call wise and a useful adviser +both of himself and of the city. What do you think? + +ALCIBIADES: I agree. + +SOCRATES: And if any one knows how to ride or to shoot with the bow or to +box or to wrestle, or to engage in any other sort of contest or to do +anything whatever which is in the nature of an art,--what do you call him +who knows what is best according to that art? Do you not speak of one who +knows what is best in riding as a good rider? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And in a similar way you speak of a good boxer or a good flute- +player or a good performer in any other art? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: But is it necessary that the man who is clever in any of these +arts should be wise also in general? Or is there a difference between the +clever artist and the wise man? + +ALCIBIADES: All the difference in the world. + +SOCRATES: And what sort of a state do you think that would be which was +composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes and masters in +other arts, and besides them of those others about whom we spoke, who knew +how to go to war and how to kill, as well as of orators puffed up with +political pride, but in which not one of them all had this knowledge of the +best, and there was no one who could tell when it was better to apply any +of these arts or in regard to whom? + +ALCIBIADES: I should call such a state bad, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: You certainly would when you saw each of them rivalling the +other and esteeming that of the greatest importance in the state, + +'Wherein he himself most excelled.' (Euripides, Antiope.) + +--I mean that which was best in any art, while he was entirely ignorant of +what was best for himself and for the state, because, as I think, he trusts +to opinion which is devoid of intelligence. In such a case should we not +be right if we said that the state would be full of anarchy and +lawlessness? + +ALCIBIADES: Decidedly. + +SOCRATES: But ought we not then, think you, either to fancy that we know +or really to know, what we confidently propose to do or say? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And if a person does that which he knows or supposes that he +knows, and the result is beneficial, he will act advantageously both for +himself and for the state? + +ALCIBIADES: True. + +SOCRATES: And if he do the contrary, both he and the state will suffer? + +ALCIBIADES: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Well, and are you of the same mind, as before? + +ALCIBIADES: I am. + +SOCRATES: But were you not saying that you would call the many unwise and +the few wise? + +ALCIBIADES: I was. + +SOCRATES: And have we not come back to our old assertion that the many +fail to obtain the best because they trust to opinion which is devoid of +intelligence? + +ALCIBIADES: That is the case. + +SOCRATES: It is good, then, for the many, if they particularly desire to +do that which they know or suppose that they know, neither to know nor to +suppose that they know, in cases where if they carry out their ideas in +action they will be losers rather than gainers? + +ALCIBIADES: What you say is very true. + +SOCRATES: Do you not see that I was really speaking the truth when I +affirmed that the possession of any other kind of knowledge was more likely +to injure than to benefit the possessor, unless he had also the knowledge +of the best? + +ALCIBIADES: I do now, if I did not before, Socrates. + +SOCRATES: The state or the soul, therefore, which wishes to have a right +existence must hold firmly to this knowledge, just as the sick man clings +to the physician, or the passenger depends for safety on the pilot. And if +the soul does not set sail until she have obtained this she will be all the +safer in the voyage through life. But when she rushes in pursuit of wealth +or bodily strength or anything else, not having the knowledge of the best, +so much the more is she likely to meet with misfortune. And he who has the +love of learning (Or, reading polumatheian, 'abundant learning.'), and is +skilful in many arts, and does not possess the knowledge of the best, but +is under some other guidance, will make, as he deserves, a sorry voyage:-- +he will, I believe, hurry through the brief space of human life, pilotless +in mid-ocean, and the words will apply to him in which the poet blamed his +enemy:-- + +'...Full many a thing he knew; +But knew them all badly.' (A fragment from the pseudo-Homeric poem, +'Margites.') + +ALCIBIADES: How in the world, Socrates, do the words of the poet apply to +him? They seem to me to have no bearing on the point whatever. + +SOCRATES: Quite the contrary, my sweet friend: only the poet is talking +in riddles after the fashion of his tribe. For all poetry has by nature an +enigmatical character, and it is by no means everybody who can interpret +it. And if, moreover, the spirit of poetry happen to seize on a man who is +of a begrudging temper and does not care to manifest his wisdom but keeps +it to himself as far as he can, it does indeed require an almost superhuman +wisdom to discover what the poet would be at. You surely do not suppose +that Homer, the wisest and most divine of poets, was unaware of the +impossibility of knowing a thing badly: for it was no less a person than +he who said of Margites that 'he knew many things, but knew them all +badly.' The solution of the riddle is this, I imagine:--By 'badly' Homer +meant 'bad' and 'knew' stands for 'to know.' Put the words together;--the +metre will suffer, but the poet's meaning is clear;--'Margites knew all +these things, but it was bad for him to know them.' And, obviously, if it +was bad for him to know so many things, he must have been a good-for- +nothing, unless the argument has played us false. + +ALCIBIADES: But I do not think that it has, Socrates: at least, if the +argument is fallacious, it would be difficult for me to find another which +I could trust. + +SOCRATES: And you are right in thinking so. + +ALCIBIADES: Well, that is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: But tell me, by Heaven:--you must see now the nature and +greatness of the difficulty in which you, like others, have your part. For +you change about in all directions, and never come to rest anywhere: what +you once most strongly inclined to suppose, you put aside again and quite +alter your mind. If the God to whose shrine you are going should appear at +this moment, and ask before you made your prayer, 'Whether you would desire +to have one of the things which we mentioned at first, or whether he should +leave you to make your own request:'--what in either case, think you, would +be the best way to take advantage of the opportunity? + +ALCIBIADES: Indeed, Socrates, I could not answer you without +consideration. It seems to me to be a wild thing (The Homeric word margos +is said to be here employed in allusion to the quotation from the +'Margites' which Socrates has just made; but it is not used in the sense +which it has in Homer.) to make such a request; a man must be very careful +lest he pray for evil under the idea that he is asking for good, when +shortly after he may have to recall his prayer, and, as you were saying, +demand the opposite of what he at first requested. + +SOCRATES: And was not the poet whose words I originally quoted wiser than +we are, when he bade us (pray God) to defend us from evil even though we +asked for it? + +ALCIBIADES: I believe that you are right. + +SOCRATES: The Lacedaemonians, too, whether from admiration of the poet or +because they have discovered the idea for themselves, are wont to offer the +prayer alike in public and private, that the Gods will give unto them the +beautiful as well as the good:--no one is likely to hear them make any +further petition. And yet up to the present time they have not been less +fortunate than other men; or if they have sometimes met with misfortune, +the fault has not been due to their prayer. For surely, as I conceive, the +Gods have power either to grant our requests, or to send us the contrary of +what we ask. + +And now I will relate to you a story which I have heard from certain of our +elders. It chanced that when the Athenians and Lacedaemonians were at war, +our city lost every battle by land and sea and never gained a victory. The +Athenians being annoyed and perplexed how to find a remedy for their +troubles, decided to send and enquire at the shrine of Ammon. Their envoys +were also to ask, 'Why the Gods always granted the victory to the +Lacedaemonians?' 'We,' (they were to say,) 'offer them more and finer +sacrifices than any other Hellenic state, and adorn their temples with +gifts, as nobody else does; moreover, we make the most solemn and costly +processions to them every year, and spend more money in their service than +all the rest of the Hellenes put together. But the Lacedaemonians take no +thought of such matters, and pay so little respect to the Gods that they +have a habit of sacrificing blemished animals to them, and in various ways +are less zealous than we are, although their wealth is quite equal to +ours.' When they had thus spoken, and had made their request to know what +remedy they could find against the evils which troubled them, the prophet +made no direct answer,--clearly because he was not allowed by the God to do +so;--but he summoned them to him and said: 'Thus saith Ammon to the +Athenians: "The silent worship of the Lacedaemonians pleaseth me better +than all the offerings of the other Hellenes."' Such were the words of the +God, and nothing more. He seems to have meant by 'silent worship' the +prayer of the Lacedaemonians, which is indeed widely different from the +usual requests of the Hellenes. For they either bring to the altar bulls +with gilded horns or make offerings to the Gods, and beg at random for what +they need, good or bad. When, therefore, the Gods hear them using words of +ill omen they reject these costly processions and sacrifices of theirs. +And we ought, I think, to be very careful and consider well what we should +say and what leave unsaid. Homer, too, will furnish us with similar +stories. For he tells us how the Trojans in making their encampment, + +'Offered up whole hecatombs to the immortals,' + +and how the 'sweet savour' was borne 'to the heavens by the winds; + +'But the blessed Gods were averse and received it not. +For exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium, +Both Priam and the people of the spear-skilled king.' + +So that it was in vain for them to sacrifice and offer gifts, seeing that +they were hateful to the Gods, who are not, like vile usurers, to be gained +over by bribes. And it is foolish for us to boast that we are superior to +the Lacedaemonians by reason of our much worship. The idea is +inconceivable that the Gods have regard, not to the justice and purity of +our souls, but to costly processions and sacrifices, which men may +celebrate year after year, although they have committed innumerable crimes +against the Gods or against their fellow-men or the state. For the Gods, +as Ammon and his prophet declare, are no receivers of gifts, and they scorn +such unworthy service. Wherefore also it would seem that wisdom and +justice are especially honoured both by the Gods and by men of sense; and +they are the wisest and most just who know how to speak and act towards +Gods and men. But I should like to hear what your opinion is about these +matters. + +ALCIBIADES: I agree, Socrates, with you and with the God, whom, indeed, it +would be unbecoming for me to oppose. + +SOCRATES: Do you not remember saying that you were in great perplexity, +lest perchance you should ask for evil, supposing that you were asking for +good? + +ALCIBIADES: I do. + +SOCRATES: You see, then, that there is a risk in your approaching the God +in prayer, lest haply he should refuse your sacrifice when he hears the +blasphemy which you utter, and make you partake of other evils as well. +The wisest plan, therefore, seems to me that you should keep silence; for +your 'highmindedness'--to use the mildest term which men apply to folly-- +will most likely prevent you from using the prayer of the Lacedaemonians. +You had better wait until we find out how we should behave towards the Gods +and towards men. + +ALCIBIADES: And how long must I wait, Socrates, and who will be my +teacher? I should be very glad to see the man. + +SOCRATES: It is he who takes an especial interest in you. But first of +all, I think, the darkness must be taken away in which your soul is now +enveloped, just as Athene in Homer removes the mist from the eyes of +Diomede that + +'He may distinguish between God and mortal man.' + +Afterwards the means may be given to you whereby you may distinguish +between good and evil. At present, I fear, this is beyond your power. + +ALCIBIADES: Only let my instructor take away the impediment, whether it +pleases him to call it mist or anything else! I care not who he is; but I +am resolved to disobey none of his commands, if I am likely to be the +better for them. + +SOCRATES: And surely he has a wondrous care for you. + +ALCIBIADES: It seems to be altogether advisable to put off the sacrifice +until he is found. + +SOCRATES: You are right: that will be safer than running such a +tremendous risk. + +ALCIBIADES: But how shall we manage, Socrates?--At any rate I will set +this crown of mine upon your head, as you have given me such excellent +advice, and to the Gods we will offer crowns and perform the other +customary rites when I see that day approaching: nor will it be long +hence, if they so will. + +SOCRATES: I accept your gift, and shall be ready and willing to receive +whatever else you may proffer. Euripides makes Creon say in the play, when +he beholds Teiresias with his crown and hears that he has gained it by his +skill as the first-fruits of the spoil:-- + +'An auspicious omen I deem thy victor's wreath: +For well thou knowest that wave and storm oppress us.' + +And so I count your gift to be a token of good-fortune; for I am in no less +stress than Creon, and would fain carry off the victory over your lovers. + + + + + +End of this Project Gutenberg Etext of Alcibiades II by Platonic Imitator + diff --git a/old/2lcbd10.zip b/old/2lcbd10.zip Binary files differnew file mode 100644 index 0000000..8e09142 --- /dev/null +++ b/old/2lcbd10.zip |